Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: SteveH on October 19, 2017, 10:54:45 AM

Title: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on October 19, 2017, 10:54:45 AM
I think it is time they had thier own thread.....

.Kingdom Services enforcement officers have been accused of cashing in on Storm Ophelia.
Onlookers in Llandudno said they saw the woman given a fine for littering - after a tissue she was using was blown out of her hand.

A witness, who did not want to be named, said he believed the woman was a tourist and that the hanky was whisked from her grasp by the high winds that had reached up to 80mph.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/kingdom-fine-woman-storm-ophelia-13779721 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/kingdom-fine-woman-storm-ophelia-13779721)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Mike on October 19, 2017, 07:13:09 PM
Maybe they should follow the recycling team instead. Lots of litter there each time they come I end up picking up the stuff that's fallen on the ground and not been picked up, and stacking what's left of the bashed about trolley boxes which have just been dumped.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on November 08, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
This is interesting, as I understand it KS never film an offence, but only switch the body cam on for the ticketing process.

Judge clears grandmother fined for dropping cigarette butt.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/judge-clears-grandmother-fined-dropping-13875900 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/judge-clears-grandmother-fined-dropping-13875900)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Bosun on November 08, 2017, 10:45:47 PM
Some interesting enforcement techniques unveiled.

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/home/2017/11/08/gallery/ex-employee-reveals-bizarre-practices-employed-by-kingdom-services-99284/ (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/home/2017/11/08/gallery/ex-employee-reveals-bizarre-practices-employed-by-kingdom-services-99284/)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on December 06, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
A controversial security firm has been “nothing but trouble” at a North Wales retail park, where they were sent by the council without the permission of the landowner, says the manager.

Alan Barker, one of the bosses at Llandudno’s Mostyn Champneys, said there was no need for officers from Kingdom to visit the retail park as it has its own cleaners.
But he said the St Helens-based firm was instructed by Conwy council to issue litter fines at Mostyn Champneys, despite no consent being given by the park’s owners.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/controversial-security-firm-nothing-trouble-13999133 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/controversial-security-firm-nothing-trouble-13999133)

Comments......
Personally I don't believe that the enforcement officers should patrol retail parks but the problem is that, especially at this time of year, litter doesn't stay in the location it gets dropped.  If someone drops a crisp packet outside Home Bargains or a burger wrapper outside McDonald's they aren't necessarily going to remain within the confines of the retail park for very long.  I'm also not convinced about the claim that the retail park has it's own cleaners because I must have been there hundreds of times over the years and I don't remember ever seeing anyone going around picking up litter.  Maybe the Daily Post could ask for evidence that these cleaners do actually exist rather than accepting everything they're told as being the truth?

“Most of the shops on Mostyn Champneys are discount stores so our shoppers probably can’t afford the £75 fine."  Seriously Mr Barker?  Could you please therefore explain how your shoppers are supposed to pay £85 fake fines to Parking Eye, a notorious bunch of scammers that YOU invited onto your retail park?  The message I'm getting is that you're more than happy for "your" shoppers to be scammed so long as you get a share of the loot and only find it unacceptable if there's nothing in it for you.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on December 06, 2017, 12:01:42 PM
Good comment here

""“Most of the shops on Mostyn Champneys are discount stores so our shoppers probably can’t afford the £75 fine."  Seriously Mr Barker?  Could you please therefore explain how your shoppers are supposed to pay £85 fake fines to Parking Eye, a notorious bunch of scammers that YOU invited onto your retail park?  The message I'm getting is that you're more than happy for "your" shoppers to be scammed so long as you get a share of the loot and only find it unacceptable if there's nothing in it for you."
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on December 09, 2017, 12:14:11 PM
Despite their methods KS seem to be getting stronger.....

This statement stood out in the article

These new Kingdom officers are clearly visible ”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/kingdom-police-anglesey-council-car-14013751 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/kingdom-police-anglesey-council-car-14013751)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on December 11, 2017, 12:33:03 PM
They've had a lot of stick for being 'undercover' not wearing uniforms etc and pouncing on people unsuspecting. So I think new rules state they must now wear a visible uniform. It stops them getting up to tricks like disguising themselves as a tree and hoping a passing dog will pee on them so they can then jump out and fine the owner. $good$
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on December 11, 2017, 12:34:48 PM
(https://cbsnews2.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2016/10/25/b1545138-a2bd-4e7e-abd5-1bb39b540672/thumbnail/620x350/c1a401a47a654e424ba1603cdd9568dc/tree.jpg)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on January 28, 2018, 10:52:00 AM
Council launch Kingdom probe after shopper wrongly hit with £75 fag butt fine
CCTV footage proved Susan Little put cigarette in bin now council chiefs investigate why she was still taken to court

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/council-launch-kingdom-probe-after-14211439 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/council-launch-kingdom-probe-after-14211439)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Ian on January 28, 2018, 11:38:18 AM
I'm surprised no one has yet sued them for distress, loss of earnings, reputation damage and more.  Easy money in her case, I'd have thought.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on January 29, 2018, 12:34:18 PM
The business model idea is flawed and the councils must know that. If these fines really were a deterrent then it stands to reason that after being in operation (very publicly) for some time that the number of fines should start to fall and continue falling until it has reduced dramatically and it flatlines.  As Kingdom are only financed by the fines their profit should be heftily decreasing year on year.

It isn't.

That means that either

A) It isn't a deterrent - so they might as well not be there

B) It is a deterrent and litter dropping/dog fouling is falling but to keep up with their targets they have to be more "adventurous" with the fines they impose.

Either way they are of no use to man nor beast.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on January 29, 2018, 02:24:37 PM
In a recent article they said approx 500 fines in Conwy County, the highest in Wales closely followed in second place by a county ? Who issued 38 fines...........  &shake&
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on February 06, 2018, 12:45:48 PM
A controversial security firm has been accused of going for “easy” targets after handing out 53 times more tickets for littering compared to dog fouling.

Data obtained by the Daily Post show from between October and December 2017, Kingdom Security slapped people with 1,180 littering fines compared to just 22 for dog mess across Wrexham.


The revelation has sparked accusations Kingdom Security is chasing “easy” targets dropping litter, rather than catching owners who fail to clean-up after their dogs.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/security-firm-dished-out-53-14249782 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/security-firm-dished-out-53-14249782)

Just found this....

Watch moment Kingdom enforcer given the boot by Tesco security
Man films moment litter warden believed to be attempting to ticket an elderly couple is told to leave Holyhead Tesco car park.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/watch-moment-kingdom-enforcer-given-14249917 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/watch-moment-kingdom-enforcer-given-14249917)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2018, 04:16:07 PM
Kingdom's Gwynedd Council contract has been scrapped 'by mutual agreement'
The local authority has said it will now use its own street team to enforce littering issues.

"A well-placed source said the firm had been beset by staffing problems and complaints from the public about “tactics”.

"It is also understood that although it was agreed Kingdom staff would be able to converse in Welsh, the majority of the staff which have now left could not speak the language."

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdoms-gwynedd-council-contract-shelved-14383864 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdoms-gwynedd-council-contract-shelved-14383864)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on March 21, 2018, 09:53:40 AM
Second North Wales council bins Kingdom Security in battle to tackle dog mess and fly-tipping
However, the authority will continue to use the St Helens-based firm to issue parking tickets until year-long trial ends in the winter.

Kingdom Security has attracted criticism for the alleged tactics its staff are said to use to issue fines of up to £75 to anyone seen littering in public.

Earlier this month, Gwynedd Council pulled the plug on its partnership with the St Helens-based firm just two days after its officers started patrolling the county’s streets.

Now Anglesey Council have announced that it will no longer continue with its 12-month trial after May 2018.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/second-north-wales-council-stop-14437832 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/second-north-wales-council-stop-14437832)

(The company Kingdom, which recorded profits of £9m last year, hands out fines for littering and dog fouling across Flintshire, Wrexham, Conwy, Denbighshire and Anglesey.)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on July 05, 2018, 10:53:53 AM
Kingdom contract extended so council can continue to make cash out of controversial litter enforcement fines
Conwy bucks the trend by giving the littering firm another 12 months as it fears a loss of revenue of around £200,000.

"Concern had been raised about the number of fines it hands out to people for dropping cigarette butts compared to other littering offences"

Glyn county councillor Chris Hughes supported the extension of the contract, saying that he had heard very few complaints about Kingdom.    ?   ?    ?

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-contract-extended-council-can-14867806 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-contract-extended-council-can-14867806)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on July 05, 2018, 12:29:38 PM
Revenue is of course 100% the reason.

Hmmmm I wonder should we give up our nice 200k profit and spend about another quarter of a million funding it ourselves, or shall we let the stasi carry on for another year?

 ??? bit of a no brainer.

The problem though is clear to see, these gangsters make more money if they fine more people, they'll lose money and even their job if they don't fine enough. Now the only evidence that they need to fine someone is their 'word' that they saw the culprit do it (they only start filming after the alleged offence has taken place)

So of course if they are running short of their targets they are going to "see" things that didn't happen.  >:(
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on July 05, 2018, 12:41:45 PM
If they were not allowed to issue tickets to smokers, and had to concentrate on dog fouling and litter, KS would give up the contract themselves. 
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: DVT on July 05, 2018, 10:10:40 PM
OK, so Council "lose" £200k by not employing Kingdom.  So, if they lose that much then the total amount of the fines must be a lot more ... which means a lot of visitors will be getting penalised, as locals generally know about it.

I wonder if Council has worked out the loss of revenue value to the town by losing these visitors - they make a big thing about how much the vistotis are worth to the town for such events as the Extravaganza, Armed Fores and Wales Rally GB ... so there must be a big loss of income by deterring visitirs from arriving in the first place.  Have any such figures been worked out?
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Ian on July 06, 2018, 08:14:49 AM
Very good points.  Over to a councillor or two for a response.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: mondie on July 06, 2018, 11:14:33 PM
As a newcomer to the area, I find the whole Kingdom thing hypocritical. The amount of litter that is produced by the ridiculous recycling system we have exceeds anything a few individuals create, Kingdom should be fining the council for their frankly piss poor recycling system. We live on a narrow, windy peninsula so plenty of it finds its way to either beach.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2018, 08:43:31 AM
Excellent points;  the only litter we see when we're out walking is from the recycling trucks.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: norman08 on July 07, 2018, 09:04:01 AM
We had a meeting with one of the bosses from ERF  He admitted the middle box was far too small But what can we do about it ,  Duh go back to the drawing board.  Looking at the state of the bins in town/ the prom would you put your hands near them ,on my travels when they empty the bins they spray clean them .
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Meleri on July 10, 2018, 04:24:31 PM
At the CCBC Cabinet meeting today they voted to renew the contract with Kingdom Security until the new financial year (end of March 2019). They are adding strict caveats that Kingdom employees do not go on private land (as they did at Zip World), also the officers must be more visible (so no hiding around ready to pounce)and they must cover a greater geographic spread and not just concentrate on prime areas (so patrol more rural areas with less rich pickings). In the meantime CCBC are setting up a Scrutiny Task & Finish Group to look into what needs to be done after the nine months are up. Such as a positive alternative to Kingdom possibly in house, which will include no targets for fines with a positive attitude to encourage visitors to bring their dogs on holiday and not scare them off. There was a bit of conflict between Councillors where Cllr Chris Hughes suggested Kingdom should follow the local bin lorries and see what a mess they are leaving and it had been reported to him bin men were taking black bags out of the bins and deliberately leaving them on the pavements which is in fact littering. Cllr Don Milne told him continually mentioning this fact was not being helpful. In all it will be interesting to see what they come up with.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on July 11, 2018, 09:58:57 AM
We did some litter picking on Conwy Morfa beach yesterday - got about 7 bin bags of rubbish, never seen any Kingdom officers down there, much more profitable to stand in Mostyn Street and make 70 quid every time someone throws a fag down
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on July 23, 2018, 01:19:50 PM
Quote from Meleri's post above.....  " They are adding strict caveats that Kingdom employees do not go on private land (as they did at Zip World), also the officers must be more visible (so no hiding around ready to pounce)and they must cover a greater geographic spread and not just concentrate on prime areas (so patrol more rural areas with less rich pickings)."

Controversial litter enforcement company, Kingdom is quitting Conwy .

The firm has given notice to the council that it does not want to extend its contract after August 9.
The firm, which hands out fines to litter bugs, has been at the centre of much controversy over its dealings with members of the public.
Concern had been raised about the number of fines it hands out and where staff from the company focus their attentions, with rural councillors saying the rules are rarely enforced in their wards.

Last week the council’s cabinet voted to offer to extend the contract beyond August until the end of the financial year in March.

But Kingdom has told the council it’s not interested and no longer wants to work in Conwy.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-gone-controversial-litter-enforcers-14941406 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-gone-controversial-litter-enforcers-14941406)[quote
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on July 23, 2018, 01:40:19 PM
 8)

Great news. It shows people power can work.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 23, 2018, 07:35:18 PM
Good riddance to them! 😁
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: born2run on July 24, 2018, 09:04:09 AM
I hope they close down the anti kingdom facebook page now, it really is not doing them any good. The people who run it and regularly contribute seem to have become obsessed to the point it's taking over their lives. They have also taken to directing slanderous and untrue comments at various Labour councillors.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on October 18, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
Since Kingdom went, I thought I was being a bit paranoid, did I see more dog muck around ?, there was definitely more dogs off their leads, I live in a quiet road and noticed dogs being leashed as they got nearer to the main road, a very dangerous habit.

Initially We agreed something needed done, but disagreed with Kingdoms methods, but maybe we needed the heavy handed approach and the publicity for it to be effective ?

Colwyn Bay resident says he would "welcome back Kingdom with open arms" after dog fouling gets out of hand
A Colwyn Bay residents has said he would "welcome back Kingdom with open arms" after dog fouling has begun to get out of hand in his neighbourhood.

Brackley Avenue resident Mike Roberts said he has found bags of dog muck all over the place in his street from on top of his hedge and hanging from trees to neighbours gardens.
He said: "I would welcome Kingdom back with open arms. Bring Kingdom here.

"We have dog muck in people's gardens, hanging from trees, no fewer than six bags lumped on the pavement and even dog muck not in bags on my drive.
"People are placing them all over the shop and my neighbours have brought it to the council's attention

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/16991241.colwyn-bay-resident-says-he-would-welcome-back-kingdom-with-open-arms-after-dog-fouling-gets-out-of-hand/ (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/16991241.colwyn-bay-resident-says-he-would-welcome-back-kingdom-with-open-arms-after-dog-fouling-gets-out-of-hand/)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on January 15, 2019, 03:13:44 PM
Kingdom, a deterrent or a money maker......................... ?   >:(

Conwy council has been left with a £200,000 black hole in its budget because its contract with a controversial enforcement firm came to an end.

"The council had been budgeting for having the extra income Kingdom generated for it. But when Kingdom ended the deal, County Hall bosses were faced with losing around £200,000 in revenue and is now facing an overspend of up to £170,000."

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/how-council-still-counting-cost-15680667 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/how-council-still-counting-cost-15680667)
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: DaveR on January 30, 2019, 10:26:52 AM
Ive noticed that there has been a significant increase in dog fouling since Kingdom Security ceased operating in Conwy. There is so much of it that its obvious that it isnt just the tiny minority of dog owners responsible.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on January 30, 2019, 11:34:23 AM
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Ive noticed that there has been a significant increase in dog fouling since Kingdom Security ceased operating in Conwy. There is so much of it that its obvious that it isnt just the tiny minority of dog owners responsible.

Agreed, I mentioned above about dogs off leads,  " I live in a quiet road and noticed dogs being leashed as they got nearer to the main road, a very dangerous habit."  now they do not bother, dogs crossing main roads, some out of sight of their owner, someone is going to get hurt, sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Ian on January 30, 2019, 01:49:20 PM
All of which begs the question: if dog owners are behaving irresponsibly, then do we need the likes of KS - with all their flaws - to make dog owners comply?
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: Hugo on January 30, 2019, 02:12:13 PM
Something does need to be done about irresponsible dog owners and if CCBC  is no longer using KS then they should be using its own staff to do the work that KS was supposed to be doing.
The trouble is that these dog owners are just sly people who let their dogs foul when no one else is about or is not looking in their direction
What's the point of making laws if they are not enforced and the same goes for those dog owners who do not micro chip their pets
Title: Re: Kingdom Security
Post by: SteveH on February 22, 2019, 04:23:54 PM
Kingdom enforcement squad replacement delayed
Councillors wants to look at what wider powers the new environmental patrols could be given.

At Wednesday’s economy and place scrutiny committee Cllr Greg Robbins said the group wanted more time to consider what other areas a new enforcement service could look at.

This could include giving officers the powers to hand out tickets for fly-tipping.

An extension would mean that the deadline for their report would have to be extended from April until June....... more https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-enforcement-squad-replacement-delayed-15872112 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-enforcement-squad-replacement-delayed-15872112)