Three Towns Forum
The Local => Times Past => Topic started by: DaveR on February 05, 2011, 07:01:17 pm
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Murders are something that are fairly infrequent in the local area (fortunately), however, there have been several high profile cases...and this is one from 1976 that I have always found fascinating.......I've often wondered what made Neil Rutherford snap that fateful evening.
"The night five died in quiet hotel"
A Penmaenmawr man stumbled upon the shooting that left five people dead at the Red Gables hotel on Friday 24th September 1976.
Just before 6pm, Mr. Will Williams, 41, arrived home to find a woman waving her arms in the road. Near her a man lay bleeding. Mr. Williams of St. Johns Park ran over to help the man. Then he smelled smoke and found the hotel was on fire. He told neighbours to phone the emergency services.
“I ran over and took the man's pulse. It was very weak. He had blood all over his stomach and on his nose. I sent for blankets to keep him warm...He didn't say anything to me and then his pulse stopped. The woman who found him said that he had told her he had been shot. She was in a right state”.
Then Mr. Williams smelled smoke and he and other neighbours ran through the gardens.
“The doors were closed so we hammered on them and shouted 'anybody there?'. There was no answer and I didn't want to open the doors because I have seen what draught does to a fire.”
Meanwhile, the fire service had been called by a woman in St. John's Park and a doctor who arrived at the scene pronounced the man dead.
It was getting dark and raining when firemen fighting the blaze found two men and two women dead inside the hotel. All had gunshot injuries.
Those who died in the incident were hotel owner, Mrs Linda Simcox (59), her daughter and son-in-law Lorna(24) and Alistair McIntyre(33), a long-standing family friend, Mr. John Gore Green (55), of Bay City, Texas, and the hotel's former gardener, Mr. Neil Rutherford (54).
Mr. Green was found in a downstairs kitchen and Mrs. McIntyre was in an upstairs bedroom. Mrs Simcox and Mr. Rutherford were lying dead in the lounge. Beside them was a automatic pistol. Detectives are working on the theory that Mr. Rutherford shot the four people before turning the gun on himself.
Detectives, fire officers and forensic scientists were at the hotel early on Saturday looking for clues to help them solve the mystery. Several items, including handbags and notebooks, were removed for examination. The hotel interior was badly damaged by the fire and police believe the fire was started in two separate parts of the building.
The man found dying in the road was identified as Mr. McIntyre. He is believed to have escaped from the hotel and crawled through the gardens to the road to call for help. He tore off his pullover as he made his way through the garden.
Lorna and Alistair McIntyre were living at the hotel and Mr Gore Green was the only guest.
Curious villagers who went to the scene on Saturday said the whole town had been shocked. Several spoke of Mr. Rutherford, known locally as 'the commander'. He was a short, stocky middle aged man, that had been working at the hotel as a gardener and handyman for eighteen months. They had heard that Mr. Rutherford had left the hotel a fortnight ago but he was seen in Penmaenmawr on Friday afternoon before the deaths.
He was known in most of the pubs in Penmaenmawr, his 'local' was the Alexandra, where he went about four times a week. The landlord, Elwyn Frogatt, said the commander was a quiet man who always drank alone.
“He was a proud gardener and used to bring us tomatoes. I never had any trouble with him. He used to come in quiet times and drink halves of Guinness.”
The landlord of the Bron Eyri hotel, Brian Jones, said that the commander struck him as a very fidgety man.
“He would never sit down. He used to pace up and down the room and look out of the window. He would just have half a pint of Guinness and then go. He never stayed longer than half an hour. When we heard about all this on Friday night, no-one could believe it”.
The commander was in the Mountain View hotel on Friday afternoon, shortly before the murders. The landlord, Mr E. Kemish, said that he seemed his normal self.
“He was on his own and pacing up and down like he normally did. He used to come in about once a week for a drink. On Friday he had a glass of Guinness and a couple of gins.
Regulars at the pubs said the commander was always on his own and rarely struck up a conversation.
Neil Rutherford was the son of Richard Perry Rutherford, a shipbuilder, and was born on the 15th May 1922 . He was married on the 7th August 1948 to Joan Margery Colville-Hyde (born 05.05.1923) but the marriage was dissolved on the 2nd May 1972. They had one daughter. He had a distinguished record of service in the Navy, including two DSCs. He retired from the Navy in 1958, following a stint at the Underwater Weapons Material Department (Bath) . He had been working at the Red Gables hotel since April 1975 as a gardener and general handyman.
© North Wales Weekly News 1976
The Red Gables Hotel reopened after the murders, but the bypassing of the town by the A55 led to its closure about 10 years ago. It remains derelict today:
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Hmmm, I was totally unaware of this until today.
Although I have always been very interested in major crimes and murders.
At the time of the inquest, was there any doubt that Rutherford committed the crime?
The only motive I can see is that of a disgruntled ex-employee, who had drunk more than usual on that day .
(he had slipped a couple of gins on top of his usual Guinness)
A proud ex serviceman, he may have gone to the hotel, inebriated, and either wanted to settle a score or ask for his job back.
Things may have quickly got out of hand, and once he had killed the first person he had to kill all witnesses,... then having realised the enormity of what he had done, decided that he had to do himself in.
Interesting also that he had only recently become divorced.
This man's motivation seems to have been that he was powerless, and the main supporting pillars of his life were absent.
Those being, A job ....a family, and close friends.
I also wonder whether he had discovered some bad news about his health recently too? That would have been the tipping point.
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Interesting analysis. I found this out:
"Commander Rutherford retired from the navy 5 January 1959. He was son of Neil Perry Rutherford and after his father's death, Neil took over the family firm as head of A. Rutherford and Co, until it was liquidated in the 1960s. By April 1975, he was working as a gardener/handyman at the Red Gables Hotel, Penmaenmawr, North Wales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Rutherford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Rutherford)
One other thing I would mention is that a former Submarine Commander working as a gardener? That's some comedown. He left the Navy in 1959, ran the family firm (Rutherford & Co, shipbuilders in Birkenhead) until it went bust in the 1960s, then was divorced in 1972. One by one, as you say, the pillars of his life were taken away from him. It's possible that he may have been suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (although no-one would have been aware of such a thing back then).
Another point of interest is the weapon - an automatic pistol. Remember Rutherford hadn't been living or working at the hotel for several weeks, so it's likely he brought the weapon with him - did he have it all planned out?
The Inquest report is in Caernarfon archives - never got round to going to view it yet. The NWWN for late 1976 may also contain the information.
Rutherford & Co advert:
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I remember the Red Gables murder happening, and the sense of shock it caused. There was a murder on Lloyd street Llandudno in the 1970's when a lodger murdered his landlady, I remember walking home from school not long after it happened wondering what all the police activity was about.
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There's a book about North Wales Murders, mentions the Llandudno one (a case of mistaken identity?) but not the Red Gables murders. I have it somewhere.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Wales-Murder-Casebook-Fielding/dp/1853063800 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Wales-Murder-Casebook-Fielding/dp/1853063800)
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It looks like another 'mystery' is unfolding.... over on Oscar. :o
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the man who commited the murder was john jones,he had been drinking in the town after having bust up with a girl friend ,i dont remember if he lived at the same address as her but when he returned late afternoon to her boarding house he was refused addmission by the landlady who he then stabbed to death.
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I was on my way home from Brownies on the night of the Gables murders. There was 3 people shot as I remember. One lady was pregnant. I remember it was a shocking time. Pen has quite a high murder count in ratio to the amount of people living there.
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It looks like another 'mystery' is unfolding.... over on Oscar. :o
Yet again Bruce Jones is involved. the guy is an ass >>>
(ha ha Brumbob I said Ass too) hopefully Justin is found safe and sound. Lovely fella
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the man who commited the murder was john jones,he had been drinking in the town after having bust up with a girl friend ,i dont remember if he lived at the same address as her but when he returned late afternoon to her boarding house he was refused addmission by the landlady who he then stabbed to death.
The murderer was John Thomas Davies, a 46 year old factory worker, of Clifton Road, Llandudno.
It was Llandudno's first recorded murder and took place at Jubilee House, 24 Lloyd Street, on June 2 1970.
The victim, 72 year old Mrs Florence Roberts, was stabbed twice by Davies, on his way to attack his 43 year old girlfriend who was also stabbed. His girlfriend however, recovered after hospital treatment.
Davies made his getaway aboard a Crosville bus, which was stopped by Police at Deganwy. Davies stated "I killed the wrong woman"
He pleaded guilty to murder at Chester Assizes Court, and was sentenced to life imprisonment.
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Davies made his getaway aboard a Crosville bus
He's no O J Simpson....
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Davies made his getaway aboard a Crosville bus
He's no O J Simpson....
L0L
If Davies is still alive he would be 87 years old today.
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sorry wrong surname ,i stand corrected
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Going back to the Red Gables case, careful reading of the newspaper article throws up more questions..
1) Red Gables is a three storey building, with the main entrance at first floor level. I'm assuming that lower floor (back garden/basement level) was where the kitchens/service areas were), first floor (pavement level in photo above) was public lounges/reception etc, and First Floor was Bedrooms. Now, what's interesting is that the bodies were found on three separate levels, one upstairs, two on the first floor, and one downstairs - how was Rutherford able to kill 4 people on three separate floors so easily?
2) I find the fact that Rutherford shot himself next to the body of Mrs Simcox significant - a possible romantic entanglement that went wrong?
3) As I've mentioned before....Rutherford hadn't been living at the hotel for several weeks. So he must have travelled there with the pistol (unless he had hidden it in the hotel previously), which indicates the whole thing (to some degree) was premeditated. Why did he own a pistol and ammunition anyway?
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Wasn't it Mrs Simcox who was pregnant?
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Rutherford had a military career, and many such people keep a firearm as a souvenir (or for sentimental reasons) after they are discharged.
The three latter victims could have run away to other levels in fear after the first gunshots, maybe they tried to hide realising they couldn't reach the door to get outside?
It sounds like his 'fidgetty' nature and other nervous habits made him the type of guy who would let things build up (fester if you like) until it got the better of him.
Yes, it was premeditated in the sense that he was going to do SOMETHING dramatic, then a few gins later, it all reached a crescendo.
Good point Dave, He may well have been fixated with the Simcox woman, but never told a soul.... until that day, then all witnesses and the scene had to be eradicated.
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There was the story of the husband kiled with a blow to the head with a hammer and left rolled up in a carpet in a walled up basement for 20yrs or more. The body was found when Jeff Taxi bought the building and located the walled up cellar. No one could understand why the Wife refused to move from Castle Hall despite being offered a council house for herself and her children. She always maintained that her husband had just up and left after an argument. Depending on who you talk to the guy deserved it.
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Murders are something that are fairly infrequent in the local area (fortunately), however, there have been several high profile cases...and this is one from 1976 that I have always found fascinating.......I've often wondered what made Neil Rutherford snap that fateful evening.
"The night five died in quiet hotel"
A Penmaenmawr man stumbled upon the shooting that left five people dead at the Red Gables hotel on Friday 24th September 1976.
Just before 6pm, Mr. Will Williams, 41, arrived home to find a woman waving her arms in the road. Near her a man lay bleeding. Mr. Williams of St. Johns Park ran over to help the man. Then he smelled smoke and found the hotel was on fire. He told neighbours to phone the emergency services.
“I ran over and took the man's pulse. It was very weak. He had blood all over his stomach and on his nose. I sent for blankets to keep him warm...He didn't say anything to me and then his pulse stopped. The woman who found him said that he had told her he had been shot. She was in a right state”.
Then Mr. Williams smelled smoke and he and other neighbours ran through the gardens.
“The doors were closed so we hammered on them and shouted 'anybody there?'. There was no answer and I didn't want to open the doors because I have seen what draught does to a fire.”
Meanwhile, the fire service had been called by a woman in St. John's Park and a doctor who arrived at the scene pronounced the man dead.
It was getting dark and raining when firemen fighting the blaze found two men and two women dead inside the hotel. All had gunshot injuries.
Those who died in the incident were hotel owner, Mrs Linda Simcox (59), her daughter and son-in-law Lorna(24) and Alistair McIntyre(33), a long-standing family friend, Mr. John Gore Green (55), of Bay City, Texas, and the hotel's former gardener, Mr. Neil Rutherford (54).
Mr. Green was found in a downstairs kitchen and Mrs. McIntyre was in an upstairs bedroom. Mrs Simcox and Mr. Rutherford were lying dead in the lounge. Beside them was a automatic pistol. Detectives are working on the theory that Mr. Rutherford shot the four people before turning the gun on himself.
Detectives, fire officers and forensic scientists were at the hotel early on Saturday looking for clues to help them solve the mystery. Several items, including handbags and notebooks, were removed for examination. The hotel interior was badly damaged by the fire and police believe the fire was started in two separate parts of the building.
The man found dying in the road was identified as Mr. McIntyre. He is believed to have escaped from the hotel and crawled through the gardens to the road to call for help. He tore off his pullover as he made his way through the garden.
Lorna and Alistair McIntyre were living at the hotel and Mr Gore Green was the only guest.
Curious villagers who went to the scene on Saturday said the whole town had been shocked. Several spoke of Mr. Rutherford, known locally as 'the commander'. He was a short, stocky middle aged man, that had been working at the hotel as a gardener and handyman for eighteen months. They had heard that Mr. Rutherford had left the hotel a fortnight ago but he was seen in Penmaenmawr on Friday afternoon before the deaths.
He was known in most of the pubs in Penmaenmawr, his 'local' was the Alexandra, where he went about four times a week. The landlord, Elwyn Frogatt, said the commander was a quiet man who always drank alone.
“He was a proud gardener and used to bring us tomatoes. I never had any trouble with him. He used to come in quiet times and drink halves of Guinness.”
The landlord of the Bron Eyri hotel, Brian Jones, said that the commander struck him as a very fidgety man.
“He would never sit down. He used to pace up and down the room and look out of the window. He would just have half a pint of Guinness and then go. He never stayed longer than half an hour. When we heard about all this on Friday night, no-one could believe it”.
The commander was in the Mountain View hotel on Friday afternoon, shortly before the murders. The landlord, Mr E. Kemish, said that he seemed his normal self.
“He was on his own and pacing up and down like he normally did. He used to come in about once a week for a drink. On Friday he had a glass of Guinness and a couple of gins.
Regulars at the pubs said the commander was always on his own and rarely struck up a conversation.
Neil Rutherford was the son of Richard Perry Rutherford, a shipbuilder, and was born on the 15th May 1922 . He was married on the 7th August 1948 to Joan Margery Colville-Hyde (born 05.05.1923) but the marriage was dissolved on the 2nd May 1972. They had one daughter. He had a distinguished record of service in the Navy, including two DSCs. He retired from the Navy in 1958, following a stint at the Underwater Weapons Material Department (Bath) . He had been working at the Red Gables hotel since April 1975 as a gardener and general handyman.
© North Wales Weekly News 1976
The Red Gables Hotel reopened after the murders, but the bypassing of the town by the A55 led to its closure about 10 years ago. It remains derelict today:
Re Red Gables. There is still family and descendants living locally and are still upset about the Red Gables. I have often asked a relative of mine - who is connected to the family, what did happen and will the truth ever come to light. Can you imagine - coming home from the forces to find your sister, and your mum murdered. :)
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My Nain's cousin was shot and killed in the Groes in Conwy. Joan Reay (cousin) was shot by Dr John Reay, her husband, who also shot John Haden who was with her in the Groes. Dr Reay then committed suicide at Sychnant Pass.
I have a newspaper clipping somewhere with more detail.
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Sounds fascinating Sara, what year was this?
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I think it was in the 1940's. It's been said that the wall(s) still have bullet holes in them. I don't know if this is true or not. I don't know how many shots Dr Reay fired.
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I'm pretty sure the Groes murders are documented in the North Wales Murder Casebook. I did have a copy somewhere, not quite sure where though. :roll:
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Can you imagine - coming home from the forces to find your sister, and your mum murdered. :)
Errr....yes, but I wouldn't insert a happy smiley. ?{}?
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Err, yeah... I thought that was a bit odd.
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My Nain's cousin was shot and killed in the Groes in Conwy. Joan Reay (cousin) was shot by Dr John Reay, her husband, who also shot John Haden who was with her in the Groes. Dr Reay then committed suicide at Sychnant Pass.
I have a newspaper clipping somewhere with more detail.
It was the 27th August 1942. Dr Reay (who had his Practice at Rindleford, Queens Road, Craig Y Don) believed (incorrectly) that his estranged wife had been having an affair with Mr. Haden and was going to ask him for a Divorce. After shooting them both with a shotgun in the Darts Room of the Groes Inn, he drove to the top of Sychnant pass where he took an overdose of pills and his body was found in the car by a local Postman the next morning.
Groes Inn today:
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1305/4672197250_a68f25f51b_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4672197250/)
Adventures in the Conwy Valley (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/4672197250/#) by davidrobertsphotography (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
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Thanks for that Dave, never knew the date.
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I remember the Sophie Hook murder, which was very sad indeed. :'(
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1996/07/18/BSP180796036/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=1 (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1996/07/18/BSP180796036/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=1)
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The murder of Denise Reynolds was terrible. :'(
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2 (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2)
I remember the two lads that died in the Mini from school. One was called "Bobby" as I recall. :'(
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I remember the Sophie Hook murder too, Howard Hughes travelled on my bus a few times with his Rottweiler and I can honestly say I wasn't shocked when he was revealed as her killer as there was always something not quite right with his demeanour.
I remember Bobby from school as he was in the same year as me, a nice lad who definitely didn't deserve his fate, the epitome of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Why the other guy couldn't have just driven into a wall or off a cliff instead of snuffing out innocent lads minding their own business is beyond me!
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I remember the Red Gables murder happening, and the sense of shock it caused. There was a murder on Lloyd street Llandudno in the 1970's when a lodger murdered his landlady, I remember walking home from school not long after it happened wondering what all the police activity was about.
Yes that was at Breton court. A family member of mine knew the poor landlady.
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The murder of Denise Reynolds was terrible. :'(
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2 (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2)
I remember the two lads that died in the Mini from school. One was called "Bobby" as I recall. :'(
I remember Bobby from school too,and his brother Tony. I also remember Vernon when he was a taxi driver. I still think of what happened that night every new years eve,even now. So tragic.
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can anyone remember a murder in the 70s,early i think about a girl who was found dead at the entrance of elephants cave.
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can anyone remember a murder in the 70s,early i think about a girl who was found dead at the entrance of elephants cave.
The woman's name was Eirlys Roberts,23, from Old Colwyn and a waitress at the Howard Hotel in Llandudno. She had been strangled. The year was 1979. She was murdered by a man called Arthur Wynne, a convicted murderer who whilst in jail was a model prisoner and achieved a BA degree. He strangled her just two months after being released from prison.
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We had a walk in Penmaenmawr yesterday and saw what I thought was an old abandoned pub, DaveR soon told me on Facebook that it is The Red Gables Hotel, the scene of a mass murder! :o as the front door was open I had a quick look round.
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0143-1.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0131.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0132.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0133.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0135.jpg)(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0137.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0138.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0139.jpg)
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0140.jpg)
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I have seen too many films where the curious innocent enter such a place. only to meet a frightful end.
I would never set foot in there. aaa.gif aaa.gif
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I have seen too many films where the curious innocent enter such a place. only to meet a frightful end.
I would never set foot in there. aaa.gif aaa.gif
As Fester knows full well, I also decided to pay a visit today to take a look around, being as the hotel has long fascinated me. Wandering on my own in semi-darkness around a derelict hotel that was the scene of a horrific mass murder was no problem. :laugh: $good$
Here's a couple of photos:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8328/8353636739_abd5d67027_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353636739/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353636739/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8371/8354703032_7bdb57902b_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354703032/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354703032/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8500/8353645523_87f24447c9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353645523/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353645523/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8502/8353638629_363c0759b9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353638629/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8353638629/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8473/8354702898_9d00cb3485_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354702898/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354702898/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8194/8354706046_b13b3181e9_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354706046/)
Red Gables Hotel (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/8354706046/#) by [davidrobertsphotography] (http://www.flickr.com/people/davellandudno/), on Flickr
Full set of photos can be seen over on Flickr:
www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157632454690598/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/davellandudno/sets/72157632454690598/)
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Tell 'em what 'awaited' you round the corner Dave!
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Tell 'em what 'awaited' you round the corner Dave!
It was horrific....as I cautiously walked around a corner, I saw movement right in front of me and I jumped a foot in the air! It was, erm...a mirror. :laugh: :laugh:
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_))* the Sunday Mirror? ;D. I felt nothing spooky in there at all, but at the time did not know the story! I'd go back in as long as the entrance isn't boarded up again!
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Wandering on my own in semi-darkness around a derelict hotel that was the scene of a horrific mass murder was no problem.
What horrors could it possibly hold, after drinking with Fester... :-)))))))) WWW WWW WWW
More seriously at least any prospective owner won't have to shell out for new Exit signs...
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L0L the place was 'way out' :laugh:
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The Red Gables Hotel has now been secured again.
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Lucky we saw what we did!
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Lucky we saw what we did!
Indeed. Thanks for the tipoff!
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I have discovered that 1231 people were murdered in Brit in 2011, but over 7000 committed suicide.
So, based on this, the next time I see a knife wielding manic coming towards me, I will simply invite him to do his worst.
Seeing as I am 6 times more likely to end my own life than anything he can do! ZXZ
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can anyone remember a murder in the 70s,early i think about a girl who was found dead at the entrance of elephants cave.
The woman's name was Eirlys Roberts,23, from Old Colwyn and a waitress at the Howard Hotel in Llandudno. She had been strangled. The year was 1979. She was murdered by a man called Arthur Wynne, a convicted murderer who whilst in jail was a model prisoner and achieved a BA degree. He strangled her just two months after being released from prison.
Do you have more information on this case? Or Arthur Wynne's previous murder?
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can anyone remember a murder in the 70s,early i think about a girl who was found dead at the entrance of elephants cave.
The woman's name was Eirlys Roberts,23, from Old Colwyn and a waitress at the Howard Hotel in Llandudno. She had been strangled. The year was 1979. She was murdered by a man called Arthur Wynne, a convicted murderer who whilst in jail was a model prisoner and achieved a BA degree. He strangled her just two months after being released from prison.
Do you have more information on this case? Or Arthur Wynne's previous murder?
Some press clippings are attached - click on them to view a larger version. His first victim:
WYNNE, Arthur (43): murder of Edith WILLIAMS (83) on 7 April 1967 at Bangor, by suffocation with cushions. Convicted
[smg id=3104]
[smg id=3105]
[smg id=3106]
Hope these help! :)
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Thank you very much for these, researching family history and Arthur Wynne is (unfortunately!) my grandmothers brother! i no he has committed 2 murders, if anyone has any more info please let me no. thanks again for the newspaper cuttings x
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There was also the murder of Karen Pooley in Colwyn Bay in 1986 on the wasteground where the old Colwyn Bay Hotel once stood.
According to http://www.britishmurders.co.uk/murder-content.php?key=7893&name=Thomas%20Ian%20Harrison (http://www.britishmurders.co.uk/murder-content.php?key=7893&name=Thomas%20Ian%20Harrison)
Thomas Harrison was originally convicted of the murder of Karen Pooley, but on appeal his conviction was reduced to manslaughter.
Thomas Harrison was disabled with cerebral palsy and regularly attended Bible classes. He met Karen Pooley at Colwyn Bay station when he was posting a letter. They spent some time together and then went towards some waste land where Karen Pooley was killed. Its not clear exactly what happened but it is thought Thomas Harrison had carried out an unatural sex act and strangled her.
He was originally convicted of murder but that was reduced to manslaughter on appeal.
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I remember that one. The Police held a re-enactment of the victim's final walk, as I recall, in an attempt to jog people's memories. How the sentence was reduced to manslaughter, I'm not sure, when he strangled the poor girl.
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The murder of Denise Reynolds was terrible. :'(
http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2 (http://www.itnsource.com/shotlist//ITN/1992/01/01/BSP010192010/?s=Llandudno&st=0&pn=2)
I remember the two lads that died in the Mini from school. One was called "Bobby" as I recall. :'(
Someone from work was reading about this today, and informed me the top google link was in very bad taste (the second link is this site!) It's from a site called 'murderpedia' (I won't post a link as it's not nice but as I say it's the top link on google so not hard to find)
The question is why is this article, which is written in a jokey quite sick why the number 1 link, instead of a respected news site?
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It's not just Google; DuckDuckGo also has it in first place. Probably because someone involved has spent an inordinate amount of time to skew the results.
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One thing that's a little odd is that the Murderpedia article about Vernon Reynolds is written in a very misogynistic style, whereas the accounts of other murders are far more factual. I wonder who wrote it?
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Going back to the Red Gables case, careful reading of the newspaper article throws up more questions..
Late to this though I am, to return to Red Gables once more ... I also had a questions from the newspapers article though perhaps not as pertinent as Dave's.
One local states how regular the man is in his habits. "He would just have half a pint of Guinness and then go. He never stayed longer than half an hour. When we heard about all this on Friday night, no-one could believe it”.
And yet he had two gins that night, as well as a glass of Guinness. Very much not 'his normal self' - that's a pretty heavy half an hour, or an atypical prolonged stay. ???
Signs that something was up were certainly there, alas, only those with the advantage of foresight are likely to recognise their significance.
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Oh Dave, my friend who has helped me time and time again, WHAt The Hell does misogynistic style mean?
I know I could look it up in a dictionary --- but, I.m not going to. I,m afraid it might mean some sort of sexual position never mind yorkies old heart, mine is definitely older
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"misogynist": literally a woman hater...
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Does anyone remember the case of a son who murdered his parents in Llandudno. I think it was in the 1980s. Also a local lady found murdered on the great orme Llandudno in 1980s
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Hi DMR
I haven't been on here for ages so just saw this. I have also been looking for info on this.
I believe the murderer was called John Keith Roberts, a local musician that i faintly knew.
I remember him doing a gig with a band in Winter's late 70's playing bass I think.
By all accounts he had a strict upbringing by religeous parents.
I think they lived on Caroline Rd or St Mary's Rd off Trinity Ave.
I seem to remember he was sent to a psychiatric unit.
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Hi I was intrigued by all this and managed to get a copy of North Wales Murders second hand
on ebay.
At the time of writing there are a couple of other copies on e bay for about£3 and
might be worth getting hold of if you are interested.?
I hope someone is inclined to update it.
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Hi DMR
I haven't been on here for ages so just saw this. I have also been looking for info on this.
I believe the murderer was called John Keith Roberts, a local musician that i faintly knew.
I remember him doing a gig with a band in Winter's late 70's playing bass I think.
By all accounts he had a strict upbringing by religeous parents.
I have also been looking for info on this and cannot find anything.
I think they lived on Caroline Rd or St Mary's Rd off Trinity Ave.
I seem to remember he was sent to a psychiatric unit.
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I can remember this vaguely. One thing does stand out is a press report that when on trial, he claimed the killings had been done by the Securitate. These were the Romanian special police under the last Communist dictator, Ceacescu who fell in 1989 so that might date the incident within a year or so.
His father was a retired BT employee and was a member of the RAFA club, the mother was briefly a Town Councillor. They lived on the western side of St Mary's Road a couple of doors from Trinity Avenue.
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Liverpool Echo Tuesday 24th October 1989 - Son faces murder charges. A RESEARCHER was remanded in custody for a week at Llandudno accused of the murder of his parents. John Jones, 29, of St Mary's Road, Llandudno, was charged with killing his father Ivor, 70, a retired Telecom engineer, and his mother Rowena, 62. The charges allege the murders occurred at the family home between Thursday and Sunday.