Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: PhilMick on August 01, 2016, 07:14:48 pm
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Hi - can anyone help me trace William?
William was born in Liverpool about 1896.
I have him living with his family in Toxteth Park Liverpool on the 1901 census.
The family moved to 15 Alexander Road Llandudno sometime between 1901 - 1911.
Again, I have him on the 1911 census living in the Lockyers Hotel, Llandudno.
I can't find any references to him either in the military or on ancestry after 1911.
Can anyone help?
Phil
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There is a William Herbert Hughes on the Llandudno Roll of Honour (WW1) serving as a Private in the Royal Welsh - his address is given as 15 Alexandra Road; a brother, Robert Edward, is listed at the same address and also serving in the RWF.
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Hi Jack - thanks for the information.
Can I see the Roll of Honour online?
Phil
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I don't know if it is on-line. There is a copy in the library.
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Thanks Jack - next time I'm in North Wales I'll go to the library.
Thanks for the pointer.
phil
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I called at the Conwy Archives in Llandudno today but couldn't find anything in the Burial Index for W H Hughes but those indexes only list certain graves with headstones.
It could be that he is buried in the Council owned graveyard at St Hilary's Llanrhos or St Tudno's on the Great Orme.
I had a look at the Street indexes for 1939 and Mrs M G Hughes was listed as living at 15 Alexandra Road Llandudno. There was a William Herbert Hughes listed as living at Oversley, 7 Marl Crescent Llandudno Junction.
These street indexes only list one person living at an address and that person is usually the head of the household or the breadwinner.
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The William Hughes that Hugo mentions in 1939 living at 7 Marl Crescent was born 15/10/1904 living with his wife Lillian. He was a LMS Railway Guard but there is an 8 years difference with the date of birth you have.
The Hughes family living at 15 Alexander Road, Llandudno are Mary Grace Hughes Widow born 26/9/1864 her son Robert Edward Railway Porter & Van Man born 11/11/1898 & Margaret A Hodson Widow her daughter, Occupation Waitress born 16/1/1893.
William Herbert is a very difficult person to find :(
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There is a William Hughes born 1897(close to assumed date) living in LLandudno on the 1939 Register (on FMP).
I have found that the middle names are not always quoted.
It's only a possibility.............. but was he married etc by then? Was she Catherine E by any chance?
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William Herbert is a very difficult person to find :(
Last night I tried putting his full name into Google and there was a photo of Cullen Street Toxteth on it and another entry had a photo of a William Herbert Hughes 1897 to 1944 on it but this person was a sailor in the Royal Navy. I don't suppose that he's the person we are looking for as Meleri found our WHH in the Army and in the RWF.
I had a search this morning but couldn't find anything at all.
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PhilMick, Have you got any details about William Herbert's parents eg names and dates of birth as it may help in tracing William?
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Hugo it was Jack that found the military information on William and his brother Robert on the Roll of Honour. I'm a bit confused by this as Robert is still alive on the 1939 Register living at Alexander Road.
There is a William H Hughes mentioned on the Llandudno War Memorial but his mother was Laura Jane Hughes Trinity Street, Llandudno he died 16/8/1916 so he isn't the right one.
I have found William on the school register at Dyffryn Road Council School in 1907 his date of birth is 29/4/1896. Also brother Robert and sister Jennie they had come from St Clements School, Liverpool. William left school 29/4/1910, Robert left 8/12/1911 & Jennie 13/1/1909 as they were all of age. They were living at 15 Alexander Road Llandudno, father John William Hughes
There is a marriage for William Herbert Hughes in September 1922 to Eleanor Elizabeth Byatt spinster of the Parish of Eglwys Rhos. This could be him?
I have had a look at the William Hughes that Rhuddlan mentions above, but his date of birth is 3/7/1897 so we can count him out as well.
William Herbert's parents were John William Hughes born 1861 Holywell and he was a Compositor in a printing works in 1911 and Mary Grace Hughes born Llandudno 1864.
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My mistake Meleri, thanks for pointing it out about Jack. Jack's very good on research into the Armed Services.
You've been very busy with your research too and you've found out some very interesting info there.
I'll have a good look at everything tomorrow as I'm dashing off right now for a meal at The Toad. $dins$
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Hope you and Mrs H had a lovely meal at The Toad Hugo.
After quite a bit of searching I have at last found military info on William. Royal Artillery Attestation 1/11/1921 at Llandudno for 1 year in the Territorial Force. Service No 1666743 age 24 years 6 months, Occupation Labourer. Discharge 31/10/1922 due to Para 156(1) TA Regs, Serial No R3340. (perhaps Jack could help with whatever that means?)
Former Service RWF $walesflag$ period 5 years 157 days, discharge Address 15 Alexander Road, Llandudno.
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Hi Meleri
At that time there were 11 ways that a soldier could be discharged from the Army. William was discharged due to 'Termination of Engagement' = Para [paragraph] 156(1) of the TA [Territorial Army] Regs [Regulations].
As he only signed up for one year then this is just the term used for when that contract comes to an end - nothing more sinister or interesting than that.
Had it been Paragraph 4 (conduct unsatisfactory) or paragraph 5 (Not being likely to become an efficient soldier) or paragraph 7 (having made a false answer on attestation) then the imagination could run a bit :) ;D
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Thanks Meleri, we did have a nice meal in The Toad and a few drinks too. Z**
That's a lot of good info that you found out about William and especially the marriage which I'm sure will help with finding out more details for later years. What records did you use to get the Marriage details as I tried Roots UK and it was hopeless?
As a result of all your work there may be things I can look at in the Llandudno Archives when I next go there
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That's interesting information Jack,I shall have to dig out my ancestors military records and have a look to see why they were discharged. I have a feeling one of them had Paragraph 7.
Hugo I got the information from Find My Past website. Oddly enough I found the Banns of marriage were taken 10th/17th & 24th September but the name was Ellen E Byatt but the marriage was Eleanor Elizabeth Byatt. The marriage register stated the marriage was registered in the 4th quarter which is Oct/Nov/Dec 1922. Perhaps you will be able to have a look at the register in the Archive and get more information.
I also got the military information from FMP, but only the 1 year service in the territorials. I have been unable to find the RWF record.
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Thanks Meleri, In the Archives they have Ancestry and Find My Past websites on the computers there and as they are free to use I tend to go there rather than the Library which is also free.
If they have a Marriage register for 1922 in the Archives then I can have a look at that and also other street indexes etc.
As you have already found the Parish of his wife and the dates of the marriage it makes a search that much easier. $good$
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I spent some time at the Conwy Archives today but had no luck in my search for William Herbert Hughes. Both Eleanor and William lived in the old Parish of Eglwysrhos so I had a look at the Llanrhos Marriage record for the whole of the 1920's but there is no record of a marriage at St Hilary's Church. Just in case they married in Trinity Church Llandudno instead I looked at the marriage register for the Church but again could find no record of a marriage there.
There was another Marriage Register for St Georges Church but I didn't look at that register.
I also looked at the Llandudno Advertiser but I could see no report of the marriage recorded in the paper.
Finally I looked at the Street Indexes for Llandudno but there was no record there for W H Hughes, but in the 1939 and 1955 street indexes for Colwyn Bay there was an entry for William Herbert Hughes living at Warren Point Endsleigh Road Old Colwyn (the 1955 index just showed him at No1 Endsleigh Road )
Unfortunately I couldn't establish if this is the person we are looking for.
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Sorry everyone. Had to travel abroad expectantly.
I appreciate all the replies.
My wife's great grandparents lived at 15 Alexandeer Road. Various members of the family lived there after that.
Her grandparents and mother moved into Mowbray Road in 1926 and that was her mother's home until she died last year. Her grandparents where William and Jane Owen.
I have a public ancestry tree on which William Herbert is a part. Please feel free to look at it.
I notice from other like topics that there may be others Hughes family members on the forum. Hugo, are your family close?
Phil
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Hugo
Just a thought. I wonder if they might have married either at St Paul's Church or the old St Andrew's Church both of which were in the Llanrhos parish at that time ? St Andrew's was almost "cheek by jowl" with Alexandra Road.
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Cambrian, that's a good possibility and one I hadn't thought of. However wouldn't the marriage have to be recorded in the Parish Register and those were the records I was looking at?
I remember doing a search for a Baptism in St Andrews Church and that was in 1922 also so it's a possibility.
So it's back to the drawing board and a visit to the Archives, which may be next week.
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I notice from other like topics that there may be others Hughes family members on the forum. Hugo, are your family close?
Phil
My Mother's surname was also Hughes before she married my Father so I have a lot of relatives in the local area but unfortunately there is no connection with your Hughes family.
The Archivist had a look on his computer for W H Hughes and Eleanor Byatt but nothing appeared on his computer so for the moment William Herbert is still a mystery
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Hugo - each place of worship would normally have its own register of marriages. Also, the Vicar of Llanrhos would have had his own book of marriage certificates and an official Register issued by the Registrar General as he effectively had the power of a Superintendent Registrar and had the title of "Surrogate" - this only applies to Church in Wales Vicars or Rectors.
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Thanks very much for that info Cambrian, it's really appreciated as I'm sure that it will be handy for everyone to be aware of. I did go back to the Archives today and although they did have Baptism records for 1922 etc they did not have a Marriage Register at the Archives until 1933. I did look at the Wedding Banns and had a photo copy done.
Just in case, I also looked at the Marriage Register for St George's Church for 1922 but W H Hughes is not listed there.
I also looked at all the Street Indexes there and the only William Herbert Hughes that is listed and we are unaware of is in the 1929 Colwyn Bay Street Index and it shows a person of that name living at 3, Colwyn Terrace Old Colwyn.
The Burial Indexes for Colwyn Bay are not in Llandudno but may be in Ruthin so I couldn't follow that up
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Hugo,
I have looked up the William Herbert Hughes living at Warren Point on the 1939 Register and he isn't who we are looking for, that one was born 26/1/1885 Occupation Bank Clerk. I have no way of checking the latest one you found in 1929. :(
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I think I have a result.
I checked the North Wales BMD site and lo and behold:
William Herbert Hughes was married at St Paul's Church, Craig y Don in 1922 to Ellen Elizabeth Byatt. The Conwy Register Office reference is CO8/1/13.
Their full details will be on the certificate if a copy is obtained.
Hugo - one thing did slightly intrigue me is that the Banns Register says William is of the "Parish of Eglwysrhos" but that Ellen is "of this Parish" which could implies they were not be of the same parish. As the clergy who have signed the certificate were both curates assigned to Llandudno, it seems the Banns Register is Llandudno Parish's and that Ellen lived therein.
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Good find Cambrian!
I have found similar details on Familysearch, but a different reference, so i thought I would put it on
here anyway :-
William H Hughes
mentioned in the record of Byatt and William H Hughes
Name William H Hughes
Event Type Marriage Registration
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year 1922
Registration District Conway
County Caernarvonshire
Event Place Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Spouse Name (available after 1911) Byatt
Volume 11B
Page 915
Line Number 91
William H Hughes probably married one of the following people
Ellen E Byatt
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Good finds Cambrian and Rhuddlan. $good$
One thing I didn't make clear was that there was no Marriage Register at the Archives for St Andrews Church in 1922. The Banns of Marriage was however taken from the Register at St Andrews Church in 1922.
Now St Andrew's Church I believe was in the Parish of Eglwysrhos so both Eleanor and William lived in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.
There was no Marriage Register at the Archives for St Paul's Church though but that again was in the Parish of Eglwysrhos. Her name in the Banns was Eleanor yet it says Ellen in the marriage. I don't know the reason for that but I have seen that change of name done before.
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Hugo - I am a bit puzzled that the Banns Register is from St Andrew's as at that time the church was in the parish of Llanrhos/Eglwysrhos. The clergy who have signed the book to confirm the reading of the banns were both curates in Llandudno Parish in 1922. I seem to recall being told that church registers were sent to the National Library of Wales when they were complete. That practice may have changed now that County Archives have become more established. Of course the St Andrew's books would have transferred to Llandudno when the boundary was adjusted.
This is a bit arcane and doesn't subtract from the information gleaned regarding William and Ellen.
Incidentally, I had an aunt of similar vintage whose name registered at birth was Ellen but in adult life styled herself Elinor or Eleanor! I think this seems to have been a not uncommon practice in this neck of the woods but the reason is a mystery.
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I'll double check the Banns Register when I next go to the Archives Cambrian and let you know the result. What I should also have looked at in the Street Index is the address of a Byatt.
It's an unusual name for that period and they did have a Street Index there for 1922 which is the year that Ellen got married. A Wedding Certificate would probably show Ellen's address though. As they got married in St Paul's Church, I was wondering if she lived in Craig Y Don somewhere and the Street Index could have helped there.
I'm sure that we came across a similar thing with an Eleanor/Ellen for a Williams family on the forum last year, so it it's not an uncommon practise as you have said.
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Dear all
I 'm still away - thank you for your great research.
I'll be able to go through it and update my wife's family tree when I get back next week.
Phil
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Hugo - I am a bit puzzled that the Banns Register is from St Andrew's as at that time the church was in the parish of Llanrhos/Eglwysrhos. The clergy who have signed the book to confirm the reading of the banns were both curates in Llandudno Parish in 1922. I seem to recall being told that church registers were sent to the National Library of Wales when they were complete. That practice may have changed now that County Archives have become more established. Of course the St Andrew's books would have transferred to Llandudno when the boundary was adjusted.
I went back to the Archives and had a look at the index on Banns of Marriage. There is nothing listed for St Andrews Church although there is one listing for Holy Trinity 1892- 1970,
The one I looked at previously was under the heading of Llandudno and covered the years 1912-1934 at ref CEP 17/1/15 so that must be for the Parish of Llandudno
The only reference I could find in the Llandudno Street index for some one called Byatt was in the 1911 index.
This showed an Alfred Henry Byatt shopman living at 1 Gloddaeth Villas Bodafon Street Llandudno. Now that cottage was within the old boundary of Eglwysrhos, I don't know when the boundaries changed but I think that it was after 1922
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Back at home now.
I would like to summarise what we have found out about William, so far, with your help!
Actual DOB: 29/4/1896.
School in Liverpool.
School in Llandudno.
Served in 1WW - on Roll of Honour in Llandudno.
Length of service during 1WW: 5 years 157 days.
Service in Territorials.
Marriage to Ellen E Byatt at St Pauls, Craig y don in 1922.
I'm having difficulty finding William's military history through Ancestry. I hope that seeing the Roll of Honour later in the week will give me his service numbers etc.
I can't link Ellen to Alfred Henry Byatt in Llandudno. The possible links are to a family in Dilhorne Staffordshire. I've ordered their marriage certificate so that will help.
Thanks again.
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Unfortunately the Roll of Honour does not give service numbers. I hadn't noticed when I looked at the RoH the first time that there is a third man (brother?) listed as living at 15 Alexandra Road - John Howard Hughes - serving with the King's Liverpool Regiment.
I tried to look on the WW1 'medal rolls' to find William Herbert Hughes but failed! - there are none listed as serving with the RWF. Therefore I imagine he is listed simply as William Hughes and there were 122 William Hughes' in the RWF in WW1.
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I managed to have a look at the Marriage Register at St Paul's today. I found the details of the marriage which are:
Date: 3rd October 1922
William Herbert Hughes, aged 25, bachelor, a labourer of 7 Alexandra Road, Llandudno. His father: John William Hughes, labourer.
Ellen Elizabeth Byatt, aged 23, spinster. No occupation given. of Baron Hill, Great Orme. Father: William Byatt, a miner.
This will hopefully fill in a couple of gaps. As we thought, William was living in Llanrhos Parish and Ellen in Llandudno Parish.
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Cambrian, that's a really great find and it's a coincidence that she lived in Baron Hill Great Orme as we had some other person whose relative lived there.
Baron Hill is in St Beuno's Road Great Orme and if my old memory is working ok I think that the person there was Robert Hughes.
I may be wrong on the name but who ever I found hit the local bobby and was had up for the offence,
I'll try and remember the other case and look at any notes that I made. It might make a connection with PhilMick
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Now this could be interesting for PhilMick if he looks at Geneology and Research at pg 2. Under the heading of Margaret Ann Pearl Hughes was a posting by Karenjadejoy and it shows a photo of her relation Robert Hughes and his wife outside Baron Hill. If PhilMick looks at that there may be some info there that can help him.
There is also another posting under "Hughes Family" by CFR and there may be some connection there as the Hughes family lived in Kings Road ( a continuation of Alexander Road)
I've had a quick look at Margaret Ann Pearl Hughes and now think that it's just a coincidence but the postings for that and the Hughes Family may mean something to PhilMick
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I have found Ellen Elizabeth Byatt's birth in 1900 Dilhorne, Staffordshire. Her family are living at Godley Brook, Dilhorne, Blyth Bridge, Staffordshire on the 1901&1911 Census. Father William Byatt Coal Miner/Hewer born 1870 Tean, Staffordshire. Mother Harriet Ann Byatt born 1871 Cheadle, Staffordshire & 9 children including Ellen.
Hugo the people living at Baron Hill, Great Orme in 1911 are Robert Hughes born 1836 Llangefni, his wife Ann born 1840 Llandudno & son William born 1887 Llandudno, I can't see a connection though.
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You're right Meleri, it appears that it's no more than a coincidence. It's a shame really because it's nice to link up families on the forum.
I don't subscribe to Ancestry or FMP so I use the computer in the Archives if I'm looking for someone but haven't done so for William Herbert yet.
It's still a mystery for him after 1922 but I'm sure something will come to light in the future.
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Hugo/Meleri - I also had a look in St Paul's baptism register in case they had any children who were Christened in the church but couldn't see anything. Maybe they moved away ?
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Cambrian, that is a possibility and after the aftermath of WW 1 they could even have emigrated. However with William's full name and DOB the mystery should be traceable on a computer.
In the Conwy Archives there are a few things missing such as Burial Indexes and the Archivists think that these records may be elsewhere with the boundary changes.
As with a lot of searches sometimes a bit of luck is needed and then things fall into place.
Meleri, I did find a record of a William Herbert Hughes in the Colwyn Bay Street index. In 1929 he lived at Colwyn Terrace Old Colwyn and in 1939 and 1955 there was a WHH living in Endsleigh Road Old Colwyn.
Is there any way other than a Register of Electors that we can check on that person?
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Hi
Can't find any links to our Hughes family of Baron Hill.
William Byatt is father of a family in Dilhorne - just east of Stoke.
It's interesting that he, and some of the sons, were coal miners. Is this linked to the copper mines in some way? I can't find answer to why Ellen Elizabeth was living at Baron Hill.
Also, interesting that William's marriage address is 7 Alexander Road - his sister's husband, Joseph Herbert Hodson, at this address also came from the same area of Stoke.
Incidently, William's mother, Mary Grace Jones, was born at Ty Newydd, on the Orme, on the 25th September 1864. Her parents were from Abergwyngreggan and Llangwstennin.
The plot thickens.
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Cambrian & Hugo I think you could be right about them moving away or emigrating.
There is only 1 William Hughes on the register for the whole of Britain with that Birth date, but his middle name is O. Occupation ARP Sandbagger and it states he is single. He is living in the same house as a married woman Kate Barber.
Perhaps if we had Ellen's full date of birth we would have had more chance of finding her.
Hugo I have looked for the WHH on the 1939 register you mention living in Endsleigh Road, Old Colwyn but no luck and I have no way of checking the 1929 Colwyn Terrace find, sorry.
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I managed an hour in the Llandudno archive when we visited on Tuesday - it's better than a sweetie shop.
We looked into what family members were 1WW soldiers:
My wife's grandmother, Jane Hughes, side of the family living at 15 Alexander Road where:
Hugh Jones originally of Bryngwran. This was Jane's first husband. Killed on the 23rd July 1917, Near Arrass, Pays de Calais. He's on the Llandudno roll of Honour but is on Bryngwran's war memorial.
Her brothers: John Howard, William Herbert and Robert Edward also served and are on the Llandudno roll of honour.
Jane later married William Owen of 147 Mostyn Street, he served at and survived Gallipoli.
William's brother Enoch Owen was killed on the 27 July 1916. He's buried at Abbeville, Departement de la Somme, Picardie. Enoch is on the war memorial and the roll of honour.
Two more brothers also served John Edward and Edward (Ned) Owen. These are on the Llandudno Roll of Honour.
There is a William Owen on the memorial but he is from a different family.
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William and Ellen's marriage record shows that Ellen was 23 on her marriage date of 25 Oct 1922?
However, Free BMD gives 1st quarter of 1900?
I cant find anything post their wedding date.
There a few tree's on Ancestry that refer to Ellen but none show her dob, marriage or death - so, I think possibly emigrated.
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PhilMick, I was in the Archives today and there's a lot of info to look at but unfortunately didn't get anything about William Herbert,
Those Street Indexes I have referred to only list one person living at an address and in the one I looked at J H Hodson a baker was living at 7 Alexandra Road.
What I was really after was the Register of Electors for any year from 1939 to 1955 as there was a William Herbert Hughes living in Endsleigh Road Old Colwyn during those years and if there was an Ellen Elizabeth living there too then there would be a good chance that they are your relatives.
Unfortunately the Archives do not have the records for that area and couldn't tell me where I could find them.
The National Library in Aberystwyth may have the records but before any contact is made it would be better to find out exactly which ward Endsleigh Road would be in.
I tried the computers but drew a blank there too
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Hugo - I suspect the Electoral Registers for Colwyn Bay post war will be at the Denbighshire Archives in Ruthin. As there was no Archive in what became Conwy CBC in 1996, Colwyn Borough sent much material there including pre-1974 records of predecessor authorities. Incidentally, as you will probably know, there is a great deal of Conwy's material in Ruthin, Denbigh and Caernarfon archives. I think they have been persuaded to transfer some to Conwy but by no means all.
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Cambrian, you are probably right with that. A lot of stuff relating to Colwyn Bay in particular went there and it's a shame because the Burial Indexes are a useful means of research and the only one in the Conwy Archives for the Colwyn Bay area is a Burial Index for St Catherine's in Old Colwyn.
Those Register of Electors I was looking for could also have been helpful here.
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HI Folks,
You're right Meleri, it appears that it's no more than a coincidence. It's a shame really because it's nice to link up families on the forum.
I don't subscribe to Ancestry or FMP so I use the computer in the Archives if I'm looking for someone but haven't done so for William Herbert yet.
It's still a mystery for him after 1922 but I'm sure something will come to light in the future.
i have no info on ms Byatt, or william herbert Hughes in my tree, it does seem a co incidence at this time...... and my william Hughes son of robert is also on a memorial at glodaeth st. (cant work out if he died or lived!) He was living at baron hill in 1914. watching this topic with interest.
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Karen - where is the memorial?
Phil
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Is he the same William Hughes of Spencer Cottage whose name is on the Cenotaph on Llandudno Promenade?
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No - he's different.
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Karen - where is the memorial?
Phil
Phil,
i found it online, see link below. my william hughes of Baron Hill, and there is also a WH hughes 15 madoc street, where the actual memorial is i believe is Glodaeth Street. Llandudno. (my welsh is not so good as to what it actually says,lol) .
http://www.conwy.gov.uk/drwardetl.asp?cat=2435&doc=2710&mid=23&mid1=23 (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/drwardetl.asp?cat=2435&doc=2710&mid=23&mid1=23)
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Are these the names of men who died or those that survived ?
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I think this is a memorial at Seilo Chapel. It only records members of the Welsh Presbyterian chapels in Llandudno and so is not an exhaustive list of everyone who served in WW1 from Llandudno.
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I have just come across this thread and thought I would look to see if I could find any information on William Herbert Hughes after 1922.
There is a Family Tree on Ancestry for William Herbert Hughes born 29 April 1896, Liverpool, plus for his wife, Ellen Elizabeth Byatt, born 1900, Godley Brook, Dilhorne, Staffs. This ends in 1922 on his marriage.
There is no further information after this date, same for his wife. It shows "death unknown". I cannot find a death for his wife either. I tried a search to see if there were any births registered for children, surname Hughes, mother's maiden name Byatt, nothing came up on FreeBMD.
It looks likely that they emigrated, or left the Llandudno area at least. The Llandudno Street Directories, or Commercial, directories may reveal where the family members lived over the years. These are held in Llandudno library as well as the archives.
The Family Tree shows William Herbert Hughes had siblings as follows:
John Howard Jones Hughes 1885-1937
Margaret Ann Hughes 1887-1956
Gwladys Hughes 1890-1959
Jane Hughes 1894-1928
Robert Edward Hughes 1899-1937
Gwenneth Myfanwy Hughes 1904-1981
Alun Aled Hughes 1905-1954
The siblings all died in North Wales, Jane in Llandudno, John in Conwy, Robert in Llandudno, Alun in Caernarfon, Margaret in Llandudno (shown as having died at 15 Alexandra Road, Llandudno)Gwladys in Conwy, Gwenneth in Llandudno.
I don't know if you have tried to trace the descendants of the siblings to see if they can help with information on William Herbert Hughes.
It occurred to me that you may be the person with the tree on Ancestry, so apologies if I have provided information you have already.
Helig.
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Helig, that's a lot of info that you have provided but William Herbert Hughes is still elusive after 1922. It isn't a common name for this area but I did find a William Herbert Hughes in the Street Indexes who lived in Old Colwyn from 1939 to 1955. Unfortunately I can't see the Register of Electors for those periods. I think that they are in Denbigh Archives but I never go there.
You mentioned emigration, and I did see two William Herbert Hughes' who emigrated soon after 1922 but couldn't follow them up as they were on Ancestry and I don't subscribe to that.
So for the time being it still remains a mystery.
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It's my wife's family tree. Jane Hughes is her maternal grandmother. Her ggm, Mary Grace (Jones), is the daughter of a Llandudno family - born at Ty Newydd during 1864. She married an Yasceifiog man, John William, in 1884 at Holywell. Some of the children were born in Holywell, and some in Toxteth Liverpool. The family moved from Toxteth to Llandudno, 7 Alexander Road, around 1906/07.
Finding anything about William and Ellen after their marriage in 1922 has proved unsuccessful. No children registered and no deaths registerd - that I and others can find.
The positive side is that I have lots more information now after asking the forum.
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We are inteested in finding more about William's 1WW military history and also his brothers: John Howard Jones Hughes; and Robert Edward Hughes. Aled, would have been too young.
If anyone can help I'll post what we have so far.
Phil
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Post above should read 15 Alexander Road
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The situation with William Herbert Hughes and his wife suggests they disappeared from the UK records after they married. Since we cannot find any deaths for them, it is possible they emigrated. The question is where?
Hugo, did you get any information as to where the 2 people of that name went to when you say you saw details of their emigration? I have looked on Ancestry but cannot find anything for a William Herbert Hughes bc1896.
I wondered whether other family members might have information on what happened to him. I had a relative marry in 1899, then emigrated to Canada with her husband shortly afterwards. It is only the fact that I remembered my mother saying she had been told they emigrated to Canada that I managed to find them in the records. Their name was Davies, they left from Machynlleth, so the name was very common in the records.
Helig.
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Helig - sorry there's no one alive to help.
I'm going to look in the Stoke and Stafford archives as Ellen came from this area. I've tried the Byatt family trees but there's nothing there to help.
One line of enquiry I hope to look at is the military. William enlisted in 1914 and did a 5.5 year stint. He joined the TA in Llandudno on 1/11/21 for 12 months. His marriage to Ellen was 3/10/1922 and I wonder if the marriage date is related to something he was going to do after his one year contract was complete. Please see Meleri's post above - post 11.
I'm off abroad tomorrow so I may be slow in replying if needed.
Thanks
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Helig, I'm afraid that I didn't make any notes and can't even remember the site I looked at but I think one was to South Africa and the other to Canada.
I'll have another try and will make notes next time and by the time PhilMick comes back from the sunshine we might have some more answers for him.
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The military records for John Howard Jones Hughes show that he was discharged on 5 December 1917 at age 32. His rank was Private and he served in the Labour Corps, 362 company. Regimental number 216639. He was discharged in Nottingham. His trade is shown as Newsagent. His intended place of residence on discharge given as 15 Alexandra Road, Llandudno. The reason for discharge was that he was "no longer physically fit for war service". His conduct is shown as "good". The above information was from his Army WW1 pension record which is on Ancestry.
There is a Family Tree which shows he was discharged for an "internal derangement of the left knee (congenital)".
Helig.
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I tried some of those ads that keep popping up on the computer such as free War Records and Free Ancestry but it turns out that nothing was free so I soon came out of them.
One search did show a W H Hughes b 1896 departed Liverpool 1925 and emigrated to Bombay India but there was nothing else to link it to William Herbert Hughes.
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I have looked your W H Hughes up Hugo and it's not our man :( He was an Army Officer, home address The Gables, Abergavenny. What a brick wall this one is.
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Thanks for that Meleri, it's a tough nut to crack this one. I called at the Archives today and had a look in the 1922 editions of the Llandudno Advertiser and the NWWN but no mention of the wedding in either paper!
Sometimes those notices do give some leads but not in this case.
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I have searched Ancestry but cannot find any emigration travel records that are definitely for William Herbert Hughes. There are very many for William Hughes but it would take for ever to research them all.
There are people with this family in their trees on Genes Reunited. I am a member of this and a search of other members' trees for this family shows quite a few people who have them in their lines. It is possible to make contact with these people but this might be better for PhilMick to pursue.
Something that struck me as odd was that on the page for Robert Edward Hughes on one Ancestry Family Tree, it has a photo of his gravestone in St Tudno's, he was buried with J Herbert Hodson d1929, aged 37 and Margaret Ann Hodson d1958, aged 68. I looked some more and found that Margaret Ann Hughes, sister of Robert, married Joseph Herbert Hodson. So Robert was buried with his sister and her husband.
Margaret Hughes had two children with her husband, Joseph Hodson. A son was born and died in 1916, a daughter,Margery Joyce Hodson born 1917 (7 Alexandra Road) and died 1994 in The Great Orme Nursing Home, Great Orme's Road. Margery married Roland Albert Heath who died in Chester in 1996.
The family has such strong connection with Llandudno and Alexandra Road, there must be at least a few local people who would have knowledge of them. Whether anyone knows about William Herbert Hughes is another matter.
Helig.
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I have looked your W H Hughes up Hugo and it's not our man :( He was an Army Officer, home address The Gables, Abergavenny. What a brick wall this one is.
Hi Meleri, after some time to think about it, I'm a bit puzzled by this. A William Herbert Hughes did live at Endsleigh Road Old Colwyn from 1939 to 1955 at least and prior to 1939 there was a person of that name living in another address in Old Colwyn.
What puzzles me is why was Wm Herbert Hughes shown as living in Old Colwyn for at least over 26 years ( inc 1929 street index) if his home address was Abergavenny?
It is just as you say hitting a brick wall.
The Register Of Electors for Colwyn Bay is in the Ruthin Archives but I'm not likely to be going there in the near future. What I was hoping to see was the record of his wife because if she was called Ellen (Eleanor) Elizabeth it would be a coincidence, although not conclusive proof.
The best bet would be if there was a present day family member who could see these postings and help to fill in the gaps
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I'm sorry Hugo I haven't explained myself properly. What I was trying to say was the W H Hughes you mention you found in the free search wasn't the William we have been looking for. The one emigrating to Bombay states his home address was Abergavenny.
Good idea to try and find information from the wedding as in the past I have found loads of really good information from the NNWN articles, but sadly you didn't find anything this time. I have tried looking at local newspapers on-line but nothing there either. :(
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Thanks for the explanation Meleri, fingers crossed that something will turn up soon.
Hope that the meeting in Conwy last night was positive, I've heard no feedback on how it went.
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The other possible method of finding some more information might be to try a post, or posts, on Roots Chat. They have some good researchers and I have had some good results on that site. There is a Military Board which has some very knowledgeable contributors too. It might be better for PhilMick to pursue this if he wants to.
Helig.
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It might be an idea for PhilMick to make contact with the person who has the Penmon.org website http://www.penmon.org/ (http://www.penmon.org/) He has a contact who specialises in Welsh military history, the Royal Welsh are his specific interests.
The Royal Welsh Fusiliers have their regimental museum in Caernarfon Castle which may be another source of information on the service history of WHH.
http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/ (http://www.rwfmuseum.org.uk/)
Helig
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Those are good sites Helig $good$
After PhilMick comes back after his holidays in the Sun he'll be able to follow them up and hopefully have some luck with the search.
It'll be interesting to see how this search goes.
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I have had a few e-mails from a good friend of mine who is keen on family history and he has been following this story with interest.
Like all family history you have to establish conclusively that the details are correct before you can say that they are the person you are looking for.
This person may or may not be a relative as that hasn't been established but this is what I've been told:-
Herbert Hughes and his wife split up in the 1930's but they had a son born in Old Colwyn in 1930 and his name was Herbert also, and the son still lives in Old Colwyn.
The father Herbert Hughes is believed to have moved to Rhos On Sea after the marriage split.
A birth certificate or a copy of a birth or Baptism Register of Herbert Hughes born in 1930 in Old Colwyn could rule this out as the records would reveal the names of the parents or it could just add to the mystery
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I have searched for a birth registration which would support this information but was unsuccessful in finding anything. There are no births for a child registered with the surname of Hughes, mother's maiden name Byatt for any of the years 1922-1939.
The information may be worth pursuing as it is a local source and there must be some people living in the area who would have known this family. The Electoral Rolls might yield some clues.
Helig.
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Thanks for looking for a birth registration Helig, it's a shame that nothing turned up. I was in the Archives today and had a search on their computer for free but didn't turn up anything either.
The Conwy Archives doesn't have all the records for Colwyn Bay and the Register of Births that they did have only covered up to 1914.
I didn't look in the NWWN because we have no definite date for the birth and it would have taken too long and anyway there is no guarantee that the birth would have been put in the paper.
The Herbert Hughes that still lives in Old Colwyn must be 86 or 87 now but if only we could speak to him then we would know one way or the other.
I'll have to go to the club to see my friend and see what else he has to say, all in the cause of research, I may add Z** Z**
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I have had another e-mail from my friend and he has advised me that his friend will call on Herbert Hughes and ask him for details of his mother's maiden name but this may take a while.
My friend said that he will let me know what his friend finds out.
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Hello Hugo,
I think you deserve a treat for all your research. It is thirsty work is it not?
I wonder whether the Colwyn Bay street, or commercial, directories would shed any light on the William Herbert Hughes and Herbert Hughes who live(d) in Colwyn Bay? They might show which years he/they lived there and where exactly he/they lived. I cannot volunteer as I live too far away now. I think the library would have copies of some of them.
Helig.
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Helig, I know where they lived and where Herbert Hughes lives now but the electoral register will tell me William Herbert Hughes' wife's name and that although it's not the conclusive proof, it will help with further investigations.
Unfortunately the record for the electors are in the Archives in Ruthin and I don't go there.
I'm hoping that we may find out more when my friend's friend visits Herbert.
I do go to Colwyn Bay Library now and again and next time I do I'll ask some questions there
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I've just had an e-mail from my friend and unfortunately this is not the William Herbert Hughes that we are looking for.
We still can't rule out the William Herbert Hughes though that lived in Endsleigh Road Old Colwyn in the 1930's and onwards.
The Register of Electors for any of the years 1939 to 1955 would give the wife's name, but the problem is that the records are in Ruthin.
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PhilMick, I haven't found out anything new but just wanted to recap on your request:-
I found a William Herbert Hughes living at two different addresses in Old Colwyn from the Street Indexes in the Conwy Archives. He was living in the area from at least 1929 to 1955. I have no idea if he is the person you are looking for but the Register of Electors from 1933 may show his wife's name ( I believe that women of voting age didn't appear on the Registers until about 1932}
Also the Burial index may help if he was buried with a headstone. Both records should be available in the Ruthin Archives
Now I've mentioned a Herbert Hughes who lived in Old Colwyn and again I've no proof that he was the William Herbert Hughes but my friend knows this that that Herbert was married and had a son also called Herbert and that Herbert is still alive today and must be in his 80's.
That marriage ended in divorce.
I have been advised by my friend that the surviving Herbert is still sensitive over the family matter and out of respect for his feelings I feel that I am unable to follow anything up now but just wanted you to know that.
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Hugo - sorry, missed your last post.
I'm still looking but no kids or deaths on Ancestry.
I came across another family tree for Ellen but once again no death or kids.
I'm resolved to accepting what I've got so far - thanks to all the help I received from the forum.
Phil
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Thanks PhilMick, but if I do get told of anything that may help you then I'll post it on here
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PhilMick, I sent this e-mail to the Denbigh Archives in case they could help:-
"I am trying to find information about a William Herbert Hughes who lived in Old Colwyn from 1929 to at least the 1950’s. It would be appreciated if you could advise me if the Burial Indexes and register of electors from 1933 are in your Archives.
Any help or advise would be appreciated". This is part of the reply I received:-
While we do hold microfilmed copies of the Colwyn Bay burial register for 1933 you might also be interested to learn that the church of Wales parish registers have been digitised and are now available to view on line at http://www.findmypast.co.uk/. (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/.) I had a quick look at this website looking for a burial record for William Herbert Hughes in Denbighshire but I failed to find a match. However, while searching this website I did find an entry for him on the 1939 census living at 56, Grove Park, Colwyn Bay. Other information captured on this census was that William was a widower, that he was a retired general labourer and that his date of birth was 28th February, 1870. I tried to down load a copy of this census for you but the website permitted me from doing so. If you would like a copy then you will have to go on line at http://www.findmypast.co.uk/ (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/) and please be aware that there is a charge for a copy.
I know that this person is not the one you are looking for but I had a look at his birth records and that Wm Herbert's birth was registered in Stoke Damerel District in the quarter Oct/Dec 1870. Does this mean anything to you?