Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: MissM on January 21, 2011, 09:32:09 pm
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Hello all,
My Grandfather, who was estranged from his family is believed to have lived in a hotel/B & B in Llandudno at 30 - 39 Clifton Street probably in the 1960's/70's.
He was Matthew Moneypenny and he was born in Liverpool in 1885. I know he married again while he was there and that he is buried on the Great Orme, probably at St Tudno's but without a headstone. I'm trying to find out when my Grandad died or anything about his time in Llandudno as I know nothing about him.
I recently looked through the Death records on Find My Past from 1970 to 1985 (in case he made it to 100!) but I can't find him there which has totally thrown me.
Someone on Rootschat.com gave me this link and suggested I post here. I would appreciate any help given so thanks in advance.
Lynne
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Welcome to the forum, I have a listing for a Florence E. Moneypenny at 39 Clifton Road in the town directory from 1969. I lived in Clifton Road in the late 60's/70's I don't remember anyone of that name myself but will ask my parents if they recall them.
A quick check of the North Wales BMD reveals that Matthew Moneypenny married Florence Hadley in Conwy County in 1944
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Hello Suepp and thanks for the welcome.
I am surprised to see that Grandad had married back in the 40's. When my Grandma died in 1974 his family went looking for him to let him know and found he'd remarried - a surprise to them as they thought he was still married to Grandma..... I presumed the second marriage had been a fairly recent thing!
Thanks for helping me find out more about Matthew. It's a shame he left before anyone could get to know him. It sounds like he was very settled with Florence so I'm glad for that.
Lynne
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Hi Lynne, my parents don't remember the name I'm afraid.
It would be worth obtaining the Marriage certificate which would give a few more clues!
also, just had a look on Ancestry and found a death record for Matthew Moneypenny in Conwy county dated 1950.
I find that although Findmypast is great for looking up the 1911 census, Ancestry is much better across all categories, and they are currently in the process of putting on the 1911 census in full, at the moment you can only search for head of households.
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Hi Sue
Thanks for the ino. I'll have a look at Ancestry and consider a subscription. I am using Pay As You Go on Find My Past at the moment to see how much I will use it but I maybe it's time to sign up to Ancestry instead.
I'll also check out my Grandad's death certificate as I haven't been able to find anything before. I looked at the St Tudno website but I think he might have been buried in the council part of the cemetery so I might try them next.
Thanks for all your help Sue, much appreciated.
Lynne
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I was in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno and had a look at the Street indexes there. Florence E Moneypenny was listed there at 39 Clifton Road in the indexes from 1957 to 1975 but neither were listed in the 1939 Street Index.
These indexes are also in alphabetical order and there were no Moneypenny's listed for 1939 so they may have moved to Llandudno after the war.
I had a look in the Llandudno burial records and they have no records of a burial for Matthew Moneypenny at either St Tudno's or Llanrhos' Cemeteries.
Just in case you are interested I have enclosed a photo of No 39 Clifton Road which in those days was run as a Boarding House. No 39 is the house with the open door and hedge to the front
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Hi Hugo
Thanks so much for your research.
I knew they lived in a boarding house but didn't realise it was for that long! Apparently my Grandad came and went quite a few times over the years after his children were born but I wasn't sure when he left for good. This would confirm it was after 1939. Life was very hard for his wife and children without him and one of their sons remained single, supporting his Mum until she died in 1974, not knowing her husband had remarried.... unless she did but never told anyone.... :-\
It's disappointing Matthew doesn't appear in the Llandudno burial records. My parents looked for his grave there many years ago and came to the conclusion he didn't have a headstone but they still believed he was buried on the Orme. I'm at a loss as to where to look now.
Thanks for the photo of the house. A forum member in Rootschat has also sent me photos of the road. They will all go into my family tree!
Thanks again Hugo for your help.
Lynne
I was in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno and had a look at the Street indexes there. Florence E Moneypenny was listed there at 39 Clifton Road in the indexes from 1957 to 1975 but neither were listed in the 1939 Street Index.
These indexes are also in alphabetical order and there were no Moneypenny's listed for 1939 so they may have moved to Llandudno after the war.
I had a look in the Llandudno burial records and they have no records of a burial for Matthew Moneypenny at either St Tudno's or Llanrhos' Cemeteries.
Just in case you are interested I have enclosed a photo of No 39 Clifton Road which in those days was run as a Boarding House. No 39 is the house with the open door and hedge to the front
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Hi MissM,
There is a lot of info in the Conwy Archives and some of it may be helpful to you. Sue has established from Ancestry that your Grandfather died in 1950 in Llandudno but there is no burial records of him there. From where he was living in Clifton Road the normal burial place would be St Tudno's but I also checked Llanrhos just in case but no records of either your Grandfather or Florence were there.
There is a possibility that they were both cremated in the Colwyn Bay Crematorium which is nearby in Mochdre but I forgot to ask where those records would be. Sorry about that.
It's such an unusual name for the area it shouldn't be too difficult to find out what happened. If I do find anything I'll post it on here.
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Thanks Hugo, I appreciate your efforts. It's a bit of a strange one isn't it? I'm really surprised he isn't on the Orme and I definitely thought Florence would be there. I'll ask on Rootschat if anyone is able to check the crematorium records.
Thanks,
Lynne
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Hello all,
I thought I'd let you know my cousin in North Wales has found Matthew's grave. It is in the council part of the cemetery next to St Tudno's in section X11, plot number 98. Curiously his wife Florence is not buried with him.
My cousin is going to visit the plot sometime but as I said earlier, there was no headstone when my family visited once before. He also wants to see the photo you sent Hugo so thanks again for that!
Best wishes,
Lynne
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It's strange that Matthews name did not appear on the computer or in the paper based records at the Conwy Archives, I'll take it up with them when I call next time.
There are two burial grounds in St Tudno's, one is near the Church and enclosed by a wall and is split into Sections A-G. The other is the newer section of the graveyard. I have plans of the graves there from A-L only, but I believe there is a plan of the graves at an entrance to the Graveyard and this should pinpoint his grave.
Florence's grave is a mystery though, she may have moved from the area or even remarried.
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Hi MissM,
I was down at the Archives again today and although they still have no evidence of the burial of Matthew or Florence Moneypenny they do have evidence that on 3rd June 1950 Florence E Moneypenny of Endsleigh Clifton Road purchased Plot 98 in Section XII of the Council Cemetery. I later called at St Tudno's and took a photo of the grave which is marked only by a stone without any visible words on it. I have sent an e-mail to you with the photos on it and enclosed a contact number for Rev John Nice who may be able to provide you with the information that you are after. Good luck.
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Good work, Hugo. $good$
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Thanks Hugo! I got your email and the photos. What a strange feeling to see, for the first time, the grave of a grandparent you never knew... I wonder what Matthew would have made of his grandchildren seeking him out. He did once return to Liverpool and waited outside the place my father worked to speak to him. He asked after the family and told Dad he thought of them often but he never got in touch again.
I've emailed the Rector and await his reply. The other certificates should arrive either Saturday or Monday. The picture is almost complete.
Lynne
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Good work, Hugo. $good$
seconded - $good$
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Good work, Hugo. $good$
seconded - $good$
Thirded - &well&
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I would 'fourth-ed' this but I don't know if that's a word... :D
Lynne
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Suepp and your cousin got the info Lynne, all I did was to take the photo of the grave. Would you keep us posted on what you find out from Rev John Nice please.
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Just an add on that I found in the Conwy Archives today. I found a notice of the obituary of Matthew Moneypenny in the Llandudno Advertiser dated Saturday May 20th 1950 at pg 5.
The article was brief and said that Matthew died on the Wednesday (17th May 1950) aged 65. He came to Llandudno at the beginning of the war and was formerly employed by the Inland Revenue at Llandudno.
PS A lot of the forum members will be aware that the Imperial Hotel on the Promenade at Llandudno became the headquarters of Britain's evacuated Inland Revenue Department in 1940 and it may well be that Matthew Moneypenny was one of the staff that were evacuated.
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Hello all
I have heard back from Canon Nice and he hasn't got the records of the Council Cemetery, only St Tudno's. He did offer to look through the funeral register to see if Matthew's funeral took place on one of the parish churches which is kind of him. I might have a little go at finding where Florence was buried sometime though, especially as it was her who bought the grave in the first place.
The info about where Matthew lived and worked is very interesting Hugo and adds a little more to the picture we're building. None of his grandchildren ever met him and had very little information other than he had left the family in dire straits. Now that the people he hurt have passed on, it is has been interesting learning more about him.
When I was in better health I visited Llandudno a few times and fell in love with it. It seems my Grandad did the same!
Lynne
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Back in the Conwy Archives the staff double checked their records and it appears that although they have the Burial Registers for 1949 and 1951 the one for 1950 when Matthew died is unfortunately missing. However they suggested that you contact Brian Hughes, the Cemeteries Officer at Bron Y Nant Mochdre who may be able to provide you with the missing info. His contact details are:- Tel 01492 544677 or by e-mail at brian.hughes@conwy,gov.uk
From the records in the Archives we found that Matthew Moneypenny married Florence Hadley sometime in the quarter of June,July or August 1944. The marriage was in the Conwy District and because it did not appear on the computer's records of Register Office weddings it is presumed that the wedding was in a church in the locality.
The exact date of the marriage can be checked on other computer sites.
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All's well that ends well. A fine piece of research Hugo. I followed this thread with great interest
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A marriage certificate can unlock a great many doors, once I obtained my great grandfather's I was able to trace the paternal line from 1902 to 1766! It will also have the addresses of the bride and groom. My Grandmother was residing at the North Western Hotel at the time of her marriage which I did not know about.
The inland revenue used boarding houses as well as hotels during the war, my mother has photos of the people who stayed with her family at theirs,
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My G Grandfather owned the Temperance Hotel (The North Western Hotel was originally two hotels, the Castle Hotel being the other) and then moved to Clifton Road more or less opposite where Matthew Moneypenny once lived.
The actual date of their marriage can be found using Ancestry and also the Register of Electors and rates books can give some background too.
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Not long after we moved to Clifton Road an elderly couple turned up with a suitcase expecting to see the lady who had previously lived there, only to be told that she had sadly passed away, luckily they were able to stay across the road with one of the neighbours who knew them well.They were relatives, It must have been a shock to see strangers in the house.
I have since found out that the lady who lived in our house was there forty years earlier in 1929. She possibly knew your grandfather Hugo as she lived on the same side, one away from the entry.
I can remember the day we moved in, all the bedrooms had fireplaces, there was a stone sink on one landing, gas brackets on the walls and a large range in the back kitchen. There was only one working toilet ( the other being in the back shed) I still have the original toilet bowl with an ornate blue and white pattern on it, I suppose it is now an "architectural antique!" When it was in situ it was "boxed in" , we called it the "Throne room". Naturally being the late 60's the house was completely modernised. The original blue white and terracotta tiles in the long hallway covered up by a fitted carpet!
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I was just wondering, Hugo....are the copies of the Weekly News in the Archives as well?
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I'm sure that copies of the NWWN are there Dave as I can remember looking for something in the paper some time ago. If you see something though you can't get a photo copy of it, so you have to make notes.
I wanted to take a photo of Matthew Moneypenny's obituary but you are not allowed to take photos although they will take one for you for a small fee.
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Another little update from me!
I have received the marriage and death certificates from the records office and added a bit more to the story.
As Hugo mentioned, Matt was in the Imperial Hotel with the Inland Revenue in 1940. This would explain why he wasn’t on the Llandudno records for 1939. Florence was originally from Wrexham so she might have moved there then as well.
Florence and Matthew married on 18th July 1944 in the Register Office of Conway Valley. As we thought, Grandad Matt was a bit naughty! He put himself down on his wedding certificate as a Widower which was a surprise as I was expecting to see Bachelor or Divorced! They both lived in Tower View, Cwlach Road.
At the time of their marriage they both lived in Tower View, Cwlach Road in Llandudno and Matthew's occupation was Civil Servant, Clerical Staff.
My cousin has had a quick trip to Llandudno and took some photos of each road although he couldn't pinpoint Tower View specifically. He also stood at Grandad's grave and took photos of the area round it so the rest of us can find it in the future. I think we may get a stone put in now we've found him.
Matthew’s death certificate shows he died at home in Clifton Road with Florence beside him on 17th May 1950 from Lung Cancer aged 65. His occupation is recorded as ‘Formerly a Messenger, Inland Revenue Department.’
So there we are. We know what he looked like, where he lived, his job, his wife, his death and burial place. That’s a lot more than we knew a week or two ago! Although my other cousin had a lot of old photos from her parents, she'd never looked through for or tried to identify Matthew before. We don't see each other very often but we're both on Genes Reunited and thought we'd pool our efforts! I guess the lesson here is talk to your living relatives before you go looking for the ones who have passed!
Thank you everyone for your contributions and enthusiasm!
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I looked in the 1939 Street Index at the Conwy Archives and Tower View is at No 6 Cwlach Road and Mr Rd. Jones is listed as the main breadwinner. I had a walk up Cwlach Road today and the name Tower View has been changed to Tower House.
I took a photo of the house so that you know exactly which house Matthew lived at when he got married in 1944.
While I was there I also looked at the 1944 copies of the Llandudno Advertiser but there was no mention of the marriage in the paper
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I'm sure that copies of the NWWN are there Dave as I can remember looking for something in the paper some time ago. If you see something though you can't get a photo copy of it, so you have to make notes.
I wanted to take a photo of Matthew Moneypenny's obituary but you are not allowed to take photos although they will take one for you for a small fee.
Just thought I'd let yoy know that they have got old copies of the North Wales Weekly News at the archives.
Also Llandudno & district advertiser. The older editions of this are on microfilm, the more recent ones-you can look at the actual papers.
Where these have not yet been bound, it is possible to have a photocopy, for just 20p.
If the papers have been bound, they are unable to photocopy them, but will take a photo for you and print it out.(Think this is about £2 or £2.50)
Where the papers are on microfilm, you can get a print from the machine-again about 20p.
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Thanks, Jackie & Hugo, really must make some time to get down there. :)
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Thanks, Jackie & Hugo, really must make some time to get down there. :)
Just thought I'd try to return the favour- because everyone was so helpful to me with my search for Roby House!
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Thanks Hugo for taking the time to take the photos of Tower House!
My cousin's pointed something out to me today on Grandad's wedding certificate. The marriage cert in 1944 shows his age as 53 whereas his death certificate in 1950 when it is recorded as 65... He dropped 6 years off his age to get married!
Seems once he got going on the tall tales he couldn't help himself! No wonder Florence didn't want to be buried with him!
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It's strange that Matthews name did not appear on the computer or in the paper based records at the Conwy Archives, I'll take it up with them when I call next time.
There are two burial grounds in St Tudno's, one is near the Church and enclosed by a wall and is split into Sections A-G. The other is the newer section of the graveyard. I have plans of the graves there from A-L only, but I believe there is a plan of the graves at an entrance to the Graveyard and this should pinpoint his grave.
Florence's grave is a mystery though, she may have moved from the area or even remarried.
There is a possibility that if Florence had been married before there would be a family plot with a space for her and she would then be buried with her first husband whose wife had also died.This happened to my great grandmother - she remarried when her husband died, but her second husband was not buried with her, but with his first wife. As you say also she could have remarried -have you looked up marriages to Moneypenny after 1950?
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It's strange that Matthews name did not appear on the computer or in the paper based records at the Conwy Archives, I'll take it up with them when I call next time.
There are two burial grounds in St Tudno's, one is near the Church and enclosed by a wall and is split into Sections A-G. The other is the newer section of the graveyard. I have plans of the graves there from A-L only, but I believe there is a plan of the graves at an entrance to the Graveyard and this should pinpoint his grave.
Florence's grave is a mystery though, she may have moved from the area or even remarried.
Just had a quick look on Ancestry - doesn't look like Florence remarried, however there were a couple of Florence E names marrying a Hadley in Liverpool -could be that her first husband died in the war, and she came to Llandudno area to work in a hotel as many did in those days, having to support themselves, and met grandad!
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Welcome to the Forum, Viv. :)
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Yes, welcome Viv. :)
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Just had a quick look on Ancestry - doesn't look like Florence remarried, however there were a couple of Florence E names marrying a Hadley in Liverpool -could be that her first husband died in the war, and she came to Llandudno area to work in a hotel as many did in those days, having to support themselves, and met grandad!
Hi Viv,
Thanks for the thought. I'll have a little look round and see what I can find. I've a week or so left on my subscription to Find My Past so maybe I can find something in there!
Lynne