Three Towns Forum
The Local => Ask a Local => Topic started by: Timbo1965 on December 27, 2014, 09:32:36 pm
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Hi all,
On the off chance, I wonder if anyone has any historical information about the house I live in?
The name of the house is Pen-y-Gaer in Penrhynside.
I'm interested in anything to do with the house including who lived here, how old it is etc.
Any information would be greatly appreciated :)
thanks
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Is this the Pen Y Gaer you are talking about?
Grounds and gardens associated with Penrhyn Old Hall (NPRN 16691).
1. This garden is depicted on the Second Edition Ordnance Survey 25-inch map of Caernarvonshire V, sheet 2 (1900). Its main elements on that map include formal garden and sundial. C.H. Nicholas, RCAHMW, 10th August 2006.
2. Penrhyn Hall is a sixteenth century house incorporating earlier fabric. It is set at the foot of higher, craggy ground on the north-west and overlooks level ground to the south-east. The changing environs are depicted on early editions of the OS County series (Caernarvon. V.2 1871, 1900, 1913, 1937).
The house declined into a farmhouse from the eighteenth century and was only revived as a gentleman's residence in about 1900. As a consequence of this there are few, if any, early garden features and few more recent ones. The site is now biscected by Penrhyn Old Road, which runs through the former farmyard (NPRN 31422), and what were open fields to the south are now built up or occupied by caravans. Behind the house are old limestone quarries and a disused limekiln.
A track leading north from the hall was formalised as a drive in the early twentieth century. A new lodge was built at the north end (NPRN 16604) and an existing building was adapted as a second lodge at the south end (NPRN 16855). These both have stone mullioned windows in imitation of the Hall, as does an estate cottage(?), Pen-y-Gaer (NPRN 16719), situated to the south-west in Penrhyn-Side.
A relatively small garden on the south-west side of the hall, which featured two sundials in 1913 & 1937, may originally have been the farmhouse garden
I've never heard of the place before but the late author Kenneth Dibble wrote a booklet on Penrhynside that contained a lot of facts about local people living there and a copy of it can be seen in the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno and may have the info you are seeking. The Archives are closed at present and reopen on the 5th January 2015
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Yes, it's as Hugo says. Dibbles's three volumes on the Penrhynside contains full details of the history of Pen y Gaer including occupants from the late 18th century up to 1985.
If you can't wait for the Archives to open, there used to be a set of the books for public consultation in the Cross Keys
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thanks Hugo, and thanks Cambrian :)
I have copies of the Kenneth Dibble books and there is some interesting information about the house in it, but some of the information is at odds with the limited information including the names from the censuses (spelling?) I found about the house in the Llandudno archives. The problem being that the house used to belong to Penrhyn Old Hall and the archives hold no records on the Hall that were relevant.
The information that you mentioned Hugo seems to relate to the Old Hall and not our house, but thanks for taking the time to look it up and post it :)
I know that there was a family living in the house during the war years who were evacuated here.
In the previous war the next of kin of a soldier who was killed in the war was at this address, but there is no mention of them in the war records.
it's frustrating to know names and information and not know the whole picture :)
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Timbo, the Land Registry in Wales may be able to help with details of previous owners etc but I'm not sure what forms you would have to use to get the info. There is usually a small fee for the application.
By the way, did you work in Rhyl or Bangor because the name Timbo rings a bell from some time ago?
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Hi Timbo, what was the name of the soldier?
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Hi Jack, His name was Thomas Anthony Graham.
The only information I have about him is from the link below. He doesn't appear to have any Welsh connections, and I'm not sure why his sister Mrs Backhouse was living here.
https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=116306. (https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=116306.)
Hi Hugo, I've never worked in either Rhyl or Bangor... there must clearly be an imposter Timbo masquerading as me :)
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I wonder if this has any bearing on the matter under consideration? I have a card announcing the death of Mary Jones, aged 87, of Mount Pleasant, Penrhynside which is described as "gynt Penygaer" (one word). She died on Aug 15th, 1918. I assumed gynt to mean "near" but I don't really know. Google translate says it could mean "once" or "formerly", which takes on a whole new meaning?
Just asking, you know... $thanx$
(My brother, who lives in Penrhynside, doesn't know where Penygaer is.)
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I can't help you to pinpoint the exact location of Pen Y Gaer but in the obituary gynt means formerly. I presume from that that Mary Jones had either moved from there or died elsewhere.
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Thanks for that Hugo. The card is peculiar in that it says she died on 15th Aug 1918 but appears to have been buried in March? At least that's what I think " Ac a gladdwyd yn Mynwent Glanwydden March 20fed" means. But then my brother says there isn't a cemetery in Glanwydden, so I'm totally mystified!
I looked at a Google map and found Pen y Cae (no "r") at the far end of Pendre Road, Penrhynside. More mystification!
My main interest in this is who was Mary Jones and why did my Aunt keep this card? She must have been close enough to want to remember her. I wondered if she was related to my Uncle, who was also a Jones (and hence my Aunt!) although he was born in Liverpool and his Mother's name was Lily.
I suppose looking for a Jones is Wales is kind of like looking for a needle in a stack of needles!!!
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There is a Cemetery in Glanwydden and I've been there dozens of times. It is on the right going up Ffordd Wiga (house called Ty newydd is at the start of the lane) It's a Baptist Cemetery and is so overgrown that I wouldn't advise anyone to go in unless they know the exact location of the grave.
In the Conwy Archives in Llandudno there is a plan of the graves. The people buried there are listed alphabetically and are easy to find.
I've posted some photos so you can see what it's like, the old part is like a jungle but the newer one is good.
I can see where you are confused with the Welsh language but the note said that she was buried on Tuesday the 20th not the month of March. Usually Tuesday would be Dydd Mawrth but you often see it as just Mawrth
As for Penygaer I know that it was in the south west of Penrhynside and because of the meaning of the name I suspect that it was at the top of the hillside, but I could be wrong.
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I checked Ken Dibble's books on this one but the result is puzzling. There was a Mary Jones at Pen y Gaer but he says she died in November 1900 and was buried in the Baptist cemetery. There was also a Mrs Mary Jones at 11 Mount Pleasant from 1910 "until after the (Great) War". These seem to be not the same person but it looks as if the Mary whose card you have is the one at 11 Mount Pleasant.
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Providing they have both got headstones the graves will be easy to locate using the Burial Index at the Conwy Archives. Do you know where Penygaer was Cambrian? I've had a look on an old map but can't see it, but Pen Y Cae was listed on that map.
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Hugo, from memory its in the "V" between Fron Deg Hill and Penrhyn Old Road.
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Thanks Cambrian $good$
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In the 1929 there is a Penrhyn Cottage home of Miss G Brookes listed between Penrhyn Hall Farm and the Lodge
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Thanks everyone! Especially for the pics of Glanwydden cemetery! $thanx$ And of course I should have remembered that Tuesday was Dydd Mawrth! (Long time since my Welsh O level!! :P)
Yes, Cambrian, I agree our Mary Jones would have been the one at #11 Mt Pleasant, as my Aunt/Uncle lived at #3. My next task is to find out if there was any relationship between them - ah, so many Joneses, so little time!
I shall be able now to crow over my brother for not knowing there IS a cemetery in Glanwydden - especially as I found it out all the way from Australia! D)
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Here are some more photos of the Cemetery. The first is of the old Welsh Baptist Chapel Ainon and the third is the entrance to the Baptist Cemetery
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Curiosity got the better of me so I called at the Conwy Archives today and looked at the Burial Index for Ainon Chapel Glanwydden. These burial indexes are alphabetical but only record those people who have headstones on their graves.
There were three Mary Jones listed but unfortunately there wasn't a match for Mary Jones who died in 1918. I could see the one for the Mary Jones who died in 1900. It was written in Welsh and briefly the English translation said " In affectionate memory of Mary Jones dear wife of George Jones Pen Y Gaer Penrhynside who died November 16th 1900 aged 30. Also her daughter Edith Mary who died 5th May 1913 aged 21.
They are buried in the old Cemetery at Plot A 17
The other Mary Jones who died in 1918 may have been buried in the new part of the Cemetery but her grave is unmarked as are many others in the new part.
Sorry that I couldn't find the exact location for you
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Well thank you Hugo for your good work - you go far beyond the call of duty! $thanx$ $good$
Made me smile a bit that "our" Mary may be buried in the "new" part of the Cemetery, considering it's nearly 100 years ago!
Maybe the family just couldn't afford a headstone...
Perhaps next time you are at the Conwy Archives, you could give Oliver a "Hi!" from Tasmania for me - he has been very helpful and actually put me onto this site.
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You are very welcome Jelly Bean, I'm just sorry that I couldn't get more information for you. I'll be back at the Archives soon so I'll say hello to Oliver for you.
He's been very helpful when I've gone there as have all the other staff too.
There are other forum members from Australia on here and also Jom who I think is in New Zealand and he has connections with a Jones family ( as we all must have! ;D )
If you ever want to ask a question, just post it on here and someone may be able to give you the answer.
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I saw Oliver in the Archives today and passed on your message and he appreciated it. While I was there I did have a look at two local newspapers for 1918 but there was no obituary notice for Mary Jones in either one so there is nothing more to advise you on about her.
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Hi Cambrian, Hugo and Jelly Baby.
Some interesting information there, and thanks for posting the card Jelly Baby and the graveyards.
The Mary Jones who lived here ties up with the information that I found in the archives and also the books by Kenneth. it's confusing though that there are more than one Mary Jones'
I'm glad I finally know where the graveyard is as it has often been mentioned in the books, but I had no idea where it was. I'll be able to fill in a few more gaps in the history of the house now and it's given me inspiration to find out more following the tips given by you all.
The house by the way is indeed in the "v" between Fron Deg and Penrhyn Old Road. At one time, it was a small holding and the land that Ormeside is now built on belonged to the house and I think was known as as Jonny Cae.
There is another house higher up in the village called Pen-y-Cae and that was also a small holding. So many Pens and Caers and Jones.!