Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Hugo on March 04, 2014, 10:23:21 pm

Title: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 04, 2014, 10:23:21 pm
Karen,    I was in the Library today and had a look at some Census records.    I'm not sure if you have this info but I'll list it below:-

The 1901 Wales Census shows the following info for people living at Elleslea  North Madoc Street  Llandudno

Ishmael  Hughes            Head    33 years      Stone Mason   born  Bolton Lancs              spoke Welsh & English
Isabel  E Hughes             wife      37 years                             born  Mountford  Salop        spoke   English
Margaret  A P Hughes    daugh                1 year                    born    Llandudno

The 1881   Wales Census   showed Ishmael  Hughes then aged 14 living and working at Tyn Y Coed  on the Great Orme   He worked for Peter C Brown a farmer of 80 acres of Tyn Y Coed Farm and Ishmail Hughes was employed as a farm servant indoor.

I couldn't trace Ishmael Hughes in the 1891  Census and didn't have time to look at the 1871 Census

Are these your relatives?       North Madoc Street is a name that no longer exists and I think that it has been renamed and may be Chapel Street but I'm not completely certain on that. 
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Cambrian on March 05, 2014, 08:32:36 am
Hugo, according to Streets of Llandudno, North Madoc Street was renamed Arvon Avenue in 1910.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 05, 2014, 02:43:52 pm
Hugo, according to Streets of Llandudno, North Madoc Street was renamed Arvon Avenue in 1910.

Thanks very much for that Cambrian.     $good$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2014, 03:54:30 pm
The first photo is of "Ellerslea"   Arvon Avenue ( prev North Madoc Street )  where Margaret A P Hughes lived and it's the cream coloured  house.
The second picture is where Southworth lived in 1929

Karen, do you know the middle name of your G G Grandmother  Isabel E Hughes?      Is it Emma by any chance?

The reason I ask is that in St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme at Plot No G 027 there is a grave with the headstone inscribed as follows:-

In loving memory of Harold the beloved child of Ishmael and Emma Hughes who died June 12th 1897 aged 3 years and 10 months.
Also Ishmael Hughes who died in New York Feb 8th 1916 aged 49 years.
At rest Emma Hughes who passed away 6th Aug 1945 aged 83 years.

The dates of birth are similar to the people I mentioned previously and I was wondering if  Isabel E Hughes was known as Emma Hughes.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2014, 03:09:47 pm
I called at the Conwy Archives today just to check on what I had found in my last posting and what I found confirmed that Ishmael and Isabel Emma Hughes are your G Grandparents.

In the Llandudno Advertiser dated 25th Aug 1945 at page 2 is the obituary notice which read as follows:-
Hughes  Aug 6th aged 83 years Isabel (Emma) widow of Ishmael Hughes late of Quorn Villa and dear mother of Margaret ( Pearl) Southworth,  3 Olive Tree Road Wavertree  Liverpool.
Interred St Tudno's Aug 10th.

On the same page under the heading of "Thanks"  was this notice:-
Hughes-   Mrs Southworth desires to thank all relatives and friends for their kind expressions of sympathy and floral tributes in their recent sad bereavement.

Afterwards I called at the old Cemetery at St Tudno's on the Great Orme and took these photos of the grave.  It was easy to locate being next to the gate leading to the new Cemetery.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 19, 2014, 07:45:51 pm
Hi there Hugo,
wow many thanks for your researches,  i believe you have got the correct info.
im not permanently on internet  so sorry i was a bit long getting back to you.

so the info on harold is intersting stuff for me because i knew he had existed but nothing else apart from he died,  where and when i had no idea except infancy.  so lovely to see the pics.  and the fact that isabelle (yes Emma) is also in st tudnos.   ishmael died in New york, and is buried there as you mentioned  in the utheran cemetry he lived in the bronx in the federal 1910 census.

 he went back and forth from Llandudno to first colorado. (he and emma married there). i dont know if they knew each other previously or before they went there. first around 1888 they were married in 1890.  then later Ishmael  moved to new york. (following a falling out with his two brotheres Ted and Robert hughes. that i have no info on at all.

 Emma returned to live in Llandudno and ran boarding houses/hotels starting off in ellerslea i think.
So harold was born in Llandudno, i wasnt too sure, about that at all. great find !

i had thought the 1871 census may have been my ishmael (he was born in Bolton Greater Manchester, but i would imagine the family is welsh in origin,  my nain margaret, used to tell me they were from the tudors/Hughes of Mon;  but that could be a little OTT and wishful thinking  !!! and its the memory of mine as a youngster her telling me).

by 1907 they had moved from ellerslea to 4 mostyn crescent  and it was called quorn house. 1911 census show margaret there, with the housemaid,   and her mother emma was actually visiting her parents in shropshire at the date of the census.  and in 1926  Emmas last will and testament,  said she was living at quorn Villa, Trinity street.  (the solicitors address was tringity street /sq  so i am not sure if she moved houses  and used the name quorn again and   or if its still mostyn crescent.

i have just recently attended my father funeral and managed to get some oldish photos of Emma, and possibly ishmaels parents taken in Llandudno at a place called Baron Hill Llandudno is written on the back of it.  of a mr and mrs robert hughes,  and the info i was given was that somehow,  he (the father of ishmael) was involved in its building.  so looking into that is how i found myself on this forum!!!

so i think i shall post this,  my computer is going to run out of battery, and re read the infos you sent me,  and see what else i can share.   
so  hughes family living in Llandudno  hunting the census recs  for a robert hughes,  without much else knowledge i gave up because that is guesswork at this moment.  but i do see there was a baron hill  in Llandudno.

be back soon;
thanks Karen

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: norman08 on March 19, 2014, 08:38:29 pm
are we related do you reckon  hugo
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 19, 2014, 09:19:57 pm
are we related do you reckon  hugo
to me you mean?? hello norman
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: norman08 on March 19, 2014, 10:18:51 pm
hi karen ,hugo and i are related  ,we are hughes also so we will see lol.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2014, 10:22:03 pm
are we related do you reckon  hugo

Karen,  Norman and I are first cousins and our surname is Hughes but I don't think we are related to you.   I don't know if you know this Norman but Taid Samuel's  father Hugh and his father Evan were from Llanengan on the Llyn Peninsula and they were in the 1861 Census living in Queen Street Llandudno ( now part of Cwlach Street)
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 19, 2014, 10:25:40 pm
also margaret was married from quorn villa trinity st. 2/21926

cert entry no. 75    at new english presbyterian church llandudno conway county of caernarfon. wales
marg 26yrs of quorn villa, trinity st.  llandudno.(her father ishmael,  deceased in colorado usa)
harry 30yrs of 8 mallow rd west derby liverpool musician cellist       source: marriage cert:
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 19, 2014, 10:29:19 pm
hi karen ,hugo and i are related  ,we are hughes also so we will see lol.

lots of Hughes in Wales  !!!  and out of it lol
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2014, 10:48:26 pm
The Conwy Archives in Llandudno has a lot of local info in it and it is a good source if you are looking for something or someone in the area.
I was looking at the original Llandudno Advertiser papers for 1945 but was going to look for info on your Nain's wedding in 1926 but that is on microfilm and unfortunately I was pressed for time and couldn't do it.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 19, 2014, 11:41:39 pm
i just been reading through the info shared so far that you found Hugo,
and you have a detail re Ishmael that he is welsh speaking,   i guess he could have picked it up on the farm as a youngster,  but i would more likely think he learned it as a child,  thus speculating that his parents were welsh speaking.   and although born in Bolton.  how did he choose to end up on a farm in Llandudno, may have come from that area originally.

  one would again speculate that perhaps his parents robert and mrs Hughes, just remembered her name. anne/annie owens b c1845 unknown anything else about her at this time. (Ishmaels birth certificate). may have been from N wales are or settled there later on after manchester.   and on Ishmaels last will and testament he has a witness or executor called John owen of avallon abbey road Llandudno,  could perhaps be linked to the same owen family as his mother.

comments  anyone?

and i also have a photo called the three neins,  in which one is anne owen, i am told . taken at pyllai/pyllau farm its hand written on back  "one of the lasies is margarets great grandmother and presumably her two grandmothers meaning the three neins of margaret pearl,  they are pretty old fashioned looking!!!  but are their any records of owens at Pyllau farm? or Hughes for that matter. does anyone know. they could also just have been on a day out and taken a photo there with their 1800 style digital camera  :laugh:

again thanks im finding these things exciting,

edit:  the photo says margarets great grandmother MRS Owens  so its possible its anne ownes her mother !!and grandma walton (yes my dads name is john Walton southworth) good night grandma ........
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2014, 10:22:10 am
i just been reading through the info shared so far that you found Hugo,
and you have a detail re Ishmael that he is welsh speaking,   i guess he could have picked it up on the farm as a youngster,  but i would more likely think he learned it as a child,  thus speculating that his parents were welsh speaking.   and although born in Bolton.  how did he choose to end up on a farm in Llandudno, may have come from that area originally.

  one would again speculate that perhaps his parents robert and mrs Hughes, just remembered her name. anne/annie owens b c1845 unknown anything else about her at this time. (Ishmaels birth certificate). may have been from N wales are or settled there later on after manchester.   and on Ishmaels last will and testament he has a witness or executor called John owen of avallon abbey road Llandudno,  could perhaps be linked to the same owen family as his mother.

comments  anyone?

and i also have a photo called the three neins,  in which one is anne owen, i am told . taken at pyllai/pyllau farm its hand written on back  "one of the lasies is margarets great grandmother and presumably her two grandmothers meaning the three neins of margaret pearl,  they are pretty old fashioned looking!!!  but are their any records of owens at Pyllau farm? or Hughes for that matter. does anyone know. they could also just have been on a day out and taken a photo there with their 1800 style digital camera  :laugh:
...

Karen,   now that you have mentioned the Christian names of your GG Grandparents it will be easier to trace on the Census forms and I'll have another look asap.   I suspect that Ishmael does have a connection to Llandudno and hopefully we can find out what that is.
Now another coincidence perhaps but we have another forum member called Jom who has been asking about his ancestors, one of whom was called John Owen.   It would be worth looking through those postings to see if there is any link for you to follow, alternatively you could use the search engine on the forum to find out about Pyllau Farm and the Owen link.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 20, 2014, 05:41:02 pm
Hi,
just read though the thread you mentioned,  interesting ad speculative thoughts rise even more!!
this one you posted include pyllau farm near to where, Jom's thread indicates possible owens residences  - Llwyn Helig

so it is possible that anne owen  married to robert hughes (parents of ishmael hughes - whom worked at Tyn Y Coed farm 1881 census) is linked in somehow to Joms or other owen families in that area. and the photo that i have at pyllau farm, (which i have tried attatching to this post, of at least two owen ladies and another outside .  interesting and i shall follow the posts of joms.

Quote
http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2078.15.html
im just making a note of the links here  to get back to.  because it will  bear looking into. when iv'e got a few hours to be able to do so.

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2014, 11:11:17 pm
The white building on the right is Pyllau Farm.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: jom on March 21, 2014, 04:47:19 am
Hello all,

As yet I know of no connection with my Owen gang to John OWEN of Avalon, Abbey Road.  (He was born about 1858) I am trying to take that John back to see his parentage as I keep running across him.  I have discovered he had a brother William Born about 1853 and sister Ellen born abut 1847 - 1851 Can't make her age out properly on the 1881 Census return Either 30 or 36. 

I haven't found them with any certainty prior to this.  John married Margaret in about 1886.  Haven't checked her maiden name as yet and they had at least 8 children 6 of whom were surviving in 1911.
These being

Gwladys, Morfudd, Buddug, Thomas John, Edward Goronwy, Dilys and Dwynwen
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: jom on March 21, 2014, 05:07:16 am
Just found John OWEN of Avalon.  Seems he is the son of Edward OWEN and Margaret ELLIS.  I believe he was well know in Llandudno for good works.  He is NOT a know relative of my Owen clan from what I have seen
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 22, 2014, 05:37:31 pm
hi Jom
cheers,  well we seem to know whom this john owens is, now. (the executor of ishmael hughes will).

Quote
Just found John OWEN of Avalon.  Seems he is the son of Edward OWEN and Margaret ELLIS.  I believe he was well know in Llandudno for good works.  He is NOT a know relative of my Owen clan from what I have seen

I also do not know as yet if he has any connection to my anne owen that married robert hughes 
thanks to Hugo,   their abode baron hill from some photos i shared and that he pay post  was  in St beunos road.
so im guessing i can check census records out for them at that address.   and see if i can get any links to other family members. (owen or Hughes)!!

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2014, 06:07:31 pm
Karen sent me these photos of her Ancestors and their home which is in St Beuno's Road.    Pyllau Farm is just above this street and Tyn Y Coed Farm where Ishmael once worked was just below Baron Hill.
There is a strong link of her family to the Great Orme
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 22, 2014, 06:15:08 pm
thanks Hugo for posting those,

the second one down has just fallen into place, looking at it.  after having a tour on google street maps  hahaha,
didnt notice it last night but now i see.   im just off to see if i can find any online census for them.  right now,

let you know what i find. 
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 22, 2014, 10:50:46 pm
update;

well i have managed to get the census recs of robert hughes and anne (owens)-hughes.
twould apear ann owens was born in Llandudno and so were a few of her children. more than i had known about!!!
Richard  1863 Llandudno
Ishmael 1867 bolton lancashire (manchester)
edward
margaret E  hughes  1873  Liverpool Lancashire
Mary anne 1877 Llandudno
elizabeth jane/A  hughes  1879 Llandudno
Robert 1881 Llandudno
william  1887 Llandudno
robert was born in Llangefni  in anglesey

so in 1863  they were in Llandudno and had a child headed to the northwest probably for work as robert was a journeyman stonemason  (and so were his sons mostly) for a while then returned to Llandudno

in 1881
they lived at pen y Buarth

 1891 census they are at Baron hill st beunos   
 robert hughes and family lives next door to a William Owen  also a stonemason from amlwch angelsey whom is widowed with children all born in Llandudno no idea if any relation to anne as not looked her up as yet)
1901  roberts family  still at baron hill. there is an older lady now,  margaret owen 83yrs  on census next door  living alone again no establishment of any relationship as yet,  could just be neighbours.

well i havnt managed to get back further than the 1881 census with them at the moment or births marriages or deaths.  but i am feel so grateful to all you here because i have tried to find the links on the hughes side for a long time  and it feels like another bit of jigsaw is falling into place. so if there were more hours to do this i would be smiling even more  but......   for now  definitley a Llandudno connection   lol  stemming over a century with the varying family branches    onwards   $thanx$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2014, 11:19:36 pm
Karen,  When was Ishmael's father Richard born?      It would help to know the year as I'm hoping to go to the Library next week and it would make it easier to trace.

I've posted the photos of  Isabella Walton and Jessie Southworth in the hope that someone on the forum will be able to recognise where the photos were taken
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 23, 2014, 01:34:21 am
Ishmaels father robert  was born c 1936 (according to the census recs)  in Llangefni  Anglesey
ive been hunting up on ancestry but cant find anything at this point.

i have traced a possible marriage between robert hughes and ann owen 
in 1862 ( the 1911 census)  at st michaels church, betwys y coed.  c/o  the welsh BMD only one so far that i could trace that seems to fit the bill.     

not come up with anything much for ann owen  apart from a possible 1861 census in st tudnos parish
other family memebers in that are
Mary Owens    59 mother
William Owens    23
Anne Owens    19
Cathrine Owens    16
Thomas Owens    12


but i cant confirm at all if it is her family,

and i am just suddenly thinking as robert hughes and anne  lived on the great orme still in 1911 at baron hill, they are probably buried in st tudnos as well. havnt found death recs either as yet.  i dont suppose parish records are available on line anywhere  are they?  (like the lancashire parish recs are).     
hugo you are a gem. 
and i am recorded out for the night!!!   thinks jessie simpson and her hubby jack southworth will have to take a back seat for a while  lol 
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2014, 01:33:40 pm
Karen,  thanks for the info on Robert and I'll have a search asap now that I've got those extra details.

With regards to the marriage between Robert and Anne in 1862, if it was in Betws Y Coed then I would assume that Anne lived in that area and not the Llandudno area.

In the 1861 Census what address was given for Anne Owens because in a book I have, Mary Owens was a farmer on the western slopes of the Great Orme.   I think that her farm was called Gogarth  ?  and was one of two in that area.

If Robert and his family were still living on the Great Orme the chances are that they are also buried at St Tudno's and that info may alao be in the Archives
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 12:07:55 am
i havnt managed to narrow down an 1861 census for either Robert hughes or ann owens.

they did not marry until 1862  according to the 1911 census records (1911 census  says how many years they were married).    and i didnt get any hits for an online search for a marriage on the BMd  apart from the one in betws,  but all the census'  write that ann owen-hughes was born Llandudno.

  so then im guessing the betws marriage is not them.  nor have i found any hits for robert hughes in anglesey Llangefni as i dont have his parents names  and none come up  to that place name.

so furthest back i have with any confirmation is the 1881 census for them in Llandudno. living at pen y beurth

ive just found a baptism record for their daughter margaret ellen b 1873  in liverpool,  and i am guessing as robert was a journeyman stonemason.  he probably went where there was work. as he was previously in manchester, when ishmael was born 1867 , all the other children were born in Llandudno and were later than the two i have just mentioned.  (richard 1863 was earlier before he went to the north west and a year after their marriage).

i feel, that anne was born Llandudno, and would have thought she would marry there.  but as i say i havnt got anything further back than the fact that son richard was born to robert and anne in 1863 in Llandudnop   via the census recs. 

or the name of anns mother ???  so it could be the mary you mentioned i will try looking her up on the census and see if theres any ann/annie as a daughter.

i was trying to find a marriage record that might have had the parental names on it.  sometimes it happens!! if the parish/church recs are available online.

i am just amazed at how much has come to light already. 



Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 01:12:31 am
i havnt managed to narrow down an 1861 census for either Robert hughes or ann owens.

apart from the possible i found below,  in which there is a three year age difference between the ann in that census rec  (19yr)and the later census dates of  birth - my anne owens is born 1840 thus would be 21 on 1861  so not sure if its correct at all.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 02:57:38 am
1851 census i believe to be correct for ann owen. see below.

nb in 1901 census there is a margaret owen next door to Ann and robert on the list, see attatched rec. living alone aged 85yr .make her b c1816. i cant read the name of the house but both are on the ormes head. and i am trying to get the record up in her name not robert and annes  but im having probs  lol
 
so i believe this is my ann owens family. 


 
1851 Wales Census about Ann Owens they lived at   Pyllo Llandudno.(could this be the same as pyllau??)  Father worked mines

Name:    Ann Owens
Age:    11
Estimated birth year:    abt 1840
Relation:    Daughter
Father's Name:    Edward Owens
Mother's name:    Margaret Owens
Gender:    Female
Where born:    Llandidno, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township:    Llandudno
County/Island:    Caernarvonshire
Country:    Wales
Registration district:    Conway
Sub-registration district:    Conway
ED, institution, or vessel:    2b
Piece:    2519
Folio:    166
Page Number:    11
Household schedule number:    44
Household Members:    
Name    Age
Edward Owens    35
Margaret Owens    35
Ann Owens    11
Richard Owens    9
Thomas Owens    7
Elinor Owens    4
Mary Owens    2
William Owens    2w
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: jom on March 24, 2014, 04:29:13 am
Whilst I haven't time to check this out right at the moment, the above family seem very reminiscent of John OWEN of Avalon's although the ages aren't totally consistent.

john was with his brother William age 28, and sister Ellen age 30 or 36 9Not totally clear) in 1881 at Milton house in what I think may be Gloddaeth St.  Will check when I can.  Didn't find the family readily on a previous search but would be the Ann Owen and John Owen link
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 05:02:58 am
definitely them.
1871 census of  margaret owen and family edward not present on this census but all the chidren are
live pyllo Llandudno
have two grandsons living with them richard hughes  and edward hughes (sons of robert and ann owens)
plus one grandson  thomas o edwards (could this be anne child to an earlier marriage or?  the other girls seem a bit young but??)

in 1861 census for edward and margaret owen and family
19 pen y buarth  parish st tudnos
one grandson thomas edwards   anne does not live at home though not as yet married to robert hughes. possibly married to a mr edwards
edward owen is a copper miner

so i think we have established anne owens family   next generation up
and i better go and try and collate all this info and names  before i write any more here, 
and get some sleep!

and that means the pic of the three nains of margaret anne pearl hughes
one is margaret owen,   one is Anne owen-hughes  and the third is likely to be ? 
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 01:20:19 pm
Whilst I haven't time to check this out right at the moment, the above family seem very reminiscent of John OWEN of Avalon's although the ages aren't totally consistent.

john was with his brother William age 28, and sister Ellen age 30 or 36 9Not totally clear) in 1881 at Milton house in what I think may be Gloddaeth St.  Will check when I can.  Didn't find the family readily on a previous search but would be the Ann Owen and John Owen link

Jom  from your previous comments of john owen  and his parents, i have made the connection through to him and it is the same family line,  (opened up a can of owens here!!!) john and My ann owens are sibs  parents being edward Owens and margaret Ellis.
 and its anne that married robert hughes   parents of ishmael hughes my grans dad.

and thus it is the john owens who was executor of ishmaels will in 1907 (his uncle).  alderman i see !!!
i am a bit on info overload  and trying to collate whilst i have internet on tap!!


Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2014, 03:35:08 pm
I called at the Archives today but could not find any record of a grave for Robert & Anne in the Burial records there but I'm not giving up on it yet.

What I found was:-
In the 1911 Street Index Robert is shown as living at Baron Hill, however the 1914 Street Index does not show Robert at Baron Hill.   Has he moved or died in the meantime?
I also found this article on Robert     :o
Naughty boy Robert    $smack$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 05:47:26 pm
naughty boy!!!

it perhaps runs in the family  because  as far as i understand
ishmael, edward,(ted)  and supposedly robert but it might have been richard all went off to america to gold/silver mine in colarado where they had shares between them.  however there was a family sipute amongst them and apparently the two others ran off with the money.   but as yet i have only just found the brothers  thanks to all your help. and some details on them,  so i may also with time fill that story in.
(its ok im not out to get them!!!   i think ishmael did ok for himself as it was!!)

well it would seem the owens lived at pyllau,  so that that connection made, and to rather alot of owens in Llandudno.

so lets get back to some hughes for a while  i have not got a death on robert,
i suppose he could have gone to america also and died there as a thought i can look into.

thanks Hugo   i think i will have to be coming to the orme one of these fine days  and  meet the ancestors  lol
catch you all later
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 24, 2014, 09:17:26 pm
Hugo a question,
were there any hughes living at baron hill in 1914 street index?  william lived with them in 1911 census
i note it is also the begining of WW1  and robert would be 77 and anne 73 going by the 1911 census

so if no hughes they may have sold up  i willl have a hunt around and see if anything crops up
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2014, 10:41:29 pm
Karen,  I can't remember the name of the person living there in the 1914 Street Index but it wasn't Robert Hughes.      There were a number of Robert Hughes' in the Street Indexes living at other addresses in Llandudno but there was no evidence in the Index to link it to your relative.

If they were still alive at that time and in poor health they may have been living with a relative and there is no way for me to check this but it doesn't explain why I couldn't find them in the Burial Indexes.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 25, 2014, 12:11:14 am
hi hugo,
no i cant find anything as yet,

and its also diffficult to trace up the children  and where they are in the later years.
but i will keep chugging at it,  at some point some clue will turn up.


and thats me for the night, cant think logically anymore and i have done hundreds of searches this past 24 hrs on ancestry. and i cant think logical anymore.  cheers hugo,  im off to catch up on sleep
 ;)
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 25, 2014, 02:52:19 pm
Karen,   I've been having a look on the Census records and also on Find my past but cannot find anything that you haven't found out yourself already.
For example in the 1841 Wales Census I was searching for Robert Hughes and although I entered the criteria for him, 3797 entries came up 
I had a look at a few of the pages but then gave up.
Sometimes you think that you have the right person, but as Jom has said and found out, you need definitive proof that they are your relatives before you can say for certain that they are the ones you are looking for.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 25, 2014, 05:18:57 pm
I came across this in a long and drawn out will for Joseph Evans of Shropshire, Lancashire & Wales 1817-1889

Conveyance of freehold hereditaments known as and called Baron Hill  EV/92/22  4th February 1890

Full details of the will are held by the St Helens Archives   localhistory&archivesservices@sthelens.gov.uk
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 25, 2014, 11:43:46 pm
Hugo,
yes i learned that one a wee while ago,   need things confrimed so easy to guess an get it wrong !!!
thus patience is a virtue,   you just keep an eye open for the clue to pop up and follow it through.

i started as a kid, i have a little book that i drew a family tree on  as a 12yr old, sitting in front of the fire at tan y bryn farm waunfawr.   i only took it as far as my great grandparents, and i asked questions but i didnt make notes in those days.  so i have been hunting up these hughes and southworths  for a good few years. i have patience,  and even if it has to wait till the next set of census records published in a few years time _))*   hopefully something will spring up before then!

 _))*i guess if i could just find their marriage, then i could get the certificate and parental names,  as nothing turns up for robert in Llangefni. (does it have any other names?  that come under llangefni, i presume if he said Llangefni it meant that.

but i was chatting to my mum on the phone earlier, and told her the story of robert and the policeman,  and she came out with,  that emma/ishmael had a relative who was a policeman in caernarvon; on questioning she couldnt remember anything.  maybe it was that one he ruffed up.  :D

and she also told me that it was ishmaels brother, that would have signed the burial papers for him in new york and that they had to send to his wife emma for the money to bury him, so i might try to find which brother that was !!!  as seem to have come to a halt for the moment on robert.
 
me mum has hughes's  as well from Llanberis way,  and they are as equally elusive. 

ive sent an email to the st helens archives re that will you linked to (after googling and getting that  it was the sale of baron hill to robert from the estate of mr Evans esq.)  to see if they by any chance have any more details on Robert other than the bit i found, in their archives and if a transcript is available, if there is. see that pen y buarth was also sold (thats where robert and ann lived prior to baron hill. as renters i would guess).

Would anyone know the maiden surname, of John Owen of avalon (the aldemans) first wife margaret?

so summarising wonder if baron hill was sold between 1911 and 14 or passed onto a family member.
where/what happened to robert and Anne in those years
info on their children,  where they went or married to whom.  giz a job i can do that!!!








Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 26, 2014, 10:41:32 pm
 _))*i guess if i could just find their marriage, then i could get the certificate and parental names,  as nothing turns up for robert in Llangefni. (does it have any other names?  that come under llangefni, i presume if he said Llangefni it meant that

Karen, it could mean the town of Llangefni or the Registration town of Llangefni ( in other words villages or towns nearby in that Parish)
I did try "UK Census online" last night and it said that it was free on the site so when I narrowed Robert Hughes down to 4 names and then asked for further details I was referred to a page that gave the charges for finding out that info     :rage:
I don't subscribe to them so it was quite annoying to find out that it wasn't free after all.

Whose marriage are you looking for?
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 27, 2014, 01:56:53 am

How annoying Hugo,
 free bit not quite  lol!!!

 the marriage (or its info!!)
of Robert Hughes born Llangefni, c1836.  to Anne Owen born Llandudno. c1940   marriage date c1962
 (according to the 1911 census records. no. of years married column).

  I would guess they married in Llandudno, as her family lived there.  but no idea if that's so.

Thus I could likely get the names of Roberts parents, so one could perhaps find his birth data easier.
and maybe where he was until 1881 officially.

 and that would make finding his birth and any siblings etcetc  and where he may have been on the 1941  census. 
i have nothing for him prior to 1881 census, though i know he had children born in llandudno prior to this date.

(her parents being Edward Owen and margaret owen nee ellis.)  who are also interred in st tudnos,   and Lived at pyllau farm. with some of their Hughes grand children)

do you think Pyllo cottage in 1851   is the same as the later Pyllau farm 1881/91 census?  or a different place perhaps

and is pen y buarth  anywhere near there?  im guessing it is on the great orme. i need a small geography lesson again!!!

and the st helens archives are going to have a look and get back to me.  will let you know when they do. and if there is anything useful from them.

so not alot new today but sorting through   ;D  but an inscription in welsh  of Edward and margaret owens gravestone in St Tudno's  from another person researching owens; cant read it but the salient dates i can see and  are useful   $walesflag$ 

edward died in 1863  and margaret in 1903; that seems to fit with the census recs.  i havnt hunted up death records on them as yet.  still focusing on the Hughes side of things.   :rage:

g'night  for now.

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 28, 2014, 12:07:54 pm
You've got lots of questions and yet more answers to find out Karen but you've done a lot of research already.
With regards to Pyllau and Pylla Farm,  I haven't got the answer but there are a few old cottages in Pyllau Road and Pyllau farm is at the end of the road.  The Census of 1881 may help there.
I believe Pen Y Buarth is on the Great Orme but I don't know where exactly, perhaps Norman may have the answer because he is an Ormeite
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 28, 2014, 03:28:07 pm
When I go to the Archives next week I'll have a look at the inscription on the headstone for Edward and Margaret Owens and translate it for you and I'll see if there is any more info on Robert.
I did look at Find my past on people emigrating from the UK but there are 42 Robert Hughes' listed and as I don't subscribe to them I couldn't go any further on the search.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: suepp on March 28, 2014, 03:45:31 pm
looking at the street index for Great Ormes Head. Pen Y Buarth appears  after St Bueno's road after the following entries: St. Bueno's School & Mission, Hyfrydle Welsh Calvinistic Church, then numbers 16, 17 (which is Baron Hill) 18 and 19. After Pen y Buarth is Tan y Graig, numbers 1 &2 then Pantyffrith 1-7 and Penyffrith 1-15 Cyll Terrace etc etc hope this helps
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 28, 2014, 07:01:19 pm
Thanks very much Suepp    $good$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 30, 2014, 04:19:08 am
thanks to both of you
yes it does help,  i saw some of those names on the census lists but that gives more of an understanding where they are in relation to each  othore and pyllau and baron hill.

im off away agin this coming week,

thanks for looking hugo  and suepp much appreciated.
i shall keep hunting up,   and and something will pop up it usually does, at somepoint.

and let you know if anything useful occurs !!!
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 01, 2014, 08:51:03 pm
After going to the Archives I went up the Great Orme to St Tudno's Church and on the way called at St Beuno's Road and took the photo of Baron Hill.
Carrying on to St Tudno's I found the Owen's graves quite easily.   There are two graves next to each other and directly in front of the open air pulpit that is near the old Church.   I remember reading a comment on the forum before that people of importance were buried near the Church and quite honestly these graves couldn't be much nearer it.
The Grave that appears to be on supports is for the children of Edward and Margaret Owen .    The inscription which is in English is as follows:-
In loving memory of Edward Owen the beloved child of Edward and Margaret Owen  Y Pyllau Llandudno.  Died Jan 12th 1858 aged 3 years.
Also William Owen the beloved son of the above named Edward and Margaret Owen  died Oct  7th 1887 aged 36 years.
Grave No A097 next to it is for Edwart Owen and Margaret Owen and is inscribed in Welsh.    What is a coincidence is that they both died on February 4th,    Edwart in 1863 aged 46  and Margaret in 1903 aged 87
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 03, 2014, 04:35:30 pm
thanks Hugo,
amazing photos  they couldnt have got closer to the church,  on the doorstep literally!!
just popping in,  not online permanently at the moment.

will get back to the search  asap.

the photos are great,  i think i need to come visit Llandudno and the Orme,  its now on my to do list.
so from the foot hills of the canigou sending greeetings;


Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 08, 2014, 03:55:07 pm
I popped down to the Library today and had a quick go on Find my Past and the Census records but didn't  seem to be getting anywhere.
There are two possible death records of Robert Hughes.  The first in the Registered District of Conwy in Caernarfonshire in 1916 aged 80 in the Quarter Apr-May-June at Vol 11b  pg 677  and the other also in Conway in 1920 aged 84 in the Quarter Jul-Aug-Sept at Vol 11b  pg 531
However I have no proof that either one is your relative and it won't explain why I can't find them in the Burial Indexes at the Archives.
Baron Hill is near the top of the Orme and very steep so believe me at the age of 80 it wasn't the place to be in those days and I would expect the family to have moved from Baron Hill.
I tried using Anne Owens name and found a marriage for her with a Robert Hughes in the Conwy Registration District ( that was the District of Registration for Llandudno then )     It was in 1861 in the Quarter Jul-Aug- Sept at Vol 11b   pg706
Now again I have no evidence whatsoever that they are your relatives but in 1851 the population of Llandudno was only 1,131 and by 1861 it would have increased a bit but the odds of a marriage to two other people of the same name would be remote.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 09, 2014, 09:05:37 pm
Hi Hugo, 
I was just popping in to leave you a message, that i just got a reply re the conveyancing of Baron hill. from the archives at St Helens.
its an 8 page handwritten doc, :o  that needs perusing and deciphering!!! at leisure. to see what it contains, gancing i saw mention of roberts name and also john Owens. im wondering if it was just land or if the cottages were there) i shall read up and see what is said. (i can send you it in an email if you, or anyone else wants to have a read. bit big to attach here KBytes  wise

 i shall follow that info up you got re Roberts Marriage, and see what i can come up with. i would agree, re not so many- people of those names in the area. and i imagine applying for those marriage certificate might at least clarify if its them or not. ill try and do that on the next internet connection time.

now i have made a connection with an ancestor of thomas Owens,  whom with John Owens, (ann's brothers)  had a building company.

 it would seem, to my mind, as Robert Hughes was married  to their sister, and was a stonemason   (and apparently built cottages etcetc) perhaps Robert and his offspring also stone masons, worked for/with the Owens building company. is there anyway to look into those sort of things in the archives? i understand owens building company is listed in the llandudno directory 1889-90 at anglesea, north madoc street.  and it went on succesfully for at least another 35yrs till tramway accdents!!  would there be any way to find out the company workers or associates or ???

well i can at least try for the marriage certificate of that Robert Hughes and Ann owens, as we know her parents names and addresses. to see if its them.


and hopefully next week i can have access a bit more time on the internet.

thanks   $good$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2014, 10:24:01 pm
Here is a very early photo of Edward Owen's building firm which had a yard in Back Madoc Street.     I wonder if this Edward was a relative of yours.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 13, 2014, 09:47:22 pm
maybe ??? its the same builders.

the info i got given re owen and co. builders - much of their development was along north madoc street and Bodhyfryd road. (over 100 large buildings)
including the Clarence hotel in gloddaeth Ave, the craigside hydro near the little orme and the Baths hotel.
also involved in building the great orme tramway.
 (their fathers name was Edward, but he died in 1863  and was a miner. and the building business was founded i think from what im reading in around  the 1890s. and their brother edward died as a child in 1853)  so it could be them or it may not be.

re the purchase of Baron hill lot 30  in a sale. the highest bidders were messrs Thos and John Owens,  13th dec 1889 for the sum of £55.00   which was paid by Robert Hughes (who was given ownership of all the land and the cottage known as Baron hill.

so it looks like the owens bros   bought the land and then transferred it to their brother in law Robert Hughes.  and my dad said he built cottages, there,  so ive attached the plan of the lot,  and im guessing that other cottages were built, in that area.

so searching for Robert and ann marriage today on the LDS  site, i came up with this which is what you mentioned i believe.  https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC27-FGR
and i think that has to be them,  its the only one of those names, in and around Llandudno over a few years span.  so i think i need to get hold of the certificate to seee i i can find out Roberts parents names.  come up with a couple of births in Llangefni today.   but without a clue of names its not too clear.   but lets see when i manage to get a marriage certificate  ordered.  i shall try to trace it up on BMD uk to order if i can find the marriage there!!!  lol.

time for bed said sleepy head.

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 13, 2014, 09:50:37 pm
just found this, googling  i guess this is who i got my info from  ;)

Fighting along the banks of the Tigris - Thomas John Owen

Thomas John Owen was a 2nd Lt in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers, and my great-uncle.

His regiment were fighting along the banks of the Tigris in Mesopotamia with the South Wales Borderers against the Turks, in the campaign which led to the eventual capture of Baghdad in 1917.

He was wounded in the battle and died on February 19th 1917 aged 26. He is buried at Al Amarah War Cemetery in Iraq, and there is a memorial inscription on the family grave in St Tudno's Churchyard, Llandudno.

Descended from farmers and copper miners on the Great Orme, his family were prominent in the development of modern Llandudno.

His father John and uncle Thomas became successful builders in the latter part of the 19th century, constructing several large hotels including the Craigside Hydro and the Clarence Hotel and over100 houses in Llandudno, and also building the track for the Great Orme tramway.

As Thomas was the only surviving son out of eight children, we can only imagine how his early death must have affected his family.



http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nostalgia/world-war-i-families-remember-6694793 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nostalgia/world-war-i-families-remember-6694793)
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Jack on April 14, 2014, 08:05:07 am
Thomas John Owen was working in Manchester at the outbreak of the FWW. He died of wounds after being shot in the arm in the advance on Kut.  Earlier in the war he been admitted to hospital suffering from dysentery but soon recovered and re-joined the 8th battalion of the Royal Welsh; the battalion to which he was attached.
Next of kin: John Owen, Avallon, Abbey Road, Llandudno.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2014, 04:11:04 pm
Hi Karen,   I was at the Archives again and looked at the Banns of Marriage for 1961 (see photo)  and can confirm that these were your relatives who got married on 24th Sept 1861.
Robert Hughes was living in West Derby in 1861 so he should be in the England Census for that year,  Anne Owens of Llandudno should be in the Wales Census for that year.
What I found very interesting was who read the Banns.   The writing is illegible and the Archivist couldn't read it but after a while it struck a cord.
I'm nearly 100 per cent certain that it says "The Dean of Christ Church Oxford"  and if I am correct then it is Dean Henry Liddell who was the father of "Alice in Wonderland"   that's Alice Liddell on whom Lewis Carroll based his book on.
Dean Henry Liddell was living at St Tudno's (by the pier) in 1861 and is in fact on the 1861 Census there.   Later on he had a house built on the West Shore called Penmorfa which was later converted to a hotel but is now sadly demolished.

I make no apologies for posting this photo again as it is my favourite.  It's a water colour painting of Penmorfa painted by Dean Henry Liddell
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2014, 04:35:57 pm
After finding out about the Wedding Banns I had a look in the Burial Index for St Tudno's and the inscription listed on the grave for Margaret and John Owen ( Grave G018)    was very sad to read and I've copied it as it was printed there:-
Dedicated to the sacred memory of the beloved children of John and Margaret Owen Avallon  Llandudno.  Richard Henry died March 10th 1897 aged 10 months, William stillborn,  Edward Goronwy died March 8th 1910.
Ascended to her own glorious rest at dawn of Sabbath Day Nov 16th 1924 aged 67 years.   Also 2nd Lieut. Thomas J Owen 8th Batt.  Royal Welch Fusiliers, the last surviving son of John and Margaret Owen Avallon,   died of wounds received at the Battle of the Tigris, Mesopotamia Feb 19th 1917 aged 26 years.
Nor blame I death because he bare
the use of virtue out of earth
I know transplanted human worth
will bloom to profit other where.

There appears to be no mention of John Owen though.

Anyway I drove up to St Tudno's Church and at Grave G018 I took the photos of the grave.  The first two are of the grave itself and the next is of the tomb next to it and then of three graves.    Those three graves are very impressive and are all  Owens so they could all be related somehow.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Cambrian on April 15, 2014, 05:55:58 pm
Well spotted Hugo.  It is the Dean of Christ Church.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2014, 06:41:51 pm
Thanks Cambrian,    $good$    I had the magnifying glass out but it was the Oxford that made it  clear and I remember reading about Dean Henry Liddell on this forum.
I think he was in Llandudno for about 10 years but I don't think that he was here when they did the 1871 Census
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Cambrian on April 15, 2014, 07:19:21 pm
I knew John Owen (Avallon) rang a bell.  His name is on the plaque on the wall of the Town Hall.  He seems to have been chairman of the UDC at the time of building.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 16, 2014, 09:01:52 am
Karen, as you know I don't subscribe to Ancestry etc but I was trying things out on the computer last night and found two things of interest.  Again I have no proof whatsoever that they are your relatives but as Robert Hughes address of West Derby was on the Wedding Banns I thought either of these were promising.
Robert Hughes born 1834  died 1912     West Derby
Robert Hughes born 1835  died  1920    West Derby

Perhaps that explains why I can't find him in the local burial or street indexes.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 18, 2014, 04:24:58 pm
Hi everyone,
wow you all have been busy as bees whilst i've been getting stented in the local hozzy!!

and bingo Hugo  you found it,  for sure,  so i still have to get around to ordering the marriage cert. will try and get that done this coming week   :D

ok so i will go re read and hunt up those census re Robert and see what comes though now.
one of his daughters was born in west derby Liverpool,  and  so
 i would imagine he knew that area. quite well.   i will get onto that tomorrow.

and the picture of the house is wonderful!!!
and thanks for the grave inscription and photo's,   yes he doesnt seem to have had much luck there.  and i believe he is buried with his second wife myanwe  in ???  great orme cemetary  is there another cemetary there on the Orme???  in about 1940  myfanwe was buried with him in the 1990s  sometime.

and for me its interesting she died 16th nov   i was born that date; different year howeer  ;D

ok im off to assimilate and lie flat for a bit, and catch up with you tomorrow hopefully.
happy easter by the way.   


Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 19, 2014, 11:38:10 am


and the picture of the house is wonderful!!!
and thanks for the grave inscription and photo's,   yes he doesnt seem to have had much luck there.  and i believe he is buried with his second wife myanwe  in ???  great orme cemetary  is there another cemetary there on the Orme???  in about 1940  myfanwe was buried with him in the 1990s  sometime.



That probably explains why John Owen's name wasn't on the grave.    There is only one cemetery on the Great Orme and that is St Tudno's, although that does have two parts to it.  The graves I have already found are in the old section by the Church and are within the walls of that Cemetery.  The newer part is outside the walls and on higher ground.
When I'm next at the Archives I'll have a look for Myfanwy's name in the Burial Index.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 23, 2014, 02:34:31 pm
ok so got the from ready to send to the conwy registrar to get the certificate (thanks to uk bmd  being down all over the easter weekend  when i had access to a printer sods law!!)

Hugo from the photo's of the owens group of graves you put up
Quote
Margaret and John Owen ( Grave G018)
Anyway I drove up to St Tudno's Church and at Grave G018 I took the photos of the grave.  The first two are of the grave itself and the next is of the tomb next to it and then of three graves.    Those three graves are very impressive and are all  Owens so they could all be related somehow.

i believe the far one is of thomas owens and his wife elizabeth owens (margarets brother in Law brother of John ).  because his descnedant sent me a photo of that grave and looking at the two photos looks like its same grave.

as or the anne married to a griffith at this time i dont have names for them  but its very very likely they are connected.  as you mentioned.

it would appear that Thomas lived at a place called Milton Lodge, according to cesnus recs which was next door to Avallon in abbey road, where John lived.  and that they were built by the owens brothers.

 i was also sent a photo of John owens headstone (maybe its in the second part of St tudnos grave yard?)



Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 23, 2014, 02:39:21 pm
oh just out of interesting synchronicity,
just had a friend pop round for a coffee and chatting about st tudnos graves and my family line stuff. (filling out the form for the registrar)  and he said,  bet they are buried next to my grandfather,  who is buried on the orme in Llandudno   an Albert Ellis -Jones,  (he took his wifes surname, she apparently  was from Llandudno)

small world really.  ;D
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 23, 2014, 08:23:22 pm
Well Karen, you beat me to it getting the photo of John Owen's grave.   I was at the Archives today and found the grave which is in the newer part of the Cemetery at Plot Y   No 74. ( see Burials Record)
I didn't go up the Great Orme due to lack of time but as you have the photo there is no need for me to go up there now.   I did however go  and look at Avallon in Abbey Road Llandudno and took this photo for you.    Avallon is now No 26 and is the semi detached property on the right of the photo.  If my notes are correct Milton Lodge is next door to it on the right just out of sight.
Thomas Owen was the other grave in my previous photo and this is a closer photo that I took at the time.

John Owen died on the morning of Thursday the 8th Feb 1940 and the notice of his death and also his photo appeared on the front page of the Llandudno Advertiser on Saturday 10th Feb 1940.   An obituary notice then appeared on the front page of the Llandudno Advertiser on the 17th Feb 1940.      Both notices contain a lot of information so I have ordered copies of the extracts from both papers and these will be e-mailed to me by the Archive people and I will post them on here as soon as they are received.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 24, 2014, 03:59:29 pm
Alderman John Owen            As the wording is difficult to read I've sent the original sized photos on by a PM
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 25, 2014, 01:36:23 pm
Thanks Hugo,
a few names to play with there !!   a couple of hughes are mentione an ET Hughezs and a William Hughes in the relatives mourning.   and theres a policeman from caernarvon that i mentioned earlier in the thread perhaps he is the same one my mum said.  anyway i shall mull over those and see what drifts up.

so re the other grave of ann and griffith Owen
in the 1841  census , trying to find edward owen and margaret nee ellis and baby ann that year
i find them possibly them living at pen yr ogof but with an ann aged 15yr  and a griffith aged 25.  that could be them i guess.
and on the same page is tow other groups of owens,  living at ty coch.
a thomas owens  with a babe ann of the right age.  there is also another entry for an edward and elizabeth also living at ty coch. as just a couple.  i guess they coumld all be the same family and that the child ann stayed at relatives, that they perhaps shared houses and families of living in that small area .  anyways thats speculations as its the only edward and margaret owen the show on the orme and i know on their marriage certificate of 1839  the address of edward is tan y ogof road.  so sounds like they are the ocrrect one on the census , and either the recorder has done some mixing up.  or ......  anyway  there is an ann and griffith as a couple  and i would imagine its them in them there graves next to margaret owens and thomas owens in st tudnos.

Entry 43  living at ty coch 
thomas owen 20 smith
mary owen 25
thomas 1
ann 2mnths

entry 39 pen yr ogof
Edward Owen  20
Margaret Owen 20
Anne Owen 15
Griffith Owen 25

entry 44 ty coch
Edward Owen 25
Elizabeth Owen 20






Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Cambrian on April 25, 2014, 04:22:39 pm
If it helps, Edward Williams was Chief Constable of Caernarvonshire from 1923 to 1939 when he retired.  He was a native of Bethesda and served with that force from 1895 except for two years in the "Met".
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 26, 2014, 05:01:58 pm
thanks cambrian, all info helps as one goes along.  $good$
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 28, 2014, 11:16:47 am
Karen,  just to put you in the picture,  Llandudno in the 1840's was a small village mainly located on the lower slopes of the Great Orme and around the area where the Kings Head pub is.  The occupations at the time were mainly Copper Miners and farming and the population was just over 1000.
Last night I was reading Chris Draper's book  "Llandudno before the hotels" and it covers the period up to about 1850.  In the book at pg 172 is a bit about people living there at that time and recorded by Thomas Rowlands.  I'll copy that article for you:-

" On the lower side right hand side of the road (Plas Road) was the Ty Coch farmhouse where Edward Owen and his sister lived.    A little further on along the same street was his shop, the only Butcher's shop in the place,  a small room of about 10 square feet.... Two or three hungry men could have consumed the contents of the shop at one sitting... Mr Edward Owen used to open this shop occasionally, once or twice a week for a few hours, but Saturday the shop was opened all day to sell the remnants of what he could not dispose of at Conwy Market the previous Friday"

Another section at pg `179  refers to a William Owen ( father of Edward Owen)  of Penymynydd Isaf ( known locally as Pink Farm)  and added that Ty Coch's farming activities were curtailed by the expansion of mining and although Edward Owen nominally occupied 12 acres the remaining agricultural land was remote from the house, with two fields on the Morfa and two at the top of Old Road.  Wisely Edward diversified into Butchery beginning with the small shop previously described.

So you know now that Edward lived in a farm house,  Pen Yr Ogof  ( Top of the Cave)  I've not heard of but must be somewhere near the farm and there is a street called Ty Coch Road that has some cottages on.    As regards Pink Farm where William Owen lived, at one time it was also a cafe as well as a farm and you can still make out the large  sign on the roof of the building.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 28, 2014, 11:35:01 am
As the town developed, so did Edward Owen's business and here is a photo taken about 1890 of his business in the main street of Llandudno.   
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 28, 2014, 03:32:36 pm
Karen,  I've just found another snippet of info for you from Chris Draper's book and it concerns Griffith Owens.   
On pg 198 of the book it shows the Llandudno Morfa of C1850 and the inhabitants living there.      The Morfa area was part of what is now the Promenade and Mostyn Street and people squatted there under the old Welsh Custom of Tai Unnos.
Lord Mostyn legally stole the land from the squatters and subsequently rehoused them mainly in Madoc Street.

Anyway back to Griffith Owens and this is how it appears in the book.
18 MORFA
Griffith Owens     38     miner              Llandudno
Ann         "           27     wife                Llangystennin
Elinor       "            6     daughter        Llandudno
Margaret   "           4         "                       "
Jane          "           2         "                       "
Owen        "           1        son                    "

Griffith Owens " a quiet Christian"  (Rowlands)   moved to the Morfa from Pen Yr Ogof where he had been a close neighbour of Thomas Kendrick around 1842.    Baby Elinor was born here and baptised at St George's Church on 8th January 1844.   The following year Margaret was Baptised on 21st December but several of the couples children, Jane, Owen and Ann died in childhood.      Griffith Owens was one of the last of the working Llandudno Copper Miners.

Just a thought but no proof that it's correct,  Thomas Kendrick lived in Tan Yr Ogof Terrace which is about 50 yards away from Ty Coch Farm but perhaps Tan Yr Ogof and Pen Yr Ogof  are either the same place or very near by.  If you look at the 1841 Census again you might be able to tell.
One thing though about the 1841 Census is that the ages of adults are not always correct as in that Census they rounded down the age to the nearest 5 years.  Example anyone aged 24 would have their age shown as 20.     ???      Don't ask me why.   
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 28, 2014, 06:39:45 pm
At pg 170 of the same book I found a bit concerning Thomas Owen the Blacksmith when he lived in a slightly elevated terrace of cottages called Queen Street.   These cottages were owned by George Brookes who was the Manager of the Ty Gwyn Copper Mine.    Thomas lived in the end cottage on the right and by coincidence my own G G Grandfather lived in one of the cottages according to the 1861 Census.
In the book this has been written:-
" In the fourth and last house lived Thomas Owen, the Blacksmith and his wife Mary, another of George Brookes' daughters.  Thomas Owen was the Blacksmith of the extensive Ty Gwyn Mine.  A quiet and unassuming man"

Further on in the page is written " in the same Street is Tai'nyfron and in one of the houses lives William Owen, (Gogarth)  and his wife"
It does not mention his wife's name but as Gogarth is the Welsh name for the Great Orme then it is possible that this is the William from the Pink Farm on the Great Orme, after all he was only a tenant farmer there

The photo is of Queen Street which is now incorporated into Cwlach Street
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on April 29, 2014, 03:02:58 am
think i shall have to order a copy of that book to get an even better pic of llandudno. 

so from your info from that, and my going though all the pages of the census 1841  for the upper township of llandudno enumeration district 3 !! (yes it seems everyone was a copper miner).

and i find tan yr ogof   peny yr ogof  ty coch all close entries to each other

kings head is entry no3  on the 1841 census of the uppertownship  (another william owen and family being the publican at that time)

 tan yr ogof - entries 33-35

 entry 33 a williams family, 34 jones family  and entry 35 Hughes family
entry 36 tan yr allt   robinson and jones
Pen yr ogof entries 37-39
entry 37  Kendrick family  (mentioned )
entry 38 jones family
entry 39 owens
as mentioned edward copper miner age 20  and margaret(nee ellis) age 20, and maybetheir child ann was not actually born as yet  and her birth wasnt 1840 but after this census sometime.  And the ageing thing would make them both the right age. And they lived with griffith owen whom was older than they were  25yr  according to the census which means anything up to 30 !!  and his wife ann 15 but could have been anything up to 20  and they are the ones you mention. Griffith Owens " a quiet Christian"  (Rowlands)   moved to the Morfa from Pen Yr Ogof where he had been a close neighbour of Thomas Kendrick around 1842.
Entry 40 is seowns or leowns   roberts  agricultural labourere  and lowe 
entry 41 is a shop  pritchard: and this could be what became the butchers  possibly

entries 42  43, 44 are  ty coch
42   jones family
43 thomas owen  and mary and family married owner of ty gwyn mines daughter mary brookes
44 edward owen and elizabeth  the brother and sister that became the butcher : father william owen of pink farm - penymynedd isaf

(if pen yr ogof is over the cave then i guess tan yr ogof is under the cave ????) :-[ i read the thread on the caves interezsting stuff.

thus from my previous post of the entries.

Entry 43  living at ty coch 
thomas owen 20 smith (married owner of ty gwyn mines daughter mary brookes )
mary owen 25
thomas 1
ann 2mnths

entry 39 pen yr ogof
Edward Owen  20 copper miner ( my lot)
Margaret Owen 20
Anne Owen 15
Griffith Owen 25 moved to the morfa with wife ann from tan yr ogof terrace which was by ty coch farm
   50yds or so could these be brothers ? orotherwise related, is to be discovered

entry 44 ty coch
Edward Owen 25 farmed ty coch became a butcher had shop down the road (on census there is a shop entry 41 )  father william owen of pink farm - penymynedd isaf
Elizabeth Owen 20

ok now i have that sorted in my head, 

 the father of my edward was lewis Owen from Gyffin (wherever that is)  whom married ellinor morris march 1807 in llandudno, no idea if there are siblings as yet, and lewis's father was a william owen married to an elizabeth edwards married feb 1760 Llandudno. again no idea if there are any sibs, but i still have to hunt these up for confirmations. and or connections to any of the other Owens above.

my form for the marriage certificate of robert hughes and ann owens has been posted now.  so hopefully your lovely folks at the archives there in Lloyd street, will be receiving it soon.  and maybe we will get the hughes line going back a generation.   and still havnt foind anything on the their children.  ah well  c'est la vie. it will happen at some point,
goodnight for now.













Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on April 29, 2014, 08:50:19 pm
It's getting a bit complicated with all these Owen's but your Edward's father Lewis Owen  was from Gyffin, which is just outside Conwy. 
Info about Gyffin can be located in the Conwy Archives but if you have any further info on Robert Hughes post it on here and we'll see what we can do.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on May 03, 2014, 09:55:06 pm
Hi Hugo,
I have just received a scan of the marriage cert  of robert hughes and ann owens
he was resident in Bolton Lancashire on the marriage certificate, and his father was also a robert hughes, also a stonemason.  and it appears to have been witnessed by a jane hughes,  and a richard Ella.

so i will start to see what come up from those clues re  Robert hughes bc1836
over the next couple of days.

your ladies are really lovely at the archives, lovely letter they sent me with the scan, and the certificate is in the post.

get back to you when i find anything more.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on May 04, 2014, 10:52:30 am
I'm glad that the Archives could help you there, so good luck with your searches.
In the 1841 Census I think they put the Parish down rather than the town or village so you may come across a few Robert Hughes' with a father of the same name.
I'm not sure about the 1851 Census as to what info is supplied but by 1861 you know that Robert has flown the nest and is in Bolton.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on May 13, 2014, 12:59:26 am
just adding this if anyone else ever comes looking for this family line of Hughes as i have still not got any further connections to roberts children (margaret pearl hughes aunts and uncles) mostly born Llandudno  as yet.

its looking very likely but not as yet 100% sure  :)

 robert hughes b1835 (whom lived  in baron hill, llandudno) was born aberffraw which i discover has the sub district of Llangefni. baptismal recs below;

his parents - robert hughes b1806  anglesey, married to Jane jones b1811 anglesey, 
marriage in aberffraw 1828

1841 census  aberffrow sub district Llangefni
robert and jane hughes with children
   
Name    Age
Robert Hughes    35 father
Jane Hughes       30 mother
Richard Hughes    11
Elizabeth Hughes 9
Robert Hughes    6
David Hughes    4
John Hughes    4 Mo

England & Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers, 1567-1970 about Robert Hughes
Name:    Robert Hughes
Birth Date:    16 Feb 1835
Birth Place:    Aberffraw, Anglesey, Wales
Event Type:    Baptism
Father:    Robert Hughes
Mother:    Jane Jones
Baptism Date:    12 Apr 1835
Baptism Place:    Llangristiolus, Anglesey, Wales
Denomination:    Independent
Piece Title:    Piece 4003: Llangristiolus, Paradwys Chapel (Independent), 1785-1791, 1829-1837

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on May 24, 2014, 02:46:03 pm
Aberffraw is a beautiful seaside village which hundreds of years ago was the main residence of the Princes of Wales.  It's a place where I've enjoyed many walks in the past.
Paradwys Chapel was near Llangristiolus but I think that it has been demolished now.  There was a large Chapel in the middle of Aberffraw but it has closed and has now  been converted into apartments.  Another old Church lies in a unique location in a bay by Aberffraw's headland.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on May 26, 2014, 11:13:41 pm
hugo,
you are a gold mine of info , and it is an interesting chapel pic on the bay.
and you give me the geographical's that make things fall into place for me. ie llangristiolus, now makes sense.

 i so enjoy your photos and (& reading of your walks, that you have made elsewhere on this forum).

so would be it be too ignorant to ask which princes of wales? im off to google and see what they come up with. (just the Tudors of Mon reference that margaret ann pearl used to tell me about as a child).
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2014, 12:03:20 pm
Thanks Karen,  that little Church is quite old and very simple inside and is an island for most of the tide. Here are a couple of pics from inside it.
If you look in the 1851 Census you might see a house name for Robert Hughes ( Snr or Jnr) in Aberffraw and if you do then that house might still be there as a lot of the property in the village is quite old.
There were many  Welsh Princes that lived in Aberffraw including the Llewelyns and they lived there until Llewelyn the Last died in 1282. Llewelyn had Palaces all over North Wales but Aberffraw was considered the main residence.  It is believed that the building was made of wood as no evidence of it now remains but it housed the Welsh Parliament too.
The Tudors of Mon that Margaret referred to were from Pen Y Mynydd in Anglesey I believe and I've copied this from Google:-
The Tudor dynasty or House of Tudor was a royal house of Welsh origin,[1] descended from Rhys ap Tewdwr, the last "king of the Britons," which ruled the Kingdom of England and its realms, including their ancestral Wales and the Lordship of Ireland, later the Kingdom of Ireland, from 1485 until 1603. Its first monarch was Henry VII, a descendant through his mother of a legitimised branch of the English royal House of Lancaster. The Tudor family rose to power in the wake of the Wars of the Roses, which left the House of Lancaster, to which the Tudors were aligned, extinct.

Henry Tudor was able to establish himself as a candidate not only for traditional Lancastrian supporters, but also for the discontented supporters of their rival House of York, and he rose to capture the throne in battle, becoming Henry VII. His victory was reinforced by his marriage to Elizabeth of York, symbolically uniting the former warring factions under a new dynasty. The Tudors extended their power beyond modern England, achieving the full union of England and the Principality of Wales in 1542 (Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542

Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on June 01, 2014, 02:36:43 pm
thanks pnce agan for the info,

i have looked at the 1851 census of robert hughes and jane whom is from bodern if its the correct family and the address in Aberffraw seems to be Pant y Caw/law/baw bit difficult to read.
but all this still needs confirming.

meanwhile i have gotten a breakthrough on margaret ann pearls  aunt Margaret ellen Hughes sibling of Ishmael hughes,  and daughter of Robert & hughes ann owens 1835  of baron hill.

Margaret Ellen b 1873 Liverpool (lived Llandudno).  Married a Robert J Williams whom had a grocers shop and whom died in 1905  i still have to check up on these with records, of the where

they had three children, edward rees williams 1898 Newton montgomeryshire.
robert williams b1900 caernarvonshire and apparently later was a coach driver in Llandudno
and richard glynne williams (known as Glynne) b 1906 Llandudno, married in Llandudno 1932 to Annie Gertrude williams.

on the death of margarets husband she remarried a samuel roberts and had a child gwyneth edna roberts b1910

So now i have a start in chasing up these bits and pieces as well. when i have a bit of time to do so.

i must take a photo of the mountains surrounding me to post to you, on the top of the hill opposite me at the moment, is the old remains  of mine workings eqipment for the pulleys,  and there are a few old forges to be seen, as this area the Vallespir, was also a big mining place in catalonia, in its day.  :)
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on June 08, 2014, 12:15:44 pm
Thanks Karen,  I am unable to trace the cottage called  Pant y Caw/law/baw as they each have different meanings in English.
When I search for houses I tend to make a note of the names of two or three houses before and after the one I'm looking for.    I'm tied up for a while or otherwise I'd go to the Library and look up the 1851 Census for Robert and Jane Hughes of Aberffraw.
If you can find 3 house names before and after your relation's house then  I'll have a look when I'm next in the area.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on June 09, 2014, 08:26:42 pm
Hi Hugo,

there is no rush or need to go looking for things, i just enjoy sharing my finds and if they end up being any use to anyone else as well at some point all the better :).
 
i have tried to decipher the previous house names, on the census but again i am not clear on the curly writing if its a C or L :

   i have attached the 1851 census  (it is entry no34 that im trying to work out)  and i will go and look at the page that follows  to see if i can work out the names.

entries as i can make out are:- 29&30 is Ty'r gwydd,    31 looks like pant y barr,     32 Clegir,
33 ??? (i can't read it well enough to decipher to  guess at the Welsh)

 and the one i am looking is 34,  as already discussed.  which is similar to no 31.  but looks less like a b  than that one. 

have a good week. 


Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on July 24, 2014, 01:27:44 pm
I had a look at the 1851 Census and turned over each page on the record and now believe that the house was not in Aberffraw.    At the top left of the Census form is the Parish name of Trewalchmai and in the first page it gives you the area covered by the Census and that is north of Aberffraw in the area to the west of Gwalchmai.
It didn't help me though because I've still got no idea of where the actual house was.   Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2019, 03:41:17 pm
I was having a walk on the Great Orme today and went past Baron Hill and took this photo of the house from the back garden.  It looks like the place is now holiday homes called Ty Bach and Ty Mawr
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on December 07, 2019, 05:00:42 pm
Thanks Hugo ,interesting to see and hear.
I was up on the Gt Orme earlier this year, visited the graves at st Tudnos.
flying visit with my Daughter. I am now back living in Merseyside. so maybe i can take up the reigns and start looking into the hughes sibs, of Robert and Anne Hughes Once again.  but as you well know, Hughes are abundant!! I still havn't found when Ann and Robert moved from this house, or where they died. When the house was sold and/or if /when son william moved out post WW1 and prior to 1939 i believe.

wishing you all the best for xmas
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on January 17, 2021, 08:26:16 pm
FYI   i have found Anne Hughes née Owen   death from an obituary, (and now they seem to have the Llandudno parish recs, on ancestry, under llandinorwic...???? ).

reference to her demise in “Y Cymro” 7.4.1915. p. 14. Col.2
Heading “Geni, Priodi a Marw) (i.e. B.M.D)
scroll down to “Marwolaethau” (Obituaries/Deaths)
“Hughes - Mawrth 25 yn 75 oed Mrs Ann Hughes priod Mr Robert Hughes Baron Hill.”  
(March 25 aged 75, Mrs. A H wife of Mr. RH Baron Hill).

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3445825/3445839

no idea where buried,  or cremated as yet.  and still no trace of Robert Hughes Death but i presume,  in 1915  they were both still living in  Baron Hill. well by next January, i should be able to find out whom resided there, in 1921  :)

Hope everyone has a better year than the last.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on January 18, 2021, 11:11:57 am
Karen, that was a good find of yours so presumably in 1915 Robert Hughes was still living in Baron Hill.     I don't know if you have ever seen Baron Hill but it is in St Beuno's Road and the road is very narrow but has a very tight bend on it just where Baron Hill is.   Many vehicles seem to have hit the garden wall there
Normally someone living on the Great Orme would be buried in St Tudno's Cemetery.     There are two cemeteries there, one is in the Church grounds surrounded by a wall and the other and newer one is the Council owned one.

The Conwy Archives has a list of graves with headstones for the old Church of St Tudno and they may also have a list of people buried in the later Council owned cemetery.      At the moment the Archives are closed to the public but people may still be working there who can advise you one way or another.
I think most people were buried in those days and cremations came much later around here
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on January 18, 2021, 01:10:21 pm
Thanks Hugo,
 i will check that out,
 i think we established some time back she was not in St Tudnos.  but now i have a date,  it will be easier to find out.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on January 18, 2021, 03:31:47 pm
Karen, here's a link to the Conwy Archives in case you need it.    If Mrs Ann Hughes wasn't buried in the Council owned Cemetery at St Tudno's the other one would be St Hilary's at Llanrhos and they may have that info too

https://www.conwy.gov.uk/en/Resident/Libraries-Museums-and-Archives/Archives/Archives.aspx (https://www.conwy.gov.uk/en/Resident/Libraries-Museums-and-Archives/Archives/Archives.aspx)
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2022, 09:17:16 am
I'm not sure where to post this but when I was out walking with my dog I met a gentleman and we had a very interesting chat about the Great Orme.    He was born and raised on the Orme and had connections with the Owen family from Pink Farm and the Jones' from Ty Newydd Old Road
As well as talking about research he told me quite an amusing tale about his Grandfather David Owen.     Apparently David was a very good footballer in his day and played for Llandudno FC .    He was also very good friends with the legendary Everton footballer Dixie Dean and one day he asked Dixie if he could come over to Llandudno and present trophies at a forthcoming football match and Dixie immediately said yes.     The day before the match was due,  Dixie came over to stay the night in the cottage in Old Road.    In the evening David and Dixie decided to go out and have a drink.
Midnight came and as there was no sign of the two men the Nain locked the front door.    In the morning she opened the door to get the milk in and there they were the two of them,  fast asleep and hammered after a marathon drinking session
They don't build footballers like that anymore
 
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: norman08 on March 22, 2022, 01:09:51 pm
Great story Hugo   If I remember right. Ty newydd is at the bottom of old road just up from the kings head,  we have tried to reply to your message but it won’t send, yes if you let me know when be great to meet up.
Title: Re: Margaret Anne Pearl Hughes
Post by: karenjadejoy on March 22, 2022, 01:59:26 pm
thanks for sharing that story Hugo, and i hope you and Norman manage to get together :)
Karen