Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: gwennanmay on January 30, 2014, 12:15:36 pm
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Hi, I am trying to find out a bit about my 3rd great grandmother Ellen or Elinor Lloyd who married a Daniel Phillips - veterinary surgeon - and lived in (Zion) Chapel House in Mostyn Street. I have found her on a few census reports but can't find any records of birth (Bangor), marriage or death! It doesn't help that she is recorded under two different christian names in the census records. Hopefully someone out there will know something. Thank you...
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I'm afraid that I know nothing whatsoever about the family although I remember the Zion Baptist Church before it was demolished.
What I can do for you though is to check the Burial Indexes for you in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno.
I go to the Archives sometimes and the Burial Indexes are in alphabetical order so they are usually easy to trace providing the grave had a headstone.
They may be buried in the Llandudno or Llanrhos Cemeteries or as this was a Baptist Church ( I think) then they could be buried in the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden.
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I don't know if this is the same person but there are many references to a Daniel Phillips in Genes Reunited. One of the references says that he died in December 1899 and was buried at Eglwysrhos. (This is St Hilary's Church in Llanrhos)
This Daniel Phillips was involved in a number of things and was representing Penrhynside in some matters.
I'll have a look in the Burial Indexes at the Archives for St Hilary's first and then work through the others if I can't find it there.
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I think the Daniel Philips I mentioned previously is not the one you are looking for but think that he may be related. I've no evidence to base my guess on other than that they lived in the same area and are buried nearby to your relatives. In fact there are quite a few people buried with the other Daniel Philips.
Anyway, I called at the Archives today and looked in the Burial Index for St Hilary's Church Llanrhos and think that I have found the grave of your relatives. They are buried at Plot No I 092 which has a flat slate headstone and is near the Church on it's eastern side.
I'll copy out the inscription on the grave as it appears in the Burial Index:-
"In affectionate remembrance of
Daniel Philips
Veterinary Surgeon of Tan Y Fron
Llandudno who died May 9th 1877 aged 73 years
Also Ellen the beloved wife of
the above who died at Bangor
April 16th 1878 aged 70 years
Also in loving remembrance of
JOHN LLOYD and DANIEL PHILIPS
sons of the above who were drowned
at Valencia Spain March 3rd 1867
the memory of the just is blessed"
I later called at St Hilary's Church and took some photos of the grave. Daniel and Ellen's grave is the flat stone on the right in the
foreground.
I can't be certain where the house called Tan Y Fron is but know that there is a Tan Y Fron in Penrhynside and if that is the one then it could link with the other Daniel Phillips who lived in that area and is also buried in Llanrhos.
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gwennanmay, from the info I found yesterday we know that Daniel Phillips was born about 1804 and died in Llandudno in 1877 and that Ellen Phillips ( nee Lloyd) was born about 1808 and died in Bangor in 1878 and also the names of two of the children they had, so you could find them in the 4 Census periods that they were alive in 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871.
That info should also help you to find out more about their births and marriages as those surnames were not as common as others such as Jones or Roberts etc
There are a number of sites that may help you such as "find my past" but you normally have to subscribe to them and I don't. Instead I visit the local library where access to this info is free. By the way a quick look at Daniel Phillips shows that he was actually born in Mochdre which was in Denbighshire at the time. ( the Counties have changed names numerous times since)
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gwennanmay, I went to the Library and had a look at the Census Records for 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 and can understand your confusion as the mother Ellen and her daughter Ellen have both had different names recorded on the forms.
I didn't find out any info that you don't already know about but in the 1861 Census their address seems to be the Wesleyan Chapel House and by 1871 they had moved to Tan Y Fron Church Walks Llandudno.
Ellen was born in Bangor Caernarfonshire about 1808 so the Gwynedd Archives may be able to help you there and looking at the 1841 Census their daughter Mary was aged 12 so I would think that they got married in the late 1820's and as it was the custom to be married at the Bride's home address then I suppose the Gwynedd Archives may have the info there too.
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Tan Y Fron in Church Walks Llandudno is set back from the road and the front garden is full of trees so a photo of the property is difficult to do it justice.
It's the smaller of the properties in the centre of the foreground of the photo.
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Hi Hugo, I have just been reading through all your responses again as I am back researching the Dunphys, having been sidetracked for quite a long time by other branches of my family! I notice that you remember the Zion Chapel on Mostyn Street before it was demolished and was wondering if you could tell me exactly where on the street it used to be? Looking forward to hearing from you and thank you so much for all the information so far - it's been extremely useful.
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Hi Gwennanmay, I've enclosed a couple of photos of the Zion Baptist Church shortly before it was demolished. It was located in Mostyn Street and was located on the site where the present day Victoria Centre is now (roughly on the left hand side of the Victoria Centre ).
It was demolished when Mostyn Estates refused to renew the lease for the building and was replaced by a concrete carbuncle for Boots. Thankfully that building was also demolished and replaced by the Victoria Centre not long afterwards.
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Hi Hugo, that's brilliant - thank you! Was it a converted chapel or did they just have rooms there do you think? Zion Chapel House is the address on the 1851 Census, but it seems a bit odd! Also, their address on the 1861 census is Wesleyan Chapel House - is that the same building I wonder?
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The (English) Wesleyan Methodist Chapel was opened in 1866. It is situated opposite the site of the old Zion Chapel as Hugo has described. The Wesleyan Chapel used to have a chapel house alongside but that was demolished few years ago to make way for the Marks & Spencer satellite store.
Zion was opened in 1862 and demolished in 1967. I don't recall a chapel house there. The name of chapel is commemorated in the name of a short street linking Madoc Street and Back Madoc Street and which was built shortly after the demolition - Zion Passage.
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Hi Hugo, that's brilliant - thank you! Was it a converted chapel or did they just have rooms there do you think? Zion Chapel House is the address on the 1851 Census, but it seems a bit odd! Also, their address on the 1861 census is Wesleyan Chapel House - is that the same building I wonder?
Gwennanmay, I don't think that the Chapel in Mostyn Street is the one that your ancestors lived in, simply because it wasn't opened until after both Census dates.
I've just had a read of Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels" and one paragraph says " on census day etc etc Caersalem (Wesleyan Methodist) -- incorrectly recorded as Zion"
Now Caersalem was in Cwlach Street on the lower slopes of the Great Orme. We can trace where it was if you could let us know three addresses before your relatives and three after as shown in the 1851 census. The exact address would be traceable to locals on the forum.
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Actually I've just found out something, so I don't need any addresses from the Census.
Chris Draper's book at page 166 says " Caersalem Chapel House (1837) the home of Daniel Phillips the chemist and vet from Mochdre"
So that's the address you want Caersalem Cwlach Street Llandudno and it was a Wesleyan Methodist Chapel and not the Baptist Chapel we were thinking of. I have a photo somewhere but can't find it at present.
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Gwennanmay, my ancestors were in the 1861 census and they lived in what is now called Cwlach Street but I don't think that it had that name then.
It appears that the Chapel House was wrongly named in the census and was not Zion but should have been Caersalem.
Just so that you can check for yourself have a look at the Census records for your ancestors again and to confirm that the info I have supplied is correct I have listed the names of some other properties in the street:-
Ty Glas, Troed Y Rhiw, Pendyffryn, Ty'nymaes, Tygwyrdd, Penyfron, Frondeg.
They are near Caersalem Chapel House and some of those properties are still there today. I would be interested to know if you agree.
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The 1861 census shows the family living in the "Wesleyan Chapel H", the address before this is 27 Queen St. Prior to that, the addresses are 22-26 Queen St. After the Wesleyan Chapel H, is the Wesleyan Chapel, the Graig Cwlach Road one household only), next 1 Tanrallt.
Helig
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Hi Helig, if I could just explain that my ancestors were in the 1861 Census and lived at 22 Queen Street. Now Queen Street is actually now officially called Cwlach Street.
I was in Llandudno today and took some photos of Caersalem Chapel. It was a Chapel. then a school and now looks like flats and may even be part of the Bodlondeb Castle next door.
What I found interesting and it may tie in with your findings on the 1861 Census is that there is a little cottage attached to Caersalem Chapel and the cottage is now called Auron Cottage (see second photo)
That cottage could have been Caersalem Chapel House and would have been the first building in the street.
I have no way of proving that or the age of the cottage but Caersalem Chapel is definitely the address in the 1861 Census and is in Cwlach Street. If that small cottage wasn't built until after 1861 the Caersalem Chapel house must have been the bit on the end of the first photo.
I've seen other Census records and that street has also been called by other names.
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Helig, I don't know if you have got the book but "Llandudno before the hotels" by Christopher Draper is a very good read for anyone interested in Llandudno and covers the town prior to about 1850 and sells at £9.95.
One part is particularly interesting and includes an item by Thomas Rowlands who chronicled the lives of his friends and neighbours and Cwlach Street was an important part of the village then. Daniel Phillips is mentioned as are many others.
It also covers the people who lived on the Morfa prior to their eviction by Lord Mostyn.
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Just an extract from the Chapels Heritage Society:=
A little further uphill in Cwlach Street is the original Welsh Methodist chapel, Caersalem (1837). It later served as a grammar school and a plaque records the fact that William Morris Hughes, Premier of Australia 1916-23 was educated here The building reverted to the Methodist cause in 1889 and was bought by the Methodist Holiday Homes in 1946 as an annexe to Bodlondeb, an extraordinary castellated edifice, constructed by a local builder for an apparently unnamed celebrity who rejected it as having too little land
around it.
I'm only guessing now but maybe the name of the Caersalem Chapel House was changed to Auron Cottage when the building was bought in 1946. There are Street Indexes in the Archives that may confirm this
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I have been reading Chris Draper's book again and and Thomas Rowland's chronicle of the old Llandudno is really interesting and tells us a lot about the life and times of people in the early 1800's.
I think that it's been established that the Phillips family lived in Caersalem Chapel House in Cwlach Street Llandudno.
In those early days it was the hub of the old village and houses were built on both sides of the narrow street. Only a few houses along the street faced each other across the street, most on the southern side of the road faced down the slope enjoying extensive views across the fields below.
The book goes on to say " Nearing the end of the street we notice Tanyfron (1754) the home of Amlwch miner Hugh Parry and Betty his wife, an odd couple, quiet and frugal.
Now the point I wanted to make is that a lot of the old cottages on the southern side of Cwlach Street have been taken over by the houses now in Church Walks. I've just had a look at Church Walks and Tan y Fron is in the exact spot where Chris Draper has stated in his book and because of this I think that Daniel Phillips and his wife moved from the Chapel House further down Cwlach Street to Tanyfron.
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Hello Hugo,
Yes, I have Christopher Draper's book and thoroughly enjoyed reading the history of the town.
I know the old grammar school building well,plus the area round Church Walks/ Cwlach Street.
I wondered whether Daniel Philips might have had a connection with the Wesleyan Chapel with him living in the Chapel House? In those days it was usual for the minister, or incumbent, to reside in the vicinity of the chapel.
Helig.
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I have found some information on Ellinor Lloyd, wife of Daniel Philips. This is on ancestry and there are a number of Family Trees for this couple.
They show she was born Ellinor Lloyd, 1807 in Bangor. They married on 9 January 1828. She died on 16 April 1878 in Llandudno. The source information isn't shown. There are no details of her parents, or baptism. The marriage is shown as having been in Caernarfonshire but no exact details of where.
There are other trees which show her as Ellen, or Ellin but they don't give any more detail on her baptism etc.
Helig.
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Thank you so much for all your information! Is this the Caersalem/Wesleyan/Zion chapel that he lived in do you think? My mum and I went round taking some pictures a while ago and guessed it might be but have never been sure![/img]
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Oops just seen Hugo's pic of the same chapel! Haven't quite got to grips with this forum and how it operates yet!
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I wonder if the present occupiers of this house might have some information on its history? Is Hugo up to knocking on their door in the interests of research?
The information we have suggests the baptism of Ellinor Lloyd and their marriage may have been in a non conformist chapel which is why we are having problems in finding them.
Helig.
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I would gladly do it but at the moment I'm suffering from a heavy cold and coughing bouts so it's something that will have to wait a bit.
I could confirm it from the Archive records though but again won't be going there until the cold eases up as I don't want to pass it on.
Daniel Phillips must have had something to do with the Caersalem Chapel as otherwise he wouldn't have been living there, perhaps Ellen looked after the building as part of the condition of living there.
The Chapel was not the Zion Chapel, that just a mistake on the Census records by the person who compiled them. Mistakes do happen from time to time so you can't always take things as gospel even though they do give you a good lead.
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Helig, those details that you found out about Ellinor Phillips were interesting although the place of death on the grave is shown as Bangor not Llandudno but it could be wrong and I have seen that happen before. A Certificate of death would confirm the correct location though but the birth and marriage were both before 1st July 1837 so you can't get Certificates for those events. If she was born in Bangor then the Church/Chapel or the Gwynedd Archive would have the Register and as for the Marriage, it normally took place in the Bride's home town so again that could be Bangor.
All certificates of births, marriages and deaths in England and Wales since 1 July 1837 are kept at the General Register Office (GRO).
If you are tracing a birth, marriage or death before 1 July 1837, look for parish registers in local archives
In the Census record the Chapel House was the first building on the left as you enter Cwlach Street from the Old Road and I know the Chapel House was there in about 1916 as a young soldier who died in WW 1 lived there. Nowadays if you go into the street from Old Road there are a few parking spaces for cars on the left then you come to Auron Cottage and adjoining it is Caersalem Chapel.
I had a look today at "British History Online" and had a look at an old map of Llandudno and there appears to be a detached building where the car park is now and is no longer there so that's a bit of a mystery as to what that property was.
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The Family Trees on Ancestry have often proved to be wrong, so I don't rely on anything they show to be accurate. The tree is question didn't show any sources for Ellinor's year of birth, or for their marriage. I should think the gravestone would be right as the inscription would be contemporaneous with her death. As you say, the death certificate would be worth obtaining in this case.
The non conformist registers often didn't survive and there are generally few available and in the public domain.
Helig
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I was in Llandudno today and had a closer look at Tan Y Fron 43, Church Walks. It has a very narrow frontage and the garden is just wild and overgrown so I could not even take a photo of the house. A notice on the gate said mail to be delivered to the letterbox in Cwlach Street so I popped around to see it. It's obvious that this was the last home of Daniel & Ellen Phillips and was as Chris Draper described in his book. The property was in Cwlach Street but faced south and had the view across Llandudno but now it is part of Church Walks. (the property with the door on the left)
I then called at the Archives and looked at some records there, in the limited time I had I was able to confirm that the Chapel House was the first building on the left as you come in from Old Road but again couldn't tell whether it was Auron Cottage or not.
I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Register for 1813 to 1858 ( CEP 17/1/ 2) and found the following info
No 342 30/8/1840 Margaret daughter to Daniel and Ellen Phillips Y Maes Veterinary Surgeon
No 633 21/2/1858 David son " " Chapel House "
No 634 " Anne daughter " " " "
Now the Baptism records had no entries for Mary, John Lloyd and Daniel Phillips and I think that this was only because they lived elsewhere in a different Parish.
So in Llandudno we know that the family lived at 3 different addresses, Y Maes then Chapel House and finally at Tan Y Fron
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The house in Church Walks sounds in a poor state. I know 47 Church Walks well and seem to think Tan Y Fron, number 43, was well kept some time ago. It shows that Daniel Philips must have down well for himself to be living in Church Walks. I remember an uncle of mine who lived in Llandudno all of his 91 years, used to say that he hated delivering to houses in Church Walks as he had to climb the steep, long, hill up to them. The inhabitants usually had servants in those days.
Helig
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It's the garden that looks neglected Helig more than the property but it's a shame that they don't open up the garden and take advantage of that great view.
The earliest Census available to the public is for 1841 but we know that the family lived in Llandudno then but I'm hoping that they lived in Eglwysrhos or Llangystennin prior to then only because there may be registers in the Conwy Archives for the Baptism records of the children born earlier.
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Hugo, the children born earlier are shown to have been born in Bangor in some cases.
On the 1841 census they have children born before Margaret as follows:
Mary Philips (cannot see her age)
John Philips age 9.
Ellen Philips age 6
Daniel Philips age 3.
In the 1851, the children with the household born before Margaret are:
John Philips, age 18, Miner, born Bangor, Caerns.
Elinor Philips, age 16, Scholar, born Bangor.
There is a tree on Ancestry which shows children born pre 1840 as follows:
John Philips, born either Llandudno, or Bangor, in 1832/33. Died 3 March 1867, Valencia, Spain.
Ellen Philips born Bangor, 18 September 1834, baptised 26 June 1838, Llangystennin.
Elinor Philips, born 1835, Llandudno, or Bangor, Baptised 26 June 1838 Llangystennin.
Robert Lloyd Philips born 4 July 1835, Llandudno, baptised 26 June 1838, Llangystennin, died 1841 Conwy.
Daniel Philips born 1838 Llandudno. Died 3 March 1867, Valencia, Spain. It says "Extreme Clipper Sultana" for his place of death.
There is a curious entry after the birth of Margaret which shows "January 1841, birth of half sister". There are no details given.
Some of the children seem to have been baptised as a sort of job lot in 1838.
Helig.
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Thanks for all that info Helig, it makes it a lot easier to trace the Baptism records now. As they were Baptised in Llangystennin, those Baptism records should be in the Archives and may show the address for the Phillips family in about 1838.
The Llangystennin Parish covered Penrhynside, Glanwydden, Llangystennin, Pabo, Marl and Daniel Phillips' home town of Mochdre. So it could be anywhere in those areas, possibly Penrhynside as I've seen something mentioned about that village.
It's sad about the two sons John and Daniel and they must have been on the same boat when they perished in 1867.
The mother's Christian name is clearly stated as Ellen in the Baptism Register but as we know they were sometimes called Elinor or even Nell as my own Nain Ellen was often called. Do the Census records show where the mother was born?
That entry for the half sister is interesting and in those days most children were Baptised, even the illegitimate children. The records for illegitimate children always show the mother's name and sometimes show the father's name but not always but the Baptism usually took place soon after the birth so there should be a record of it in the Register.
When you are looking through the Registers it's surprising what turns up and the name rings a bell. A family on the forum were looking for info on the Owen's of the Great Orme and I saw two entries for illegitimate children for one Owen family member
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Hello Hugo,
The place of birth for Ellen, Daniel's wife, is shown as Bangor, Caerns, in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 census returns.
The entry for the half sister intrigued me too. The complication would be if the child was fathered by Daniel but baptised in the name of the mother. Unless his name is shown, it would be impossible to trace this child. The entry for the half sister is shown on one of the Ancestry Family Trees only.
I note that Catherine Philips married ito the Dunphy family. There are some lovely photos on the Family Trees, I love to see photos!
Helig.
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Hi Helig, thanks for telling me about Ellen's place of birth. The Baptism records for her should be in the Gwynedd Archive but I'm unlikely to going to Caernarfon in the near future.
I didn't notice another entry for a Daniel Phillips in the Register other than those I've already mentioned so I presume that if there is an entry for a child then his name wasn't put on the Register. I'll have a look again sometime as a matter of curiosity.
PhilMick has been researching the Dunphy family and there is a book in the Archives about the business but I've not had a look inside to see what it is about.
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I should think the book on the Dunphy business would be worth reading. I used to love Dunphy's on Mostyn Street, where they kept all sorts of unusual items. Dunphy's corner was another good place for the more exotic foods, plus being s sort of local landmark. Those were the days!
Helig.
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I was reading through a book I bought from the Archives and there is a photo in it of a fleet of 6 Dunphy vans and their drivers taken on the West Shore.
They had branches in Llandudno, Craig Y Don, Deganwy, Conwy and Penmaenmawr as well as the warehouse in Market Street. It was nice going into those shops in town as they were a bit special.
In the book there's also a photo of the wreck of the boat the Lady Agnes that went aground on the West Shore in 1896, apparently Stephen Dunphy bought the boat and repaired it and sailed in it for a few years.
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I had a look at the Baptism Register for Llandudno and could find no entry for an illegitimate daughter of Daniel Phillips within 10 years of her birth in 1841. So it remains a mystery, it might be registered in the Eglwysrhos or Llangystennin Register but I didn't look in either of those.