Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: jom on August 11, 2012, 02:22:53 am
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My 3 x g grandparents, Hugh JONES bn abt 1806 was noted as living at "Yre Rofft" and Sarah HUGHES bn aby 1805 was noted as living at Y Pentre Rhinleding, or so they read to me on their marriage cert. Can anyone help me identify this address in modern terms and or translate the names. Hugh was a miner and the family were noted in Christopher Draper's book as being the tennant farmers of Adwy Rhydd for some 50 years.
Also if anyone has any info on them or links to them, I would welcome to hear. I have traced them with all the relevant census returns and the marriage cert suggests Hugh' father was Moses JONES and Sarah's was Robert HUGHES. I have an idea re their mothers' first names but little else. Hugh died abt 1877 and Sarah abt 1880
This site remains a gold mine of info and a very valuable resource to many. Thank you all
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If it was Yr Rofft Llandudno then the house may have been the one by the Black Gate on the Great Orme. Rrofft Bach was near there too. As to Y Pentref Rhinledig then I've never heard of that name.
Adwy Rhydd was a thatched smallholding that was to the east of the present day Bodafon Farm
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Y Pentre Rhinleding, does that appear on the Census for the Llandudno area?
If it does then I wonder if it is Rhiwledyn which forms part of the Little Orme, The words Y Pentre in English mean "the village" and people may have referred to it like that area in those old days although I have never heard the term mentioned before.
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Hi Hugo,
Many thanks for the reply and the pictures. I've attached the marriage certificate and the 1841 Census return for a Robert HUGHES whom I believe to be Sarah's father. These are the only references I have to the addresses in question.
Your musings would seem to fit and now you've told me pentre means village, it helps me understand better. You'll note the the 1841 census attached shows it to be the lower township with Robert HUGHES entry specifically noting "Pentre". I haven't been able to find Hugh JONES' father Moses with any degree of certainty in 1841 and therefore have no other reference to "yr Rofft" than their marriage cert. $good$
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I've had another look at the entries and you seem to be right on both counts. I can now see how the marriage cert may read Rhiwleding and what I thought was Yre Rofft/l is in fact Yr Rofft/l. The photo you attached, what would the date be? Do you know? and where in today's terms is it or would have been? ???
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I could be wrong (I usually am!) but the view out towards the Orme strongly resembes the webcam on a local weather site.
http://www.llandudno-weather.co.uk/ (http://www.llandudno-weather.co.uk/)
The harvested field in Hugo's equates to the field with wrapped bales on the webcam.
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Adwy Rhydd (Ford of the stream) was sited in the fork of the present bridleway of Ffynnon Sadwrn Lane and Bodafon Lane. That was roughly the position where the trams entered Bodafon Fields after the property was demolished
A house has now been built on the site of Adwy Rhydd
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Thanks for posting the photos of the Census and the Wedding Certificate. Looking at the Wedding Certificate it could well be Rhiwledyn which is a large area of the Little Orme.
With regard to the Census, the address is clearly Pentre but is it Pentre Isa? Now Pentre Isa was a farm on the lower part of the Little Orme. It was built in 1680 but lost much of it's character with it's conversion to two separate dwellings in the 1970's and they are still there on a private road.
The Penrhyn Beach estate was built on most of the land from Pentre Isa.
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I forgot to say that the photo of Adwy Rhydd was taken before 1900 but I cannot tell you exactly when.
Just an after thought that in Welsh Isa(f) means lower and Uchaf means higher and properties were sometimes named like that to identify their location.
Perhaps there was a Pentre Uchaf higher up the Little Orme. This is just speculation on my part as I have never heard of a Pentre Uchaf but Rhiwledyn covered a big area on the Little Orme and there were a number of properties in that location.
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I was looking at the Census for 1841 again and the sequence of addresses does put Pentre ? on the Little Orme, It would be interesting to see the next page on the Census because that would just confirm that it is the Little Orme.
Incidentally the ages of Hugh Jones and Robert Hughes on the 1841 Census may be incorrect and the reason for this is that in 1841 the ages for the adults were rounded down to the nearest 5 years.
Eg if they were 34 the age would show 30 on the Census. Likewise if they were 38 the Census would show 35. ???
This only applies to 1841 and if you looked at the 1851 Census it would show you their correct ages.
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I think I can shed some light on this. Ken Dibble records that Pentre Ucha Farm was also known as Pentre or Pentre Rhiw. It was a holding of around 12 acres. By 1808 it was tenanted by Robert Hughes. There may have been more than one actual dwelling there as at least two other households feature. Robert and Margaret Hughes had three children - Elizabeth (b 1791 d 1813 buried at Llanrhos), Robert (b 1796), and Sarah (b 1805). Sarah married Hugh Jones a miner from Llandudno on 18th October 1837. Robert and Margaret took over the tenancy of Adwy Rhydd and Robert junior remained at Pentre Uchaf and took over the tenacy from his father. It looks as if this is the same family so hopefully this will fill in a few gaps. I think the property was opposite Simmda Hir and probably disappeared when the road was built.
Hugo -you may remember the old stone building behind the wall opposite Simdda Hir which was demolished a few years ago. I wonder if that was the last remnant of farm buildings.
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Well that's already more than I had hoped. Thank you Hugo for the photo of the new build on the site of Ady Rhydd. Tried to look at your suggestion TheMedz re the webcam, clearly I forgot I'm in NZ these days ... Black pictures - Night time _))* Will try again later in the day.
Have attached a close up of the 1841 Census address for Robert HUGHES, it's preceeding page and the 2 following pages to assist. I haven't been able to find Robert on the 1851 census and far too many Robert HUGHES' died between 1841 and 1851 to attempt a guess when he died. There has been a suggestion that the 1851 census for Hugh JONES and Sarah (HUGHES) has Sarah's mother Margaret on it. The "Visitor" however whilst suggested as being 68, I think reads 48. Either way she is not old enough, so I think she too may have died between 1841 and 1851. Again too many to hazard a guess as to which.
Cambrian, Could you tell me a little of Ken DIBBLE. The information you gave re Robert and Margaret HUGHES and their children other than Sarah is new to me. Thank you VERY much. As you say fills a few gaps. It certainly does seem to be the same gang. I'll try following Robert Jnr in the census records and see where that gets me!
Loving all of this, thank you so much D)
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I just did a google search trawl and this came up
http://holiday-cottage-llandudno.co.uk/north-wales-holiday-cottage-penrhynside-penygroesffordd-history/ (http://holiday-cottage-llandudno.co.uk/north-wales-holiday-cottage-penrhynside-penygroesffordd-history/)
William Hugh Hughes had a variety of occupations -originally working on his parents farm at Pentre Isa, Penrhyn Bay before moving to Penrhynside, he later earned a living as a general carter/coal merchant and also worked in the quarries on the Little Orme. By 1903, as part of his general carting business, he was appointed by the local Council to collect and dispose of refuse in Penrhyn parish, presumably using his own horse and cart, at the rate of one shilling (5p) per load. Also living with William Hugh and Ann Hughes in this period were Edward Hughes, a quarryman and his wife Sarah Elizabeth whose son Isaac was born there in 1897 – they later moved to Mona House, Pendre Road.
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Cambrian, that was a really great find of yours. Was Ken Dibble's book called "Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol" ? It was in the Conwy Archives and I had a quick peek and the book was full of information that would help anyone that was interested in that area.
The new Census details posted are helpful because the addresses are in sequence and I noticed that Ty Uchaf was the 2nd one on the new list. Ty Uchaf is still there and is the last surviving farm on the Little Orme.
If you go from Shimdda Hir (The new Premier Inn) and take the main road to Colwyn Bay then Ty Uchaf is on the left down a lane and public footpath. So this makes Pentre as being somewhere between the two.
It may be the one that you have mentioned but I don't know. The only thing I can be sure of is that it was very near Shimdda Hir.
It seems that we are getting very near to finding where it was.
The 1st photo is of the site of Adwy Rhydd with the trams going through it.
The 2nd photo was taken from the Little Orme and shows Bryn Y Bia Road and some Farms and buidings on the right of the road. I don't know the identity of those properties though.
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I was in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the book by Ken Dibble called "Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol". Unfortunately it did not cover as far as Pentre. In fact Adwy Rhydd was it's most easterly point.
The land of Adwy Rhydd covered where I have mentioned but it also covered land to the north and east of the photo.
Cambrian must have another book covering the Little Orme and perhaps Penrhynside and there may be a map in the book to identify the location of Pentre.
I did have a look for a Moses Jones in the Welsh Census of 1841 and there were two who lived near Llandudno. One lived in Gyffin and the other in Llanbedr Y Cennin. Both were born about 1871 and aged 60. The Gyffin man was an agricultural labourer with a son Richard aged 25 living at home and the other from Llanbedr was a farmer who had Thomas,Jane and John aged 30,25 and 5 (?) respectively living at home. The wives of both of them were called Anne.
The photo is of the Craigside Premier Inn which started off as Simdda Hir (Long chimney) but has had many extensions and changes of use since its farming days. There is a property called stables out of sight and to the left in the photo and a number of cottages are behind the woods and called Simdda Hir Cottages.
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I did a blog post about Shimdda Hir a few years ago:
http://llandudnoandcolwynbay.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/shimdda-hircraigside-inn.html (http://llandudnoandcolwynbay.blogspot.co.uk/2010/05/shimdda-hircraigside-inn.html)
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Thanks dwsi. As yet I have no other HUGHES family than Sarah and her father Robert till Cambrain gave us that snippet from Ken Dibble. I will need to follow William Hugh HUGHES back to see where it takes me.
I see Ken Dibble is quuoted in Christopher Draper's book but but in earlier times, the book being "Lady of Little Orme" I googled him and found he seems to have written several booklets but none are really mentioned by title.
Thanks for the pictures again Hugo. You must have a wonderful repository if that's not too rude. ;D
I have noticed since Cambrian's info on Sarah's siblings that the 1841 census shows a Robert and Ann HUGHES next door but one to Robert Snr. The age however would make him born 10 years too early. i did follow them through to 1851 making the same birth year. Ann HUGHES seemingly survived Robert to the 1861 census. Too coincidental ... answers on a postcard please :laugh:
Thanks also re the entries for both Moses JONES. I have seen these before and currently don't think either are my man. The kids don't tally with Hugh's siblings. I have them as Hugh bn abt 1797 John bn abt 1798 Mary bn abt 1800 Hugh bn abt 1802 Elizabeth bn abt 1803 Hugh bn abt 1806 Ellin bn abt 1809 and Ann bn abt 1815. my source is Freereg baptismal files for Gyffin.
Look forward to any more ideas.
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You have a copy of Chris Draper's book so you can see on pg 180 a copy of the yearly rental due to Gloddaeth Estate. Hugh Jones is shown on there as paying £2. 2s a year for the rental of Rofft ( the croft)
It is the same place I was thinking about and would have been in the area of the Black Gate and bottom of Llwynon Road somewhere near where Rofft Place is nowadays.
I'll see if I can find the exact location of Pentre Uchaf and Yr Rofft when I go to the Archives next.
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Didn't we find Yr Rofft by Black Gate in the 'Great Orme cemetery' thread?
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That was Rofft Bach Dwsi when we were looking for one of the Roberts' relatives. That building was knocked down and now one of our members lives there and enjoys some fantastic views from his property.
I think Yr Rofft was a larger building than Rofft Bach and may have been across the road and nearer the present Rofft Place.
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hi Hugo. Yes I have noted the entry, cheers. be grateful for anything you turn up just when you're next there or so. Don't want to put you out.
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Just a thought Jom, have you got a copy of the Birth Certificate of Hugh Jones? That may give you the address of Moses Jones and in those days people didn't usually travel too far from their home.
Alternatively in later Census years the form should show where Hugh was born and this again might be an indicator for Moses Jones.
In the Conwy Archives they have a Burial Record for all the Churches in the Conwy County. They record the graves with inscriptions on them and are easy to find as they are also listed alphabetically. Also Moses Jones is not a common name even then.
I have already looked at the books for Llandudno St Tudno's, St Hilary's Llanrhos and the Baptist one in Glanwydden but your Moses Jones is not listed among them. Will have a look at the other books asap but if you do know where Hugh Jones was born would you please post it.
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Hugo, sorry to butt in but civil registration did not commence until 1837 and it seems Hugh Jones was born in 1807.
jom did very well to obtain a marriage certificate for October 1837.
Local baptism records will appear to be the answer.
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Thanks very much for pointing that out Bri. Prior to 1837 the Births were registered with the Parish Church but that won't help in Jom's case though.
Later Census forms after 1841 could give Hugh Jones' place of birth and that would be a start.
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I was in town today so I called at the Library and had a look at Ancestry. I found Hugh Jones in the 1851 Census living at Adwy Rhydd with his wife Sarah and their numerous children. Hugh's place of birth was given as Car Cyffin. This in modern day terms is Caernarfonshire Gyffin.
So in effect Hugh Jones was born in Gyffin and later moved to Yr Rofft Llandudno and then to Adwy Rhydd.
I then in the 1841 Census traced Moses Jones to Derwen Deg in Gyffin and as I have posted previously his age in the Census was listed as 60 (but could be anywhere in between 60 and 64) and he lived there with his wife Anne and son Richard aged 25.
Now you say that you have seen these previously and discounted them, was there any reason for that? There are certain things that match up, for instance Hugh and Moses were both born in Gyffin. Moses who was born about 1781 is the right age to be Hugh's father and Richard could have been a younger brother.
When I did the search for Moses Jones in the 1841 Wales Census there were only about 5 Moses Jones in the Country so the chances of there being another in Gyffin is quite remote. The Parish Church for Gyffin could have the birth records and confirm this one way or another.
I didn't search the burial records for the Conwy area only those for Llandudno but now that I know that Hugh Jones was from Gyffin I'll look at those too.
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I've only just read this on the forum " Chronicle of events in Conwy" by Thomas Roberts and kindly prepared by Rob Pritchard.
It is a fascinating read, especially to those people with Conwy connections.
I was really enjoying reading each item and then at No 174 look what popped up :o
No 174 Moses Jones of Dderwendeg Parish Gyffin buried 7th October 1842.
No wonder I couldn't find him on the 1851 Census!
Derwen Deg ( Fair Oak) is where Moses was living in the 1841 Census. Was he Hugh's father?? ???
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Thanks one and all for your thoughts and searches.
As you say Hugh was born before civil registration as were all his apparent siblings. So no help there. He was born in Gyffin as per the census returns as you have found, Hugo. The reason I have previously discounted the Moses you suggest is that the Free Reg site baptismal files suggest Moses and Ann had the following children Hugh bn abt 1797, John bn abt 1798, Mary bn abt 1800, Hugh bn abt 1802, Elizabeth bn abt 1803, Hugh bn abt 1806 (Mine), Ellin bn abt 1809 and Ann bn abt 1815 and felt Moses wasn't old enough but I suppose looking back, he was just about, particularly if you take into account age discrepency built in to the 1841 census.
FreeReg doesn't show a Richard JONES for Moses and Ann though I know not all files are complete etc. Mind you his apparent age would fit in nicely as the last of the siblings. Moses was listed as an Ag. Lab on the 1841 census and a miner on Hugh's marriage cert. I know that ag lab supplemented their income down the mines and presumably as folk got old would have found land work easier than mining so can't exclude on that account. I think I felt generally, the data didn't fit in quite well enough to take him as my Moses. Only being able to research via the net means I am a little cagey at claiming them as mine.
Been so long formulating my reply that I've only just seen your additional post , Hugo re Moses' burial. I must admit that the more background you folk offer up, the more I wonder if he is my Moses. Don't know if I said but strangely I have another Moses JONES on another Welsh branch of my tree!! Not from Gyffin though :roll: I'll visit that posting, thanks
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Chronicle of events ... As you say a very interesting read. Would never have found it without you Hugo, Thanks $thanx$
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I've not heard of the Free Reg site for Baptisms so I can't look at the info that you have found but understand that you need irrefutable proof before you can say that a family member is yours.
I'm in the Archives again next week so I'll look at the Baptism records and see if they have any for this period and whether they can cast any light on the matter.
It's strange that Moses had three sons all called Hugh, I wonder why.
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I can only suppose that 2 died, Hugo but have found no evidence as yet. Records on the net before 1837 are very limited. I agree re the irrefutable proof by the way and always do my utmost to check all my sources, hence my request to Cambrian re Ken Dibble's book. $good$
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By the way, here's the website www.freereg.org.uk (http://www.freereg.org.uk). It's for baptisms, marriages and burials. It states
"Purpose.
Our objective is to provide free Internet searches of baptism, marriage, and burial records, which have been extracted from parish registers and non-conformist church records in the UK. The recording of baptisms, marriages and burials in parish registers began in England in 1538 and is separate and distinct from the civil registration process that began in 1837. (The latter is covered by our companion project FreeBMD) Our aim is to make it easier for researchers, no matter where they are in the world, to locate a specific record relating to their ancestor within a parish register"
"FreeREG is a part of the FreeUKGEN Project and a companion to FreeBMD (which is a database of the GRO birth, marriage and death indexes from 1837} and FreeCEN (which is a database of census information)"
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Ken Dibble wrote a series of very well researched books between 1990 and 1999. These were historical and social surveys of various localities - Bodafon, Pant y Wennol, Rhiwledyn, Little Orme, Nant y Gamar, and Penrhynside. These were published privately and, as far as I know, were never on general sale although the late Dafydd Hughes (Madoc Street) did sell some. They are are valuable resource for local historians and genealogists. Copies are held at Llandudno Archives. Occasionally copies do pop up in local second hand bookshops but they are quite hard to get hold of.
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Cambrian have you seen those books at the Library? They have the Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol one at the Archives but it is the Rhiwledyn/ Little Orme one that we would need here.
That book may pinpoint the exact location of Pentre Uchaf and it may well be where you suggested. I can vaguely remember that old building that you refer to but can't remember its exact position. Was it pulled down in recent times?
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I may have seen them in the Library but not sure. I have my own copy of the Rhiwledyn one.
The old stone building was hidden behind the wall and there was a gateway to get to it. I think Mostyn had it demolished about 10 years ago. I once heard that a Mr Hender from Penrhynside was given permission by Mostyn to sell ice cream and drinks there but I have no recollection of that. Mr Hender was injured in WW1 and this was a means for him to earn a living apparently.
I have looked at the info again but am not able to give a precise location of Pentre Uchaf. Dibble refers to its inclusion in the Tithe map so I assume that will be at the Archives. This will be the Llandudno Parish rather than Eglwysrhos I think.
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Hi Cambrian,
Hope it's not too cheeky to ask but would it be possible for you to scan the relevant pages (assuming there aren't too many) and email to me. I have scanned the net for a copy to access to no avail (including ebay).
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I went to the Premier Inn just to have a look where the building could have been and took some photos. Is this high wall section near where the building was that was demolished? The gate is there and has a sign on it saying welcome to Rhiwledyn Nature Reserve but then it's securely padlocked and you can't gain entry.
I would have thought that Pentre Uchaf would have farmed on the north side of the present main road and as you are driving up Colwyn Road from Llandudno you can see evidence of farming there with the stone wall boundaries etc on your left. I went to where the houses are that have been built on the site of the old Hydro Hotel to get a better photo of the area and had another surprise as the cul de sac is called Rhiwledyn which is rather nice in view of its location.
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That's the gate I was thinking of Hugo. We must remember that in the days of the farm, there was no Colwyn Road but just a 12 foot wide track. Possibly the cottage was demolished when the road was built.
jom - I can't do scanning but would be happy to send a photocopy if you pm your address to me.
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Hi Cambrian,
Have sent you a personal message. Many thanks.
Thank you Hugo.. lovely pictures and nice to see the name lives on in the residential sector too.
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I went to the Archives in Llandudno today and had a look at the Gyffin Parish records for Baptisms,burials and marriages for the period 1700's to 1812.
You were quite right about the need to have proof about your Moses Jones, because when I was searching the records I found another Moses Jones. He was married to Ellin and they had a son William who was baptised on the 19th Oct 1807.
With regard to your Moses and Anne Jones this is the information I found:-
Hugh (1) and John were Baptised together 7th Jan 1798.
Sadly Hugh (1) was buried in Feb (7th) 1798
Mary Baptised May? 1800
Hugh (2) Baptised 5th Oct 1802
Hugh (2) Buried 1st Feb 1803
Elizabeth Baptised 1st (?) Jan 1904
Hugh (3) Baptised 7th (?) 1806
Ellin Baptised 8th (?) Jan 1809
The dates were unclear in some of them so I've put a question mark in those cases. Couldn't find out where the burial places are for Moses or Hugh though which was strange.
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VERY many thanks, Hugo. MUCH appreciated. This is supported by FreeReg entries too, though they also have noted Ann bp 28 May 1815. DO hope you didn't make a special trip. You folk seem to live in the archives. Sure I would given the chance, too $thanx$
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Meant to say, Hugo the coincidentally the other Moses in my tree may have been married to an Ellinor!! They were from Llangwstennin (If that's the right spelling - It seems to vary).
This other Moses had 5 children of whom I know (Source being census returns)
Susannah bn 1821, Robert bn 1827, Edward bn 1828, Elias bn 1830 and Jane bn 1833
Susannah is my 3 Great Grandmother living in "Maes" at the time of her marriage to my 3 g grandfather John Owen(s) of Llandudno in 1849 at Llangwstennin Parish Church. They lived at Gogarth at the time of her death in 1875
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Susannah is my 3 Great Grandmother living in "Maes" at the time of her marriage to my 3 g grandfather John Owen(s) of Llandudno in 1849 at Llangwstennin Parish Church. They lived at Gogarth at the time of her death in 1875
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That's interesting Jom. Gogarth is the Welsh name for the Great Orme but also there were two farms around the western side of the Orme. Chris Draper in his book at pg 178 refers to two farms confusingly known as Gogarth.
In actual fact they were called Gogarth Isaf (lower) and Gogarth Uchaf (higher) and he refers to a Mary Owen who farmed the smaller 26 acre property. Would this be a relation and is this the property that they lived at?
In actual fact both farms have been demolished but by pure coincidence I took a group of walkers around that area yesterday and we had refreshments at the property of one of the walker and their house has actually been built on the site of one of the old farms.
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Your tid bits are great Hugo, thanks. Didn't realise that Gogarth meant Great Orme. Stops me wondering why so many folk seemed to live there and yet not seemingly of any connection :roll:
Would "Maes" be Tan y Maes Llandudno junction? This is where Susannah (JONES) and John OWEN(S) are first found in 1851. Apparently next door to her father (a widower) and some siblings. 1861 Susannah and John are at 16 "Pen y Ffrith" or so it appears and then in 1871 they are at "Gogarth Cottage" next door but one to "Gogarth Farm" which was occupied by the JONES family you mentioned. I currently know of no connection. It would seem likely that there will be one somewhere along the line but where I know not!!
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I am a very new member and am reading with interest this topic. My 3X grandfather John Edwards,a miner born in Anglesey, married Sarah Jones at St. Tudno's on 6 June 1814. Sarah, baptised at St.Tudno's on 19 Nov 1791, was the daughter of Hugh Jones (born circa 1754) and his wife Elizabeth Williams(born circa 1763); they were married at S.tTudno's on 31 Oct 1783.
John and Sarah Edwards' first born,Elizabeth, was baptised at St.Tudno's on 4 Jan 1815 and the address given is Yr Offt. Hugh Jones was buried at St. Tudno's on 17 Nov 1829 aged 75, and the address given is Y'Rofft. Using his age at death as a datum, there is no record of baptism of a Hugh between 1750 and 1760.
The1843 Mostyn Estate rent schedule for the farms on the Great Orme includes Yr Offt(probably Y Rofft) assessed at £4.10s.0d.
In conclusion, is there a connection with the jigsaw which leads to Moses Jones (and, hopefully, to me)? Hearsay information from a long lost relative suggests that the Jones' were one of the four oldest families in Llandudno
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Jom, Maes means field and could be anywhere. For instance Maesdu, a farm in Llandudno or Pen Y Maes. There are loads of variations and the Welsh names described where the property was.
What makes you think it was Tan Y Maes in Llandudno Junction? Was it on the Census and shown as Llangystennin?
Pen Y Ffrith were terraced cottages on the Great Orme in 1861 and I believe that some or most of them are still there
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Jom, Maes means field and could be anywhere. For instance Maesdu, a farm in Llandudno or Pen Y Maes. There are loads of variations and the Welsh names described where the property was.
What makes you think it was Tan Y Maes in Llandudno Junction? Was it on the Census and shown as Llangystennin?
Yes Hugo, Susannah JONES who married John OWEN(S) was on the 1851 Llangwstennin Census and was always noted as being from there on subsequent returns till her death in 1875. Her husband John OWEN(S) was always noted as being from Llandudno. I have yet to find Susannah on the 1841 Census though I do have her father and some siblings again at Maes Llangwstenin. Now you tell me "Maes" means farm, Irealise this doesn't pin it down as I had previously thought :roll:
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I am a very new member and am reading with interest this topic. My 3X grandfather John Edwards,a miner born in Anglesey, married Sarah Jones at St. Tudno's on 6 June 1814. Sarah, baptised at St.Tudno's on 19 Nov 1791, was the daughter of Hugh Jones (born circa 1754) and his wife Elizabeth Williams(born circa 1763); they were married at S.tTudno's on 31 Oct 1783.
John and Sarah Edwards' first born,Elizabeth, was baptised at St.Tudno's on 4 Jan 1815 and the address given is Yr Offt. Hugh Jones was buried at St. Tudno's on 17 Nov 1829 aged 75, and the address given is Y'Rofft. Using his age at death as a datum, there is no record of baptism of a Hugh between 1750 and 1760.
The1843 Mostyn Estate rent schedule for the farms on the Great Orme includes Yr Offt(probably Y Rofft) assessed at £4.10s.0d.
In conclusion, is there a connection with the jigsaw which leads to Moses Jones (and, hopefully, to me)? Hearsay information from a long lost relative suggests that the Jones' were one of the four oldest families in Llandudno
Hi granddad, I think you may have sent me an email re these folk via curiousfox D) Thank you At the moment I don't see a connection with my Hugh JONES but there may well be one waiting to be uncovered. Will get in touch should I come across anything. Have just come off nights and not thinking too clearly. A little foggy brained at the moment but will look at the folk you mention and see what I can find in my bits and pieces
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Granddad, Meant to just say my Hugh JONES family were from Gyffin. It was Hugh who lived at Rofft in 1837 and once married to his wife Sarah went to Adwy Ryhdd
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Jom, there is a little misunderstanding. Maes means means field. The Welsh word Fferm means farm
The example I gave Maesdu (black field) Farm was just a coincidence.
Maes on it's own just means field.
Incidently in those old days Llangystennin was the name of a Parish as well as the name of the village that carries it's name. The Parish of Llangystennin covered a large area that include Pabo, Marl, Bryn Pydew, Glanwydden and Llangystennin and one or two other little places
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Jom, the Census forms are usually in some type of order so if you can say the names of two properties either side of your "Maes" then it may be possible to identify the exact location.
Like I said Maes means field in English but it could still be a smallholding or something similar as this is a very rural location and people did try to be self sufficient then.
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I was in the Conwy Archives again and had a look at an 1889 First Edition O/S map of Rhiwledyn. There was also Ken Dibble's book "Rhiwledyn and the Little Orme" which I had a read of.
On the O/S map it is listed as Pentre Shimdda Hir and is exactly in the spot that Cambrian mentioned and that I took the photos of ( that wall and gate) In Ken Dibble's book it is listed as Pentre, Pentref Uchaf and Pentre Rhiw so in effect it has been called at least 4 names.
If you go on Google Street view and look up the Craigside Inn it is opposite it. There is actually a photo of Pentre Uchaf in the book at pg 63 but it is of very poor quality but the original photo must be available somewhere.
You probably know this Jom but Hugh Jones died on 14th Jan 1877 aged 71 and was buried at Ffolt Cemetery Glanwydden. Now this Cemetery is also known as the Baptist Cemetery of Ainon and I've enclosed a photo I took of the Cemetery when I was last there. It's like a jungle and I had to go in with loppers to find my way in.
Sarah died on 28th Sept 1880 aged 75 and she is buried at Ffolt with Hugh so they must have been members of the Baptist Chapel
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Wow, Hugo! You've helped no end. I didn't have either place or date of deaths for either Sarah or Hugh just an educated guess from census returns and Free BMD with the ages noted as being about right. I will obtain their death certs when I can. I certainly didn't know where they were born - so again I am indebted to you. Do you live in the archives :D
Cambrian has very kindly sent me photocopies of the relevant pages from Ken Dibble's book re Rhiwledlyn. Awaiting them in the post via my mother!! - Thank YOU Cambrian, too
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Pages 77/78 give the details of the deaths of Hugh and Sarah but I had already looked in the Burial records for Capel Ainon but couldn't see anything but obviously they are buried there.
I'll go back to the Archives in case I've missed something and then perhaps if I get the courage go back into the jungle with my camera.
If Hugh was a Baptist then probably Moses was too, but this Cemetery wasn't opened until the 1830's so Moses if he died before then may have been buried in the Baptist Cemetery at Salem Chapel Fforddlas.(Glan Conwy)
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I've only just read this on the forum " Chronicle of events in Conwy" by Thomas Roberts and kindly prepared by Rob Pritchard.
It is a fascinating read, especially to those people with Conwy connections.
I was really enjoying reading each item and then at No 174 look what popped up :o
No 174 Moses Jones of Dderwendeg Parish Gyffin buried 7th October 1842.
No wonder I couldn't find him on the 1851 Census!
Derwen Deg ( Fair Oak) is where Moses was living in the 1841 Census. Was he Hugh's father?? ???
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As we have already agreed, this isn't necessarily my Moses but hugh's marriage cert makes no mention of his father being deceased. Again no real conclusion can be made that he therefore died after 1837 especially as it was early days of registration. Thank you for your kind offer and as before... ANY new information would be most welcome but equally don't put yourself out. You have already done plenty and thank you for the photos of the cemetery
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Jom, the Census forms are usually in some type of order so if you can say the names of two properties either side of your "Maes" then it may be possible to identify the exact location.
Like I said Maes means field in English but it could still be a smallholding or something similar as this is a very rural location and people did try to be self sufficient then.
I think the name "Maes" must be more specific than that as it is noted on their marraige certificate as Susannah's address in the Parish of Llangwstennin. Have attached it and the relevant census returns. I find it difficult to read the writing correctly and then understand the address or description of their residence as you can appreciate. My direct Welsh links end with my Great Grandparents and as ALL my GRANDPARENTS died before I was born, it makes it very hard to gain a sense of location etc.
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Thanks Jom, I now think I know where this place is. I believe that it is on the Glanwydden Road to Llangystennin (the Pen Y Bont road) but will check.
I'm out for most of the day today but will look in more detail later.
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I'm not so sure exactly where "Maes" is now that I have had another look at it. I can read most of the names and also understand them but what is confusing me is that Maes appears to be in Bryn Pydew because some of those other names remain the same today.
What has thrown me though is that some of the names Ty Cefn (back house) and Ty Newydd (new house) also appear in Glanwydden and both villages are in the Parish of Llangystennin.
I'm sure that it can be traced though.
I went to Ainon Cemetery at Ffolt Glanwydden today as it isn't that far from my house and I was armed in my protective gear and had the garden loppers handy but I'm afraid that the Cemetery is worse than ever probably due to this years rainfall and it's virtually impenetrable.
I did go in but you have to clear each grave before you can get to read the headstone and I gave up after a while. What I need is the location of the grave which I hope to get when I go to the Archives next time and then I can go to it direct. Most of the headstones are made from Welsh slate and the writing on them is very clear considering the state of the Cemetery.
I was told that it was last cleared 30 years ago and it is a disgrace. The local Councillors have been approached but have done nothing to help.
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looks as though you'd have to know the cemetery was there in order to find it. Looks awful. By the way your photo of the church is a far nicer picture than the google street view $good$
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If you look on the Google map for Glanwydden at the T junction where the Queens Head Restaurant is, turn right down Waun Road then first left at Ffordd Wiga and down the lane on the right before the houses is Ainon Cemetery. You'll see the metal gate and kissing gate at the entrance.
I haven't yet located Maes but it isn't Tan Y Maes in Llandudno Junction. In the 1841 Census, the addresses from Esgyrun go along to Pydew in Bryn Pydew and I should know where Garth is because I've actually called there but I've had another senior moment! :roll:
The order then is Twll Llwynog (Fox Hole) then Maes then Ty Cefn (Back House)
In the 1851 index they have been collected in a different direction. Pen Y Bont is still there but I don't know the other names apart from Ty Newydd but again there are more than one Ty Newydd houses in the Parish.
I have a friend in Bryn Pydew who may know but if not the Archives should have the records and I'll visit there next week
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Hugo - Maes is recorded in the Llangwstennin Enclosure Award (1848). It seems to have been in the ownership of Thomas Peers Williams (one of the major landowners) but only consisted of 3 roods and 1 perch (just over three quarters of an acre) so I would guess it was a cottage with a garden to grow vegetables and/or keep some hens or pigs. Pentre is listed in the Llandudno Award as belonging to Edward Mostyn Lloyd Mostyn and had an area of 2 roods and 14 perches (a bit small than Maes). Interestingly there is also a Pentre Ucha listed (1 acre, 1 rood and 9 perches) which tends to support Dibble's view that there was more than one household. This actually makes some sense given the name "Pentre".
T P Williams' land holdings seem to be between Bryn Pydew and Pensarn rather than the Glanwydden end of the parish .
When you go to the Archives, they may have a copy of the Llangwstennin Parish Enclosure Award which will have a fairly detailed map with it. Hopefully this may identify the location of Maes. I suppose the Tithe Map would be another potential source.
Incidentally, the Ffolt burial ground was last cleared by volunteers from the Historical Society. It does not belong to the Council so I assume responsibility for its upkeep lies with the Trustees of the chapel.
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Thanks Cambrian for all that info. When I looked at the O/S map of 1889 the property we believe to be Pentre was a small T shaped building with a well and a small parcel of land attached. It was called Pentre Shimdda Hir but was probably called that because it was owned by the family who owned Shimdda Hir across the road. If there was more than one household living there then they should all appear in later Census records.
Where is Pensarn? Is it on the road from Pydew down to Pen Y Bont?
I spoke to one of those volunteers who last cleared the Cemetery 30 years ago and he said that the local Councillors had been approached to do something but haven't and it's a shame to see it now. The Burial Records at the Archives have been done from the Headstones that are there so I need to check exactly where the grave is before I go in there again as otherwise it's an impossible task.
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If you look on the Google map for Glanwydden at the T junction where the Queens Head Restaurant is, turn right down Waun Road then first left at Ffordd Wiga and down the lane on the right before the houses is Ainon Cemetery. You'll see the metal gate and kissing gate at the entrance.
Yep .. Got it ... Cheers, hugo
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If you look on the Google map for Glanwydden at the T junction where the Queens Head Restaurant is, turn right down Waun Road then first left at Ffordd Wiga and down the lane on the right before the houses is Ainon Cemetery. You'll see the metal gate and kissing gate at the entrance.
Yep .. Got it ... Cheers, hugo
If you look beyond the gates in the photo there is a long corrider of grass that opens on to a lawned area. On the right on the lawned area are the most recent graves but on the left are the oldest graves that are in the overgrown area. A complete contrast.
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Pensarn is the area round where Richard Williams Builders Merchants is now. The name derives from the "sarn" or causeway which ran from Glan Conwy Corner to roughly where Pabo Lane starts. The house opposite the Black Cat is called "Sarn y Mynach".
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Thanks Cambrian, that's interesting, I've never heard of Sarn Y Mynach ( causeway of the Monk) before, but there must be some significance to have that name.
You obviously know a lot about that area but do you know where Twll Llwynog and Ty Cefn are as Maes is between the two properties?
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Hugo - I have been pondering this again and wonder if the name has been consistent down the years. The reason I raise this is that in the 1939 Street Directory, for Seguryn Side, there is listed Maes y Glas which seems to have been a dairy farm of sorts. In the 19222 one again for Segyrun Side, there is Tyn y Maes. This was situated between two properties then called Pen Dyffryn and The Hermitage. So it seems reasonable given the literal translation of Tyn y Maes that this could be the one.
I am sorry I have no info about Ty Cefn but the other one does appear in the schedule for the Llangwstennin Enclosure Award - owned by Thomas Peers Williams. Unfortunately the schedule seems a bit hap-hazard in the order which properties are shown and I don't think it can be relied upon in the same way as the Census Return.
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Thanks Cambrian, I'm quite intrigued now and can't wait to find out. I hope to get the answer when I next visit the Archives but it's doing my head in about Garth Because I've actually visited the place but can't remember where it is! ???
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If you look beyond the gates in the photo there is a long corrider of grass that opens on to a lawned area. On the right on the lawned area are the most recent graves but on the left are the oldest graves that are in the overgrown area. A complete contrast.
[/quote]
Cor ... quite a difference!
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Garth is the farm below the quarry opposite Mochdre
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Thanks Dwsi, I've been there before and had a walk through the quarry fairly recently but couldn't place where it was. $good$
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Re Capel Einon cemetery photographs I assume you are aware of microfiche M89, Capel Einon Cemetery, Llangystennin published by Gwynedd Family History Society. This provides provides an indexed set of the memorial inscriptions and a location diagram. With this, and the loss of some blood , I was able to uncover an ancestors gravestone in the 'jungle'several years ago.
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There is a paper based version in the Conwy Archives and it has the location and inscriptions of each grave and until I can see that, I'm not going back in there until I know where the grave is and even then I'll don my protective clothes
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I think I can shed some light on this. Ken Dibble records that Pentre Ucha Farm was also known as Pentre or Pentre Rhiw. It was a holding of around 12 acres. By 1808 it was tenanted by Robert Hughes. There may have been more than one actual dwelling there as at least two other households feature. Robert and Margaret Hughes had three children - Elizabeth (b 1791 d 1813 buried at Llanrhos), Robert (b 1796), and Sarah (b 1805). Sarah married Hugh Jones a miner from Llandudno on 18th October 1837. Robert and Margaret took over the tenancy of Adwy Rhydd and Robert junior remained at Pentre Uchaf and took over the tenacy from his father. It looks as if this is the same family so hopefully this will fill in a few gaps. I think the property was opposite Simmda Hir and probably disappeared when the road was built.
VERY many thanks Cambrian. Your photocopies arrived today safe and well. I have had a glance through and noted that it also gives the death / burial dates for Hugh and Sarah JONES as well as more detail on Sarah's siblings. Very helpful indeed.
Interestingly I noted that Hugh and Sarah JONES went to stay at Bryn Ifan with Hugh and Gaynor OWENS whilst Adwy Rhydd was undergoing some apparent renovations about 1860. They also seemed to have taken in Sarah's wodowed sister in law Ann HUGHES and Ann's daughter Margaret.
If you look back at Hugh and Sarah's marriage certificate you may notice that witnesses were a Gaynor EDWARDS (?the same Gaynor) and John HUGHES (Presumably Sarah's brother). This is all quite exciting and providing lots of new avenues for investigation
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Just for you info Jom, Bryn Ifan is the building on pg1 (img 4099) it is on the right behind the trams. Adwy Rhydd was a little lower down that road where it forks on to Bodafon Road
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Jom, I was back in the Archives today and looked again in the Burial Index for Capel Ainon. I don't know how I missed it the first time round but Hugh and Sarah's grave is clearly listed there. Sorry about that.
Anyway, I had a look at some maps and then went home for my protective gear and headed for the Cemetery.
The grave plot is A045 and is in the fourth row in, and the 3rd from the right. What I do is make a note of the graves nearby (like the Census) so that I have the correct one.
Anyway to cut a long story short I found their grave and enclose photos before and after I found it. The grave is like a vault built on a course of about 3 bricks and the large headstone is laid flat on top of it. The headstone is very well preserved and the writing on it is very clear. I did clean it as best as I could but I'm sorry but I didn't take any water and cloth to do a better job.
The inscription on the headstone is as follows:-
Er serchog gof
Am Hugh Jones Adwyrudd
Hunodd yn yr Iesu Ionawr 14 1877 yn 71 oed
Also
Sarah, wife of the above said
Hugh Jones
who died Sept 28 1880 aged 75 years
The English translation for the first part is :-
In affectionate memory
of Hugh Jones Adwyrudd
Asleep in Jesus January 14 1877 aged 71.
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Jom, while I was looking at different Burial Indexes I found the following and I know that they are not the Moses Jones that was Hugh's father but I thought that I'd tell you about them in case they were of any use to you.
Capel Ainon Burial Index:-
Plot A084 Elizabeth Jones
The inscription in Welsh was Elizabeth merch Moses a Maria Jones
Y Bwlch, fu farw Ionawr 4 1856 yn 3 oed
The English translation being Elizabeth, daughter of Moses and Maria Jones Y Bwlch (name of house meaning the Pass) she died January 4 1856 aged 3
The St Benedict Burial Index for Gyffin had:-
Plot 070 Moses Jones
The inscription was in English and said:-
Sacred to the memory of Moses Jones late of Tai Bach Dwygyfylchi who died at Conwy June 27 1866 aged 61 years. Also Grace wife of the above named Moses Jones who died July 11th 1872 aged 68 years.
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Cambrian you may be right about thinking that Maes may be in the Sarn area of Llandudno Junction but I can't prove it one way or another from the O/S maps I saw today in the Archives.
In the 1841 Census Maes is between Twll Llwynog (Fox Hole) and Ty Cefn but all I know about Fox Hole is that it had a view of Conwy Castle so that could put it in the Pabo or Sarn area.
In the 1851 Census Maes is between Ffordd and Waen Fynydd. Pen Y Bont is before Ffordd but the only one I knew was the one by the Afon Ganol.
However when I looked at the O/S map today there is a Pen Y Bont in Llandudno Junction somewhere by the Marl Drive/ Penrhos Avenue area. If that is the Pen Y Bont in the Census then as Waen Fynydd is in the Narrow Lane area of Llandudno Junction then Maes might well be in the Sarn area. I'm afraid that I'm none the wiser after looking at that map, but a tithe map may be better.
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Just for you info Jom, Bryn Ifan is the building on pg1 (img 4099) it is on the right behind the trams. Adwy Rhydd was a little lower down that road where it forks on to Bodafon Road
Yep .. Gottcha. Cheers Hugo
Wooow! You're amazing Hugo. :o Thanks so much for ALL the efort you have put in with this search. Wonderful pics. Didn't really like to hope you'd unearth the grave and never truly imagined that it would be so legible but as you said before re Welsh slate ... how true. Hope you didn't get too torn and tattered.
I'll keep a note of those others you found in the archives and see if I come across any. Going on to ancestry and looking at the census returns for those APPARENT family members mentioned by Ken Dibble etc. Can't recall if I said or not but have sent for Hugh ans Sarah's death certs so will await them with interest. D)
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Hugo/Jom
With a bit of dective work I may have found what could be Maes. The road on which Waenfynydd is situated was at some stage called Bryn Derw Road (now Narrow Lane). The 1939 street directory starting at the Seguryn end records 3 properties on the east side - Bryn Derw farm, Cae Ffynnon (still there) and Waenfynydd dairy. The west side is Jubilee House, Pendyffryn and TYN Y MAES.
In earlier directories the street is not named and is under the heading Seguryn.
So my guess - with all we know - is that Tyn y Maes was somewhere around where the roundabout is at the A470/Narrow Lane junction.
Hugo, you will know there has been a lot a housing development in this area which may mean any traces have gone but it may show up even if unnamed on older OS maps.
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Thanks Cambrian, that's all good stuff. Tyn Y Maes didn't show up on the O/S map I was looking at but what you say makes sense. Ty'n Y Maes (house in the field) is probably how the name should be spelt but names have been abbreviated over the years as we know and if the Pen Y Bont is the one in Llandudno Junction then your guess is spot on.
I was making assumptions based on the Pen Y Bont by the Afon Ganol.
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Waen Fynydd http://goo.gl/maps/RlLSB (http://goo.gl/maps/RlLSB)
Jubilee Villa/House, Pendyffryn and Tŷ'n y Maes http://goo.gl/maps/Vvg12 (http://goo.gl/maps/Vvg12)
Cae Ffynnon http://goo.gl/maps/zFxm1 (http://goo.gl/maps/zFxm1)
Pen y Bont http://goo.gl/maps/Aoxls (http://goo.gl/maps/Aoxls)
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Jom, I came across an enigma in the Archives that I couldn't solve and they may not be your relation but I'll post what I've found.
In the Burial records for St Peter Llanbedr Y Cennin the burial record has two graves Plots 155 and 176 for Moses and Anne Jones.
The Inscription is in Welsh on both graves with Latin numerals and on grave No155 the inscription translated is as follows:-
In memory of Anne Jones wife of Moses Jones of this Parish buried June 1st 1848 aged 76.
Also Moses Jones died May 15th 1861 aged 81.
This is the mystery, the grave No 176 is immediately behind grave 155 and has an identical inscription in Welsh and Latin except for the end bit which is:-
Also Moses Jones died May 15th 1864 aged 87 ??? ???
I haven't got an explanation and neither has the Archives so I'm just passing it over to you for your info
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Hugo - was chatting to a couple of friends who are from the Seguryn area. They reckon the Maes we are after is the property now called Maes Glas, this is the first cottage on the left as you go up Narrow Lane from A470.
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You could be correct Cambrian because the 1851 Census lists Maes,Waen Fynydd and Bwlch Glas in that order. I remember that old building on the left and very close to the road. It was in a mess before they knocked it down and built the modern bungalow on the site.
Was that the Waen Fynydd dairy farm?
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You could be correct Cambrian because the 1851 Census lists Maes,Waen Fynydd and Bwlch Glas in that order. I remember that old building on the left and very close to the road. It was in a mess before they knocked it down and built the modern bungalow on the site.
Was that the Waen Fynydd dairy farm?
Click on the links on my previous post to see a google streetview of the properties
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Hugo/Jom
With a bit of dective work I may have found what could be Maes. The road on which Waenfynydd is situated was at some stage called Bryn Derw Road (now Narrow Lane). The 1939 street directory starting at the Seguryn end records 3 properties on the east side - Bryn Derw farm, Cae Ffynnon (still there) and Waenfynydd dairy. The west side is Jubilee House, Pendyffryn and TYN Y MAES.
In earlier directories the street is not named and is under the heading Seguryn.
Thought Seguryn was vaguely familiar to me and have just looked at me family tree to find that the apparent brother of Susannah (Jones) OWEN(S) previously mentioned in this string who was possibly Elias (Son of Moses and Ellinor JONES) was residing at 2 Ochor "Segurun" in 1861. Now I appreciate I may have misread and therefore mis spelt the place, but this is the "Maes" branch so we may be getting there, thanks. Have attched the census return purely for interest
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Thanks Hugo for all the "Moses JONES" data. I have saved them all in a file for future reference etc. Much appreciated
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Thanks dwsi. have had a look Intriguing!!
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I was in the Archives today and think that I may have solved one mystery but created another for you. I looked at the 1813-1901 Gyffin Baptism records and at pg 4 No 26 was this information:-
May 28th 1815 Anne daughter of Moses and Anne Jones DERWEN DEG Labourer and the ceremony was performed by the Rev Owen Reynolds.
This Baptism record was completely different to the earlier one I looked at in so much that it was more detailed and there was a place for the name of the abode. Thankfully they put the name of the property down and not just the town.
This must be your proof that Moses Jones from Derwen Deg Gyffin who was buried on 7th Oct 1842 is Hugh's father and your Moses.
I don't know why but I didn't get a photo copy of this entry but if you want one then I can get one next time. You have 3 different occupations for Moses and they could all be true. The mining aspect could relate to anywhere including Llandudno but is more likely to relate to the Lead mines up the Gyffin Valley.
The problem I've got for you is who is Richard Jones mentioned in the Census of 1841?
I've checked all the Baptism records for Gyffin and Richard is not listed there and there are no other entries in that book apart from Anne's.
Could he be a relative or adopted?
In 1847 in the Marriage registry for Gyffin there is an entry for Grace Jones the daughter of Richard Jones a Farmer of Derwen Deg (Moses had died by then) see photo
There was no entry in the Marriage Registry at Gyffin for Moses' last known child Anne so I don't know what has happened there.
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I went back to the Archives today because I think that you need to see a copy of the original Baptism record for Anne daughter of Moses and Anne Jones of Derwen Deg Gyffin.
While I was there I also had a photo copy made of the Burial Entry for Moses Jones,
It doesn't show where he was buried but it would have been in Gyffin. I checked all the Burial Indexes for Gyffin, Conwy and the surrounding Churches and Chapels but couldn't find an entry for your Moses Jones. The indexes show the graves with inscriptions and it could be that Moses didn't have a headstone or that it was unreadable
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Hi Hugo,
Thanks sooo much. Not had a chance to log on till now and am running late so will have a really good look at all info in a day or two. You're too kind :-*
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You're very welcome Jom.
I was looking at the 1841 Census for Moses Jones of Derwen Deg again and the Census for 1841 is flawed in a few ways. The main flaw being the fact that you may not get the true age of the person as the age is rounded down to the nearest 5 years for adults.
It also does not show the relationship of people to the head of the family. Richard Jones is aged 25 in the Census and we have assumed that he is the child of Moses and Anne which might not be the case.
This is just a thought without any proof whatever but if you look at the Census record the very next entry after Moses' is for Richard Jones aged 50 (can't read the farm name) Could the 50 year old Richard be a relation of Moses and could the 25 year old Richard be his son and Richard Jnr is living and working at Derwen Deg now that Moses' sons have left?
Just food for thought
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Yes I spotted that Hugo last night (NZ time). Also I briefly looked at the 1851 census and living at Derwedeg is a MOSES and Ann Owen who would seemingly have a daughter Grace. Quite a coincidence if not related in some way with relatively unusual first names if you'll pardon the pun. Wonder if Ann Owen here was a daughter of Richard. It's hard to keep track. Am off this weekend so hope to do some research if I'm allowed (husband's birthday) ;D
Lots of avenues to try $good$
Hugo, I wondered if I might put upon you again next time you visit the archives. Would it be possible to send a copy of Hugh JONES baptism via this forum?
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Just another thought Jom, Richard Jones Snr had a daughter called Grace and when Grace got married in 1847 (see marriage details) her father Richard Snr was living at Derwen Deg!
Had Richard taken over the property when Moses died and it became unmanageable for his widow Anne Jones?
Anyway by the time of the 1851 Census Richard was not living at Derwen Deg either.
I'll see what I can do about the Baptism record for Hugh Jones but they are nothing like the one I've posted for Anne, without being disrespectful they are just like a school note book.
I'll also look at the Baptism record for Richard Jones born about 1816 just to get conclusive proof of any link to Richard Jones Snr because the last time I looked I was looking for Richard with Moses as being the father.
It might be next week before I can go back to the Archives
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$thanx$
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This is a photocopy of the Baptism record for Hugh Jones and I'm sorry about the quality but I did say that it was just like a school notebook.
Hugh is the 7th one down and the date, which is on the very end and out of sight was the 7th April 1806
I had a look in the Baptism Records from 1812 but couldn't see anything about Richard Jones on it so that still remains a mystery.
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Quality is fine. Better than I'd hoped. Thank you for all your help
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Am I right in thinking it reads "Baptised Hugh son of Moses Jones Lab Ag and Anne his wife"?
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It actually reads " Baptised Hugh son of Moses Jones Labr and Anne his wife" then the date follows that.
In the Babtism record the word is "Labr" with the the letter r slightly raised above the other letters.
There is no Ag on the record. Hope that that makes sense.
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Yes it does, Hugo Thanks ZXZ cheers
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Got my hands on the death certificate for Moses Jones who died at Derwen Deg in Oct 1842. Thought you folk might like to peruse to see the fruits of your labour. Thanks for everyone's help. Will post my next brick wall soon ha ha ha! ZXZ
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Thanks for posting that Jom, I haven't been to the Archives for a while but when I do I'll have another look in the Burial records and if I find anything I'll post it on here.
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Cheers Hugo
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I love the cause of death, something you don't see any more.
Verdict by Coroner's Jury.
Died by a visitation from God!
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Wonderful, isn't it ... Dread to think what it actually was. Have had others like decay of nature etc but this is the first of this kind in my collection _))*
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I posted something on the Forum about this but can't remember where I posted it. From memory though someone else had a similar enquiry and the Librarian at Penrhyn Bay Library knew Ken Dibble and was prepared to go and see him and ask him about selling the books if that person was still interested.
Penrhyn Bay Library
Llandudno Road
Penrhyn Bay, LL30 3HN
Tel (01492) 548873
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Cheers, Hugo.
I've noted others had tried in the past (someone on "Curious Fox" too but not seen any replies which offer a practicle solution. Many thanks. Will email someone at the library in the hope I track down the same person. Think the books may hold clues to other Llandudno branches of my tree.
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I was in the Archives last week looking at the Llangelynin Baptism records for someone and came across this item.
Christening 22nd December 1911
Richard son of Moses Jones Derwen Deg by Ann his wife
I remembered the name and just thought that I'd add it on here
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Hi Hugo ... Wow, what a stroke of luck. I've not stumbled across this chap before. I've had a look on line but can't find the same record, sadly. I presume you have a date typo and that it's meant to be 1811. I shall continue to investigate him, but what a memory you have.
Just had a look at my records and note a 25 year old Richard JONES with Moses and Ann in 1841 at Derwen Deg. I had made a comment that I didn't know who he was as I couldn't find a Richard belonging to them. I had even wondered if he might be a nephew or possibly the neighbour's son (A Richard JONES). Obviously the census in 1841 rounded the ages up the nearest 5, but it is likely to be the same chap. As I say, I'll carry on investigating
Hope you and yours are keeping well
Many thanks
;D
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Hi Jom, I've copied it down wrongly in my notes and put down 1911, but in actual fact it must be 1811 as I was looking through the Llangelynin Baptism Register for the years 1785 to 1811 when I saw the entry and remembered the name and address
From memory only, I think that Moses died about 1842 and was buried in Gyffin but I've never been able to find the grave there.
The ref for the Baptism record in the Conwy Archive is CEP 19/1/3
The Richard in the 1841 Census is probably your Richard if everything else fits but if you need anything following up please post it on here
I did have a look at British History online and put Henryd in and the Derwen Deg mine appears in the top right hand side of the map but don't know if the mine belonged to Moses
We are keeping well over here in Wales and hope that you and your are keeping well too
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Jom, just an after thought but you can see the Baptism for Richard online. You are probably aware of the site but just in case put into Google " FreeREG" and then enter his name. To simplify the search put these dates in 1810 & 1812.
Then scroll down on the counties and click on Caernarfonshire don't click on any of the Parishes but click on Baptism and sent it and you'll find Richard in Llangelynnin
The only thing it doesn't say is the abode but the original records do and that is why I made a note of it. I was looking for someone else and that's why I only noticed Richard's name but I wonder if there are other children there who had left home by the time of the 1841 Census? Just food for thought
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Thanks Hugo. I do have others offspring all baptised Gyffin. I have copies of their records. Seems they appear on free reg too, which I have used before but forget about from time to time
Seems as though Moses and Anne had 9 children
Hugh Bp Jan 1798 Buried Feb 1798
John Bp Jan 1798 (same day as Hugh)
Mary Bp 1800
Hugh Bp 1802 Buried 1803
Elizabeth Bp 1803
Hugh Bp 1806 Buried 1877 (as you may recall finding his greatly overgrown grave in the Glanwydden Cemetery with his wife Sarah)
Ellin Bp 1809
Richard Bp 1811
Anne Bp 1815
Thanks again. That's solved a query very nicely
;)
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Hi Jom, I know how you like to be certain on your research so I took a couple of photos when I was at the Archives today.
One is the Baptism record of Richard Jones who was Baptised in the Llangelynnin Parish Church in 1811, his is the very last entry in that particular Register
The other photo was taken of the Burial Register for the Gyffin Parish in 1842 so Moses must be buried in Gyffin but I can't find his grave in the records available.
Just for your information the Gyffin records for births, banns, marriages and deaths are from 1687 to 1970
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That's great, Hugo. Thank you so much. You recall me well ;)
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I was at the old Church of Llangelynnin yesterday and thought that you would like to see the Church where Richard Jones was Baptised.
It is one of the remotest Churches in North Wales and the octagonal font is probably the 13th or 14th century
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVCIomhqKk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVCIomhqKk)
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That's brilliant, Hugo. Thank you so much. You're very kind. $cool$. By the way I believe Moses was from Llangelynnin. He was certainly of that parish at the time of his marriage to Ann HUGHES in 1797. So double whammy. $good$
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I was in the Archives today and just in case I had a look at the Llangelynnin Baptism records to see if I could see anything for Moses Jones.
Those records go back to 1733 but I had a look at the records from 1738 to 1784 and could see no entry for a Moses Jones. Sorry about that, but I was hoping that he would have been there. He was probably Baptised but the question is where?
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No problem, Hugo. Thank you for the thought. I must have a concerted effort to find him myself. $drink$
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I checked the Gyffin Baptism records when I was in the Archives today and there was nothing for Moses Jones in the 1770's . The Gyffin records actually go back to 1687 but the ones I looked at were not in that good a condition although they were quite legible
Moses must have been Baptised but where? I do have one final thing to check and will look there next time
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Hi Hugo
Many thanks for looking. The only one I have found is a Moses JONES baptised Llanrwst 1774 son of Robert and Margaret. I can't decipher the abode but I has been transcribed as "Maethebrwd". How likely it is that this is mine, who can say. All I know is that Moses and his wife Ann (nee Hughes) seemed pretty determined to have a son named Hugh. 2 died before one survived. Would seem logical that they wanted a son named after one of their fathers perhaps or maybe it was taken from Ann's maiden name? As far as I know, Moses and Ann did not use the names Robert or Margaret for their offspring.
Robert and Margaret JONES of Maethebrwd also had William Bp 1768, HUGH bp 1769, Elizabeth bp 1771, (Moses bp 1774 as above), Thomas bp 1775, Evan bp 1778 and John bp 1783
Not quite sure where all that gets us in reality!!!!
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Hi Hugo
Many thanks for looking. The only one I have found is a Moses JONES baptised Llanrwst 1774 son of Robert and Margaret. I can't decipher the abode but I has been transcribed as "Maethebrwd".
That word is a new one to me and at a guess ir's Maeth = nourishment
a = and
brwd = hot
So it sounds very much like a latter day B & B unless anyone else has other ideas
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Ahhh ... Interesting Hugo. Cheers