Three Towns Forum
The Local => Times Past => Topic started by: Llechwedd on September 24, 2010, 12:55:36 pm
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Anyone know when exactly the American's were first billeted in Llandudno. i.e. month and year was it 1941?
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
I think you're right there Mike, it was definitely towards the end of WWII. They manned the gun emplacements on the Great & Little Orme's and helped run the Coast Artillery School.
They also brought quite a few vehicles with them - American tanks were often seen parked just off the Conway Road.
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
I think you're right there Mike, it was definitely towards the end of WWII. They manned the gun emplacements on the Great & Little Orme's and helped run the Coast Artillery School.
They also brought quite a few vehicles with them - American tanks were often seen parked just off the Conway Road.
I don't believe they ever manned the artillery school as it was only used by British Coastal Artillery regiments that were being trained in searchlights, gunnery and radio skills.
I once was told that they took over Lady Forester's (now St Dunstan's) and used it as a field hospital but this might just be heresay.
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
I think you're right there Mike, it was definitely towards the end of WWII. They manned the gun emplacements on the Great & Little Orme's and helped run the Coast Artillery School.
They also brought quite a few vehicles with them - American tanks were often seen parked just off the Conway Road.
I don't believe they ever manned the artillery school as it was only used by British Coastal Artillery regiments that were being trained in searchlights, gunnery and radio skills.
I once was told that they took over Lady Forester's (now St Dunstan's) and used it as a field hospital but this might just be heresay.
Oh, so what was the purpose of American troops being billeted to Llandudno then? They frequented a place named The Donut Dugout, which was an establishment in Vaughan Street, which catered to the US force.
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
I think you're right there Mike, it was definitely towards the end of WWII. They manned the gun emplacements on the Great & Little Orme's and helped run the Coast Artillery School.
They also brought quite a few vehicles with them - American tanks were often seen parked just off the Conway Road.
I don't believe they ever manned the artillery school as it was only used by British Coastal Artillery regiments that were being trained in searchlights, gunnery and radio skills.
I once was told that they took over Lady Forester's (now St Dunstan's) and used it as a field hospital but this might just be heresay.
Oh, so what was the purpose of American troops being billeted to Llandudno then? They frequented a place named The Donut Dugout, which was an establishment in Vaughan Street, which catered to the US force.
Here is part of a biography of a nurse from US Army 297th General Hospital Unit:
" It seemed in no time at all after receiving our notification to join the 297th General Hospital that we found ourselves burdened with 40 pound field packs and struggling up the gang plank of the Queen Elizabeth on Memorial Day weekend of 1944 (date of embarkation, May 30, 1944). I would not describe this trip as exactly a pleasure cruise! We were packed in like sardines: 10,000 battle ready troops and 75 nurses! Despite tight security in rerouting our troop transport train from New Jersey and boarding ship after midnight as a large security secret, we sailed from New York Harbor at high noon on Memorial Day 1944 with all New York standing dockside on the bright clear sunny day to wave “goodbye” to our troop laden ship! (By now we were sure that all Germany knew we were on the way.)
Unfortunately, we hit stormy weather in the mid-Atlantic with gale winds as we neared the Irish Sea. It seemed like a sheer miracle when we safely arrived at Gourock, Scotland, hours before dawn broke through the mist on 6 June 1944. We waited on deck for hours in a cold light drizzle to be taken off the ship by tender and put ashore. We were all deeply grateful to the British Red Cross volunteers waiting for us dockside in the “wee” hours of the morning with sandwiches and hot coffee.
Soon after we disembarked, we boarded a train for our destination in Llandudno, North Wales where we would spend the next few days awaiting and assembling our medical supplies. It was at our Llandudno stop-off when we first learned of the Normandy invasion and [Operation Overlord]. Again, another long train ride across Wales and the cold grey English countryside to Stourbridge on the Severn River, our final destination in the midlands of England."
Obviously this doesn't explain the soldiers with tanks! However I believe that in the build up to D-Day, American and Canadian troops and equipment were shipped over to the UK in huge numbers and they had to dock ships on the West Coast from Liverpool to Scotland well away from interception by German Planes getting wind of the huge army gathering. Llandudno was probably being used as a stop off for a while before moving South.
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Jack: I edited your post to make the quoted section appear where you wanted it.
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Thankyou
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Spoke to my Father and he says 1944, the same as Mike. He said the American tanks were parked in the area opposite the old Council Field football stadium. He also mentioned that the American serviceman did indeed man the guns at the artillery school.
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I remember tanks driving through Menai Bridge, possibly from Holyhead, Perhaps on the way to Llandudno? *&(
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So I've been reading a novel set in Llandudno called Jampot Smith (by Jeremy Brooks). It's set during the WWII years and there are a lot of mentions of a place called the Avondale (coffee shop, I assume). Where was it located?
http://www.libraryofwales.org/english/low_detail.asp?book_ID=32 (http://www.libraryofwales.org/english/low_detail.asp?book_ID=32)
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The Avondale restaurant was at 13 Mostyn Street, now Mixers wine bar which is above Pebbles
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The Avondale restaurant was at 13 Mostyn Street, now Mixers wine bar which is above Pebbles
Thanks, Sue, I never knew that! Here's a pic:
[smg id=1132]
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the avondale as i remember it was on the ground floor,you went through the bread /cakes shop into the bar at the back,the manager was edmond the pole,no second name probably to many J kYs,did this bar belong to charlie payne?
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How long ago was this Dwyforite? it is in the 1929 directory at 13 Mostyn street, with J.E.Payne the proprietor and Chris.Pardon Manager, so was a long standing business.
I thought it was upstairs because 13 Mostyn street is the wine bar address and the address of Pebbles is 11a, I suppose numbers change as buidlings get sub-divided.
Incidentally does anyone remember the Skyliner in the 1970's in the same area? I remember it well but not the exact location
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My OH remembers Edmund as manager at the Avondale in 1963 / l964. It was a bit like Sumners but not quite as posh.
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it was about 1964/5 that i was drinking in the back bar.on a rain off day we would kick the mud of our boots outside and go through the cafe into the bar ,edmond played hell about the mess but still allowed us in,he knew a gang of us we would spend a large amount of money, he was a very good host and would go of and make plates of sandwiches.there was allways a good fire to dry off around.sadly i can remember it well ,tony,terry ,tommy and davy bangor.tom pye the joiner his mate peter all passed on R.I.P. and how we used to wind edmond up about his sexuality,he was gay,nowadays you would be taken to court and fined for our behaviour about 3.45 pm he would throw us out shouting your barred barred,but come 7.30 we would be back all cleaned up and ready to go and not a word said, i do remember the odd time when he expected and got an apology.he was also the manager of the washington for a time ,i cant remember was it before or after the avondale . happy days
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There was a girl in my alpha form in JBGS during the early sixties called Julie Dale-Jones and I think her parents ran the Avondale at that time.
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Some excellent info and photo's of the Coastal Artillery School here:
http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/C086/34/Text.htm (http://www.fsgfort.com/DB/C086/34/Text.htm)
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WOW , Superb pics trojan , I have never seen these pics before , SUPERB!!!!! , i grew up in fairways ,this was my playground ! . how many shells (other than the sea variety) must there be off west shore coast ? ;D
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excellent, do you know of any similar ifo / pics for the Little Orme gunsite?
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Great to see my old home on the Gunsite, The fortified Guardroom. The walls were 18 inches thick, but no cavity, so the damp came through. My parents were always scrubbing the green mould of the inside walls, so one summer my father obtained some pitch, melted it in an old 40 gal. oil drum and painted it on the front walls of the house. It looked bloody awful, but it stopped the damp.
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You need to write that autobiography, Quiggs.
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Great find, Trojan, and, yes, Quiggs does need to write an account of life at the gunsites. :)
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I'm curious. I wonder if the author of this piece has mixed up both Little and Great Orme gunnery sites? This made me wonder:
There were several observation posts around Conwy Bay to observe fall of shot and check the range was clear of shipping.
Now, observation posts in CB wouldn't even see where shot from the West Shore battery fell, but they would see shot from the Little Orme batteries.
Secondly, although some of the images are clearly Great Orme, the positioning of the big gun sits, plus the angle from which the shot was taken make me think they look suspiciously like the Little Orme sites. And the shot with scaffolding, to which reference is made of the need for
a harbour for target towing craft
tend to make me think that was the deep water cliff on the Little Orme, which has been eroding into the sea for some years, but which was once heavily concreted as a small harbour.
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But I'd also add that the website is a great find. And it prompts me to check my father's photo collection to see if he took any shots.
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This one has me interested...
A costal artillery Practice camp was established on the Little Orme which whilst enabling Gunners from the East and South coasts exercise also served operationally, as the base of 21 Coast Defence Batter R.A. The H.Q. and senior officers Mess was located at the nearby Gogarth Abbey Hotel, Workshops at Red Garages and Central Place and junior officer’s messes at the Richmond and White Heather Hotels.
http://www.ffotograffiaeth.co.uk/Llandudno_WWII/ (http://www.ffotograffiaeth.co.uk/Llandudno_WWII/)
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This seems a recent shot
------This image has been removed following a complaint of copyright infringement.-----
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Angie's Special Place.... :o :P
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Angie's Special Place.... :o :P
yes I noticed that too L0L
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I'm curious. I wonder if the author of this piece has mixed up both Little and Great Orme gunnery sites? This made me wonder:
There were several observation posts around Conwy Bay to observe fall of shot and check the range was clear of shipping.
Now, observation posts in CB wouldn't even see where shot from the West Shore battery fell, but they would see shot from the Little Orme batteries.
Secondly, although some of the images are clearly Great Orme, the positioning of the big gun sits, plus the angle from which the shot was taken make me think they look suspiciously like the Little Orme sites. And the shot with scaffolding, to which reference is made of the need for
a harbour for target towing craft
tend to make me think that was the deep water cliff on the Little Orme, which has been eroding into the sea for some years, but which was once heavily concreted as a small harbour.
Ian, I think you might have mis-read it?
It says Conwy Bay, not Colwyn Bay?
From what I have read, the floating target ship was indeed towed in to the Conwy Estuary.
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Ian, I think you might have mis-read it?
It says Conwy Bay, not Colwyn Bay?
Dead right, Fester; I'll blame the eye-site, I think....
¢¢##
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My parents retired to a flat by the Old Peoples Centre and when we had the floods in Llandudno all the family Photos and Documents, which they had in a suitcase at the bottom of their wardrobe, were contaminated with Sewage and had to be thrown away. So I do not have any from my childhood. :(
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But Quiggs, you have them all in your memories mate... and commiting them to paper might bring it all back... )*)&
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Request for Information:
I was wondering if we knew of any data on the P.O.W. Camp at Bryn Estyn in Deganwy during the last war .
One of the History of Deganwy group mebers has visted Bryn Estyn House and asked , and apparently there was .....Camp 119 , Pabo Hall , Bryn ESTYN
Sue from Llandudno Archives has asked the group to see if we have any information, or whether anyone remembers the site.
Apparently a son of one of the ex Italian Prisoners is visting from Australia in June, and he has asked for information.
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I'm pretty sure there was a thread on Pabo Hall and another POW centre in the old forum but can't remember any details about it or who posted them sorry
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Bye-laws for the artillery practice range
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/051AAB9E-CEE6-4D9C-94C1-EE546D7569B3/0/llandudno_artillery_practice_range.pdf (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/051AAB9E-CEE6-4D9C-94C1-EE546D7569B3/0/llandudno_artillery_practice_range.pdf)
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excellent, do you know of any similar ifo / pics for the Little Orme gunsite?
This was the last surviving Little Orme gun emplacement:
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I think it was later than that - probably 1944 - possibly 43.
I think you're right there Mike, it was definitely towards the end of WWII. They manned the gun emplacements on the Great & Little Orme's and helped run the Coast Artillery School.
They also brought quite a few vehicles with them - American tanks were often seen parked just off the Conway Road.
I don't believe they ever manned the artillery school as it was only used by British Coastal Artillery regiments that were being trained in searchlights, gunnery and radio skills.
I once was told that they took over Lady Forester's (now St Dunstan's) and used it as a field hospital but this might just be heresay.
Oh, so what was the purpose of American troops being billeted to Llandudno then? They frequented a place named The Donut Dugout, which was an establishment in Vaughan Street, which catered to the US force.
Here is part of a biography of a nurse from US Army 297th General Hospital Unit:
" It seemed in no time at all after receiving our notification to join the 297th General Hospital that we found ourselves burdened with 40 pound field packs and struggling up the gang plank of the Queen Elizabeth on Memorial Day weekend of 1944 (date of embarkation, May 30, 1944). I would not describe this trip as exactly a pleasure cruise! We were packed in like sardines: 10,000 battle ready troops and 75 nurses! Despite tight security in rerouting our troop transport train from New Jersey and boarding ship after midnight as a large security secret, we sailed from New York Harbor at high noon on Memorial Day 1944 with all New York standing dockside on the bright clear sunny day to wave “goodbye” to our troop laden ship! (By now we were sure that all Germany knew we were on the way.)
Unfortunately, we hit stormy weather in the mid-Atlantic with gale winds as we neared the Irish Sea. It seemed like a sheer miracle when we safely arrived at Gourock, Scotland, hours before dawn broke through the mist on 6 June 1944. We waited on deck for hours in a cold light drizzle to be taken off the ship by tender and put ashore. We were all deeply grateful to the British Red Cross volunteers waiting for us dockside in the “wee” hours of the morning with sandwiches and hot coffee.
Soon after we disembarked, we boarded a train for our destination in Llandudno, North Wales where we would spend the next few days awaiting and assembling our medical supplies. It was at our Llandudno stop-off when we first learned of the Normandy invasion and [Operation Overlord]. Again, another long train ride across Wales and the cold grey English countryside to Stourbridge on the Severn River, our final destination in the midlands of England."
Obviously this doesn't explain the soldiers with tanks! However I believe that in the build up to D-Day, American and Canadian troops and equipment were shipped over to the UK in huge numbers and they had to dock ships on the West Coast from Liverpool to Scotland well away from interception by German Planes getting wind of the huge army gathering. Llandudno was probably being used as a stop off for a while before moving South.
Below is a photo of American servicemen (with a female sitting on the right) in The Donut Dugout, Vaughan Street.
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The Royal Artillery, 21st Coast Battery, Coast Artillery School pictured on Llandudno's Oval:
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Llandudno Home Guard
(http://)
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Great Orme Gunsite Byelaws:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/051AAB9E-CEE6-4D9C-94C1-EE546D7569B3/0/llandudno_artillery_practice_range.pdf (http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/051AAB9E-CEE6-4D9C-94C1-EE546D7569B3/0/llandudno_artillery_practice_range.pdf)
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I found No. 6 rather amusing:
"No person shall trawl, dredge, touch or search or otherwise interfere with any shot, shell, bomb. bullet or any other projectile...or be in possession of any shot, shell, bomb. bullet or any other projectile"
So that's the church lucky dip done for, then :-)))
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:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Whilst at the Gunsites the other day, I took this photo inside what I later learnt (from looking at the map) was the Engine Room. Does this mean Engines as in Generators for the Floodlights etc or something else?
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Gunsite and gun emplacements needed powerful engines in order to power the rotating platform that allowed the guns to rotate through a span of approx 120 degrees.
They also needed powered generators to allow the gun barrels to be raised and lowered.
Probably lighting and heating may have been provided as well? Not sure...
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The concrete blocks pictured on the floor of the engine room look like "beds" for diesel generators.
I would have thought the diesel engines would have been used to power the searchlights.
Second World War searchlights include models manufactured by General Electric and by the Sperry Company (of gyroscope fame). These were mostly of 60" (152.4 cm) diameter with rhodium plated parabolic mirror, reflecting a carbon arc discharge. Peak output was 800,000,000 candlepower. It was powered by a 15 kW generator and had an effective beam visibility of 28 to 35 miles (45 to 56 km) in clear low humidity.
Most of the school was probably hooked-up to the National Grid i.e. barracks etc, but you simply couldn't obtain 800,000,000 candlepower from household electricity.
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http://geotopoi.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/coast-artillery-school-1940-45-great-orme/ (http://geotopoi.wordpress.com/2010/11/06/coast-artillery-school-1940-45-great-orme/)
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Hi Suepp, just come across the 'Home Guard' photo you put on the forum. Are there any names on the back? Reason I ask is I'm almost positive the chap 3rd from right as you look at the photo is my Father. Though they are wearing RA badges they were called 'Home Guard' for some reason. They did most of the guarding and general duties on the Gun Site. He was 40 years old then. Any help much appreciated.
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Hi Tony, the photo is a copy from my cousin, I will ask her if there are any names on the back, my Taid Bob Edwards is on the far left in the photo, he was in his 30's
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Hi Suepp, thanks for that. I made a mistake, I meant 2nd from the right. I have a picture at home of the local army cricket 11 at the oval during the war. I will get it uploaded, you never know?
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No luck with names, I have sent you a PM
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TonyF has sent me the following photo (click photo to view full size):
"Gun Site cricket 11 at the oval 43/44. My Father is the one in uniform (eleventh man or on duty?) Does anyone recognise anybody? "
[smg id=2397]