Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

The Local => Local News & Discussion => Topic started by: wrex on September 13, 2010, 07:42:00 AM

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: wrex on September 13, 2010, 07:42:00 AM
 :)The pier Pavilion has just had a mention on bbc wales news,saying CCBC are looking to speak to the owners and get the heritage statues dropped,do not expect to hear anymore this year. ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 13, 2010, 10:03:53 AM
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:)The pier Pavilion has just had a mention on bbc wales news,saying CCBC are looking to speak to the owners and get the heritage statues dropped,do not expect to hear anymore this year. ???

There's a nice video report here, including some footage of the 1994 fire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11277813 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11277813)

Quite what it has to do with Old Colwyn Councillor Brian Cossey is beyond me though? Although, as I know from previous experience, he is happy to meddle in other areas if he thinks there is political gain for himself.  ::)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on September 13, 2010, 11:03:37 AM
Indeed.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 13, 2010, 10:55:07 PM
With regard to the CCBC Planning Dept,  rather than get to grips with important issues for the good of this town, they seem more than happy to put a lot of emphasis into investigating the small area of decking in my garden.

In recent weeks I have had numerous visits from four CCBC employees, letters, photographs, meetings galore.
The only issue at stake was ''whether'' I even needed planning permission ....God knows what I would have been subjected to if my decking had actually contravened any bylaws!

I would love to think that when they tackle weighty issues such as the Pier Pavilion , Clarence or Tudno Castle, they will be as meticulous and rigorous as they have been with me !

In regard to the BBC article about the Pavilion today...I got really excited that I was about to view something progressive....but all I saw was a couple of local luminaries settling for nothing more than bulldozing the site and tidying it up.
What a disappointing load of Bull,  If that is the extent of the vision we can expect from our representatives, then its a sad depressing situation.
I'm gutted....and very pessimistic now.   A total waste of time...resource....and missed opportunity.


 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: JasonW on September 14, 2010, 06:20:37 PM
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:)The pier Pavilion has just had a mention on bbc wales news,saying CCBC are looking to speak to the owners and get the heritage statues dropped,do not expect to hear anymore this year. ???

There's a nice video report here, including some footage of the 1994 fire:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11277813 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-11277813)

Quite what it has to do with Old Colwyn Councillor Brian Cossey is beyond me though? Although, as I know from previous experience, he is happy to meddle in other areas if he thinks there is political gain for himself.  ::)


I fear that expectation's may be being raised without substance.
The reality is that the subject was discussed at the Communities Scrutiny Committee (of which Cllr Cossey is the Chairman) at the request of Cllr Christine Jones. An update on all the failed attempts to move forward was presented and the issue discussed.
The sticking point remains to be the the fact it is in private owenership by a Mr Taylor from Worcestshire.
The committee resolved to invite Mr Taylor to a meeting to discuss his plans for the site.
The reloution of the meeting was:
a)         That the Pier Pavilion site be referred to the Strategic Site Development Group as a priority for review and for promotion as a re-development site in all the activities of the Group and constituent officers/departments.


(b)        That CADW be challenged on the reasons for retaining the Listed Building status on the site.

 

(c)        That the possibility of removing the covenants should be investigated.

 

(d)        That discussion be undertaken with the Economic and Regeneration Unit of the Welsh Assembly Government on the possibility of a Compulsory Purchase Order.

 

(e)        That a regular clean-up of the site should be undertaken, as and when necessary, together with the hoardings being replaced and the owner re-charged for any works undertaken.

 

(f)          That a letter be sent to the owner requesting a meeting with a small delegation of Members to discuss a way forward for the site.

See http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2344&Ver=4 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2344&Ver=4)
 for a copy of the report and minutes of the meeting.



Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 14, 2010, 06:40:20 PM
Speaking of the elusive Mr. Taylor, I remember a mysterious member on the old Forum who insisted that he had died - this was about 2 years ago. I wonder if that was some sort of ruse to throw us all off the scent?  :-X
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 14, 2010, 11:51:56 PM
So, I was right to be pessimistic, and ''underwhelmed'' by the momemtum that ''appeared'' to be building about the Pier Pavilion Site.

Under these circumstances I see no reason why the BBC wasted valuable resource covering this ''non-story''
I also cannot understand why John Lawson-Reay or Mr Williams woke from their slumber to get in front of the cameras, or was it just an ego trip?
I suspect that was the case....definitely true of the Upper Colwyn Councillor.

I may have to forget about this whole issue...its very bad for my health.

Rex, I fear that may also be the case for you in terms of the Railway Station ...thats another subject where the information flow is pretty damned cold at the moment.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 16, 2010, 10:38:47 PM
I don't believe that Mr Taylor of Worcester actually exists,  instead his name is a front for any number of dodgy companies.
Therefore I do not see it as being possible for a meeting to take place on this issue.

Mr Weyman has been quiet for a few days now, since your query?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 17, 2010, 09:23:37 PM
Thanks for researching the current situation with the Station for us.  *&(

I've heard this comment about the Pier Pavilion site before and it doesn't seem to match up with reality, in that any change of ownership must be registered with the Land Registry - here's the record for the site that I downloaded last year, it clearly shows he has been the owner since 1.10.1999:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 21, 2010, 09:48:13 PM
Ok, it's time for our favourite Llandudno eyesore...the Pier Pavilion site. The 1884 Pier Pavilion was destroyed by fire back in 1994 and nothing has been done about it since, despite the fact it occupies a very prominent site in Llandudno.

It's impossible to walk past without witnessing a few puzzled tourists gazing down into the ruins and speculating on:
(a) What the building originally was - I heard one man telling another the other day that it had been a railway station.  _))* _))*
(b) What sort of local authority allows such an eyesore to remain for so long?

The site is owned by a Worcester businessman, who wants to build a large apartment block on it. Because he can't do that, he's been sulking for 16 years and we will probably be stuck with the eyesore for many years to come.  Can you imagine an eyesore like this remaining for so long in any other major UK seaside resort?:rage:

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Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on October 21, 2010, 09:59:39 PM
Ohhhh ... don't get me going on this one.  Its depressing.

We went through all this, on this very thread 3 pages back ...at the time that the BBC News did a very brief and pointless article on it.

You are right to bring it back to the fore .... but I fear no matter how often you do this... nothing will be done.

 Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@ Z@@
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Pendragon on October 21, 2010, 10:43:40 PM
Would that be the reason it was set on fire in the first place maybe ? $hands$

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on October 22, 2010, 12:08:52 AM
22 separate seats to the fire, each one of sufficient intensity to burn the place down on its own. Can't understand why Mr Worcester Businessman wasn't done for arson, as he was the only one to gain by its professional done destruction. Do you recon once he found out he couldn't beat the planning regulations, he went to the Banks and borrowed money on the site? If so it could explain why he is quite content to leave things as they are, he has no need to build anything. What got me going was the way CCBC used the Local Development Plan to move the habitable zone boundary from down the side of the Grand Hotel to down the side of the Amusement Arcade. Then a couple of weeks ago Councillors were saying to the BBC we will have to try and get CADW to lift the Listing on the site. IT WAS A GRADE II LISTED BUILDING IN A CONSERVATION AREA! If you want to see a coach and horses driven through the protection this Town has enjoyed then get in touch with your local Councillor and tell him you think its a good idea. If you love the Town as I do write to CADW and tell them you want the protection to remain. One final point; if the Council was able in these austere times to compulsorily purchase the site and then changed the planning regulations to let someone like Anwyl  for instance, build on the site, just think about the law suite  Mr Worcester Businessman would instigate against CCBC. ))*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on October 22, 2010, 04:39:44 AM
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Thanks for researching the current situation with the Station for us.  *&(

I've heard this comment about the Pier Pavilion site before and it doesn't seem to match up with reality, in that any change of ownership must be registered with the Land Registry - here's the record for the site that I downloaded last year, it clearly shows he has been the owner since 1.10.1999:

I've done some digging. This is a picture of Mr David Taylor's 'house' http://goo.gl/maps/2fVA (http://goo.gl/maps/2fVA) which was the offices of Estate Management Warwickshire Ltd. According to Companies House this company only existed between 15/09/2005 to 17/11/2005 as a non trading company. From 10/07/2003 to 16/02/2010 this was also the registered address of 19 non trading companies starting with the name 'E U' - source http://ukdata.com/a-z/Eu-1.html (http://ukdata.com/a-z/Eu-1.html). On the 12/05/05 the registered address was changed to  40-44 Tan Lane, Stourport on  Severn, Worcestershire http://goo.gl/maps/IGtr (http://goo.gl/maps/IGtr). This address was the registered address of yet more non trading companies. Was David Taylor an employee or director of any of these companies or it's predecessors? Who exactly owns's the bomb site now? The plot now thickens!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 08:24:08 AM
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22 separate seats to the fire, each one of sufficient intensity to burn the place down on its own. Can't understand why Mr Worcester Businessman wasn't done for arson, as he was the only one to gain by its professional done destruction. Do you recon once he found out he couldn't beat the planning regulations, he went to the Banks and borrowed money on the site? If so it could explain why he is quite content to leave things as they are, he has no need to build anything.
This is all very interesting. How did you hear about the 22 separate seats to the fire, I've never heard that before? Surely a professional arsonist would be smarter than that?

Mr Taylor hasn't borrowed any money against the value of the site (whatever the value may be - opinions vary!). If he had borrowed any money, then a 'Charge' would appear on the Land Registry record, and there are none.

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What got me going was the way CCBC used the Local Development Plan to move the habitable zone boundary from down the side of the Grand Hotel to down the side of the Amusement Arcade. Then a couple of weeks ago Councillors were saying to the BBC we will have to try and get CADW to lift the Listing on the site. IT WAS A GRADE II LISTED BUILDING IN A CONSERVATION AREA! If you want to see a coach and horses driven through the protection this Town has enjoyed then get in touch with your local Councillor and tell him you think its a good idea. If you love the Town as I do write to CADW and tell them you want the protection to remain. One final point; if the Council was able in these austere times to compulsorily purchase the site and then changed the planning regulations to let someone like Anwyl  for instance, build on the site, just think about the law suite  Mr Worcester Businessman would instigate against CCBC. ))*
I can't see that residential usage would ever be allowed - it would be as overpowering as that awful block of flats by the Royal Hotel. Llandudno desperately needs a large all-weather attraction and the Pavilion site is the only realistic place for it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on October 22, 2010, 09:24:18 AM
Quote
If you love the Town as I do write to CADW and tell them you want the protection to remain.

Two things occur: do we have a lawyer on the forum?  If so, and they could get in touch with Dave or me - in compete confidence of course - then we might be able to draw on some professionally informed legal knowledge.

The second thing is that we could draft a template letter for this purpose, and for any future actions which forum members might be interested in taking.

This forum is growing - steadily and soundly - and it could become a real force for good in the area. Certainly, its existence is becoming well known, as I was invited to join it by someone, recently  :-))


:-X :-X :-X
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 01:53:44 PM
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I've done some digging. This is a picture of Mr David Taylor's 'house' http://goo.gl/maps/2fVA (http://goo.gl/maps/2fVA) which was the offices of Estate Management Warwickshire Ltd. According to Companies House this company only existed between 15/09/2005 to 17/11/2005 as a non trading company. From 10/07/2003 to 16/02/2010 this was also the registered address of 19 non trading companies starting with the name 'E U' - source http://ukdata.com/a-z/Eu-1.html (http://ukdata.com/a-z/Eu-1.html). On the 12/05/05 the registered address was changed to  40-44 Tan Lane, Stourport on  Severn, Worcestershire http://goo.gl/maps/IGtr (http://goo.gl/maps/IGtr). This address was the registered address of yet more non trading companies. Was David Taylor an employee or director of any of these companies or it's predecessors? Who exactly owns's the bomb site now? The plot now thickens!
Interesting info there. Welcome to the forum, btw.  :) I believe the Pavilion site is owned by David Taylor personally now. There was some speculation at one time about whether he even existed but CCBC apparently believes he does and he is described as a 'market operator'.  ?{}?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 01:58:35 PM
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What got me going was the way CCBC used the Local Development Plan to move the habitable zone boundary from down the side of the Grand Hotel to down the side of the Amusement Arcade.
Did they suceed in this? In the LDP Report, it says "The site is situated entirely within a C2 Flood Risk zone and should be subjected to a justification test. More suitable sites should be considered for allocation", together with a recommendation it not be included?

At the CCBC meeting in August, it was decided that:

"The Local Electoral Division Member, Councillor Christine Jones, had requested this report as the Pier Pavilion was a high profile site, and had been derelict for over 15 years, following a fire which destroyed the original building.

Discussion between the site owner and a number of interested parties had failed to result in the submission of a project requiring planning permission/listed building consent.

CADW wished to retain the Listed Building status of the site in order to maintain control of any re-development opportunities which came forward in the future.

Previously there had been an offer by the Welsh Development Agency to assist any prospective development, with a viable and acceptable scheme to utilise its compulsory purchase powers, and further powers to ‘cleanse’ the legal title by removing various covenants.  Unfortunately, this opportunity had been lost, with the abolition of the Welsh Development Agency.

Discussion and comments were as follows:-

It was understood that ownership of the site was currently in the personal possession of Mr Taylor

Llandudno was unlikely to be designated as a regeneration area, although unemployment had probably risen in the town, unemployment was a national issue

CADW should be challenged on the reasons for retaining the Listed Building status on the site

The possibility of removing the covenants should be investigated

Discussion should be undertaken with the Economic and Regeneration Unit of the Welsh Assembly Government on the possibility of a Compulsory Purchase Order

A regular clean-up of the site should be undertaken, as and when necessary, together with the hoardings being replaced, and the owner re-charged for any works undertaken

A letter should be sent to the owner, requesting a meeting with a small delegation of Members, to discuss a way forward for the site

The site should be referred to the Strategic Site Development Group."

Full Report here:  http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=19458 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=19458)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on October 22, 2010, 02:05:20 PM
Another point occurs . This tactic of leaving the site as it is works only because CCBC lacks the funds or the legal mandate to remove it from him.  Perhaps it's time to start contacting MPs such as Guto and asking them whether there needs to be a change in the law to deal with absentee landlords who try this on. After a decent period, perhaps anyone who does something like this should forfeit the right to it entirely.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on October 22, 2010, 03:45:45 PM
These are the laws that are available to CCBC http://www.emptyhomes.com/usefulresources/local_authority_powers.html (http://www.emptyhomes.com/usefulresources/local_authority_powers.html)
Why aren't they using them?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on October 22, 2010, 03:55:42 PM
Which one could they use? Many of those regs apply to empty buildings, not what is effectively a building site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on October 22, 2010, 04:20:09 PM
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22 separate seats to the fire, each one of sufficient intensity to burn the place down on its own. Can't understand why Mr Worcester Businessman wasn't done for arson, as he was the only one to gain by its professional done destruction. Do you recon once he found out he couldn't beat the planning regulations, he went to the Banks and borrowed money on the site? If so it could explain why he is quite content to leave things as they are, he has no need to build anything.
This is all very interesting. How did you hear about the 22 separate seats to the fire, I've never heard that before? Surely a professional arsonist would be smarter than that?

"We have to have our place inspected by the North Wales Fire Service Dave, and it was whist in discusion with a fire office who had been in attendance at the fire and who was involved in the subsequent fire investigation, that the manner and number of sources was told to me. He wasn't a bull sh**er by any manner of means and I have no reason to doubt what he told me was correct." *&(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on October 22, 2010, 04:42:16 PM
Ian, its quite possible to use the Town and Country Planning Act 1990   1990c.8 - continued  Part VIII - Special Controls - continued  Chapter II
Land Adversely Affecting Amenity of Neighbourhood.  Thanks to an anonymous friend I was given a copy of the said and used it to get Mrs. Betty Williams help in getting the site cleaned up. At her surgery meeting, she had to call her secretary in Westminster to check with the House of Commons Library to see if it was still on the statute book and to its relevance. It was and still is. )*)&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 06:50:55 PM
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22 separate seats to the fire, each one of sufficient intensity to burn the place down on its own. Can't understand why Mr Worcester Businessman wasn't done for arson, as he was the only one to gain by its professional done destruction. Do you recon once he found out he couldn't beat the planning regulations, he went to the Banks and borrowed money on the site? If so it could explain why he is quite content to leave things as they are, he has no need to build anything.
This is all very interesting. How did you hear about the 22 separate seats to the fire, I've never heard that before? Surely a professional arsonist would be smarter than that?

"We have to have our place inspected by the North Wales Fire Service Dave, and it was whist in discusion with a fire office who had been in attendance at the fire and who was involved in the subsequent fire investigation, that the manner and number of sources was told to me. He wasn't a bull sh**er by any manner of means and I have no reason to doubt what he told me was correct." *&(
I don't doubt you for a second, it just sounds so over the top. Surely by doing it like that, the person responsible makes it obvious even to a one eyed Albanian that it was arson?  ?{}?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 07:06:54 PM
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Which one could they use? Many of those regs apply to empty buildings, not what is effectively a building site.
All Local Authorities have the ability to do a Compulsory Purchase. However, it is necessary for the Local Authority to show that it has a specific usage for the property once it has been acquired, otherwise the attempt will fail. Parliament has always taken the view that land should only be taken compulsorily where there is clear evidence that the public benefit will outweigh the private loss.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on October 22, 2010, 08:16:40 PM
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Which one could they use? Many of those regs apply to empty buildings, not what is effectively a building site.
All Local Authorities have the ability to do a Compulsory Purchase. However, it is necessary for the Local Authority to show that it has a specific usage for the property once it has been acquired, otherwise the attempt will fail. Parliament has always taken the view that land should only be taken compulsorily where there is clear evidence that the public benefit will outweigh the private loss.

The site could be used to house the new lifeboat station, that's a public benefit  8)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Trojan on October 23, 2010, 04:29:35 AM
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22 separate seats to the fire, each one of sufficient intensity to burn the place down on its own. Can't understand why Mr Worcester Businessman wasn't done for arson, as he was the only one to gain by its professional done destruction. Do you recon once he found out he couldn't beat the planning regulations, he went to the Banks and borrowed money on the site? If so it could explain why he is quite content to leave things as they are, he has no need to build anything.
This is all very interesting. How did you hear about the 22 separate seats to the fire, I've never heard that before? Surely a professional arsonist would be smarter than that?

"We have to have our place inspected by the North Wales Fire Service Dave, and it was whist in discusion with a fire office who had been in attendance at the fire and who was involved in the subsequent fire investigation, that the manner and number of sources was told to me. He wasn't a bull sh**er by any manner of means and I have no reason to doubt what he told me was correct." *&(
I don't doubt you for a second, it just sounds so over the top. Surely by doing it like that, the person responsible makes it obvious even to a one eyed Albanian that it was arson?  ?{}?

So why wasn't there an arson investigation by the police and a prosecution?  :-\
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on October 23, 2010, 08:13:10 PM

The site could be used to house the new lifeboat station, that's a public benefit  8)
[/quote]
Several years ago we asked the RNLI if they would consider using the site for a Lifeboat Museum after they told us the site wasn't suitable for an operational Lifeboat Station, but they said they weren’t planning to do that. We also wrote to the Tate Modern and asked if they would consider using the site for one of their Regional Galleries but again we were declined. We haven’t given up though and are still looking, as everyone deserves to have a decent neighbour.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Trojan on October 24, 2010, 05:14:05 AM
If you're serious blongb, threre wouldn't be enough water there at low tide to have a lifeboat station at that location.  ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 02, 2010, 01:01:45 AM
When I mentioned to Motorhead's Lemmy,  that since he last visited the area, ...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING had been done about the Pier Pavilion,  this is the reaction I got.
(My obsession grows as 13th November grows near)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Trojan on November 02, 2010, 05:36:35 AM
 L0L
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 02, 2010, 11:29:51 PM
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If you're serious blongb, threre wouldn't be enough water there at low tide to have a lifeboat station at that location.  ???
Sorry Trojan, I said we asked the RNLI to put a Lifeboat Museum there which would have meet the planning requirements for the site and wouldn't require any water )*)&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Trojan on November 03, 2010, 01:17:30 AM
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If you're serious blongb, threre wouldn't be enough water there at low tide to have a lifeboat station at that location.  ???
Sorry Trojan, I said we asked the RNLI to put a Lifeboat Museum there which would have meet the planning requirements for the site and wouldn't require any water )*)&

I see blongb. I've re-read your post while sober.  $booboo$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 03, 2010, 08:17:56 AM
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Several years ago we asked the RNLI if they would consider using the site for a Lifeboat Museum after they told us the site wasn't suitable for an operational Lifeboat Station, but they said they weren’t planning to do that. We also wrote to the Tate Modern and asked if they would consider using the site for one of their Regional Galleries but again we were declined. We haven’t given up though and are still looking, as everyone deserves to have a decent neighbour.
Indeed, but the problem is that the Pavilion's owner won't sell, regardless of the scheme you present to him. Several leisure industry developers have contacted him over the years but his valuation is based upon the site being sold for residential use, which is way beyond what any leisure developer could pay. This is why a CPO is the only route forward.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2010, 04:46:28 PM
The Pavilion site has annoyed visitors and residents for years and it seems inconceivable that the Council has allowed it to go on for so long with no apparent solution in sight.     
The CPO that Dave has suggested seems to be the best way out and if CCBC has neither the nous or the legal expertise to carry out the procedure then they should consult a legal advisor who does know what to do.
Which ever consultant they engage I hope that they have the common sense not to use the same firm who created the West Shore sea defence fiasco!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 12, 2010, 11:45:12 PM
Lest we forget...!  The Pier Pavilion.

Isn't it amazing how there was a BBC news story abou possible ''action'' over the drelict site.   Council meetings with the owner were imminent.
That was followed up by a newspaper article on the subject, churning out the same old rubbish .... best option quoted was to bulldoze the site and landscape it.

We all know that is NOT the best option ...in fact its nowhere near the best option.   An attractive structure befitting the town's heritage with a useful purpose would be nearer the mark.

But now, its all gone silent again... deadly silent.....and we will have to put up with complete inertia for another couple of years until it pops to the top of someones agenda again.   A letter or two, a nostalgic article.... nothing more.
It should be at the top of the Town councils agenda every week ... and high up on CCBC agenda too, until the pressure (or embarrassment) leads to something being done.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on November 13, 2010, 01:26:47 PM
 :( Fester having sat on the town council for nine years the Pier Pavillion was brought up twice,once by Roy Gambrill and once by Malcom Bullock both since lost their seats,really caring about LLandudno does not go down well on the council . ¢¢##
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2010, 07:54:33 PM
Went down for a wander into the bowels of the Pier Pavilion site today:

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on November 14, 2010, 08:44:07 AM
Great pics Dave--- walked past you lurking with your camera yesterday !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2010, 09:28:36 AM
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Great pics Dave--- walked past you lurking with your camera yesterday !
I must learn to blend into the background better!  ;D

There were a lot of people looking down at me as I was taking the photos. "What's he doing, Doris?"  _))*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 14, 2010, 09:37:00 PM
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Great pics Dave--- walked past you lurking with your camera yesterday !
I must learn to blend into the background better!  ;D

There were a lot of people looking down at me as I was taking the photos. "What's he doing, Doris?"  _))*

Only a 'chameleon' can blend into its background effectively ... speaking of which, I'm intrigued how you managed to get in there....'snake'like!  ?{}?

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2010, 09:59:12 PM
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Great pics Dave--- walked past you lurking with your camera yesterday !
I must learn to blend into the background better!  ;D

There were a lot of people looking down at me as I was taking the photos. "What's he doing, Doris?"  _))*

Only a 'chameleon' can blend into its background effectively ... speaking of which, I'm intrigued how you managed to get in there....'snake'like!  ?{}?
The gate was ajar, so I walked straight in!  ;D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on December 03, 2010, 05:46:34 PM
I recently made an FOI request to see how much work CCBC had carried out on the Pier Pavilion site and whether they had passed the cost on to the owner. The invoices they released to me are here:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/51059/response/130585/attach/2/1462%2010.pdf (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/51059/response/130585/attach/2/1462%2010.pdf)
...and show a total of £2600 has been invoiced to Mr Taylor in the last 12 months (and been paid). Eagle eyed Pavilion watchers will realise that no invoice is listed for the expensive metal fence that was put up around the Happy Valley Road perimeter of the site this year - does this mean that taxpayers have footed the bill for securing private property? I have asked CCBC for clarification on this point. It would be disgraceful if it turned out that several thousand pounds of our money had been spent on that fence and I see no reason why taxpayers should foot the bill.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 16, 2011, 08:50:57 AM
I've just sent a question to Janet Finch Saunders via Twitter:

@JFinchSaunders How is CCBC able to do a CPO on the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, yet refuses to do one on the Pier Pavilion site in Llandudno?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 16, 2011, 12:18:00 PM
It will be very interesting to see her reply Dave.    :)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on April 16, 2011, 01:29:45 PM
I have also been in touch with JF-S and this is her reply:

I suppose they could argue that the asset values are of immensely
different scale, however the principle remains the same and whether
the will is there. I have asked to be involved in discussions with
site owners and agents of Pier Pavilion Site, so hopefully I do hope
that in the not too distant future we can move something forward
that will bring much value to Llandudno as an asset instead of the
current remaining eyesore.

A pretty fair answer I think, and seems to indicate that she is as keen as any of us to get something befitting the town.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 17, 2011, 03:48:48 PM
That is a fair Politician's answer Yorkie but exactly who are the people involved in the discussions with the site owners and agents of the Pier Pavillion site?     ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on April 17, 2011, 04:35:21 PM
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That is a fair Politician's answer Yorkie but exactly who are the people involved in the discussions with the site owners and agents of the Pier Pavillion site?     ???

As you would probably expect - I haven't a clue.  I only asked the one question of JF-S.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 17, 2011, 05:08:55 PM
She's talking about CCBC. I'm not convinced by her assertion that 'the asset values are of immensely different scale'. The Pier Pavilion site is an awkward site to develop, is still classified as a Listed Building and has several very restrictive covenants covering future usage of the land. Given that a CPO is based upon an independent valuation of the open market value of the Land as it stands now, I don't see a CPO is out of the reach of CCBC. As I said, if it can be done for the old Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, surely it can be done for a very prominent site in Llandudno?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 16, 2011, 06:00:23 PM
Our old friend, the Pier Pavilion site, gets a special mention in the proposed Local Development Plan;

CR4 / MS11 - Pier Pavilion, Llandudno
"The pier pavilion site on Llandudno promenade has been proposed for tourism
and/or leisure uses. Being on the promenade in a central location and within
the boundaries of the Llandudno Conservation Area, a sensitive design
approach would be required for any proposal. The Council supports the use of
this site for tourism/leisure uses and discussions are ongoing with the owners
with a view to developing in the early to medium Plan phases."

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/upload/public/attachments/448/BP21_Site_Deliverability_Assessment.pdf (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/upload/public/attachments/448/BP21_Site_Deliverability_Assessment.pdf)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 07, 2011, 09:45:07 PM
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I fear that expectation's may be being raised without substance.
The reality is that the subject was discussed at the Communities Scrutiny Committee (of which Cllr Cossey is the Chairman) at the request of Cllr Christine Jones. An update on all the failed attempts to move forward was presented and the issue discussed.
The sticking point remains to be the the fact it is in private owenership by a Mr Taylor from Worcestshire.
The committee resolved to invite Mr Taylor to a meeting to discuss his plans for the site.
The reloution of the meeting was:
a)         That the Pier Pavilion site be referred to the Strategic Site Development Group as a priority for review and for promotion as a re-development site in all the activities of the Group and constituent officers/departments.


(b)        That CADW be challenged on the reasons for retaining the Listed Building status on the site.

 

(c)        That the possibility of removing the covenants should be investigated.

 

(d)        That discussion be undertaken with the Economic and Regeneration Unit of the Welsh Assembly Government on the possibility of a Compulsory Purchase Order.

 

(e)        That a regular clean-up of the site should be undertaken, as and when necessary, together with the hoardings being replaced and the owner re-charged for any works undertaken.

 

(f)          That a letter be sent to the owner requesting a meeting with a small delegation of Members to discuss a way forward for the site.

See http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2344&Ver=4 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2344&Ver=4)
 for a copy of the report and minutes of the meeting.

Jason, can I ask if anything ever transpired from this meeting? In particular, was a meeting with David Taylor ever held and what progress has been made in regard to the Compulsory Purchase order?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on June 07, 2011, 11:47:19 PM
Very good question Dave,  I am very keen to see some follow up and tangible progress on this issue.

Especially seeing as our new Mayor has made the Pier Pavilion site a top priority.
365 days passes very quickly Mr Robbins!

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: JasonW on June 14, 2011, 09:43:03 PM
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Jason, did you see this post:
http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=42.msg29070#msg29070 (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=42.msg29070#msg29070)
A meeting did happen between officers, Cllr Brian Cossey and a representative of the owner. The owner seems insistent in holding out to develop the site. I understand a new set of plans were to be submitted "soon", but I understand the expectation is that the development will yet again be to large for the site and the surrounding area.  I will ask for an update on the other actions.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Llechwedd on June 15, 2011, 12:07:51 PM
Why don't the planning department just say to the owner you haven't got a hope of ever "developing" this land and do a compulsory purchase?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on June 15, 2011, 12:59:52 PM
Quote
Why don't the planning department just say to the owner you haven't got a hope of ever "developing" this land and do a compulsory purchase?

Probably because he'd appeal.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 16, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
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Quote
Why don't the planning department just say to the owner you haven't got a hope of ever "developing" this land and do a compulsory purchase?

Probably because he'd appeal.
...which wouldn't work unless CCBC had not followed the CPO procedure correctly. That is the only real ground for granting such an appeal, so the CPO procedure tends to go through smoothly if done properly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 16, 2011, 10:11:13 PM
Regarding the Pier Pavilion, I found these cuttings from the Llandudno Regeneration Strategy report done back in the early 1990s(?). It recommends the reconstruction of the Pavilion as a multi-use leisure facility:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 12, 2011, 09:26:04 AM
CCBC Report has been issued on the Compulsory Purchase of Colwyn Bay's derelict former Market Hall. I believe the cost is around £800,000. My question is this...given that Llandudno's Pier Pavilion site has been a far larger and more prominent eyesore for many years, why will CCBC not carry out a CPO on that site, given that the reasons stated for acquisition of the Market Hall apply equally to the Pavilion site?

http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/published/c00000171/m00002707/ai00029836/ (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/published/c00000171/m00002707/ai00029836/)$reporttocpomarkethallpart2.doc.pdf
(please copy and paste link to view)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on July 12, 2011, 08:21:53 PM
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CCBC Report has been issued on the Compulsory Purchase of Colwyn Bay's derelict former Market Hall. I believe the cost is around £800,000. My question is this...given that Llandudno's Pier Pavilion site has been a far larger and more prominent eyesore for many years, why will CCBC not carry out a CPO on that site, given that the reasons stated for acquisition of the Market Hall apply equally to the Pavilion site?

http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/published/c00000171/m00002707/ai00029836/ (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/published/c00000171/m00002707/ai00029836/)$reporttocpomarkethallpart2.doc.pdf
(please copy and paste link to view)

link doesn't work. use www.bit.ly (http://www.bit.ly) to shorten it to something like http://bit.ly/qOWMdD (http://bit.ly/qOWMdD)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on July 30, 2011, 01:22:27 PM
BBC News - Llandudno pier: No development for 'eyesore' pavilion http://bbc.in/pcy0hQ (http://bbc.in/pcy0hQ)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on July 30, 2011, 01:57:55 PM
That's really depressing news but not totally unexpected.   CCBC need to get their act together and the Councillors acting for this ward should be asking serious questions now!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on July 30, 2011, 02:21:57 PM
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That's really depressing news but not totally unexpected.   CCBC need to get their act together and the Councillors acting for this ward should be asking serious questions now!

as well as the AM's and the MP
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on July 30, 2011, 04:30:46 PM
more info on the council meeting this week about the pier pavillion site http://bit.ly/r6Q5ZA (http://bit.ly/r6Q5ZA)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on July 30, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
That's good stuff and very interesting reading Dwsi but I'm afraid that Para 10.2 sums it all up.  It's going nowhere.
If the owner has not co-operated after 17 years he is not likely to do so now especially in this economic climate.
Surely there is someone some where who is competent to sort out the uncooperative owner of the site.
The site has been enclosed for more than 12 years so can't someone claim it?
There are ways and means to sort out even the most complicated mess and the owner should be penalised for this and certainly not rewarded in any way but this should have been done in the 90's not at this late date.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian Ralph on July 30, 2011, 05:41:11 PM
Whats the rules on Squatting? I am sure I heard someone in llandulas stayed at an empty site tidied it and subsequently claimed ownership ( I was drinking at the time). If such an action was possible with the owner ignoring the site we could all take turns at babysitting the squat and then claim ownership.... I have heard dafter ideas.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on July 30, 2011, 05:51:57 PM
Not sure, but I think you have to gain entry without damaging anything then occupy the place for seven years.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Pendragon on July 30, 2011, 06:26:10 PM
Taken from http://www.wrighthassall.co.uk/resources/articles/art_nb1203.aspx (http://www.wrighthassall.co.uk/resources/articles/art_nb1203.aspx)

If the land squatted on is unregistered, the old law continues to apply: a squatter needs to prove continuous possession of the land for at least 12 years in a manner that was intended to keep out the true owner and give the impression that the claimant is the owner. In order to do this the squatter can apply to the Land Registry to be registered with possessory title to that land.  The circumstances relied on in support of the claim will be set out in a Statutory Declaration sworn by the squatter. This sets out full particulars of the period over which the squatting has taken place, details of the use the squatter has made of the land over that period and of action taken by the squatter to show intention to "take over" the land (e.g. putting up a fence).

You have to be unchallenged for 12 years to claim a site.  However new legislation is now being drawn up with effect from next spring.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/politics/article-23969548-squatters-face-a-new-home-in-jail-under-move-to-toughen-law.do (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/politics/article-23969548-squatters-face-a-new-home-in-jail-under-move-to-toughen-law.do)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on July 30, 2011, 11:43:59 PM
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BBC News - Llandudno pier: No development for 'eyesore' pavilion http://bbc.in/pcy0hQ (http://bbc.in/pcy0hQ)

That article is a disgrace, and a total waste of time... in other words a non-story.
They might as well report. 'Glenn Miller is Still Missing''   .... or 'Elvis is still Dead.'

Why is no mention made of Compulsory Purchase?, if they say it is such an important site?

It can't be important, otherwise something would be continually happening, and pressure would be brought to bear on the so called 'owner'

Even local luminaries such as J Lawson-Reay and the ineffective David Williams can't think of anything better than grassing it over.  :o
No one cares, so they might as well stop wasting time reporting it, and our new Mayor should save his breath pretending he can sort it out in his year of office.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on July 31, 2011, 09:02:29 AM
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Even local luminaries such as J Lawson-Reay and the ineffective David Williams can't think of anything better than grassing it over.  :o

No one cares, so they might as well stop wasting time reporting it, and our new Mayor should save his breath pretending he can sort it out in his year of office.

Maybe grassing it over is a good idea, it can then be turned into a camp site for itinerant travellers .   Watch them spring into action then!    D)

Now if you were thinking of building a pub on the site, the Mayor's enthusiasm would probably increase a thousandfold - but - he would still be unable to have any effect on the development!    L0L

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on July 31, 2011, 10:19:15 AM
  :( How did Colwyn Bay manage to get CCBC to buy the pier yet ignore the Pier Pavilion site in Llandudno.I think the reason CCBC have decided to take the pier on is because they are spending millions on Colwyn Bay prom they realise this mess would still be standing in the middle of all the new .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on July 31, 2011, 12:56:09 PM
If a highly paid lawyer has enough knowledge of loopholes in the law to get a football manager off a charge of driving on the hard shoulder of a motorway because the manager has got an alleged dose of the trots, surely there is someone out there with enough planning knowledge to get around this obstacle with the present owner of the Pier Pavillion sorted out.
Order to repair notices, compulsary purchase notices, squatters rights and enclosure acts have all been suggested and somewhere amongst the suggestions must be an answer to this problem. It just can't go on and on and someone in authority must take the initiative and take some action to resolve this matter once and for all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 31, 2011, 05:15:10 PM
I note the conclusion in the Pier Pavilion Report:

"To seek endorsement of continued officer efforts to promote the
evolution of appropriate re-development proposals for the site.
Without the owner co-operation, even if Planning and Listed Building
Consent are eventually granted for the site, there are few
mechanisms available to secure implementation of a scheme other
than by private sector investment. The intervention of the Council
under Listed Building powers is not practicable and any direct
intervention (such as by way of compulsory purchase) would require
prior planning permission, Listed Building Consent, resource
allocation and extensive procedural processes.
At present there are
no clear funding sources that could assist in facilitating Council
intervention or the development of the site by a private owner."

Given the above, it's seemingly amazing how any Compulsory Purchase ever goes though. But, of course, they do, on a regular basis. In the past, the WDA have offered to intervene using their own powers to break the deadlock - why was their offer not taken up? If CCBC was a business, they would have gone bankrupt years ago, such is their inefficiency.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on July 31, 2011, 05:22:52 PM
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 If CCBC was a business, they would have gone bankrupt years ago, such is their inefficiency.

Are they, in fact, solvent?  Or is it only massive borrowing that is keeping the services (almost) running?   WWW
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on August 02, 2011, 08:51:43 PM
Llandudno Pier Pavilion theatre eyesore ‘should be grassed over’ - Daily Post  http://bit.ly/p8KOUg (http://bit.ly/p8KOUg)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 19, 2011, 05:02:29 PM
I've just posted the Pier Pavilion site on fix my street, I doubt anything will happen, but worth a go!

http://www.fixmystreet.com/report/198743 (http://www.fixmystreet.com/report/198743)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2011, 10:26:34 PM
The Design Panel report on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion site has recently been made available via an FOI Request (see Report Link below). As is to be expected, the owners' proposals for the site (a 200 bedroom hotel rising up to the height of the Grand Hotel) are pretty horrifying and the Panel said just that, having 'serious concerns' about both the design and scale of the development. Once again, it is very clear that the Owner of the site has no regard whatsoever for Llandudno and the only solution is for a CPO to enable CBBC to take the site from him and develop it in a more sensitive manner. Unless of course, Llandudno's Mayor, Mr Robbins, sorts out the issue himself as he promised some months ago.  :roll:  :laugh:


Full Report:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/81703/response/206054/attach/2/Pier%20Pavilion%20Llandudno%20Design%20Review%20report%20CON%20240311.pdf (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/81703/response/206054/attach/2/Pier%20Pavilion%20Llandudno%20Design%20Review%20report%20CON%20240311.pdf)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on August 31, 2011, 10:37:08 PM
Its a very dismissive report.

It intrisically calls the application 'unprofessional'
Without any schematics or diagrams to support the proposal, then it most certainly is.

We are no further forward.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2011, 10:59:17 AM
Calls for Llandudno's pier pavilion site to be revived
Sep 15 2011 By Judith Philips

FEARS that an opportunity to develop Llandudno’s long standing eyesore Pier Pavilion site may have been lost have been expressed.

And a call has been made for politicians to intervene after a proposal to build a 200-bed hotel for a major hotel chain on the land received a setback.

A development company had apparently been in negotiation with Conwy County Council planners for 18 months about the project.

But in March, because the site falls within the Grade 2 protected building listing of the pier, they showed their outline plans to the Design Commission for Wales Review Panel who said it couldn’t approve the project because there was insufficient detail.

A report issued as a result of a Freedom of Information request from a member of the public says: "The panel thought the material presented was premature and lacked the information and analysis necessary to agree parameters with the local authority and inform the subsequent design."

And went on: "There is nothing in the material provided which refers to the particular character of Llandudno. Any references to large global leisure complexes are negative in this sensitive context." However it says the panel was not opposed to hotel development on the site but says it had concerns about the concept presented to them.

"There was nothing in the images presented to suggest that this development is located in Llandudno. It is in fact more suggestive of an international hotel anywhere which is not appropriate ion this context," it added. And called for a fundamental reappraisal of the plans before they were re-submitted to it.

But Llandudno’s mayor Greg Robbins said he hoped the developers hadn’t been deterred by the setback.
"This site has been an eyesore for far too long, and I welcome any plans to develop it provided they are sensitively designed to blend in with the conservation area. "After 17 years it is long past the time when this site should have been developed and I think every effort should be made to ensure that people who come up with projects like this are not discouraged. " I call on our Assembly member and MP to intervene and perhaps liaise between the developers and the planners to try to take this project forward."

Aberconwy Assembly member, Janet Finch-Saunders attended the Design Review Panel meeting in her capacity as a Conwy county councillor and said the developers appeared visibly disappointed when told to go back to the drawing board.
She commented: "My late mother was the mayor of Llandudno at the time of the fire which destroyed the Pier Pavilion and I would never have thought that 17 years later we would have an empty site that is such an eyesore.

"Having spoken to the landowner’s representative some time ago I know they are very keen themselves to see this area developed, and I would urge Conwy County Borough Council to do their utmost to continue with an open dialogue and discussions in order that this site can be redeveloped for the future prosperity of Llandudno. "I am most keen to work with both parties on this."

Attempts by the Weekly News to contact the developers DP Development or the site’s owners proved unsuccessful.

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/09/15/calls-for-llandudno-s-pier-pavilion-site-to-be-revived-55243-29427846/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/09/15/calls-for-llandudno-s-pier-pavilion-site-to-be-revived-55243-29427846/)

Yep, so keen, they've left it derelict for 17 years.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 15, 2011, 08:23:48 PM
Yes.... I too am keen to see the site revitalised, and developed.

But not at any cost, and not just a bland hotel.  So the developers were visibly disappointed when their proposal got the boot? Well it can't have been good enough, and the town, and that particular iconic part of town deserves something a little special.

My guess is that they spent very little time, money, research or energy on this proposal.
We would surely have heard more about it if they had?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2011, 09:06:15 PM
Indeed. The angle in the Weekly News was that the Design Commission For Wales had somehow blocked this exciting plan to redevelop the Pier Pavilion site, which was very unfair. The design was absolutely hideous according to the Report and would have been an even bigger eyesore than the Pavilion site is now. There was not a a chance in hell that it would have received Planning Permission. One has to wonder if the Developers/Architects have even visited Llandudno before coming up with the design?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 27, 2011, 12:32:34 PM
For sheer hilarity, take a look at the architects impression of a hotel proposed for the Pier Pavilion site:

"This limited architectural competition called for the design of a new 110 bedroom four star Hotel and Leisure facility, complete with car parking  and retail areas for separate letting, on the former site of the Pier  Pavilion in Llandudno. This unique and historic site called for a true landmark building. To this end we propose an unashamedly striking and modern building comprising three principal components; a fully interactive three storey public 'Plinth' above which sits a series of guest 'Pavilions' which respond to the individual aspects of shore, mountain and city and mimic the nature of the Victorian establishments surrounding them. Finally a unique and dynamic 'Shard’ which appears to break out of the hill side behind provides a distinctive long range signature / beacon for the building"

http://www.mcscomputers.net/~kka/katalog/files/KKA_Pier%20Pavilion%20Lladudno.pdf (http://www.mcscomputers.net/~kka/katalog/files/KKA_Pier%20Pavilion%20Lladudno.pdf)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on September 27, 2011, 05:32:17 PM
 might blend in with Venue Cymru
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: snowcap on September 27, 2011, 05:43:24 PM
it would stand out like a sore thumb
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Pendragon on September 27, 2011, 07:21:24 PM
Sore thumb................ _))* more like severed head

Can you imagine......dreadful.  :o
It made me laugh though Dave
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: emma p on September 27, 2011, 09:07:41 PM
Ridiculous  :o  Surely this would never be allowed would it ????
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 27, 2011, 11:17:52 PM
It would also wipe out about 15 of the Pier kiosks.... Hmmm.  ?{}? ?{}?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 30, 2011, 08:23:08 PM
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It would also wipe out about 15 of the Pier kiosks.... Hmmm.  ?{}? ?{}?
The kiosks across the front of the former Pavilion entrance should not be there anyway, there is a restrictive covenant that says access to the pier must be kept clear.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 09, 2012, 11:38:56 PM
The Pier Pavilion site seems to be turning into a landfill site, surely the rubbish can be cleared and the owner billed?

(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i331/penrhynpigeons/DSCN0089.jpg)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on January 09, 2012, 11:48:59 PM
I think it should be purchased on a compulsory basis by CCBC.  They can do it if they put their minds to it.

Failing that, they should clear it every month... to a high standard, and send a punitive bill to Messrs D Taylor of Worcester, who after a short time may feel compelled to sell it!   ;) ;)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 09, 2012, 11:50:24 PM
exactly  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 10, 2012, 08:30:40 AM
They certainly managed to do a Compulsory Purchase on the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay easily enough...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on January 10, 2012, 11:16:24 AM
The Pier Pavilion is my biggest bug-bear.
I have been silent on the subject this year, as our new Mayor, Mr Robbins has it at the top of his priority list to get it done.

The clock is still ticking... and nothing has been seen or heard.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on January 10, 2012, 05:02:17 PM
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The Pier Pavilion is my biggest bug-bear.
I have been silent on the subject this year, as our new Mayor, Mr Robbins has it at the top of his priority list to get it done.

The clock is still ticking... and nothing has been seen or heard.   

Give him a chance - he's got until May!   L0L   Then he hopes that with the new Elections everyone will have forgotten what he said 4 years ago!   I suspect the rest of the Council will think likewise.   :twoface:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: JasonW on January 10, 2012, 07:41:52 PM
At the last meeting of Conwy County's Communities Overview and Scrutiny committee I'm sure the Chairman said there would be a report at the next meeting on the progress made regarding the Pier Pavillion Site.

Next meeting is on 9th Feb and the report title seems to be "To provide an update on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion Site following discussions with the Design Council for Wales"

Keep an eye on the following link. Agenda and reports should be out by the 2nd Feb

http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2758&Ver=4 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2758&Ver=4)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 10, 2012, 09:54:43 PM
Thanks for the update, Jason.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 13, 2012, 12:49:17 PM
Oscar raises the question over on Twitter of how Chester Council can acquire the derelict Odeon cinema in their city centre for redevelopment as an Arts Centre, yet CCBC are apparently unable to do the same for the Pier Pavilion site? The answer, I suspect, comes down to enthusiasm for getting the job done.

Chester Council's slogan - 'Investing in the City'

CCBC's slogan - 'Doing b****r all since 1996'

Photo courtesy of Oscar:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 23, 2012, 08:17:53 PM
I have split the Pier Pavilion topic out of the 'Local Eyesores' section, as it is such a long running issue for the town. Hopefully, Mayor Robbins will shortly be unveiling his master plan for the redevelopment of the site....  :roll:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 23, 2012, 08:27:24 PM
We may be in for a long wait!  $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on January 23, 2012, 08:42:22 PM
Lets be honest with the way the economy is now we have no chance,the owner only wants flats and with CCBC not prepared to seize the land we will be stuck with this whole for a long time.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 23, 2012, 08:48:23 PM
Surely at the very least the council could enforce a big tidy up, even if they do it and send him the bill?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on January 23, 2012, 09:14:49 PM
Well its been 15 years and they still ain;t managed it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on January 23, 2012, 09:21:43 PM
Wrex, I hate to break it to you, but 2012 actually marks the EIGHTEENTH YEAR since the terrible arson attack robbed the resort of The Pavilion.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 23, 2012, 09:27:30 PM
February 13th 1994 at 5.30pm.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: martin on January 24, 2012, 03:02:16 PM
I have just read all 5 pages, I was feeling happy when I started, (no jokes about the seven dwarfs please), but now, dear me, what a mess, I expect we will still be posting on this topic when we have reached 50 or 60 pages.  If all of the consolidated brains found on this forum have not been able to crack it, there is no hope for a solution ever being found.  I reckon all of this discussion will be pointless when, in the not to distant future, the pier as a whole disappears beneath the waves for lack of maintenance. :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on February 08, 2012, 04:55:09 PM
Just to let you know the self seeded Sycamore trees that have been growing along the fence of the site have all been removed. I was told this was because there roots were interfering with the electrical main. Once the fence painting is completed it should look a lot better.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 08, 2012, 06:32:45 PM
The fence painting that has been half finished for the last year?

Did you notice that another of the trees planted in the lawn by the pier entrance has disappeared?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 08, 2012, 06:59:37 PM
We went on the bus ride around the Marine Drive on Sunday, we were told that the fire was started by tramps to keep warm, how true that is I have no idea!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bri Roberts on February 08, 2012, 07:03:24 PM
If it was John who said that then I would believe him.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: JasonW on February 08, 2012, 10:10:19 PM
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At the last meeting of Conwy County's Communities Overview and Scrutiny committee I'm sure the Chairman said there would be a report at the next meeting on the progress made regarding the Pier Pavillion Site.

Next meeting is on 9th Feb and the report title seems to be "To provide an update on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion Site following discussions with the Design Council for Wales"

Keep an eye on the following link. Agenda and reports should be out by the 2nd Feb

http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2758&Ver=4 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=2758&Ver=4)

The Pier Pavilion Site is not on the agenda for the 9th Feb. In the forward work programme it now says the report will go to Communities on the 16th Feb at 5pm.
I have asked the Scrutiny Chariman for confirmation.
But the link for the report should appear on the link below in the next day or so:
http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=3100&Ver=4
 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=3100&Ver=4)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 08, 2012, 10:17:58 PM
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We went on the bus ride around the Marine Drive on Sunday, we were told that the fire was started by tramps to keep warm, how true that is I have no idea!
The press articles I have state that 3 youths were seen running away just before the fire was discovered.  Kids were breaking into the Pavilion (not difficult as no effort was made to secure the building) on a regular basis at that time and starting fires in the basement.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 08, 2012, 10:37:06 PM
Apprentice tramps?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: JasonW on February 09, 2012, 07:24:33 PM


The Pier Pavilion Site is not on the agenda for the 9th Feb. In the forward work programme it now says the report will go to Communities on the 16th Feb at 5pm.
I have asked the Scrutiny Chariman for confirmation.
But the link for the report should appear on the link below in the next day or so:
http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=3100&Ver=4
 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=452&MId=3100&Ver=4)
[/quote]

Report is now on the website and will be discussed at the committee on the 16th Feb.

The report will highlight the actions being done by officers and consultation with various organisations. The aim to gove a brief for the architects to encourage them to develop a suitable design for the area.

I understand that the last submisssion by the architects in March'11, was not acceptable and would have produced a modern structure that would have been massive compared to the Grand Hotel.

The next step suggested is for the Architect to consider the guideance and submit an alternative design.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 09, 2012, 07:43:39 PM
Thank you, Jason.

It's obvious that the current architects have little interest in following the Design Brief. The Owners of the site want a 200 bedroom hotel, whilst the Brief states that the site could only accommodate a 50 bedroom hotel if sympathetically designed. In my view, the Architect is completely unsuited to such a project and a more conservation minded Architect (such as Donald Anstell & Associates) needs to be appointed instead for this scheme to ever have any chance of progressing to the Planning Permission stage.

I'm reassured that the comprehensive design brief means that an inappropriate design will never be allowed. Also, in the unlikely event of the council approving an inappropriate design, the decision would immediately be called in by CADW/WG to prevent it ever being built.

I'm also pleased to see that one of my long standing ideas has been mentioned, namely the idea of redeveloping the entire landward end of the Pier to clear the area of the various tatty buildings and arcade, in essence recreating the original spacious layout of the Pier Entrance when the Pavilion was built. This would obviously need to be a joint venture between the Pavilion site's owner and Six Piers Ltd, which is an optimistic idea, to say the least!

As the Report says:

"There is a risk that the current architect currently engaged by the owner will persist with his current inappropriate concept design and that further unsuitable development proposals may continue to be submitted. Cadw have cautioned against settling for inappropriate schemes for this site. An unsuitable development, once constructed will impact on the area and wider town for years to come. Cadw advised that the site should demand a development solution of extreme sensitivity and high quality."

Indeed....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 10, 2012, 10:30:11 PM
The Pavilion's Development Brief is well worth a read:
http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=30773 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=30773)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bri Roberts on February 11, 2012, 09:14:21 AM
I wonder if CCBC mean the BREEAM standard?

i.e. British Research Establishment Environmental Assessment Method.      $smack$
The new development design will need to incorporate sustainable
principles. The BREAM standard will need to be achieved. A low to
zero carbon feasibility study should be prepared for the development
and the final design should adopt the recommendations of such a
study.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on February 12, 2012, 09:24:19 AM
Walked past the site yesterday and could not believe the mess,how on earth does the manager of the Grand allow CCBC tocharge rates with that eyesore next door,mind you most of the rubbish is in the hotel yard and it looks like the rubbish on the pier pavilion site has been thrown there from the Grand.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 12, 2012, 09:51:30 AM
As I said some time ago it's becoming a landfill site! $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on February 12, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
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Walked past the site yesterday and could not believe the mess,how on earth does the manager of the Grand allow CCBC tocharge rates with that eyesore next door,mind you most of the rubbish is in the hotel yard and it looks like the rubbish on the pier pavilion site has been thrown there from the Grand.
I did the same earlier in the week and noticed a pile of old beds and chairs by the Grand-- hardly lives up to it's name does it?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: hollins on February 12, 2012, 12:08:00 PM
It is so sad especially when the book I am reading at the moment says,
"In 1909 the Grand Hotel was built and was the largest hotel in Wales; it forms a final flourish to the holiday resort. In 1939 it was still rated as one of the best hotels outside London."
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 12, 2012, 12:36:10 PM
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Walked past the site yesterday and could not believe the mess,how on earth does the manager of the Grand allow CCBC tocharge rates with that eyesore next door,mind you most of the rubbish is in the hotel yard and it looks like the rubbish on the pier pavilion site has been thrown there from the Grand.
So I see....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on February 12, 2012, 01:55:18 PM
The manager of the Grand should get himsalf and a few staff in there and have some pride in the hotel.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on February 12, 2012, 02:08:56 PM
OMG wouldn't set foot in there without something large to bash the rats with! EEEEEEK :o
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on February 13, 2012, 04:51:57 PM
I spent from the 4th October 2004 until 17th February 2006 trying to get the rubbish dumped by the Pier and Grand Hotel cleared out from the site. It was finally done with the assistance of Betty Williams (MP Retd.) and an anonymous benefactor who provided me with a copy of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Part VIII - special controls. Chapter II which deals with Land adversely affecting amenity of neighbourhood (read the four pages from para 215 onwards.)
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/Ukpga_19900008_en_12.htm (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1990/Ukpga_19900008_en_12.htm)
This finally forced Conwy Council to clean up the mess and back charge its cost to Mr. David Taylor of Warwickshire Property Services, 11 Castle Street Worcester WR1 3AD.
As to the speculation about what caused the fire, it's worth pointing out what the Fire Officer who was responsible for the aftermath investigation told me, there were 22 separate seats to the fires which destroyed the Pier Pavilion and in his opinion even had they been called out before the fire took hold each individual fire would have been capable of destroying the whole building. Tramps, Youths running away, NO I DON’T THINK SO. Try ARSONISTS and ask who stood to benefit from the destruction of the Pavilion.
I shouldn’t have bothered wasting my time as the Pier and the Grand are still the biggest polluters and dumpers of rubbish within the site, which is as bad today as it was back in 2004. :(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on February 13, 2012, 09:55:02 PM
Wrex, the Manager of The Grand is not a HIMSELF, its a HERSELF.  Anna Hamblett of Britannia Hotels.

She can be contacted directly on anna.hamblett@britanniahotels.com

Don't be hopeful of any response though, she is apparently very busy being rude to elderly guests and spends a great deal of her time snuffing out ideas and improvement proposals that come her way.

All of those crates and catering / packaging waste articles can easily be traced back to The Grand.
The Pier Company, (despite its other faults) have a very meticulous waste disposal regime and are not to blame for what you see in those pictures.

The Grand Hotel itself is becoming very tired looking and progressively externally decrepit.
If I had my way, any new development on that site would sweep The Grand away, and stop treating it as a sacred cow.
Lets face it, the owners (Britannia Hotels) care very little about it.
You don't have to take a close look to see how badly maintained it now is.

The entire Pavilion/Grand site could be redeveloped into a fantastic and enormous attraction, sympathetic to the resort's Victorian heritage.  Something new,  that would draw visitors in their thousands from all around Wales and England.
But it will never happen.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on February 14, 2012, 09:26:49 AM
An application to CCBC Environmental dept would make their officers have to go to the Grand and give them the hard word. They give a time when everything has to be cleared by.It could be worth a try before the season starts. The word 'rat' often brings a rapid response-- although in this case 'rats' might be more appropriate !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on February 15, 2012, 01:50:43 PM
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All of those crates and catering / packaging waste articles can easily be traced back to The Grand.
The Pier Company, (despite its other faults) have a very meticulous waste disposal regime and are not to blame for what you see in those pictures.
You are so right Fester about the rubbish in the photograph, but you have failed to notice all the other rubbish which has been steadily growing behind the fence where the Pier Company meticulous deal with their waste disposal. I stand by what I said, BOTH the Grand Hotel and Pier Company are in the main responsible for the rubbish pollution in the Pier Pavilion Site
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on February 15, 2012, 06:25:24 PM
 More like some less than conscientious staff.   >>>
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dwsi on February 26, 2012, 02:26:16 PM
There will be aprogress update on the development of Pier Pavilion Site in the cabinet meeting on Tuesday 28th

No 9b http://bit.ly/yDehNM (http://bit.ly/yDehNM)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on February 26, 2012, 09:30:36 PM
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There will be aprogress update on the development of Pier Pavilion Site in the cabinet meeting on Tuesday 28th

No 9b http://bit.ly/yDehNM (http://bit.ly/yDehNM)

Should I hold my breath I wonder?  ?{}?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on February 26, 2012, 09:39:30 PM
No. It's just the Cabinet considering the same reports that we talked about on here a week or two back. The developer's architect is basically ignoring all the advice being given to him by CCBC, thus there can be no progress.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, a Compulsory Purchase Order is the only way to break the deadlock.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on March 06, 2012, 08:15:32 PM
The trouble with going down the Compulsory Purchase Order route is the council would then have to find the money to rebuild the Pier Pavilion as was. So at vast expense to all local rate payers we would end up with a brand new totally redundant building. The Council can't in law just sell it on to another developer as that would amount to land theft and our Courts take a very dim view of that sort of behaviour
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on March 06, 2012, 08:53:02 PM
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The trouble with going down the Compulsory Purchase Order route is the council would then have to find the money to rebuild the Pier Pavilion as was. So at vast expense to all local rate payers we would end up with a brand new totally redundant building. The Council can't in law just sell it on to another developer as that would amount to land theft and our Courts take a very dim view of that sort of behaviour
That's really not the case - somebody is misleading you here!

CPOs are used on a regular basis by Councils in conjunction with developers in order to tackle problem areas. There is no requirement to rebuild whatever structure was previously on the site - that would be ludicrous! Conwy Council has just used a CPO to buy the fire damaged Market Hall complex in Colwyn Bay - this will be demolished and sold to developers for office/retail use development:

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/02/23/colwyn-bay-market-hall-plans-55243-30385251/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/02/23/colwyn-bay-market-hall-plans-55243-30385251/)

How is that scheme any different to the Pier Pavilion site?

"Compulsory purchases as part of property development. Sometimes, a local authority agrees to make a Compulsory Purchase Order on a property so that a development by another party - typically a property developer - can proceed. The owner of the property sells it to the local authority and the local authority then sells it to the property developer."

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1082356263&type=RESOURCES (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1082356263&type=RESOURCES)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on March 07, 2012, 02:01:42 PM
Walked past this am. two men cutting down bushes on the perimeter-- and throwing all the branches and trimmings over the fence--- more rubbish !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Mikethewatch on March 07, 2012, 02:37:47 PM
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The trouble with going down the Compulsory Purchase Order route is the council would then have to find the money to rebuild the Pier Pavilion as was. So at vast expense to all local rate payers we would end up with a brand new totally redundant building. The Council can't in law just sell it on to another developer as that would amount to land theft and our Courts take a very dim view of that sort of behaviour
That's really not the case - somebody is misleading you here!

CPOs are used on a regular basis by Councils in conjunction with developers in order to tackle problem areas. There is no requirement to rebuild whatever structure was previously on the site - that would be ludicrous! Conwy Council has just used a CPO to buy the fire damaged Market Hall complex in Colwyn Bay - this will be demolished and sold to developers for office/retail use development:

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/02/23/colwyn-bay-market-hall-plans-55243-30385251/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/02/23/colwyn-bay-market-hall-plans-55243-30385251/)

How is that scheme any different to the Pier Pavilion site?

"Compulsory purchases as part of property development. Sometimes, a local authority agrees to make a Compulsory Purchase Order on a property so that a development by another party - typically a property developer - can proceed. The owner of the property sells it to the local authority and the local authority then sells it to the property developer."

Might it have something to do with it being a listed building, just a thought !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on March 07, 2012, 05:41:18 PM
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Might it have something to do with it being a listed building, just a thought !

It would complicate matters slightly, but it's been done before many times. By their nature, Listed Buildings often suffer problems and require a CPO to sort them out.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on March 07, 2012, 10:49:07 PM
Strange how it is a listed building........ seeing as there has BEEN NO building for the last 18 years!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on March 13, 2012, 04:51:06 PM
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Walked past this am. two men cutting down bushes on the perimeter-- and throwing all the branches and trimmings over the fence--- more rubbish !

If the 2 men who were privately funded had taken the cuttings away at the end of the job it would have been possable to accuse them of theft. By leaving the cuttings which are the property of Warwickshire Property Services Ltd. on site, no theft has occurred and we have one neatly trimmed hedge. Shame on Conwy Council for not cutting it themselves and back charging the site owners
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on March 13, 2012, 05:09:17 PM
That's an interesting legal point. Being pedantic, I know...but can someone who is not the owner carry out work on a property? I imagine CCBC would be able to do it as the owner of the public land bordering the Pavilion but someone else...?  :roll:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2012, 12:03:10 AM
I was involved in a darts match in the RAOB club on Madoc St tonight... and our noble Lord Mayor, Mr Robbins happened to wander in.

I thought, what a great opportunity to ask him for an update on the Pier Pavilion site, which after all, was promised as the pinnacle of his greatness, and the legacy of his Mayoral reign.

But as I excitedly approached him, it suddenly dawned on me that it was a complete waste of my time.  Whats the point?

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on March 14, 2012, 09:20:37 PM
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That's an interesting legal point. Being pedantic, I know...but can someone who is not the owner carry out work on a property? I imagine CCBC would be able to do it as the owner of the public land bordering the Pavilion but someone else...?  :roll:
Yes Dave Conwy do have the power under the Town and Country Planning Act but choose not to use it. In consequence we on the top half of North Parade have to live with the result of their dereliction of duty or ...! $walesflag$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on March 16, 2012, 05:07:22 PM
CCBC have used their Compulsory Purchase powers to buy the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay and will sell it on to a Private Developer. No reason why they can't do the same with the Pier Pavilion site. Everything I've highlighted in bold applies equally, if not more so, to the Pier Pavilion site....


15/03/12 - Council takes ownership of Market Hall


Conwy County Borough Council is pleased to announce it has taken ownership of the former Market Hall building in Colwyn Bay.

As part of the Bay Life+ regeneration of Colwyn Bay, the Council and Welsh Government have made a number of property purchases that are of strategic significance to the town.

The former Market Hall building and neighbouring properties on Princes Drive are part of that programme.  The site is an integral part of the Masterplan to regenerate the town because it's in an important and prominent location between the Station Square and Penrhyn Road. Ultimately the site will be redeveloped.

Cllr Goronwy Edwards, Conwy's Cabinet Member for Communities said, "This site has been a blight on the town for many years. It's taken many months of legal work and negotiation but today, at last, we've received confirmation that it is finally in the Council's ownership."

Rob Dix, Regeneration Area Programme Manager said, "The Market Hall site is an important site to see redeveloped. Not only does its rundown condition visually detract from the town, but the various ownerships on the site made it very difficult for a private investor to redevelop the site. Today we have managed to bring the whole site into single ownership - making future redevelopment possible."

Conwy County Borough Council will be looking to assist the remaining tenants in their relocation.   The buildings will then be demolished and the site sold for redevelopment in accordance with the development and design briefs agreed by Cabinet.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on May 24, 2012, 11:18:16 AM
All is quiet on the Mr Taylor saga.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 24, 2012, 11:46:43 AM
Just more prevarication from CCBC. A CPO is the only way forward....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on May 24, 2012, 12:05:04 PM
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Just more prevarication from CCBC. A CPO is the only way forward....

It would be better late than never but a CPO should have been done many,many years ago.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: craigollerton on May 24, 2012, 12:17:20 PM
I vividly remember attending a meeting where Rob Dix was present concerning the purchase of the pavilion site which I stated would be in the interests of the townspeople. He asked me where did I think the money would come from, the same coffers the money come from to pay for the swimming pool I told him, next thing he got all irrate and touchy on the subject and pushed back my questioning onto someone else. It's a joke, thats what it is, nothing but an absolute disgrace to this town. No progress will ever be made until that site is brought back into local ownership of the borough council who can then call the shots. The impression I got by the way the rob dix was speaking was that it was a 'sensitive, and delicate' matter, forget sympathy and treading carefully, they need to come down like a tonne of bricks and use some bloody authority to get this sorted once and for all. I've ranted on this one before, it's a joke, joke joke!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on May 24, 2012, 09:49:05 PM
Its been my biggest bug-bear for years...  and a CPO is well overdue.

I am certain that if a local consortium proposed a sensible project on that site, then CCBC could be persuaded to buy it and flip it over to that group.   Very much like the Colwyn Bay Pier situation, but with a much more valuable asset.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on May 31, 2012, 05:10:25 PM
The last price I heard quoted just to buy the site was £5.8 million. Then there is the cost of rebuilding whatever is proposed for the site. Then you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a High Court Case brought by the current owner of the hole against CCBC because he has not been allowed to develop what he wanted on the site. And you wonder why CCBC has not applied for a compulsory purchase order. A lot of the delay was caused by the zoning requirements of the site. In the latest LDP it was re-zoned into the Hotel Habitation Zone, which if approved will clear an awful lot of the restrictions and make redevelopment possible. Then we might get a brand new 5 star Hotel which we don't need (with all windows double glazed of course) to help ensure a whole load of struggling smaller hotels go out of business.  $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 31, 2012, 07:42:33 PM
The price for a CPO is dependent on the market value of the site based on its current zoning. CPOs happen on a regular basis all round the country, the Pier Pavilion site need be no different.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on June 01, 2012, 12:00:13 AM
BlongB, rest assured, a hotel development is not what is required on that site.

Instead, a purpose built indoor leisure facility, a multi-purpose all weather attraction is a must.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on June 01, 2012, 01:56:52 AM
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BlongB, rest assured, a hotel development is not what is required on that site.

Instead, a purpose built indoor leisure facility, a multi-purpose all weather attraction is a must.

I wish I was as sure as you are Fester, because if that was the case there would have been no need to re-zone it, in the last LDP, unless of course you get a lot more money for a site that's cleared for Hotel building
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on June 01, 2012, 07:03:34 AM
Unless CCBC are going to pump millions into that site for an indoor center like they have in Colwyn Bay(money)there is no chance of anybody else pumping money into an indoor center.Can anybody confirm that the station project has been held up again.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on June 22, 2012, 09:10:52 AM
what are your top ten
1 Pier Pavillion
2 Railway Station
3 Clarence Hotel
4 Tudno Castle Hotel
5 Augusta Holiday Apartments
6 Town Beach( weeds,stones,shells,litter)
7 West Shore promenade(totally neglected)
8 Parc Llandudno;s hoardings
9 West Shore cycle path(under sand,invisible)
10 Llandudno pier(in a very sorry state)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: TELL on June 22, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
I agree with your list apart from the pier. It seems fine to me, they certainly spend a lot of money on maintenance. I wish the landing stage could be renovated though.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 22, 2012, 03:15:19 PM
Sadly the pier does look very tatty, rotting wood, kiosks with rusty missing ironwork, I'm sure it's fine structurally but cosmetically it is an eyesore, such a shame!  :(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on June 22, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
What about the Penmorfa building site?    That used to be pointed out on the tourist buses but they can't any longer and neither can they stop for the White Rabbit Statue as that's gone for the moment.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: TELL on June 22, 2012, 04:21:43 PM
This weather must be giving you lot the miseries. Please cheer up, you are depressing me.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 22, 2012, 04:58:41 PM
The pier in the sun is even worse! You can see even more decay!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on June 22, 2012, 06:09:52 PM
Tell don;t get depressed,if we don;t try and bring these eyesores to the attention of everybody they will be left for ever,we all know what it used to be like and this is why we are concerned,but it is only because we love the place that we bring it up,not because we enjoy a winge just because we would like to see some concern and commitment from the powers that be.Sitting in the council chamber and pretending to be concerned is not good enough,action for once would be good,if the town council had got of their backside and helped Mr Gorka with the simple task of doing up the tram shelter instead of doing and saying nothing we may have got rid of just one eyesore.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: TELL on June 22, 2012, 09:11:17 PM
Fair enough Rex, if it's therapeutic, carry on.
Although my home is here, I am away working much of the year.
When I get home I am always surprised that Llandudno is as beautiful as I remember it.
(although I would prefer a lot less rain and a lot more sun).
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: TELL on June 22, 2012, 09:16:52 PM
Very sorry, Wrex (I thought that you were royalty)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on June 23, 2012, 08:35:28 AM
No Tell, im not on the Council anymore
 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 20, 2012, 02:00:56 PM
CCBC update on the Pier Pavilion site:

1) The Owner is unwilling to modify his designs for a large glass 300 bedroom hotel on the site and wishes CCBC to consider it. The Owner has ignored requests by CCBC to consider the Planning Brief that has been drawn up for the site. It's fairly apparent, therefore, that any application has no chance of being approved. Back to square one, then!

2) "An alternative scheme for the site has been advanced by a local group.   This scheme would depend on substantial grant funding and proposes to create a Victorian Experience Centre, with an educational facility.  This  plan would aim to recreate the former pier pavilion as a replica.  Some  months ago the group made contact with the owner who confirmed that he
would be prepared in principle to sell the site at  the market value.
No further action has been taken by the Group. The local group have suffered a setback in momentum due to the death of a prominent group member.  The scheme advanced is still at a very early stage.  No funding has not been sourced and considered in detail and the preparation of a business plan has not been commenced.  The scheme cannot be given any weight at present as it still remains an aspiration rather than a worked up scheme."

Why is this scheme by a local group 'shrouded in mystery'? How can it have any chance of success when the local community is not involved?  &shake&


Full report: http://goo.gl/7qQbD (http://goo.gl/7qQbD)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 21, 2012, 12:55:14 AM
I like the idea, but it seems like nothing is REALLY going on.

Now, the site once developed really MUST comprise a vibrant indoor attraction for visitors when the weather is not ideal.
That is what Llandudno is missing above all else.

Above all, it must create revenue.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on November 21, 2012, 07:39:53 AM
I think we all would love to see something happen,i cant see a group getting enought money to build a victorian center without some flats,hotel above it and its not going to bring people in but i dont know what would besides an ice rink or a fun pool and we all know that aint going to happen.A hotel seems the best option.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on November 21, 2012, 08:57:08 AM
What might work there would be a virtual theme park. Essentially, the exterior façade cuold be identical to the Grand, making a nice architectural statement but the inside would house several floors of virtual rides and games. It would require a fair bit of investment, of course, but so would anything on that site.  The bonus is that the ground floor could be an ice rink.

Several companies (http://www.designboom.com/technology/4d-virtual-reality-theme-park/) have experimented with the concept, and the Walt Disney Company has made it work in Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisneyQuest). I've visited two - and they're extremely immersive. 


Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 21, 2012, 01:25:28 PM
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What might work there would be a virtual theme park. Essentially, the exterior façade cuold be identical to the Grand, making a nice architectural statement but the inside would house several floors of virtual rides and games. It would require a fair bit of investment, of course, but so would anything on that site.  The bonus is that the ground floor could be an ice rink.

Several companies (http://www.designboom.com/technology/4d-virtual-reality-theme-park/) have experimented with the concept, and the Walt Disney Company has made it work in Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisneyQuest). I've visited two - and they're extremely immersive.
I think there's mileage in that idea. Llandudno desperately needs a large all-weather attraction. Another hotel is madness, when you consider how many are closing.

Personally, I think a combined amusement/catering concept like the U.S. Dave & Busters would work well. Could be called Dave & Festers maybe...  :laugh:

http://www.daveandbusters.com/default.aspx (http://www.daveandbusters.com/default.aspx)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_%26_Buster%27s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_%26_Buster%27s)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 21, 2012, 03:04:38 PM
..Just tell me how much you need mate, I'll sign the cheque.

By the way, I have also been to the Disney Quest attraction in Florida, and I have long said that such a facility would be a massive success on the Pavilion site in Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on November 21, 2012, 03:57:43 PM
I don't know why the CCBC can't play the owner of the site at his own game.  He was under insured and has let the site become an eyesore over many years so why should he profit from his neglect.
One Councillor suggested that it be compulsory purchased and just grassed over but people laughed at the idea.. why? 
The CCBC could compulsory purchase it for recreational purpose and create a small park there but in the fullness of time change the status of the land from recreational use to residential or business use.  They should be just as devious as the present owner if they want to make any progress in this case.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 27, 2012, 04:00:49 PM
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The CCBC could compulsory purchase it for recreational purpose and create a small park there but in the fullness of time change the status of the land from recreational use to residential or business use.  They should be just as devious as the present owner if they want to make any progress in this case.

This is already well under way Hugo. In the latest Local Development Plan, the Pavilion Site was rezoned from an Amenities Site to an area of Hotel Habitation. This also prevents the Garden or Theme Park ideas from getting any form of Planning Consent.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on November 28, 2012, 06:58:37 PM
That doesn't make any sense to me Blongb, it's as if the CCBC are playing into the hands of the owner and making it easier for his company to develop the site.
He could have done that years ago if he really wanted to develop it so what has changed?
We all want an improvement on the site but not at any cost.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 28, 2012, 08:04:09 PM
When the Pavilion was first destroyed by a deliberate act of Arson the onus was on the owner to rebuild it. Instead he claimed he wasn't covered by Insurance for fire damage so could not meet the cost of rebuilding.

However that didn't stop him from almost immediately submitting plans for an Apartment Block to be built there instead. This of course was turned down flat by the Planners and CADW.  Even under the latest Local Development Plan this is still not possible because as I said earlier the site is now been included in the Hotel Habitation Zone which if my understanding is correct does not permit the building of Apartments
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 28, 2012, 11:09:57 PM
BlongB, does that mean that to develop the site as an entertainment attraction it would require a 'change of use' decree by the County Council planning dept for the entire site?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 29, 2012, 12:00:05 PM
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BlongB, does that mean that to develop the site as an entertainment attraction it would require a 'change of use' decree by the County Council planning dept for the entire site?
Whatever goes on the site would require a full Planning Application, whether it be a hotel, entertainment centre etc.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 29, 2012, 12:27:06 PM
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BlongB, does that mean that to develop the site as an entertainment attraction it would require a 'change of use' decree by the County Council planning dept for the entire site?
Whatever goes on the site would require a full Planning Application, whether it be a hotel, entertainment centre etc.

It means according to the latest Local Development Plan without Re-zoning the site can now only be used to build a Hotel
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 29, 2012, 12:31:50 PM
No, not at all. You can submit a Planning Application for anything on that site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 29, 2012, 12:33:58 PM
Good to see Cllr Cater taking a proactive stance on the issue.  ;)

Hopes raised for future of Llandudno Pier Pavilion
Nov 29 2012

HOPES have been raised that a Victorian pavilion which has been derelict for 20 years could rise from the ashes of the fire which devastated it.

Llandudno’s Pier Pavilion is a blot on the landscape of the resort, and councillors and conservationists have been hoping for years that the owner, a Midlands based businessman, would come up with a viable scheme to redevelop it.
Last year he prepared plans for a hotel, but didn’t apply for planning permission after council officers advised it wasn’t in keeping with the Grade II listed pier.

But at a meeting last week councillors heard that if he couldn’t come up with a suitable proposition by the end of 2012, the council could look at drawing up its own plans and the possibility of seeking a compulsory purchase order.

Cllr Chris Cater said: “It is incredible that we have not had one single planning application for this derelict site since the fire.
“The county council has formulated a conservation and development brief to help the owner’s architect. We all know an inappropriate design could be something Llandudno would regret for a long time, so I support the conservation officer’s insistence on a high quality structure that would enhance North Shore and the conservation area.
“A compulsory purchase order must not be ruled out as a potential measure we could take.”


The site of the ornate building, which was a theatre and conference centre before the blaze in 1994, is now covered in undergrowth, and hoteliers whose properties overlook it say it ruins the view of the bay.

Conservationist John Lawson-Reay of the Llandudno Seaside Buildings Preservation Trust welcomed the news the county council was working with the owner to try to come to a suitable compromise.

“It is very good news that at last there seems to be some progress. I was recently at a meeting of the Llandudno Conservation Area Advisory Committee, where the council’s conservation officer told us the owner had come up with an idea for a hotel which didn’t satisfy the conservation area requirements.

“But the conservation officer is being very proactive in trying to get a resolution for the site and I got the impression the parties are very close to coming to some sort of an agreement.

“At last the council is taking a positive stance on a situation which has been stagnant for so many years. They haven’t mentioned the words ‘compulsory purchase order’ before and that is to be welcomed.

“Increasingly the land is becoming an unsightly eyesore and provided a project can be put together which is in keeping with the pier’s Grade II listing we would welcome its development.”

At last week’s meeting of the county’s overview and scrutiny committee, conservation officer Peter Jones-Hughes said it was believed the land owner was revising plans for the hotel scheme and would re-present them.

He explained compulsory purchase was an option which could be considered, but would be complicated and could leave the council with a big bill.

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/11/29/hopes-raised-for-future-of-llandudno-pier-pavilion-55243-32330394/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/11/29/hopes-raised-for-future-of-llandudno-pier-pavilion-55243-32330394/)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 29, 2012, 12:45:28 PM
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No, not at all. You can submit a Planning Application for anything on that site.
You’re quite right Dave you can submit a planning application for anything on the site but it will get rejected out of hand at the preliminary stage of the planning application because it doesn’t meet the requirements of the L D P. That’s what happened to all the previous enquiries that were proposed when the site was zoned for utilitarian use
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 29, 2012, 01:01:58 PM
If that was the case, the local Group that has been preparing plans for an Entertainment Centre would have been wasting their time, surely?

If a realistic plan is put forward for rebuilding of the Pavilion, there is no way it will be refused.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 29, 2012, 01:08:16 PM
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The site of the ornate building, which was a theatre and conference centre before the blaze in 1994, is now covered in undergrowth, and hoteliers whose properties overlook it say it ruins the view of the bay.

At last week’s meeting of the county’s overview and scrutiny committee, conservation officer Peter Jones-Hughes said it was believed the land owner was revising plans for the hotel scheme and would re-present them.

He explained compulsory purchase was an option which could be considered, but would be complicated and could leave the council with a big bill.

I disagree: The only thing I’ve complained about is the rubbish the Pier and Grand Hotel has dumped in the site and the lack of maintenance of the fences and hedges. Without the Pavilion the View of the Bay is Fantastic

The last thing we need is another Hotel being built in Llandudno. At the last count there were over 60 Hotels / B & B’s or Guest Houses currently up for sale in a town that has at least half of all Welsh Bedstock

He’s got the compulsory purchase right it’s a minefield. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 29, 2012, 01:12:59 PM
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If that was the case, the local Group that has been preparing plans for an Entertainment Centre would have been wasting their time, surely?

If a realistic plan is put forward for rebuilding of the Pavilion, there is no way it will be refused.

Now it's been rezoned yes they can refuse it. Thats why I put in an objection to the change of use when it was proposed in the latest LDP
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Paulakelsall on November 29, 2012, 10:29:31 PM
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BlongB, does that mean that to develop the site as an entertainment attraction it would require a 'change of use' decree by the County Council planning dept for the entire site?
Whatever goes on the site would require a full Planning Application, whether it be a hotel, entertainment centre etc.

It means according to the latest Local Development Plan without Re-zoning the site can now only be used to build a Hotel

Is this because of abandoned use or else the site would have an existing use class?

Just for interest, I understand the pavilion site was looked at for a bowling alley with apartments above, prior to to it burning down and before the superbowl came to fruition on Mostyn Champneys.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 30, 2012, 10:12:55 AM
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BlongB, does that mean that to develop the site as an entertainment attraction it would require a 'change of use' decree by the County Council planning dept for the entire site?
Whatever goes on the site would require a full Planning Application, whether it be a hotel, entertainment centre etc.

It means according to the latest Local Development Plan without Re-zoning the site can now only be used to build a Hotel

Is this because of abandoned use or else the site would have an existing use class?

Just for interest, I understand the pavilion site was looked at for a bowling alley with apartments above, prior to to it burning down and before the superbowl came to fruition on Mostyn Champneys.
I think I still have the press clippings for the bowling alley idea. I understand that would have involved the conversion of the Pavilion building, as I recall?

Going back to the original point, looking at this LDP document:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.conwy.gov.uk%2Fupload%2Fpublic%2Fattachments%2F448%2FBP21_Site_Deliverability_Assessment.pdf&ei=N4a4UN-uO4T0sgatkYCAAQ&usg=AFQjCNEftUD-e1fieljNIypyrVVX_Fjz5g&sig2=uTZAdngRK_bg4Ksy4IWpeg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.conwy.gov.uk%2Fupload%2Fpublic%2Fattachments%2F448%2FBP21_Site_Deliverability_Assessment.pdf&ei=N4a4UN-uO4T0sgatkYCAAQ&usg=AFQjCNEftUD-e1fieljNIypyrVVX_Fjz5g&sig2=uTZAdngRK_bg4Ksy4IWpeg)
it says....

5.5 CR4 / MS11 - Pier Pavilion, Llandudno
5.5.1 The pier pavilion site on Llandudno promenade has been proposed for tourism
and/or leisure uses. Being on the promenade in a central location and within
the boundaries of the Llandudno Conservation Area, a sensitive design
approach would be required for any proposal. The Council supports the use of
this site for tourism/leisure uses and discussions are ongoing with the owners
with a view to developing in the early to medium Plan phases.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 30, 2012, 07:23:57 PM
Yes Dave I've read section 5.5 which states one thing, but does that conflict with the requirements of the Hotel Habitation Zoning
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: dingo20 on May 24, 2013, 11:03:34 AM
Why don't they level out the site and stick an open air market on it while they decide what to do with it? We could do with a good fruit and veg stall
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on May 25, 2013, 04:58:48 PM
What an excellent idea.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 25, 2013, 10:32:45 AM
The Pavilion issue will next be discussed on the Thursday, 24 October 2013 by the Communities Overview
and Scrutiny Committee:

'To provide an update on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion Site following discussions with the Design Council for Wales.'

Something to look forward to, eh?  ;D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on July 25, 2013, 12:22:25 PM
Dave are you sure it is 2013 and not 2014. L0L
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on July 25, 2013, 01:40:09 PM
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The Pavilion issue will next be discussed on the Thursday, 24 October 2013 by the Communities Overview
and Scrutiny Committee:

'To provide an update on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion Site following discussions with the Design Council for Wales.'

Something to look forward to, eh?  ;D


Please don’t hold your breath Dave; surely you understand how Welsh Politics work by now.

If you don’t want to make a controversial decision, form a committee to look at the problem.

Then they can run into a problem they don’t want to solve, so you have to form a subcommittee.

They will report back to the main committee with the need to bring in a firm of outside consultants, etc. etc.

It’s a game and it goes on for years, costs us the ratepayers a colossal amount of money and nothing gets done.

Or an I just an old sceptic?    :rage:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on July 26, 2013, 12:01:23 AM
Don't forget the feasibility studies, the steering groups and the liaison committees, all of which will require a rigorous auditing process, feedback sessions and process-mapping reviews at key stages.

I've been involved in all those crappy things, and many more.... in my past life.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on July 26, 2013, 06:41:23 AM
Quote
They will report back to the main committee with the need to bring in a firm of outside consultants, etc. etc.  It’s a game and it goes on for years, costs us the ratepayers a colossal amount of money and nothing gets done.
Or an I just an old sceptic?

No, I've seen that happen many times. Wonder if elected Mayors do things faster?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on July 26, 2013, 08:22:35 AM
Don't forget the favorite one
"A Task and Finish Group"
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Jonty Hammers on July 26, 2013, 11:12:37 AM
The glacial pace of examining these big issues can be frustrating. I wouldn't mind if it was a case of time being taken to cross the Ts and dot the Is etc, and making sure that everything was in order before things got started, but annoyingly that rarely seems to be the case.

Committees; sub-committees; task and finish groups; consultants; consultations; handling by legal and regulatory departments; referrals back up the chain; councils; cabinets; town councils etc. ought to ensure that if something takes years and years to sort out, then it really ought to be proper, full-on, sorted out. No hiccups. No delays.

In the instance of the Pier pavilion site, there's obviously some sort of legal wrangle of which we're not aware (or at least of which I'm not aware) regarding the land involved. Otherwise, they'd have served the chap who owned it with a compulsory purchase order a long while back, and then we wouldn't be in this mess. He seems to be holding off for a good asking price and won't do anything with the land until he gets said price and knows the ball's in his court, so he can afford to hold off. And consider the restrictions that would be placed on such a development given the fact it's in the conservation area.

Failing that, the council might simply not want to commit any cash into buying it. Again, for reasons unknown. Maybe there's some sort of sticking point which would mean they couldn't sell it on to a developer.

Then again, they spent a fair whack on Porth Eirias, and while I don't consider it to be the architectural monstrosity others deem it to be, it seems to make little sense to invest so much cash into a potential attraction, only to not have the larger part of the tenders sorted out by opening time. If they have the money to build such a large installation and then not have facilities inside to ensure that it's generating revenue, then they must have some money to spend on the pier pavilion.

I know Llandudno is never going back to that old heyday of the classic British seaside town with numerous attractions and venues for entertainment. And even if the old theater hadn't burnt down, we'd probably all be here urging people to do something with the building, rather than an empty patch of land. Times have changed and tastes have changed with them, and Llandudno's ethos as a tourist town will have to change too.

But it seems a shame to let a site as potentially useful as the Pier Pavilion place linger and fall victim to weeds and dilapidation. I mean, from the moment you come over Penrhyn Hill in to Llandudno, that end of the town is the most obvious draw to tourists (notwithstanding all the attractions of shopping in town nor the natural beauty and long sandy beaches of the West Shore, of course). The prom leads to it; the Great Orme overshadows it, and the pier is the slap-bang eyecatcher - it blends all the best things that the North Shore has to offer.

This is why people are infuriated with the speed it's taking and especially with the fact that we never seem to hear anything about it. Don't get me wrong - I love the forum and everything it has to offer, but we often have to rely on snatches of conversations with councillors, managers, officers, owners, legislators or similar "Big-Hitters"; and chaps like DaveR have to go digging. Or we all have to resort to speculation if anyone who even looks a bit like a developer, or someone with a hard hat, is seen stood around the site.

The thing is - this is important! Members of the public shouldn't have to go digging around with this. Nor should we have to rely on speculation. There should be reasonably frequent updates from the council or groups such as Mostyn Estates on what's going on.

Under such a system, if there were no updates, we would be able to pretty darn accurately presume that nothing's going on, and demand that someone else be brought in to take a look at it. A damned site better than the "wheels within wheels, legal wrangles, behind the scenes, cloak and dagger, ooh we can't quite move on it yet, we're in talks with the owner" stuff with which we currently have to deal.

If there's nothing that can be done with it, surely the council should come out and tell us as such? If they've exhausted all the options - fine! We would of course be disappointed, but we could then at least say "Hell, poor buggers tried their best - can't knock them for at least trying.", and then we'd be able to move on to something else, or have the authority focus its resources on another important project.

And what's even more infuriating is the fact that this could be said about practically any other one of the developments or eyesore sites around town.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 26, 2013, 12:07:19 PM
Great post, Jonty, I salute you!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tosh on July 26, 2013, 12:23:51 PM
Well said Jonty, I couldn't have put it better myself.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 26, 2013, 12:55:20 PM
Yes very good!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on July 26, 2013, 12:59:31 PM
You really hammered it home Jonty!   :D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Jonty Hammers on July 26, 2013, 01:59:51 PM
Thanks folks. Didn't want to descend into a colour-by-numbers "Ooh, aren't the council awful!" rant, as there's plenty of those and we have Oscar to drive home the criticism when it's needed (or in some cases, when it's not!).

Truth be told, I imagine that the job of the council - both members and officers alike - must be a bloody difficult one, and likely only to earn public ire (hasten to add I'm neither of those things myself, but would like to reserve my anonymity just in case) if anything even goes slightly wrong.

I've met people who work for the council and they're not the scummy, corrupt, cash-hoarding, "no work for me, thanks - I'm in the public sector!" types they're frequently made out to be. They're drawn from a wide range of backgrounds, both public and private alike, and some try the best they can do in difficult circumstances. BUT - that said, they do make some cock-ups, and my main gripe (as spelt out in my above post) is the fact that even with all sorts of checks and balances, scrutiny, expert opinion and avenues of public consultation available to them, they can still make dangerous mistakes.

What equally infuriates me is the usual rhetoric of "COUNCIL = BAD, PRIVATE = GOOD" which is aimed against them, because it tends to spell out a particular kind of pompous, "I'm a self-made man, me!" ideology, and doesn't actually get to the heart of the matter.

I digress. As for for the Pier Pavillion, what it needs is not another theater (we have one big one and if the Broadway thing goes ahead we'll have a smaller independent one) and nor does it need a hotel. We already have a museum (the one on Gloddaeth Ave, while small, does a damnably good job with what space and resources it has).

I may be aiming a bit high, but what it needs is some sort of amusement arcade type doodah. Not quite like those already on the pier. Get some sort of jungle gym for the kids (bit like Geronimo's in Rhyl), but throw in a more modern, more "immersive" style games arcade for older kids and teens. You could even bring back that simulator ride. Sort of like the Trocadero in London, if it still exists, or if anyone's familiar with it. Top it all off with a bar at the top, with a hint of Victorian decor - hell, throw in the Alice in Wonderland connection if you like. And maybe it could even be a nightclub on Friday and Saturday evenings, especially during the summer? It would replace what we've lost with Broadway shutting.

Like the pier, it would be an attraction in its own right. People would come specifically for that. And while it may not suit the elderly day-trippers - with all due love and respect to them (as, let's be fair, they've been keeping the town going for the past thirty odd years) it doesn't have to - they'd still have all the other lovelier, more old-fashioned attractions about the town to keep them going.

All completely Cloud 9, wouldn't it be lovely thinking on my part, but hell - I can dream!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 26, 2013, 06:08:24 PM
I've always said a facsimile (externally) of the Pavilion building, but with a mix of attractions inside, is what's needed on that site. Llandudno has no need of another hotel when so many are for sale or closing. Residential use is not acceptable. The Consultants report on the site that was prepared a few years ago said the same - I've attached a copy below. But, make no mistake, it's not a small project. Construction of the building alone would be around the £6m mark, plus extra for fitting it out.

In our ideal world, moving the arcade that's currently at the pier entrance inside a new building would enable the demolition and tidying up of the pier entrance area to allow the grander (and far wider!) entrance to the pier that originally existed to be reinstated.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on July 26, 2013, 06:09:23 PM
Some of the Plans for the mooted Pavilion replacement building:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on July 26, 2013, 06:33:04 PM
The virtual Theme park idea (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1386.msg53571/topicseen.html#msg53571) was suggested some time ago.  DisneyQuest draws in the locals in big numbers.  But yes;  probably about £10m overall...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on July 27, 2013, 12:02:40 AM
I agree entirely with everything that has been said.

Sadly though, nothing whatsoever seems to be in the pipeline, and there is not even a 'glacial pace' as Jonty so eruditely put it.
It is complete inertia.  If it were not, we would have something to chase up, something to appraise.

But no.
Through complete lack of vision, lack of funds and most upsettingly lack of interest, absolutely nothing is going on.

When did anyone last hear a Councillor or politician speak passionately on the subject?
The previous Mayor, strutting around pretending he was getting something done about the site does not count, and quite frankly made me nauseous.

Back to sleep everyone, there's nothing going on.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on November 22, 2013, 06:48:03 AM
Still asleep.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on November 22, 2013, 08:31:49 AM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sleep018.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sleep027.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on November 22, 2013, 08:34:30 AM
I'm told that 'progress' on the Pier Pavilion issue to due to be reviewed by the relevant Scrutiny Committee shortly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on November 22, 2013, 08:35:45 AM
More tea and biscuits?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on May 29, 2014, 11:48:19 AM
BOO
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 29, 2014, 01:59:04 PM
Ah yes, another year passes and the ruins of the Pier Pavilion slumber on undisturbed.....  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 29, 2014, 02:57:39 PM
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The Pavilion issue will next be discussed on the Thursday, 24 October 2013 by the Communities Overview
and Scrutiny Committee:

'To provide an update on the proposals for the Pier Pavilion Site following discussions with the Design Council for Wales.'

Something to look forward to, eh?  ;D
Just had a look on  the CCBC website.  The discussion on the Pier Pavilion site due on the 24th Oct 2013 was moved to the March 2014 Meeting. The March 2014 Meeting was then cancelled....  Hardly a major priority then! &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on May 29, 2014, 10:38:46 PM
But I thought Mayor Robbins, (as was), promised us it would be sorted out as top priority during his 'reign'? 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2014, 09:43:07 AM
Have you logged the promises made by the new Mayor?   Or has he been very careful to keep his trap firmly shut?    >>>
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on May 30, 2014, 08:51:39 PM
The owner doesn't want to sell it; he wants planning permission to redevelop it. The Council has no money to rebuild the Pavilion if they compulsory purchase it, so we're caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea.

If you think CCBC are in a mess regarding Mr Hunt and the Pier at Colwyn Bay that would pale into insignificance if they made the wrong decision regarding the pit. So they had better form another Sub Committee to look into it and report back when something turns up. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 31, 2014, 09:08:58 AM
CCBC did a Compulsory Purchase on the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, a complicated site with several different owners. The site was acquired, cleared, and has been left for a year or more until a Developer shows interest.

There would be no difference with the Pier Pavilion site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on May 31, 2014, 03:25:25 PM
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CCBC did a Compulsory Purchase on the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, a complicated site with several different owners. The site was acquired, cleared, and has been left for a year or more until a Developer shows interest. There would be no difference with the Pier Pavilion site.

There would be a huge difference as it would amount to land theft; something the Courts take very seriously. Remember Dave, Mr Taylor wants to Develop the site but is being prevented from doing so by CCBC and its planning department. His compensation claim would run into the millions and rightly so.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on June 01, 2014, 12:15:57 AM
Hmmm, BlongB,   no dis-respect, but only someone who does not want to see something developed on that waste ground would think that way.

There can be no benefit for the town as a whole for leaving the Pier Pavilion site in that disgusting state.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on June 01, 2014, 08:40:37 AM
Quote
There would be no difference with the Pier Pavilion site.

I wonder?  In that case I'm not sure if there was any opposition but I suspect there certainly would be with regards to the Pavilion site. And I doubt one can ever be sure how the law will see it if there is. I think the Colwyn Bay experience is a good example of that. On the other hand , leaving the site derelict for so long would surely militate against the current owner in any subsequent legal action. However, the law in the UK is based on land and property ownership, so there has to be a strong case to deprive someone of either. I suspect one aspect would be whether the owner has paid any bils due throughout the period.

All in all it's certainly not a course to undertake lightly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 01, 2014, 09:14:57 AM
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CCBC did a Compulsory Purchase on the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, a complicated site with several different owners. The site was acquired, cleared, and has been left for a year or more until a Developer shows interest. There would be no difference with the Pier Pavilion site.

There would be a huge difference as it would amount to land theft; something the Courts take very seriously. Remember Dave, Mr Taylor wants to Develop the site but is being prevented from doing so by CCBC and its planning department. His compensation claim would run into the millions and rightly so.
He's never submitted a Planning Application in 15+ years, so I doubt that very much. :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 01, 2014, 09:15:44 AM
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Hmmm, BlongB,   no dis-respect, but only someone who does not want to see something developed on that waste ground would think that way.

There can be no benefit for the town as a whole for leaving the Pier Pavilion site in that disgusting state.
Wise words, Mr Fester! 8)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on June 01, 2014, 09:52:44 AM
I remember we've been down this road before, and also that the route to a successful CPO is fraught in the extreme. One thing that does seem important, however, is that in every bit of legislation I've seen there has to be a 'reason'  or 'need' for the land or buildings under scrutiny.

"The first stage is for the acquiring authority to decide that land is required for some particular purpose or scheme and that they are prepared to use compulsory purchase powers to assist in achieving this."

I've attached the 'rulebook' for making a CPO.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 01, 2014, 05:06:29 PM
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I remember we've been down this road before, and also that the route to a successful CPO is fraught in the extreme. One thing that does seem important, however, is that in every bit of legislation I've seen there has to be a 'reason'  or 'need' for the land or buildings under scrutiny.

"The first stage is for the acquiring authority to decide that land is required for some particular purpose or scheme and that they are prepared to use compulsory purchase powers to assist in achieving this."

I've attached the 'rulebook' for making a CPO.
What reason do you think was given for the CPO of the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, being as the site was just demolished and cleared, with no Developer signed up? Seems to have all gone through ok though.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on June 01, 2014, 05:22:08 PM
Quote
What reason do you think was given for the CPO of the Market Hall in Colwyn Bay, being as the site was just demolished and cleared, with no Developer signed up?

I don't know, and that's what I find curious. It does beg the question as to why, with a site that not that many people objected to, they sought and gained a CPO and yet with the P Pavilion - a festering sore in the sweep of Llandudno - no action is apparently being taken. Lots of questions but no answers it seems.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 01, 2014, 06:12:32 PM
I think that we can conclude that a legal precedent has been set.

The Market Hall was a long running eyesore in Colwyn Bay, over 50% of the complex had been left derelict since the fire in 1987. As with the Pier Pavilion site, the owner had many years to prepare Planning Applications, or, just sell the site. He chose to do neither. CCBC had no problem in arranging the CPO of the site even though no developer was attached to the project.

Mr. Taylor has had 15+ years to either develop the Pier Pavilion site or sell it. It's time to finally say, enough is enough, and acquire it legally from him, with a view to sympathetic redevelopment. I shall be contacting the Chairman of the Communities Overview & Scrutiny Committee to ask that the matter is brought onto the Agenda of the relevant meeting.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on June 01, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
An excellent move Dave,  it could be the first step towards a cascade of events which achieves great things.
From little acorns and all that, ... follow the process and who knows where it could lead.

A new landmark for Llandudno could emerge on that site, one which could bring a lot of employment and commerce, whilst still adding to the character of this fantastic town.



Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on June 01, 2014, 11:52:17 PM
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Hmmm, BlongB,   no dis-respect, but only someone who does not want to see something developed on that waste ground would think that way.


Not so Fester, we are not NIMBY's, as we personally wrote to the Tate Modern when they were looking for a Northern Gallery site and to the R.N.L.I. asking if they would consider putting a Lifeboat Museum there, both options would have met with are full approval but sadly both were declined.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on June 02, 2014, 09:19:49 AM
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Hmmm, BlongB,   no dis-respect, but only someone who does not want to see something developed on that waste ground would think that way.


Not so Fester, we are not NIMBY's, as we personally wrote to the Tate Modern when they were looking for a Northern Gallery site and to the R.N.L.I. asking if they would consider putting a Lifeboat Museum there, both options would have met with are full approval but sadly both were declined.
Would you be happy to see an entertainment centre on the site,  being of roughly the same size and design of the original Pavilion building?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on June 02, 2014, 05:04:41 PM
Bigger and better i say,oops too much again.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on June 02, 2014, 08:43:33 PM
Perhaps not bigger Wrex, but yes if it had a utilitarian use so much the better
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: born2run on July 30, 2014, 04:53:48 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710957/BREAKING-NEWS-Eastbourne-Pier-engulfed-flames-major-fire-breaks-arcade-building.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2710957/BREAKING-NEWS-Eastbourne-Pier-engulfed-flames-major-fire-breaks-arcade-building.html)

Eastbourne will now have their own, bet they still sort it out before we do ours  WWW
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on July 30, 2014, 11:43:37 PM
Unlikely Mate,  because the Pier is one of four owned by Six Piers Ltd.... (the owners of Llandudno Pier)

Instead, Eastbourne need to worry that (like Hastings and Brighton West) they will NEVER see their pier open ever again.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: hollins on July 31, 2014, 07:09:32 PM
What happens to burned piers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28582690?ocid=socialflow_twitter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28582690?ocid=socialflow_twitter)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: craigollerton on July 31, 2014, 07:13:31 PM
In a nutshell, single paragraph or a few words, what is the latest on this now??? I'm still waiting for my lottery win to buy the pavilion site outright. On the probability of things, that might come round sooner than it takes CCBC to do something about it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on August 01, 2014, 12:33:06 AM
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What happens to burned piers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28582690?ocid=socialflow_twitter (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28582690?ocid=socialflow_twitter)

Possibly the saddest and most poignant picture I have seen in many a long year...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: born2run on August 01, 2014, 09:44:36 AM
Should Colwyn Bay's not be in the 'lost' section on that map
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: ormegolf on May 10, 2015, 06:57:41 PM
  A bit of news to cheer up worried forum members. The pier pavilion site is currently having a lot of time and energy spent on it. Not physical but ladies and gentlemen with computers and printers very hard at work.
  I cannot write details because I have been told this is happening. I have not been sworn to secrecy or anything like that, but common sense tells me that anything written now would start an uproar as to how it had leaked out and this could prove embarrassing to say the least to my informant.
  Suffice to say that one of the parties involved with this site has changed his attitude and a new party is involved.
  I have deliberately not put this post in the Llandudno pier thread but because I don't want anyone adding two and two together and making five.  Mike ormegolf. (P.s. And no, it's not a golf driving range into the sea)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on May 10, 2015, 10:02:18 PM
VERY INTERESTING Mike...!!

I hope this is not a false dawn, and I hope it is something positive, tasteful.....  and not mis-managed!

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: born2run on May 11, 2015, 11:12:10 AM
Laser Quest!!!!  D)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Dwyforite on May 11, 2015, 09:31:48 PM
its about time a CPO was put on this site and the owner told  get it sorted or we the council  are taking control, this is an eyesore and a blot on the town,he should given a month and no more to come up with a plan or given a £1 and told enough is enough.this has gone on to long and I believe that the plan is the one regularly used in Llandudno leave it long enough and you will get planning for anything
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 12, 2015, 09:01:16 AM
A very interesting development, let's see what happens.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on May 15, 2015, 02:26:59 PM
After poking my nose in to this,  I am now hearing that things are about to be formalised and proposed, imminently!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Greyhound on May 15, 2015, 02:33:33 PM
Any clues or idea what might be happening. This is all so teasing!!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: norman08 on May 15, 2015, 02:40:37 PM
I seen the guys by the grand a few months ago they had plans with them ,Iv,e been told one was the one with the open cheque book , I was also told ccbc have been the stumbling block ,doesn,t supprise me ,so maybe at last our great council have come to an agreement  _))*  let us all hope .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Greyhound on May 15, 2015, 02:43:16 PM
Are they aiming for a hotel or leisure facility or combination?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: ormegolf on May 15, 2015, 04:21:52 PM
  I am not suggesting anything in particular. I am just stating a fact, publicly stated, a few months ago by Adam Williams. Regarding the Tir Prince Raceway in Towyn.
   He stated that, amongst many other topics, he was interested in developing a hotel complex on around Tir Prince. I didn't pay too much attention but I think his theme was that good quality accommodation and facilities was the way forward in the future.
 Obviously there was No, NO, NO mention of the pier.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on May 15, 2015, 04:26:58 PM
I might be wrong, but I understand that the new Pier owners are not the ones who are putting plans forward.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Greyhound on May 15, 2015, 04:41:03 PM
Seems like we'll have to wait to find out then...let's keep our fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: norman08 on May 15, 2015, 05:06:20 PM
No these guys are from the guy who owns the pavilion site ,I spoke to them early March .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 15, 2015, 06:30:28 PM
The owners plans stumbled previously because he wanted a hideous overdevelopment of the site with a totally unsuitable building design. It's far too important and prominent a site to be treated so badly.

I understand the current plans are only at the outline stage.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on January 29, 2016, 12:37:06 PM
New plans announced for the Pier Pavilion site...  ???

http://www.artist-david-hampson.com/ (http://www.artist-david-hampson.com/)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on January 29, 2016, 01:15:15 PM
Mmmmm see what you mean  ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bri Roberts on January 29, 2016, 02:59:25 PM
19-6-2014.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on January 29, 2016, 05:30:01 PM
In my humble opinion just like religion, it's Pie in the Sky and it won't happen.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 29, 2016, 11:46:23 PM
Interfaith centre, multiculturism....twaddle!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on January 30, 2016, 02:51:53 PM
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Interfaith centre, multiculturism....twaddle!

ME. did you get my email??
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on March 31, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on March 31, 2016, 02:49:34 PM
Don't trust Mostyn Estates for one moment, they do not  do anything for nothing.   They own at least two eyesores in the town, namely the Castle Hotel and the former Youth Club in Trinity Avenue and should concentrate on properties they already own.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: norman08 on March 31, 2016, 03:27:55 PM
Was going to ask what was going on there, walked past this morning it stank, hope the visitors didn't think it was the grand 😅
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on March 31, 2016, 04:46:43 PM
It was the Grand Norm
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: BertyBasset on April 03, 2016, 01:06:32 AM
Who are Mostyn Estates? http://www.mostynestates.co.uk (http://www.mostynestates.co.uk)
Or who are the major shareholders? I assume they are Llandudno based.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on April 03, 2016, 10:42:06 AM
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Who are Mostyn Estates? http://www.mostynestates.co.uk (http://www.mostynestates.co.uk)
Or who are the major shareholders? I assume they are Llandudno based.

Delve a little deeper into the website and you'll find this which basically explains it all:

Quote
Mostyn Estates Limited is a private limited company which manages the interests of the Mostyn family across North Wales and elsewhere.

The principal areas of activity are its commercial, residential and agricultural holdings within Llandudno, together with its agricultural estates based round Rhewl and Tremostyn, Flintshire.

The Mostyn family connection with Llandudno and Flintshire began over 500 years ago. The majority of the town as we know it today was laid out in 1849 by the Mostyn family, who leased most of the plots for development and influenced the building design and uses of the land. Mostyn Estates has always sought to promote the economic well being of the town and in recent years promoted Mostyn Champneys Retail Park, Parc Llandudno and the town’s Victoria Centre.

The Estate values the unique Victorian heritage whilst wishing to ensure the future prosperity of the town. Properties which are leased by, or bought from, Mostyn Estates are subject to covenants which assist in controlling the use to which the property can be put and maintaining standards such as repairs and alterations.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2016, 04:33:35 PM
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Who are Mostyn Estates? http://www.mostynestates.co.uk (http://www.mostynestates.co.uk)
Or who are the major shareholders? I assume they are Llandudno based.

Delve a little deeper into the website and you'll find this which basically explains it all:

Quote
Mostyn Estates Limited is a private limited company which manages the interests of the Mostyn family across North Wales and elsewhere.



The principal areas of activity are its commercial, residential and agricultural holdings within Llandudno, together with its agricultural estates based round Rhewl and Tremostyn, Flintshire.

The Mostyn family connection with Llandudno and Flintshire began over 500 years ago. The majority of the town as we know it today was laid out in 1849 by the Mostyn family, who leased most of the plots for development and influenced the building design and uses of the land. Mostyn Estates has always sought to promote the economic well being of the town and in recent years promoted Mostyn Champneys Retail Park, Parc Llandudno and the town’s Victoria Centre.

The Estate values the unique Victorian heritage whilst wishing to ensure the future prosperity of the town. Properties which are leased by, or bought from, Mostyn Estates are subject to covenants which assist in controlling the use to which the property can be put and maintaining standards such as repairs and alterations.

The Mostyn Estates website is rather more flattering to them than the actual reality of their deeds
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Cambrian on April 03, 2016, 06:11:30 PM
Full details of Mostyn Estates' directors and shareholders are available on: endole.co.uk
There are also links to their other companies and to the directors' other directorships.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: BertyBasset on April 04, 2016, 12:48:32 AM
So not actually Mostyn family, but some ner do well faceless investors then. Shall have a peep at the endole website. Now I'm an old fashioned type of person and assumed the local council owned and controlled stuff.  Mostyn Estates obviously owns stuff. Do they control stuff as well?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2016, 08:04:33 AM
Mostyn Estates by the Enclosure Act of 1843  were  legally allowed to steal land from the people of Llandudno and surrounding areas.  They then sold the land that they had legally stolen, but this land was then only sold as leasehold.
Mostyn Estates then retained the freehold and then had control of the development of any property built on their land.

A good book to read on this is Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"    in it he describes the Mostyn Family as being morally and financially bankrupt.     This was before the Enclosure Act came into force and and it was Llandudno that saved the Mostyns rather than the mistaken interpretation that the Mostyns saved Llandudno

Chris Draper and John Lawson Reay have issued a book called "Llandudno through time"   and it shows photos of Llandudno in the past and photos of the same thing now.   There are two classic examples there of what Mostyn Estates are all about.     They are a business and just look after their own interests, no one elses.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Greyhound on April 04, 2016, 09:44:36 AM
I appreciate you're no lover of Mostyn Estates, but if it weren't for them and for their control of the town, I doubt we would be writing on this forum about our lovely town, or whether we would even be living here as - although doubtless some urban development would have taken place - I can't see how it would have taken any different form from that in either Colwyn Bay or Rhyl. It would have been piecemeal and poorly planned and would surely have gone down the same route of inappropriate conversions from hospitality use to multi-occupancy and all the attendant social problems and lack of civic pride we see in other towns along the coast.

To describe a whole family as morally bankrupt is pretty harsh, even quoting another author. Like any family I guess you have some bad apples, but then you have others (like Lady Augusta Mostyn years ago and even the last Lord Mostyn-but-one to bring it more up-to-date) who were widely respected and cared for the town and its residents. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 04, 2016, 12:08:46 PM
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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
I assume Mostyn Estates received permission to carry out the work from the Owner, so can we safely assume they are interested in buying the site? Maybe they have an authentic reconstruction of the Pavilion in mind...?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2016, 12:12:08 PM
You have your opinion and you may well be correct, so I suppose what you are saying is that the end justifies the means.    Legally steal the land, clear the squatters out then you have a blank canvas for the development of a town.

Then sell the land off, keep the freehold and charge ground rent at the same time.   Then if you decide to terminate the lease, then any property on it reverts back to Mostyn Estates.    That's really good business sense.

What I quoted from the author was that the Mostyn's were morally and financially bankrupt and if you have a read of the book you'll see the reason why the statement was made by the author.   

I believe that Mostyn Estates have agreed to fund money for Victorian lamps and shelters on the Promenade to go with the Victorian image of Llandudno but that promise was made some time ago and I've seen nothing happening.    Perhaps I've completely misjudged the company, only time will tell.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2016, 12:28:14 PM
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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
I assume Mostyn Estates received permission to carry out the work from the Owner, so can we safely assume they are interested in buying the site? Maybe they have an authentic reconstruction of the Pavilion in mind...?

Dave, come on now, you should know that Mostyn Estates never do anything for nothing.        &shake&
So how come Mostyn Estates have been able to do something on the site when all the powers that the CCBC have couldn't?
Perhaps that stink that everyone could smell wasn't from the Grand after all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 04, 2016, 01:13:27 PM
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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
I assume Mostyn Estates received permission to carry out the work from the Owner, so can we safely assume they are interested in buying the site? Maybe they have an authentic reconstruction of the Pavilion in mind...?

Dave, come on now, you should know that Mostyn Estates never do anything for nothing.        &shake&
So how come Mostyn Estates have been able to do something on the site when all the powers that the CCBC have couldn't?
Perhaps that stink that everyone could smell wasn't from the Grand after all.
I'm sure that they have profit in mind when considering any development, but if it means that the Pavilion site if sympathetically redeveloped after all these years of deadlock, then that surely is a good thing?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 04, 2016, 02:05:00 PM
Amen to that!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2016, 02:09:06 PM
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Amen to that!

I'll second that and not before time either.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 04, 2016, 04:57:44 PM
lets hope Mostyn estates have stolen the site,no sign of them starting the Tudno castle in March 2016,maybe they meant 2017
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2016, 06:16:47 PM
The Pavilion site is long overdue for development but the recent posts about it made me think back to shortly after the fire happened .  I remember it getting fenced off and the gate was padlocked to prevent access to the site.
I'm almost certain that the notice on the gate said no admittance by order of Mostyn Estates,  but as we know they don't own the freehold so why did Mostyn Estates  fence it off and put that notice up.
Having said that though, isn't that how they came to claim Llandudno in the first place.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 04, 2016, 10:51:50 PM
The Pavilion Site was occupied by surveyors again today
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 05, 2016, 07:58:17 AM
That does sound promising.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 05, 2016, 11:39:56 AM
A massive glass roofed building ,two floors a few shops Coffee shops,museums,childens model railway exibition,sorted
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 05, 2016, 12:24:59 PM
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A massive glass roofed building ,two floors a few shops Coffee shops,museums,childens model railway exibition,sorted
A selection of wet weather attractions in a revamped Pavilion would be a godsend for Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 05, 2016, 12:51:58 PM
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A massive glass roofed building ,two floors a few shops Coffee shops,museums,childens model railway exibition,sorted
A selection of wet weather attractions in a revamped Pavilion would be a godsend for Llandudno.

Not to mention a MONEY SPINNER!!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 05, 2016, 01:10:51 PM
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A massive glass roofed building ,two floors a few shops Coffee shops,museums,childens model railway exibition,sorted

And adult's model railway! 😀 I often wonder what visitors look at in the rain?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 05, 2016, 01:35:54 PM
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A massive glass roofed building ,two floors a few shops Coffee shops,museums,childens model railway exibition,sorted

And adult's model railway! 😀 I often wonder what visitors look at in the rain?
Beer usually
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 05, 2016, 01:55:45 PM
First time that I have managed to get down there. They have certainly shifted some 'muck' around in the place. Any more news as to why and who?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 05, 2016, 07:23:58 PM
I had a look at it today and they have been busy.    It would be nice to know what is going on there.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 05, 2016, 07:41:48 PM
Talked to the Surveyor this morning and he said Mostyns were thinking of putting Flats on the sight. When I said that would be difficult as it had been included in the Hotel Habitation Zone in the last Local Development Plan, he said he thought that wouldn't be a problem, as there had never been a Hotel on the site, in his opinion they wouldn't be obliged to build one. I think he's wrong as surely the area would just have been classed for redevelopment if that were the case. Still a lot of water has got to pass under the bridge before anything positive happens.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 05, 2016, 07:49:54 PM
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I had a look at it today and they have been busy.    It would be nice to know what is going on there.

Like your pictures Hugo, they show the site and mess up beautifully, and just like when the Council paid to have the place "Cleaned Up" last time, 10 /1 it will now be left in that dreadful state to enhance the town to our summer visitors.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: outlawowl on April 05, 2016, 09:33:33 PM
I don't post very often but I thought I would join in on this one.....interesting that Mostyn Estates are being referred to as the driving force behind what is going on at the site...I think there may be another party involved.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2016, 07:56:29 AM
You are probably correct outlawowl, as for one thing Mostyn Estates wouldn't be allowed to do work on the site without permission and for another thing as I've said so many times before they do not do anything for nothing.   There is no such thing as a goodwill gesture with that company.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DVT on April 06, 2016, 09:25:25 AM
Quote - Hugo ... "There is no such thing as a goodwill gesture with that company."

Without going into detail I can say that is incorrect.  They are very supportive towards a major sporting event based in the town.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2016, 09:36:16 AM
In that case then, I take back what I said that  "There is no such thing as a goodwill gesture with that company."


Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 06, 2016, 09:55:49 AM
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Talked to the Surveyor this morning and he said Mostyns were thinking of putting Flats on the sight. When I said that would be difficult as it had been included in the Hotel Habitation Zone in the last Local Development Plan, he said he thought that wouldn't be a problem, as there had never been a Hotel on the site, in his opinion they wouldn't be obliged to build one. I think he's wrong as surely the area would just have been classed for redevelopment if that were the case. Still a lot of water has got to pass under the bridge before anything positive happens.
Perhaps he was pulling your leg? The Pavilion site is classified for Tourism/Leisure use in the LDP and there's no compelling reason for that to change.

CR4 / MS11 - Pier Pavilion, Llandudno
The pier pavilion site on Llandudno promenade has been proposed for
tourism and/or leisure uses. Being on the promenade in a central location
and within the boundaries of the Llandudno Conservation Area, a
sensitive design approach would be required for any proposal. The
Council supports the use of this site for tourism/leisure uses and
discussions are ongoing with the owners with a view to developing in the
medium Plan phases.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: TELL on April 06, 2016, 10:13:44 AM
We help with a local charity and get a lot of help from Mostyn Estates. I get a little tired of the regular sniping at them on the forum. They may not be perfect but there are a lot worse "landlords" that Llandudno could have. However, with our local councils we would be hard pushed to find worse.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 06, 2016, 07:34:06 PM
A couple more pics taken on my iPhone today,
I'm just wondering... what degree of certainty do we have that Mostyn Estates have commissioned these surveys?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 06, 2016, 07:37:48 PM
Wrong way up, sorry

Not now.  Ian
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 06, 2016, 09:42:47 PM
Which ever way up, it looks ghastly !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 07, 2016, 07:09:16 AM
Why where you lying on your side taking pictures anyway
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 07, 2016, 09:37:22 AM
Here's a bit of news for you all that everyone has missed...even our intrepid local journalists...

The Pier Pavilion was SOLD on the 24th September 2015 for £850,000 and the new owners are.....

MAURICE NIXON & DONNA NIXON

Who..I hear you ask?

Well, Maurice Nixon is a Market Operator, a very successful businessman, whos runs Portobello and Spitalfields Markets in London. His Companies are nearly all registered to an address in Worcester, 15 Castle Street. Sounds familiar? 15 Castle Street is where the previous owner of the Pavilion site, David Taylor, was based. Going back even further, the company that was planning to convert the Pavilion into an Indoor Market was called Launchsign Ltd, based in Worcester....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2016, 12:02:29 PM
So, of course the ownership has never actually changed then, and Mr Nixon has done a great job of concealing the ownership under layers of companies for many years, until..... he was ready to announce it and do something with it.
It's an 'inter-company ' transaction then. 

 *&( *&( *&(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on April 07, 2016, 12:12:06 PM
Sticking up for us "intrepid local journalists"  ;) - Not sure there's much to report seeing as it is an inter-company sale. When the balls starts rolling (if it ever does) we'll do our best to cover it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bosun on April 07, 2016, 12:20:34 PM
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Sticking up for us "intrepid local journalists"  ;) - Not sure there's much to report seeing as it is an inter-company sale. When the balls starts rolling (if it ever does) we'll do our best to cover it.

That Tom, I have to say, is a pretty weak offering. The ownership of the site, and the fact that there has been a recent change of ownership, however technical that change might be, is of great interest to those of us who consider this on-going eyesore a complete travesty for Llandudno that severely damages the town's image.

Congratulations to Dave R for an excellent piece of detective work that is of interest to us all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 07, 2016, 12:23:02 PM
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Sticking up for us "intrepid local journalists"  ;) - Not sure there's much to report seeing as it is an inter-company sale. When the balls starts rolling (if it ever does) we'll do our best to cover it.
That Tom, I have to say, is a pretty weak offering. The ownership of the site, and the fact that there has been a recent change of ownership, however technical that change might be, is of great interest to those of us who consider this on-going eyesore a complete travesty for Llandudno that severely damages the town's image.
Congratulations to Dave R for an excellent piece of detective work that is of interest to us all.

Well said Bosun on all counts, you just beat me to it....... $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2016, 12:23:31 PM
Dave R is the 'all seeing EYE!!'
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 07, 2016, 12:26:04 PM
Yes that was a good find by Dave in the first place, but I hope that Dave has also advised the CCBC of the new ownership or otherwise the CCBC  might continue corresponding with the previous company for the next 10 years or so.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2016, 12:28:29 PM
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Sticking up for us "intrepid local journalists"  ;) - Not sure there's much to report seeing as it is an inter-company sale. When the balls starts rolling (if it ever does) we'll do our best to cover it.

Ha ha Tom, if that were true they wouldn't have bothered reporting the Havana Papers, after all it's just a bit of 'inter company' accounts juggling.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Dave on April 07, 2016, 12:51:24 PM
I know nothing of these matters but if a piece of land was sold wouldn't there be stamp duty payable? That would make transfer of ownership to hide owners an expensive business.

The other point is, if the owners are trying to hide, why not just start developing the land and see who comes out of the woodwork ?

All too simplistic I'm sure but I'm sure some one will tell me why this isn't so.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 07, 2016, 02:38:16 PM
I have put the whole search page link below...... enjoy    ?{}?


https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enES433ES433&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=maurice%20nixon%20worcester (https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHKZ_enES433ES433&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=maurice%20nixon%20worcester)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Dave on April 07, 2016, 03:32:05 PM
It's amazing the way some of these people work, opening and closing companies,hiding assets etc etc.
Are these people that the rest of us support with their tax avoidance schemes etc, the real burden on our society ?
They are certainly more than capable of surviving without our help unlike those that tend to be the most often targeted with abuse for needing social care.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Meleri on April 07, 2016, 04:14:35 PM
An update is due by the Councils Communities Overview & Scrutiny Committee on the 9th June 2016 on the Pier Pavilion site. I wouldn't hold my breath on them actually doing anything about it though, with the lack of funds. It doesn't bode well that this Mr Nixon has held 138 appointments at 138 dissolved companies does it. Perhaps the Mr Nixon that is registered at No 11 Castle Street sold the site on to the Mr Nixon at No 15 Castle Street then dissolved the company.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2016, 04:35:07 PM
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It's amazing the way some of these people work, opening and closing companies,hiding assets etc etc.
Are these people that the rest of us support with their tax avoidance schemes etc, the real burden on our society ?
They are certainly more than capable of surviving without our help unlike those that tend to be the most often targeted with abuse for needing social care.

In a word Dave, Yes!
Mainly because they are smarter than I am.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 07, 2016, 04:46:31 PM
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An update is due by the Councils Communities Overview & Scrutiny Committee on the 9th June 2016 on the Pier Pavilion site. I wouldn't hold my breath on them actually doing anything about it though, with the lack of funds. It doesn't bode well that this Mr Nixon has held 138 appointments at 138 dissolved companies does it. Perhaps the Mr Nixon that is registered at No 11 Castle Street sold the site on to the Mr Nixon at No 15 Castle Street then dissolved the company.  &shake&

It doesn't look promising Meleri but I wonder why the started to clear the site now?     

I did try looking for info on the sand clearance in the public areas of West Shore but couldn't find anything.  Did the meeting go ahead?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 07, 2016, 05:14:29 PM
Could our local reporter be sent to Worcester by the paper and find out a little more,lets be honest we would all love to know why these people have left us with such an eyesore for all these years,we the readers of our local paper WOULD love somebody to out these firms
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: norman08 on April 07, 2016, 06:10:22 PM
It's also good what the old Facebook brings up about them all .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Meleri on April 08, 2016, 03:03:30 PM
 The topic of West shore was postponed on the date I gave you and I haven't heard when they intend bringing it up again, Hugo. It was recommended at a meeting in December 2015 that the Council would seek a Beach Management Appraisal Report for North & West Shore. A Grant Funding application for £60K towards production of the report was submitted to Welsh Government in November 2015 but I haven't heard anything since.
You may find something on the Llandudno Coastal Forum site. There are a few e-mail links on there that you could try for more information.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 08, 2016, 03:07:41 PM
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So, of course the ownership has never actually changed then, and Mr Nixon has done a great job of concealing the ownership under layers of companies for many years, until..... he was ready to announce it and do something with it.

Makes you think why have they sat on this piece of land worth £850.000 for so long? why move it about internally?
their finances are not that good.....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 08, 2016, 04:13:51 PM
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The topic of West shore was postponed on the date I gave you and I haven't heard when they intend bringing it up again, Hugo. It was recommended at a meeting in December 2015 that the Council would seek a Beach Management Appraisal Report for North & West Shore. A Grant Funding application for £60K towards production of the report was submitted to Welsh Government in November 2015 but I haven't heard anything since.
You may find something on the Llandudno Coastal Forum site. There are a few e-mail links on there that you could try for more information.  $walesflag$

Thank you very much Meleri, it's really appreciated.   I think the problem with the West Shore sand will be a tough one to solve and I don't envy anyone on that committee.
I'll have a look at the Llandudno Costal Forum site and see what's on it
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 09, 2016, 07:37:52 PM
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Makes you think why have they sat on this piece of land worth £850.000 for so long? why move it about internally?
their finances are not that good.....


His capital gains liability will be quite considerable as the Pavilion was originally sold for £180,000. As to moving the ownership around internally, it's an asset when all's said and done it could be used to raise money.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2016, 11:06:52 PM
I don't know who Maurice and Donna Nixon bought the land from although  I do know that David Taylor owned it in 1993.    Did David Taylor still own the land in 2015 and sell it to the Nixons?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 10, 2016, 12:22:00 AM
Looks like Mr Nixon has always owned it, and 'Mr Taylor' never actually existed.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bosun on April 10, 2016, 06:15:00 AM
The long running sage of the machinations of the Pier Pavilion site are, (whilst being an utter disgrace,) a fascinating piece of local history which if thoroughly investigated and set out in detail would not only be a superb article if done properly, but probably bring into the open highly dubious practices on all sides of the affair. It could well be Llandudno's equivalent of the Panama expose....... which might prompt some action.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 10, 2016, 08:23:09 AM
It appears that only because Mostyn estates have decided they have a vision for the site that thinks are being done,CCBC have deliberately used this ownership issue to ignore the problem.Anytime there is an issue with the station wasteland Mr Done is made to clear the site or put up fences,pier pavillion site has always been an ownership issue which they rekon they could never find the true owners.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 10, 2016, 11:28:56 AM
According to an extract I have of the site David Taylor of 11 Castle Street Worcester  WR1 3AD   was the registered owner as at 24th April 2007.
  I have no idea whether that ownership changed hands after 2007 and before the sale last year.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 10, 2016, 10:39:34 PM
I looked into the Pavilion hole this evening and it's filling up with water. It's not from seawater because the tide level was way below the bottom of the pit and it wasn't from rain water either so it's going to be very interesting to see how it develops.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: mull on April 11, 2016, 08:28:44 AM
There used to be a swimming pool down there. perhars they have uncovered it !   ;D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 11, 2016, 10:00:12 AM
I seem to recall that there's a connection into the Great Orme Mines system from somewhere along the Pavilion's back wall, so water may be entering the site from there? When I explored the Pavilion back in 1990*, I found a void between the back wall of the building and the cliff face behind, that was ankle deep in what I thought at the time was sea water.


* http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3480.0.html (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3480.0.html)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 11, 2016, 03:09:18 PM
According to CCBC  they have no idea when work will commence on the former Penmorfa Hotel site on the West Shore.   The whole history of the planning application on that site seems strange.
The first application  for change of use of hotel and extension to form 24 (twenty four) residential apartments and formation of a car parking. was refused 9th March 2005.  The second  application was also refused but then granted on appeal

Then in December 2006 another application for a change of use of hotel, part demolition and erection of extensions to form 25
(twenty five) residential apartments and formation of car park (revised scheme) was granted.

Anwyl Construction then straight away demolished the side extensions of the property but the central structure appeared to be unsecured.

In January 2008 another application was made to demolish the main house and increase the number of apartments to 28 and that was granted

A Certificate of lawfulness was granted on 19th August 2013 for the laying of an underground pipe.  However the laying of the underground pipe did not qualify as a commencement of the approved development because the pipe did not reach the foundations of the building, or a trench to contain the foundations of the building.   The pipe was laid in May 2011.

Obviously the Certificate was granted retrospectively but it appears that there is no rush to develop this prime site and I can see it continuing on the list of eyesores for some time to come.


.



Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 11, 2016, 03:54:00 PM
If the site is left derelict for a number of years and then redeveloped, Anwyl can legally avoid paying the tax that would otherwise be due.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 11, 2016, 07:42:45 PM
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If the site is left derelict for a number of years and then redeveloped, Anwyl can legally avoid paying the tax that would otherwise be due.

Are you refering to the Brownfield tax reliefs?      Relief only applies if the land was in a derelict state when the company purchased it, and it must have been in a derelict state continuously since 1 April 1998;
If it is then perhaps Anwyl Construction may not be entitled to it, but judging from the way they have manipulated the planning application I would imagine they have contingency plans ready.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 12, 2016, 10:55:04 AM
This morning ! The water seems to have an oily look to it..........and the smell isn't good either !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 12, 2016, 11:05:47 AM
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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
Are they still clearing ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 12, 2016, 11:08:45 AM
Don't think I've ever seen it flooded like that before - I wonder if the digger they used has ruptured a pipe?

Looks like we can look forward to a reopening of the Pavilion's basement swimming pool - over a hundred years after it first closed....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 12, 2016, 11:27:09 AM
No, no one there, looks like an open cast mining site without the coal !

Dave, let me know when you are going for your swim and I will book you some typhoid jabs ! :o

In short..it looks worse than before .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on April 12, 2016, 11:28:19 AM
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Don't think I've ever seen it flooded like that before - I wonder if the digger they used has ruptured a pipe?

Looks like we can look forward to a reopening of the Pavilion's basement swimming pool - over a hundred years after it first closed....

Or maybe blocked some drainage outlets? I didn't realise all the 'clearing' meant was shoving piles of muck from one corner to the other!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 12, 2016, 11:56:16 AM
Don't think clearing is the correct word, as you say, shoving smelly muck around !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 12, 2016, 12:03:10 PM
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Don't think I've ever seen it flooded like that before - I wonder if the digger they used has ruptured a pipe?

Looks like we can look forward to a reopening of the Pavilion's basement swimming pool - over a hundred years after it first closed....

Dave, don't underestimate the level of rainfall these last few nights, it will collect down there like a bowl I reckon.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 12, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
I remember the guy that was the last Caretaker at the Pavilion telling me that the basement flooded regularly back then and had to be pumped out.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 12, 2016, 02:20:31 PM
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Are they still clearing ?

No Steve, that's it, all finished and wrapped up and we are left to enjoy the aftermath of their labours.

It also truly shows how much CCBC holds Llandudno in contempt, because they will not use their statutory powers under the Town and Country Planning Act to force the Owners of the site to keep it clean and tidy at no expense to the Rate Payers.

If he refuses to pay he can be fined on a daily basis until he owes more than the site is worth and an attachment can be put on the property to prevent it being sold until the outstanding debt is paid. The legislation is there all that's needed is the political will to use it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on April 12, 2016, 02:41:42 PM
I wonder if their reluctance to do anything whatsoever is mere incompetence or something more?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 12, 2016, 02:44:14 PM
Does anyone know who actually paid for this "clean up?"
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: mull on April 12, 2016, 06:28:02 PM
Is there a "smell" around this ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 12, 2016, 07:12:18 PM
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Does anyone know who actually paid for this "clean up?"

Whilst the so called "clean up" was in full swing, Edward Hiller, the managing director of Mostyn Estates, turned up with his side kick, to watch what was going on. My OH asked him if Mostyn's had bought the site and he said not at the moment. ( I think they paid for the "clearing" of the site so a development feasibility survey could be carried out).
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 12, 2016, 07:41:14 PM
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Does anyone know who actually paid for this "clean up?"

Whilst the so called "clean up" was in full swing, Edward Hiller, the managing director of Mostyn Estates, turned up with his side kick, to watch what was going on. My OH asked him if Mostyn's had bought the site and he said not at the moment. ( I think they paid for the "clearing" of the site so a development feasibility survey could be carried out).

Thanks very much for that info Blongb and it does make some sense from the business point of view.    Mostyn Estates must have been in contact with the new owners though, as they must have had permission to enter the site and carry out the work that has been done.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: norman08 on April 12, 2016, 09:00:48 PM
Well I hope the weather doesn't get too warm as their will be one stink coming from there ,cleaned it up they have made it look worse .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 12, 2016, 09:41:23 PM
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Well I hope the weather doesn't get too warm as their will be one stink coming from there ,cleaned it up they have made it look worse .

There might be more than one stink coming from there Norman.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 13, 2016, 12:41:03 AM
Look, no matter who is looking to develop the site, Mr Nixon etc, it makes absolute sense for Mostyn Estates to be involved.
If you don't keep THEM onside, then nothing at all will get done.
I for one, welcome the start of any potential 'joint venture'
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 13, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
A POTENTIAL ‘golden opportunity’ could be on the way for the site of Llandudno's Pier Pavilion.

In a statement released on Tuesday, April 12, developer Alan Waldron - whose earlier projects have included a scheme for the derelict Deganwy dock, including the prestigious Quay Hotel - announced that he had secured and intended to redevelop the pavilion site, which has remained uncleared and has been regarded as an eyesore since being destroyed by a fire in 1994.

Mr Waldron said: “I intend to redevelop the site to the highest standard with a combination of underground car parking, commercial floor-space and residential units.

"To that end, early liaison is taking place with Conwy Council and Mostyn Estates on the concepts of design and I am working closely with the owners of the pier on matters of joint interest.

"Progress will also involve CADW in respect of Listed Building interests and the Design Commission. “

But after speaking with Mr Waldron, who intends to complete the planning application process within the next 12 months, Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams said he has concerns about the wider impact of the plans.

He said: "We've had a conversation. I'm failing to see what benefit there is on offer for Llandudno Pier.

"In fact I feel that whatever goes on that site, if it doesn't involve Llandudno pier it will be detrimental to the pier mainly for financial reasons.

"If we have to share the commercial pound and the pier doesn't get its full pound, or the concessions that are on the pier decide to move to the pier pavilion site the pier will lose income.

"Therefore there will be less funds for the refurbishment and upkeep - I have a concern that if the funds become so low the business would not be viable.

"Then we end up with a situation similar to Colwyn Bay Pier, which should never happen.

"It deters me from investing more if someone else is going to reap the pier's rewards."

Councillor Graham Rees, Conwy’s cabinet member for tourism, marketing and leisure, said: “The Pier Pavilion site has been an eyesore for decades and many people will be eager to hear about proposals to develop the site.

“This exciting proposal is another demonstration of confidence of people willing to invest in Llandudno; with the potential to be a major contribution to economic investment in the town.

“This is a golden opportunity for a quality redevelopment at a key tourism site and I wish Mr Waldron and his team every success in their endeavour.”

Cllr Frank Bradfield, Mayor of Llandudno, said: "This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something that visitors and residents would delight in. It has been abandoned for far too long."
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bosun on April 13, 2016, 03:59:06 PM
Nice to hear, well done Bri.

Lets hope that the issues of concern for Adam Williams can be addressed.

Tom, you missed that one......
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 13, 2016, 04:43:55 PM
Obviously at the moment Adam Williams has units blocking the front of the pier pavillion,im not sure where he standsif all those have to move,i can see his worry but god i hope he does;nt put a spanner in the works
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 13, 2016, 04:46:42 PM
Echoing Bosun, very well done Bri.   

I must admit that after spending £4 million, I thought that Adam Williams would have been involved somehow with any project involving this site, and can understand his concerns, however on the bright side the project could bring more footfall to the pier.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 13, 2016, 11:23:47 PM
Haven't there been similar applications made for planning on this site, but all have been refused by CCBC?     It's not unusual for a developer (Alan Waldron in this case) to make a planning application when the site is owned by someone else  ( Maurice Nixon )  but Mostyn Estates role in this is unclear at present. 
At least Alan Waldron has a proven track record and hopefully this situation may at long last be sorted out.



http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/160860/developer-unveils-plans-for-llandudno-s-pier-pavillion-site.aspx#.Vw7Dbx1QGJc.email (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/160860/developer-unveils-plans-for-llandudno-s-pier-pavillion-site.aspx#.Vw7Dbx1QGJc.email)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 14, 2016, 09:13:35 AM
I suspect that the redevelopment will be a joint venture between Alan Waldron and Mostyn Estates. Personally, I think this is great news for the town, Mr Waldron is an experienced developer and has a track record of high quality developments.

The key to success in this redevelopment will be the design of the building - it is imperative that it is sympathetic to its surroundings and ideally resembles in some form the original Pavilion building. I hope that Mr Waldron intends to engage with the local community during the design/planning process (perhaps by means of a dedicated website?) so that we have a chance to become involved in the process before it reaches the planning application stage. It's no exaggeration to say that this really is a 'once in a lifetime' opportunity to replace the landmark Pavilion building - we must get the design right or future generations will judge us harshly.

As Henry Newbolt once said, "Let us build for the years we shall not see".
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2016, 08:51:58 AM
It's odd how this story is front page of the North Wales Pioneer but there is no trace of it on the Daily Post website?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on April 15, 2016, 10:33:47 AM
I've flagged it up with my colleagues, I don't cover Conwy anymore - although I do live in Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2016, 10:47:39 AM
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I've flagged it up with my colleagues, I don't cover Conwy anymore - although I do live in Llandudno.
Cheers, Tom. $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 21, 2016, 03:09:40 PM
Sorry my computer playing up, just the link....

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudnos-pier-pavilion-cost-15m-11220542 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudnos-pier-pavilion-cost-15m-11220542)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 22, 2016, 09:26:14 AM
Here's the text of the article:

Llandudno's Pier Pavilion will cost £15m to re-develop
13:44, 21 APR 2016 UPDATED 17:05, 21 APR 2016
BY OWEN HUGHES
New owner has talked about the plans for the site that burnt down more than 20 years ago
   



The new owner of Llandudno’s Pier Pavilion says it could cost £15m to redevelop but he hopes to submit plans for the eyesore site by the summer.

Fire destroyed the structure in 1994, and the site has lain empty since then - a blot on the landscape of the Victorian seaside resort.


But now businessman Alan Waldron, who developed the Deganwy Quay project, has bought the site for a figure of around £1m and is developing plans for a parking, commercial and residential scheme.


He said he hoped to create an “iconic building” but said the development will be in keeping with the surroundings.

He told the Daily Post: “We want to move on this as quickly as possible but we also have to work with the council, Cadw, Mostyn Estates and the Design Commission to ensure we get the scheme right.

“We have already started working with the local authority and we are hoping to submit plans by the summer and hope to have the planning process completed by the end of the year and be on site at the start of 2017.

“The build project would take around two years and I am committed to using local firms.

“The whole project will cost £14m/£15m and I now need to sell North Wales, sell Llandudno to get that additional investment on board.

"It is about convincing people with money in places like London that Llandudno is a place to invest in.”


He added: “The scheme will be in keeping with the Pavilion that was there before but it needs to be bigger than it was to make it viable.

“It will not be as high as the Grand(hotel) though and we don’t intend to extend to the south west of the former building.

“It will start with car parking, and then commercial and residential units.”

Pier owner Adam Williams has voiced concerns over the type of development brought to the site.

He said there was a risk that commercial could take revenue away from the pier site and potentially impact on future maintenance and investment.

But Mr Waldron said: “We have to work together and I am sure we can come up with the scheme that we can agree on.”

He said they both had the same aim of selling and promoting Llandudno.

Cllr Graham Rees, Conwy’s Cabinet Member for Tourism, Marketing and Leisure, said: “The Pier Pavilion site has been an eyesore for decades and many people will be eager to hear about proposals to develop the site.

“This exciting proposal is another demonstration of confidence of people willing to invest in Llandudno; with the potential to be a major contribution to economic investment in the town.

"This is a golden opportunity for a quality redevelopment at a key tourism site and I wish Mr Waldron and his team every success in their endeavour.”
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on April 22, 2016, 11:32:55 AM
Does the Pier company actually have to give access to the new Pavilion development or could they continue with the frontage of shops as at present? It would actually be good if the retail units in the new Pavilion opened out on to the road at the back to give more life to that area.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2016, 12:02:29 PM
Just a thought,  Dylan's in Menai Bridge has been sold to Mostyn Estates and Dylan's are looking for a suitable site in the Conwy area.   Would this be a suitable site?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 22, 2016, 12:57:05 PM
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Does the Pier company actually have to give access to the new Pavilion development or could they continue with the frontage of shops as at present? It would actually be good if the retail units in the new Pavilion opened out on to the road at the back to give more life to that area.
I believe the Pier Company has to grant access to the Pavilion along the area that it abuts the Pier (basically from the arcade to the Grand Hotel).
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Neil on April 22, 2016, 02:08:52 PM
When my parents brought me on holiday to Llandudno in the 50s, I remember going to a underground amusment arcade with dodgems, was it under the Pier Pavilion?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2016, 04:13:09 PM
Yes that Arcade was called Tucson's, had many a good time there when I was in my teens.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 22, 2016, 04:20:57 PM
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Does the Pier company actually have to give access to the new Pavilion development or could they continue with the frontage of shops as at present? It would actually be good if the retail units in the new Pavilion opened out on to the road at the back to give more life to that area.
I believe the Pier Company has to grant access to the Pavilion along the area that it abuts the Pier (basically from the arcade to the Grand Hotel).

How many businesses would that affect ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 22, 2016, 04:50:44 PM
This is the main reason Adam Williams is not a happy bunny,quite a few of the units backing onto the pier pavillion would sureley have to go along with his rent,lets hope they sort it out amongst themselves
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: spotty dog on April 22, 2016, 09:32:30 PM
Why would  some of his units have to go ? Surely if he has unbridled use of the site for more than 10years he has adverse possession. Seeing the owner has not been available to maintain the site forr some 20 years
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 23, 2016, 07:16:25 AM
So if they deciced to put it back as it was Adam could decide you have no access,weird one that
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 24, 2016, 07:49:44 PM
The retail units are a very mysterious suggestion and Mr Alan Waldron obviously hasn't done his research very well. You have to go back through the Deeds a very long way but they contain codicils that prevent any retail on the Pavilion site that compete with anything sold on the Pier. The site is also to remain Alcohol free. He doesn't have the right of access through where Mr Adam Williams found the Cabins when he bought the Pier. As to giving retail shops access onto North Parade, that's a non starter as its not Zoned for that use and would be most vigorously fought by the local residents on the traffic congestion problems alone.

He say's the scheme will cost £14 - £15 million to developed. Is he under the misrepresentation that he will qualify for huge Grants of Tax Payers money to fund his development, like he was able to secure for Deganwy Quay?, when after all you and I would be contributing to help build luxury flats for a few very rich people, that we couldn't afford to buy.

Yes I want the site developed, but not at any price, this is a half baked idea, just like all the other schemes that have been proposed in the past, it's pie in the sky and should be treated as such. &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 24, 2016, 11:57:44 PM
I'll bet you £15m that this goes ahead in either this, or a very similar form.
This time it has money, political will from all sides and savvy business men to 'oil the wheels' of progress.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on April 25, 2016, 08:59:21 AM
Hmmm...it's sad that our country (and most in the West) are run by banks, instead of elected representatives.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 25, 2016, 12:38:42 PM
I'd bet a few quid that the plans for the Pavilion go through and the development takes place. It's the first realistic redevelopment proposal for the site since the fire and we can't let minor objections get in the way.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 25, 2016, 01:03:23 PM
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It's the first realistic redevelopment proposal for the site since the fire and we can't let minor objections get in the way.

I find nothing realistic in the proposal to put Flats with Shops on the site and I can assure you there would be nothing minor about the objections that would be raised. We have planning laws in this country for a very good reasons.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 25, 2016, 05:19:14 PM
Well it looks like a battle,there is noway any developer will rely on shops to make it pay or a couple of restaurants as we have a couple of large units empty with no interest so without money from residental its a non starter.Not really to bothered but in the modern age it would be kamakazi for any developer to think they could rely on purely retail,sorry.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 25, 2016, 05:51:40 PM
I was wondering earlier how many flats it would take to recoup £15m. leaving aside the commercial aspect....a rough estimate of 75 at £200.000 each, would just break even.

As an example the recently developed Cwrt Gloddaeth has 44 mixed 1 and 2 bedroom flats on quite a large site, ranging from £175.000 to £230.000, (not all with parking) again a rough total of £8m.

How many flats can this site take ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 25, 2016, 09:59:30 PM
I was working on a price per apartment of nearer £500k,  and about 30 of them with 2 underground car parking spaces each.
Hence why he is looking to London for investors, that would be cheap for property to those folks, especially with such an iconic view.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 26, 2016, 07:03:38 AM
Would there be any room for a shop or a restaurant with that many flats
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 26, 2016, 07:20:30 AM
I think a likely scenario is a 5 storey building, with basement car parking, 2 connected floors of shops/restaurants/leisure at pier level and maybe 2 levels of apartments above. Mr Waldron intends to gain the support of Cadw, Design Council for Wales and CCBC before submitting his plans to ensure it all goes through smoothly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 26, 2016, 10:43:16 AM
And once he gets the go ahead to put flats on the promenade that drives a coach and horses through the current planning protection laws and a large number of struggling hotels will put in applications to convert into flats as well, and that my friend is the end of Llandudno as we know it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: wrex on April 26, 2016, 05:03:07 PM
Mr Done bought the station yard for a good price but never got what he wanted so maybe Mr Walldron will have to do the sanme thing.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on April 26, 2016, 06:07:10 PM
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Mr Done bought the station yard for a good price but never got what he wanted so maybe Mr Walldron will have to do the same thing.
Has he actually bought it,?   maybe he only has an option on it.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 27, 2016, 09:57:12 AM
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And once he gets the go ahead to put flats on the promenade that drives a coach and horses through the current planning protection laws and a large number of struggling hotels will put in applications to convert into flats as well, and that my friend is the end of Llandudno as we know it.
I don't know if that's true. We're talking about a new build development, not a conversion, and the residential aspect of the scheme could be regarded as a form of 'enabling development' that is necessary to enable the redevelopment to take place.

Anyway, I wouldn't be averse to seeing some of the struggling hotels converted into good quality apartments - they are probably struggling because of lack of investment over the years and are those the sort of hotels we want representing the town? Fewer, but higher quality, hotels is the way forward in my book.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on April 27, 2016, 10:13:55 AM
There are already blocks of flats on the prom. We have friends living in them.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on April 27, 2016, 01:13:52 PM
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Anyway, I wouldn't be averse to seeing some of the struggling hotels converted into good quality apartments - they are probably struggling because of lack of investment over the years and are those the sort of hotels we want representing the town? Fewer, but higher quality, hotels is the way forward in my book.

On North Parade every Hotel has had massive investment from their owners and are just the sort of Hotels, Guests want to stay in. You only have to look at their Tripadvisor ratings to see the truth in what I say.

What is killing the Businesses is lack of Parking and the Councils steadfast refusal to do anything about it. I talked to an ex submariner only yesterday who had come to Llandudno to try and select a Hotel for a 50th anniversary he's trying to organise for his old shipmates next year. His conclusion he loved the town but found the Parking situation ridiculous and has decided to look elsewhere.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when Prince Edward Square and Happy Valley were redeveloped we lost over 150 Parking Places between Hobsons Corner and the Toll Gate, do you not think that caused a catastrophic knock on effect to the local Hotels? Between that, the age of the owners, ill health and a myriad of other niggles they would be delighted to close their Hotels and convert into Flats
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on April 27, 2016, 04:26:55 PM
Parking in Llandudno is the millstone around the town's neck.

It should be treated as an absolute priority and is in no-way aided by overzealous parking wardens blistering any car which flouts the draconian laws.

Sadly very little progress appears to be on the horizon.

 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bosun on April 27, 2016, 09:29:19 PM
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Parking in Llandudno is the millstone around the town's neck.

It should be treated as an absolute priority and is in no-way aided by overzealous parking wardens blistering any car which flouts the draconian laws.

Sadly very little progress appears to be on the horizon.

 


Have you ever been to a seaside town where there actually IS enough parking? No, neither have I.

Have you ever been to a seaside town where the parking laws were not enforced? I have. Absolute and complete and utter mayhem. Gridlock, frayed tempers, even violence. Take your choice.

P.S. It was Aberystwyth.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on April 27, 2016, 11:03:51 PM
It was chaos in Aberystwyth and they really were glad that the Traffic Wardens were back


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjwqI676K_MAhXqB8AKHeLHDRIQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-13712977&usg=AFQjCNEBjAxaSM0Z-CwXRlrL3aHF24isAQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjwqI676K_MAhXqB8AKHeLHDRIQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-13712977&usg=AFQjCNEBjAxaSM0Z-CwXRlrL3aHF24isAQ)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on April 28, 2016, 07:55:51 AM
Indeed. Many drivers seem to be unable to comprehend simple facts regarding parking (and a depressingly high number appear to be incompetent) but I don't agree the parking regulations are 'draconian'. Yes - Llandudno badly needs more parking but there are solutions to the issue.  Sadly, these all involve money and people seem unwilling to pay.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on April 28, 2016, 10:39:24 AM
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It was chaos in Aberystwyth and they really were glad that the Traffic Wardens were back


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjwqI676K_MAhXqB8AKHeLHDRIQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-13712977&usg=AFQjCNEBjAxaSM0Z-CwXRlrL3aHF24isAQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjwqI676K_MAhXqB8AKHeLHDRIQFggjMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-13712977&usg=AFQjCNEBjAxaSM0Z-CwXRlrL3aHF24isAQ)

The only time that we have been to Aberystwyth we trailed round for ages and not finding anywhere at all to park, gave it up and went to the bird sanctuary 9 miles away. Much more peaceful !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on April 29, 2016, 09:49:23 AM
I see the parking charges on the Prom are going up to £3 from the 1st May. Should residents of Llandudno be given a Free Parking Pass with the hefty Council Tax bill, I wonder?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on April 29, 2016, 03:04:48 PM
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I see the parking charges on the Prom are going up to £3 from the 1st May. Should residents of Llandudno be given a Free Parking Pass with the hefty Council Tax bill, I wonder?
Yes Dave, and this really belongs under either the obstacles to tourism thread, or the CCBC cuts thread.... because it's all part of CCBC's response to having to face less funding, not by cutting any of their bloated management levels, but by fleecing the visitors yet again.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on May 04, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
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What is killing the Businesses is lack of Parking and the Councils steadfast refusal to do anything about it.
Surely the underground car park proposed for the Pavilion development is a good thing then?  8)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on May 04, 2016, 11:59:42 AM
I had my first close look at the site over the weekend and came away confused, this is a complicated project, what is the actual footprint ? the obvious oblong area is easy to see, but who owns the area behind the amusements ?
Access is going to be fun....

" Surely the underground car park proposed for the Pavilion development is a good thing then?"
The site was not as big as I thought it would be, and allowing for the usual forest of cement foundation pillars in underground car parks, I wonder what the capacity would be ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on May 04, 2016, 02:12:53 PM
Judging by the dreadful smell coming out of there as I walked past this morning.....something needs to be done...and quickly. $fan$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on May 05, 2016, 12:04:49 AM
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I had my first close look at the site over the weekend and came away confused, this is a complicated project, what is the actual footprint ? the obvious oblong area is easy to see, but who owns the area behind the amusements ?  Access is going to be fun....

As far as I'm aware that piece of land forms part of the Pavilion, with the Pier having the right of access to get to the back of the Arcade and around to their Fire access doors.   
(From Land Registry Title Sheet WA 689253)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on May 05, 2016, 11:08:42 AM
I've also got a copy of the Land Registry Title Sheet WA 689253 and it looks complicated.    The land is freehold and will now be owned by the Nixons.   The entrance to the Pier Pavilion though was from the Pier and there may be some right of access to the site from the Pier.
As for the underground car park the only access would appear to be that entry that led to Tucson's Amusements but cars would have to cross the Promenade at that point.
It's been 20 years as an eyesore and with all those parties involved it may be a few years longer before things start to progress.   In the meantime that stench etc could be considered an environmental hazard which should be sorted out at the expense of the freeholder
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on August 10, 2016, 10:22:47 AM
Quote
Tom Davidson.
Re: What's Llandudno Like Right Now?         
« Reply #7158 on: Today at 06:54:12 AM »
Quote
Pier pavilion site news.

Don't like the sound of this..sounds as if we are being set up for something we will not like.        &shake&

“When we started looking at this project we first looked at re-creating what was there and then moved to a blend of old and new, but the feedback was that this looked like a ‘mix and match’ and didn’t work.

“The modern approach was supported and this is what we have now tasked the architects with.
“I want this to stand out. I could have been bolder but you have to work within constraints.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modern-building-replace-llandudnos-pier-11728007 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modern-building-replace-llandudnos-pier-11728007)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: spotty dog on August 10, 2016, 10:43:22 AM
I am reliable told the plans drawn up ages ago where a cruse liner lookalike with tiered decks and veranda, and all this: old and new: is smoke and screens
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on August 10, 2016, 05:07:01 PM
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Don't like the sound of this..sounds as if we are being set up for something we will not like.        &shake&

Venue Cymru mark 2?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Yelboh on August 10, 2016, 05:48:48 PM
I suspect there is a long way to go on this before we get to see so much as a foundation being laid - if we ever get that far.   It is such a prominent, and therefore controversial site, that everyone has a view, and I feel whatever is finally proposed to go there will displease so many that we may end up back where we are now with the rat infested pit, and that will be the worst result.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on August 10, 2016, 08:19:40 PM
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everyone has a view, and I feel whatever is finally proposed to go there will displease so many that we may end up back where we are now with the rat infested pit, and that will be the worst result.
   

No Rat infested pit this time Yelboh as we have just been informed "as a Courtesy" that Heavy Lorries will be used to clear the site during August, from 7am until 10am and again from 4pm until 7pm
I wouldn't like to have to use the pavement up to the Grand during those times.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on August 11, 2016, 06:22:22 PM
When does this clearance begin BlongB?
A courtesy letter eh?  The pier manager certainly wasn't aware of this development when I spoke to him today, unless the letter went elsewhere?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on August 13, 2016, 11:28:27 PM
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When does this clearance begin BlongB?
A courtesy letter eh?  The pier manager certainly wasn't aware of this development when I spoke to him today, unless the letter went elsewhere?

The site owners representative called round to tell all the Hotel owners on this end of North Parade what was going to happen in the near future. Then at 7:00 this morning the small mechanical digger they had been using was replaced with one twice the size so the clearance will start in the very near future Fester. I am surprised the Pier wasn't informed as well, that's no way to get on with your neighbour
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on August 15, 2016, 04:07:57 PM
The clearance has started up at the Grand Hotel end of the site. So far a large volume of water, several feet deep, has been discovered under the bit of ground the Grand borrowed and in the other corner a large pool  of thick black oil is slowly oozing into the daylight. I am amazed all of this rubbish wasn't cleared away back in 1995 as part of the original site clearance.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on August 24, 2016, 08:18:23 AM
It does sound a little ominous but at least it's progress.

Looking forward to seeing the new designs.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on August 24, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
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The clearance has started up at the Grand Hotel end of the site. So far a large volume of water, several feet deep, has been discovered under the bit of ground the Grand borrowed and in the other corner a large pool  of thick black oil is slowly oozing into the daylight.
Maybe they will be drilling for oil on the site?  :laugh:

I wonder where that oil came from?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on August 26, 2016, 05:36:18 PM
Ongoing clearance work:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on August 26, 2016, 05:37:04 PM
Ongoing clearance work:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on August 26, 2016, 06:11:30 PM
Does The Grand look as if it is leaning a bit.............. :o     ;)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on August 26, 2016, 07:40:43 PM
The Grand need to get their hot water sorted out. Two reports from friends that they have had NO hot water when they stayed there.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on August 26, 2016, 07:56:43 PM
I suspect that's merely one of the things that they need to sort.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2016, 12:50:35 PM
Progress made at 'eyesore' Llandudno Pier Pavilion site
Published on 01 September 2016 by Steve Craddock

INVESTIGATIONS at the site of Llandudno’s Pier Pavilion are underway, with plans being drawn up for a modern multi-purpose development to replace the long-standing ‘eyesore’.

Developer Alan Waldron, who acquired the site in April this year, told the Pioneer site investigations have so far uncovered a large pool beneath the ground which may have been used for swimming or boating.

It is expected the pool will contribute to the development’s underground car parking offer, which Mr Waldron hopes can relieve some of the pressure on other parking zones across the town.

He said: “We’ve exposed the old pool so we’ve got this extra layer that we were lookin for. I think it’s important that we get as much car parking in here as possible.

“Underground is all car parking, we’ll have a couple of floors of commercial which will include some restaurants and above that we’ll have some residential.

“More and more people are coming into Llandudno.

“I think there’s room for a couple of high quality restaurants here so I think that’s what we’ll be providing.

“Obviously it’s getting rid of this eyesore I think that is the big thing.”

Mr Waldron, who added he plans to continue exposing the pool over the coming weeks, said he is not far away from deciding on an image for the site – which has remained uncleared since being destroyed by a fire in 1994.

He said: “It’s no good me coming out public with some images because it’s going to change - we may as well wait until we have the final images and we’re not far off that.

“It is going to be modern.

“There’s been copper mining on the Orme for 4000 years so we’re looking to bring some copper element into it.”

http://m.northwalespioneer.co.uk/mobile/mnews/166121/progress-made-at-eyesore-llandudno-pier-pavilion-site.aspx (http://m.northwalespioneer.co.uk/mobile/mnews/166121/progress-made-at-eyesore-llandudno-pier-pavilion-site.aspx)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2016, 12:52:26 PM
As an aside to the above article, the former Swimming Pool in the Pier Pavilion basement that has just been uncovered last saw the light of day in 1901:

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Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on September 01, 2016, 01:27:49 PM
Dave, for some reason I can't seen that image, would you mind emailing it to me? I'm at tom.davidson@trinitymirror.com
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2016, 01:46:19 PM
Email sent
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on September 01, 2016, 05:20:09 PM
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Progress made at 'eyesore' Llandudno Pier Pavilion site
Published on 01 September 2016 by Steve Craddock

site investigations have so far uncovered a large pool beneath the ground which may have been used for swimming or boating


The initial statement makes it sound as though he was surprised to find the swimming pool. Surely he knew the history of the site before he bought it? With the previous flooding issues I doubt I'd park my car on that level!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2016, 09:55:08 AM
I can't see the swimming pool picture either?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Nemesis on September 02, 2016, 10:15:52 AM
No nor can I.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SDQ on September 02, 2016, 10:45:04 AM
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I can't see the swimming pool picture either?


It's not actually a picture of the pool but of a press cutting about it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2016, 11:22:06 AM
Therefore you can see it, but I still can't
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Cambrian on September 02, 2016, 11:56:54 AM
From memory, the swimming pool was used by the dodgems which were part of the Tuson's arcade.  The walls of the dodgem area were white tiled just like a pool of that vintage, there may have been a disused pool or reservoir at a lower level which was something to do with the Baths Hotel. I am sure the developers would have been aware of the dodgem area so the comments may well relate to the lower level.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: born2run on September 02, 2016, 12:37:51 PM
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Therefore you can see it, but I still can't

I can too   :P
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: SteveH on September 02, 2016, 12:51:22 PM
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As an aside to the above article, the former Swimming Pool in the Pier Pavilion basement that has just been uncovered last saw the light of day in 1901:


Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2016, 02:37:52 PM
Tut tut, even in Victorian times they couldn't spell properly.   &shake& &shake&
 :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Tom Davidson on September 06, 2016, 07:40:59 AM
We have spell check so not sure what our excuse is sometimes...  :roll:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on September 06, 2016, 07:51:04 AM
:-)  One problem seems to be that if you write something yourself you tend not to see the errors.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: DaveR on September 06, 2016, 08:30:56 AM
Another Press Snippet that i found:

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Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Blongb on November 01, 2016, 11:22:00 AM
A Design Concept for the Pier Pavilion redevelopment is available for inspection in Llandudno Library. I reserve my right to comment at this stage, as it is only a suggestion so far.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 01, 2016, 12:47:53 PM
It's... HUGE!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Bosun on November 01, 2016, 12:55:25 PM
Is this the old planning adage of - Submit plans for something absolutely grotesque knowing that it will be refused and then submit plans for something simply awful that will seem virtually acceptable after the first application.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 01, 2016, 03:34:11 PM
Bosun, very interesting that you should say that,because Dave R and I had an interesting time poring over the plans today..... and that's very similar to something Dave concluded.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Ian on November 01, 2016, 04:03:13 PM
It's a fairly common tactic.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Fester on November 01, 2016, 04:32:58 PM
Remember Mr Dickens wanted to open a cafe?  ...he was refused, so he threatened to open a sex shop.   
Very soon after, he opened his cafe!

Since then, we've had three and half million cafes open in town!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2016, 05:21:00 PM
This thing has happened before and never amounted to anything so it'll be interesting to see how this goes and what interest Mostyn Estates has in it.

I passed another of Mostyn Estates eyesores today and noticed that no work had been carried out on the site.  It's the first of November today and with Christmas coming along quickly it doesn't give a lot of time to carry out any work.   I'm still confident though that Mr Hillier will keep his promise and have the work started one way or another.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 01, 2016, 07:47:09 PM
Ah, the Pier Pavilion site, the perfect place from which to launch some spare fireworks that may be left kicking around...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Biggest Eyesore....the Pier Pavilion site
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2016, 09:41:05 PM
Or a bonfire, after all there has been one there before.        WWW
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 02, 2016, 08:40:32 AM
My view on the proposed Pavilion replacement is that, whilst the internal design/configuration is great, the external mass of the building appears a little too large for that site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DVT on November 02, 2016, 09:14:38 AM
Hardly in keeping with the rest of Llandudno's buildings, apart from Venue Cymru - surely they should make it look outwardly as though it fitted in with the Victorian theme of the town, accepting that internally it needs to be modern.  Wouldn't have thought that would be too difficult to achieve.

Considering the uproar about someone painting their hotel pink, or the windmills far out at sea, then surely this is the worst change of appearance for the town ever.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on November 02, 2016, 09:22:12 AM
It resembles a 1970's inner city car park. It's vile, out of keeping with the town and overbears the area. With the furore this will cause, it will be withdrawn and then we'll see what they really think will be accepted. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Nemesis on November 02, 2016, 10:34:07 AM
Looks a bit like a large ship to me, but I think that some of the ideas look too flimsy to withstand our winter storms.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on November 02, 2016, 10:48:11 AM
It eclipses the Grand quite a lot and looks - as has been noted - simply too large for the site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 02, 2016, 11:51:56 AM
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It eclipses the Grand quite a lot...

Which isn't necessarily bad thing!

However other than reinstating the ironwork at ground level it's just a standard monstrosity you could see in any town or city. Llandudno deserves something that respects the Victorian heritage. It could be so much better clad in stone, the windows shaped along the lines of the old Pavilion and the balcony railings reflecting the ironwork below. However we all know this project had been rubber stamped long before some young partially-sighted whipper-snapper was tasked to come up with something as modern and money-making as possible.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 02, 2016, 12:22:29 PM
Mr. Waldron has publicly stated he needs to build 54 luxury apartments to make the development a viable project. He is not proposing to build any social or affordable apartments within the project and he is not proposing to met the current requirement to provide enough parking places within a development of that size to meet its needs. He has also proposed to have street parking on the upper part of North Parade removed (25 spaces x £4 per day = a potential loss of revenue of £700 a week to the Council).

All of this and much, much, more is very well known to Mr. Waldron and his architects, so I can only conclude he  is a chancer and along with his cronies will need to be scrutinised very closely.

Yes the Pavilion Site is an eyesore and does need to be redeveloped but not at any price. It must meet the needs of the many and not be just for the affordability of the few.    &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Greyhound on November 02, 2016, 01:13:04 PM
I think the design is wholly inappropriate for the site. The massing is overbearing and the vertical emphasis is wrong. However, I don't think sticking some plastic 'Victorian' detailing is needed either, that would just be a pastiche.

I think something along the lines of Marine Court in St. Leonards (google image it, tried to upload an image but couldn't) would work well. Art Deco in inspiration but pared-down and with a definite horizontal emphasis in terms of lines. The building should also be one storey lower and be stepped down towards the Golden Goose end by about two stories. Similar type apartments are being built in London today, see here: http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/new-homes/london/battersea/vista-chelsea-bridge (http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/new-homes/london/battersea/vista-chelsea-bridge)

 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 02, 2016, 03:24:36 PM
The Pier Owner is unhappy about the Pavilion scheme, says he may have to charge an admission fee to the pier if his takings are affected...

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-owner-could-charge-12116244 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-owner-could-charge-12116244)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Tom Davidson on November 02, 2016, 04:22:55 PM
I think it's ghastly but suspect others will be right, a not-so-ghastly application will emerge or these plans will be radically toned down.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on November 02, 2016, 04:40:45 PM
That the same Alan Waldron who was behind the awful souless boring and uninspiring Deganwy Quay development is behind this development is heartsinkingly depressing. It must have taken a lot of thought and imagination to make a development with staggeringly beautiful views opposite a World Heritage site into a concrete box where not even NASA could find any atmosphere. It doesn't bode well.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Quiggs on November 02, 2016, 04:44:21 PM
It also looks like the 'Camera Obscura'  will be 'ehh' Obscured ? _))*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 02, 2016, 05:05:31 PM
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The Pier Owner is unhappy about the Pavilion scheme, says he may have to charge an admission fee to the pier if his takings are affected...

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-owner-could-charge-12116244 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-owner-could-charge-12116244)

If the payment booths go back to their original position before the arcade wouldn't that mean that the residents and any potential shoppers visiting the new monstrosity would have to pay to get in, unless they have a back entrance?

I note we also haven't been given a rear view of this carbuncle but going by the height everything behind will be left in darkness. Also it looks like all the side windows of the Grand will be blocked as well.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 02, 2016, 05:20:07 PM
The rear view, and all views, are available to see in Llandudno library.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: BMD on November 03, 2016, 09:59:09 AM
Truly awful. One of the most architecturally insensitive designs I've ever seen, which is saying something. If the final building looks anything like that, I'll regard it as a crime. I've not followed the progress of this very much, but I hope there's public uproar.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on November 03, 2016, 06:25:31 PM
I agree with all the negatives, a monstrosity!
If there is a need to sell 54 flats what is the development cost I wonder? I would have thought that they will be seeking to sell them at a similar price as those that were recently completed at Rhos Point and they were selling for around £350K. Personally I wouldn't want to live above the pier with the associated noise that goes on down below at any price never mind that sort of money.
Mind you I had a peep at the Berkeley Group link above and at nearly £2m you only get tiny bedrooms in a 3 bedroom apartment and only one ensuite.
Aren't we lucky to live in Llandudno!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Nemesis on November 03, 2016, 09:19:23 PM
Mc Carthy and Stone seem to command some pretty high prices for their development on Gloddaeth when you compare them to others in the area. Especially as on some nights it gets like a race track on there. !
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 04, 2016, 09:24:42 AM
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All of this and much, much, more is very well known to Mr. Waldron and his architects, so I can only conclude he  is a chancer and along with his cronies will need to be scrutinised very closely.

Yes the Pavilion Site is an eyesore and does need to be redeveloped but not at any price. It must meet the needs of the many and not be just for the affordability of the few.    &shake&

That's very interesting Blongb and quite relevant but I don't suppose the CCBC will ask to see any proof that the potential developers have the required finance in place to develop the site.    Neither I expect will the CCBC  look into the credibility of the people involved just in case there is any pattern to  failed companies.
As for the CCBC they are obliged to consider affordable property when applications for a large development is made and this should be no exception.
What made me smile though was that one of the interested parties claims want all things "Victorian" but as you can see from the proposed building it  appears to be only when it suits them
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 04, 2016, 05:27:27 PM
Affordable or social housing?  - all very laudable and desirable.

But in a prestigious sea front location?  Forget about it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 04, 2016, 10:49:09 PM
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Affordable or social housing?  - all very laudable and desirable.

But in a prestigious sea front location?  Forget about it.

I'll agree that the property should be of a high standard to justify the prestigious sea front location but there should still be a mixture of  1, 2 and 3 bedroom apartments within the complex and as I haven't looked at the plans I don't know whether that has been done.
I don't know if affordable housing was a condition of the Deganwy Quay development that Mr Waldron was involved in but I do know that it was a condition in the Conwy Marina development.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on November 05, 2016, 03:56:02 PM
The Conwy County Borough Council Land Delivery Plan states, to ensure the borough is fully equipped to deliver affordable housing through the planning system, the LDP affordable housing policy seeks provision by various percentages according to the housing market area and Llandudno is 35% of the dwellings on site. It isn't a case of just saying you don't want to supply them, if you want planning permission you have to. In exceptional circumstances the Council may accept off-site provision were the developer provides the affordable housing on another less desirable site, as it would be cheaper for them.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2016, 08:25:13 AM
Thanks Meleri for confirming the policy of the CCBC's     Land Delivery Plans.    I was aware of them a few years ago when I spoke to the Planning Officer but wasn't sure if they had been altered or not since then.        $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 06, 2016, 11:36:38 AM
Comments on FB are saying that objections to the plans have to be lodged before 20th. Nov?   I thought these were concept ideas prior to planning for discussion.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on November 06, 2016, 12:23:11 PM
The display in Llandudno Library is part of a consultation not a planning application. They are just asking for comments for or against, with the last day being November 20th. If there are a large amount of people against it they are going to have to go back to the drawing board. If not then I dare say they will put a formal application in to the Council for planning permission.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 06, 2016, 01:25:45 PM
Thankyou M.  Can you tell me the best way to lodge my objections please.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on November 06, 2016, 04:59:59 PM
If you want to object before it goes to planning send your objection letter to the Agent who is Creu Architecture, Diamond Buildings, 6 Highgate, Denbigh, LL163LE. You can also send another letter or e-mail to Conwy County Borough Council Planning Dept after the Planning Application has been lodged, those comments could be put on the Planning Application site for public viewing. New planning applications are usually advertised in The North Wales Weekly News or you can check the weekly list on CCBC planning applications portal. Good Luck  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2016, 08:01:43 PM
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The display in Llandudno Library is part of a consultation not a planning application. They are just asking for comments for or against, with the last day being November 20th. If there are a large amount of people against it they are going to have to go back to the drawing board. If not then I dare say they will put a formal application in to the Council for planning permission.

They are obviously just testing the water out to see what reaction they are likely to get for this prime site development.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 07, 2016, 10:50:53 PM
We'll, actually.... the opposite seems to be true.

I met with the venerable Dave R today, and he had read in detail a massive pack of documents, (which looked expensive to me), which outlined the process the planners had been through to reach this point.
I have to say that many designs have been proposed and discounted, many were terrible, but some were rather excellent and very much in keeping with the old pavilion building.
I find it amazing that the input of several responsible authorities can actually leave us with a construction much worse than the developer originally wanted to create!

Go and take a look, it's a real eye opener.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2016, 10:04:31 AM
The developer does seem to have been very busy in the 14 months since the site has been acquired, so it should be well worth the visit.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 08, 2016, 10:20:01 AM
I recently saw some photos of the different designs  mentioned  by Fester above, I think on FB but could not copy them, and now I cannot find the link .....sorry.......perhaps someone else can have a go  finding them. ££$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 08, 2016, 10:55:05 AM
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The developer does seem to have been very busy in the 14 months since the site has been acquired, so it should be well worth the visit.

If you come over to have a look Hugo you are more than welcome to call in and we'll show you a view of the site from above  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2016, 11:27:27 AM
This is part of what he actually said

He told the Daily Post he hoped to create an "iconic building" but said the development will be in keeping with the surroundings.
He added: "The scheme will be in keeping with the Pavilion that was there before but it needs to be bigger than it was to make it viable.
"It will not be as high as the Grand [hotel] though and we don’t intend to extend to the south west of the former building.
It will start with car parking, and then commercial and residential units."

The picture shows what he hopes to deliver
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2016, 11:32:05 AM
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The developer does seem to have been very busy in the 14 months since the site has been acquired, so it should be well worth the visit.

If you come over to have a look Hugo you are more than welcome to call in and we'll show you a view of the site from above  $good$

Thanks very much for your kind offer Blongb but I did see it from the road behind you and I don't really know what to say that I can repeat on here.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 09, 2016, 06:48:43 PM
During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1 (https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1) and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on November 09, 2016, 08:25:14 PM
Yes very interesting reading ,the guy who owns the site every time he put plans in to the council they were knocked back ,why Ccbc couldn't work with him to sort the mess out ,the plans I managed to see a few years ago could have worked with a few tweaks ,you are right this guy is a chancer he's put these plans out But has he got enough investors or would it end up a cheap build like Deganwy quay .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 10:30:27 PM
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services.

Warwick Property Services Ltd was dissolved on 21st Feb 2012 so I wonder who really owns the property, is it a new company or an individual(s) ?        The more you look into it the more farcical it becomes.   CCBC should be doing the same background checks because this thing could easily fall flat on its face.
Did the person you spoke to say what Mostyn Estates involvement in all of this is?   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 10, 2016, 09:09:42 AM
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1 (https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1) and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
The current owner of the Pavilion site is Maurice & Donna Nixon - their names are on the Land Registry report.

Your comments about Mr Waldron show a lack of understanding of finance. Developers such as Mr Waldron set up a company for each development they undertake. In the case of the Pavilion site, it is Quay Developments 2016 Ltd. Once the developments are completed, the profits are distributed to the shareholders and the company is either dissolved or left as a shell company. It's impossible to judge a person's success/wealth just by reference to public records, as you have no way of knowing his level of private assets.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 10, 2016, 09:15:26 AM
As we thought, the design of the new Pavilion building is actually the result of input from CCBC, CADW and the Design Commission for Wales. The Architects/Developer originally favoured a design more reminiscent of the original building. Current planning practice prefers a clearly contemporary new build, rather than an attempt to emulate a Victorian design.


Modernist Pier Pavilion development is building Llandudno can be 'proud of'

The architects behind the new Pier Pavilion development have defended the modernist scheme saying they aimed to provide a building Llandudno could be proud of.

The old Victorian structure burnt down more than 20 years ago and the site has lain empty since then – a blot on the landscape of the Victorian seaside resort

But this spring Alan Waldron bought the site for around £1m and last month revealed images of a planned new scheme.

The modern design and size of the development attracted a strong reaction locally with many voicing concerns over the building.

The design was created by Creu Architecture, based in Denbigh, who defended their decision not to go down the line of trying to recreate a similar building to the former Pier Pavilion.

Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales.


He said: “Due to site constraints resulting in abnormally high anticipated development costs, to prove viable the brief stated that the scheme accommodation was to comprise a mixed use scheme of below ground parking, commercial restaurant floor space with residential accommodation above.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.


“Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.

“Design development thereafter, following the footprint of the original Pavilion, retained the emphasis upon a light appearance with extensive use of glazing and introduced the use of copper detailing (referencing back to the history of the great Orme) with articulation of the elevation conveying a modernist architectural language.

“This modernist approach is the current scheme presented for comment.

“As the architects for the development of the former Pavilion site in Llandudno, we at Creu Architecture feel privileged to have been given this opportunity and responsibility.

“We also welcome the opportunity within the Planning process that allows us to consult openly with the public about the proposed design.

"Architecture is a process from its inception, through design, to completion.

“The scheme presented for public consultation is a snapshot in the journey of the development of the former Pavilion site in Llandudno and our aim is to provide a building that Llandudno will be proud of and will be used by locals and visitors alike for years to come.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modernist-pier-pavilion-development-building-12152893 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modernist-pier-pavilion-development-building-12152893)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 10, 2016, 10:27:17 AM
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As we thought, the design of the new Pavilion building is actually the result of input from CCBC, CADW and the Design Commission for Wales. The Architects/Developer originally favoured a design more reminiscent of the original building. Current planning practice prefers a clearly contemporary new build, rather than an attempt to emulate a Vicstorian design.

Modernist Pier Pavilion development is building Llandudno can be 'proud of'
The architects behind the new Pier Pavilion development have defended the modernist scheme saying they aimed to provide a building Llandudno could be proud of.

Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales.

He said: “Due to site constraints resulting in abnormally high anticipated development costs, to prove viable the brief stated that the scheme accommodation was to comprise a mixed use scheme of below ground parking, commercial restaurant floor space with residential accommodation above.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

“Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing.
[/quote)


I cannot believe that those involved recommended a building such as this, in such a landmark site as this for Llandudno, and certainly nothing we could be proud of....the statements above appear to be one sided, in favour of the developer, and without thought for the end result.

This is a disgrace.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2016, 11:42:55 AM
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1 (https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1) and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
The current owner of the Pavilion site is Maurice & Donna Nixon - their names are on the Land Registry report.

Your comments about Mr Waldron show a lack of understanding of finance. Developers such as Mr Waldron set up a company for each development they undertake. In the case of the Pavilion site, it is Quay Developments 2016 Ltd. Once the developments are completed, the profits are distributed to the shareholders and the company is either dissolved or left as a shell company. It's impossible to judge a person's success/wealth just by reference to public records, as you have no way of knowing his level of private assets.

These companies are also set up to protect the shareholders.  They often have no assets other than a nominal amount which can be just £100.00  and that way the company has a limited liability if it goes into liquidation voluntary or otherwise.     That way the creditors, who may include  unpaid contractors have no way of recovering the money as it is a company liability and not the responsibility of the directors who actually run the business.
One common trend is for the directors to own the property and the company then leases the property from them.  That way if the company goes into liquidation the director still owns the property and in fact could even be a creditor in his or her own limited company 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 10, 2016, 02:03:24 PM
Hope this works, the photos , I mentioned earlier.      Sorry not very big......

But these designs are worth consideration.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 10, 2016, 02:51:47 PM
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During discussions I had this afternoon it transpired Mr Waldron does not own the Pier Pavilion Site but has merely taken out a 1 year option to buy the site from the current owners Warwickshire Property Services. As I said in an earlier post the man is a chancer. Look him up on Companies House website https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1 (https://companycheck.co.uk/director/905834072/ALAN--WALDRON/financials?page=1) and check his Total Current Liabilities against his Total Current Assets and you will soon see he needs this redevelopment far more than we do.
The current owner of the Pavilion site is Maurice & Donna Nixon - their names are on the Land Registry report.

Your comments about Mr Waldron show a lack of understanding of finance. Developers such as Mr Waldron set up a company for each development they undertake. In the case of the Pavilion site, it is Quay Developments 2016 Ltd. Once the developments are completed, the profits are distributed to the shareholders and the company is either dissolved or left as a shell company. It's impossible to judge a person's success/wealth just by reference to public records, as you have no way of knowing his level of private assets.

Maurice and Donna Nixon have registered Companies at  11 Castle Street, Worcester, the same address as I quoted for Warwickshire Property Services, the ownership was merely transferred. Like you said I have little understanding of the myriad workings of these developers but what I do know is that unless we protest in the strongest possible way against this revolting carbuncle proposal, it will become a matching monstrosity to the school on Bodafon Fields and then both ends of the town will be ruined
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: PhilMick on November 10, 2016, 03:43:24 PM
Is the pier area in the general conservation area of the prom?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2016, 04:32:12 PM
 Like you said I have little understanding of the myriad workings of these developers but what I do know is that unless we protest in the strongest possible way against this revolting carbuncle proposal, it will become a matching monstrosity to the school on Bodafon Fields and then both ends of the town will be ruined

You don't need a wealth of knowledge to understand how these developers work, wasn't the school built higher than the planning application allowed them to do?    All they had to do was apply for retrospective planning and then  it was granted so what is to stop them doing it again with the Pier Pavillion?
Mr Waldron is quoted as saying the Pier Pavillion won't be as high as the Grand Hotel, but if it did have a pitched roof then it would actually be higher.
One of the buzz words branded about nowadays in these building applications is "viable" and these reputable developers seemed to have altered the meaning of the word.    What they mean is that there isn't enough profit in it for them.
Take the Penmorfa Hotel for example they had planning permission granted with the condition that the original house be incorporated into the new building.   Then they left it for years until they came back and said that the section of the building that they had neglected was not viable for development.
Now according to the link posted by Greyhound they are coming back for permission to build 22 more apartments on the site
I also expect the Castle Hotel to come back with some viable comment

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 10, 2016, 05:07:19 PM
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Hope this works, the photos , I mentioned earlier.      Sorry not very big......

But these designs are worth consideration.

Wow what an improvement but as these designs are so sensible there's no way the Council would approve them! Hurry now to get your photos of the Pier and the Great Orme before the view is ruined forever. I find it hard to work out who is the puppet and who is the puppet master with CCBC and Mostyn Estates.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on November 10, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
CCBC didn't really listen to protests, much, when they built Venue Cymru.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 11, 2016, 12:32:24 AM
I have to reiterate, before the issue flies off on too many tangents..
This proposed design of build is not what the developer wanted to create, it is what he has been pushed towards to satisfy the regulatory authorities.

In other words, it is highly likely to go ahead, despite his attempts to be more traditional and conservative in his ambitions!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on November 11, 2016, 07:26:58 AM
His original designs look remarkably in keeping with the resort.  So if CCBC has said 'appropriate designs are not what is wanted' it seems legitimate to ask on whose behalf are they speaking?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 11, 2016, 10:56:55 AM
It's a shame the "developer" has put his profit before principal and bowed to CCBC's demands. If he really wanted to provide something iconic and suitable for the location he should have stuck to his guns rather than caving in so quickly. So basically CCBC are now providing hideous designs for developers to follow to the letter. Bet it has even got plastic windows...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 11, 2016, 11:39:05 AM
I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.






Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2016, 09:32:55 AM
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

So am I Steve, but that statement they made ( copied below)  would be an interesting story for any journalist to follow up.    Just who are these nameless people who have given rise to this proposed building?   Then those people  could be approached to see what directions were actually given and their reasons for doing so.
At least it would clear up whether that bold statement is true or just the developers version of events,

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 12, 2016, 05:39:20 PM
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

So am I Steve, but that statement they made ( copied below)  would be an interesting story for any journalist to follow up.    Just who are these nameless people who have given rise to this proposed building?   Then those people  could be approached to see what directions were actually given and their reasons for doing so.
At least it would clear up whether that bold statement is true or just the developers version of events,

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

We have written to the developers and ask them for those very names Hugo and will publish them "IF" we get a response.

Also today Mr. Waldron has had a little set back as the Pier have cleared back the entrance to the site which revealed the original steps and boundary railing line now clearly marked marked with a very large new fence. He is going to need a crane to lift his excavator out and to get all his rubble removed. Site access is no longer an easy proposition.

When I asked what the pier thought of Mr Waldrons proposal to put kiosks on the ground floor of his development to replace the wooden kiosks the Pier has there currently I was told he had no chance
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 12, 2016, 05:58:24 PM
So that is what was going on yesterday when we were passing.

No doubt, the pier owner and his army of about a dozen men had permission to access that area and carry out the work that they did.

Anyway, when I viewed the plans for the new kiosks recently in the library, they were incorporated into the new development and to the rear of the existing wooden kiosks leaving me to believe the pier owner must be cooperating with the developer.

Why on earth would the developer include new kiosks if there will never be any access to them?

By the way, the kiosk plans were for the first floor because I seem to recall there will be a car park on the ground floor with an entrance from the old Tuson's pathway.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 12, 2016, 06:20:45 PM
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Also today Mr. Waldron has had a little set back as the Pier have cleared back the entrance to the site which revealed the original steps and boundary railing line now clearly marked marked with a very large new fence. He is going to need a crane to lift his excavator out and to get all his rubble removed. Site access is no longer an easy proposition.

When I asked what the pier thought of Mr Waldrons proposal to put kiosks on the ground floor of his development to replace the wooden kiosks the Pier has there currently I was told he had no chance

Good for him! I'd far rather the Pier survives and thrives than that carbuncle becomes a huge blot on the landscape. At least the Pier owner actually owns it unlike Mr Waldron's claims to own the Pavilion site. If I were the Pier owner I'd be building more than large fences to mark the boundary of all of his property.

I thought the plans for the Pavilion site said that the commercial element in the development would be cafe/restaurant based. You'll probably only be able to get the best views of Llandudno looking out from their windows as that way you won't be able to see their awful building.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 12, 2016, 06:36:13 PM
The plans do include a restaurant.

From memory, it is on the second floor.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2016, 06:58:45 PM
Blongb,  good luck with the letter to the developers asking for the names of those people who have given clear directions on this proposed building.     I don't expect that you'll get the answers you want though as this type of thing is not always open and honest.
IF  you do get a reply I expect that it will be something like this "  at this stage of the negotiation we cannot make a comment on your request"
Perhaps I'm too cynical but I've seen it all before in the town.
If you don't get any satisfaction from your letter then I would suggest that your local Councillor or MP should be approached as it is so important to the town and townsfolk.



Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: PhilMick on November 13, 2016, 12:55:30 PM
Does the Freedom of Information Act apply in these circumstances?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 13, 2016, 01:21:44 PM
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If you don't get any satisfaction from your letter then I would suggest that your local Councillor or MP should be approached as it is so important to the town and townsfolk.

Agreed and done on both counts.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2016, 04:17:04 PM
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If you don't get any satisfaction from your letter then I would suggest that your local Councillor or MP should be approached as it is so important to the town and townsfolk.

Agreed and done on both counts.

I suggested that because a PLC was proposing a development where we live and we approached our local Councillors and the MP and AM and we found them all very helpful.     Their action certainly kept the CCBC on their toes.


PhilMick,      If you ask for that on the FOI  Act  I suspect that the reply will be that they cannot disclose it while the matter is under discussion.
Might be worth a try though to do it  just to remind them of the strength of public feeling.
I'm awaiting a reply under the FOI Act on another eyesore in the town and am looking forward to the reply from CCBC
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 13, 2016, 09:20:49 PM
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Anyway, when I viewed the plans for the new kiosks recently in the library, they were incorporated into the new development and to the rear of the existing wooden kiosks leaving me to believe the pier owner must be cooperating with the developer.

Why on earth would the developer include new kiosks if there will never be any access to them?

By the way, the kiosk plans were for the first floor because I seem to recall there will be a car park on the ground floor with an entrance from the old Tuson's pathway.

You missed the little note by the Kiosks, on the proposed plans Bri. It said to be negotiated. Having talked to Adam Williams yesterday he was furious about that part of the design and said there was no way he would give up his wooden huts to give Mr waldron access to the pier. It just isn't going to happen. The proposed new kiosks would have been sited at Pier level, the Car Parking level you saw would be below in the pit.

You mentioned in a later post the plans include a restaurant. In fact it includes 2 restaurants over 2 floors each and Mr Williams said they were non starters as they would contravene codicil put on the Pavilion site by the Pier when the two were first split to protect the Pier.

Mr Waldron would have done well to have negotiated with Mr Williams before he disclosed his plans for discussion.   >>>

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 14, 2016, 09:23:27 AM
I am very surprised to learn the developer and pier owner never met to discuss the developer's proposals.

I am also surprised the developer has not arranged to have a public meeting in Venue Cymru some time this month whilst his plans are out for public consultation.

On the subject of the kiosks, it makes sense for the new development to benefit from access to the pier if only for a fire exit otherwise the residents of over fifty apartments and the occupants of one or two cafe/restaurants will have to rely solely on exiting into North Parade.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2016, 10:12:24 AM
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Anyway, when I viewed the plans for the new kiosks recently in the library, they were incorporated into the new development and to the rear of the existing wooden kiosks leaving me to believe the pier owner must be cooperating with the developer.

Why on earth would the developer include new kiosks if there will never be any access to them?

By the way, the kiosk plans were for the first floor because I seem to recall there will be a car park on the ground floor with an entrance from the old Tuson's pathway.

You missed the little note by the Kiosks, on the proposed plans Bri. It said to be negotiated. Having talked to Adam Williams yesterday he was furious about that part of the design and said there was no way he would give up his wooden huts to give Mr waldron access to the pier. It just isn't going to happen. The proposed new kiosks would have been sited at Pier level, the Car Parking level you saw would be below in the pit.

You mentioned in a later post the plans include a restaurant. In fact it includes 2 restaurants over 2 floors each and Mr Williams said they were non starters as they would contravene codicil put on the Pavilion site by the Pier when the two were first split to protect the Pier.

Mr Waldron would have done well to have negotiated with Mr Williams before he disclosed his plans for discussion.   >>>
The proposed shops in the Pavilion complex are situated there because there is a covenant in the 1984 transfer documents that grants the owner of the Pavilion access to the pier along its frontage.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2016, 10:15:12 AM
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We have written to the developers and ask them for those very names Hugo and will publish them "IF" we get a response.
Why bother writing, when they are clearly named in the Daily Post article?

"Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales."

 :roll:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2016, 10:50:05 AM
Just to pick up your points on your last two postings Dave

The first one   "The proposed shops in the Pavilion complex are situated there because there is a covenant in the 1984 transfer documents that grants the owner of the Pavilion access to the pier along its frontage."
Some years ago I had a face to face meeting with the Chief Planning Officer as the property we were objecting about had a Deed of Covenant on it and was told  that " the Deed of Covenant was not worth the paper it was written on"   This statement was repeated over and over again by other members of the Planning Department so what is different about this one?

The second point     "Why bother writing, when they are clearly named in the Daily Post article?"       I and some others must have missed out on seeing exactly who was clearly named in that article.    I can see an allegation of consultation with  Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales but if that were true then the public should be entitled to see what has been said by whom and to whom.
But if you wanted to take it up with the alleged offices wouldn't it be prudent to have contact details so that your enquiry could be dealt with promptly.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2016, 11:18:08 AM
The value of a Covenant is dependent upon the financial means of the person to enforce it legally...  ;)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 14, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

Hugos quote above......an allegation of consultation with Conwys planning and conservation chiefs and CADW..........
Thats exactly the word  allegation, thier statement does not make sense, there is nothing about the new plan that makes sense.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2016, 11:42:57 AM
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I am at a loss as to why CCBC would be worried over build costs, and why they (CCBC. CADW) would consider this design over the original, and still think this whole thing is slanted towards the developer.

Hugos quote above......an allegation of consultation with Conwys planning and conservation chiefs and CADW..........
Thats exactly the word  allegation, thier statement does not make sense, there is nothing about the new plan that makes sense.
It makes perfect sense if you understand planning policy. It is not considered acceptable under current Planning Policy to create a pastiche of a Victorian building if it is a new build. Planners prefer to see a clear differentiation between old and new buildings, so actively encourage a modern design for any new construction. If the original Pavilion building had survived, Planners would want to see it restored to its original design. What they don't want are new buildings masquerading as old buildings.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 14, 2016, 12:01:52 PM
That makes a bit of sense, but not in this case Llandudno prides itself on its Victorian heritage, especially the Prom. and the original designs were well worth consideration, but I suspect not profitable enough, now they are trying to push this concrete pile on to us.

Take the case of the Tudno, if that has to be replaced with a modern look, we might not like it, but it would be understandable, but the Pier site is to important, for now and the future, in this case profit needs to be secondary, like Colwyn Bay Pier once its gone its gone, and the Pavillion site once its up.........
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
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It makes perfect sense if you understand planning policy. It is not considered acceptable under current Planning Policy to create a pastiche of a Victorian building if it is a new build. Planners prefer to see a clear differentiation between old and new buildings, so actively encourage a modern design for any new construction. If the original Pavilion building had survived, Planners would want to see it restored to its original design. What they don't want are new buildings masquerading as old buildings.

That may have made some sense if we hadn't already seen the plans for the Castle Hotel in Llandudno which slightly contradicts the above statement.   The plans are for the Victorian facade to remain at the front elevation and a modern build elsewhere, so it's half old half modern and that has been agreed by CCBC.
But as no work has started on the building despite being promised by Mr Hillier,  I wonder what is going on behind the scenes  and can we expect an often used word viable to appear soon.   If that were to happen would planners have to insist on a modern design for the new construction rather than for the building to blend with its surroundings?   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2016, 02:27:37 PM
Not really a contradiction, Hugo, the original facade of the Tudno Castle hotel is being retained because it is original, whilst the interior will be modern. If the original Pavilion building had survived, it probably would have met the same fate, being as its interior was unsuited to modern usage. Sadly, because it is no longer extant, planners prefer to see a modern replacement.

Personally, Ive always said I would like to see a rebuild of the original building, but with a range of attractions/restaurants inside. Unfortunately, this choice isnt on offer and most likely never will be.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 15, 2016, 09:06:04 AM
The more I think about it, the more sense I think it would make for Mr Waldron and Mr Williams to sit down together and try and come up with a joint plan for redevelopment of the landward pier site. I've always thought that a rebuilt pavilion could house the arcade, leaving the arcade site free for a far grander entrance to the pier and maybe a few more attractions.

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Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 15, 2016, 09:27:17 AM
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That makes a bit of sense, but not in this case Llandudno prides itself on its Victorian heritage, especially the Prom. and the original designs were well worth consideration, but I suspect not profitable enough, now they are trying to push this concrete pile on to us.

Take the case of the Tudno, if that has to be replaced with a modern look, we might not like it, but it would be understandable, but the Pier site is to important, for now and the future, in this case profit needs to be secondary, like Colwyn Bay Pier once its gone its gone, and the Pavillion site once its up.........
I agree with you completely, but we are up against the beauracrats.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 15, 2016, 02:27:36 PM
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I agree with you completely, but we are up against the beauracrats.  &shake&

Nearly right DR....................beaurac  RATS      $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 16, 2016, 09:36:06 AM
Llandudno Pier owner's pledge to protect tenants' interests over pavilion plans
Published date: 16 November 2016 | Published by: Steve Craddock

Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams
THE owner of Llandudno Pier has pledged to protect his tenants after a developer proposed changes to the structure’s kiosks.

Alan Waldron has offered to move kiosks in front of the pier pavilion to a new location behind the columns of the site as part of plans to construct a combination of underground car parking, commercial floorspace and residential units.

But pier owner Adam Williams warned the relocation of the kiosks would 'most definitely' affect business on the pier.

He said: ”If we lose these kiosks there are a number of people who could lose their business. I have a responsibility to my tenants to look after their wellbeing and their future.

"Until negotiations have begun we have no intention of moving the kiosks at present.”

Mr Waldron said: “There is no requirement for the kiosks to be removed from the pier entrance.

“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”

Images showing designs for the new building released by Creu Architecture earlier this month were criticised by Pioneer readers on social media.

A spokesperson for Creu Architecture said: “Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw, The Design Commission for Wales and local councillors have all been consulted from an early stage and have influenced the design of the proposed development on the former Pavilion Site.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.”

Adam Williams said he also has concerns about how the development as a whole could impact on the pier.

He said: “The extreme scenarios are that the pier could lose income and not be able to afford its maintenance so it could have to shut down, or we may have to charge people to go on the pier to make up the lost income, which I’ve never wanted to do.”

Mr Williams said he has also erected a fence between the pier and the pavilion site for health and safety reasons, in order to enclose a fire escape route for his businesses.

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/169145/llandudno-pier-owner-s-pledge-to-protect-tenants-interests-over-pavilion-plans.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/169145/llandudno-pier-owner-s-pledge-to-protect-tenants-interests-over-pavilion-plans.aspx)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 16, 2016, 12:46:16 PM
I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 16, 2016, 01:28:19 PM
If the pier owner was invited to become the developer, I wonder what his plans would look like?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 16, 2016, 03:42:55 PM
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I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.

Again it begs the question, why are CCBC  allegedly  advising Creu for a modern development, I just do not believe it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 16, 2016, 04:33:31 PM
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“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”

I doubt his "legal advice" is any better than his planned design. Surely if you don't use access for a certain time you lose the rights to it and can't force someone to move property on their own land? Couldn't the Pier owner just move the shops forward a bit to form a walkway behind going from the Grand Hotel end to the arcade end thus giving access to the new carbuncle?

Oh the irony of the Pavilion "owner" thinking moving a few kiosks behind the columns would make it look "more aesthetically pleasing"! Only a load of TNT could improve on that planned mess.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 16, 2016, 06:08:45 PM
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I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.

That's very interesting Dave and thanks for posting that proposed design of  the Pavilion in 2003.    To use the developer's buzz word, if this design was viable in 2003 then why is it only viable now if 54 apartments are added to the new building?
The answer is obvious and favours the developer at the expense of the town
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 16, 2016, 06:41:14 PM
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Llandudno Pier owner's pledge to protect tenants' interests over pavilion plans
Published date: 16 November 2016 | Published by: Steve Craddock

Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams
THE owner of Llandudno Pier has pledged to protect his tenants after a developer proposed changes to the structure’s kiosks.

Alan Waldron has offered to move kiosks in front of the pier pavilion to a new location behind the columns of the site as part of plans to construct a combination of underground car parking, commercial floorspace and residential units.

But pier owner Adam Williams warned the relocation of the kiosks would 'most definitely' affect business on the pier.

He said: ”If we lose these kiosks there are a number of people who could lose their business. I have a responsibility to my tenants to look after their wellbeing and their future.

"Until negotiations have begun we have no intention of moving the kiosks at present.”

Mr Waldron said: “There is no requirement for the kiosks to be removed from the pier entrance.

“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”


What Mr Waldron has failed to take into account is his proposal would led to massive increases in operating costs to the Kiosk renters if they move their businesses from the current wooden structures into purpose built stone structures within a new build development. They would be liable for Rent, Business Rates, and no doubt Management Fees which would make them totally unviable.   &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 16, 2016, 06:55:00 PM
When I asked Mr Waldron to explain his reasoning behind the use of black reflective glass for his windows he said it was because the Pavilion had a glass roof, so thought it would be in keeping. Take a look at Dave R's Post Reply 498 above. Look at the Photograph of the Old Pavilion and make your own minds up. I think any glass roof there might have been was replaced around 1875 when it was converted from a covered swimming pool into a theatre.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 16, 2016, 11:39:21 PM
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When I asked Mr Waldron to explain his reasoning behind the use of black reflective glass for his windows he said it was because the Pavilion had a glass roof, so thought it would be in keeping. Take a look at Dave R's Post Reply 498 above. Look at the Photograph of the Old Pavilion and make your own minds up. I think any glass roof there might have been was replaced around 1875 when it was converted from a covered swimming pool into a theatre.

From wiki...

The pavilion was scheduled to open in the Spring of 1883, but a ferocious storm on the night of 25 January 1883 resulted in severe damage to the glass roof. Following a rethink of the roof's design (and much embarrassment to the building's architects, who were promptly dismissed by the pier company), the decision was taken to replace the original glass roof with a sturdy lead one, more suited to the demands of a North Wales location in winter. Extensive rebuilding work was required, and the building did not open officially until September 1886.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 17, 2016, 08:48:06 AM
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What Mr Waldron has failed to take into account is his proposal would led to massive increases in operating costs to the Kiosk renters if they move their businesses from the current wooden structures into purpose built stone structures within a new build development. They would be liable for Rent, Business Rates, and no doubt Management Fees which would make them totally unviable.   &shake&
They pay rent now, Blongb, quite a decent amount, I'm sure, given their prime trading position on the pier. As for business rates, shops that size won't pay any, as they would be under the 100% exemption rate of £6k for Small Business Rate Relief.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 17, 2016, 09:02:10 AM
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When I asked Mr Waldron to explain his reasoning behind the use of black reflective glass for his windows he said it was because the Pavilion had a glass roof, so thought it would be in keeping. Take a look at Dave R's Post Reply 498 above. Look at the Photograph of the Old Pavilion and make your own minds up. I think any glass roof there might have been was replaced around 1875 when it was converted from a covered swimming pool into a theatre.

From wiki...

The pavilion was scheduled to open in the Spring of 1883, but a ferocious storm on the night of 25 January 1883 resulted in severe damage to the glass roof. Following a rethink of the roof's design (and much embarrassment to the building's architects, who were promptly dismissed by the pier company), the decision was taken to replace the original glass roof with a sturdy lead one, more suited to the demands of a North Wales location in winter. Extensive rebuilding work was required, and the building did not open officially until September 1886.
Trivia fact: I actually wrote that Wiki article, many years ago.

Yes, the Pavilion was originally intended to be more of a Winter Garden type structure, with extensive glass roof. Interestingly, the ornate cast iron columns and balcony extant today were not part of the original design either:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 17, 2016, 10:51:02 PM
Nice one Mr author of wiki article!!

Did the first picture ever get built then? 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 19, 2016, 02:34:49 PM

Some inretesting comments from 2011 which seem to have been forgotton, and contradict CCBC and CADW aleged latest advice?

The council report notes that the site lies in a focal position within the designated Llandudno Conservation Area.

There are numerous listed buildings in the vicinity of the site, including The Grand Hotel which is Grade II and the Pier itself which is Grade II*.
The Great Orme provides the backdrop to the site and, together with the whole town, is included in the Conwy and Creuddyn Historic Landscape of Outstanding Interest.
The remains of the Pier Pavilion structure also retain their listed status.

The council's Community Overview and Scrutiny Committee will be told that Cadw - which looks after historical monuments in Wales - considers it be an extremely important site in conservation designation terms.
Full article......
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-14349618 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-14349618)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 21, 2016, 08:37:16 AM
A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 21, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
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As we thought, the design of the new Pavilion building is actually the result of input from CCBC, CADW and the Design Commission for Wales. The Architects/Developer originally favoured a design more reminiscent of the original building. Current planning practice prefers a clearly contemporary new build, rather than an attempt to emulate a Victorian design.

Alwyn Rowlands, director of Creu, said their design had been created after consultation with Conwy’s planning and conservation chiefs, Cadw and the Design Commission of Wales.

He said: “Due to site constraints resulting in abnormally high anticipated development costs, to prove viable the brief stated that the scheme accommodation was to comprise a mixed use scheme of below ground parking, commercial restaurant floor space with residential accommodation above.
“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modernist-pier-pavilion-development-building-12152893 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/modernist-pier-pavilion-development-building-12152893)

I asked the question before     Why CCBC and CADW  were advising a modern build , now according to a recent BBC article, it appears this advice is from  the design commision for Wales only.

In a statement, Creu said consultation feedback recommended the scheme "should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and architectural character".

They added: "A Design Commission for Wales report stated that the proposals should avoid trying to replicate details from the former pavilion and the existing structures in the vicinity and that simplification was needed to achieve the level of quality required given the context, prominence and size of the building.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-38001722 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-38001722)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 21, 2016, 12:15:29 PM
If anyone wishes to read the Design Commission Report on the Pier Pavilion, it can be downloaded here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/llandudno_pier_pavilion_design_c (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/llandudno_pier_pavilion_design_c)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 21, 2016, 12:40:08 PM
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If anyone wishes to read the Design Commission Report on the Pier Pavilion, it can be downloaded here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/llandudno_pier_pavilion_design_c (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/llandudno_pier_pavilion_design_c)

Thank you Dave, an eye opening report, I am no wiser as to the developers intentions, other than he is playing us.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 21, 2016, 01:02:41 PM
I was browsing You know your from Llandudno if..... on Facebook last night when I came across this link https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development?bucket (https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development?bucket) If you agree please sign it and show the Planners the depth of feeling against this design. $thanx$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 22, 2016, 11:16:44 AM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development

I am surprised that only 635 people have signed the petition so far, I expected a lot more.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on November 22, 2016, 12:28:59 PM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development

I am surprised that only 635 people have signed the petition so far, I expected a lot more.

Not bad - it's over 1/40 of the whole population of the town. Should give them cause for concern.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: PhilMick on November 22, 2016, 01:16:44 PM
I don't like it, but I wonder how many people would vote for it? :twoface:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: PhilMick on November 22, 2016, 01:22:51 PM
Just had this email from the petiton people:

Dear friends,

Thanks to your support we have raised the awareness of the future of the former pier pavilion site in Llandudno.

Today the DAILY POST newspaper have written an article on line regarding public concerns about the development. there will be further coverage in the paper edition. CCBC and the developers have been asked to comment and confirm they will discuss the concerns with CCBC. 

The job however is not done and we must continue to collect as much support as possible.

The more people who sign the petition, the more chance we have of winning the changes we all want to see. I'm emailing you to ask if you can go one step further and share the petition with your friends and family if you haven't already done so.

If  you have any support you can offer or suggestions how to take this campaign forward please message me through the 38 degrees website at the link below.


Here's the link https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development?bucket=memblast
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 22, 2016, 01:56:41 PM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development

I am surprised that only 635 people have signed the petition so far, I expected a lot more.

635 people in 2 days Steve and I think most of those will have found out about the petition, like I did, by accident. If the Daily Post puts a link to it, so that it can reach more people, then we will see the numbers rise expediently.   $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 22, 2016, 02:53:33 PM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development
I am surprised that only 635 people have signed the petition so far, I expected a lot more.
635 people in 2 days Steve and I think most of those will have found out about the petition, like I did, by accident. If the Daily Post puts a link to it, so that it can reach more people, then we will see the numbers rise expediently.   $good$

Your right B. there is no mention of the link other than the 38degrees campaign,   .......TOM  ?   ?     ?   ;)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on November 22, 2016, 04:19:44 PM
Well I have signed and posted the petition on Facebook. It's a carbuncle in the making. HRH, you are our Prince, get on board. It's your type of cause to support.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on November 22, 2016, 05:25:06 PM
Thats a few more signatures, suggest we all share it on Facebook or wherever.
I'd like to hear if someone actually likes it if you know what I mean!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2016, 10:47:52 PM
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Thats a few more signatures, suggest we all share it on Facebook or wherever.
I'd like to hear if someone actually likes it if you know what I mean!

There are 751 signature on it at present so it's going up ok
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 23, 2016, 08:55:18 AM
The pier owner has recently applied to the licensing authority of CCBC to extend the licenced area to cover the entire pier premises (excluding the amusement arcades).

Presumably, the existing licenced area is only the bar at the far end of the pier.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on November 23, 2016, 09:10:12 AM
What about Langtry's? Although I suppose they have their own licence apart from the pier. Either way a new bar at the other end would be bad for their business.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: PhilMick on November 23, 2016, 09:23:04 AM
I would like to see the pier as a commercial success - too many seaside towns have lost their piers.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 23, 2016, 04:04:32 PM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development

805 signed still very slow.....  :(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 25, 2016, 10:12:35 AM
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A petition has been created, for those that wish to object to the proposed design of the new Pier Pavilion:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/llandudno-pier-pavilion-development

805 signed still very slow.....  :(

Petition reached 1000 signatures @ 10.00 today
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 30, 2016, 11:00:10 AM
Developer promises to amend Llandudno Pier Pavilion plans following consultation
Published date: 30 November 2016 | Published by: Steve Craddock

DEVELOPERS behind Llandudno’s Pier Pavilion site have promised to amend plans following a storm of protest over the building’s ‘out of place’ design.

More than 1,250 people backed a petition highlighting the need for the project, a combination of underground car parking, commercial floorspace and residential units, to reflect its Victorian surroundings, after Alan Waldron released the first images of his plans ahead of a consultation.

Mr Waldron has emphasised that consultation responses will be listened to, but warned the development will still be modern.

He said: “The process we have just gone through enables us to listen to people’s comments. Now we will go away and amend the plans accordingly.

“The massing and scale of it will be similar and it will be a modern design - it may be a modern Victorian design.”

Christian Roberts, who lives in Llandudno, launched the petition saying that while he welcomes development of the site, the project must be sensitive to the style of the town.

Mr Roberts, aged 44, said: “I believe the town is based on its Victorian reputation and this is going against what has kept it going over the years.

“All of us are reliant on the town succeeding as a tourist destination. I do believe it needs developing but we need to get it right, in a sensitive way to the buildings around it. The other buildings in that area have to follow a strict criteria and that is not being applied to this.”

During the consultation period North Wales Pioneer readers took to Facebook to share their views.

Tony Baker commented: “Hideous and out of place," while Kelly Greenhalgh said: "It doesn't really fit with the look of the town, would be a shame if that went up. Great idea, but the design doesn't fit.”

Lisa Roscoe commented: “That looks awful, would be ok in London but not Llandudno . Not keeping with its surroundings.”

To see the petition search for Llandudno Pier Pavilion Development on 38degrees.org.uk

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/169611/developer-promises-to-amend-llandudno-pier-pavilion-plans-following-consultation.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/169611/developer-promises-to-amend-llandudno-pier-pavilion-plans-following-consultation.aspx)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 30, 2016, 12:01:48 PM
Mr Waldron has emphasised that consultation responses will be listened to, but warned the development will still be modern.
He said: “The process we have just gone through enables us to listen to people’s comments. Now we will go away and amend the plans accordingly.

“The massing and scale of it will be similar and it will be a modern design - it may be a modern Victorian design.”

He sounds very confident, no mention that he hopes CCBC will like the new plans, I am still concerned about the massing and scale comment, there are two problems with the design, size and style, it sounds as if he is only going to address the style aspect.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on November 30, 2016, 12:18:42 PM
"modern Victorian "

oxy-MORON  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 30, 2016, 12:58:09 PM
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"modern Victorian "

oxy-MORON  $good$

Who are calling a moron?  *punch* *punch*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 30, 2016, 03:34:09 PM

I'm with you Steve, if "The massing and scale" of any revised application is the same as the last one, then that will be unacceptable too. There was a Lady on you know your from Llandudno if.... who wrote a lovely open letter

https://www.facebook.com/groups/91560190640/10157763904320641/?notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&notif_id=1480366878591158 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/91560190640/10157763904320641/?notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic&notif_id=1480366878591158)

in which she said it's not about the detrimental effect it will have on our view that is important, but the detrimental effect it will have on your view of use. Llandudno is defined and recognised all over the World by the view from The Little Orme across the Bay to the Great Orme. Any redevelopment of the Pier Pavilion site must be sensitive and in keeping and scale to preserve our Victorian Heritage.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 30, 2016, 04:22:13 PM
What an excellent heartfelt letter Blongb, history seems to be forgotten by planners these days, I understand the need for profit, but in this case common sense is needed.
I hope everyone gets to read it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on December 01, 2016, 07:44:18 PM
Mr Waldron is developing a site (formally Long Les sign writer) at Glan Conwy the arrangement appears to be that in exchange for the site he gets a penthouse apartment .I believe that there is a boundary dispute ongoing already with a neighbour, (
he has foundations on land in dispute)his track record with the quay would suggest some interesting news to come
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 02, 2016, 02:44:22 PM
I think we are in for a long battle, I do not understand Waldrons confidence, that CCBC will not object too the plan, or am I being naive.........

Llandudno Pier Pavilion pressure group started...but developer says scale and modern design will not change.

Full article......
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pavilion-pressure-group-12264279 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pavilion-pressure-group-12264279)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2016, 03:13:39 PM
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Mr Waldron is developing a site (formally Long Les sign writer) at Glan Conwy the arrangement appears to be that in exchange for the site he gets a penthouse apartment .I believe that there is a boundary dispute ongoing already with a neighbour, (
he has foundations on land in dispute)his track record with the quay would suggest some interesting news to come

Thanks for posting that Spotty Dog,  I drove past the site in Glan Conwy and wondered what was going on.    John Les' penthouse is a long way off and he should be careful, very careful.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Tom Davidson on December 03, 2016, 07:44:27 AM
Have you heard about the proposed name for said pressure group....

https://twitter.com/DPTomDavidson/status/804795955065319424

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 03, 2016, 08:02:36 AM
 _))* _))* _))*  Oh, dear...

Perhaps they need an umbrella group: Wales And Llandudno Local Interest in Excellence Society... (Or perhaps not)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 03, 2016, 09:31:36 AM
How about 'Save Hotels In Town'?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 05, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
I've added in a poll to ascertain members' thoughts on what should happen with the site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 05, 2016, 12:27:02 PM
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I've added in a poll to ascertain members' thoughts on what should happen with the site.

As much as I would like to see option 2,  I think a developer would need the profit from the flats to justify costs, but not to the present scale, which is abhorrent.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 06, 2016, 03:37:51 PM
The proposed name for the pressure group has now been dropped

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pressure-sees-slag-12273214 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pressure-sees-slag-12273214)



Strangely though,  I have spoken to two people today about the development.   One was a hotelier who has a hotel by the pier and the other was someone I met in a coffee morning and they both have said that the plans have been withdrawn because of the opposition to them.
I have seen no evidence to support their comments but even if I did I wouldn't trust the developer one bit as  they will not be abandoning the idea of developing something there
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 06, 2016, 06:24:31 PM
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The proposed name for the pressure group has now been dropped

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pressure-sees-slag-12273214 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pressure-sees-slag-12273214)



.... I wouldn't trust the developer one bit as  they will not be abandoning the idea of developing something there

I think the bigger worry is that they DO abandon plans to develop SOMETHING there!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 06, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
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I think the bigger worry is that they DO abandon plans to develop SOMETHING there!

Frankly if it's a choice between Waldron and nothing I'd opt for nothing. He clearly saw an opportunity to make big bucks and it has spectacularly backfired. The site is all but hidden except from the rear and it doesn't spoil as many views as the carbuncle would have done.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 06, 2016, 10:14:04 PM
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I think the bigger worry is that they DO abandon plans to develop SOMETHING there!

Frankly if it's a choice between Waldron and nothing I'd opt for nothing. He clearly saw an opportunity to make big bucks and it has spectacularly backfired. The site is all but hidden except from the rear and it doesn't spoil as many views as the carbuncle would have done.

In a way I agree with you OrmeMac but blame CCBC for not compulsory purchasing the site after the fire.  I know about the planning requirements for that area but these developers can and will exploit all the loopholes they can get away with.
One Councillor suggested a compulsory purchase on it and make it into a park but was ridiculed for making the suggestion.   Why?   It makes more sense than just leaving it as an eyesore and letting the freeholders to take the mick out of the Council.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on December 08, 2016, 02:11:48 PM
The council should not be blamed for not compulsory purchasing the site. If they had done so, they would have been under an obligation to rebuild the pier pavilion, with no budget to do so. That would have put an intolerable burden on Conwy rate payers. Where the Council did miss an opportunity was not using the power of the town and country planning act to put prohibitive fines on Mr Nixon the site owner to clear up the site, properly fence it off to keep the public safe maintain the site  so as not to be an eyesore on the town. The fines that can be imposed are very punitive and it wouldn't have been long before he would have been forced to get rid of it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2016, 10:19:01 PM
Good to see you back on the forum Blongb and I trust that your knee operation went well in Gobowen.

When I said a compulsory purchase for the Pier Pavilion site I didn't expect CCBC to have to rebuild it, I meant for them to acquire the land and then develop it as and when was suitable for them to do so.
CCBC have had the powers to force the former owner to do something but for whatever reason they have chosen not to do so, like they have for the Castle Hotel and the Penmorfa Hotel

When the Pavilion was burnt down I remember it being fenced off and a chain and padlock on the gate to what was the entrance to the former Tucson amusements and there was a notice on the gate which I seem to remember saying something like No entrance by Order of Mostyn Estates. Now Mostyn Estates had no interest in the land or the building so I don't know what that was about or why they are involved in this matter either
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 09, 2016, 10:17:20 AM
Mostyn Estates have no interest in the Pavilion site, as far as I know.

As far as a Compulsory Purchase goes, CCBC did one on the derelict market hall in Colwyn Bay. They bought the site, cleared it and fenced it off. It's now sitting there until a developer is found to take on the site.

Absolutely no reason why they couldn't have done the same with the Pavilion site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 09, 2016, 11:11:31 AM
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Mostyn Estates have no interest in the Pavilion site, as far as I know.

So why did they reportedly do the recent groundworks on the site?

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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2016, 11:45:50 AM
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Mostyn Estates have no interest in the Pavilion site, as far as I know.

So why did they reportedly do the recent groundworks on the site?

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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.

Mostyn Estates would never pay for something like that unless they had some vested interest in the place, so it's all very strange.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2016, 11:49:26 AM
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As far as a Compulsory Purchase goes, CCBC did one on the derelict market hall in Colwyn Bay. They bought the site, cleared it and fenced it off. It's now sitting there until a developer is found to take on the site.

Absolutely no reason why they couldn't have done the same with the Pavilion site.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make and I can see no reason why it wasn't done at the time.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 09, 2016, 03:46:43 PM
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Mostyn Estates have no interest in the Pavilion site, as far as I know.

So why did they reportedly do the recent groundworks on the site?

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Mostyn Estates have paid for a Mechanical Digger which is clearing the Pier Pavilion Site today, so they can carry out a survey tomorrow which will enable them to check the feasibility of the site for redevelopment, although they don't own the site at the moment.

I think you'll find that Mr Waldron paid for that work.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2016, 03:50:30 PM
That makes more sense, but how do you know that Mr Waldron paid for that?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on December 11, 2016, 08:16:50 PM
Mr Waldron's latest development at Glan Conwy
quaydevelopmentsconwy@outlook.com
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2016, 10:36:06 PM
That link is just his e-mail address. 

I see that John Leslie Pritchard and Alan Waldron are directors in the Quay Developments  Conwy Company and noticed it had a Statement of Capital of  GBP   1,000

At least that's enough for the firm's Christmas Party
   
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix8vrOmu3QAhWIdVAKHdB0BMQQFggnMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.manchestercheck.com%2Fuk%2F09872859%2Fquay-developments-conwy-ltd&usg=AFQjCNEweIjaPOGvVk2a1fM03E5W2N9Tvw (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwix8vrOmu3QAhWIdVAKHdB0BMQQFggnMAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.manchestercheck.com%2Fuk%2F09872859%2Fquay-developments-conwy-ltd&usg=AFQjCNEweIjaPOGvVk2a1fM03E5W2N9Tvw)


Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 15, 2016, 05:22:37 PM
I have just read this thread right from page 1, wow what a saga.  I know absolutely nothing about how land is actually valued but it seems to me that unless someone (anyone) can get planning permission the land is, to all intents and purpose, worthless!  If the owner is still the same person (just moving it around companies) AND Waldron hasn't actually bought it yet, if he doesn't get planning permission and LBC he won't want to take up the option. Thus the original owner will be stuck with it still.  Holding out for a big ticket price doesn't seem to be working for him! 
The 2011 plans for a hotel never even made it into the planning department, they got booted out before that stage AND a development brief was subsequently written by the council. That development brief still stands and is what Waldron says he has based his plans on.   :o no way! The man is a philistine.  $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 15, 2016, 08:47:51 PM
Busy first day CMG ......... Welcome    $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on December 24, 2016, 11:18:10 AM
Waldron and his cohorts are certainly out of touch with reality.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 28, 2016, 09:49:49 AM
It will be interesting to see the revised design for the Pavilion site. I'm sure we would all wish to see a building of appropriate design replacing the current eyesore and creating a few new attractions and jobs in the town.  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2016, 05:36:05 PM
I thought that Waldron wasn't going to change the plan or scale it down, but then he does say one thing and then does something else.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 30, 2016, 11:31:57 AM
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I thought that Waldron wasn't going to change the plan or scale it down, but then he does say one thing and then does something else.

Sorry about this, but we have to be very careful about potential legal issues. Can we ask everyone to be a little more prudent when discussing people who are alive and could sue us?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 30, 2016, 07:04:51 PM
There's many a true word spoken in jest.      ?{}?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on December 31, 2016, 02:03:41 PM
It's open season for speculative developments in Conwy County at the moment. Even if the Planning Committee throw out plans they deem unsuitable, the applicant can go to appeal to the Welsh Ministers. Every County in Wales is required to maintain a 5 year supply of readily available housing land and at the moment Conwy County only has 3.7 years which has opened up a loophole. By quoting this shortfall at appeal which is a material consideration developers are getting planning permission on sites that would not normally get permission. No site is safe in Conwy County and the Local Development plan which was adopted by the Council in October 2013 at a cost of over one million is now useless in protecting and controlling inappropriate development. It doesn't matter what type of dwelling it is or the price, if it helps Conwy County Borough Council meet it's 5 year required target it will be built. So Watch out Bodafon Fields they may be coming for you next.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 31, 2016, 03:04:15 PM
That's cheered me up no end Meleri      &shake&

It's open season on planning then, so there is no holding back development on the Pier Pavilion,  Penmorfa Hotel,  Castle Hotel,  Bodafon Fields,  Odstone   etc etc
We'll have to see what happens next in these applications.

On a more positive note Meleri, I'd like to wish you a Happy and Healthy New Year    $good$

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on January 01, 2017, 03:19:14 PM
Sorry Hugo  :( I got a bit carried away there, I sound like Private Frazer from Dad's Army " We're all doomed, doomed I tell ye" But it's what we have come to expect from certain departments of CCBC isn't it.

Thank you for your kind wishes and a Happy, Healthy New Year to you and your family. Please keep your walks and photographs coming we enjoy them immensely.

Meleri
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on January 13, 2017, 04:45:26 PM
The Future of Llandudno Action Group (FLAG) is reporting that the site is slowly filling up with sewage:

Quote
Exploratory excavations on the former Pier Pavilion site have not only exacerbated the ‘eyesore’ but have fractured sewage pipes from The Grand Hotel. Repair work was carried out by contractors for the developer in December but it appears the problem was not solved; raw sewage continues to contaminate the site.

Pools of raw sewage and kitchen waste are quite deep and very large and the stench is bad even in this cold weather. Rat footprints are everywhere on this cesspit.

https://www.facebook.com/Llandudnopierpavilionsite/ (https://www.facebook.com/Llandudnopierpavilionsite/)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on January 13, 2017, 11:56:06 PM
It IS filling with sewage, seriously, and it's a massive threat in more ways than one.

When the developer's survey team drilled on the site, they managed to fracture the sewer from The Grand hotel.   Workmen from Dwr Cymru I believe, 'fixed' the sewer.
However, some weeks later, an expanding pool of raw sewage was noted, and the stench has been complained about on the pier by visitors and employees.
When the CCBC public health dept examined the site, they also detected raw sewage seeping through the sea wall into the sea.
This is an obvious threat to the town's blue flag bathing status..... and to public health!
As of this week, the pit of s##t is still growing, and no one seems to be able to take responsibility for tackling this serious problem.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on January 14, 2017, 09:33:23 AM
Let's hope something is done before the summer...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on January 14, 2017, 10:41:45 AM
Mostyn Estates gives verdict on Pier Pavilion proposal and predicts Llandudno set to thrive in 2017.

There is to be significant remodelling work at the Mostyn Champneys Retail Park, and preparatory work starts this month on Tudno Castle development with the main contractors due to be on site in a matter of weeks.”

On the controversial proposals for the derelict Pier Pavilion site, he said: “Whilst interest in the redevelopment of the site is welcomed, together with the inward investment it would bring; in my view the desirability of wanting something to happen with it should not override achieving the right development for the town.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/mostyn-estates-gives-verdict-pier-12448647 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/mostyn-estates-gives-verdict-pier-12448647)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2017, 10:47:29 AM
Well now the     $fan$   who is going to foot the bill for the clean up?

Will it be the Nixons who own the site or will it be Mr Waldron who has an option to buy it, or will they pass it on to the ratepayers?    I just hope that the mess is cleaned up as soon as possible as this proposed development has caused enough stink already.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on January 14, 2017, 02:14:12 PM
Maybe the plan is to cause such as stink that any development that gets rid of it would we welcomed, no matter how bad it looks? The comments from Mostyn Estates is very interesting - to me at least it implies they aren't too impressed with the current plans either.

One other point that was raised on the facebook page for FLAG was that as virtually the whole site is going to be redeveloped there won't be any space for the usual builders huts, stores, etc and so all of this would most likely have to go on the street behind the development.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
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Maybe the plan is to cause such as stink that any development that gets rid of it would we welcomed, no matter how bad it looks? The comments from Mostyn Estates is very interesting - to me at least it implies they aren't too impressed with the current plans either.

One other point that was raised on the facebook page for FLAG was that as virtually the whole site is going to be redeveloped there won't be any space for the usual builders huts, stores, etc and so all of this would most likely have to go on the street behind the development.

I got that impression too about Mostyn Estates views on the proposed development.   It's completely out of character and scale of the surrounding area.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on January 16, 2017, 01:04:31 PM
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It IS filling with sewage, seriously, and it's a massive threat in more ways than one.

When the developer's survey team drilled on the site, they managed to fracture the sewer from The Grand hotel.   Workmen from Dwr Cymru I believe, 'fixed' the sewer.
However, some weeks later, an expanding pool of raw sewage was noted, and the stench has been complained about on the pier by visitors and employees.
When the CCBC public health dept examined the site, they also detected raw sewage seeping through the sea wall into the sea.
This is an obvious threat to the town's blue flag bathing status..... and to public health!
As of this week, the pit of s##t is still growing, and no one seems to be able to take responsibility for tackling this serious problem.
When the old Pavilion was extant, there was often a problem with the drains from the Grand Hotel blocking (due to grease entering the drains) and this would result in the basement of the Pavilion (which was then used for the Llandudno Dungeon exhibition) flooding with sewage.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on January 16, 2017, 04:48:14 PM
Wouldn't the developer of the site have to re-route the pipes as part of their plans so they could be protected and easily accessed?

Surely CCBC should take action against raw sewage filling the site and tell the developer to either fix it or they will and them them the bill.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on January 16, 2017, 06:09:22 PM
I've been for a meeting at the Pier today, and I can confirm that the pit of sewage is still growing Day by day.... and NOTHING is being done about it.
The pier management have exhausted all avenues.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on January 19, 2017, 06:43:08 PM
Mr Waldron was down in the pit this afternoon. Didn’t manage to work  out what  he was up to but his workman used the excavator to make a small scrap from smelly corner to the centre of the site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on January 20, 2017, 02:07:47 PM
I find it hard to believe that 3 people actually support the idea of leaving this eyesore as it is for another 20 years. I could guess who they might be but I hope by voting it doesn't reveal who you are to anyone including the mods. I wouldn't want anyone to know if it was me!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on January 20, 2017, 03:02:29 PM
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I find it hard to believe that 3 people actually support the idea of leaving this eyesore as it is for another 20 years. I could guess who they might be but I hope by voting it doesn't reveal who you are to anyone including the mods. I wouldn't want anyone to know if it was me!

Anyone with an ounce of sence has to realise it's in the towns best interest for the site to be redeveloped. It just comes down to finance. Can anyone afford to put something there that would be an amenity to residents and visitors alike or must it end up being a massive monstrosity for the benefit of a few.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on January 20, 2017, 04:24:14 PM
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I find it hard to believe that 3 people actually support the idea of leaving this eyesore as it is for another 20 years. I could guess who they might be but I hope by voting it doesn't reveal who you are to anyone including the mods. I wouldn't want anyone to know if it was me!

Leave the site empty or allow someone to destroy one of the best views in Wales? Hmmm...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on January 31, 2017, 01:40:42 PM
Llandudno seafront sewage leak sparks smell and pollution fears

A drainage problem at the Grand Hotel has seen sewage spill on to the Pier Pavilion site.
There had been claims it was related to groundworks on the site ahead of a planning application for a controversial restaurant and housing scheme at the location.
But officers at Conwy council say the problem was due to defective drainage from the Grand Hotel and not connected in any way to the works on the Pier Pavilion land.

A spokeswoman from Conwy council said: "The Council did receive reports of a sewage leak.
"Upon investigation, officers were able to confirm that the problem was related to defective drainage from an adjacent property; we are satisfied that they are taking all steps to resolve the problem.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-seafront-sewage-leak-sparks-12531474 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-seafront-sewage-leak-sparks-12531474)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on January 31, 2017, 09:42:24 PM
Drainage Problem at the Grand Hotel......What a coincidence!  No cesspit until Waldron's ground works started....sorry but I smell a rat (like the deliberate pun?).  Why did this cesspit only develop since Waldron's digger started working there? I understand that there has been an ongoing problem with the drains already but it's now a whole lot worse...as is the look of the whole site since he got in there. Of course the council will blame it totally on the Grand, they have a vested interest in keeping Waldron 'clean' (doing well with these puns!).  If rumours are true, and I was told that this came from Waldron's own lips, the council asked him to develop the site.  But further, surely this begs the question can the Victorian sewers cope with modern day waste levels from 2 HUGE restaurants and 54 flats?  Not looking promising is it. Wonder how much more investment Waldron will have to find to bring the sewers up to a reliable modern standard?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on February 01, 2017, 04:19:50 PM
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......... But further, surely this begs the question can the Victorian sewers cope with modern day waste levels from 2 HUGE restaurants and 54 flats?  Not looking promising is it. Wonder how much more investment Waldron will have to find to bring the sewers up to a reliable modern standard?

I was walking in Rhos this morning and by chance saw the size of the sewage pipes being installed on a large 5 story development on the promenade. Similar pipes would have to be used to meet modern building code for any development on the pier pavilion site,. which then begs the question, how could they be connected to the main sewer on North Parade without causing major disruption to the Promenade, Pier, all adjacent Hotel businesses, the Gardens, Buses, Coaches and normal road traffic.
Someone had better put their thinking cap on PDQ.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 01, 2017, 04:35:29 PM
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Mr Waldron is developing a site (formally Long Les sign writer) at Glan Conwy the arrangement appears to be that in exchange for the site he gets a penthouse apartment .I believe that there is a boundary dispute ongoing already with a neighbour, (
he has foundations on land in dispute)his track record with the quay would suggest some interesting news to come

I had a walk on the Bird Reserve at Llandudno Junction today and part of the reserve passes close to this building site which is where John Les' former house was.   It has fantastic views from the site but the downside is the close proximity to the busy A470.
I hope that there are no hidden underground pipes on this site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on February 02, 2017, 03:29:21 PM
Nice views across the river but unfortunately you can't say the same for the southerly aspect, which is rather spoiled by the old sheads down the boundary fence of the garden centre.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 02, 2017, 03:41:01 PM
You are correct of course, the nice views are straight ahead and down to Conwy.  I've noticed also that the views are somewhat  affected by the Sun in the afternoon and the views are not as clear then.
Someone on here mentioned that John Les has been promised a penthouse by Waldron in exchange for the house and grounds.   It must be for a penthouse on the Glan Conwy property because the Pier Pavilion seems a non starter at the moment.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on February 03, 2017, 12:53:20 AM
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You are correct of course, the nice views are straight ahead and down to Conwy.  I've noticed also that the views are somewhat  affected by the Sun in the afternoon and the views are not as clear then.
Someone on here mentioned that John Les has been promised a penthouse by Waldron in exchange for the house and grounds.   It must be for a penthouse on the Glan Conwy property because the Pier Pavilion seems a non starter at the moment.

You're joking aren't you Hugo?
The Pier Pavilion development will most certainly go ahead, in some form, and very early this year.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on February 03, 2017, 01:13:30 AM
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You're joking aren't you Hugo?
The Pier Pavilion development will most certainly go ahead, in some form, and very early this year.

We've been here many times before over the last 23 years Fester, so I wouldn't go holding  your breath if I were you.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 03, 2017, 08:30:31 AM
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You're joking aren't you Hugo?
The Pier Pavilion development will most certainly go ahead, in some form, and very early this year.

We've been here many times before over the last 23 years Fester, so I wouldn't go holding  your breath if I were you.

I've seen it all before too and although most people would want the site developed it can't be at any price.   There is a lot of pressure exerted on the CCBC by these developers whose only interest is to get a maximum profit but the planning process will take a while anyway and I wouldn't expect any progress this side of the Summer, if at all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on February 12, 2017, 03:49:19 PM
After chasing clues on Hugos quiz today, I found this and it made me think of all projects and eyesores that are up for development.......

Clough Williams-Ellis was a man with great vision. Portmeirion gave him much pleasure during his life and is today giving much pleasure to it’s many visitors. His motto was “Cherish the Past, Adorn the Present, Construct for the Future”,
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 04, 2017, 04:11:01 PM
According to FLAG https://www.facebook.com/Llandudnopierpavilionsite/ (https://www.facebook.com/Llandudnopierpavilionsite/) Mr. Waldron has submitted his planning application for the site and all is due to be revealed on Monday. They also report that there is a special CCBC planning committee meeting to be held on 20th April 2017.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 04, 2017, 04:42:18 PM
By coincidence, plans for the Lidl in Llandudno Junction are also being revealed on Monday.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Tom Davidson on March 06, 2017, 07:59:48 AM
I, for one, can't wait.

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By coincidence, plans for the Lidl in Llandudno Junction are also being revealed on Monday.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 08, 2017, 08:50:28 AM
The revised design for the Pier Pavilion site, a planning application has now been submitted. For comparison purposes, I have attached a photo of the original design below the new one.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 08, 2017, 08:58:56 AM
Full story in the Daily Post:

Plans have now been submitted for a £15million restaurant and apartment complex on the Pier Pavilion site in Llandudno.

Developer Alan Waldron acquired the site - which has been empty for more than 20 years - for over £1million last year.

He says he has worked hard to design a building sympathetic to the seaside resort’s Victorian landscape and surroundings.

The proposals are for 54 high-quality apartments, two restaurants, underground car parking and an enhanced public realm featuring a walkway from the pier through to Happy Valley Road.

The developer went out to public consultation last year with the initial plan and after feedback has made adjustments to the design prior to submitting this application to Conwy council.

Mr Waldron, from Deganwy, said two international food chains are “seriously interested” in leasing the restaurants – which will generate more than 100 permanent jobs.

He is committed to using local builders and suppliers - creating hundreds of job opportunities over the two year build.

The site, adjacent to Llandudno Pier, has lain empty since a devastating fire destroyed the old pavilion building in 1994.

Mr Waldron said he is determined to restore it to its former glory and give Llandudno a new, modern and quality building it can be proud of.

“Together with Creu Architecture, from Denbigh, I’ve worked closely with the council, CADW, Mostyn Estates and the Design Commission to draw-up proposals that will do just that,” he said.

“We’ve consulted local residents, businesses, and the owners of the pier and the Grand Hotel throughout, so there has been complete transparency and a willingness to review the design in response to feedback.”

He said it fitted with Conwy’s Economic Growth Strategy that included developing a more vibrant night-time economy in Llandudno.

“We fully support the strategy, and the strategy supports the need for restaurants and bars in the town,” said Mr Waldron, who also developed Deganwy Quay marina and hotel.

“These will be top-quality restaurants, and I’ve been in discussions for some time with two very well-known chains that are seriously interested in taking the space.

“The apartments will be of the highest standard – the build cost for this is going to be around £15million – and they won’t be for short-term lets, they’re for people who are as committed as we are to producing a development Llandudno can be proud of.”

The developer said as Llandudno is famous for its Great Orme copper mine, the designs incorporate the metal throughout, while the architecture flows from the Grand Hotel along the promenade and hotel facades.

Mr Waldron added: “The plans are now with the council, and should they be approved I expect construction to begin in the autumn.

“It is 10 years since I first looked at the site and recognised the need for a quality project but the path towards re-development has been far from easy and has only been sustained because of local commitment.

“We’ve tackled any issues head-on and I would like to thank all of the people who helped us to this point.

“I truly believe this is a development that will enhance the location, the economy and support tourism, as well as creating jobs in one of the most beautiful towns in the country.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/exclusive-llandudnos-new-pier-pavilion-12706894 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/exclusive-llandudnos-new-pier-pavilion-12706894)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Greyhound on March 08, 2017, 09:15:03 AM
Well I am going to stick my neck out and say I think it looks good. We aren't going to ever recreate the original and I am not one for pastiche with fake columns and plastic moulding. I think it looks modern but sympathetic, which is what i think would be best for the site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 08, 2017, 09:18:55 AM
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Well I am going to stick my neck out and say I think it looks good. We aren't going to ever recreate the original and I am not one for pastiche with fake columns and plastic moulding. I think it looks modern but sympathetic, which is what i think would be best for the site.
I think it's a great improvement on the original design and also fits in far better with the Grand Hotel next door.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 10:03:06 AM
Err...yes, but to me, anyway, the only difference appears to be a coat of paint. The original design looked bad because of the high contrast finish: near-black against the white of the hotel. However, it's a well-known technique: provide an initial application that appears grotesque, wait for the tumult to abate then submit a proposal which is almost identical.  People then agree out of a sense of resignation coupled with relief.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 10:12:17 AM
On a positive note I like the change, however it is still a very big build on a small footprint, as someone said the previous plan could have been a red herring setting us up for what they intened all the time, I am looking forward to seeing the reaction from FLAG and those close to the development.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 08, 2017, 11:01:36 AM
Please let there be a Burger King in it.... PLEASE!!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 11:18:09 AM
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Please let there be a Burger King in it.... PLEASE!!!
Quote from above.....
These will be top-quality restaurants, and I’ve been in discussions for some time with two very well-known chains that are seriously interested in taking the space.              :twoface:

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 08, 2017, 12:02:19 PM
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Err...yes, but to me, anyway, the only difference appears to be a coat of paint.
If you look more closely, you'll see there are actually quite  a few changes to the detail of the design:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 12:21:39 PM
A few of the comments from the article.....

Ha. Just changed the colour of the original design from black to white.

Thought it was going for a modern Victoriana look... Don't object to modern but I think it should have more than a passing nod to the Victorian heratige

This is just Benidorm 2.0, right next to a listed building.

Makes sense that the planning application is going in before May's council election. Cllr Rees is not standing for re-election so won't be accountable afterwards. This application should wait until after May.

I like it. It will bring a touch of the modern to Llandudno, which is exactly what the town needs instead of just constantly wallowing in Victoriana.

Just another big block of flats
Don't allow this to happen!

Is this the best they can do? It's awful, looks nothing like a victorian building, just a cheap block of flats, they need to pull designs from surrounding buildings, this is nothing to do with how many it will employ, that's a smokescreen and people are not that stupid. The building is a carbuncle, sack the planner and get a decent one.

I agree with you about the flat roof, why does anyone think this is a good idea in a country like Britain?  There is a good deal of room for improvement in this design, even though it is a little better than the previous one

This is a small improvement on the previous design. Instead of complaining, perhaps we should suggest improvements. For example the flat roof is out of character and should be redesigned. The frontage looks like a Benidorn high rise apartment block. This needs improvement and should be traditionally clad.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 08, 2017, 01:27:17 PM
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Please let there be a Burger King in it.... PLEASE!!!
Quote from above.....
These will be top-quality restaurants, and I’ve been in discussions for some time with two very well-known chains that are seriously interested in taking the space.              :twoface:

Exactly what I mean..... you not had a Burger King recently?  Top notch!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 02:04:59 PM
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Please let there be a Burger King in it.... PLEASE!!!
Quote from above.....
These will be top-quality restaurants, and I’ve been in discussions for some time with two very well-known chains that are seriously interested in taking the space.              :twoface:
Exactly what I mean..... you not had a Burger King recently?  Top notch!
I used to love BK, but I have not had a decent burger for years, so more or less given up,  where do you go ?

I know it would make sense to have fast food outlets there, but I was rather hoping for something a bit up market taking advantage of the evening view, plus fast food outlets create a lot of litter.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 08, 2017, 02:13:38 PM
Off topic sorry...
Steve, about once a month I find myself up near Flint, and treat myself to a visit to that BK on the A55 which used to be Little Chef.  It has a Premier Inn attached I think?

We need a thread about burgers, as there are some great ones in the 3 Towns area, (and some disappointing ones too).    One a month I say, everything in moderation! 
 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 03:10:36 PM
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Err...yes, but to me, anyway, the only difference appears to be a coat of paint.
If you look more closely, you'll see there are actually quite  a few changes to the detail of the design:

I can't really see them, Dave. The colour's changed, and perhaps the micro-positioning of a few trims, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 08, 2017, 03:40:07 PM
.....the first time I have ever seen 'top-quality restaurants' and 'Burger King' on the same page.......

Are aspirations for the site really that low?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 03:41:54 PM
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Err...yes, but to me, anyway, the only difference appears to be a coat of paint.
If you look more closely, you'll see there are actually quite  a few changes to the detail of the design:
I can't really see them, Dave. The colour's changed, and perhaps the micro-positioning of a few trims, but that's about it.
I agree, little change, I would like to see it at least one level lower and have a tiered end towards the town, with an improved roof line.
I know any build is going to cause problems, and the two year time scale on this one, in such a tight area is going to be a nightmare.   &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 03:48:24 PM
Perhaps BMD would care to comment? He's the design expert in here.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 08, 2017, 04:45:48 PM
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.....the first time I have ever seen 'top-quality restaurants' and 'Burger King' on the same page.......

Are aspirations for the site really that low?

It's in a mass-market, seaside town at one end of a pier..... with a low to medium demographic of visitor.... what do you REALLY think you're going to get?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 08, 2017, 04:56:28 PM
I see minor cosmetic changes only, mainly the colour, it's still a hideous, oversized block of flats at the epicentre of tourism!  The two massive restaurants are so large that they could well put other restaurants in town out of business! I think they are a ploy to help get the plans through. I doubt they will get filled and when they don't the space will be converted into more flats. ( the original documents in the library last year said it had been designed so that it was adaptable for future changes!!) I've heard, from what I think is a reliable source, that there are covenants on the deeds which stipulate that no alcohol can be sold from the site and food can only be sold to theatre audiences....so what restaurant chains would be interested in it if they can't sell alcohol I wonder? It is an over development of the footprint, it would completely change all viewpoints into the town and from all points in it. The picture still shows Waldron's kiosks by the pillars with access to the pier. The pier owner has not agreed to move his kiosks to provide this access...and I'm told he won't be doing so. Therefore there will be no through way from North Parade to the pier as Waldron is claiming. It in no way conforms to the CCBC 2012 Development Brief. And as for building it, how will he do it (I've written to him twice to ask but he has not done me the courtesy of replying).  Where will the portacabins for his site office and the facilities for the workforce be located where will the tons and tons of building materials be unloaded and housed (securely) until used? Where will all the construction vehicles park? Where will any plant and heavy machinery be kept? How will he fulfill H&S requirements to protect people on the pier...there is no room between the pier kiosks and the old iron pillars to erecting scaffolding! So North Parade from the Church Walks roundabout will have to be closed off and used as the building site....this will kill off not only my business but all of the other businesses on North Parade, Happy Valley Road, Marine Drive, including the toll road revenue and the bus tours. Two year build...he is having a laugh. It's taking 18 months trouble the new lifeboat station, a fraction of the size. I bet it will take 3 years or more given the Constraints of access and site problems.  Given the problem with the Victorian sewage drains will the sewers be up to the job of effluent from 54 flats and two huge restaurants? On the original plan there was nowhere for any bins!! Who will want to pay over the odds to live in "luxury" flats on top of a pier with the associated noise and food smells wafting ip..and those flats on the North side will have no view and be dark all day....would you buy one? My house and the two either side will have a complete loss of privacy as dozens of flat Windows will have direct line of sight into our buildings. Loss of light all morning will mean we have to use electric lights...hardly good for the environment let alone our bills.  The whole thing is ill conceived as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2017, 05:20:29 PM
CMG    I'm sorry to have to say this but I raised this point about another planning application that I was objecting to.     I had a face to face meeting with the Chief Planning officer for CCBC and his exact words were that "the Covenant is not worth the paper it is written on"  and it will not affect a planning application.
I agree with everything you say though and had a look at the revised plans and they tower above those hotels in North Parade and the top of the Headland Hotel in Hill Terrace is just about visible.
Although you cannot object to your view being spoilt you can object to a loss of light and privacy and some hotels will definitely be affected by the building.
I was advised by Dwr Cymru that you cannot build over a main sewer but if the reports I've read are correct Mr Waldron's men have already drilled on their site and created a stink there when they hit the Grand's sewer system.
Waldron uses a lot of buzz words but I hope that CCBC are not fooled by them as he has already gone back on things he had already promised
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 08, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
Hi Hugo, I do realise the Covenent point is nothing to do with planning and is not a valid objection...but it might put restaurants off if they think there could be a legal problem.  I really don't think the restaurants will materialise. I would lay odds on it ending up as all flats ...IF it gets approved.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Neil on March 08, 2017, 07:03:14 PM
I am surprised that people who have commented on the two designs cannot see the difference between the horizontal orientation of the first design and the vertical orientation of the second design which is more in keeping with the surrounding buildings.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 07:39:55 PM
That's interesting, because examining the photos carefully it seems to me that the first design is more vertically oriented, thus conveying an impression of greater height. But the sad fact is that the differences are mainly cosmetic, IMV. They're both concrete and steel, both boxy-looking and both have the appearance redolent of the 1960s council flat building boom in the major cities.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 08, 2017, 07:43:04 PM
I have had another look at the photos, and I see what you mean, however despite being a bit more in keeping it is still, I feel an over development, ........another thought came to mind when looking at the photos why would they even submit the original design, .....AW says he only wants the best for Llandudno, so why  &shake& .....doesnt say much for his character let alone his buildings.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 08, 2017, 08:08:43 PM
All arguments considered, it's The Grand Hotel that's the real eyesore.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Moelycrio on March 08, 2017, 09:03:12 PM
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Well I am going to stick my neck out and say I think it looks good. We aren't going to ever recreate the original and I am not one for pastiche with fake columns and plastic moulding. I think it looks modern but sympathetic, which is what i think would be best for the site.
I think it's a great improvement on the original design and also fits in far better with the Grand Hotel next door.

It's much better than the first design. Realistically, this is as good as it will get. It juxtaposes nicely with the Victorian pier but makes the dump that is The Grand lok worse. We should all be worried about the construction disruption though, its not an easy site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Cambrian on March 08, 2017, 09:58:31 PM
Just a couple of factual things.

The pipe from the Grand is legally a drain, not a sewer and is not in any case vested in Welsh Water as a public sewer.

A covenant can be set aside by application to the Lands Tribunal who normally take a contemporary and reasonable view.  Many of the covenants relating to alcohol were imposed a time when, for example, our pubs were prohibited from opening on Sundays.  Times and attitudes do change. A covenant can only be enforced by whoever benefits from the covenant and not by the public at large. A developer can, of course, reach an agreement with the beneficiary to remove the covenant.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 09, 2017, 09:37:08 AM
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I see minor cosmetic changes only, mainly the colour, it's still a hideous, oversized block of flats at the epicentre of tourism!  The two massive restaurants are so large that they could well put other restaurants in town out of business! I think they are a ploy to help get the plans through. I doubt they will get filled and when they don't the space will be converted into more flats. ( the original documents in the library last year said it had been designed so that it was adaptable for future changes!!) I've heard, from what I think is a reliable source, that there are covenants on the deeds which stipulate that no alcohol can be sold from the site and food can only be sold to theatre audiences....so what restaurant chains would be interested in it if they can't sell alcohol I wonder? It is an over development of the footprint, it would completely change all viewpoints into the town and from all points in it. The picture still shows Waldron's kiosks by the pillars with access to the pier. The pier owner has not agreed to move his kiosks to provide this access...and I'm told he won't be doing so. Therefore there will be no through way from North Parade to the pier as Waldron is claiming. It in no way conforms to the CCBC 2012 Development Brief. And as for building it, how will he do it (I've written to him twice to ask but he has not done me the courtesy of replying).  Where will the portacabins for his site office and the facilities for the workforce be located where will the tons and tons of building materials be unloaded and housed (securely) until used? Where will all the construction vehicles park? Where will any plant and heavy machinery be kept? How will he fulfill H&S requirements to protect people on the pier...there is no room between the pier kiosks and the old iron pillars to erecting scaffolding! So North Parade from the Church Walks roundabout will have to be closed off and used as the building site....this will kill off not only my business but all of the other businesses on North Parade, Happy Valley Road, Marine Drive, including the toll road revenue and the bus tours. Two year build...he is having a laugh. It's taking 18 months trouble the new lifeboat station, a fraction of the size. I bet it will take 3 years or more given the Constraints of access and site problems.  Given the problem with the Victorian sewage drains will the sewers be up to the job of effluent from 54 flats and two huge restaurants? On the original plan there was nowhere for any bins!! Who will want to pay over the odds to live in "luxury" flats on top of a pier with the associated noise and food smells wafting ip..and those flats on the North side will have no view and be dark all day....would you buy one? My house and the two either side will have a complete loss of privacy as dozens of flat Windows will have direct line of sight into our buildings. Loss of light all morning will mean we have to use electric lights...hardly good for the environment let alone our bills.  The whole thing is ill conceived as far as I'm concerned.
So....you're not that keen on it then?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2017, 09:57:03 AM
Cambrian,   I was just saying about my personal experience with Dwr Cymru when they put in an objection to me building a conservatory  at the rear of my house.
I phoned them up and was told that they had objected because I was building on top of a main drain.  I asked them exactly what they meant by a main drain and their explanation was because the drain was a sewer pipe from adjoining properties.     I argued that no main drain came past the back of my property and they said it did and had a map to prove that it did.
To cut a long story short, they were wrong and I was right because the main drain is in the front of my house.
My point is that this drain only starts from two doors away and passes my house for about 100 yards then enters the main sewer in the street.
If Dwr Cymru can object to that then surely they must object to an industrial amount of stuff that flows from the Grand's drain or whatever it is called now.  If they didn't object then they would be failing in their responsibility.
As for Covenants then I think they are a non starter in the case of the Pier Pavilion.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 09, 2017, 03:26:30 PM
I know absolutely nothing of legal matters but I do wonder about these covenants....what if someone tries to enforce them in order to put the "two international chains" off? I can think of someone who might try to have them enforced (not me I'm not in a position to). If the covenents are legal wouldn't they have to be contested by Waldron to get them removed? 

Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats! 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 09, 2017, 04:08:50 PM
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Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 09, 2017, 04:17:53 PM
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Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?

I agree, and am I correct in saying they would be the only non hotel restaurants on the prom.?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on March 09, 2017, 04:23:11 PM
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Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?

That's the problem with this world. Why can't you just look at the view without the need of eating as well? Just like people can't watch a film without needing to eat. If anything eating is a distraction from these things!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2017, 04:35:04 PM
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Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?

It would be fantastic doing that Dave, but two high quality restaurants in the same place?      CMG is not alone in being cynical, I'm afraid that I am too.    I would put developers, bankers and politicians in the same bracket for being open, honest and trustworthy.      &shake&

Let's take Anwyl for instance and see what they have done:-
Step 1    Apply for planning permission for 25 apartments and keep the central and original structure
Step 2    Leave the building to deteriorate and then apply to demolish it and build an extra few apartments and submit a plan that fits in with the surroundings
Step 3    Wait until the last month before the expiry date and then submit an application for nearly twice as many flats and a building that has no link with the surrounding buildings
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: mull on March 09, 2017, 04:52:23 PM
All these new flats will presumably have balconies overlooking the bay.
Has anyone thought about the smell of burgers, fried onions, fish and chips wafting up from below together with the seagulls perching on the handrail waiting to swoop on the takeaway food below, plus the noise from the Golden Goose and other amusments and stalls.

Certainly does nothing for me !   &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 09, 2017, 06:48:53 PM
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All these new flats will presumably have balconies overlooking the bay.
Has anyone thought about the smell of burgers, fried onions, fish and chips wafting up from below together with the seagulls perching on the handrail waiting to swoop on the takeaway food below, plus the noise from the Golden Goose and other amusments and stalls.

Certainly does nothing for me !   &shake& &shake&

I could not agree more, and I know that I am not the only person that believes that the burger bars, amusement arcades and tat stalls, together with the accompanying dreadful noise and smell is by far the biggest blight on Llandudno and is totally off-putting to many visitors and locals alike, who would love to ample along the pier to the better artisan stalls and superb views of the bay, but refuse to run the gauntlet of noise and smell. I, and many others find it appalling and sadly, we don't take our visitors along the pier. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 09, 2017, 11:00:44 PM
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All these new flats will presumably have balconies overlooking the bay.
Has anyone thought about the smell of burgers, fried onions, fish and chips wafting up from below together with the seagulls perching on the handrail waiting to swoop on the takeaway food below, plus the noise from the Golden Goose and other amusments and stalls.

Certainly does nothing for me !   &shake& &shake&

I could not agree more, and I know that I am not the only person that believes that the burger bars, amusement arcades and tat stalls, together with the accompanying dreadful noise and smell is by far the biggest blight on Llandudno and is totally off-putting to many visitors and locals alike, who would love to ample along the pier to the better artisan stalls and superb views of the bay, but refuse to run the gauntlet of noise and smell. I, and many others find it appalling and sadly, we don't take our visitors along the pier.

There are no 'better artisan stalls' Bosun, 75% are empty now.
Tat sells, food and drink sells... and they can sustain the high rents which are demanded these days.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 10, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
Aah, that's sad, I'm sorry to hear that. And it indicates the direction of things to come. So much for the luxury apartments.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 11, 2017, 02:44:44 PM
These developers attempt all types of scams to enable them to maximise the potential for the sites.    Anwyl's tricks at the Penmorfa Hotel in West Shore is a classic example of how they can say one thing and try to do another.    The Castle Hotel at Deganwy is another case and it is happening too often in the area for it to be a coincidence.
I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 13, 2017, 11:26:51 AM
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These developers attempt all types of scams to enable them to maximise the potential for the sites.    Anwyl's tricks at the Penmorfa Hotel in West Shore is a classic example of how they can say one thing and try to do another.    The Castle Hotel at Deganwy is another case and it is happening too often in the area for it to be a coincidence.
I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.
Hugo, I know you are not keen on Facebook, but some good links.....
Just had an Email from FLAG advising their continuing objection to the new pier dev. plans, I also noticed their support for Friends of West Shore against Anwyls plans.
https://m.facebook.com/pg/Llandudnopierpavilionsite/posts/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=1
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2017, 02:06:51 PM
Don't get me going on Facebook Steve       :rage:

But seriously though there are some good points raised on objecting to this planning application for the Pier Pavilion.   I haven't looked at the plans for the development in detail but it's in a conservation area and I'm sure that the developer has not followed all the guidelines that go with it.
My experience with developers in this area over recent years is not to trust them one bit and then you won't be disappointed.  Like I've said already,  in terms of honesty and trust worthiness I put the developers in the same category as bankers and politicians.
This application is so important that it will go to the full planning Committee anyway but the more people that object then the Committee will know the strength of feeling about the issue.
Objections are counted individually, so for instance if a husband and  wife make separate objections then that counts as two objections.   It is not limited to one per household
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 13, 2017, 02:28:41 PM
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I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.
I wouldn't have thought so, in the longer term the rental income from the restaurants will be far more lucrative than the apartments one-off sale price.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2017, 04:14:39 PM
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I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.
I wouldn't have thought so, in the longer term the rental income from the restaurants will be far more lucrative than the apartments one-off sale price.

You could well be correct Dave, but two top quality restaurants in that building?       Only time will tell if the plan is genuine or not.    As a matter of interest has he now bought the site?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 13, 2017, 04:35:55 PM
He doesn't need to buy the site until planning permission is granted.
However, his option to buy it expires very soon, so he may have to pay to extend that.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 13, 2017, 04:40:31 PM
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I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.
I wouldn't have thought so, in the longer term the rental income from the restaurants will be far more lucrative than the apartments one-off sale price.

You could well be correct Dave, but two top quality restaurants in that building?       Only time will tell if the plan is genuine or not.    As a matter of interest has he now bought the site?

I may be getting cynical in my old age, but in my experience, luxury flats and top quality restaurants do not go hand-in-hand with burger bars, amusement arcades and tat stalls, together with the accompanying dreadful noise and smells. Strangely, that sort of ambience doesn't actually attract those who invest in fine dining establishments and them's that enjoy sipping Pimm's on the balcony of their 'luxury apartment'........
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2017, 06:49:30 PM
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He doesn't need to buy the site until planning permission is granted.
However, his option to buy it expires very soon, so he may have to pay to extend that.

That's exactly what Anwyl Construction did with the Penmorfa Hotel and you wouldn't expect any business person to buy the site unless they are able to get the required permission.
In this case Mr Waldron may have to pay extra to extend the option to buy
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: BMD on March 13, 2017, 07:55:50 PM
Only just had a look at the new Pier Pavilion development submissions. I suspect this version is kind of what they intended all along. Cynic that I am, I think the previous version was made to look as unsympathetic to the surroundings as possible - not just wrong in basic concept (which is the real problem), but cosmetically it looked wrong in every possible way (as if they had a computer-design program with a "First Submission Crassly Unsympathetic" option.

The new version's appearance is obviously more sympathetic to the surroundings, but it's the same oversized, overbearing, heavy-handed concept. The developer is quoted as saying that he "has worked hard to design a building sympathetic to the seaside resort’s Victorian landscape and surroundings."

Well, he's failed miserably on that score, in my opinion. But if his real aim was to cram as much money-generating bulk into the space available, regardless of how it affects the area, then he's "succeeded".

The point to me is that Llandudno should set the bar much, much, much higher than this. It's such a beautiful town, rich in architecture, stunning scenery - it's got everything. And this is one of the prime spots. Yet this is the kind of thing you'd expect to see built at any characterless urban development or resort. Tragic.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: hollins on March 13, 2017, 08:54:45 PM
Well said BMD.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 14, 2017, 07:20:41 AM
Thanks, BMD.  An informed opinion, and I particularly liked the phrase "computer-design program with a "First Submission Crassly Unsympathetic" option.
"
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 14, 2017, 10:55:53 AM
Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: hollins on March 14, 2017, 11:35:44 AM
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Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.


I like this idea. It suits its surroundings and would make a great entertainment pavilion.
I like the fact that it is not too tall and doesn't overshadow the buildings that are there now.
Not that anything will look good against the decaying hotel next to it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 14, 2017, 12:33:29 PM
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Thinking about the comments, it would be good to see photo examples of the sort of building people would like to see on the Pier Pavilion site.

...............you were asking for trouble ....... and it's started!

This could be quite amusing.....
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: BMD on March 14, 2017, 08:27:06 PM
We're probably stuck with the sheer size and height of it. If that were a concern for Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw or The Design Commission for Wales, it would presumably already have been raised in their consultations with the developer prior to the design. As to the building's appearance, this is from Creu Architecture's original press release:

Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.

Commenting on one of the early design proposals, a Design Commission for Wales report stated that the proposals should avoid trying to replicate details from the former Pavilion and the existing structures in the vicinity and that simplification was needed to achieve the level of quality required given the context, prominence and size of the building. Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing. http://creuarchitecture.com/2016/11/creus-press-statement-regarding-the-pavilion-site-llandudno-8th-november-2016/ (http://creuarchitecture.com/2016/11/creus-press-statement-regarding-the-pavilion-site-llandudno-8th-november-2016/)

It worries me when people responsible for the design equate "quality" with "simplification". Skips and multi-storey car parks have "simple" designs. Most large buildings require a considerable amount of humanising detail and a lot of design finesse to avoid looking monolithic, oppressive and overbearing. They don't have to copy Victorian design, but they could do with learning some basics from the Victorians.

I would've thought that as an absolute minimum, they need to significantly step-back the upper storeys.

Creu Architecture seems to be a modest practice with no experience of this size/prominence of project.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DVT on March 14, 2017, 09:57:16 PM
Who came up with that criteria? ... had they no foresight that it is totally against the majority of the people who live in the town and who will receive no, or very little, benefit from the monstrosity that is proposed.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 14, 2017, 10:40:16 PM
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We're probably stuck with the sheer size and height of it. If that were a concern for Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw
Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.

Commenting on one of the early design proposals, a Design Commission for Wales report stated that the proposals should avoid trying to replicate details from the former Pavilion and the existing structures in the vicinity and that simplification was needed to achieve the level of quality required given the context, prominence and size of the building. Based on this feedback, the proposals were simplified in terms of both form and detailing. http://creuarchitecture.com/2016/11/creus-press-statement-regarding-the-pavilion-site-llandudno-8th-november-2016/ (http://creuarchitecture.com/2016/11/creus-press-statement-regarding-the-pavilion-site-llandudno-8th-november-2016/)

If the allegations above were true then the instructions given to the developer and the architects would have come from Public Offices and they would be subject to public viewing and the FOI  Act.      It will be interesting to see if the developer will produce the evidence when the application is heard before the CCBC Planning Committee.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: mull on March 15, 2017, 05:59:37 PM
The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.

What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.

With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.

Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 15, 2017, 07:02:32 PM
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The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.
What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.
With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.
Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.
I agree, .....but to find backers for a place of entertainment, against the guaranteed profit from flats is the problem, the ideal situation is to find a developer willing to use the basement and ground floor for entertainment and a few levels for flats to pay for it.
I think even the most basic build these days is in the millions, look at the Skip and the new lifeboat station, and looking back over this thread from 2010 they tried for years to find a backer.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on March 15, 2017, 08:06:44 PM
it will be interesting to see how the planning officers get round there own planning policy

Affordable Housing
4.1.
Context
There is a pressing need for affordable housing in Conwy. The Council has undertaken a Housing Market Assessment that demonstrates there is a need for affordable dwellings. 
4.2.
The need for affordable housing is a material planning consideration and an essential element in contributing to community regeneration and social inclusion. All new residential developments, including conversions and mixed use schemes will be considered for developer provision or contributions.
4.3.
Justification
The detailed policy basis and justification for seeking developer provision or contributions in respect of Affordable Housing for local needs is set out in:-
4.3.1.
National planning policy guidance:-
Planning Policy Wales (2010)
TAN 2 – Planning and Affordable Housing
4.3.2.
Deposit Three Towns Forum Development Plan, notably Policy HOU/2 – Affordable Housing for Local Need
4.3.3.
Three Towns Forum Housing Market Assessment Phase 1 (2007)
4.3.4.
Conwy Affordable Housing Delivery Statement (2007-2011)
4.3.5.
LDP Background Paper 9: Conwy Affordable Housing Viability Study (2010)
4.3.6.
LDP Background Paper 23: Affordable Housing Needs Calculation (2010)
4.4.
Threshold for Provision
Affordable Housing Requirement
The deposit Three Towns Forum Development Plan (Policy HOU2) outlines the need for affordable housing and states that the Council will seek affordable housing provision on all residential developments (i.e. 1 dwelling and above).
4.5.
The expectation is that the affordable housing will be provided on-site as part of the development.  However, off-site provision or commuted payments will be acceptable for development proposals consisting of 3 or fewer dwellings and may be acceptable for proposals consisting of 3 or more dwellings in exceptional circumstances, provided there is sufficient justification.
4.6.
The reasoned justification for Policy HOU2 of the deposit Local Development Plan states that the Council will seek to secure a minimum of 30% affordable housing on all residential developments.  
4.7.
The table below provides an overview to Policy HOU/2, showing at a glance what type of housing (in terms of affordable and market) is acceptable at locations within the Plan area:
Table:  Guide to Policy HOU/2 of the LDP

* No AHLN need will be permitted outside the settlement boundary of Trefriw due to physical constraints 
Notes:
Minimum and maximum levels will be subject to viability testing.
Off-site commuted sums will be acceptable on 3 dwellings or fewer for schemes in the Urban Development Strategy Area, Llanrwst and Tier 1 main villages or on schemes greater than 3 dwellings in justified circumstances.
4.8.
The Council supports the creation of sustainable, mixed and balanced communities.  In order to avoid the negative implications of social exclusion, affordable homes within housing developments should be evenly distributed across the site and not disproportionally allocated to the periphery or in one particular area.  The Council will require affordable homes to be grouped together in clusters of no more than 5-10 properties.
4.9.
Viability
The general presumption is that the cost of providing affordable housing will be offset in the negotiation of the land purchase or option price.  Where an applicant proposes to demonstrate that there are particular costs (e.g. abnormal costs, requirements for transport infrastructure, community facilities, open space or sustainable construction) that cannot be offset by depreciating the land value or where they cannot be recouped in the open market sale price of the new homes, a financial appraisal will have to be supplied. 
4.10.
The Council accepts that housing delivery must be maintained and if, following the completion of a financial appraisal, a developer is able to demonstrate genuine viability problems, a revision may be agreed either to the overall scale of affordable housing provision, or to the property mix and/or tenure type.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 16, 2017, 04:23:32 PM
The new plan to re-develop the Pier Pavilion site in Llandudno has been dubbed a ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ by a pressure group.
They said: “We can see very little difference, apart from a few minor cosmetic tweaks and a change of colour.
“The proposed building is still much too high, and too great a mass for the footprint of the site.

“Also the change of use to residential is still unacceptable.
“We continue to strongly oppose this application and urge everyone who loves Llandudno to do so as well by putting their objections in writing to the council.”

Christian Roberts, FLAG chairman, added: “This is not a building that many residents or visitors will ‘be proud of’.
“It is a complete over-development of the site and considering the importance of this site we do not believe that the mainly residential use proposed is right for the epicentre of tourism in Llandudno.
“The future success of Llandudno is our primary focus.
“What Llandudno needs is indoor entertainments for its visitors, not more flats which will be out of reach of the majority of the local people in need of housing.”
They are now urging local authority planners to oppose the scheme - citing a planning brief they say the council drew up in response to a previous “unsuitable” hotel plan for the site.

Mr Roberts added: “FLAG is continuing to fight this proposed development as it is not the right one for this site.

"We sincerely hope that the Council will see sense and that the planning department will enforce the 2012 Development Brief stipulations, which this developer is quite clearly ignoring, and throw this plan out.” ref DP
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2017, 04:50:15 PM
This is the application that has been made in the week ended 13th March 2017

Application No: 0/43784 Grid Reference: 278335,382926
Application Type: Listed Building Consent Case Officer: Dave Watson
Determination Level Planning Committee Team: DC West Team
Received Date : 03/03/2017 Registered Date: 09/03/2017
Development Type(s): New Development
Ward: Gogarth
Community Council: Cyngor Tref Llandudno Town Council
Location: Former Pier Pavillion Llandudno Conwy LL30 2LP
Re development to create 54 No. apartments, commercial (A3) floorspace, kiosks and
related access and parking and incorporating refurbishment of "listed" colonnade. (Listed
Building Consent)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on March 16, 2017, 07:25:02 PM
Took a walk along by the pier today talking about the site with some people , if as. Adam says he won't let Waldron onto the pier we were visualising the chaos on happy valley road ,the trees lamposts and even the zebra crossing will be in the way ,just hope planning looks at it closer .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2017, 09:24:10 AM
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The building that burnt down was a place of entertainment so why is the rebuild being changed to an apartment block.
What is needed is an new entertainment complex fit for the today with attractions that will bring people into the town to spend money. That is what the Victorians did and made Llandudno the resort it is.
With a little imagination and the right backing this site could be made into something people of all ages from the North of England, Potteries and Midlands would want to visit in Llandudno.
Afew flats are not going to bring in any visitors.
I agree, .....but to find backers for a place of entertainment, against the guaranteed profit from flats is the problem, the ideal situation is to find a developer willing to use the basement and ground floor for entertainment and a few levels for flats to pay for it.
I think even the most basic build these days is in the millions, look at the Skip and the new lifeboat station, and looking back over this thread from 2010 they tried for years to find a backer.
That's it in a nutshell. It's a difficult and expensive site to develop.  No-one would have liked more than me to see a replica of the original Pavilion on that site (and I've put ideas forward for its rebirth as a leisure/entertainment complex several times) but it sadly seems that nobody out there is prepared to fund such a project.

I'm concerned that people who are opposed to this development may believe that another developer will suddenly pop up to build a replica of the original Pavilion building if they oppose Waldron's plans. I believe the chances of that happening are approximately zero (otherwise it would have happened years ago) and the end result is that we will be left with a derelict site for another 20+ years. That cannot be allowed to happen.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2017, 01:04:47 PM
Neither can a totally unsuitable building be allowed to happen just because the site has been an eyesore for 20 years.    Leisure facilities and entertainment have been on that site and it's time that more consideration was given to the younger generation.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 17, 2017, 04:19:33 PM
Adam Williams the pier owner would like to develop it as part of the pier (which it used to be!) I was informed that Waldron had "pipped him to the post". 

Waldron's Plan is actually fraudulent as it states "existing kiosks to be removed".  Adam Williams has said he has never been asked to move the kiosks and has no intention of doing so.  Presumably his legal people have checked for any rights of way. 

I was also told yeapsterday by a friend who has spoken to Waldron that he said if he gets planning permission he will refurbish the colonnade (so that's his sweetener eh!). Well as the whole of North Parade beyond the Church Walks Roundabout will have to be closed off to provide him with an ancillary building site for his portacabins, machinery, building supply storage and parking for contractor vehicles( because there is no room on the pavilion site he is building on every inch)...he will have easy access to the colonnade won't he!  If not easy access to his main site!!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 17, 2017, 04:48:11 PM
I did wonder why AW never took it on, however that, I think would have been a different kind of headache, leaning towards a funfair type attraction etc. Not what we need, but I am not sure what would fit in and be a viable proposition.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2017, 04:56:06 PM
Steve, that's what was there previously with the Tuscon's amusement place and as a teenager I've spent many hours there.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 17, 2017, 05:14:08 PM
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Steve, that's what was there previously with the Tuscon's amusement place and as a teenager I've spent many hours there.   
I didnt know Llandudno that well, most of my early teens were in Rhos and the Bay,  as I said I am not sure what is needed but I think  we could do better.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Nemesis on March 17, 2017, 06:16:20 PM
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Adam Williams the pier owner would like to develop it as part of the pier (which it used to be!) I was informed that Waldron had "pipped him to the post". 

Waldron's Plan is actually fraudulent as it states "existing kiosks to be removed".  Adam Williams has said he has never been asked to move the kiosks and has no intention of doing so.  Presumably his legal people have checked for any rights of way. 

I was also told yeapsterday by a friend who has spoken to Waldron that he said if he gets planning permission he will refurbish the colonnade (so that's his sweetener eh!). Well as the whole of North Parade beyond the Church Walks Roundabout will have to be closed off to provide him with an ancillary building site for his portacabins, machinery, building supply storage and parking for contractor vehicles( because there is no room on the pavilion site he is building on every inch)...he will have easy access to the colonnade won't he!  If not easy access to his main site!!!

This all sounds as though various places are going to have very difficult access during the proposed works.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Neil on March 18, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
After considering the revised plans since publication I think the plan would be acceptable if two or preferably three storeys were removed from the design, I doubt this would be acceptable to the developer, but I don't care because I can see no eyesore or derelict building on the site and would be happy for it to remain as it is until somebody comes up with a better plan.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 18, 2017, 06:26:45 PM
Maybe that is his intention all along. When it gets turned down he comes back with no restaurants but flats on those levels and two stories lower....I would still object to flats on that site though.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Neil on March 18, 2017, 10:14:51 PM
I think best plan for the site would be for the council to refuse all planning applications that involve very rich people trying to get richer, who have no concern for the community or the view at all! until the value of the site is reduced to a level that the council can buy it and turn it into a children's playground or other project valued by the people and ratepayers of Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 18, 2017, 11:14:38 PM
Neil,  your suggestions sounds too simple, but I must admit that I can't fault them at all.     If this site was screened off very sympathetically so you couldn't see it ( or even smell it)  then no one could say that it was an eyesore any longer.
It has gone on for so long that a few more years won't make any difference but in the meantime CCBC could do a compulsory purchase on it and then develop it into a project that would benefit the people of Llandudno and not those that just want to exploit the situation.

One Councillor suggested a compulsory purchase on the land and make it into a park for locals and visitors alike and the idea was ridiculed, why I don't know because they were the only person to come up with a sensible suggestion or any suggestion for that matter.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 19, 2017, 08:26:37 AM
It's a shame Mostyn didn't buy it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2017, 09:20:16 AM
They seem to have something to do with it, which is a bit of a mystery considering that they don't own the freehold on the site.   The only thing I can think of is that access to the site is from the promenade and Mostyn Estates does own the freehold on that land.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Neil on March 19, 2017, 09:53:56 AM
Hugo, The councillor that came up with the sensible suggestion that was ridiculed probably wasn't a Mason.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2017, 10:30:42 PM
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I wonder if CMG could be right and that Mr Waldron is trying to pull a fast one with his restaurants, after all he has gone back already on what he originally promised.
I wouldn't have thought so, in the longer term the rental income from the restaurants will be far more lucrative than the apartments one-off sale price.

i was looking at the FLAG  Website earlier today to see what it was saying about the proposed Pier Pavilion application.   Amongst all the comments was a bit about the restaurants.     In it it quoted some of the conditions in the application, chapter and verse and in it I read that if the developer cannot find suitable occupiers for the restaurants then the developer reserves the right to convert the space for the restaurants into apartments.
Now if that doesn't show you how untrustworthy these developers are then nothing will.       
I've looked again for it but can't find the article so I can't quote the exact details but I do know what I've read.
Anwyl's application for the Penmorfa Hotel site  is obvious in it's blatant deception but this one is more underhand and sneaky
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 20, 2017, 11:23:22 PM
There'll be a Burger King, and if we're lucky a Pizza Hut, I'm telling you!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 21, 2017, 08:25:00 AM
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I think best plan for the site would be for the council to refuse all planning applications that involve very rich people trying to get richer, who have no concern for the community or the view at all! until the value of the site is reduced to a level that the council can buy it and turn it into a children's playground or other project valued by the people and ratepayers of Llandudno.
If we follow your logic to its ultimate conclusion, then Llandudno itself wouldn't exist...  ;D

"Have you heard? That Lord Mostyn wants to ruin our beautiful sand dunes by building a seaside resort with loads of ugly hotels all over them."

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 21, 2017, 08:40:20 AM
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i was looking at the FLAG  Website earlier today to see what it was saying about the proposed Pier Pavilion application.   Amongst all the comments was a bit about the restaurants.     In it it quoted some of the conditions in the application, chapter and verse and in it I read that if the developer cannot find suitable occupiers for the restaurants then the developer reserves the right to convert the space for the restaurants into apartments.
Now if that doesn't show you how untrustworthy these developers are then nothing will.       
I've looked again for it but can't find the article so I can't quote the exact details but I do know what I've read.
Anwyl's application for the Penmorfa Hotel site  is obvious in it's blatant deception but this one is more underhand and sneaky
Planning permission doesn't work like that though, Hugo. Any change of use from the agreed permission would require a completely new Planning Application. And does anyone seriously believe that restaurants in a prime position like that wouldn't be let immediately?

FLAG say that:

"FLAG would like to see the site developed as a major attraction for the town, a modern day Pavilion for the benefit of the local people and hundreds of thousands of tourists that visit. By moving forward with a sympathetic development that will attract new tourism and a younger demographic, its future will be secured for many years to come. And with it the town’s continuing prosperity."

Well, yes. That would be fantastic. But the problem is that no developer wants to do that. In 20+ years, the only proposals that have come forward are for a very large hotel or the current proposed development. There's nothing else on offer, sadly.

And let me ask this question...where were all the people now talking about how wonderful the old Pavilion was, when it was left rotting away for 10 years? I was there at that time working next door on the Pier in the early 90s and I used to spend the odd lunch break with a hammer and nails, trying to seal up doors and windows in the Pavilion to prevent vandals getting in to destroy the building. If only all the people who are so vociferous now had banded together then, we could have saved the original building and still have it in use today.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2017, 09:20:44 AM
Dave,  I'm only quoting what I read somewhere on the FLAG website and the conditions that were in the application.    As for how planning permission works then I'm at a loss to understand some of the rules.
Take the eyesore at the other end of the prom namely Ysgol Gogarth.   They applied to build it and then it was found that they had built it too high.
Simple solution, retrospective planning application that was passed with no problem.

There are ways and means to get around planning rules, just ask Anwyl's they are turning into experts on the subject.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 21, 2017, 12:39:26 PM
Before Waldron came in with his digger the site looked OK in that it was completely overgrown, so it was green and most of the rubble etc was hidden by this growth. Also unless you were on the Great Orme you really couldn't see the hole from anywhere else, certainly not from the promenade. The eyesore was the rusty old colonnade pillars still standing. Now, however it is a total mess, all created by Waldron...yet another ploy to get people saying do something...anything to hide that ugly hole! If he doesn't get permission (please God) I hope the actual owner and the council make him tidy the site up.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 21, 2017, 12:41:29 PM
Sorry don't know why the photos are showing upside down.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 21, 2017, 04:00:46 PM
I agree, a virtually hidden empty hole is better than an oversized monstrosity. Fill it with earth and landscape it if you must but wait until the right developer comes along with the right proposals which put Llandudno first and not just a money-making exercise we will all live to regret very quickly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Neil on March 21, 2017, 04:27:23 PM
Yes some locals at the time almost certainly said something like that, but I think we all agree that the Victorians involved in developing Llandudno made a first class job of producing a holiday resort that has stood the test of time and it's very important that it stays that way. The proposed building looks Art Deco in design and I know there are many fine examples of Art Deco buildings in the area which is probably why they have gone for this design, but I think it's much to big.
It seems amazing to me that the same councillors who made a hotelier remove a oval sign because it wasn't Victorian could pass this scheme.
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I think best plan for the site would be for the council to refuse all planning applications that involve very rich people trying to get richer, who have no concern for the community or the view at all! until the value of the site is reduced to a level that the council can buy it and turn it into a children's playground or other project valued by the people and ratepayers of Llandudno.
If we follow your logic to its ultimate conclusion, then Llandudno itself wouldn't exist...  ;D

"Have you heard? That Lord Mostyn wants to ruin our beautiful sand dunes by building a seaside resort with loads of ugly hotels all over them."


Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: hollins on March 21, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
Totally agree with the last two posts and CMG's photos illustrate the points well.
What an awe inspiring vista of the sweeping bay and the line of coordinating hotels.
I don't see any flat roofs there.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2017, 01:03:25 PM
The extraordinary meeting at the Llandudno Town Hall tonight at 6.00pm to discuss the proposed plans for the Pier Pavilion should be interesting and quite lively



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjRlcLLlerSAhUkCsAKHd8IBQAQFggfMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eventgoat.co.uk%2Fllandudno%2Fllandudno-town-council-extraordinary-planning-meeting%2F&usg=AFQjCNF6ZC7Cq30pwVemidufqHggvLqMpQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjRlcLLlerSAhUkCsAKHd8IBQAQFggfMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eventgoat.co.uk%2Fllandudno%2Fllandudno-town-council-extraordinary-planning-meeting%2F&usg=AFQjCNF6ZC7Cq30pwVemidufqHggvLqMpQ)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 22, 2017, 01:11:33 PM
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The extraordinary meeting at the Llandudno Town Hall tonight at 6.00pm to discuss the proposed plans for the Pier Pavilion should be interesting and quite lively
Thanks for that,H. Have downloaded poster for those that cant see the link.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2017, 01:17:14 PM
I'm surprised that it hasn't been advertised more in view of its importance and although I can't make it there tonight I would imagine some of the forum members will be there
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 22, 2017, 01:20:46 PM
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I'm concerned that people who are opposed to this development may believe that another developer will suddenly pop up to build a replica of the original Pavilion building if they oppose Waldron's plans. I believe the chances of that happening are approximately zero (otherwise it would have happened years ago) and the end result is that we will be left with a derelict site for another 20+ years.

Dave: had a thought about your original post on this. It's my understanding that the original site owner wouldn't sell and simply hung on to the site in the hope that the obvious mess would force CCBC to allow his hotel. So it's perhaps an error to assume that something might have happened before now. I do agree CCBC should have acted long ago with a CPO, but that's past incompetence for you. We can only hope the current level of incompetence doesn't adopt an 'Anything's better than nothing' view.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2017, 03:00:36 PM
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. We can only hope the current level of incompetence doesn't adopt an 'Anything's better than nothing' view.

If only we had your optimism Ian.       Try not to think of the Penmorfa Hotel, the West Shore sea defence, the infamous cycle track on the West Shore, the quarry waste on the North Shore, The Skip,  Colwyn Bay Pier, etc       &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: TheMedz on March 22, 2017, 04:08:03 PM
Looking down on this (Monaco/Monte Carlo) today and thinking whether this development was all started by one unsightly building being given planning permission ?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 22, 2017, 04:52:41 PM
Goodness right in the centre of the second Monte Carlo photo is a building very similar to the proposed monstrosity...perhaps the one architect at Creu has been on holiday there.?!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 22, 2017, 07:05:28 PM
Llandudno Town Council to reccomend to CCBC that the application is refused. See the FLAG Facebook page.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 23, 2017, 05:23:11 PM
From the FLAG Facebook page:

Last night, at an extraordinary meeting of Llandudno Town Council planning committee, Councillors voted overwhelmingly to reject the application for development of the former Pier Pavilion site and to recommend that CCBC deny planning permission.

Cllr Greg Robins, chair of the planning group, confirmed all his fellow councillors had read the plans and all of the currently submitted objections.

He also drew to attention to factual points:

Firstly that Mr Adam Williams, owner of Llandudno Pier, had confirmed to the Town Council that he has never been approached by the developer or his architects to remove his kiosks and that he does not intend to do so.

Secondly that the 77 parking spaces falls well short of CCBC requirements, 137 spaces are required for the flats under LDP 02 and that does not include spaces needed for the two proposed restaurants. It was noted 12 on road parking spaces would also be lost in the development to form an entrance.

LTC are an advisory body in this matter but we are extremely pleased that the committee agrees that the proposed building is still much too high and too great a mass – “overbearing” was the word frequently used - for the footprint of the site. The councillors also agreed that a change of use to residential from Tourism Amenity would not be welcomed or correct for this particular site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 26, 2017, 05:43:53 PM
I've message FLAG to see if they can produce a more professional version of this mock up. Waldron is getting away with his false perspective drawing something which shows a more realistic perspective is needed. What a blot on the townscape it would actually be.
Title: Re: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: snowcap on March 26, 2017, 10:51:58 PM
just got a nose bleed standing on my head to see the photo
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 27, 2017, 06:17:15 PM
Sorry I don't know why the photo is upside down, it was the right way up when I selected it. I asked the moderator if he/she could fix it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 28, 2017, 03:30:29 PM
Done.
Title: Re: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: snowcap on March 28, 2017, 09:16:04 PM
thats better got the blood back in my feet again
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on April 01, 2017, 08:18:32 AM
It seems Mr Waldron has pulled out of the pavilion project in favour of an Arts group, who plan to build a new theatre and concert hall on the site.


dailypost.co,uk-pavilion-site-llandudno-new-plans (http://www.snopes.com/holidays/graphics/aprilhead.jpg)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 01, 2017, 08:28:34 AM
I never saw that coming.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Nemesis on April 01, 2017, 09:07:21 AM
What date is it folks?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on April 10, 2017, 10:53:52 PM
I'm just surprised that there were only about 60 objections to this site but I still can't understand Mostyn Estates part in all this.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/controversial-llandudno-pier-pavilion-plan-12876036 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/controversial-llandudno-pier-pavilion-plan-12876036)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on April 12, 2017, 04:36:57 PM
http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true (http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true)

Mostyn Estates has submitted a 14-page letter objecting to the development. Included in this document is reference to the fact that the Colonnades to Happy Valley are part of the Pier Pavilion Development site and they question why the current site owner has not been pursued to carry out maintenance with the same vigour the Council demonstrated towards Colwyn Bay Pier. Ouch! So Waldron's "offer" to smarten up the Colonnades was actually an obligation as possible future ownership.

Oh, and the Grand Hotel supposedly submitted a one sentence letter saying that they are in favour of the development. However rumour has it that once/if the Pavilion development is completed he will purchase the Grand Hotel with a view to doing it up and selling it on.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on April 12, 2017, 06:09:44 PM
Thanks OrmeMac,  Well worth the read, it definitely pays to have a legal team behind you, if you are going to object, I feel a little more optimistic after reading their objections.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Cambrian on April 12, 2017, 06:25:58 PM
Not sure what the Colonnade has to do with the Pavilion site.  This was built in 1931/32 as an "unemployment relief" scheme by Llandudno UDC, to the design of the Mostyn Agent, G A Humphreys, and are now owned by Conwy CBC.

I wonder if the term "colonnades" has been used to mean the metal uprights or columns which are all that seem to remain of the frontage of the Pavilion ??
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on April 12, 2017, 06:50:09 PM
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http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true (http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true)

Mostyn Estates has submitted a 14-page letter objecting to the development. Included in this document is reference to the fact that the Colonnades to Happy Valley are part of the Pier Pavilion Development site and they question why the current site owner has not been pursued to carry out maintenance with the same vigour the Council demonstrated towards Colwyn Bay Pier. Ouch! So Waldron's "offer" to smarten up the Colonnades was actually an obligation as possible future ownership.


That's very interesting Ormemac, perhaps Mostyn Estates will now write in objecting  to the Castle Hotel,  the Llandudno Youth Centre and Penmorfa Hotel sites
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on April 13, 2017, 01:14:32 PM
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http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true (http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/lg/dialog.page?lang=en&org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning&ref_no=0/43785&viewdocs=true)

Mostyn Estates has submitted a 14-page letter objecting to the development. Included in this document is reference to the fact that the Colonnades to Happy Valley are part of the Pier Pavilion Development site and they question why the current site owner has not been pursued to carry out maintenance with the same vigour the Council demonstrated towards Colwyn Bay Pier. Ouch! So Waldron's "offer" to smarten up the Colonnades was actually an obligation as possible future ownership.


That's very interesting Ormemac, perhaps Mostyn Estates will now write in objecting  to the Castle Hotel,  the Llandudno Youth Centre and Penmorfa Hotel sites


Perhaps Mostyn Estates never saw this photo before and that's why the didn't write in about this place
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on April 15, 2017, 10:53:54 AM
Mostyn Estates says Llandudno Pier Pavilion plan should be 'withdrawn'
Landowner has launched a scathing attack on the apartment and restaurant proposals.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/mostyn-estates-says-llandudno-pier-12894492 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/mostyn-estates-says-llandudno-pier-12894492)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on April 27, 2017, 04:17:27 PM
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Not sure what the Colonnade has to do with the Pavilion site.  This was built in 1931/32 as an "unemployment relief" scheme by Llandudno UDC, to the design of the Mostyn Agent, G A Humphreys, and are now owned by Conwy CBC.

I wonder if the term "colonnades" has been used to mean the metal uprights or columns which are all that seem to remain of the frontage of the Pavilion ??

Yes the term Colonnade in the Planning Application does refer to the remains of the Cast Iron Work of the old Pavilion and not to the Concrete walkway leading up to Happy Valley
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on May 03, 2017, 11:19:37 AM
You can fool some of the people some of the time..........

Llandudno Pier Pavilion architect talks about the £15m scheme...and reveals some of the rejected designs
Architect Alwyn Rowlands said the development needed to be 'the beacon of a new start'.

“The task was very challenging; to design a building within a site which had been vacant for 20 years in an area of outstanding natural beauty surrounded by listed buildings – it is one of the most architecturally sensitive sites in Wales."

 “Initial proposals looked to draw influences from the previous and surrounding architecture with a stepped back form, curved roof reminiscent of the original pavilion building and arched openings as a continuation of the Grand Hotel elevation."

“A consultation period last summer concluded that a simplified and unique architectural language should be adopted for the proposed development.  (Bigger and cheaper)

"It was considered that we were trying to do too much with elements of Victorian, art deco and modernist architecture all competing for prominence, with the overall effect distracting from the splendor
 of its surroundings.   
“As a result we looked at it again and together decided the best way forward – objectives outlined by the Design Commission -    (*****)   was to simplify both the form and materials to adopt a more minimalist style.”
“There needed to be the beacon of a new start, as the old pavilion closed down as a leisure facility in the 1990s having not been used as a theatre for years,” said Alwyn

Developer Alan conceded there would be temporary traffic measures on Happy Valley Road – the road will not close - but hopes residents and business owners will be supportive of the development long-term.

“We have spoken to many     ( TWO )   people locally in preparing these plans and they are in agreement something needs to be done about this site, which has been an eyesore for too long and detracted from its beautiful surroundings,” he said.
Alwyn added that the “construction technique” will be considered carefully to mitigate as much disruption as possible."    ( TOUGH )

“The site is of such significance that of course it should encourage a balanced debate, and we have been open to feedback and input so we can come up with the best possible development for the area,” he said.   ( ****** )

“Our duty is to consider ourselves looking back at Llandudno in 50 years’ time; will the site still be a hole, will we still be debating what to put there, will we be looking at an empty plot next to a derelict building?”
Alan believes that while this is an opportunity to regenerate a site lost to the town for many years, the scheme must also be viable to it is sustainable for generations to come" 
This is a large development and needs to be so it is of a high quality, particularly the foundations and tanking to get to ground level – which includes retaining original columns,” he said.

“This final stripped-back version resulted in a hybrid scheme between the copper lantern and the glass box which partially obscured the balcony to provide a vertical rhythm and solar shading.

“Balcony overhangs will allow the residential units and at restaurant level to benefit from solar shading particularly during the summer.”
Unlikely that whatever is put there will meet approval of everyone

He said that by providing a clear route for the public realm to integrate through the development from public walkway spaces accessed off Happy Valley Road or pier level, it will ensure that visitors and local residents will enjoy the fresh and vibrant new space to appreciate this spectacular location

“This is a building that draws references from Llandudno’s rich history, but also has its own identity and we truly believe the town would be proud of it.”     $angry$
The scheme is expected at the planning committee this summer.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pavilion-architect-talks-12978284 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-pavilion-architect-talks-12978284)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 03, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
Developer Alan conceded there would be temporary traffic measures on Happy Valley Road – the road will not close - but hopes residents and business owners will be supportive of the development long-term.

....not a cat in hell's chance Alan! This local resident and business owner will never be supportive. I fully believe the claim that the road will not close is a lie, the road will have to be used for deliveries of tons and tons of building materials, location of several portacabins, parking for construction vehicles, plant and machinery because there is absolutely no where on the site for these things and there will be no where near enough room on the fenced off pavement area.

The scathing objection from Mostyn Estates claims that due to the many flaws in the application that the council has only two options, tell him to withdraw the application or reject it outright.  The Town Council objected, the Victorian Society objected, the Civic Society objected, the council's own Conservation Officer objected, the Hospitality Association objected and around 70 individual objections have been made, Cadw distanced it's self from the whole thing and The Design Council didn't really approve!  Some consultation Alan...who are you listening to???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on May 03, 2017, 08:17:37 PM
You say you'll NEVER be supportive CMG?

Sad to hear that you don't want anything on that site, that you are happy with decay and dereliction.

 &shake& &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: BMD on May 03, 2017, 09:46:53 PM
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“Initial proposals looked to draw influences from the previous and surrounding architecture with a stepped back form, curved roof reminiscent of the original pavilion building and arched openings as a continuation of the Grand Hotel elevation."

“A consultation period last summer concluded that a simplified and unique architectural language should be adopted for the proposed development.  (Bigger and cheaper)

"It was considered that we were trying to do too much with elements of Victorian, art deco and modernist architecture all competing for prominence, with the overall effect distracting from the splendor
 of its surroundings.   
“As a result we looked at it again and together decided the best way forward – objectives outlined by the Design Commission -    (*****)   was to simplify both the form and materials to adopt a more minimalist style.”

The initial two design concepts seem a massive improvement on the final submission. Surely that stepped-back approach was the way to go, to avoid it being overbearing and blocky. The architects clearly had some good intentions. Then, in some "design consultations", the whole thing regressed to what they disingenuously call "a more minimalist style".

It's reminiscent of what happened with Porth Eirias - an originally reasonably attractive and ambitious design "simplified", in consultations, to something ugly. I wish I could read the minutes of these "consultations" which regress the design (in both LLandudno and Colwyn Bay cases) - the reasons given sounding totally suspect to me.

As for the way they end up describing the final Benidorm-bog-standard submission ("hybrid scheme between the copper lantern and the glass box... vertical rhythm..." etc), it reminds me of the "chameleon-like properties" of the zinc cladding which replaced the windows of the skip.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 03, 2017, 10:46:10 PM
Hi Fester..never of Waldron's hideous oversized inappropriate white elephant.  I would be very supportive of something the same height and mass of the listed building which was burnt down, which is in keeping with the historic use of the site - for entertainment and tourism and in keeping (modern is fine) with the conservation area and well defined principles for the conservation area...AND as specified by the council in its own development brief for that site.

..  I also believe someone will propose something suitable ...sooner rather than later...or I've been lied to.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on May 04, 2017, 10:56:26 AM
I think this whole article was nothing other than a promotional public relations exercise, even the use of past design photos, making us think that's what we would end up with, this piece should have been headed  " ADVERTISMENT "
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on May 05, 2017, 08:47:30 AM
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I also believe someone will propose something suitable ...sooner rather than later...or I've been lied to.
Where have they been for the last 20 years??  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on May 06, 2017, 03:28:26 AM
Instead of  temporary traffic lights on Happy Valley Road read on North Parade. Shows how much research Waldron's done when he can't even get the name of the Street right and which property opposite is Gwesty Bach? I'm with CMJ there will be no support from me either, until he can come up with a design that isn't going to look stright into my 4th floor bedroom  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 06, 2017, 03:43:22 PM
Latest addition to the planning portal PP application are the minutes from a meeting of CCBC Conservation Area Advisory Panel....they object to the application! 

Yes, the piece in the Post was most definitely advertorial, a quite pathetic bit of PR. Shows the Post is behind Waldron publishing such blatant promotion!

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 06, 2017, 03:49:59 PM
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I also believe someone will propose something suitable ...sooner rather than later...or I've been lied to.
Where have they been for the last 20 years??  &shake&

I was told the land had been in trust until quite recently. I think that means it wasn't available for anyone else to buy?  ....and it's pretty obvious the owners weren't interested in developing it or they would have done so.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on May 22, 2017, 03:26:57 PM
Pier Pavilion development could put Llandudno Pier 'at risk' - claims attraction chiefs
They have written to planners to warn about the potential impact on income streams.

They claim that the scheme could have a severe negative impact on income streams to the pier - putting money for maintenance work at risk.
They said this could come from a loss of existing kiosks, disruption during construction, and potential further restrictions on the arcade licences due to the presence of residential apartments.

The letter, submitted by Caulmert on behalf of Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams, said: "The proposed development has the potential, in combination, to reduce significantly the income generated by the pier, in both the short and long terms.

"A reduction in the quality of the pier environment, through reduced expenditure on maintenance, or uncertainty over the future viability of the pier would be likely to have a major adverse impact on tourism in Llandudno."

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-development-could-put-13071579 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-development-could-put-13071579)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on May 22, 2017, 08:04:35 PM
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Pier Pavilion development could put Llandudno Pier 'at risk' - claims attraction chiefs
They have written to planners to warn about the potential impact on income streams.

They claim that the scheme could have a severe negative impact on income streams to the pier - putting money for maintenance work at risk.
They said this could come from a loss of existing kiosks, disruption during construction, and potential further restrictions on the arcade licences due to the presence of residential apartments.

The letter, submitted by Caulmert on behalf of Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams, said: "The proposed development has the potential, in combination, to reduce significantly the income generated by the pier, in both the short and long terms.

"A reduction in the quality of the pier environment, through reduced expenditure on maintenance, or uncertainty over the future viability of the pier would be likely to have a major adverse impact on tourism in Llandudno."

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-development-could-put-13071579 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-development-could-put-13071579)

Any yet again the Daily Post pads the article out with stuff from Waldron promoting his scheme. Where was the 'balance' in their recent advertorial about how wonderful the planned development will be?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on September 06, 2017, 10:32:56 AM
Fresh twist in controversial £15m Llandudno Pier Pavilion development saga.

A statement from CREU and Mr Waldron said: “CREU are currently undertaking a detailed review of the pavilion site proposals in order to ensure they represent the most appropriate architectural response to the unique character of this location and historic context.

“In parallel, a heritage and significance assessment will aim to demonstrate how the design can be justified against all relevant policy and guidance.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-twist-controversial-15m-llandudno-13577929 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-twist-controversial-15m-llandudno-13577929)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on September 06, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I understand that the Planning Application will not now be considered until November. Will be interesting to see what changes are made to the original submitted design.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on September 06, 2017, 11:24:57 AM
And I wonder if the 'new' design will not have been sitting in the architect's offices simply waiting until the furore abut the original hideous design died down.  Not exactly a novel ploy.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on September 06, 2017, 11:29:17 AM
Exclusive look at the new design:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on September 06, 2017, 11:29:56 AM
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on September 06, 2017, 04:55:45 PM
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And I wonder if the 'new' design will not have been sitting in the architect's offices simply waiting until the furore abut the original hideous design died down.  Not exactly a novel ploy.

He'll be putting his plans on Christmas Cards next to try and brainwash us. Ahhh...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on September 06, 2017, 05:19:48 PM
My interpretation of the article in The Post...

Mr Waldron has been informed by planning Chiefs that his current plans will not get approval. So he is having to revise them.

 :P WWW :twoface:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on October 26, 2017, 11:38:12 AM
Mr Waldron has just resubmitted his revised planning application for the Pier Pavilion site. 0/43784 and 0/43785.

This time its only for 49 apartments, commercial (A3) floorspace and related access and parking........ &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2017, 06:54:30 PM
Because it's a new application if anyone disagrees with the application they need to write in again to CCBC  with their objections.   The previous applications will not be counted as I understand it
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on October 27, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on October 27, 2017, 02:27:17 PM
What I find so astonishing is how most people will be duped by this tactic. It's pretty obvious that the first design was merely to anticipate all the anger, so this design - almost certainly the original, anyway  - will appear that much better by comparison. It's the oldest trick in the book and yet he'll probably get away with it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on October 27, 2017, 03:14:46 PM
Using photographs from different angles does not improve the design, and I love this......

*.Using a site-specific design assessment methodology the scale and massing of the new proposal has a profile that is more forgiving to the context of the site and the sweep of the bay.

“The elevational treatment of the proposed development is dominated by a three-storey central structure which runs parallel to the existing properties and extends across the front of the development, articulating a modern vertical rhythm influenced by the architecture of the bay and the pier extending out to the sea

“The public realm has been enhanced with the introduction of an open meeting and destination space at the heart of the building linking the pier level and Happy Valley road to revive the site’s historic heritage in the spirit of the former pavilion.”*       _))*
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on October 27, 2017, 03:54:07 PM
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http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm)

Had to smile when this advert was included in the page I viewed on their website.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on October 27, 2017, 03:58:32 PM
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linking the pier level and Happy Valley road to revive the site’s historic heritage

Except the attitude of the developer means he won't have any access to the pier and the public will be met by the back of the pier's retail units.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on October 27, 2017, 04:05:24 PM
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http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/fresh-llandudno-pier-pavilion-images-13819322#ICID=nsm)

I see from the video clip Waldren hasn't grasped the fact he dose'nt have access onto the Pier any more. It's privately owned and he has no right of way, to use it.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on October 27, 2017, 06:41:19 PM
And now the translation:

Their phrase: Using a site-specific design assessment methodology the scale and massing of the new proposal has a profile that is more forgiving to the context of the site and the sweep of the bay.

What it means: "The way we've drawn it makes it look slightly less obnoxious  than it  really is"

Their phrase:The elevational treatment of the proposed development is dominated by a three-storey central structure which runs parallel to the existing properties and extends across the front of the development, articulating a modern vertical rhythm influenced by the architecture of the bay and the pier extending out to the sea

What it means: "We're hoping you haven't noticed that the way we've drawn it makes it look slightly less obnoxious  than it  really is"

Their phrase:The public realm has been enhanced with the introduction of an open meeting and destination space at the heart of the building linking the pier level and Happy Valley road to revive the site’s historic heritage in the spirit of the former pavilion.”*   [/quote]

What it means: 'We've left a hole in the middle so people can get through.

Brought to you by the anti-BS language filtration system
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on October 27, 2017, 06:41:33 PM
I would like to know how he is going to stop his underground car park flooding when the big tides happen ,our workshop/ tea room used to be under there couldn't get in on big tides .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on October 28, 2017, 10:16:50 PM
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And now the translation:

Their phrase:The public realm has been enhanced with the introduction of an open meeting and destination space at the heart of the building linking the pier level and Happy Valley road to revive the site’s historic heritage in the spirit of the former pavilion.

What it means: 'We've left a hole in the middle so people can get through.

Brought to you by the anti-BS language filtration system

What Waldron and his cohorts can't take on board is the fact the North side of the Pier Pavilion Site does not and never has been on Happy Valley Road. It sits squarely at the top end of North Parade. The buildings opposite, the public toilets (now closed) and the Grand Hotel all have the LL30 2LP Postal Code i.e. North Parade. So why is he so reluctant to acknowledge the fact? If he can't even get the address right after all the time and money he's spent on all the so called expert consultants and advisors, then what else have they got wrong?  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on October 28, 2017, 10:35:14 PM
I wouldn't have believed it possible but the revised design is even more awful. The cut back in the roof does nothing to lessen the objections to it still being a block of flats and the pier is not the right place for a block of flats!  It's still much too big for the site, disregarding the specification in the CCBC Development Design Brief that any new development should confirm to the height, scale and mass of the pavilion....it still has too few parking spaces, even for fewer flats. At the Town Hall meeting earlier this year we were informed by Cllr. Greg Robins that the county council specified that new developments have a parking space for every bedroom and 1 visitor space for every 3 flats...so Waldron needs to provide 110 spaces just for the flats. Then there is no parking for these proposed restaurants (which I do not believe are ever intended to happen). The new atrium entrance on to the pier... Well...The last time I spoke to Adam Williams he was definitely not going to agree to removing his kiosks...has he changed his mind in the last few weeks? Or has Waldron kept his consulting heritage architects in the dark about not having access?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on October 29, 2017, 04:02:33 PM
Interesting.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=334587130284630&id=217592038650807
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2017, 09:24:59 PM
It would seem a pointless application if the development has no access to the pier so why would Waldron make such an application? 
Could it be that he has had discussions with Adam Williams already and there was no satisfactory agreement reached?    They do say that every person has their price but apart from that there must be many other reasons why objections could be made to this planning application
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 01, 2017, 12:59:44 PM
I bought a copy of the NWWN today because it had an article on the latest design changes to the proposed Blot on the Pier. I was most intrigued with the large colour picture showing how the redesigned monstrosity would look when viewed from the promenade. It showed my property peeping out around the edge, so you could easily think well that's not so bad. Unfortunately for Mr Waldron I wasn't born yesterday. When I looked more closely I could see where my property had been moved in the photograph to the South by more than its full width, giving a totally false and misleading impression of what the finished redevelopment will look like. Next time Mr Waldron a little honesty please and try employing a more professional firm to do your Graphics. You might have moved the House but you forgot to move the Garden Wall.  :o
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on November 01, 2017, 02:17:58 PM
That bit of skullduggery deserves a wider audience.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Tom Davidson on November 01, 2017, 03:18:43 PM
Hi Blongb - that's a cracker of a story. If you want to get in touch email tom.davidson@trinitymirror.com
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 02, 2017, 01:48:34 PM
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Hi Blongb - that's a cracker of a story. If you want to get in touch email tom.davidson@trinitymirror.com

I've just sent you a private e-mail Tom
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 02, 2017, 03:58:36 PM
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Hi Blongb - that's a cracker of a story. If you want to get in touch email tom.davidson@trinitymirror.com
I've just sent you a private e-mail Tom

 $good$     $good$      $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 03, 2017, 11:03:32 AM
I've just looked at an aerial view of the area and have to say I don't agree with Blongb. Take a look at the attached aerial image - the red line indicates the extent of the Pavilion building, taken from the viewpoint where the cgi image was generated (by the wishing well on the prom). You can clearly see that all of the hotels and former hotels along that section of road are clearly visible on the left-hand side of that red line, as per the cgi image.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2017, 11:38:19 AM
That may be the case Dave but it still seems like a deliberate deception to me, with the angle of the photo.     Most of the other photos of this computer generated monstrosity have been taken from further down the promenade and that is the view that most people will see the building from.

Using buzz words and cleverly angled photos shouldn't be a reason for granting planning to this building
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 03, 2017, 11:53:54 AM
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I've just looked at an aerial view of the area and have to say I don't agree with Blongb. Take a look at the attached aerial image - the red line indicates the extent of the Pavilion building, taken from the viewpoint where the cgi image was generated (by the wishing well on the prom). You can clearly see that all of the hotels and former hotels along that section of road are clearly visible on the left-hand side of that red line, as per the cgi image.

We are discussing two different images Dave. I was referring to the one shown towards the end of the Video clip, which wasn't taken from the wishing well but was taken from the middle of the slipway 175 yards to the south, which does have a major impact on the perspective.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on November 03, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
8 objections on the planning portal so planning committee will have to be a public meeting. Town council still objects.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 04, 2017, 01:34:57 PM
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8 objections on the planning portal so planning committee will have to be a public meeting. Town council still objects.

Llandudno Town Council Planning committee discussed the new planning application during the last week and have still rejected the new plans.  $thanx$  $good$  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 06, 2017, 02:30:35 PM
Lots of work going on in the pit today as Contractors take core samples. A great pity they can't obey the parking restrictions and seem to think it's their right to park on the Promenade. It's long overdue for CCBC to give Parking Services the authority to ticket persistant offenders.  >:(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2017, 04:39:32 PM
I find it rather strange that they are doing any type of work on the site considering that they haven't got planning permission for the new application.

Is the developer aware of something the general public is not privy to?     

I'm afraid that the stink from the pit is coming back in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 06, 2017, 07:29:40 PM
I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on November 06, 2017, 08:47:46 PM
It could have made a useful HQ for CCBC and probably cheaper.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2017, 10:39:06 PM
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I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.


If that is correct then something has gone on behind closed doors.       No one in business, not even a chancer would buy something without a guarantee  that they could cash in on their asset.
The planning application has been made but there are already enough objections to it, for it to be presented before the Planning committee and we know that the Council are objecting to the application so on paper it's a risky investment so what really is going on?

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 07, 2017, 12:36:22 PM
Speculation perhaps? The site has got to be redeveloped, that's a given. I just want something in keeping that will befit the town and it's visitors and not just the pocket of the developer.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 08, 2017, 09:02:37 AM
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I have it on good authority that Mr Waldron has now purchased the land.
For better or for worse I would say that it’s now certain that ‘something’ is getting built there.


If that is correct then something has gone on behind closed doors.       No one in business, not even a chancer would buy something without a guarantee  that they could cash in on their asset.
The planning application has been made but there are already enough objections to it, for it to be presented before the Planning committee and we know that the Council are objecting to the application so on paper it's a risky investment so what really is going on?
For a planning application to be successful, it just has to conform to WG planning guidelines. Then, if the planning committee refuse it, the developer just submits an appeal to the WG planning inspector and he will make a decision based purely on those planning guidelines. I'm sure Mr Waldron has gone to great lengths with his revised application to make sure it conforms to the planning guidelines.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2017, 02:44:06 PM
What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 08, 2017, 03:31:14 PM
The contrast between the owner of the Pier (who generously supported the fireworks event for the community and is investing millions preserving the pier) and that of the so-called developer of the Pavilion site (who is destroying the most important view in Llandudno purely for profit) couldn't be more stark. Sadly it looks like the latter has been told he is free to destroy Llandudno's Victorian heritage for good.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on November 08, 2017, 08:25:03 PM
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What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government

If you read both the Mostyn Estate and Adam William's objections to the previous iteration, both written by planning experts, both state quite a few irregularities with the application. These do not seem to have been dealt with in the revised plans, which essentially deal with 'views into and around the site'.  The council planning department (Dave Watson) told me that the disagreement between the two parties over the issue of the site having access directly on to the pier was not a planning consideration. Basically Waldron and Adam would have to settle that between themselves...so let the lawyers battle it out I suppose. But the council could stipulate that no building work be started until the right of access was sorted out.  This whole thing is totally not in the public interest...let's imagine a scenario...Waldron gets his planning permission but the council stipulate he can't build till the disputed access is resolved.  Waldron wins and AdM has to remove his 13 kiosks...those people renting them loose their livelihoods, Pier income is lost...leading to less maintenance being possible...over time the pier falls more and more into disrepair...starts to look run down..making the town look run down ....a block of flats (even with 2 Restaurants!!) will not replace the loss of our Grade II listed pier, one of the finest in the UK.  50 years from now when it ends up like Colwny Bay pier, people will regret allowing that monstrosity to be built. Let's pray sense prevails and our democratically elected councillors on the planning committee say no to this plan...irrespective of what the planning department 'advice' to them is. Our representatives need to represent the majority view.  So far there are 10 objections on the planning portal and one letter of support...from someone in Darlington.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 09, 2017, 09:08:08 AM
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What you seem to be saying Dave is that providing Waldron dots the i's crosses the t's and ticks all the boxes on the planning application then he can get what he wants.

That's not how it should work,  it's a license for him to make money just like his development in Glan Conwy.    No mention of affordable housing in both applications although  affordable housing seems to be the buzz word in local and national government

If you read both the Mostyn Estate and Adam William's objections to the previous iteration, both written by planning experts, both state quite a few irregularities with the application. These do not seem to have been dealt with in the revised plans, which essentially deal with 'views into and around the site'.  The council planning department (Dave Watson) told me that the disagreement between the two parties over the issue of the site having access directly on to the pier was not a planning consideration. Basically Waldron and Adam would have to settle that between themselves...so let the lawyers battle it out I suppose. But the council could stipulate that no building work be started until the right of access was sorted out.  This whole thing is totally not in the public interest...let's imagine a scenario...Waldron gets his planning permission but the council stipulate he can't build till the disputed access is resolved.  Waldron wins and AdM has to remove his 13 kiosks...those people renting them loose their livelihoods, Pier income is lost...leading to less maintenance being possible...over time the pier falls more and more into disrepair...starts to look run down..making the town look run down ....a block of flats (even with 2 Restaurants!!) will not replace the loss of our Grade II listed pier, one of the finest in the UK.  50 years from now when it ends up like Colwny Bay pier, people will regret allowing that monstrosity to be built. Let's pray sense prevails and our democratically elected councillors on the planning committee say no to this plan...irrespective of what the planning department 'advice' to them is. Our representatives need to represent the majority view.  So far there are 10 objections on the planning portal and one letter of support...from someone in Darlington.
I'm not sure your argument is logical. If Waldron's development does not happen and an alternative developer comes along to build an entertainment/leisure complex comprised entirely of restaurants/bars/attractions....then surely that will divert far more money from the pier's businesses than the present scheme...and will still involve the removal of the kiosks?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2017, 11:11:53 AM
CMG's  just expressed an opinion and a valid one at that , just like yours is Dave but when you are dealing with someone hell bent on making as much money as Waldron wants to do,  then anything can happen.
He's exploiting an opportunity caused by the inactivity of CCBC to do anything positive to resolve the situation when the fire first happened.

If Adam Williams sticks to his guns then the proposed development can have no access to the Pier and should be a dead duck.
However, will he do that?     They say that everyone has their price so perhaps at the moment the price is not high enough?

That's just speculation on my part, but experience has told me not to trust developers.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 09, 2017, 11:45:44 AM
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I'm not sure your argument is logical. If Waldron's development does not happen and an alternative developer comes along to build an entertainment/leisure complex comprised entirely of restaurants/bars/attractions....then surely that will divert far more money from the pier's businesses than the present scheme...and will still involve the removal of the kiosks?

Neither Mr Waldron or any other future Developer of the Pier Pavilion site will be permitted to build any Restaurants or Bars on the site as it is expressly forbidden in the legally enforceable Covenants contained in the Charges Register of the Pier Pavilion Deeds :-

"The Vendors do hereby covenant with the Purchasers their successors and assigns that while and so long as the Refreshment rooms therein before refereed to shall be kept open and carried on by the Purchasers their successors or assigns Any the Vendors their successors or assigns shall not sell or permit to be sold on any part of the said Pier and Pier extension any wines spirits beer food or other articles for consumption or refreshment or any tobacco or cigars or cigarettes Provided nevertheless that the present shops and trades on the Pier and Pier extension may be continued for the sale of fruits and sweets as at present but the number of such shops shall not hereafter be increased nor shall any such shops be enlarged."

This Codicil was put on the Pavilion Site to protect the Pier from competition when the ownership was split into two separate Companies and I don't think Mr Williams is in any mood to allow it to be discharged any time soon.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on November 09, 2017, 12:20:04 PM
Why doesn't Mr Williams build something there then instead of trying to stop this one?

Or is that too obvious  ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on November 09, 2017, 01:29:58 PM
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Why doesn't Mr Williams build something there then instead of trying to stop this one?

Or is that too obvious  ???

I was surprised that he did not, maybe the 4 million for the pier was his limit.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2017, 03:16:14 PM
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Why doesn't Mr Williams build something there then instead of trying to stop this one?

Or is that too obvious  ???


A great idea BTR,   a very large big wheel wouldn't look out of place there.   
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 09, 2017, 03:19:10 PM
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Why doesn't Mr Williams build something there then instead of trying to stop this one?

Or is that too obvious  ???

How about the fact that Mr Williams doesn't own the Pier Pavilion or the fact that he was never offered the lease
Or is that too obvious ???
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on November 09, 2017, 03:23:22 PM
Why didn't he try and buy it? Would have been an ideal expansion of his pier business.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2017, 04:34:47 PM
Wasn't there something posted on here saying that Mr Williams was offered the Pier Pavilion site but turned it down?

If that is the case then I bet he regrets not buying it now
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 09, 2017, 10:05:54 PM
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Why didn't he try and buy it? Would have been an ideal expansion of his pier business.

Mr Waldron purchased an option to buy the land.
Whilst this was in force, no one else could buy the land.
Actually, no one could trace the owner of the land even if they wanted to, the ownership was buried deep in false names in offshore companies.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 09, 2017, 11:46:03 PM
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Actually, no one could trace the owner of the land even if they wanted to, the ownership was buried deep in false names in offshore companies.

The Owners were and most likely still are Maurice and Donna Nixon. Information readily available from the Land Registry.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on November 10, 2017, 12:06:30 AM
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Actually, no one could trace the owner of the land even if they wanted to, the ownership was buried deep in false names in offshore companies.

The Owners were and most likely still are Maurice and Donna Nixon. Information readily available from the Land Registry.
They were only mentioned for the very first time when Mr Waldron secured the option in this land.
Prior to this, the only name listed in terms of ownership was Mr David Taylor, of Worcester.
But any address listed for him turned out to be false, and further digging only took one as far as David Taylor (Worcester) Ltd, listed in the Cayman Islands I recall.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 10, 2017, 08:58:52 AM
The fact is Mr Waldron was able to contact the owners and purchase the site. So, anyone else could have done the same...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 10, 2017, 08:38:14 PM
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The fact is Mr Waldron was able to contact the owners and purchase the site. So, anyone else could have done the same...

It's a pity Mr Waldron didn't get a copy of the Title Deeds and read and digest them before he bought the site. It would have saved him a lot of time and money. :-}}}
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on November 10, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
I don't think that he can be short of a bob or two after selling some of those houses in Glan Conwy.

£575.000  for a three bed semi detached property       :o
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2017, 11:53:55 AM
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The fact is Mr Waldron was able to contact the owners and purchase the site. So, anyone else could have done the same...

It's a pity Mr Waldron didn't get a copy of the Title Deeds and read and digest them before he bought the site. It would have saved him a lot of time and money. :-}}}
A deal will get done, in spite of public comments to the contrary, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on November 22, 2017, 05:51:30 PM
The application is on the agenda for the December 13 Planning Comittee meeting, local council told me but she did say it could get postponed if the planning department hasn't got its report ready in time. I'll post when she confirms to me. It  is a public meeting and she said the more people who go the better.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on November 22, 2017, 08:15:17 PM
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The application is on the agenda for the December 13 Planning Comittee meeting, local council told me but she did say it could get postponed if the planning department hasn't got its report ready in time. I'll post when she confirms to me. It  is a public meeting and she said the more people who go the better.
 

Thank-you CMG, that's one that will definitely go in the Diary  $thanx$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on November 29, 2017, 03:51:58 PM
Controversial Llandudno Pier Pavilion development gets planning meeting date

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/controversial-llandudno-pier-pavilion-development-13970376 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/controversial-llandudno-pier-pavilion-development-13970376)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 02, 2017, 08:56:38 PM
Mostyn Estates has lodged its objections to the revised plans it's now on the planning portal.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 06, 2017, 10:06:51 AM
Llandudno pier 'in jeopardy' if pavilion development goes ahead

The owner of the pier has made the claim ahead of a crunch planning meeting on the restaurants and apartments plan.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-in-jeopardy-pavilion-13998268 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-in-jeopardy-pavilion-13998268)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 06, 2017, 11:32:56 AM
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Llandudno pier 'in jeopardy' if pavilion development goes ahead

The owner of the pier has made the claim ahead of a crunch planning meeting on the restaurants and apartments plan.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-in-jeopardy-pavilion-13998268 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudno-pier-in-jeopardy-pavilion-13998268)
I find this a little odd, to be honest.  I credit Mr Williams with being a sharp guy and there's no way that he would not have realised before buying the pier  that a redevelopment of the Pavilion site was on the cards at some point.

If he thinks about it, he might realise that a building that is almost primarily apartments is almost an ideal scenario for him. After all, I doubt Mr Williams would wish to have most people's preferred option for the site - a multi storey building filled with national chains running attractions and restaurants? Now, that really would be serious competition and a major problem for the pier...

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 06, 2017, 12:13:55 PM
Waldron's continuing arrogance never ceases to amaze:

Quote
At no stage has the developer sought to engage us [Mr Williams, Pier owner] with the result that his plans are incomplete in areas that directly affect the pier. The building process alone is likely to damage the pier both commercially and structurally.

Surely Mr Williams would be one of the first people you'd approach and do everything in your power to get their support?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 06, 2017, 10:23:45 PM
Planners recommend the plans for the Pier Pavilion.             &shake&


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudnos-pier-pavilion-development-recommended-14003739 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/llandudnos-pier-pavilion-development-recommended-14003739)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 06, 2017, 10:38:23 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 07, 2017, 11:26:28 AM
It was always going to be recommended for approval, as the application met all the relevant planning guidelines.

The procedure now is that if the Planning Committee go against the officer's recommendation at the forthcoming meeting, then it automatically goes on the agenda at the next planning meeting to be considered again. If it is turned down again, then the applicant has the option of appealing the decision by way of a WG Planning Inspector. Personally, I would consider it unlikely that a Planning Inspector would reject the proposed development.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2017, 01:02:39 PM
On that basis, providing your application meets all the relevant planning guidelines then you should be able to build what you want and where you want.  That doesn't seem right to me.    &shake&

Affordable housing hasn't been mentioned and that is a matter that developers overlook in their quest for maximum profit, but that is a requirement too.
Waldron certainly didn't include affordable housing in his Glan Conwy site so shame on the CCBC planning department for not sorting him or any other developers out

 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on December 07, 2017, 02:14:20 PM
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On that basis, providing your application meets all the relevant planning guidelines then you should be able to build what you want and where you want.  That doesn't seem right to me.    &shake&

Affordable housing hasn't been mentioned and that is a matter that developers overlook in their quest for maximum profit, but that is a requirement too.
Waldron certainly didn't include affordable housing in his Glan Conwy site so shame on the CCBC planning department for not sorting him or any other developers out

Mr Waldron has still got to get around the legal Covenants that restrict what he can provide on the site. Covenants that were put on to protect the Pier and are as binding today as they were when first put there. If he thinks he's going to find Adam Williams a push over, then in my opinion, he is going to be sadly mistaken. Unless of course it was Waldons intention just to end up building a luxury apartment development in the first place. Far more profit in that no doubt.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2017, 05:55:48 PM
Blongb,    I've said it before on here but a few years ago I had a face to face meeting with the Chief Planning Officer of CCBC and his exact words were "  the Covenants are not worth the paper they are written on"  so presumably Waldron knows this and that's why he is pressing ahead with the application.

Having said that there must be some way of Adam Williams stopping access from the site on to the Pier or does Waldron expect Adam Williams to move some of the kiosks just so he can get the application through.

I'm not sure if my memory is correct but when I read the original application was there something in it saying that if the two restaurants could not be occupied that there was a clause saying that they also could be converted into apartments?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Cambrian on December 07, 2017, 07:01:28 PM
Covenants can be tricky.  To enforce you need to be a beneficiary - usually a successor to the entity which originally imposed them.  This can be difficult to establish as many covenants were imposed in the 19th century and some may now be in breach of subsequent legislation or be obsolete. In any event, there is a right to appeal to the Upper Tribunal - dealing with land issues - to get them set aside for various reasons. Sometimes covenants can be confused with planning conditions which can be enforced by the local authority.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Robbie G on December 07, 2017, 07:45:15 PM
IT appears that we are all looking for way and means to stop this development ,and I hope we succeed , while I can appreciate the pier owners concerns is the land freehold or leasehold where do Mostyn Estates stand if it is leasehold can they refuse access to the site ? nothing appears to be straight forward ,perhaps this is to be expected with CCBC
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 07, 2017, 07:47:05 PM
The Design Commission for Wales came out strongly against the revised designs, they were critical about quite a few things (it's on the planning portal) concluding that it still wasn't a good enough design for such a prestigious site.  So a few (unelected) individuals in CCBC planning think differently.  I hope our  democratically elected representatives have been listening to the vast majority of their constituents and read what the DCW says, along with the very damning Mostyn Estates objection letter and the one from Adam Williams planning professional representatives sent in which also agreed with the Mostyn objections that the plans don't meet several planning rules... not to mention the CCBC Business and Tourism Department saying it didn't support the application. Who do these planning officers think they are ...?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2017, 10:19:31 PM
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IT appears that we are all looking for way and means to stop this development ,and I hope we succeed , while I can appreciate the pier owners concerns is the land freehold or leasehold where do Mostyn Estates stand if it is leasehold can they refuse access to the site ? nothing appears to be straight forward ,perhaps this is to be expected with CCBC

Robbie the Pavilion site is freehold and not owned by Mostyn Estates but I don't know the position about the freehold of the Pier itself
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on December 08, 2017, 09:26:44 AM
Hi Hugo the pier was sold freehold ,I reckon this could get messy,Waldron should have involved Adam Williams to iron things out ,what I've seen with the pier owner is he's fair but a businessman .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2017, 10:09:30 AM
Hi Norman, thanks for that info on the Pier.   It could be a case of two immovable objects clashing if neither party is prepared to compromise.       What worries me is that everything has a price and Waldron could make an offer for access that Adam Williams would be silly to refuse.
We'll have to wait and see.

Hope that you are keeping safe and well in Llandudno.    It's been hailing and snowing up here and it's sticking and Mrs H has gone shopping in the Bay so I don't know if she'll be able to get up the hill in her car.
They have forecast heavy snow here this afternoon so we'll have to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on December 08, 2017, 10:16:30 AM
All good down here ,yes you certainly get the snow up there our youngest is up Denbigh way on the turbines ,hope the snow eases before Sunday to get to the derby ,hope Mrs H gets back home safe .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2017, 10:35:47 AM
Thanks Norman, Mrs H has just got back but we can't get the car on the drive so have had to park it near the road.
I don't envy your youngest up in Denbigh as it can be quite bad up there sometimes.
I'm staying put for now but I've got a walk fixed for tomorrow but who knows what will happen with the weather in the meantime
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 08, 2017, 01:37:53 PM
This is on FB

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 08, 2017, 01:49:37 PM
The plans show that the development has access to the pier for the whole of the buildings length.  Adam Williams is not going to move his kiosks to provide that access and seems pretty certain (his legal people) that there is no right of way/access apart from a small area by the two old staircases.  Waldron also seems sure that he does have right of access or else why plan for it???
The planning department say:
"Whilst this right of access may be disputed by the owner of the pier, the right of access may not be a planning consideration if it is not relevant to the regulation of the development and use of land in the public interest.  However, if the access is necessary to make the development acceptable in planning terms, the Local Planning Authority could consider imposing planning conditions or Planning conditions should not be imposed on land that is not under the control of the applicant, but it may be possible to impose conditions to require that the development does not commence until the access to the pier has been provided.  The developer would then need to resolve the right of access issues with the owner of the pier."

So the lawyers would have to slug than one out, as they would with the covenants the Pier holds on the site, which have been mentioned elsewhere on this forum and which are cited in the latest Pier objection letter on the planning portal.  I'm pretty sure Adam will fight not to have to remove his 12 kiosks as that is where he gets a very large proportion of his income and which he could not replace (and those kiosk tenants would lose their livelihoods) and so its imperative to him that they remain.  Unless Waldron agrees to cover the cost of those 12 kiosks in perpetuity I can't see any other deal that would attract Adam to move them...wouldn't tempt me if I was pier owner.  As someone already said this could get messy and the council planning department couldn't give two hoots!
 $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: llandudnotrust on December 08, 2017, 03:38:31 PM
If it was me I would sell it with Planning permission which will leave a good profit I think
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 08, 2017, 04:08:52 PM
The only problem is, is that Waldron doesn't have planning permission and with a bit of luck won't get it either.    He had an option to buy the site but has he taken up the option?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 08, 2017, 05:07:13 PM
Sadly if/when Waldron's money-making exercise starts to be built I won't be returning to Llandudno to see it's Victorian heritage destroyed. Just about every important view will be lost to this monstrosity. Curiously the "Future of Llandudno Action Group", which was set up to actively campaign against this development, hasn't updated their facebook page since 4 November. Their silence is deafening.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 09, 2017, 12:58:38 PM
I was part of FLAG and a few weeks ago the Chairperson resigned, no one else wanted to take on the role.  I did not feel I was an appropriate person as I have too much personal vested interest.  So nothing has been done with the FB page since.  I have a personal FB page called Save Our Seafront, which I started well before FLAG was founded.  I continue to put information and updates on that page.  I'm in touch with the pier management and get some info (what they want to tell me!!) from that source and our local councillors are very helpful and supportive too.  Harry Saville has personally sent in an objection letter and Louise Emmery is part of the Business and Tourism Office and the head of that office has put in an official 'we cannot support this' memo.  I was told by both Louise and the pier management that Waldron did indeed purchase the land outright as his option ran out, he renewed it but it ran out again and he had to purchase the land to keep hold of things.  He is not giving in easily!  I've also had several communications with the planning department who have provided some information. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 11, 2017, 08:43:01 AM
Why has the FLAG Chairperson resigned at such a critical juncture in proceedings?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 11, 2017, 11:15:04 AM
Seems strange why FLAG, which was started over a year ago, would fold now. They were recognised as one of the main objectors, representing the views of the public. Now we are left with no group speaking up for the individual objectors. Surely the group must have had more members than just the chairperson/founder who should have stepped up, at least for the next month or so? I sincerely hope no pressure from outside sources caused the groups demise. I did offer some help, albeit from afar, at the outset with posters, website, etc but they seemed to have everything in hand at the time.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 11, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
More B*******

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-developer-commits-local-14021212 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/pier-pavilion-developer-commits-local-14021212)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 11, 2017, 02:58:19 PM
This comment from the above article      *Last week officers recommended the project for approval and the planning committee will meet to discuss the application on Wednesday.*   
I did not realise they had recommeded  approval,     sad day      :( :(
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 11, 2017, 03:20:08 PM
More waffle from Waldron

Quote
“This is one of the most viewed sites in Llandudno, but basically it’s been nothing more than a hole in the ground for decades so seeing it up and running, providing employment and bringing people to the town for quality food and drink, is surely a far better alternative?”

It's because it's one of the most viewed sites in a Victorian town that we don't want a modern block of flats put there. The hole in the ground is virtually invisible as it stands and is far preferable to his proposed erection.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 11, 2017, 07:37:40 PM
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Why has the FLAG Chairperson resigned at such a critical juncture in proceedings?
He actually resigned as Chair in late summer when he moved from Llandudno to Conwy. He didn't think it should be led by someone living in Conwy. Go figure? When the revised plans were released I continued to make posts to the FB page for information. Even though he had resigned (but only told 2 other group members) I asked if he would convene a meeting, but that never happened. I live across the road from the site and did not/do not believe I am appropriate as I'm not at all impartial.  I believe People would decry someone who had so much personally to lose running the group. Another member resigned due to ill health and no one else volunteered. I used to run FB posts and press releases by the chair before making them public, with no one to run them by I felt I should no longer post,  so it died.  I now just  post personally on Save Our Seafront.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on December 11, 2017, 08:11:29 PM
Today I received a copy of a letter from Alan Williams Solicitor, which he has submitted to each Planning Committee Member, for them to consider before their meeting on Wednesday.  Whilst he admits the Planning Officers do not have to take into account the restrictive covenants on the site when making their recommendations to the main Planning Committee, it does sets out in no uncertain terms the legally enforceable breaches Waldron's Plans would fail to comply with. Only a blind fool would pass the proposal now, as in any future High Court case they would be unable to deny they had been informed of the Codicil's which were put there to protect the Pier from such proposed developments on the Pavilion site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on December 11, 2017, 08:43:40 PM
Crass scar on landscape' Mostyn Estates delivers scathing attack on Pier Pavilion development
The landowner's comments come as pier boss also warns he will halt investment on the historic attraction.

* In our opinion it is a low grade design that falls so far below what is expected in Llandudno, as to be an insult to the original architects of the town.

"It would be a crass scar on the landscape, that clearly can only benefit the applicant alone. *


www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 11, 2017, 09:22:01 PM
But... if the development fits the criteria for the the planners and the laws governing planning applications, then surely it’s very difficult for the the committee to overrule their own colleagues.

As I understand it, if they do reject the application, then the Welsh Assembly planning body would rule on the appeal.  They would decide solely on the legal criteria and without any sentiment.

I’m not sure that Mr Waldron, if his architects and solicitors have done their homework, can be derailed indefinitely.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 11, 2017, 10:20:21 PM
Perhaps if he does get the go-ahead it can be made next to impossible for him to carry out the work? Surely they can refuse to let him block the pavements or roads with equipment and supplies? Any vehicles could be ticketed. The pier owner could take action over excess noise, etc. How come they can ban plastic window frames but not this?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2017, 10:38:46 PM
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Today I received a copy of a letter from Alan Williams Solicitor, which he has submitted to each Planning Committee Member, for them to consider before their meeting on Wednesday. 

We did something similar when a PLC made an application for planning in our street.      The  Planning Office who advised the Planning Committee of the application only present a short precis of the objections raised.    What we did was to deliver personally to every Planning Committee member a copy of every one of our full objections to the proposal.     There were over 32 objections and the letters were delivered about a week before the hearing so that the Councillors could read and digest all of our concerns.
The PLC tried three times to amend the application but in the end we were lucky and the Planning Committee refused the application
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 12, 2017, 08:24:17 AM
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Crass scar on landscape' Mostyn Estates delivers scathing attack on Pier Pavilion development
The landowner's comments come as pier boss also warns he will halt investment on the historic attraction.

* In our opinion it is a low grade design that falls so far below what is expected in Llandudno, as to be an insult to the original architects of the town.

"It would be a crass scar on the landscape, that clearly can only benefit the applicant alone. *


www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982)
I suspect the only thing Mostyn Estates are upset about is that they're not making any money out of the scheme...

Who remembers them demolishing a chapel in order to build a concrete monstrosity of a shopping centre on Mostyn Street in the 1970s?
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Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 12, 2017, 08:28:13 AM
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Today I received a copy of a letter from Alan Williams Solicitor, which he has submitted to each Planning Committee Member, for them to consider before their meeting on Wednesday.  Whilst he admits the Planning Officers do not have to take into account the restrictive covenants on the site when making their recommendations to the main Planning Committee, it does sets out in no uncertain terms the legally enforceable breaches Waldron's Plans would fail to comply with. Only a blind fool would pass the proposal now, as in any future High Court case they would be unable to deny they had been informed of the Codicil's which were put there to protect the Pier from such proposed developments on the Pavilion site.
It's irrelevant to any planning application, so will not be considered by the Planning Committee.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 12, 2017, 09:24:06 AM
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Crass scar on landscape' Mostyn Estates delivers scathing attack on Pier Pavilion development
The landowner's comments come as pier boss also warns he will halt investment on the historic attraction.

* In our opinion it is a low grade design that falls so far below what is expected in Llandudno, as to be an insult to the original architects of the town.

"It would be a crass scar on the landscape, that clearly can only benefit the applicant alone. *


www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/crass-scar-landscape-mostyn-estates-14024982)
I suspect the only thing Mostyn Estates are upset about is that they're not making any money out of the scheme...

Who remembers them demolishing a chapel in order to build a concrete monstrosity of a shopping centre on Mostyn Street in the 1970s?
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I sent a copy of my objection letter to all of the councillors and I think one or two other people may have done so.  I also emailed all the councillors to request that they read all of the objections and not just rely on the summaries given to them by the planning officers in the report...which as they have made their minds up can hardly be impartial summaries!!  If you have sent in an objection letter the email addresses  of all planning committee councillors are on the FLAG page and also on my Save Our Seafront FBpage...you may have to scroll to find them as more posts have been added since I put them up.  The meeting tomorrow at 2pm at Bondlondeb offices in Conwy is open to the public so if you are able to please turn out to demonstrate opposition.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Nemesis on December 12, 2017, 05:24:27 PM
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Today I received a copy of a letter from Alan Williams Solicitor, which he has submitted to each Planning Committee Member, for them to consider before their meeting on Wednesday. 

We did something similar when a PLC made an application for planning in our street.      The  Planning Office who advised the Planning Committee of the application only present a short precis of the objections raised.    What we did was to deliver personally to every Planning Committee member a copy of every one of our full objections to the proposal.     There were over 32 objections and the letters were delivered about a week before the hearing so that the Councillors could read and digest all of our concerns.
The PLC tried three times to amend the application but in the end we were lucky and the Planning Committee refused the application
almost as many letters of objection

Nine years ago we raised over 100 signatures and over 100 letters of objection to a hostel which was proposed here. Amazingly when we went to the planning office and asked to see the 'objections' half the letters were missing. Strange that when we tacked the subject they were mysteriously found in another file !!! I think we also did as you did and sent letters to all the planning committee. Sufficient to say it all went ahead.......................and there has been trouble in the area ever since. :-X
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 12, 2017, 06:00:41 PM
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Today I received a copy of a letter from Alan Williams Solicitor, which he has submitted to each Planning Committee Member, for them to consider before their meeting on Wednesday. 

We did something similar when a PLC made an application for planning in our street.      The  Planning Office who advised the Planning Committee of the application only present a short precis of the objections raised.    What we did was to deliver personally to every Planning Committee member a copy of every one of our full objections to the proposal.     There were over 32 objections and the letters were delivered about a week before the hearing so that the Councillors could read and digest all of our concerns.
The PLC tried three times to amend the application but in the end we were lucky and the Planning Committee refused the application
almost as many letters of objection

Nine years ago we raised over 100 signatures and over 100 letters of objection to a hostel which was proposed here. Amazingly when we went to the planning office and asked to see the 'objections' half the letters were missing. Strange that when we tacked the subject they were mysteriously found in another file !!! I think we also did as you did and sent letters to all the planning committee. Sufficient to say it all went ahead.......................and there has been trouble in the area ever since. :-X

All objection letters get an official response from the council, so if anyone has posted or emailed an objection and not received a response from CCBC acknowledging receipt they should first check the planning portal on CCBC website and if their letter is not there then chase up the planning department. There are about 48 objections up on the portal.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 12, 2017, 11:57:48 PM
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Perhaps if he does get the go-ahead it can be made next to impossible for him to carry out the work? Surely they can refuse to let him block the pavements or roads with equipment and supplies? Any vehicles could be ticketed. The pier owner could take action over excess noise, etc. How come they can ban plastic window frames but not this?

Orme mac, forgive me, but didn’t you say that you didn’t live in Llandudno , and therefore wouldn’t be adversely affected if a development went ahead on the site?   If so, why are you so vehemently encouraging direct action and disruption?  I’m puzzled.



Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 13, 2017, 12:06:40 AM
I have no axe to grind either way about the Pier Pavilion development, because it doesn’t benefit me, nor does it disadvantage me.
But what I find strange is the level of opposition to this, from very wealthy land owners and business owners (with vested interests maybe?) ....  where were they when that REAL monstrosity, the wind farm, was erected as a complete and utter blight on the seascape.

The Pier pavilion site is as nothing compared to that abomination, and at least the Pavilion development will create some jobs after the initial disruption.

The wind farm is disgusting, it’s ugly and shameful.
It benefits German shareholders and no one else.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2017, 08:47:25 AM
I don't agree about the wind farm, Fester; for a start it's quite a way off the foreshore, is isolated and not affecting anything else, and is a feature of interest, if not somewhat elegant in its own right.  I like windmills.

The new Waldron hutch, however, is going to make a significant difference to the Llandudno skyline; there's nothing elegant about it, it's not in keeping with the Victorian style (for those who like that sort of thing) and apart from benefiting a few wealthy individuals I don't see what positive contribution it's going to make, other than to Wladron's bottom line.

On the flip side, the site has remained vacant for a long time, now, and the fire didn't have the immediate effect of allowing construction there in short order. But the point's been made that CCBC had the opportunity to enforce a CPO and didn't; so perhaps this is yet another incidence of gross incompetence or worse by our beloved leaders.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 13, 2017, 12:09:39 PM
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Orme mac, forgive me, but didn’t you say that you didn’t live in Llandudno , and therefore wouldn’t be adversely affected if a development went ahead on the site?   If so, why are you so vehemently encouraging direct action and disruption?  I’m puzzled.

Whilst I don't live in Llandudno I've visited regularly since 1973 and don't want to see it's unique heritage destroyed. Llandudno as a whole would be "adversely affected" if this development was to go ahead in my opinion and I'm sure many other regular visitors would feel the same way. To me "direct action and disruption" means people on the streets stopping work from progressing. The point I was trying to make, most likely badly, was that should the development be given the go-ahead Mr. Waldron would still be relying on the goodwill of others which he can't take forgranted. For example to complete the frontage of the building on the boundary with the pier he would most likely need to erect scaffolding on land owned by the owner Mr. Williams. Mr. Waldron hasn't even had the decency to ask if such access would be possible and this permission could be refused. The same applies to stopping up orders for the street, blocking pavements, etc. Getting permission to build is one thing, dealing with everything that's required to make the build happen is another.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on December 13, 2017, 12:13:29 PM
Fester ask the many local lads that work on the turbines who it benefits ,I think they would say they keep them in work nothing else round here for them .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on December 13, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
Although not an expert on the party wall act my experience with it leaves me to believe Waldron will not have a problem with construction but subsequent operation of the development is another matter https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/crossheading/rights-etc (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1996/40/crossheading/rights-etc)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 13, 2017, 04:34:49 PM
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Fester ask the many local lads that work on the turbines who it benefits ,I think they would say they keep them in work nothing else round here for them .

To be fair Norm, I do know one of them, and yes, he’s loaded these days!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on December 13, 2017, 05:33:50 PM
Didn't know you new my lad  :D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 13, 2017, 06:09:33 PM
Planning decision- DEFERRED.

Sounds like a cop out to me.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: pebbles on December 13, 2017, 06:11:13 PM
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I don't agree about the wind farm, Fester; for a start it's quite a way off the foreshore, is isolated and not affecting anything else, and is a feature of interest, if not somewhat elegant in its own right.  I like windmills.


Windmill -
(https://www.visitashfordandtenterden.co.uk/media/3001/cranbrook-union-windmill.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&quality=75&width=310&height=505&rnd=131396779970000000)

Turbine -
(https://i2-prod.kentlive.news/incoming/article782304.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/New-giant-wind-turbines-have-been-proposed-for-Thanets-offshore-wind-farm.jpg)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 13, 2017, 09:27:04 PM
The below is from the Save our Seafront campaign FB Page....  they seem to have accepted that today went badly for them.

PLANNING COMMITTEE MEETIING OUTCOME
...decision deferred. Which is only marginally better than it being accepted as they seemed broadly in favour!   What they asked for was for the developer to have more talks with The DeIgn Commission for Wales about how to make his development acceptable to them.  The two things specifically mentioned were incorporating all of the ironwork still remaining into the design and possibly reducing the height. One councillors said he felt it needed to be at least two floors lower. However, the concensus was that the development would not adversely affect Llandudno in the long term.  My personal take on this is that they cannot have been paying any attention to public criticism and had most certainly not read the many objection letters in full (just relied on the, biased, summaries from planning officials who were recommending approval ...and therefore playing down the objections).  This development would blight the whole town for the 3 years it will take to build, traffic chaos along North Parade and backing up onto the promenade road, because of traffic lights at the Church Walks roundabout and by The Grand to control traffic in an out of that section of road (because it will be partially blocked off by the building works) think of the traffic jams this would cause!!!  I could go on for pages about the detrimental effects on the Pier and therefore on
Llandudno but I expect most readers will not have made it this far  down this post!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 14, 2017, 08:36:42 AM
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I don't agree about the wind farm, Fester; for a start it's quite a way off the foreshore, is isolated and not affecting anything else, and is a feature of interest, if not somewhat elegant in its own right.  I like windmills.

A wind turbine is a windmill-like structure specifically developed to generate electricity. They can be seen as the next step in the development of the windmill.


Windmill -
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Turbine -
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Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 14, 2017, 08:43:11 AM
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Planning decision- DEFERRED.

Sounds like a cop out to me.

Agreed. It's a standard ploy by councils when they sense a lot of opposition to something to defer the decision in the hope that the furore will die down over time, and then it can be quietly approved. Exactly like the ploy of submitting a monstrosity for initial approval, then re-submitting a slightly smaller monstrosity in the hope the objectors will have breathed a sigh of relief and believe themselves lucky that the first plan wasn't approved.

It's a great shame there's been no business with a real vision for the place prepared to propose something more appropriate over the past two decades.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 14, 2017, 10:30:03 AM
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Planning decision- DEFERRED.

Sounds like a cop out to me.

Agreed. It's a standard ploy by councils when they sense a lot of opposition to something to defer the decision in the hope that the furore will die down over time, and then it can be quietly approved. Exactly like the ploy of submitting a monstrosity for initial approval, then re-submitting a slightly smaller monstrosity in the hope the objectors will have breathed a sigh of relief and believe themselves lucky that the first plan wasn't approved.

I for one (and my personal campaign effort Save Our Seafront...look out for my SAVE OUR PIER posters on my external fence) will not shut up and will continue to encourage anyone who is opposed to this development to campaign against it and when the next plans are submitted to object formally.  Too many people are moaning about it in public on line forums but not objecting formally to the planning people.  The lack of foresight,  shown at the meeting yesterday, as to how this development would blight the area, damage the pier (structurally and financially) damage all the businesses along North Parade and eventually damage the whole town as a result was staggeringly FRIGHTENING!  How can the planners and councillors be so short sighted. 
 Only Councillor Louise Emmery seems to understand the ramifications of this project, she spoke eloquently and passionately against the development.  I whole heartedly applaud her speech and the fact that she has listened to public opinion (many of the others seemed to just be speaking from a purely personal perspective "I don't have a problem with it"...really, what about Llandudno's constituents who you supposedly represent.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on December 14, 2017, 12:23:52 PM
How will it eventually damage the whole town?

Are you suggesting that people will stop visiting here because they don't like the look of the building?

Would have thought things like no sand on the beach, nowhere to park and nothing to do would put people off coming more than a modern building.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 14, 2017, 03:58:26 PM
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How will it eventually damage the whole town?

Are you suggesting that people will stop visiting here because they don't like the look of the building?

Would have thought things like no sand on the beach, nowhere to park and nothing to do would put people off coming more than a modern building.

Are you suggesting that a gross carbuncle of a monstrosity of a building in the epicentre of the town will actually attract visitors to the Victorian town of Llandudno? 





Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on December 14, 2017, 04:04:47 PM
Rather than the burned out wreck that is there at the moment.....YES  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on December 14, 2017, 05:01:35 PM
Sadly I feel Waldon's carbuncle will have an effect on Llandudno and it's reputation as being an unspoiled seaside town.

Already the original pier entrance has been closed as a direct result of this planning application. During building work (three years!) North Parade behind the site will be reduced to one lane and controlled by traffic lights (Waldron is so remote from his plans he doesn't even know what the road is called). This will impact those wishing to go round the Orme and access Happy Valley. Moreover chaos will ensue around the area for the sightseeing buses and road trains which will be constantly trapped by traffic at the lights.

How access to the Pier along the front entrance can be safely maintained whilst a lot of the building work goes on is questionable. Would you be happy walking down with steel girders being moved above your head? What about all the traders in that area? One slip moving construction materials and their business will be gone (or worse)! There is also the issue of noise from the construction site which will affect those all around that area including the sandy part of the beach, the local hotels and even up in to Happy Valley.

I can see Mr. Williams being told to close the front access for at least part of the time during construction. Of course, maybe CCBC want Llandudno Pier to go the same way as it's near neighbour. As long as they get more council tax coming in they'll be happy I suppose.

Not related to the built but relevant to the Pier is the recent sad announcement that MV Balmoral will not be operating during 2018 http://www.whitefunnel.co.uk/t-update.aspx (http://www.whitefunnel.co.uk/t-update.aspx).
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 14, 2017, 05:40:50 PM
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Rather than the burned out wreck that is there at the moment.....YES  $good$

Excellent.

You obviously want to set a precedent for the future planning of Llandudno for the town to be able to complete with the likes of Swansea, Luton and Coventry in future years that will make Rhyl look like a World Heritage Site in comparison.

The granting of the proposed application will sound the death knell for Llandudno as a 'Victorian' town. It would be perfectly simple to design a building in keeping with local architecture. Mr Waldron obviously wants to build something as soulless and lacking in merit,  character and charm as his Deganwy development; difficult to do in such a beautiful location, but he managed it, in the process ruining the area. He is well on track to do the same to the focal point of Llandudno unless common sense prevails.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 15, 2017, 12:37:00 AM
I dunno Bosun.
You see, I think that the Venue Cymru is arguably more at the ‘epicentre’ of the town, than the Pier Pavilion.
A precedent was set when that was built.  It’s modern, not Victorian in any way, but Llandudno as a town has not suffered from this ‘blight’ on its promenade.

If Mostyn Estates are so benevolent to the town, and so outraged by the new development, then why didn’t they bid for the land and either build something more ‘in keeping’ with tradition.
Or, if they were were really nice people, just landscape it and build nothing.

They’ve all had their chance, and done nothing, but now complain bitterly.

Reminds me of those who are angry about Brexit (as I am ) ... but never bothered to vote in the referendum.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on December 15, 2017, 09:12:57 AM
I don't know much about this Waldron character. His name sounds a bit like a baddie in a Marvel comic. But aside from that (and assuming he isn't really a super villain) What interest do you think he would have in destroying the town of Llandudno?

He's making a large investment in the hopes of some much needed revitalisation in an important but run down area of the town.
Nobody would suffer more than him if all the things you are saying came true and Llandudno was dealt any kind of "death knell"

The industry is changing, what was appealing 20 years ago (and as far as Llandudno is concerned the last 100 years) will not be appealing in 20 years time (when a significant population of the town's regular visitors will be pushing up Daises) 

The modern building and restaurants will appeal massively to the younger generations both local and tourist and hopefully do something to change the reputation of Llandudno to something other than "God's waiting room"
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 15, 2017, 09:22:01 AM
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You see, I think that the Venue Cymru is arguably more at the ‘epicentre’ of the town, than the Pier Pavilion.


Er, Venue Crymru the epicentre of the town? The equivalent of the 'town square' possibly the most prominent site in Llandudno where every visitor and holidaymaker stroll at some stage of their visit and is featured on every instantly recognisable photograph of Llandudno....?

Hmm, let me think about that.......

 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 15, 2017, 09:42:36 AM
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I don't know much about this Waldron character. His name sounds a bit like a baddie in a Marvel comic. But aside from that (and assuming he isn't really a super villain) What interest do you think he would have in destroying the town of Llandudno?

He's making a large investment in the hopes of some much needed revitalisation in an important but run down area of the town.
Nobody would suffer more than him if all the things you are saying came true and Llandudno was dealt any kind of "death knell"

The industry is changing, what was appealing 20 years ago (and as far as Llandudno is concerned the last 100 years) will not be appealing in 20 years time (when a significant population of the town's regular visitors will be pushing up Daises) 

The modern building and restaurants will appeal massively to the younger generations both local and tourist and hopefully do something to change the reputation of Llandudno to something other than "God's waiting room"

Utter rubbish. The towns had that building philosophy in the 1960's killed themselves off whilst the towns that preserved their heritage, Ludlow, Berwick, Rye, are all  thriving prosperous towns. The one thing that Llandudno has got is the Victorian architectural atmosphere of the promenade frontage. Kill that with this building and watch the town slowly die. Mr Waldron doesn't care about that, Deganwy Quay is proof of that. As long as his flats sell, he'll be happy on the profit. 

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on December 15, 2017, 10:27:47 AM
You're talking about massive urban redevelopment. Not the replacement of one derelict building!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 15, 2017, 10:41:25 AM
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You're talking about massive urban redevelopment. Not the replacement of one derelict building!

How do you think it starts.....?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 15, 2017, 12:01:23 PM
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He's making a large investment in the hopes of some much needed revitalisation in an important but run down area of the town.
Nobody would suffer more than him if all the things you are saying came true and Llandudno was dealt any kind of "death knell"

I suspect he's making a large investment in the simple hope of a much larger return.  After all, he's not been the first to try it. And if Llandudno sacrificed its uniqueness the effects would be gradual, indeed, by which time he'd no doubt have moved elsewhere.

But he's also making it a choice: stick with the unappealing 'hole' or allow him to build. The sad fact is that no one's come forward with any serious money and ideas to do anything else.  Perhaps CCBC should have gone for the CPO route. Why didn't that happen, I wonder?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on December 15, 2017, 12:06:19 PM
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You see, I think that the Venue Cymru is arguably more at the ‘epicentre’ of the town, than the Pier Pavilion.


Er, Venue Crymru the epicentre of the town? The equivalent of the 'town square' possibly the most prominent site in Llandudno where every visitor and holidaymaker stroll at some stage of their visit and is featured on every instantly recognisable photograph of Llandudno....?

Hmm, let me think about that.......

Bosun, it’s debatable as I said, but it’s interesting to note that our beloved visitors are all dropped off at the coach park near VC, and expected to make their way to your ‘epicentre’... but that’s another issue.

BTR,  I don’t think you can be dealt a ‘death knell’,  it’s the tolling of a funereal bell. 
Don’t you know anything man?   :laugh:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on December 15, 2017, 12:48:06 PM
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You see, I think that the Venue Cymru is arguably more at the ‘epicentre’ of the town, than the Pier Pavilion.


Er, Venue Crymru the epicentre of the town? The equivalent of the 'town square' possibly the most prominent site in Llandudno where every visitor and holidaymaker stroll at some stage of their visit and is featured on every instantly recognisable photograph of Llandudno....?

Hmm, let me think about that.......

Bosun, it’s debatable as I said, but it’s interesting to note that our beloved visitors are all dropped off at the coach park near VC, and expected to make their way to your ‘epicentre’... but that’s another issue.

BTR,  I don’t think you can be dealt a ‘death knell’,  it’s the tolling of a funereal bell. 
Don’t you know anything man?   :laugh:

I agree with Bosun, Venue is not the epicentre and if people are dropped of at the coach park because there is nowhere else for coaches to park!  Our guests come by private car or train as do thousands more.  Our guests represent the overall demographic of our population (which is aging so there are more older people around everywhere these days). we get lots of younger people (20s and 30s) and lots of tourists from abroad who love the place for its old fashioned charm.  Adam Williams wanted to buy the land but Waldron 'piped him to the post' he wants to develop  it and reincorporate it back into the pier.  His plans sound preferable to Waldron's, much more in line with what the majority of people are saying they want to see there. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on December 15, 2017, 01:37:52 PM
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You see, I think that the Venue Cymru is arguably more at the ‘epicentre’ of the town, than the Pier Pavilion.


Er, Venue Crymru the epicentre of the town? The equivalent of the 'town square' possibly the most prominent site in Llandudno where every visitor and holidaymaker stroll at some stage of their visit and is featured on every instantly recognisable photograph of Llandudno....?

Hmm, let me think about that.......

Bosun, it’s debatable as I said, but it’s interesting to note that our beloved visitors are all dropped off at the coach park near VC, and expected to make their way to your ‘epicentre’... but that’s another issue.

BTR,  I don’t think you can be dealt a ‘death knell’,  it’s the tolling of a funereal bell. 
Don’t you know anything man?   :laugh:

I was thinking of dealt a death blow. But thanks for the info  :P

BTW I dare say a death knell would sound a lot more pleasant than your Motorhead noise  8)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: pebbles on December 16, 2017, 01:41:39 PM
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I don't agree about the wind farm, Fester; for a start it's quite a way off the foreshore, is isolated and not affecting anything else, and is a feature of interest, if not somewhat elegant in its own right.  I like windmills.

A wind turbine is a windmill-like structure specifically developed to generate electricity. They can be seen as the next step in the development of the windmill.


haha your opinion, not the majority ;)
The things in the sea are wind turbines. Full stop.

Windmill -
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Turbine -
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Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on December 16, 2017, 02:19:48 PM
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A wind turbine is a windmill-like structure specifically developed to generate electricity. They can be seen as the next step in the development of the windmill.
haha your opinion, not the majority ;)
The things in the sea are wind turbines. Full stop.


Actually, it's a quote from Wikipedia and Britannica says the same thing, so it's not just my opinion. The "things" in the sea are windmills; they can also be called turbines, as a turbine and a windmill are both "machines for producing continuous power in which a wheel or rotor, typically fitted with vanes, is made to revolve by a fast-moving flow of water, steam, gas, air, or other fluid." . Windmill is a generic term, as is Turbine, but most turbines are associated with jet engines.

Interestingly, the prime function of the Dutch Windmills was to provide power to drain the land. Thus these latest windmills are simply a different design. They may not be as picturesque of course, but they're still essentially windmills.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: mondie on December 16, 2017, 04:51:26 PM
Spotted on this arvos walk.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2017, 04:57:17 PM
Looks like Waldron has already been at it and blown it over.      ;D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on December 18, 2017, 09:38:54 AM
Surely Parc Llandudno is now the epicentre of town?
Venue Cymru was the first carbuncle on the seafront but it just about get's away with it, many will disagree but I think the new lifeboat station is the second and whatever is stuck on the pier will probably end up being the third the way things are going.. Whatever is built there though has to be financially viable, recreating a Victorian glass dome isn't. I can only believe those that want to leave it as a squalid hole are only concerned with loosing their sea view.
Will developing the site bring the town to it's knees? Not if it's handled correctly it shouldn't. It might make developing the site more expensive but that should be taken in to consideration when planning whatever is to be built there. As to causing accidents,fatalities even,due to building works, that argument is scraping the barrel.
Luxury apartments annoy those that can't afford them but come on, affordable houses in such a prime position? Not going to happen and besides they wouldn't stay affordable for long and they would be a design compromise on such a fine spot.
Would there be such feeling against building a new hotel? Probably not as much as there is to apartments but there doesn't seem to be any interest in such a development.
Do we want to keep and treasure our pier? Yes, we certainly do and it's economic viability should not be threatened by any development whatsoever In my humble opinion.
It's time our councillors and planners earned their crust and ensured the right thing is done for the town and so far I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on December 18, 2017, 11:05:58 AM
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Adam Williams wanted to buy the land but Waldron 'piped him to the post' he wants to develop  it and reincorporate it back into the pier.  His plans sound preferable to Waldron's, much more in line with what the majority of people are saying they want to see there.
What plans are these? I've not seen any mention of them online or in the paper? How does he expect to garner any public support when he doesn't show people his plans?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on December 18, 2017, 04:10:40 PM
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Surely Parc Llandudno is now the epicentre of town?

It's a sad day when a retail park is considered the epicentre of a Victorian seaside town famed for it's pier, promenade and architecture.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on December 18, 2017, 06:04:14 PM
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Surely Parc Llandudno is now the epicentre of town?

It's a sad day when a retail park is considered the epicentre of a Victorian seaside town famed for it's pier, promenade and architecture.

Too true but that is where everyone appears to want to head towards.  I think the possibility of M&S heading that way is as big a blow to the town's well being as any development on the pavilion site.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on January 04, 2018, 06:57:26 PM
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Adam Williams wanted to buy the land but Waldron 'piped him to the post' he wants to develop  it and reincorporate it back into the pier.  His plans sound preferable to Waldron's, much more in line with what the majority of people are saying they want to see there.
What plans are these? I've not seen any mention of them online or in the paper? How does he expect to garner any public support when he doesn't show people his plans?

I believe he is planning to 'go public' but I don't know when.  In the meantime I have made a complaint to the council about the conduct of the meeting on 13 December, when so very few of the objections/issues were discussed. I have also sent an open letter to Mr. Waldron. You can see the full (3 page) letter on Save Our Seafront Facebook page.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2018, 05:11:34 PM
In the street where I live a builder had purchased a large plot of land that was in effect landlocked with no access for development.
He was able to build a house on the land only when he got the consent of the owner of the land but the ownership of the access remained with the owner who gave the consent to the builder.
Since then the builder had applied and obtained planning permission to develop a number of houses on the plot.

However the owner of the access said that the agreement was only for the builder's personal home and not for the development of a mini estate and has refused access for the other houses so the development couldn't go ahead despite the fact that the application was granted by the Planning Commitee

My comparison with the Pier Pavilion is because Adam Williams owns the land on the Pier and access that was previously there from the Pier Pavilion, was when it was a leisure complex.   Waldron's proposal is to change the site to a property development so he shouldn't be able to claim access on historical grounds.

Likewise with his intended car parking, there is no precedent for this because the path that would go down to the car park was previously the path to Tucson's Amusements which again was a leisure complex.
Furthermore the access to the car park would be across the promenade and CCBC own the leasehold to it while Mostyn Estates own the freehold to it.    If either CCBC or Mostyn Estates objects to the access then that should be the end of the matter.       
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on February 06, 2018, 05:11:21 PM
Revised plans (v3) now on planning portal.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 06, 2018, 05:29:19 PM
It looks like there is a main entrance into the building from the Pier, but there are kiosks there at present blocking any access, so what's happening behind the scenes?

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on February 07, 2018, 09:03:59 AM
I think the new proposal is far more acceptable:
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on February 07, 2018, 10:41:35 AM
On face value that does look better, but, it is an artists impression, and I cannot see a building that size fitting into the *hole*.
 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on February 07, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
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It looks like there is a main entrance into the building from the Pier, but there are kiosks there at present blocking any access, so what's happening behind the scenes?
There will have to be a legal battle between Williams and Waldron over right of access. The former believes there is none and so he doesn't have to remove his kiosks, the latter believes there is right of access. The planning people don't care it's not a planning consideration. The planning department told me that if approval is granted they would put a condition on it saying no building work can start until acces issue is sorted out. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 07, 2018, 10:25:05 PM
CMG,   the access to the Pier Pavilion from the pier itself is just one issue but there is another and that is the right of access for the cars that would be parked under the building.
There is no precedent for that and as the land is not owned by Waldron then he should not assume that he can have automatic access across the promenade.
If either the Freeholder of the land, namely Mostyn Estates or the CCBC  who own the lease objects to access then that should be the end of the matter and the application can go no further
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on February 08, 2018, 08:57:44 AM
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CMG,   the access to the Pier Pavilion from the pier itself is just one issue but there is another and that is the right of access for the cars that would be parked under the building.
There is no precedent for that and as the land is not owned by Waldron then he should not assume that he can have automatic access across the promenade.
If either the Freeholder of the land, namely Mostyn Estates or the CCBC  who own the lease objects to access then that should be the end of the matter and the application can go no further
Out of interest, I looked it up online and found that 'The owner of a property adjoining a highway has a common law right of access to the highway,without restriction, from any part of his or her property'.

If we think about it, most properties in Llandudno have to cross CCBC owned/leased property, i.e the pavement or verge, in order to access the road from their house. As a precedent has therefore been set, it would not be realistic to imagine that it would be any different in this scenario.  Anyway, as part of the Planning Process, CCBC Highways are consulted and have to give their go-ahead to any proposed access arrangements.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on February 08, 2018, 09:32:39 AM
I wonder if that will apply if there was no vehicular access before and pedestrian access on the other side was previously in a totally different location?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 08, 2018, 11:58:14 AM
That's a very good point Bri  and there has also been a change of use proposed for the site.

A situation arose in our street some years back when someone was allowed by the owner of the land to have access across their land to the road and build a house for their sole use.     Later the builder applied for and got planning permission to build a further three properties on the land.

However the owner of the land refused access for the development and stated that a change of use had occurred and that was the end of that.
CCBC granted planning permission but because of the access that development never got off the ground
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on February 09, 2018, 08:36:01 AM
The difference is that the access in your case was owned by a private landowner, rather than the local authority.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 09, 2018, 04:01:17 PM
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The difference is that the access in your case was owned by a private landowner, rather than the local authority.

I agree with you Dave, but isn't Mostyn Estates a private landowner?     The local authority only has the lease on the promenade and Mostyn Estates will have the conditions of the lease so tight that nothing could be done without their approval

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Cambrian on February 09, 2018, 05:14:43 PM
Correct Hugo but there is a possible complication in that the promenade was designated a public highway under the Llandudno Improvement Act.  As far as I know it can only cease to be a public highway if it is stopped up by a Court Order. This could run and run - no pun intended!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 09, 2018, 07:19:50 PM
It's getting too complicated for me, I'm still getting used to bikes on the Prom.        *cycle*

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/llandudno-prom-bye-law-wrong-say-2703684 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/llandudno-prom-bye-law-wrong-say-2703684)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on February 10, 2018, 03:45:42 PM
Look up a story about Mr and Mrs Crosthwait taking out an injunction against the new Chelsea football stadium ...maybe those of us affected by both loss of light AND loss of privacy could do the same thing?  Think I'll have to investigate!  WWW
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on February 10, 2018, 04:15:30 PM
 ££$                        >?>??
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on February 10, 2018, 04:44:06 PM
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/new-chelsea-stadium-60000-capacity-stamford-bridge-redevelopment-plans-boosted-council-a3740821.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/new-chelsea-stadium-60000-capacity-stamford-bridge-redevelopment-plans-boosted-council-a3740821.html)

That didn't work!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on February 11, 2018, 04:19:17 PM
Unfortunately I foresee the most likely legal action will be taken by the purchasers of flats within Waldron's folly who will complain about the noise and food smells coming from the pier. Given that Mr Williams has already stated that 70% of the pier's income comes from that section then it will no longer be able to stay open. Just as new people who move in to villages and demand chiming clocks and church bells are silenced then in Llandudno they'll end up shutting the pier.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on February 15, 2018, 04:20:43 PM
Last night there was a new entry on the Planning Portal, a response from the Design Commission for Wales.  Its obvious from their memo  that Waldron has not been in touch with them to discuss how he might modify his building so that they approve of it, as instructed to by the planning committee on 13 December.  It is also obvious that they still don't like it and disapprove of the building overall, not just the cosmetic look of the outside aesthetics.  they say all their previous comments still stand... pretty negative comments if you read the last report they submitted.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on February 16, 2018, 08:44:10 PM
It will go ahead CMG.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on February 20, 2018, 09:03:59 PM
The Planning Committee will also have to consider Section 66 of the Listed Building Act of 1990,  which provides that a planning authority of planning inspector, in dealing with an application for the planning permission for development that affects a listed building or its settings is to have special regard to the desirability or preserving the building or its setting or any features of special architectural or historic interest which it possesses. And the courts have confirmed the importance of the duties under the Listed Buildings Act, as a factor of "considerable importance and weight", when making decisions on planning applications. It follows that the duty to preserve the historic environment is not a secondary issue in relation to the determination of planning applications; it is a very important one. 

In my opinion the Planners have for the sake of expedience, omitted to fully consider this part of the Act and should re-examine the dominance of the proposed development over neighbouring listed properties. The momentum is building against this build and if all the planners continue to ignore the Law it gives us perfect reason to seek redress and compensation from the Ombudsman.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on February 21, 2018, 12:17:59 AM
So much double standards seems to be applied to this development.
When I go past Bodafon School, which is as modern, as ugly and as monolithic as anything Mr Waldron has proposed, it makes me sick because there was no massive opposition to it being built..... and that was built on virginal GREEN belt!

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on February 21, 2018, 10:19:52 AM
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So much double standards seems to be applied to this development.
When I go past Bodafon School, which is as modern, as ugly and as monolithic as anything Mr Waldron has proposed, it makes me sick because there was no massive opposition to it being built..... and that was built on virginal GREEN belt!

One of the reasons that there was little opposition was because it was a replacement and not a new build so I presume we talking about the recent build as opposed to the one it replaced? It does lack charm doesn't it but there again schools are supposed to be about the future not the past so a modern design is more appropriate perhaps?
Another reason for the lack of opposition might be that the school provides a special service to the community  whereas the Pier development is all about money for a few interested parties .Whilst I agree that whatever is built there has to be financially viable I have a feeling that no matter what is proposed, even if it was a mirror image extension of the Grand Hotel to fit in with the existing architecture, there would be objections by the few whilst the rest of the community would be happy.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on February 21, 2018, 11:55:07 AM
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Whilst I agree that whatever is built there has to be financially viable I have a feeling that no matter what is proposed, even if it was a mirror image extension of the Grand Hotel to fit in with the existing architecture, there would be objections by the few whilst the rest of the community would be happy.
$good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on February 21, 2018, 05:20:55 PM
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So much double standards seems to be applied to this development.
When I go past Bodafon School, which is as modern, as ugly and as monolithic as anything Mr Waldron has proposed, it makes me sick because there was no massive opposition to it being built..... and that was built on virginal GREEN belt!

One of the reasons that there was little opposition was because it was a replacement and not a new build so I presume we talking about the recent build as opposed to the one it replaced? It does lack charm doesn't it but there again schools are supposed to be about the future not the past so a modern design is more appropriate perhaps?
Another reason for the lack of opposition might be that the school provides a special service to the community  whereas the Pier development is all about money for a few interested parties .Whilst I agree that whatever is built there has to be financially viable I have a feeling that no matter what is proposed, even if it was a mirror image extension of the Grand Hotel to fit in with the existing architecture, there would be objections by the few whilst the rest of the community would be happy.


The reason there was no opposition to the school being built on Bodafon Fields is quite simple. Planning permission for a new school was never applied for. An extension to the old school was applied for and was approved. Only after the old school was fully demolished was retrospective planning permission ask for and granted for the new Green and White Box. The County Council knew exactly what they were doing and also knew how emotive an issue building on Bodafon would be, so they circumnavigated the problem of telling their electorate and got away with forcing another totally out of keeping Building on the People of Llandudno. Conwy County Borough Council care nothing for our Heritage and the sooner they are taken over and abolished, the better we will be served.  $angry$ 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2018, 10:50:56 PM
This and other applications aside, one thing that puzzles me about these building applications and the CCBC  Planning Committee is that they seem to be open ended.
For one thing a company can make an application for a multi million pound project and yet not have the visible means of funding the project and if it all goes pear shaped then the CCBC has no come back on the directors who have proposed the application.
Also no time limits seem to be included for completion of the finished application.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 07, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Revamped proposals for an £18m apartment and restaurant complex that would create hundreds of jobs in Llandudno will go before planners next week.

Conwy’s planning officers have recommended the Pier Pavilion development is approved

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/revamped-pier-pavilion-proposals-sympathetic-14374935 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/revamped-pier-pavilion-proposals-sympathetic-14374935)

First time I've heard about this........

"They say three floors of parking will be available to neighbouring businesses and hotels and the development includes a large atrium and walkway from the pier through to Happy Valley Road."
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 07, 2018, 11:22:28 AM
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"a large atrium and walkway from the pier through to Happy Valley Road."

A walkway to nowhere as access to the pier will be blocked off by the existing shops.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 08, 2018, 10:23:53 PM
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Revamped proposals for an £18m apartment and restaurant complex that would create hundreds of jobs in Llandudno will go before planners next week.

Conwy’s planning officers have recommended the Pier Pavilion development is approved

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/revamped-pier-pavilion-proposals-sympathetic-14374935 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/revamped-pier-pavilion-proposals-sympathetic-14374935)

First time I've heard about this........

"They say three floors of parking will be available to neighbouring businesses and hotels and the development includes a large atrium and walkway from the pier through to Happy Valley Road."

3 floors of parking which is 85 spaces. CCBC rule about parking provision means that 110 spaces are required just for the flats. So 85 isn't even enough for the residential part of the development...let alone for external users! aND CCBC highways department pointed out thet there is a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial spaces in it.  This statement about parking being available for hotels etc is out and out bull s**t. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 09, 2018, 01:23:53 AM
If that development gets any smaller it will be roughly the size of a pier kiosk anyway!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 09, 2018, 11:36:40 AM
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If that development gets any smaller it will be roughly the size of a pier kiosk anyway!

Hopefully so small that it disappears.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 09, 2018, 05:53:56 PM
So, you really are serious that a hole in the ground is better than a development?  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 09, 2018, 07:06:25 PM
There's one school of thought that suggests because Waldron has shown interest and is prepared to put up / borrow money to finance the project the time might be right for an investment company to create something more additive to the town: a virtual theme park has been suggested.  It would be a shame it that possibility existed and was lost, simply because a cheap and easy option was being taken.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2018, 08:28:30 AM
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So, you really are serious that a hole in the ground is better than a development?  &shake&

The more I hear about this development the more I'm inclined to think that no building is better than a bad one.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 12, 2018, 11:05:01 AM
Mostyn Estates continue to oppose Llandudno redevelopment plan
Conwy Council's planning officers have recommended the plan for approval with a committee meeting booked for Wednesday to discuss the bid

Edward Hiller, managing director of Mostyn Estates, said while this was an improvement on the initial application it still fell short of “what I would expect planners to approve for this site”.

He said: “This is to replace a leisure facility in the former Pier Pavilion and while I appreciate that needs do change with time we are fundamentally opposed to residential on a site like this, adjacent to hotels and leisure.
“A residential led development conflicts with what is in the vicinity.

“There are a number of other serious issues like the lack of detail on the quality of the build.
“I hope that the planning committee see sense and are not supportive of their officers.”
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mostyn-estates-continue-oppose-llandudno-14397484 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mostyn-estates-continue-oppose-llandudno-14397484)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 13, 2018, 08:47:17 AM
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Mostyn Estates continue to oppose Llandudno redevelopment plan
Conwy Council's planning officers have recommended the plan for approval with a committee meeting booked for Wednesday to discuss the bid

Edward Hiller, managing director of Mostyn Estates, said while this was an improvement on the initial application it still fell short of “what I would expect planners to approve for this site”.

He said: “This is to replace a leisure facility in the former Pier Pavilion and while I appreciate that needs do change with time we are fundamentally opposed to residential on a site like this, adjacent to hotels and leisure.
“A residential led development conflicts with what is in the vicinity.

“There are a number of other serious issues like the lack of detail on the quality of the build.
“I hope that the planning committee see sense and are not supportive of their officers.”
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mostyn-estates-continue-oppose-llandudno-14397484 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mostyn-estates-continue-oppose-llandudno-14397484)
One wonders why Mostyn Estates didn't come up with their own development plan for a new leisure facility on the site in the 20 years since the fire?

Fact is, no-one else apart from Waldron wants to develop the site. Yes, it's certainly a shame that we can't have a recreation of the Pavilion with a variety of indoor attractions/facilities but no-one is willing to put up the money to do it.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 13, 2018, 03:52:36 PM
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Fact is, no-one else apart from Waldron wants to develop the site. Yes, it's certainly a shame that we can't have a recreation of the Pavilion with a variety of indoor attractions/facilities but no-one is willing to put up the money to do it.

Waldron is only doing it for profit and doesn't care about the short and long term effects this development will have on Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on March 13, 2018, 04:29:49 PM
A profit? How dare he  :o Saying that, and to echo Fester, how on earth can whatever he builds have a worse short or long term affect than the hole in the ground that has been there for the past 20 years? The only thing that could do that, would be for him to build a bigger hole  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 13, 2018, 06:57:12 PM
A CalIn has been requested CCBC has been, issued with a directive NOT to grant permission while the decide if the Welsh Gvt will call it in or not. CCBC spare allowed to continue processing/discussing the application and CAN reject it but they cannot approve it tomorrow!  WWW
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 13, 2018, 08:02:00 PM
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A profit? How dare he  :o Saying that, and to echo Fester, how on earth can whatever he builds have a worse short or long term affect than the hole in the ground that has been there for the past 20 years? The only thing that could do that, would be for him to build a bigger hole  $good$

The hole in the ground is all but invisible and has no detrimental effect on surrounding businesses. The same can't be said of Waldron's proposed carbuncle.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2018, 02:02:59 AM
I’ve come to the conclusion that those few who now lead the opposition to the new development are doing so out of selfish and short sighted self interest.
As, to be fair, I would, if the view from my house was adversely affected.
That about summarises the issue now I think.
The opposition have made it abundantly clear that they don’t want anything building on that site, EVER.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 14, 2018, 02:48:23 AM
Interesting last minute development

http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/StreamDocPage/obj.pdf?DocNo=2879921&PDF=true&content=obj.pdf (http://edm.conwy.gov.uk/Planning/StreamDocPage/obj.pdf?DocNo=2879921&PDF=true&content=obj.pdf)

The planning committee meeting is scheduled for 2pm this afternoon at Bodlondeb.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on March 14, 2018, 11:38:01 AM
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I’ve come to the conclusion that those few who now lead the opposition to the new development are doing so out of selfish and short sighted self interest.
As, to be fair, I would, if the view from my house was adversely affected.
That about summarises the issue now I think.
The opposition have made it abundantly clear that they don’t want anything building on that site, EVER.

We made our living from people who wanted to come to Llandudno because it wasn't like everywhere else it was a largely intact Victorian Seascape set in a Conservation area, put there to protect and enhance the town. It is NOTselfish or short sighted self interest to want to protect that principal. Wake up Fester and take a long slow look at who have objected to Mr. Waldrons Plans and then ask why there aren't thousands of letters of support for the development on the Planning Portal.

As to your second point:  For the last 21 years we have had the privilege of owning 1 of the 3 most affected properties should this development proceed. At no time have either my Wife or I raised any objection to the Pavilion site being redeveloped in a manner that is in keeping with its setting. This is not what is currently being proposed by Mr Waldron and you know it. Now safer un-vested heads are going to look into the matter and I await the outcome of their deliberations with interest.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 14, 2018, 12:20:17 PM
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I’ve come to the conclusion that those few who now lead the opposition to the new development are doing so out of selfish and short sighted self interest.
As, to be fair, I would, if the view from my house was adversely affected.
That about summarises the issue now I think.
The opposition have made it abundantly clear that they don’t want anything building on that site, EVER.

We made our living from people who wanted to come to Llandudno because it wasn't like everywhere else it was a largely intact Victorian Seascape set in a Conservation area, put there to protect and enhance the town. It is NOTselfish or short sighted self interest to want to protect that principal. Wake up Fester and take a long slow look at who have objected to Mr. Waldrons Plans and then ask why there aren't thousands of letters of support for the development on the Planning Portal.

As to your second point:  For the last 21 years we have had the privilege of owning 1 of the 3 most affected properties should this development proceed. At no time have either my Wife or I raised any objection to the Pavilion site being redeveloped in a manner that is in keeping with its setting. This is not what is currently being proposed by Mr Waldron and you know it. Now safer un-vested heads are going to look into the matter and I await the outcome of their deliberations with interest.

Completely agree as an owner of one of the other properties most affected I'm not bothered about loss of a view...there are far more things at stake than the view which would adversely affect the whole town. I would like to see it developed to the same height as before with something that will benefit the tourist industry in Llandudno..,and therefore be for the greater good. Adam Williams plans sound like just the ticket....but Waldron won't sell to him. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 14, 2018, 12:23:51 PM
IT was our AM, Janet Finch-Saunders who requested the Call-In. She isn't affected by loss of a view or in any other way personally...and I presume she has the long term interests of her constituency in mind.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on March 14, 2018, 12:29:39 PM
We all agree that something Has to be built there , but Waldron seems to ride rough shod over everyone , I am very fearful that ccbc will give their agreement to this as this lot are so spineless ,   1 how many local residents could afford one ,2 who has he got earmarked for the two restaraunts  as the one that the tudno castle had comming in won't be , 3 I,m wondering how low his underground car park will be as having worked on the pier in the 70s under there used to flood on the high tides .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 14, 2018, 01:09:04 PM
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I’ve come to the conclusion that those few who now lead the opposition to the new development are doing so out of selfish and short sighted self interest.
As, to be fair, I would, if the view from my house was adversely affected.
That about summarises the issue now I think.
The opposition have made it abundantly clear that they don’t want anything building on that site, EVER.

Even on this site, with a comparatively small number of votes cast, only a meagre 3% favour the Waldron plan, and 72% favour a more leisure-oriented approach, so I suspect your assessment is way off, F.

I'm aware no one else has suggested putting any money in to build something else, but to be fair we don't know for sure they haven't.  We have no knowledge of whether any enquires about buying the site were made to any of the owners during the time it's been empty. Is it possible they've been squatting on it, waiting for it to acquire value?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2018, 04:15:37 PM
It’s an emotive issue, especially if you have a vested interest as you’ve declared.
I have no vested interest either way, so I look at the Facebook campaign page, which has very few likes and even fewer informed contributors.
Like I said, if it affected me personally, I’d be up in arms against it.... I really would.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 14, 2018, 05:07:48 PM
RE todays council meeting.....FB   saying voting went 5 for 5 against, the chair had deciding vote, she voted for.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 14, 2018, 05:53:06 PM
On such a sensitive issue, I wonder what would have happened had the Chair abstained?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on March 14, 2018, 06:25:06 PM
The Chairwoman had no choice but to cast the final vote, she was mortified as it hadn't happened before. I was at the meeting and we were all shocked as it seemed to be going against for the best part of the debate. The owner of the Pier gave a very good speech and the Committee mainly spoke about highways and where the people who would use the restaurant would park. There was a lot of sneering going on from the people with the pier owner when the fire escape details were being discussed.They did announce it would be Webcast so if anyone is interested it should be on to view soon  :o
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 14, 2018, 06:35:58 PM
Thank you for the explanation, Meleri.

I watched the Webast at home.

I also watched last month’s Cabinet meeting where the change to a four-weekly bin collection was approved with a vote of 5-4.

On that occasion, I seem to recall the Council Leader was the Chair and he voted together with the eight other cabinet members without adopting a chair’s casting vote.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on March 14, 2018, 10:36:10 PM
I'm sorry but I forgot quite an important point earlier, that the application got called in to the Welsh Government (Planning Directorate) and they issued a direction not to grant planning permission in respect of the application or any development of the same kind, without the prior authorisation of the Welsh Ministers. So although CCBC Planning Committee voted for it, the last word goes to The Welsh Ministers. A few of the Councillors and the Chairwoman weren't very happy about this at all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 15, 2018, 12:38:14 AM
So it’s going ahead then?
Because the Welsh Assembly will have to rule on the legal planning criteria only.
Therefore it’s passed I believe.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 15, 2018, 07:29:04 AM
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It’s an emotive issue, especially if you have a vested interest as you’ve declared.
I have no vested interest either way, so I look at the Facebook campaign page, which has very few likes and even fewer informed contributors.
Like I said, if it affected me personally, I’d be up in arms against it.... I really would.

According to the straw-poll, the majority of people who don't have a vested interest oppose the current plans; so if that's your criteria for winning a debate, you've already lost. Personally I'm opposed and I've never even heard of a Facebook campaign, what does that dying website have to do with local opinion anyway?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 15, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
As I've said before, the problem is that there has never been another plan put forward for the site, even though developers have had 20+ years in order to acquire the site and submit plans...they chose not to do so.

Conwy Council, and its predecessor authority, have had 30+ years to acquire the Pavilion/site under a Compulsory Purchase Order...but chose not to do so.

The Pier Owner had the same ability to acquire the Pavilion site that Mr Waldron had...but chose not to do so.

Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2018, 09:48:55 AM
Not that I'm doubting you, Dave, but how do we know for sure that "The Pier Owner had the same ability to acquire the Pavilion site that Mr Waldron had...but chose not to do so."?

I've always wondered why the CPO process was never invoked so perhaps the council should be asked?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 15, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Ha, Edith, well... the Facebook campaign is THE most prominent media for the opponents to the Pier Pavilion  development, so if it has so few members and contributors, then I’d say that it’s them who are struggling to win the debate.
Anyway, as I’ve said, I don’t have a strong opinion whether it’s built or not, just trying to give a bit of balance.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on March 15, 2018, 12:31:18 PM
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Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.

Please don't let facts get in the way of scare mongering. It's quite obvious that every other visitor that Llandudno has ever had will stop visiting, it's proven fact their retinas will burn out instantly if they are subjected to look at a building that is not in a Victorian style.
Every other hotel in Llandudno will close down apart from these new complexes that cost 4 billion pound to live in that no local can afford anyway.

We're doomed I tell ya! Leave the hole in the ground, for the sake of the children leave the hole in the ground.

(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/tv/2017/12/22/TELEMMGLPICT000148383379_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqVzuuqpFlyLIwiB6NTmJwRMWbYwzrg_3PLcMwCu9G8U.jpeg?imwidth=450)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 15, 2018, 01:28:02 PM
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and create 100 permanent jobs....

..er, perhaps I'm missing something, but where do the 100 permanent jobs come from? And of what quality?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 15, 2018, 01:55:51 PM
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As I've said before, the problem is that there has never been another plan put forward for the site, even though developers have had 20+ years in order to acquire the site and submit plans...they chose not to do so.

Conwy Council, and its predecessor authority, have had 30+ years to acquire the Pavilion/site under a Compulsory Purchase Order...but chose not to do so.

The Pier Owner had the same ability to acquire the Pavilion site that Mr Waldron had...but chose not to do so.

Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.

I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 15, 2018, 04:08:11 PM
Controversial plans to build flats at Llandudno's pier pavilion site have been delayed again after a last minute intervention by the Welsh Government.
Officers at the council had recommended that permission for the scheme be granted at today's meeting of the planning committee.

But committee chairwoman, Sue Lloyd-Williams, told members a letter had been received by the council calling in any decision to grant.
She said: "I must convey how disappointed I was with regards to the Welsh Government's intervention. The letter arrived with us via email last night. And it feels to me that the local democracy voice is being taken away from us."The intervention of the government, was at the request of an unknown objector meaning that ministers would have to consider whether they should be involved with the decision on the future of the site.

Cllr Williams added: "In all my time in over nine years I have never seen anything like this happen before."Councillors were tied by five votes each on whether to approve or reject the plans with Cllr Lloyd-Williams providing the casting vote in favour of granting permission subject to the prior authority of Welsh Government ministers.

The ward councillor for the area, Cllr Louise Emery was also worried about the impact of the development on tourism.
She said: " I am very keen to look at the vision for tourism in the town. And within this vision we have to look at the need for more bed space in the prime areas of the town.

"We want quality bed space, it's not out of ambition to suggest that a major hotel brand would be interested in coming into Llandudno and it is not to suggest that an all-year attraction that has been asked for for the last 20 odd years in this town and when we talk about these things we talk about where.

"There is only one strategic site left in Llandudno and it is this site. We have to be ambitious for the town. This is our chance to do something great with this site.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/controversial-pier-pavilion-site-plans-14414949 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/controversial-pier-pavilion-site-plans-14414949)

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on March 15, 2018, 05:10:09 PM
Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 15, 2018, 05:23:01 PM
Whiist I respect the right of the Chair to have had a casting vote, I would like to have heard her give her reasons to support her decision.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2018, 06:24:03 PM
She's the councillor for Llansannan, I believe. So well placed to make decisions directly affecting Llandudno.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2018, 06:27:51 PM
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Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.

Yes;  the entire business of how the site was passed to Mr Waldron does, I suspect, need investigating. There's a great deal we don't know - including what motivated the representative of a constituency so far from Llandudno to vote in favour.

We really needed a good hotel to set up, there. And since Llandudno is still a hot spot for visitors, one has to ask why that hasn't happened.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2018, 06:31:50 PM
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Whiist I respect the right of the Chair to have had a casting vote, I would like to have heard her give her reasons to support her decision.

Whether you agree with the planning application or not, this site is a special and sensitive place.    Cllr Sue Lloyd Williams seems to be a bit miffed according to her comments   " I must convey how disappointed I was with regards to the Welsh Government's intervention. The letter arrived with us via email last night. And it feels to me that the local democracy voice is being taken away from us."The intervention of the government, was at the request of an unknown objector meaning that ministers would have to consider whether they should be involved with the decision on the future of the site.
Perhaps it's not a bad thing to have the Welsh Government involved in this application because CCBC'S  record in planning is nothing to be proud of.     For example  Penmorfa Hotel,  Castle Hotel,  West Shore sea defence and cycle track,  the North Shore beach and the Skip in Colwyn Bay and the list goes on


Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 15, 2018, 09:08:18 PM
Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2018, 10:10:14 PM
Just as a matter of interest is it on record of who voted for the application and who voted against?     
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 15, 2018, 11:02:11 PM
Yes, Hugo.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 15, 2018, 11:09:35 PM
I've copy and pasted the following from the 'Save our Seafront' page on Facebook, which another user on here very kindly directed me towards.


Update: Seems I was beaten to it!  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 16, 2018, 01:12:01 AM
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Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!

Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 16, 2018, 08:21:18 AM
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I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!
The problem with your argument is that most people's preferred development option:

Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside

...would require far more employees (probably 200-300) than the proposed plan. Can I ask therefore, if you are also opposed to a leisure & entertainment complex being built on the site?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 16, 2018, 08:23:26 AM
Local 'democracy' can be a very depressing arena, especially when so many simply attempt to protect their own, highly vested interests. And I sometimes wonder if the sheer futility of dealing with the average CCBC representative is what deters folk from becoming involved in any sort of protest.  But that's exactly what we have a local press for, although it would appear that Trinity Mirror don't go out of their way to encourage serious, in-depth investigative journalism.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 16, 2018, 08:27:48 AM
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Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.
Mr Williams bought the Pier in May 2015. The Pavilion proposals only appeared in April 2017 (I believe Mr Waldron bought a one year option to purchase the Pavilion site a few months prior to announcing his plans).

If I bought a property with a vacant development site next to it that could seriously impinge on my business, I'd make damn sure I bought that as well.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on March 16, 2018, 10:22:13 AM
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Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!

Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.

The anti kingdom security page has over 7000 followers and nobody in authority gives a toss about that either!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 16, 2018, 10:37:47 AM
So, I  thought I'd do a little research into the current ownership situation with the Pier Pavilion site.

The site is currently owned by Quay Developments (2016) Limited, a company controlled by Mr Alan Waldron:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09947075

It purchased the site from the Nixon family on 10th May 2017.

The price paid was £1,000,000.

The purchase price was partly funded by a £400,000 loan from an individual called Mr Ronald William Porter, who currently resides in Thailand.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 16, 2018, 10:40:55 AM
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I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!
The problem with your argument is that most people's preferred development option:

Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside

...would require far more employees (probably 200-300) than the proposed plan. Can I ask therefore, if you are also opposed to a leisure & entertainment complex being built on the site?

By no means, because by my calculations, the mean benefit to the area from the added tourist attraction outweighs any burdens; in which case Llandudno should welcome with open arms anyone willing to help make that happen. This is singularly not the case with the Waldron carbuncle, which is designed solely for the benefit of a few and to enrich even fewer, whilst damaging the heart of Llandudno's image as a Victorian Seaside resort. Not only does it add nothing to the site, it detracts hugely from its surroundings, so it's like trying to compare apples and oranges, I'm afraid.

For me it all comes down to, 'whom does the development benefit'; if the answer is some version of 'locals and the local area', then I'm happy. If it happens to benefit migrant workers at the same time, more power to everyone. But if a development adds strain to locals and the local area, whilst benefiting mostly folk from out of town, as I believe this Waldron development does; well then, you already have my opinion on that.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2018, 11:23:36 AM
Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 16, 2018, 11:27:36 AM
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So it’s going ahead then?
Because the Welsh Assembly will have to rule on the legal planning criteria only.
Therefore it’s passed I believe.

That's not necessarily the case so the fight must continue.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 16, 2018, 12:01:18 PM
Hugo, I think councillors have to be there to be eligible to cast a vote and I don’t think any of them were there.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on March 16, 2018, 12:23:21 PM
That’s a very poor show from those councillors then.  &shake&
What were they doing that was more important than this issue?
I think that sums politicians up perfectly.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 16, 2018, 12:27:02 PM
It also reinforces a long held view of mine that local councils shouldn't be entrusted with anything more important than fixing potholes.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on March 16, 2018, 12:36:23 PM
They are fixing a hole
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 16, 2018, 01:05:13 PM
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Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!




Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.

My business running for 4 years only has a few hundred likes. I don't think I have proved your point at all.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 16, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
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Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.

David Rees      Llansanffraid
David Roberts  Rhos
Phil Capper      Llysfaen
Nigel Smith      Kinmel Bay
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on March 16, 2018, 01:29:56 PM
The 4 Councillors mentioned did not attend the meeting and sent apologise for not attending, it was mentioned at the start of the Meeting. As the meeting went on for longer than normal 3 of the Councillors left about 2/3rds of the way through, which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month. The Chairwoman asked that no more Councillors leave the meeting or there would not be enough councillors left to vote as they require a certain amount by law.  &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 16, 2018, 03:17:07 PM
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The 4 Councillors mentioned did not attend the meeting and sent apologise for not attending, it was mentioned at the start of the Meeting. As the meeting went on for longer than normal 3 of the Councillors left about 2/3rds of the way through, which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month. The Chairwoman asked that no more Councillors leave the meeting or there would not be enough councillors left to vote as they require a certain amount by law.  &shake&

" which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month."

Words fail me.     $angry$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
It's unbelievable,  they have turned the whole process into a farce.        &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on March 16, 2018, 05:09:44 PM
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Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.

David Rees      Llansanffraid
David Roberts  Rhos
Phil Capper      Llysfaen
Nigel Smith      Kinmel Bay

And I take it those work-shy councillors feel entitled to the pay rise awarded to themselves?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2018, 05:20:12 PM
And they don't even have to turn up to collect it.        &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on March 16, 2018, 11:03:21 PM
Another expensive mistake the Chair of the Planning Committee made was to cast her vote in favour of the application, which carried the vote in favour, whilst being instructed by the Welsh Assembly Government not to do so. This could now prove to be a very expensive hissy fit on her part, as it leaves CCBC liable for all the costs of the Local Government Ombudsman Service who have been asked to look into the lack of legality in approving application.   &shake&
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on March 17, 2018, 10:52:28 AM
I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2018, 12:10:57 PM
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I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.

I might be mistaken Bri but when I read the original application I thought that if the restaurants were not able to be sold or rented then the company reserved the right to convert them into flats.

Although this is a prime site I have not heard the term affordable property mentioned in this application although it is a requirement by CCBC.     I believe that the developer can get away with it providing they are building other affordable housing in the area but in Waldron's case the properties in Glan Conwy can in no way be described as affordable.

What does surprise me is that CCBC can grant an application without knowing if the developer has the funds to finance the development and also there appears to be no time scale to when the development should be completed
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 17, 2018, 12:46:32 PM
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I am surprised nobody has yet picked up on the possibility that they may not find tenants for the restaurant and then what happens?

They had that problem over at the Deganwy Castle Hotel development but eventually there was a simple but obvious solution.

I might be mistaken Bri but when I read the original application I thought that if the restaurants were not able to be sold or rented then the company reserved the right to convert them into flats.

Although this is a prime site I have not heard the term affordable property mentioned in this application although it is a requirement by CCBC.     I believe that the developer can get away with it providing they are building other affordable housing in the area but in Waldron's case the properties in Glan Conwy can in no way be described as affordable.

What does surprise me is that CCBC can grant an application without knowing if the developer has the funds to finance the development and also there appears to be no time scale to when the development should be completed

I have mentioned the problem of getting buyers for the restaurant spaces many times.  They are VERY big spaces so it wont be mamma and papa outfits it will need to be a big national company.  Waldron has said that he has such companies "waiting in the wings", maybe, maybe not...but I wonder if they are aware of the covenants which prevent food and alcohol from being sold on that property?  Unless Waldron is prepared to go to law and try and get those removed, which Adam will probably fight so a costly battle, then what major company in its right mind is going to by spaces where they can't operate from!!!!?  Or to have to get into a legal battle themselves to do so...would you?  In the very original plans which were put in the library late 2016 it did state that the design was such that it would be easy to adjust for any future change of use.  To my mind I don't think there has ever been any intention to develop the restaurants, they are a red-herring to help get planning permission; a nod to tourism use.  They will probably stand empty for several years then Waldron will say he can't find buyers and apply for change of use to more flats.

I don't think planning care about funding, its probably not a "planning consideration" so much isn't! Like the access to the pier issue, CCBC planning takes no notice of that.  Dave Watson did tell me (I have it in writing) that if approved they would put a condition on the build that no work could start until the access issue had been sorted out.  So that will take a legal battle, unless Adam does a deal with Waldron and at the moment I've been told quite firmly that he does not intend to do that.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2018, 02:07:14 PM
Thanks CMG for confirming what I had read previously about the restaurants and I am of the same opinion as yourself about his motives.
The Penmorfa Hotel application had similar undercurrents and CCBC  should be wise as to what these developers do to get their own way.
I'm already aware that developers don't have to prove that they have the financial ability to fund any project but it just makes a farce of the planning procedure if they haven't the financial clout to do the work that they are applying for.
One thing that CCBC should consider in the planning application is affordable housing but Waldron hasn't mentioned it and CCBC haven't raised the issue so why hasn't this been brought up at some stage?
Everyone has their price so they say, but I just hope that Adam Williams sticks to his principles and doesn't allow access onto the pier
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on March 17, 2018, 02:41:37 PM
One thing that CCBC should consider in the planning application is affordable housing

The developer can mitigate the affordable housing elements   by making a cash payment to CCBC, this should be spent on or added to other affordable housing projects. I wouldn't like to guess wether this is what happens,or not
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2018, 03:14:06 PM
That's a good point Spotty dog and i suppose that that information would be obtainable under the FOI Act    $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on March 17, 2018, 03:57:37 PM
Quote
That's a good point Spotty dog and i suppose that that information would be obtainable under the FOI Act
   
Good luck with that Hugo if KPMG couldn't find the irregularities ! I don't suppose you will get an honest reply to your FOI request,( if only I could tell what I know)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2018, 04:32:10 PM
It's already in the post Spotty dog but I'm not holding my breath for an honest answer.

I've requested two things in the past from the CCBC and the replies were questionable to say the least.     
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on March 18, 2018, 02:13:34 PM
I have had a look on the Planning Application portal for the Affordable Housing Pro Forma and no luck. I then had a look to see if there was any mention of it in the Design & Access Statement and have been surprised as to what it has turned up, it states:-
' On-site provision of Affordable Housing is incompatible with the market type and context of the apartments being provided. The application is for the re-development of a brown field site with a significant acquisition cost, requires a high standard of design/materials, is difficult/expensive to develop and has scale/massing and servicing constraints. These influences impact upon the propensity to provide affordable housing. Any liability to make a commuted sum payment is affected by the above when modelled against expected returns. Provisional data and dialogue indicated limited potential for commuted sum payment and a confidential affordable housing Pro Forma is submitted with the planning application with a supporting (independent) costing evaluation'.
Hugo, it looks as if you won't get your answer as the AH Pro Forma is CONFIDENTIAL for some reason and from what else has been stated it is highly unlikely any affordable housing commuted sum will be payable. :(

It is mentioned again in another area of the application and states:- 'A confidential Viability Assessment Pro Forma is submitted with the application. The results indicate that the scheme is unlikely to fall eligible for AH payment. Focus has been upon securing the redevelopment of a problematic brownfield site in a sensitive area.'
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 18, 2018, 02:22:52 PM
I really wish they'd use plain English, but the tone seems to be 'Let's hope we can get summat built-doesn't matter what, really...'
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 18, 2018, 03:05:07 PM
Meleri,  thank you very much for providing that information, luckily I haven't put a stamp on the envelope and posted it because in view of this information my request would be pointless
Despite the fancy rhetoric I can fully understand what has been written and how it affects both parties in this application.  To put it in layman's terms Waldron is trying to pull a fast one and CCBC is culpable in allowing it.
I wonder if he used the same tactics in the development at Glan Conwy as the properties there could in no way be classified as affordable.
I spoke to a Councillor weeks before the meeting and was told that many other Councillors were not happy with the proposed building but if it met all the planning regulations they may have to pass it.
That person I spoke to unfortunately voted for the proposal but the whole thing is a farce as they know that if it is passed Waldron can then make further applications to increase the number of apartments on the site.     They don't seem to have learnt from past mistakes.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on March 18, 2018, 05:15:04 PM
I wonder how much the flats will cost?  He has paid £1m for the site and said it will cost £18m to develop (this info is in the press).  What can he charge for the restaurant spaces? Well John L-R told me Waldron had offered one of those spaces to the museum for £1m. Let's assume Waldron was being generous cos it was the museum🤔😳 and that he might ask 1.5 or even £2m of a restaurant chain. So let's guess he could get £4m from the restaurant sales (if they do ever happen).  So that's £15m stil to recoup and that's before profit. 48 flats. Some 1 bed, some 2bed and a few 3bed. Presumably those on the front with sunshine and the beautiful view will cost more than the ones at the back which will be dark all day and have no view. Goodness knows how it will be worked out, beyond me, but just dividing 15m by 48 = 312,500 Just to make his money back...I'm sure he will want a big profit. Maybe a one bed flat at the back could  start at 200k, 1 bed flats in town seem to be around the 90-120k average....who locally will buy a poky (have you looked at the plans?), dark flat with no view and overlooked by the houses on North Parade which are so close you will be able to have a chat with the neighbours from your balcony? Is it just me or is this unappealing and over priced?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: spotty dog on March 18, 2018, 06:51:13 PM
 On-site provision of Affordable Housing is incompatible with the market type and context of the apartments being provided. The application is for the re-development of a brown field site with a significant acquisition cost, requires a high standard of design/materials, is difficult/expensive to develop and has scale/massing and servicing constraints. These influences impact upon the propensity to provide affordable housing. Any liability to make a commuted sum payment is affected by the above when modelled against expected returns. Provisional data and dialogue indicated limited potential for commuted sum payment and a confidential affordable housing Pro Forma is submitted with

Bit early for fairy tales
Trouble is is it cost effective for CCBC to cost the project out to prove them wrong.Local authority building costs are normally 50%higher than private developers so to them it looks kosher

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 18, 2018, 07:08:03 PM
His original build cost, was £15m. now £18m  (makes me think the £10m suggested for the Tudno is well short of the actual cost), I also suspect his flats will be in the region of £350,000 plus.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bosun on March 19, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
Interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001 (https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 19, 2018, 02:11:15 PM
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Interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001 (https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001)

The whole page is quite interesting. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2018, 03:15:28 PM
No wonder these developers are giving CCBC the runaround
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 19, 2018, 06:23:40 PM
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Interesting.

https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001 (https://www.facebook.com/SaveLlandudnoSeafront/posts/2008305139437001)

Raises far more questions than it answers. Not a shred of evidence for most of the claims / insinuations. Is it possible to find out who held the land since the original site burned down, and at what point it passed to Waldron? If the pier owner did indeed try to obtain the land, it makes a mockery of all the claims that the flats should go ahead because no one else wanted to do anything with the site.

But I really don't feel any more illuminated after reading that post, than before I began.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 19, 2018, 06:41:49 PM
From what I understand tracing land owners in Wales can be notoriously difficult.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 20, 2018, 11:04:24 AM
The Pavilion site has been registered with the Land Registry for many years and it is easy for anyone willing to spend £3 to access the information re the current owner:
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry)

The Facebook post mentioned above contains a few errors, but is substantially correct. A little bit more background information about the ownership in the 1980s and 90s is reproduced below:

*****

On the 6th December 1983, the Llandudno Pier Company (aka Entam leisure Ltd, a division of First Leisure Corporation) sold the pavilion for £10,000 to Llandudno Pavilion Ltd, a sister company of Uttoxeter Investments Ltd, a leisure company run by Anthony Bagshaw that already operated the Llandudno Cabin Lift. They closed the Theatre at the end of the 1984 Summer Season.

A few months before the theatre closed, a new attraction opened in the basement. The huge basement area had been home over the years to a small amusement arcade called Tusons and, later, a ghost train ride and vintage car 'round the world' ride. These were all cleared out to make way for the Llandudno Dungeon, a walk through horror waxworks exhibition, featuring scenes from the more gruesome aspects of human history, all built at a cost of over £100,000. This novel attraction proved successful for a few years but closed at the end of 1990, when the entire exhibition was sold and shipped to France.

January 1992 saw ownership of the building pass to the Worcester based Launchsign Ltd, which announced their intention to completely restore the building. This £4million plan, billed as a 'Victorian Wonderland' and devised by L&R Leisure PLC/Lingard Styles, would have seen the Basement area used for a 'Victorian Wonderland' themed attraction, the Ground Floor used for a Covent Garden style indoor market and the First Floor used for a themed restaurant (with outdoor seating on the balcony) and retail/entertainment units. Despite the grandiose plans, no effort was made to repair or even secure the theatre building, which became increasingly vandalised and a meeting place for local youths. The process of decay accelerated, until the almost inevitable arson attack on 13th February 1994 destroyed the main theatre building.

1st October 1999 saw ownership pass once again to an individual called David Taylor, described as a 'Market Operator' from Worcester. Nothing then happened for many years until the site was sold on the 24th September 2015 for £850,000 and the new owners were Maurice & Donna Nixon. Maurice Nixon is a Market Operator, a very successful businessman, whos runs Portobello and Spitalfields Markets in London. His Companies are nearly all registered to an address in Worcester, 15 Castle Street. Sounds familiar? 15 Castle Street is where the previous owner of the Pavilion site, David Taylor, was based. Going back even further, the company that was planning to convert the Pavilion into an Indoor Market was called Launchsign Ltd, based in Worcester.

The site was then sold again to Quay Developments (2016) Ltd on 10th May 2017, The price paid was £1,000,000.

******

Regarding Mr Williams' plans for an entertainment venue on the site, I am genuinely surprised that the plans have not been made public. How does he expect to get any support for such a scheme if the general public does not have any information about it?


Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 20, 2018, 12:18:25 PM
Out of interest, where are Quay Developments (2016) Ltd based - or is that here?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on March 20, 2018, 12:25:01 PM
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Out of interest, where are Quay Developments (2016) Ltd based - or is that here?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09947075
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on March 20, 2018, 03:50:33 PM
Ta, Steve.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 20, 2018, 04:17:03 PM
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The Pavilion site has been registered with the Land Registry for many years and it is easy for anyone willing to spend £3 to access the information re the current owner:
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry (https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/land-registry)

******

Regarding Mr Williams' plans for an entertainment venue on the site, I am genuinely surprised that the plans have not been made public. How does he expect to get any support for such a scheme if the general public does not have any information about it?

Thanks for that info, very informative. I'm sceptical of any claims that are made on hearsay whether they align with my personal views, or not. The argument could be made however that there would be little point investing the time and money to plan for such a development (from the perspective of the pier owner), if his initial enquiries about purchasing the land were rebuffed. Only he knows the answer to that, or how serious his plans for the site are, or were. The fact that this site has never seemingly been on the open market for all this time does however, weaken arguments that no one wanted to do anything with it (so apartments are the only option). I consider this to be a red-herring, just like the jobs argument.

I would also note that the pier owner and local entrepreneur Adam Williams' company Tir Prince Raceway Limited seems to have a successful history of offering up leisure-orientated sites around the area, although I don't claim to be an expert, or even particularly well-informed on the subject. (I just did some quick Google searching if you want to know the truth).
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Mr Tunnock on March 20, 2018, 09:16:45 PM
Mr Waldron is a director of 19 current or past companies, doesn't mean much, a matter for him I feel.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 21, 2018, 08:19:23 AM
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The fact that this site has never seemingly been on the open market for all this time does however, weaken arguments that no one wanted to do anything with it (so apartments are the only option). I consider this to be a red-herring, just like the jobs argument.
Just because the site wasn't on the open market doesn't mean it wasn't for sale. I was told several years ago that the site was available for anyone who was willing to pay £1m. Any decent property developer with a serious offer could have got the deal done. Mr Waldron doesn't have any super powers, as far as I'm aware!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Mr Tunnock on March 21, 2018, 09:57:35 AM
Dave, I think you have summed it all up and your previous comments regarding Mr Williams not divulging his plans for the site certainly have not helped his cause.
Surely if the Pavilion were ever rebuilt he would in any case have to move the kiosks that appeared in front of the old Pavilion in any case?
Mr Waldron is no fool and will have sorted his front access out and this is all bluster saying he won't move his kiosks , Mr Williams will have already been told of the access issues by his own solicitor when purchasing the pier.
I have bought property that was never on the open market, nothing sinister just a question of knowing what one is doing. 
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 21, 2018, 01:11:19 PM
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The fact that this site has never seemingly been on the open market for all this time does however, weaken arguments that no one wanted to do anything with it (so apartments are the only option). I consider this to be a red-herring, just like the jobs argument.
Just because the site wasn't on the open market doesn't mean it wasn't for sale. I was told several years ago that the site was available for anyone who was willing to pay £1m. Any decent property developer with a serious offer could have got the deal done. Mr Waldron doesn't have any super powers, as far as I'm aware!

Odd then, how securing such a prime site in one of Britain's foremost seaside resorts should only attract the interest of one man over all that time when developers have been fighting tooth and nail to acquire lesser sites.

Very odd.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 21, 2018, 03:03:35 PM
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The fact that this site has never seemingly been on the open market for all this time does however, weaken arguments that no one wanted to do anything with it (so apartments are the only option). I consider this to be a red-herring, just like the jobs argument.
Just because the site wasn't on the open market doesn't mean it wasn't for sale. I was told several years ago that the site was available for anyone who was willing to pay £1m. Any decent property developer with a serious offer could have got the deal done. Mr Waldron doesn't have any super powers, as far as I'm aware!

Odd then, how securing such a prime site in one of Britain's foremost seaside resorts should only attract the interest of one man over all that time when developers have been fighting tooth and nail to acquire lesser sites.

Very odd.
Not as odd as you seemingly believing that the previous owners left the site derelict for 24 years just so they could sell it to Mr Waldron!  :o

It certainly is a prime site, but it is also a problematic one. The topography of the site is difficult, access arrangements are not straightforward, the fact the site is still classified as a Listed Building - these are all good reasons why developers have looked at the site and then decided to tackle easier schemes elsewhere. Both ABC and CCBC have considered a CPO in the past but the lack of a suitable developer to flip the site on to has meant the idea was always ruled out.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on March 21, 2018, 05:05:12 PM

Quote
Not as odd as you seemingly believing that the previous owners left the site derelict for 24 years just so they could sell it to Mr Waldron!  :o

It certainly is a prime site, but it is also a problematic one. The topography of the site is difficult, access arrangements are not straightforward, the fact the site is still classified as a Listed Building - these are all good reasons why developers have looked at the site and then decided to tackle easier schemes elsewhere. Both ABC and CCBC have considered a CPO in the past but the lack of a suitable developer to flip the site on to has meant the idea was always ruled out.

And yet Waldron seems to find a way to grease the wheels that others cannot reach.

I realise I'll never be privy to even a fraction of what goes on behind these scenes on one of these developments, but I don't trust the people involved further than I could throw Waldron's inappropriate excrescence.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on March 21, 2018, 05:29:16 PM
It's all very well saying that whatever is built should be for leisure and entertainment but can anyone suggest what should fill the hole?
To date I can't recall a single suggestion.
If it was financially viable I'm sure someone would have jumped at the opportunity a long time ago.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on March 22, 2018, 09:18:08 AM
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It's all very well saying that whatever is built should be for leisure and entertainment but can anyone suggest what should fill the hole?
To date I can't recall a single suggestion.
If it was financially viable I'm sure someone would have jumped at the opportunity a long time ago.
Exactly.  $good$
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2018, 10:56:35 AM
I notice that the Save Our Seafront Facebook page has disappeared altogether.
The fight is not over is it?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on April 08, 2018, 07:49:09 PM
Well no one can come up with an alternative use so I guess unless it's decided a hole is a better alternative then apartments are the only option.Personally I wouldn't want to buy one in that particular location but I guess they will get snapped up at whatever huge price they are asking.
I have noticed recently that whenever I'm listening to the radio phone-ins at weekends and travellers are asked where they are going a surprisingly large proportion are heading to Wales, North Wales in particular. More mentions now than seem to be heading to the Lake District. It just confirms that we have so much to offer todays holiday makers but it's nothing to do with in town entertainment, it's all about the great outdoors and North Wales hasn't half picked up it's game there in recent years. Yes, people will come to stay in Llandudno as it has hotels and restaurants but the idea of turning North Shore back in to a sandy beach just isn't worth considering and neither is building a theme park, they are folding up all over the UK so it's time for a reality check on what Llandudno really needs.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on April 08, 2018, 09:21:15 PM
Nothing you just said supports the argument for residential flats in an non Victorian style building on the seafront.

Why is Llandudno a more popular a destination than Rhyl, or Colwyn Bay do you think?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on April 08, 2018, 10:22:43 PM
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Nothing you just said supports the argument for residential flats in an non Victorian style building on the seafront.

Why is Llandudno a more popular a destination than Rhyl, or Colwyn Bay do you think?

I didn't say I was supporting an ugly building project but I don't see a viable alternative to apartments if the site is to be developed and most people probably don't care what use the site is put to. One thing is certain though, the apartments will be expensive.

In actual fact Colwyn Bay is trying to improve their profile by allowing the development of "upmarket" residential developments on the seafront. Neither of those places you compare ever had that many hotels in comparison to Llandudno and their downfall was for different reasons.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on April 09, 2018, 10:40:47 PM
So..., what did happen to the SOS Facebook page?
Seems odd timing for it to disappear?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on April 10, 2018, 09:16:20 PM
Seems strange why opposition groups keep disappearing...
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on April 11, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
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Seems strange why opposition groups keep disappearing...

What is this? Russia?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on April 23, 2018, 08:32:44 AM
I'm hearing whisperings..... 8)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on April 23, 2018, 12:53:25 PM
Me too,  rumblings from interested parties, that that the WA have waived objections aside.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: llandudnotrust on April 26, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
You are correct Fester
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on April 26, 2018, 04:40:38 PM
I haven’t seen any official announcement though?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on April 26, 2018, 04:42:45 PM
Controversial plans for Llandudno’s Pier Pavilion look set to be given the green light.

The Welsh Government have decided not to call in the controversial plans to develop the site, clearing the way for developer Alan Waldron to realise their plans.

A letter by Welsh Government's head of planning decisions, Mrs T Davies, on behalf of the cabinet secretary for energy, planning and rural affairs revealed the Welsh Government’s decision not to intervene claiming most of the issues raised had either been addressed or were matters that were "local in nature" and could be resolved within the county.


Mrs Davies, in the letter, said: "The issues arising from the development have been assessed against natonal and local planning policies in an appropriate manner. They are not considered to have and wide effects and, while the application has raised a number of local objections, this can not be considered to be substantial controversy beyond the immediate locality.

"The proposal does not adversely impact on sites of scientific, nature conservation or historic interest, or area of landscape importance and it does not raise issues of national security or novel planning issues.

"I do not consider the issue as more than local importance and the application should not be called in for determination by the Welsh Ministers. It is now for your authority to determine the application."

Conwy County Borough Council planning committee granted conditional planning permission in March, subject to the Welsh Government removing the direction. So now it has been removed the plans must now pass a number of minor planning hurdles before being given the final go ahead.

The £18 million proposed plans would see the construction of 48 high-quality apartments, two restaurants and an underground car park and is expected to create more than 100 jobs.  ref Pioneer

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/16187027.Pier_Pavilion_plans_to_move_ahead_after_Welsh_Government_decide_not_to_intervene/ (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/16187027.Pier_Pavilion_plans_to_move_ahead_after_Welsh_Government_decide_not_to_intervene/)
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: llandudnotrust on April 26, 2018, 11:10:42 PM
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I haven’t seen any official announcement though?
I have
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: DaveR on April 27, 2018, 09:01:47 AM
The eventual outcome was never really in any doubt. Rightly or wrongly, the planning system in its current form enables any Developer whose plans 'tick all the required boxes' to get permission for their project.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 27, 2018, 11:34:27 AM
Maybe but isn’t getting access to build the development now going to be a major problem?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on April 27, 2018, 11:52:36 AM
No doubt the saga will drag on for ages yet before the inevitable happens. At least you feel that the developer is keen to get things moving and the site developed rather than leaving an eyesore for many more years to come.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on April 27, 2018, 01:42:07 PM
I took down SOS because it has no further function.  Nothing I or any other member of the public says is now going to change this - the decision is made.  So there is no use for a campaign against it!  The only person who can stop this now is Adam Williams if he is prepared to fight a legal battle to protect the pier.  The council said there would be a condition on the planning consent to say no building work could start until the issue of right (or not) of access to the pier was sorted out. I hope they keep their word on that (I'm not holding my breath!!)
Williams reckons there is only a small area by the set of stairs which still exists at the end by The Grand which has right of access, Waldron reckons he has full access for the whole of the frontage (of Benidorm Tower) where the old ironwork is...CCBC said that was a planning consideration along with the covenants that the pier land holds saying no food or alcohol can be sold from the pavilion land (restaurants?).  So its all down to Adam Williams - if he is prepared for a costly legal battle. Hurry up and wait for the answer to that one!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on April 27, 2018, 03:18:28 PM
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No doubt the saga will drag on for ages yet before the inevitable happens. At least you feel that the developer is keen to get things moving and the site developed rather than leaving an eyesore for many more years to come.

It appears that local issues have no importance when it comes to planning matters so it is giving the developers the green light to do whatever they want to do.
As for the eyesore aspect then once the building has been built we will be stuck with a more permanent eyesore.    I just hope that Adam Williams can afford to stick to his word about access.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Dave on April 27, 2018, 05:18:48 PM
Surely it's not that complicated, the answer must be in the deeds? If there is no access it might well be available at a price though, most things are.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: philfishlaw on May 21, 2018, 12:13:43 AM
Hi everybody, I have joined this site so that I can find out about any concerns people may have. Perhaps I should explain, I am Phil Capper a Councillor on CCBC and I have noted comments about the development by the pier in Llandudno. Various posts have been made commenting on some councillors not having voted. This is the situation, in order to vote you must be at the meeting but when you are elected to the council you are appointed to various bodies and committees, some of these clash and you give your apologies for the meeting that you cannot attend. This was the case with regards to this development, you cant be in two places at the same time. I feel that it is important that the workings of the council are explained as they can be a bit strange ( they certainly were to me before I became a councillor). I know that councillors want to do the best for the community in which they live and I am happy to Discus any issues on this forum or through my council contact details.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Ian on May 21, 2018, 08:06:53 AM
Good to have you here, Phil;  few councillors are prepared to stick their heads above the parapet.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: TELL on May 21, 2018, 09:19:10 AM
Welcome Phil,

You may be in for an interesting ride.

Can you let me know what other business was more important for our Councillors than the future of one of the most iconic locations in Llandudno?

Good luck with your endeavours, it is good to know that at least one councillor is interested in what the people that they represent actually think.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: SteveH on May 21, 2018, 10:34:25 AM
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Welcome Phil,
You may be in for an interesting ride.

Can you let me know what other business was more important for our Councillors than the future of one of the most iconic locations in Llandudno?

Good luck with your endeavours, it is good to know that at least one councillor is interested in what the people that they represent actually think.

Phil, Thank you for joining in, I would also like to hear the answer to TELL's question.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on May 21, 2018, 12:41:28 PM
That's a good point Steve and I would also be interested to know what was more important than a planning application that would have a permanent affect on Llandudno
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 21, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Concerns now...well where to start!  I have written to the Highways department as I would like to know how the build is to be managed...they have not replied yet (3 weeks ago). 
My concerns are that given that Mr Waldron has nowhere on the actual land he owns to house his portacabins (5 were on the Lifeboat Station build and 4 behind St Tudno Hotel), his plant and heavy machinery, his tons and tons of building supplies and has nowhere to park dozens of contractor vehicles where are these going to be situated.  I can only assume on the road next to the site?  This will most likely entail having to close off half the road to accommodate this site annexe.  So at the Church Walks roundabout and by the Grand Hotel there will need to be traffic lights to control the flow of traffic.  This will mean no parking anywhere along that stretch of North Parade.  How will us hoteliers get our weekly deliveries as vehicles will not be allowed to stop in the middle of a traffic light area?  How will our refuse be collected...again the lorries cant stop and hold up traffic?  Where will the dozens of contractor vehicles park?  How will deliveries be controlled?  How will the traffic jams this will create at busy times be mitigated?

On a different tack I also asked the Highways department to explain how resurfacing Maelgwyn car park will mitigate for a shortfall of 195 spaces needed for the commercial element of the building?  Where will the 12-15 spaces lost on North Parade outside the building be relocated.  The Highways department have already stated (in a written briefing to councillors on the planning committee last December) that these spaces will be relocated elsewhere on North Parade...there is NO WHERE else on North Parade for any extra spaces. 
Dave Watson in the planning department told me, in writing, some time ago that conditions would be put on the planning permission, one being that no building work can start until the issue of access to the pier is sorted out.  I assume that will be a legal battle between Waldron and Adam Williams.  I hope that condition IS applied to the permission and not conveniently ignored!
I am in contact with my two local councillors about these issues.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 21, 2018, 06:02:38 PM
We had a wander last week and noticed there are signs along the grass verge border between the pier gates and the Grand Hotel stating that land belongs to the pier.

All the kiosks on the pier bordering the development site are occupied for the season and the second entrance by the angling shop has restricted pedestrian access because of ongoing pier repairs.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Blongb on May 21, 2018, 08:43:35 PM
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We had a wander last week and noticed there are signs along the grass verge border between the pier gates and the Grand Hotel stating that land belongs to the pier.

The Pier's boundary is defined by the Blue Victorian Railings Bri, up to the gate that gives access into the Pier Pavilion Site. The Grass strip and Pavement is owned by Mostyn Estates but leased to CCBC as part of the Promenade and there should be absolutely no Parking there as it's now covered by new By-Laws which should be policed by the Beach Wardens but they have been given no authority to issue tickets by the Conwy Harbour Master, who is in overall control.  :-\
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: philfishlaw on May 21, 2018, 10:07:07 PM
Hi All, Thanks for the welcome, I am sure it will be " interesting " at times but you know what they say about interesting times. Steveh, Hugo and TELL asked what the other meeting was. In my case I was at the Snowdonia nation park planing meeting (I was appointed to represent CCBC)   which over ran and then trafic issues returning from Tan y bwlch. It was my intention to try to attend both meetings but circumstanc interviend
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on May 22, 2018, 01:04:58 PM
Thanks philfishlaw for explaining the situation for us.  I've looked at the minutes of the meetings for the Snowdonia National Park Planning committee and can see that three people have been elected to represent the Conwy County Borough Council and note from those minutes that Chris Hughes was not present at the meeting on the 7th March 2018 and he sent his apologies.

In his absence CCBC was represented by two people namely yourself and Ifor Glyn Lloyd so if it could be done then, couldn't it be done for an extremely important local issue like the Pier Pavilion and apologies could then be made to the Snowdonia National Park on your behalf because although the Snowdonia meeting started at 10.00 am they are notorious for going over time and there is also the distance involved between Maentwrog and Bodlondeb
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: philfishlaw on May 22, 2018, 09:49:11 PM
Hi Hugo,
Yes I could have offered my apologies for Snowdonia national park but I expected to get back for the  conwy meeting, More fool me! Also to be quite honest I did not expect the vote to be that close. We all learn from experience for which I can only apologise. This is one of the reasons that I have joined this site, to get the views of other people.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on May 22, 2018, 10:39:52 PM
Thanks  very much philfishlaw for your honest reply which is very much appreciated.   I had spoken to an experienced planning officer prior to the meeting and he did voice that some members were not happy with the proposed building but their hands may be tied by the planning regulations but I was still surprised to see that he had voted in favour of the proposed application
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: TELL on May 23, 2018, 09:49:18 AM
Good Morning Phil, which way would you have voted on the Pier Pavilion Apllication if you had been able to get to the meeting in time?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: CMG on May 24, 2018, 01:21:29 PM
I ran into Tom (used to own The Elm Tree Hotel) last night.  He know Waldron (slightly) bumps into him sometimes drinking in Snooze.  He said he had seen him recently and asked when building work would start.  Waldron replied that he did not know as he would be selling it on to a builder!!!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 24, 2018, 03:37:42 PM
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The Pier's boundary is defined by the Blue Victorian Railings Bri, up to the gate that gives access into the Pier Pavilion Site. The Grass strip and Pavement is owned by Mostyn Estates.

Thank you, Blongb, for the clarification.

Reading those signs again today, it is rather confusing.

Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site.
Post by: norman08 on May 24, 2018, 10:43:04 PM
When the pier company sold the pavilion in 1983 was it the pavilion alone or the land it stood on aswell 🤔
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 25, 2018, 07:09:26 AM
That sign says a fine of £100, I thought that only the government or councils could issue fines?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: OrmeMac on May 25, 2018, 10:54:43 AM
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That sign says a fine of £100, I thought that only the government or councils could issue fines?

Not if it is private land surely?
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on May 25, 2018, 02:40:43 PM
Councillor Phil, I'm pleased to see that as a member of CCBC and The Planning Committee you are seeking views from Members of The Three Towns Forum on our opinions regarding Llandudno's Pier Pavilion Site application.
Reading though the thoughts of other members I came across Hugo's comment on the Snowdonia National Park's meeting you attended on 7th March 2018 and your comment on how you regretfully couldn't make the Planning Committee meeting that day as the SNP meeting ran over time.
The fact is I attended the Planning Committee Meeting where the Pier Pavilion application was heard and I can remember Councillor Ivor Lloyd (who also represents CCBC on the SNP Planning & Access Committee) being present and voting on it, but the date of the Planning Committee Meeting was 14th March.
During this meeting as it ran late and ended 5.30pm, three Councillors :-Trevor Stott, Austin Roberts & Chris Cater left before the end and the Chairperson had to ask the remaining Councillors not to leave until the end of the meeting as there wouldn't legally be enough Councillors to vote. Which brings me to my point, the Planning Committee Members are only expected to attend 12 meeting a year, sometimes barely lasting an hour or two occasionally longer, as it did in March, surely the least they can do is stay until the end. The more members the livelier the debate and every application stands on it's own merit and is important to not only the applicant but the people whose lives can change drastically by some of these applications. You as Councillors have the voice to represent both sides and should think seriously if you have the time to honestly give to these meetings, if not then step down. One young Councillor at the CCBC AGM stated that he would love the challenge of a position, so please could you convey this to other members and share out the work load so these young people can gain experience. Thank you for this opportunity to give you my opinion.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2018, 04:47:55 PM
Meleri, that was very well put and you are obviously conversant with planning procedures unlike most of us.   I'm one of the those people that don't understand the procedure and would appreciate it if you could just clarify some things:-

a)  Are you referring to the meeting when the votes at the end were tied and the Chairperson cast her vote in favour of the application?

b)  If that is the case then Cllr Trefor Stott for instance, left the meeting before the end and presumably the vote had been held by then because he voted in favour of the application

c)  Are you saying that the CCBC planning meeting for the Pier Pavillion application was not on the same day as the Snowdonia meeting?
The date of the 7th March that I mentioned was just to highlight the fact that if the CCBC could be represented by two members then, then two people could be represented again if their attendance was required by a more important local issue like the Pier Pavillion
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on May 25, 2018, 06:02:42 PM
Hugo, I did look up the date and minutes of the SNP meeting after seeing what you had written and Councillor's Ivor Lloyd Betws yn Rhos and Phil Caper Llysfaen attended with apologise from Councillor Chris Hughes (who no longer holds that post it's now Councillor Wyn Ellis Jones, Llanrwst)) and the meeting was on the 7th March. What puzzled me was I knew Councillor Ivor Lloyd was at the CCBC Planning Meeting at Bodlondeb, when the Pier Pavilion site application was being discussed. I double checked the date for that meeting and it was March 14th. Councillor Phil could have very well been at another meeting on that day though.

Answers to your question:-
a) Yes.

b) No. The three Councillors did all vote on the Pier Pavilion site application, but left before all the other application had been heard that day and I feel strongly that they should have stayed until the whole meeting had finished at 5.30pm and debated and voted as such. How hard can it be to arrange that 12 times a year you attend the Planning Meetings if you are a Member of the Planning Committee, barring in mind of course, ill health.

c) Yes. As Above
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2018, 10:17:00 PM
Thanks very much Meleri, it is appreciated
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: TELL on May 30, 2018, 11:11:00 PM
I do hope that we haven't scared Philfishlaw away already!
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Meleri on May 31, 2018, 01:36:47 PM
Oh Dear! my comments weren't meant to offend in any way  :( Councillor Phil you did ask for the "views of other people" so in all honesty I gave mine. The only SNP and CCBC Planning Committee meetings on the same day was 11th April and both you and Councillor Ifor were late arriving, about half way through, so I can see where you got muddled  :-\
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: philfishlaw on June 01, 2018, 10:42:38 PM
Hi all , not scared away, just "away" for a few days. Yes its true that there are so many meetings that some times its hard to keep up. I may have been at the Community health council (of which I am chairman for Conwy)
With regard to how I would have voted had I been able to get to the meeting. When you receive instruction on planing you are told that you must not express an opinion until you have heard all the evidence. As I have not heard all the evidence I cannot say how I would have voted, however I would say that in my view and opinion the proposed development lacked architecturally merit and was aesthetically unappealing.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: TELL on June 02, 2018, 08:58:10 AM
It's good to hear from you Phil. It's also a relief to hear that you are sceptical of the current plans. The development being built in keeping with our beautiful town is very important to a lot of people, both local, and visitors. It does sometimes feel as if our elected representatives don't understand how a bad decision could detrimentally affect the Victorian charisma of Llandudno.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: norman08 on June 02, 2018, 10:07:54 AM
I think Our councilors should get out more walk/ sit on the prom listen to what visitors say ,we as locals can take Our lovely town for granted sometimes but when you see families from the cities comming to sample what we have only yesterday I heard a few people come onto the prom and say about the curve in the bay how unspoilt etc , you chat to them and mention what is planned for the site and All of them gasp that would spoil the area , we all agree that something needs to be there but it has to fit in , I could Write a book about chatting to visitors ( school parties aswell ) , as we say councilors are Our mouth piece not as a lot of them think for themselves .
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2018, 01:30:56 PM
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I think Our councilors should get out more walk/ sit on the prom listen to what visitors say ,we as locals can take Our lovely town for granted sometimes but when you see families from the cities comming to sample what we have only yesterday I heard a few people come onto the prom and say about the curve in the bay how unspoilt etc , you chat to them and mention what is planned for the site and All of them gasp that would spoil the area , we all agree that something needs to be there but it has to fit in , I could Write a book about chatting to visitors ( school parties aswell ) , as we say councilors are Our mouth piece not as a lot of them think for themselves .

You want to stop talking to school parties Norm, it can get you into all kinds of trouble these days.  ;D :D
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: Edith Perry on June 06, 2018, 07:06:56 PM
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No doubt the saga will drag on for ages yet before the inevitable happens. At least you feel that the developer is keen to get things moving and the site developed rather than leaving an eyesore for many more years to come.

It appears that local issues have no importance when it comes to planning matters so it is giving the developers the green light to do whatever they want to do.
As for the eyesore aspect then once the building has been built we will be stuck with a more permanent eyesore.    I just hope that Adam Williams can afford to stick to his word about access.

Instead of a 2D 'eyesore' visible from only a few hundred metres in selected positions, we will have a 3D eyesore visible from 20 miles.

Sound logic there by whoever cooked that one up.
Title: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
Post by: born2run on August 30, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
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As I've said before, the problem is that there has never been another plan put forward for the site, even though developers have had 20+ years in order to acquire the site and submit plans...they chose not to do so.

Conwy Council, and its predecessor authority, have had 30+ years to acquire the Pavilion/site under a Compulsory Purchase Order...but chose not to do so.

The Pier Owner had the same ability to acquire the Pavilion site that Mr Waldron had...but chose not to do so.

Looking at it pragmatically, the proposed Pavilion development will generate £78k/year in additional Council Tax from the apartments (52 x £1500) and create 100 permanent jobs....the present hole in the ground generates nothing for the town.

I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have