Three Towns Forum
The Local => Times Past => Topic started by: Hugo on May 17, 2011, 12:19:05 pm
-
I saw these cuttings from the local press when I called at the Conwy Archives yesterday. I found them interesting as I had never seen them before.
-
V. Interesting Hugo-- hadn't seen the first one before-- fancy living in a cave with all those children !
-
I went past the cave when I had a walk around the Orme on Friday, the remains of it are behind the garage door in St Petrocks.
What a wonderful view they would have had then, it would have nearly compensated for all those Westerlies that would have blown down the Straits!
-
Nice one Hugo - Mike Cox will be pleased! :)
Miriam Jones also ran the Gogarth Refreshment Room from her property.
-
Note the horse-shoe hung upside-down above the door.
The horseshoe is considered very lucky and used to be hung in many homes to protect and attract good fortune for the family residing inside. As with many superstitions, there are contradictions to be found with the beliefs associated with the horseshoe. For instance, many believe that to hang it with the ends pointing upwards is good luck as it acts as a storage container of sorts for any good luck that happens to be floating by, whereas to hang it with the ends pointing down, is bad luck as all the good luck will fall out. Others believe that no matter which way you hang the horseshoe, good luck will come. According to this superstition, the ends-pointing-down display simply means that the good luck is able to flow out and surround the home. If the horseshoe is hung over a doorway, ends up will catch good luck and ends down will let the good luck spill over the door and stop evil from entering. Perhaps a combination of the two was used so that after a few days, when the horseshoe was filled with good luck, it would then need to be emptied so that residents could benefit from that luck and the process would be repeated until the end of time.
-
V. Interesting Hugo-- hadn't seen the first one before-- fancy living in a cave with all those children !
Quote from the newspaper article:
The cave sheltered her 14 natural children and others that Miriam adopted.
-
I went past the cave when I had a walk around the Orme on Friday, the remains of it are behind the garage door in St Petrocks.
What a wonderful view they would have had then, it would have nearly compensated for all those Westerlies that would have blown down the Straits!
The newspaper article states:
The old cave site no longer exists. It was destroyed when Marine Drive was built. ???
-
I always wondered what the cave was like inside. I always thought of the interior to be very spartan with everyone huddled together for warmth.
I found this excerpt interesting:
Miriam's cave was a haven, "it was lavish" says Apra. "It was a big long cave, a house within a cave". There were tapestries on the wall and furniture. An old stove sat in the corner, but much of the cooking and washing was done outside.
There was a big open area directly outside the cave, Apra tells me, "kids would be sitting helping to make the fishing nets and there would always be geese running around and a piglet to be fattened up.
-
The cave is still there but not visible from the road and I tried peeping through the garage door letterbox but you can't see anything!
These two photos were taken of the ruins of her old cottage Gogarth Tea Rooms, the steps are overgrown now but still visible.
-
Good article, Hugo, thanks for posting. $good$
-
Thanks for the explanation Hugo. I remember now, those photo's you took near St Petrocks. :)
-
$thanx$ for posting $good$
-
One of the most famous of the Jones clan was Edward Goodey Jones, better known as Ted-yr-Ogof
His memorial can be seen on Llandudno's promenade near the jetty.
-
Hey. Some attribution to Davy Stallard who originally found where the cave behind St Petrocks was and took the original photos. My family too. With Alun Baines now of New Zealand - and largely thanks to him - I have a full Jones family tree. Dunno who 'Apra' is; she seems an interloper cashing in on the Miriam's legend. Davy and I did try to contact her to find out who she is when she published her article in the NWW but without success and without response.
-
Dunno who 'Apra' is; she seems an interloper cashing in on the Miriam's legend. Davy and I did try to contact her to find out who she is when she published her article in the NWW but without success and without response.
According to the above 2002 article, Apra - Amy Patricia Roberts, is Miriam's Great, Great Grandaughter.
A professional writer, who also runs her own entertainment company - Apra Entertainments.
Additionally, she performs fire breathing, fire eating, pyrotechnics, magician-ship, and singing & dancing.
However, I can't seem to find any trace of her on the world wide web. ???
-
Hey. Some attribution to Davy Stallard who originally found where the cave behind St Petrocks was and took the original photos. My family too. With Alun Baines now of New Zealand - and largely thanks to him - I have a full Jones family tree. Dunno who 'Apra' is; she seems an interloper cashing in on the Miriam's legend. Davy and I did try to contact her to find out who she is when she published her article in the NWW but without success and without response.
A Stallard has a mention in Ivor Wynne Jone's book, Llandudno Queen of Welsh resorts:
No 6 Cwm Place, off Maesdu Road, was the last home of Llandudno's oldest citizen, Rose Stallard, who died on 4 April 1972, three months short of her 103rd birthday. Herself the mother of eleven children, she left 158 direct descendants. On her 100th birthday she told the author how, as a child, she earned her keep by carrying buckets of water from the sea to various hotels, for visitors to bathe their feet. She was paid a flat rate of 2d (less than 1p) a bucketful, no matter what the state of the tide, i.e. the distance she had to carry the water.
One of her earliest recollections was of having the exiled Emperor Napoleon III pointed out to her when she was a very young child. He died soon afterwards but was talked about for years, she said.
Wasn't Rose your Mother Mike?
-
No Troj. Rose was my Nain. Madge was my mother.
-
No Troj. Rose was my Nain. Madge was my mother.
Ah yes, I stand corrected.
-
All that remains now of the Gogarth Tearooms where Miriam Yr Ogof lived. The views from there are still outstanding
-
Hey. Some attribution to Davy Stallard who originally found where the cave behind St Petrocks was and took the original photos. My family too. With Alun Baines now of New Zealand - and largely thanks to him - I have a full Jones family tree. Dunno who 'Apra' is; she seems an interloper cashing in on the Miriam's legend. Davy and I did try to contact her to find out who she is when she published her article in the NWW but without success and without response.
Hi Michael
Just to say hello, lots of memories of your mum and dad, I'm living in Old Colwyn haven't flown far from the nest. Hope you're keeping well.
Miriam
-
Hi Miriam, welcome to the Forum. There are loads of photos and memories of Llandudno on here so I hope that you enjoy them. $good$
I was walking on the Great Orme on Saturday (see walking under Hobbies and interests) and I passed the ruins of Miriam Jones' Gogarth Tea Rooms and the tiles in her kitchen are in remarkable condition really considering how long it has been a ruin.
My Nain and Taid would have known Miriam as they lived in one of the Penmorfa Cottages that were in the grounds of the Gogarth Abbey Hotel and Miriam would have passed by when she came into town also Nain was also from Amlwch as was Isaac.
My Grandparents moved to 33 Cwm Place when the Penmorfa cottages were demolished in 1936 and that is where I was brought up. I left there in 1970 when I got married.
I remember you and your parents living in the street as you would pass our house on the way to the shops or town.
-
Hi Hugo
It's a small world. I'm new to the forum so I suppose it's wrong of me to ask your real name. I'm trying to remember who lived at no. 33 was it near the alleyway to the shops ? Any glues which would jog the memory ? I remember the Griffins at that end.
I only stumbled across this forum looking for info on my grandparents, it's really good - not getting any work done though - too busy looking things up.
-
Hi Miriam, Wyn and John Griffin lived at No 30, Sam Owen at No 31 (bottom flat) and my two brothers and I lived next door at No 33. ?{}?
-
Miriam hello Darlin, this is your big daft cousin Eddie JONES. The last time I saw you was just befre Christmas 1963 in Cwm place, I joined the Fleet Air Arm a couple of months later and I only visit occasionally. I've had a few contacts via the forum, it's a darn good site. A lot of people seem to know me but I have only managed to crack four user names.
Anyway keep in touch. I'll e mail you my phone number etc.
-
Hi Miriam,
I used to work with your cousin Eddie helping his dad Ted (Yr Ogof) with his pleasure boats and lobster pots on the north shore in Llandudno in the 1950's and I also lost touch with him after he joined the Fleet Air Arm in 1963. Like you it wasn't till I joined the Forum that I saw his name mentioned and managed to contact him again after nearly 50 years, so as he says in his message "it's a darn good site!" I also recently spotted one of his dad's old pleasure boats ("Welsh Maid") which has now been converted and is now fishing out of Conwy and sent him a photo which he says brought back a few memories. Good luck with your search for your family.
-
Hi Gwynant
You may have come across my Dad Alun he was Ted's brother and used to help out at times on the boats. The Welsh Maid used to be my favourite boat, lovely to hear she's still around, I'll look out for her when I go to Conwy. So thanks for the info.
-
Hi Hugo
For the life of me I can't think who you are - it'll come to me eventually , put it down to age ......... my excuse anyway.
-
There are seven in this Llandudno Youth Club team C1963 who lived in Cwm Place can you remember the faces?
-
Thanks for that Hugo I picked out the 7 faces couldn't put names to all of the faces, it was a long time ago ....
-
Is that you bottom left ?
-
Hi Miriam,
Yes, I do remember your dad Alun. He was slightly taller than brother Ted, sometimes wore a flat cap and always cheerful! I also seem to remember Ted selling fish from a barrow on the corner by the Carlton during the winter months, and I think he also had a small fruit and veg shop for a while at the bottom end of Bodhyfryd Road opposite the side entrance to the Clarence bar. You will find the "Welsh Maid" moored in mid-river off the bridge end of Conwy quay (see photo below which I sent to cousin Eddie). When Ted had her she was registered in Beaumaris as BS 167 but now she has been re-registered as CO 332.
-
Wow doesn't she look posh, would never have recognized her..... Can you remember a man by the name of Frank Curbishly ? he lives down the road from me and used to be around the boats in Llandudno and I think was a friend of Johnny Rogo Eddie's brother ? He's a wealth of knowledge as far as the Llandudno boats go - I'll tell him about the Welsh Maid he'll be thrilled to bits to know she's working.
Thanks for that Gwynant
-
Is that you bottom left ?
Well done Miriam $good$
The front row were all from Cwm Place and were L to R Brian Hughes (33) Phil Jones (35) Jeff Berrington (45) Ray Breeze (26) and Joe Jones (42a ?)
Back Row Johny Griffin (30) holding cup and extreme right David Rawling (2)
-
Gwynant, crackin' photo of the maid. I see she has a cabin up forad. When Dad first had her she had hotchkiss cone propellers (paddles to you landlubbers!!) Brilliant for going right inshore( as she was an old lifeboat.) but not very fast, so Dad had a Gardner diesel fitted and after two ot three years we fitted a cabin up forard gave us a bit of shelter when we were fishing, do you remember? but it cut down on the amount of passengers we could carry in the summer, so off it came. She looks well again and as you point out with a different registration number. Next time I'm up we'll go and see her.
-
Hugo, clocked you, another one I know! Whatever happened to Wyn GRIFFIN. I seem to remember through the mists of time I went with him when he went for an interview at Quinton Hazell, I lost track of him after that, mind you I've lost track of lots of things. I could have been dreaming though. All the best
-
Joey Jones used to be a porter in Llandudno hospital, he used to pick my mum up and put her in the laundry trolley ..... she was only little and couldn't get out ..... ;D
-
Hi Miriam,
I think Frank Curbishley is a relative of mine. It was my maiden name and I know that some of the Curbishley family live in the area. My great grandfather was named Edward Curbishley. Perhaps if you get a chance you could ask him if he knows anything about his ancestors.
Thanks,
Jane.
-
There were Curbishleys in Abbey Road. Ron and Gillian, both now sadly dead. There were children ( I don't know how many) and I know of one still in the area.
-
I'll ask him Jane I usually see him about and I'll let you know. Frank used to do a bit of boxing if I remember right.
-
There were Curbishleys in Abbey Road. Ron and Gillian, both now sadly dead. There were children ( I don't know how many) and I know of one still in the area.
I knew Ron and Gillian from the time that they had two Old English Sheepdogs and we had one also. They were a nice couple and I was sorry to hear that they had both died.
-
Hugo, clocked you, another one I know! Whatever happened to Wyn GRIFFIN. I seem to remember through the mists of time I went with him when he went for an interview at Quinton Hazell, I lost track of him after that, mind you I've lost track of lots of things. I could have been dreaming though. All the best
Ed, Wyn did work at Quinton Hazell on the computers there. He later set up in business on his own and then did a lot of travelling overseas in that line of work. I haven't seen him for many years and last thing I heard was that he was back living in Llandudno but that was some time ago.
The last time I remember speaking to you was when I was with Wyn by Thompsons Newsagents next to the Carlton.
Wyn never played for the Youth Club which was a shame as he was a good footballer.
-
Thanks to Miriam and Nemesis.
Ron Curbishley was my first cousin once removed. I would love to get in touch with any Curbishleys in the area. It was quite a shock to find my Curbishley heritage in Colwyn Bay and Llandudno as well as my Roberts connections!. I only realised they were there quite recently. I tried on my last visit to Llandudno in Dec 2012 to find some info at the library but with no success.
-
mmm- that puts me in a dilemma as I obviously can't just put the name on here and we now have no p/m facility. As the person concerned isn't now called Curbishley it makes it more difficult, and she runs a local business, but I can tell you that there is a memorial stone for them ( Ron and Gillian) at the rear of St. Georges Church in Llandudno.
-
Hello Nemesis,
Thanks for that, I agree it is a problem to exchange details! Don't know how to get round it! I will think of something!
Jane
-
Hello Jane.
Just a bit more info without broadcasting names. Gillian's mother is still alive, this makes her Ron's mother in law.. I think she is 94.
Will have to find a way to get round this, as I don't want the family jumping down my neck !!
Dave R. might have a suggestion.
Nem.
-
I have been in touch with Frank Curbishley and he was a brother of Ron and Gillian. I've asked him to look at the forum with a mind to joining - this would solve all the problems of giving out his contact details. He seemed really interested, I'll call round and give him the web address etc. So hopefully Jane you may find out some more of your family history. ££$ Hope this is of some help.
-
Hope so, as I am sure Jane B will be pleased to fit the missing people into her family.
-
I went to St. George's school with Celia Curbishly in the 50's but don't know what happened to her, nice girl.
I also went to Mostyn with Wyn Griffin. I travelled back from London with him on a train in the 80's and he had set up his own computer business where the copy shop used to be opposite the Albert. But whatever happened to him after that I don't know. Ed. Jones was in our class too!
Wasn't Johnny Griffin a footballer?
-
Miriam and Nemesis
Thanks so much for that.I don't want to take over this topic but I am grateful for all your efforts. I will probably take a trip to Llandudno soon so might get a chance then to meet up with anyone interested if approprate.
Such a nice bunch of people on this forum!!
-
Wasn't Johnny Griffin a footballer?
[/quote]
Llechwedd, that's Johny Griffin holding the cup when we won the North Wales Youth Clubs Final at Penmaenmawr! John was a great asset to any side as he could play well anywhere and he was a Welsh Amateur International Footballer and got his caps playing at left full back. I saw him play in one international at the old Llandudno FC ground.
-
Miriam and Nemesis
Thanks so much for that.I don't want to take over this topic but I am grateful for all your efforts. I will probably take a trip to Llandudno soon so might get a chance then to meet up with anyone interested if approprate.
Such a nice bunch of people on this forum!!
Sounds good, post on here and we could meet up. ;)
-
Hello Nemesis,
Is next Wednesday 9th Jan any good for you? I can be in Llandudno by 12.30 in time for coffee and a sandwich. You name the venue and I'll be there.
Jane
-
Hi.
Sorry I have a dental appointment in Colwyn Bay at 12.40pm, but I could meet you during the afternoon if that would be any good?
-
I will be in Llandudno all afternoon so if you are OK after your dental appointment I would be happy to meet then. Could you do 2pmIsh?
Regards Jane
-
Hopefully I am only having an inspection, so could we say 2.30pm? (No pun intended !) as I shall have to get back from the Bay and leave the car at home.
Where do you want to meet?
-
Hi, I could meet you in Colwyn Bay if that was easier. I will be coming on the train as I don't drive so the station would be a handy place to meet.
Jane
-
Hi. The dentist I use ( and wish I didn't) is on the outskirts of Colwyn Bay, so Llandudno would be better if you can manage that. Can you manage 2.30pm outside Cafe Nero? Then if the coffee is lousy we can blame all the members who have said how good it is !!
-
Hi,
The dentist trip doesn't sound too good!!
I can make it at the time and place stated so see you on Wednesday 2.30 cafe Nero. It will be quite good fun trying to guess who each other is! I am short and not slim and will have a purple coat on! Hope that's enogh to go on!
Thanks,
Jane
-
Fine !
Neither am I slim!!! I have white wavy hair and will probably be wearing a rust coloured coat with a 'twiddly' scarf.
-
I love it when a plan comes together! See you then.
-
Hi
Only just read your post jane and nemesis.
I'll try and make it, if I can. I will be wearing a black coat and a bright coloured scarf. That puts me in the majority sorry, haven't got a different coloured coat, maybe that's an excuse to buy one ;D I'm medium build and wear my hair up if that's of any help. I'm sure I'll find you two. Look forward to meeting you both. I'll try and see Frank before Wednesday and get some info from him.
Hopefully see you Wednesday. P.S I'll let you know on Tuesday via forum if I can make it or not save you hanging around.
-
Hi Miriam,
Fantastic! Really hope to see you there too!
Jane
-
Great--I only hope that the info. I can pass on is to do with the right people. Mind you it is a pretty uncommon name.
Look forward to seeing you both.
-
Hopefully I will be able to make it tomorrow, if I'm not outside Nero's when you meet up, I'll find you inside, I'll be the one with the blank help me expression ..... so don't wait around in the cold for me.
take care
-
Lovely, see you tomorrow all being well.
-
Barring plague and pestilence I shall be there !
-
Hugo, regarding your posting of the 1963 Youth Club Football team on Jan. 1st. can you tell me the name of the player 3rd. from the left on the back row between John ("Ben") Nokes and Johnny Griffin please? I know (or knew) all the others as they are about my age (give or take a couple of years). I have even printed the photo and asked various people from that era, but nobody can put a name to the face ( including Glyn Lister who is next but one to him next to Davie Rawlings on the back row!). Thanks very much.
-
I'm sorry Gwynant but I can't remember his name. He was a friend of Johny Griffin and only played for one season. I think that his first name was Eddie but I've no idea of his surname and think that he may have lived in Rhuddlan Avenue :-[
-
Barring plague and pestilence I shall be there !
Hope that the Girls Aloud get together went ok $good$
-
Yes fine thanks-- we found each other and enjoyed a natter.
-
Thanks for coming out today ladies, so nice to put faces to names!
-
Likewise it was lovely to meet you both, must do it again sometime.
I'll be in touch with regards to Frank and I'll pop to his house tomorrow and pass on your details.
-
I'm sorry Gwynant but I can't remember his name. He was a friend of Johny Griffin and only played for one season. I think that his first name was Eddie but I've no idea of his surname and think that he may have lived in Rhuddlan Avenue :-[
Hugo, I was speaking to Davie Rawlings today and I showed him the photo of the 1963 Youth Club Team. He named all the players and said that the guy we couldn't name was Eifion Williams,(3rd from right ,back row), who lived in Rhuddlan Avenue and was a friend of the late Dave Hobson who also lived in the same road.
-
Thanks Gwynant, Dave's got a better memory than me and has been able to put a name to that player. $good$
Eifion wasn't a local lad or otherwise we would have known his name and if I'm right then he wasn't in Rhuddlan Avenue for long.
Dave's a great mate of mine and we go back a long way. I hope that he was keeping well when you spoke to him and next time you see him again would you please give him my regards.
-
$good$ Hi Miriam. This is an amazing site - after all these years, the lovely little girl who lived in the flat below with Megan and Alan appears fuzzily again in my vision - dressed in a black coat with a bright scarf. How on earth did you drift so far away into indian country at Old Colwyn! You are, for me, rooted firmly and prettily in the Cwm Place flat below - except that you now have the mantle of proud Queen of the 'R Ogos carrying the most famous name in Llandudno.
Fond greetings.
Mike.
-
I was looking for someone in the 1881 Census and came across an entry for Isaac and Miriam Jones. They left the cave about 1877 and in 1881 were living at the Gogarth Tea Rooms on the Marine Drive. Although they had so many children only Rebecca (aged 11) was still living at home.
I always believed that Isaac was from Amlwch but the Census said that he was born in Liverpool. Miriam was born in Llanelian Denbighshire and Rebecca in Llandudno
-
Hi Hugo
Never heard that before, I thought Miriam was from Gyffin Conwy, and as you say Isaac was from Amlwch. Must look it up when I get a minute.
-
Hi Miriam,
Those Census records are quite good for finding information and I was looking at an earlier Census (can't remember the year) and this was at the time that the family were living in the cave. The entry showed the address as " Cave by Gogarth" and Isaac Jones was listed but no other members of the family were listed which was a bit strange.
-
$good$ Hi Miriam. This is an amazing site - after all these years, the lovely little girl who lived in the flat below with Megan and Alan appears fuzzily again in my vision - dressed in a black coat with a bright scarf. How on earth did you drift so far away into indian country at Old Colwyn! You are, for me, rooted firmly and prettily in the Cwm Place flat below - except that you now have the mantle of proud Queen of the 'R Ogos carrying the most famous name in Llandudno.
Fond greetings.
Mike.
Hi Mike
Lovely to hear from you hope you are keeping well. As you say it is an amazing site I've found out so much family history, still loads to find out. It's just finding the time to do it. And yes, I've been very adventurous going this far away from Llandudno. I have even lived as far away as Denbigh for a short while but that was a bit too far away...... Have you seen the photo I've put on the gallery of your Mum and Lily Owen ?
My Mum and your Mum were very good friends and used to go to bingo together. I remember the siamese cat "Orlando" that your Mum had, I thought he was wonderful and eventually got one of my own, many years later ( two actually) and it was all down to your Mum. If I remember correctly we are related through Rosie Stallard, was she my Grandmothers sister ?
Hopefully speak again soon, take care
Miriam
-
Hi miriam, I'm new to the forum but its been really helpful. My great grandmother was also Rose Stallards sister.Although I never knew all the family you all talk about my mother remembers lots of them. She is not in the best of health but loves talking about all the family, especially when I find new information for her. We all live in Conwy.
-
Hi Emma.
Good to hear from yet another family member. I've accumulated quite a lot of family history and have posted information on this forum (Genealogy I think). What's your Gt Gran's name?
-
hi micox, my gt gran was mary known as polly from welshpool. we'v spoken before when by father was really ill and its taken me a long time to get back to doing the family tree. my computer is being fixed at the moment and am not using my email until its sorted, as soon as it is i'll email you with my details.
-
I have joined this forum rather late...however I am not an interloper, and i am most certainly not "Cashing in" on the stories of the Orme. Mirium Yr Ogof is my Great Grandmother, My father was Jonny Yr Ogof son of Ted and I have been compiling a book of the family for quite a while. I have had various articles and stories published over the years but complition of the book has been emotionally draining, I can only really work on it for a few weeks then I walk away because it is extremely upsetting at times, not because of anything bad, but because I loved my father very much and miss him every day.
I would even if this reply is several years too late like to share my knowledge of the family with people.
I am no longer an entertainer..(Fire Eater-Juggler) A profession my Father would have loved to have seen me do, I am a factory owner in Wrexham and free lance writer
If it isnt too late, I am hoping to share historical knowledge and family experiences with you
Kind Regards
Apra :D
-
Re: Miriam and Isaac Jones ( Yr Ogof)
? Reply #13 on: May 17, 2011, 10:03:29 pm ?
Quote
Hey. Some attribution to Davy Stallard who originally found where the cave behind St Petrocks was and took the original photos. My family too. With Alun Baines now of New Zealand - and largely thanks to him - I have a full Jones family tree. Dunno who 'Apra' is; she seems an interloper cashing in on the Miriam's legend. Davy and I did try to contact her to find out who she is when she published her article in the NWW but without success and without response.
I know this is a long shot as not sure this conversation still running, I'm trying to trace my great Taid's family. He was John Jones and was killed in an explosion in Dolgarog Aluminium works in 1916. My Nain said his Great Nain lived in a cave on the Orme and sold tea to walkers. I didn't really take much notice until I read an article about Miriam. I think my Great Taid's father or grand father was one of her sons, he worked on the railway and lived in Rowen and Llandogedd, he was still alive when my Great Taid was killed as he is mentioned in the news paper report but not named. My great Taid also had a sister and brother called Tommy who fought in WWI and my great great nain and taid were living in LLandoged then. I have read that you have the Jones family tree, i was just wondering if that fits in with the tree
-
A1 sorry I can't help you on your search but I've enclosed photos from the paper that you were talking about. Miriam and Isaac lived in Gogarth Cave which appears in old O/S maps of Llandudno. Isaac also gives the address of Gogarth Cave in the Census records of the 1800's
When they were building the Marine Drive around the Great Orme Mostyn Estates wanted the family to move from the cave but Miriam resisted that eviction threat unless Mostyn Estates gave them a cottage to live in and that's when they moved to the Gogarth Tea rooms where they ran a business from
I hope some forum readers can give you the answers you are looking for, good luck
-
Hello AJ,
I am happy to do some research on your query but cannot start it today. It may take me a week or so to spend time on this as I am busy with personal matters right now. It would help if you could put some dates of your ancestors if possible. Do you know how old John Jones was when he died in 1916? It sounds as though you have an obituary for him, can you post the details please?
Helig
-
Diolch for the photos Hugo, they are fantastic.
Thank you so much Helig for your offer. I have found him in the 1911 census in Trefriw when he was living with my great Nain, we don't know if they were actually married as they ran away together to South Wales before coming back to Trefriw. I know his parents lived in Llandoged when my Nian was a little girl. Jwe think John was Miraim's grandson or great granson. Thank you
-
1
-
This is the information of 1911 census, I have photots of the newspaper report of the accident but they will not post as too large to send as an attachment. The accident was on the 29th May and he died a few days later in Llandudno Cottage hospital. The inquest was reported in the paper on 15th June.
-
Have a number of newspaper reports about the death in English ac yn Gymraeg, I've given up trying to attach so written out the most relevent.
Thursday June 15Th
Mr John Jones Trefriw
AS a result of the injuries sustained in the recent fire at the Dolgarrog Works. Mr. John Jones, Pleasant View, died at the Llandudno Cottage Hospital on Wednesday at the age of 37.
The remains were interred at the public cemetery on Saturday. when the Revs, OwenEvans (w) Llanrwst and J Ellis Williams Bangor officiated.
Amongst the mourners were the widow and her children and his aged father. Also Messers H J Jacks managing director C Colley Manager and J Lobley and a large number of fellow workmen.
Thursday June 15Th 1916
Burnt to Death
Inquest on Victim of Dolgarrog Accident
An inquest took place on Friday at Llandudno before Mr J Pentir Williams touching the death of John Jones aged 36, of Trefriw, who died in Llandudno Cottage hospital on Wednesday from burns sustained at the works of the Aluminium Corporation the Vale of Conwy on May 29Th
Mr Crossley Colley manager of the works, said that thefire suddenly occurred in the works where aluminium is manufactured and Jones and four others sustained injuries. He was a very careful workman.
Mr j Lloyd Edwards, Home Office Inspector of Factories and Workshops, was present at the inquest and stated that he had visited the works and was satisfied that the regulations were being carried out there, but no doubt the Home Officewould go carefully into the matter.
A verdict of Accidental Death was returned.
Mr E W Johnson, on behalf of the owners of the works, expressed their sympathy with the widow and three children, and this was participatedin by the jury.
-
When I've reread the posts above it has just clicked with me who Miriam is. Miriam and Micox lived in the same street as me and I lived at the opposite end of the street.
My brother was working on St Petrocks some years ago and phone Miriam so she could see the cave for herself, it's a small world
-
Here are a couple of photos of St Petrock's on the Marine Drive Llandudno. The strange shaped building on the shore side of the road is the Summer House belonging to St Petrock's
Sadly it has fallen into disrepair but I do remember many years ago when it was still in use and it's in a stunning location. Some books on Miriam and Isaac say the cave is behind the garage door but I do know that there is a tunnel under the road linking the Summer House to St Petrock's. I wish that I'd have been able to see the actual cave myself
-
Thank you for this information, AK. It has given me much more to work on. I shall get going and post my findings in due course. It may be later on next week before I can do this but I shall make a start with the research.
-
Diolch Hugo and Helig for all you support, it's really kind of you to give your time.I walk along Marine drive often and always hope that the owner of Petrock have the garage doors open.
-
No such luck AJ, the owners live nearby but not in St Petrock's, I've even had a cheeky look through the letterbox in the garage but it's covered over on the inside so you can't see anything
iF you walk along the Marine Drive from the West Shore, look out for a road on the right called Pen Y Ffordd Goch because that's where the Gogarth Tea Rooms once was. The steps where Miriam stood in the photo are still there and if you look at the cottage from Pen Y Ffordd Goch you will see the quarry tiles from her kitchen and they still look in good shape
-
I have been there as I remember the red tiles.
I have been looking at John Jones following the information posted by AJ. This will take a while to research due to having such a common name.
On the 1911 census he states that he has been married less than one year. His wife is Annie, age 24, born Trefriw. The only marriage I can find which looks likely is in the June quarter of 1910 registered in Conwy District. John Jones married Annie Ellen Williams. Reference is Vol 11b, page 745. It would be worthwhile getting their marriage certificate as that would show the name and occupation of his father.
I found a possible person for him in the 1901 census. He is a servant in the household of John Calvin Jones in Maenan. John Calvin Jones is a farmer living in Maesygroes. It shows John Jones, servant, age 20, Carter, born Roewen. It is Llanwrst district, schedule 8, piece 5242, folio 87, page 2.
There doesn't appear to be a John Jones born Rowen in the 1891 census. I have tried to find him in this as he should be with his parents but he has eluded me to date. There is a John Jones age 8 living with his parents in Maenan. This states he was born in Maenan. His father is Robert Jones, age 31, farm labourer born Maenan.
One thing that intrigues me is that on the 1911 census Lydia Evans is shown as his sister, she is single. Why is her surname Evans? I have tried searching for her as her name is not so common but this has drawn a blank up to now. The only birth registration that comes up is for Lydia Evans born 1891 and registered in Wrexham RD.
I shall continue my search.
-
Hugo and Helig, thank you so much for everything you have shared, you have been amazing
My Great Nain was an Evans before they were married. they ran off to S, wales because the family was against the relationship, John worked down the pit for a few years before returning to trefriw so they may have married there. Lydia was my Great Nains sister. I have managed to trace her side of the family but John is proving to be difficult. My mam thinks if they did get married, they married in Llanrwst before going to S. Wales
-
AJ, this is just an observation but I think that the address of John Evans showing Llanffyfni is misspelt. It should be Llanllyfni near Nebo which is in Gwynedd and is by Caernarfon
-
After I posted the previous message I thought that Lydia may be the sister of Annie, rather than John Jones. I have searched for a marriage between John Jones and Annie there is a possible entry for them in Llanwrst RD in the December quarter of 1910 in Llanwrst RD. John Jones married Ann Evans. Vol 11b page 591. That fits with the census entry which states they had been married for less than one year at the census date in 1911.
I have had another attempt to find John Jones in the 1891 census. This was unsuccessful again.
Do you know if John and Annie had any children?
-
That's wonderful thank you. They had four girl, Margaret, Em (not sure of her full name, we just called her aunty Em) Eleanor and Sian who was born after her father's death.
-
I've ordered a copy of the marriage certificate as it looks promising, hopefully it will have John's parents' names so it will bring me a step closer to Miriam and Isaac
-
I hope the marriage in 1910 proves to be the right one for them.
It might be that his mother was Margaret as they tended to name children after their parents, girl after mother and boy after father.
The situation regarding the entry on the 1891 census has been food for thought. I wonder whether a place search for Rowen would help identify the family, or at least give a few possibles. I shall look into this and see how extensive it would be. I have looked for Jones in Rowen but nothing comes up. In the 1881 census (family might be in Rowen if he was born c1883) it is the same. There are very many Jones families in Maenan then. It is possible he was born somewhere else too the places they give for their birth are often inaccurate.
A place search for Trefriw might be worthwhile. I have had a quick look at the 1881 census for Trefriw and it has 26 pages. I will see what 1891 looks like.
-
I was looking at the free bmd records on line and there is a possible marriage for Isaac and Miriam in 1839. I don't subscribe to the site so I can't be absolutely certain but it looks a possibility.
The marriage was in 1839 at Llandrillo Yn Rhos ( I'm assuming in those days that Llanelian Yn Rhos was in that parish )
Now according to a book I have just read Isaac and Miriam had 15 children but by 1877 only Rebecca aged 11 remained at home, the home then being the Gogarth Tea rooms. I think that they had about 3 sets of twins in their family
I don't know if the childrens' names are shown in a family tree but if not their names may appear in the Baptism records for the Parish of Llandudno. If AJ finds the name of his relative's parents it could narrow the search a bit
-
Thanks Hugo and Helig.
Margaret was Annie's mother's name but it was such a common name it could also have been John's mother.
I'm on the familysearch web site but data is missing, I put in my Nain's birth dateto test it and it didn't find her so I do not know how good it site is.
I didn't realsise that books had been published abour Isaac and Miriam, have you got the tiles please?
-
AJ The book I was reading was called "Llandudno Queen of the Welsh Resorts" and it's by a great author called Ivor Wynne Jones. It's about the town of Llandudno and describes the streets by street with points of interest.
My copy is about 50 years old and well and truly read over the years. I've attached the reference to Isaac and Miriam from the book for you to see
Just as an add on in case you are unaware of it, one of their descendants was a lovely guy called Ted "Yr Ogof " Jones. Ted was a local boatman and always had a smile and a chat whenever we walked past him. Sadly Ted died on the promenade and a plaque in his memory was put near the spot where he died. His son Ed Jones is a forum member
-
I am sure there was a query relating to a descendant of Isaac and Miriam Jones on the Genealogy board of the Forum some time ago. I seem to think I did some research on this family then.
Isaac Jones can be found on a variety of census returns and was born c1810 in Liverpool, or Amlwch, depending on which census is examined. In 1871, 1881, he is born Liverpool. The 1871 census shows them living in Gogarth Head Rogo. Issac is shown as age 62 and Miriam age 38. Issac is a Fishmonger. They have children as follows: Ellen age 11 (born Liverpool), Kauturah, age 9, John age 6, Isaac, age 5, Rhebecah age 1. The last 4 children were born Llandudno.
By 1881, still living at Gogarth, Isaac and Miriam have only Rebecca living with them. Isaac is age 71 and retired by the look of it.
In 1861 what appears to be Isaac Jones is living in a cave by Gogarth and there are no other members in the household. He is a Boatman and born Amlwch. There is an Isaac Jones living in Amlwch in the 1841 census. He is age 20 and a Labourer.
Isaac appears to have died in 1888 age 75. In the 1891 census Miriam is living at Gogarth age 66 and a widow. Miriam was born Llangelynin. She has children with her Ellen age 32, Keturah, age 29, Rebecca, age 24, Hugh Jones age 9, grandson, John Jones age 2 grandson and William Jones 1 month, grandson.
Miriam Jones is in the 1901 census in Llandudno, living at Gogarth shop. She is age 79 and her occupation Refreshment shop. She is living with a number of relations as: Jonathon Newly, son in law, age 42, Ellen Newley, daughter, age 41, Hughie Jones, grandson age 18, John Jones grandson age 12, Martha Jones, granddaughter age 8, Meriam Newley age 3, granddaughter, Jonathon Newley age 1 grandson, Isaac Newley age 3 months, grandson.
Miriam Jones appears to have died in 1910 as there is a death registered for her in the September quarter of 1910, Conwy RD. Her age is given as 77 but that is a bit suspect.
Ancestry has a marriage for what could be them in Llandudno 13/11/1861, Isaac Jones, full age, bachelor, Fisherman, residence Gogarth, father Hugh Jones, sawyer. Miriam Owens, full age, spinster, residence Wydfyd, father William Owens, blacksmith. This marriage was registered in Conwy RD in the December quarter of 1861. Vol 11b Page 963.
There is a possible baptism for Isaac Jones in the Calvinistic Methdodist Chapel in Beaumaris on 10 May 1813. He was born 29 March 1813 and the son of Hugh and Elizabeth Jones. Hugh being a Farmer.
It looks as though Isaac and Miriam were together before they married.
This is a distraction from the topic but interesting nevertheless.
-
That's a lot of good information you found there Helig, you've certainly been very busy. I have also looked at marriage records for Isaac and Miriam between the years of 1839 and 1861.
There were only 3 marriages in that time that shared the names of Isaac and Miriam. One in Nantglyn Denbigh in 1839 another in 1840 in Ruabon but the most likely one is the one you found in Llandudno in 1861
Now that raises more questions that answers because Miriam would have been about 39 then and presumable had most of her 15 children by then but it could explain why the 1861 Census only shows Isaac as living in the cave. The marriage was about 7 months after the census date.
Now here's a bit of local knowledge that might fit into the details of the marriage that you have found, the Parish of Llandudno in those days was split in to three townships. Gogarth on the western side of the Orme, Cyngreawdr on the northern top of the Orme and Wyddfyd
Now if that info is correct then AJ may have a connection to another forum member
Now this is no more than a guess but although Wyddfyd appears in the marriage records it may not apply to the Wyddfyd Farm. It may well apply to another farm in the township of Wyddfyd, namely Pen Y Mynydd Isaf also known as Pink Farm
The reason I say this is because William Owens was the farmer there and could well have been a Blacksmith too. The marriage records for Miriam show that her father was called William Owens from Wyddfyd. That's too much of a coincidence
-
Thank you for that information Hugo. I looked at the 1851 census for William Owens and found him at Penymynydd as you suspected. He was shown as a Farmer and age 42. His wife is Elizabeth, age 41. They have 2 children then. This is shown after the entry for the Telegraph Signal Station. It is difficult to say for sure as Miriam's age seems to wander a bit. I will try to look at this again. I have been searching the census records for Rowen and Trefriw recently. Nothing of interest has come from this.
Looking at Rowen, it comes under the Caerhun district and the Genuki site shows that the only places for baptisms in Rowen were non conformist chapels.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Caerhun
It is probable that these records haven't survived.
-
Helig
Just a thought. At the time you are interested in, Rowen was in the Ecclesiastical Parish of Llangelynin, so any relevant info may be under that name rather than Caerhun. Ancestry have the parish register online from 1782 to 1967. The parish had two churches, the "old" one up the mountainside and also the 1840s one on the road from the Groes to Rowen - which I think is now a dwelling.
-
Thank you both for all the information again. The information on the National census between 1841 and 1901 is incomplete and parts of the records are missing. As the data was collected by hand, a person may not have been included on the census if they were were not present such as staying with family at the time the data was collected. This was used by the suffragette movement in 1911 as an act of protest.
Do you if there is a full list of names for their childre?
-
Helig and Hugo
I went for a walk round Gogarth yesterday and when I passed the house were the cave was the family were sitting on the terrace. Someone very kindly showed me inside the garage. There is no evidence of the cave in the garage apart from a small cupboard in the rock. He explained that the cave did not carry on straight behind the garrage door but ran parallel to Marine Drive, so the garrage door is were the side was rather than the front. The cave was completely demolished and stretched the length of the garrage and across the patio. He allowed me to take a photo but it just looks like a brick garrage.
Thank you Cambrian for your advice, I shall try that.
-
I have drawn a blank with a baptism John Jones in either Caerhun, or Llangelynin. He cannot be found in a census in these places as well.
Miriam Owens appears to be in Bodidda, Gyffin in the 1841 census. She is in the household of Elinor Hughes, age 50. There are other Owens children there as follows: Elinor Owens age 10, Miriam Owens age 10 and Elizabeth Owens age 7.
In the 1861 census she is in Groes Ffordd, Bodidda, Gyffin and the details are as follows: Evan Williams age 65, head, ag lab, born Conwy; Catherine Williams, wife, age 64, born Llangelynin; Miriam Owens, age 30, Boarder, Foul Dealer, unmarried born Llangelynin; Ellen Owens, daughter, age 11 months, born Liverpool. That fits in with the information held on her marriage to Isaac Jones in that they were a couple prior to marriage.
There are two births registered for an Ellen Owens in Liverpool RD in 1860. One in the March quarter and the other in the September quarter. I reckon she would be in the March quarter.
I cannot find information on the names of all their children however there is an old post on this family which might help:
http://www.threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4294.15
I knew I had researched Isaac and Miriam before.
You might find some information on this family in Conwy Archives.
-
Helig, the newspaper cuttings give John Jones' age as 36 and 37 so that would put his birth in 1879 or 1880
I've done a Baptism search on FREE REG using those dates and the County of Caernarfonshire and only one entry came up for the Conwy Valley area and that was a Baptism on the 10th August 1879.
It was at St Mary's Church Trefriw and he was Baptised John Morris Jones and the parents were John and Margaret Jones and they lived at Tyn Issa'r bont. The father's occupation was a stone cutter.
I don't think that this is the person we are looking for because if John was born in Rowen then as Cambrian said the Parish would be Llangelynin or it could even be Gyffin
Perhaps if AJ gets the marriage certificate that will make the search that much easier
-
I was going on his age of 28 years shown in the 1911 census. This gives his year of birth as 1883. The 1901 census if I have the right person, shows him to be 20. That would put his year of birth as 1881. I wonder the source of the newspaper details.
I have searched FreeBMD for a birth registration but there are so many it is impossible to identify him.
I wonder whether a trip to the archives might help with this query. There is nothing like the prime records and this is preferable to online searches. The archivists may be able to assist with other lines of enquiry.
-
Is it possible to former aluminium works in Dolgarrog would have kept records for their employees and donated them to the archives when this closed?
The only thing that worries me about the ancestors of John Jones is the children of Isaac and Miriam Jones were born a bit too late for the information available. John Jones bc 1883 and their first born, Ellen, born 1860. One of their children may have been his father but that does not match the details we have.
-
There's a great deal of material deposited by the ACL in Conwy Archives.
Staff records are numerous but all under the reference CD12/1/6 This can be checked on their Online catalogue but a visit would be needed to check the actual records.
-
I've just had a look at the online catalogue but cannot see CD12/1/6, Perhaps because of the personal nature of the papers they haven't listed them all?
If AJ receives a copy of the Marriage Certificate a visit to the Archives may not be required but if it is then that reference of CD12/1/6 will be very helpful
-
I'm hoping the marriage certificates come up trumps because it will have John's father's name.
I know the 1911 census is definatly him.
we have looked in the cemetery but I could not find a grave stone, I thought his parents may have been burried with him as my Great Nain was buried with her new husband.
Do you know if there were other families selling refreshments at the same time as Miriam?
-
AJ to the best of my knowledge there was no other families selling refreshments on the Marine Drive but I know that Penmydd Isaf (Pink Farm ) sold drinks and other things but the farm is on the Great Orme itself
At the Conwy Archives they have lists of the Church graves that have headstones and are easy to find as they are alphabetical and give the location of the graves
Do you know the Church where John Jones was buried?
-
One item the employee records would have is his date of birth. This would be invaluable in tracing him. The marriage certificate may give the information you need. I just hope it is the right one.
In a search of Ancestry there was just one family by the name of Jones that came up in Llanddoged. I am showing the Genuki site on this link:
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Llanddoget
I doubt the church records are available online.
The family is that of Edward Jones b1842 and Margaret his wife, born 1845. They had a daughter, Margaret Ellen Jones born Llanddoged in 1881. They are in the 1881 census living in Llanddoget and they have two children, Edward age 9 and David age 6, both born Llanddoget. They are living in The School Cottage there. 1871 census they are living in Llanddoget and have a son, John Jones age 2, born Llanwrst. In the house next door there is a family headed by John Jones age 66, wife Margaret, age 57 and a son, John Jones age 13 a Tailor born Llanddoget. In the 1891 census Edward, Margaret and their daughter are living in Llanwrst. I have shown these as being a possible connection to your family from there.
It may be worthwhile searching the parish records for Llanddoged but these are in Denbighshire so that would mean a trip to Ruthin.
-
Helig
The Llanddoged church registers were copied quite a few years ago by the then Clwyd Archives service. These may have been transferred to Conwy if you look at their online catalogue under reference CEP29.
Following closure of the church, there is material awaiting transfer to the Conwy Archives.
-
Thank you so much for the time you have both invested
-
I think the death registration for John Jones is in Conwy RD in the June quarter of 1916. It shows his age as 35. This fits in with the details of the accident and his death subsequently. The reference is: Vol 11B Page 673. I don't think it will achieve anything to obtain the certificate but the age given indicates his year of birth to be 1881.
-
Helig and Hugo
I went for a walk round Gogarth yesterday and when I passed the house were the cave was the family were sitting on the terrace. Someone very kindly showed me inside the garage. There is no evidence of the cave in the garage apart from a small cupboard in the rock. He explained that the cave did not carry on straight behind the garrage door but ran parallel to Marine Drive, so the garrage door is were the side was rather than the front. The cave was completely demolished and stretched the length of the garrage and across the patio. He allowed me to take a photo but it just looks like a brick garrage.
Thank you Cambrian for your advice, I shall try that.
You were very lucky to have the chance of seeing the cave for yourself. Did they mention the cave or tunnel that goes from the house under the Marine Drive to the Summer House on the other side of the road?
-
Sorry Hugo, I didn't ask about the tunnel, i can not have been in the garage because it was just a brick garage. I do have a picture of the garage but do not want to post it online publicly because it would not be fair to the family but if you would like a copy i could send one to you.
-
I think the death registration for John Jones is in Conwy RD in the June quarter of 1916. It shows his age as 35. This fits in with the details of the accident and his death subsequently. The reference is: Vol 11B Page 673. I don't think it will achieve anything to obtain the certificate but the age given indicates his year of birth to be 1881.
Thank you for your time, i'll follow this up
-
Helig
The Llanddoged church registers were copied quite a few years ago by the then Clwyd Archives service. These may have been transferred to Conwy if you look at their online catalogue under reference CEP29.
Following closure of the church, there is material awaiting transfer to the Conwy Archives.
Briilant thank you
-
Sorry Hugo, I didn't ask about the tunnel, i can not have been in the garage because it was just a brick garage. I do have a picture of the garage but do not want to post it online publicly because it would not be fair to the family but if you would like a copy i could send one to you.
Thanks for your kind offer AJ but I'm hoping to see it for myself sometime in the future so I don't need to see a copy now but thanks anyway
-
Just one question AJ, what was your Great Nain's Christian name, the widow of John Jones who died in 1916?
-
Sorry for late reply Hugo,
It was Annie and her maiden name was Evans
I'm still waiting for their marriage certificate.
-
Thanks very much AJ
-
.Ancestry has a marriage for what could be them in Llandudno 13/11/1861, Isaac Jones, full age, bachelor, Fisherman, residence Gogarth, father Hugh Jones, sawyer. Miriam Owens, full age, spinster, residence Wydfyd, father William Owens, blacksmith. This marriage was registered in Conwy RD in the December quarter of 1861. Vol 11b Page 963.
There is a possible baptism for Isaac Jones in the Calvinistic Methdodist Chapel in Beaumaris on 10 May 1813. He was born 29 March 1813 and the son of Hugh and Elizabeth Jones. Hugh being a Farmer.
It looks as though Isaac and Miriam were together before they married.
This is a distraction from the topic but interesting nevertheless.
Although this is a distraction from AJ's original request I found something on the Free Reg that differs slightly to the above findings
Firstly Isaac was reportedly born in 1811 and the Baptism I found ties in with his birth year and the Amlwch connection
I do not subscribe to any sites but use the free sites and so I am restricted to getting the full info like in the 1861 Census.
This was carried out on Sunday 7th April 1861 and in that Isaac has said that he is married, yet other records show that he was married later on in the year so it is all a bit confusing.
Whatever may be true, the fact is that they had a lot of children in a short space of time
-
Just had letter from the General Register Office, they couldn't find the marriage certificate for Annie and John. AS i can't find John's birth certificate, I think finding a connection between my Great grandfather and Miriam and Isaac is unrealistic if I can't find John's parents' names. Thank you all so much for you help, I've really enjoyed the trying to find the link.
-
AJ sorry to hear that the General Registry couldn't find the marriage certificate, that's frustrating for you but don't give up yet as you just need a bit of luck sometimes
I've just had a go on Free BMD and put in a different criteria and come up with the following but there is no proof that these are your relatives:-
John O Jones married Annie W Evans Conway Registration district Quarter ended March 1912 Vol 11b 575
I've cross checked the entries too.
If John O or Annie W rings a bell let me know and I can explain what to next
-
I was surprised to see you couldn't obtain the marriage certificate. I had another look at this and there is something strange about it. I must confess I wonder whether I have made a mistake with the reference I gave in my former post. FreeBMD shows a marriage in Llanwrst RD in the December quarter 1910 between John Jones and Anne Evans, ref Vol 11b, page 591. In my previous post I gave a different page number of 745 and I wonder if that is why they couldn't trace it. I cannot explain where I got that number from. Please accept my apologies. From details of where they were living at that time I would have expected them to marry in Llanwrst RD.
The marriage in Conwy RD in the March quarter of 1912 between John O Jones and Annie W Evans, ref vol 11b. page 575 is possible but nowhere else has John been shown as having a middle initial of O. Everything places him around Trefriw at that time. It is possible Annie was from another area however. The 1911 census states that they have been married for less than 1 year which suggests they married in 1910, or 1911.
-
Helig and AJ, if the 1911 Census shows John and Annie as being married and the BMD records show the marriage in the Q ended December 2010 then you have probably got the right people.
Even if the General Register cannot provide a Certificate of Marriage using the new ref there is another way of getting one. The Registrar for BMD's for Conwy County is at the Town Hall Lloyd Street Llandudno and they may have the records there. Llanrwst, although in Denbighshire at the time is now in Conwy County and those Marriage records should have been transferred there
The staff at the Registrar's office were very helpful when I called there some years ago and together we found a birth certificate for another forum member who was desperately searching for his Grandfather's birth Certificate/
If you are able to call at the Town Hall AJ then it's worth following up Helig's latest post and then you can see the record first hand
-
Hugo has the right idea and it would be better to obtain this locally rather than the General Registrar. I still think they should have checked the reference in the circumstances. You could take it up with them and see what they say. I have always found the local Registrar's office to be much more helpful. It used to be cheaper to get certificates from them but I don't know if this still applies. Once again, apologies for the mix up.
-
My experience with the local Registrar's office has been very positive and I sat in the office with a lady and we looked through the original Registers. The person I was trying to help had spent a lot of money applying for Certificates and they had all been the wrong ones so by me going to the Town Hall and explaining the circumstances , the forum member was able to get the correct Certificate of his Grandfather
-
Just had letter from the General Register Office, they couldn't find the marriage certificate for Annie and John. AS i can't find John's birth certificate, I think finding a connection between my Great grandfather and Miriam and Isaac is unrealistic if I can't find John's parents' names. Thank you all so much for you help, I've really enjoyed the trying to find the link.
AJ, like I said before don't give up on it and all you need is a bit of luck. Thanks to the work that Helig has done in finding the marriage between John and Annie in 1910 I can tell you that John's father was called Robert Jones.
The marriage took place on the 24th December 1910 and John was aged 28 which puts his birth at C1882 and Annie was aged 24
Unfortunately the hand writing on the Certificate is poor and I can't make out their residences at the date of the marriage
AJ unfortunately hasn't been on the forum since his last posting and doesn't have a contact number so I can't pass on this message to him. If anyone knows who AJ is perhaps they would be kind enough to pass this message on and ask AJ to look at the forum again, thanks
-
Morning Helig and Hugo. I am so sorry i haven't been on for a while due to family circumstances. Thank you so much for that I will look into it. I wonder if they didn't get married till later? Annie's family wouldn't let her marry him so they eloped and ran away to S. Wales. They was a lot of secrecy around everything. One of their daughters later burnt the family Bible with all the dates in the front, so they may have got married quietly later. Thank you both again, I'll have a look again.
-
Thank you for obtaining the certificate and posting it Hugo. I think the address of John Jones is Nant y Felin but cannot decipher the other word. I shall pursue this however.
When I was searching for John Jones originally I came across a Robert Jones who seemed to be of interest and a potential father for him. I think he was based around Maenan. I think the second word in Annie's address to be Trefriw.
I note the witnesses were Joseph Jones and Annie Jones and we can presume they are related to John Jones. I suspect they could be his siblings, or Annie is his mother. This gives us more information to work on.
I am recovering from a big operation at the moment but am just starting to get going again. I will have another look at this as soon as possible.
-
I'm sorry to hear about you having a big operation Helig and I just want to wish you a speedy recovery. I'll post more later as I have to go and pick my car up now after it's MOT
-
Sorry Hugo I've only just seen the certificate as it was under an advert. Thank you so much for this.
Thank you both again for all your support, I'm sorry that you are having an operation, I hope it all goes well
-
Hugo, I noticed that the date on certificate is 2023, did you have to pay for this? If you did it's important that i reimburse you.
Thank you Amanda
-
Amanda, it is a copy and that is why it's dated 2023. I had a good search online but couldn't find anything definite so I was going to go to the Archives and the Registrar's office but I decided to send for the certificate instead after checking Helig's second reference number.
It's been my pleasure trying to help out because I am fascinated by Isaac and Miriam and the descendants I know have all been really nice people. I wouldn't dream of any reimbursement as it was my choice to do it after all. You are welcome to have the certificate for keeping because I have saved a copy on my laptop. Just send a PM with an address where you want it to go to if you want it
Helig, I'm happy now because my 15 year old car passed the MOT with no problem, so that's good. I can now make out that Nant Y Felin now that you have pointed it out and the other word is Maenan but I still can't make out Annie's address in Trefriw.
Anyway we are now looking for Robert Jones' birth and based on John Jones birth at C1882 I think that Robert's birth must be somewhere between 1855 and 1864 but that's a wild guess.
I did find something interesting on Free Reg last night and it was a Baptism for Robert Isaac Jones in 1960 at St Tudno's Church. His father was an Isaac Jones but the mother was Mary. It makes you think of all scenarios, did Mary die and Isaac marry Miriam the following year? That's what makes AJ's search so interesting
Llandudno's population in 1851 was just 1131 so there would not have been too many Isaac Jones' living in the town
Anyway I would like to think that AJ is nearer to finding the connection to Isaac and Miriam. In the meantime I hope you get well soon
-
Thank you Hugo that's so kind of you, i still wish you would let me pay for it because they aren't cheap. I have tried to PM you by clicking on your name but it says I don't have access.
I know that Annie's father built houses in Trefriw and they ran a farm above the village. In the 1911 census their address is Rebo Trefriw,
My mam was very close to her nain and it was lovely to be able to show her the wedding certificate, she asked me to say thank you to both of you for all your support.
I do know that John and his mother are buried in the cemetery above Trefiw, so i think I will nip and have a look when the we have a nice day, as I have John's date of death I'm hoping that his mother was buried with him. If I can find her name i may be able to find her wedding certificate. I know that both parents survived John and Annie is buried with her second husband.
Thank you again
-
Could it be Gwynfryn, Trefriw ?
-
See my post dated 21/08/2023. In the 1891 census there was a John Jones age 8 in the household of Robert Jones, farm labourer, living in Maenan. I had that as a possible for him although Maenan didn't agree with the information we had then.
Maenan is in the parish of Eglywsbach according to Genuki:
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Eglwysbach/EglwysbachGaz1868
I am in a hurry today but will look at it again.
-
Could it be Gwynfryn, Trefriw ?
Thanks Cambrian and you could be right with Gynfryn Trefriw as the Welsh name still exists there. That hand writing is pretty bad so you did well to decipher it
https://www.sykescottages.co.uk/cottage/North-Wales-Snowdonia-Trefriw/Gwynfryn-1080749.html
-
That was a good find of yours on 21st August 2023 and the marriage certificate confirms your find
-
Thank you Hugo that's so kind of you, i still wish you would let me pay for it because they aren't cheap. I have tried to PM you by clicking on your name but it says I don't have access.
You are very welcome AJ but your thanks are enough as I have enjoyed helping out If Ian the Admin can help with the message facility then I can send the certificate on to you but don't post any personal details on here
You mentioned going to look for the grave in Trefriw on a good day, I know it won't be today as it's like a monsoon here at the moment.
I don't know if you are aware of the fact but the Conwy Archives has a list of Church graves that have headstones. The person's names are listed alphabetically so they are easy to trace, also listed alphabetically are house names etc and they all give the plot number of the grave together with a plan of where they are in the graveyard. It's very helpful if you need it
Now the other point is that since 1837 all births in the UK have to be registered so there will be a registration for Robert Jones. The Church register may be in the Conwy Archives too so if it is then that entry may give you the final link from John Jones to Robert then to Isaac I'll try to search online over the weekend
-
I have had some more time to look at this and have the entry for John Jones in the 1891 census. It isn't the same person that I saw last time round. The entry is on the same page however. The household comprises:
Nant y Felin, Maenan.
Robert Jones - not at home.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 38, born Denbighshire. Language spoken: Welsh. This applies to all of them.
John Jones, son, age 10, born Maenan.
Ellen Jones, daughter, age 7, born Maenan.
Anne Jones, daughter, age 5 (not very clear could be 6) born Maenan.
In the next household, also Nant y Felin, there is a Mary Jones, Head, age 69, widow, pauper, born Maenan. I just wonder if she is related to Robert Jones, could be his mother.
The household following this lived in Maenan Mill. This is just to give you an idea of the location.
This is definitely the right entry as it has them in Nant y Felin. The other John Jones is shown as John R Jones, age 8, with the household residing at Dolfadog/Dolfadeg. The head of that household is Robert Jones too.
It is a bit of a struggle to find the right people but I did get Robert and Elizabeth Jones in the 1911 census. They are still living in Nant y Felin, Maenan.
Robert Jones, Penteulu, 58, Priod, married 33 years, 7 children, six living, one died. Labrwr ar ffyrdd, born Roewen, Caerns
Elizabeth Jones, Gwraig, 57, Priod, born Llandudno, Caerns. Both speak Cymraeg.
I shall have another look for more information on them shortly.
-
I think this is the right people in the 1901 census. Some of the details differ from other ones but it looks a possible for them.
Maenan, Coedyffynnon.
Robert Jones Head, married, age 46, working on the roads, born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 47, born Llandudno.
David Jones, son, age 9, born Maenan.
Thomas Owen Jones, son, age 7, born Maenan.
All Welsh speaking.
Details in the 1911 census are that they had been married for 33 years then. This would put their year of marriage as c1878. I wonder if they married in Llandudno as Elizabeth was born there.
-
Helig and Hugo, you're both amazing, thank you so much. I do know that my great Taid had a brother called Thomas, because my Nain said her uncle Tommy fought in WWI and that Fits. Robert's place of birth in Caerhun fits because in one census John's place of birth is recorded as Rowen. Unless Miriam and Isaac lived in Caerhun, then Robert Jones can not be related to Isaac. If my family is related to Miriam and Isaac, it has to be on Elizabeth's side.
-
There are two possible Robert Jones born in Caerhun 1854 in the 1861 census, both have parents called John and Ann but different ages and one in Caerhun and the other in Llangelynin at time of census. Definitely not connected to Isaac
Interestingly in the 1901 census, there is a John Jones working as a farm servant on a farm in Llangelynin near Caerhun with estimated dob 1881 which fit his age from the 1891 census and age on his wedding certificate with his occupation is farm labourer. Unlike the 1891 census, his birth place Caerhun but in the 1911 census, his place of birth in Rowen.
-
I agree that any connection with Isaac and Miriam Jones must be on Elizabeth's side. I thought that when I saw she was born in Llandudno. There are a couple of marriages for Robert Jones and Elizabeth registered in Conwy in 1877. In the Sept quarter 1877 Robert Jones married either Elizabeth Williams, or Elizabeth Anne Williams. Reference vol 11b Page 716. Also in the Sept quarter 1877, Robert Jones married Elizabeth Fletcher. Vol 11b page 708. There is a marriage registered in Llanwrst district in the March quarter of 1878. Robert Jones married Elizabeth Lloyd. Vol 11b page 447. There is nothing else on FreeBMD that looks likely for them.
It would be interesting to see how the witnesses to the marriage of John Jones and Annie fit in with his family.
-
AJ I don't know why the place of birth should differ in the Census records for John Jones, it could be that the Parish name was put in the 1891 Census but he put the actual location of Rowen in the 1911 Census
It's interesting but also very frustrating with so many John Jones' and Robert Jones' in the local area but I'm sure that something will turn up
Helig, Robert's age and therefore date of birth differ in the Censuses for 1901 and 1911 and it would make Robert's date of birth as either C1853 or C1855 but there may well be a reason for it. The fact that the 1911 Census shows that they have been married for 33 years is another clue and puts the date of marriage at C1878, a few years before John was born.
As Elizabeth was born in Llandudno the marriage may have taken place there and if so there is a possibility of Church records being available at the Conwy Archives
As you have suggested Isaac may have been married before but he could have been married before the 1837 date when everything had to be registered so I hope that we can find out the names of Robert's parents.
-
The only way I know to establish John Jones' date of birth would be to search the records for the employers he had in Dolgarrog. I am sure their records would have details of his date of birth. They are available in the archives in Conwy per previous posts.
I am still trying to find Robert Jones in earlier census returns but am ties up with medical appointments at the moment. I spent all day yesterday going to see the consultant who is some distance away. Today I am limited due to extreme tiredness. I hope I can get down to it later this week.
I am sure we have Robert Jones' family in the 1891 census and the 1911 census. Not so sure about the 1901 census as they are living in another address. Since they were in Nant y Felin the 1891 and 1911, I should have thought they would be there is 1901 as well. There is a question as to where was Robert Jones in 1891? I aim to look for him in 1861, 1871 and 1881. Also, the 1911 states they had 7 children of whom 1 died. Given they married in c1878, I should have expected to see more children at home with them in 1901. I am unhappy about the changes in birthplace for both Robert Jones and John Jones. There may be an explanation but in my experience it is common for these to differ and I wonder how well the enumerator took these down at times. Could be the enumerator was English and had trouble translating details of people who were Welsh speaking.
-
Thank you both, when I have some time I will go to Conwy archives. If Elizabeth was related to Isaac and Miriam, then she would have to be a Jones. From what I remember from my Nain, I do know that Elizabeth's main language was Welsh and I don't think she could speak much English.
I hope you start to feel better soon Helig
-
I have been trying to establish the situation with regard to Robert Jones, father of John Jones. It isn't easy to put it mildly. As AJ has discovered there are two families with the names of John and Ann Jones who are the potential parents of Robert Jones. It is extremely difficult to determine which ones are the family of Robert Jones, father of John Jones, who we are interested in. I would be interested to know if AJ had any views on this.
There is a WW1 service record for Thomas Owen Jones showing his father to be Robert Jones of Pen y Groes Ffordd, Maenan. The document is dated 1916.
There is an entry in the 1881 census which looks interesting to me:
Caerhun, Plas Ofer.
Robert Jones Head, married age 25, Farm labourer born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, wife age 27, born Llanrhos.
Robert Jones, son, born Caerhun.
The ages of Robert and Elizabeth are similar to those in other years. Elizabeth is shown born Llanrhos which is near to Llandudno. It would also fit with a marriage c1878.
In the 1861 I tend to favour the family of John and Anne Jones as follows:
Caernalach, Caerhun.
John Jones Head, married, age 61, Farmer, born Caerhun.
Anne Jones wife, age 45, born Trefriw.
John Jones son, age 9, born Caerhun.
Robert Jones, son, age 7, born Caerhun.
Elizabeth Jones, daughter, age 5, born Caerhun
Robert Owen, visitor, age 15, born Caerhun.
This brings in the Owen name which appears elsewhere. There is also a link to Trefriw.
There is a large difference in age between John and Anne Jones which suggests to me that John Jones may have been married before.
There is an entry for them in the 1871 census which has Robert Jones age 16. They are living in the same place as the 1861.
It is of interest that in the entry for the 1891 census, Robert Jones was missing from home. There is an entry for Robert Jones age 36 in Caerhun in the same place as his family were previously. This is as follows:
Caernalach (Caemalach?) Caerhun, Robert Jones Head, widr, age 36, Farmer, born Caerhun. The only other people in the household are two servants.
The difficulty with it is he is shown as a widower.
I would appreciate your thoughts before I do any more on this.
I have seen a tree on Ancestry which shows Robert R Jones bc 1854 Caerhun, d 29/07/1916, Pen y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, to be the son of John and Ann Jones. John 1826-1905, Ann Thomas 1827-1913. Robert's wife is Elizabeth Ann Williams, 1854-1920. Elizabeth is shown as born Llandudno and died Maenan (with a query). Their children include John Jones 1881-1916 and Thomas Owen Jones 1894-1944. The tree owner is Emlyn. The trouble is you cannot rely on these being accurate.
-
Hi Helig, you've certainly been very busy with all that info. I haven't had time to digest it all but thought that I'd mention this as you have come across two places of birth for Elizabeth ie Llandudno and Llanrhos.
Strangely both could be correct because the town of Llandudno was built over two Parishes. That's Llandudno and Eglwys Rhos ( Llan Rhos )
Just in case you didn't know it the boundary was roughly down Trinity Square and just north of Trinity Avenue. Llandudno was to the north and Eglwys Rhos to the south.
In 1905 the two Parishes were amalgamated to form Llandudno cum Eglwys Rhos
I was born in Llanduno but where I was born was originally in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos ( Llan Rhos ) hope that that makes some sense
https://www.werelate.org/wiki/Place:Llandudno_cum_Eglwys_Rhos%2C_Caernarvonshire%2C_Wales
-
Thank you for that information, Hugo.
There is another contender for Robert Jones in the 1861 census. They are living in Caerhun and details are as follows:
Garning (??)
Robert Jones Head, married, age 37, ag lab born Llangelynin.
Ann Jones wife, age 36, born Llanfair
Ann Jones, daughter, age 15, born Gyffin
Robert Jones, son, age 8. born Llangelynin
Richard Jones, son, age 5, born Caerhun
John Jones, son, age 2, born Caerhun
William Jones, son, age 4 months, born Caerhun.
There is a grave shown for Robert Jones buried in Llanddoged cemetery. This shows he was born in 1833 and died 27/07/1916. His wife is shown as Elizabeth and he has a daughter by the name of Elizabeth. This looks to be the same Robert Jones which was in the tree on Ancestry. There is a query about it if his birth was in 1833 and not 1854 as it has given. The details are that he was aged 82/3. To add to the confusion, there is a death registered for Robert Jones in July 1916 in Llanwrst RD which shows his age as 63.
My view is that it is the family living of John Jones in Caernalach/Caemalach in Caerhun and later Robert Jones' family living in Nant y Felin, Maenan.
The tree on Ancestry shows David Jones born in Nant y Felin on 03/10/1891. He was a servant in Llangelynin in 1911.
There are some photos of this family on Ancestry which may be of interest.
The only way to establish the facts is to obtain the birth certificate for John Jones which should be possible if his date of birth can be found in the employee records of the works in Dolgarrog. That would give his place of birth and mother's maiden name.
-
Thank you both, it's certainly confusing.
I do know that my great grandfather had a brother called Tommy who fought in WWI
If you look at the wedding certificate, I am sure that John Jones' address is Nant y Felin - it's defiantly something y and it looks like felin after.
That would tie in with Robert and Elizabeth Jones in Maenen Nant Y Felin. By the 1901 census, John would be over 14 and probably working on a farm somewhere.
I have contacted Llandudno registry office and they are looking for his death certificate but they are short staffed at the moment and may take a while.
Hopefully going to make it to Conwy this week, I rang archives and they have some Dolgarrog work's there.
-
I have seen a tree on Ancestry which shows Robert R Jones bc 1854 Caerhun, d 29/07/1916, Pen y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, to be the son of John and Ann Jones. John 1826-1905, Ann Thomas 1827-1913. Robert's wife is Elizabeth Ann Williams, 1854-1920. Elizabeth is shown as born Llandudno and died Maenan (with a query). Their children include John Jones 1881-1916 and Thomas Owen Jones 1894-1944. The tree owner is Emlyn. The trouble is you cannot rely on these being accurate.
This defiantly fits in with my Great Grandfather John's date of birth and death.
In the newspaper reports, it says that Robert Jones attended his son's funeral which was June 1916 so he may have died not long after his son.
I don't know when Elizabeth died, but my Nain who was born 1914 stayed with her when she was a little girl as Anne had to work and she did say she remembered walking up the hill in Trefriw to the cemetery when she died.
-
Just a quick note re Llandudno cum Eglwysrhos. This was a civil parish which, ordinarily, post-1894 would have been administered by a Parish Council. As the civil parish was co-terminus with the Urban District boundary the UDC was given the powers of a Parish Council to undertake certain parochial matters eg appointment of Trustees. The pre-existing Ecclesiastical Parishes of Llanrhos and Llandudno still exist, although Llanrhos has been subsumed into one of the latest Church in Wales ideas and now forms part of the Mission Area of Aberconwy.
The boundary between Llanrhos and Llandudno - which also forms the Diocesan boundary between St Asaph and Bangor - was adjusted in the 1930s to more or less follow the railway line.
The former St Andrew's Mission Church off Trinity Avenue was an outpost of Llanrhos but once Llandudno had built Church of Our Saviour, it was effectively redundant.
-
Just an add on about the Parish boundary in Llandudno. There are still a few boundary stones left in Llandudno. One is in Bodafon Street, another in Trinity Church grounds and some more in the back streets at the side of the Albert Pub
They are simply marked LL P on one side and ER P on the other
https://www.deganwyhistory.co.uk/en/research_articles/parish-boundary-stones/
-
In view of the tragic accident of John Jones there should be some papers on this in his employer's records. These may give more information on him and his family. Also, there would have been an inquest and it is possible to obtain the records of this. I am not sure of the procedure but think records for inquests are closed for 75 years. It is now long after this so you should be able to see them.
-
Thank you all for your input.
I have the news paper article for the inquest, I have tried to upload on here but it won't let me.
I just think it's so interesting that Elizabeth was from LLandudno as all my Mam's family are Conwy Valley and Elizabeth is the first relation I've found who was from Llandudno.
I'm hoping John's death certificate with give an accurate date of birth, and if it does I may be able to find his birth certificate. As soon as i know more I'll post the information.
-
AJ, from memory the entries of death following an inquest are by direction of the Coroner and are noted to that effect. It may help with the Register Office if you mention that the entry followed an inquest. That would enable swift identification of the correct John.
-
I don't think they included the date of birth on death certificates for people who died back in 1916. That has only been shown in more recent years. According to Google, it was shown from 1969.
I wonder if the connection to Isaac and Miriam Jones is on Miriam's line. She was Owens prior to her marriage and she had connections with Gyffin. she lived there is the 1841 and 1861 census. In the 1861 census she states she was born in Llangelynin. I shall attempt to look into this when time permits.
The tree on Ancestry shows Robert Jones married Elizabeth Anne Williams in Conwy Registration District in the September quarter of 1877. Vol 11b Page 716. I don't know if it would help you to post more details from that tree here. Please let me know.
I think we can say for certain that Robert Jones who lived in Pen Y Groes, Ffordd Maenan, Llanwrst, and who died in July 1916, is the father of John Jones. The basis for this is his is given as the father of Thomas Owen Jones on the WW1 sevice papers and his address is as above. His address is also shown the grave for him in Llanddoged. Why was he buried in Llanddoged? It suggests there is a family connection with that place.
Freereg has a baptism for a Robert Jones in Llanddoged on 10/12/1854, son of John and Grace Jones of Tan y Celyn, carpenter. It is worth bearing in mind.
There is a baptism for Elizabeth Anne Williams in St Mary and All Saints, Conwy, on 26/03/1851. She was the daughter of Thomas and Isabella Williams. Again, it is worth noting as a possible for Elizabeth, Robert's wife. It shows she is older than Robert and it could be she is a bit older than she claimed when they filled in the census.
-
There is a baptism for Elizabeth Anne Williams in St Mary and All Saints, Conwy, on 26/03/1851. She was the daughter of Thomas and Isabella Williams. Again, it is worth noting as a possible for Elizabeth, Robert's wife. It shows she is older than Robert and it could be she is a bit older than she claimed when they filled in the census.
Helig, it's only just an observation but I don't think that this Elizabeth is John Jones' mother. First of all the Census records show that she wasn't born until at least 1953. I know that info in the Census should only be taken as a guide but if she was born in Llandudno or even Llanrhos then the Baptism would either be in St Tudno's or St Hilary's Churches.
I know that Conwy Archives has certain Baptism records there because I found my own Baptism record at the Archives
If AJ looks at them then she might find the answer and other info too
-
I posted this as a possible for his mother and agree that the records for Llandudno and Llanrhos need to be examined in order to see if there is an Elizabeth Anne Williams baptised there. I note there is a birth registered in Conwy RD in the March quarter of 1854 for Elizabeth Ann Williams. The only other birth registration for a lady of that name is the one in Conwy RD in the March quarter of 1851.
I do think John Jones was born in 1881, so it is feasible that lady baptised in Conwy could be his mother.
-
There is an Elizabeth Williams shown on census returns in Llandudno. Her parents are Robert Williams and Eleanor (Ellen) Hughes. In the 1861 census she is aged 8 and living in Llandudno with her family. The census shows South Part of Llandudno parish division but I cannot make out the residence. The next one is Pentreisaf.
There are 14 Family Trees for her on Ancestry and these show she died in 1920 in Llanwrst, others have she died in Maenan. Some are clearly incorrect.
-
Helig, I used Free Cen and the 1861 Census showed the same details as you found:-
Robert Williams aged 47 born Llanrhos
Ellen Williams (wife ) aged 48 born Chester
Elizabeth Williams Daughter aged 8 born Llandudno
The address is Ty Hen (old house ) from the description on your findings it must have been on the flat land of Llandudno near the Parish boundary
-
Thank you all so much.
I was wondering if Miriam and Isaac actually registered the births of their children. Do we know if there is a full list of the children? What i don't inderstand is my nain definatly said that one of her nains sold tea on the Orme, that is how the search statrted because I read Miriam's story years later. Perhaps Elizabeth was one of the children they took in or may have worked with her,
It's a shame that the death certificate won't have the date of birth, I gave them lots of information such as parents, wife, address place of death and reason, they did say there were incredabily busy
-
Stick with it AJ and I'm sure that you'll solve this. I would just like to add this to all the info you have collected and it's this. Helig found out the marriage between Isaac and Miriam was in 1861. We believe that Miriam was Miriam Owens who lived in Pen Y Mynydd Isaf Farm ( aka Pink Farm on the Great Orme.
Pink Farm also sold refreshments so Miriam would have been involved there as well as in her own place at the Gogarth Tea Rooms on the Marine Drive
From 1837 it was the law for the registration of births , marriages and deaths so I think that Isaac and Miriam would have registered them and the Conwy Archives should have the Church records there. I bet someone, somewhere has a full list of the children but the question is where is the list?
-
I like the picture of Pink Farm and used to do a walk through there when I lived in Llandudno. I had a number of walks on the Great Orme that I did regularly. My mother spoke of it doing teas and refreshments.
I have had a quick look at Miriam Owens she is proving quite difficult to track back. The claim they had 15 children is a bit suspect as far as I am concerned. Would one of the local historians be able to assist with this? What appears to be their first child, Ellen born 1860, was registered under the name of Owens. Could there be other children registered under that name? I shall pursue this but am not optimistic about being successful with it. I should think the local archives would have some information on them.
I found this which covers their story if you scroll down to The Family of Cave Dwellers.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/secret-llandudno-history-unknown-facts-14239141
-
There are some lovely walks by Pink Farm Helig and you can just make out the "Teas" on the room of the building
It would be so much easier to do this search for AJ if we knew that someone had already completed a family tree for Isaac and Miriam. I've had a good go on the Free Reg sites and have had a few red herrings that can't be confirmed.
I think like yourself that the answers lie in the Archives and a visit there may get the answers. If AJ is unable to visit the Archives I'll try and go there myself but I don't know when I'll be able to do so
-
Yes, this is a tricky one to track so as to be able to establish the facts for certain.
I have looked at the 1861 census for a William Owen(s) at Wyddfyd where Miriam said she was living in the marriage certificate. This shows that Wyddfyd Farm has a family headed by John Williams living there. He is a farmer of 40 acres born Llandudno. There is then Penymynydd Ucha which has Richard Davies at the head. He is a Farmer of 27 acres and born Llandudno. The next one is Penymnydd Isa which has William Owen head of the family. He is a farmer of 30 acres born Llandudno. The household comprises:
William Owen, head, married, age 53, Farmer of 30 acres born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owen, wife, age 57, born Llandudno.
Mary A Owen, daughter, age 15, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owen, daughter, age 13, born Llandudno
Jane Owen, age 9, daughter, born Llandudno
Margaret Owen, age 6, daughter, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Williams, age 19, servant. born Eglwys Rhos
Evan Jones, age 18, Carter, born Eglwys Rhos.
In the 1851 census the family is shown as Owens and they are living in Penymynydd. It seesm to be the same family as it is as follows:
William Owens, head, married, age 42, Farmer born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owens, wife, age 41, born Llandudno
Mary Owens, daughter, age 5, born Llandudno
Elizabeth Owens, daughter, age 3, born Llandudno
David Williams servant age 26, ag lab, born Llangwstenin
Catherine Jones, servant, age 24, born Denbigh Llandrillo
Susanna Davies visitor, age 70, born Denbigh Llandrillo
In this census the residence before this is the Telegraph Station. The one after it is the vicarage.
Hugo, I wonder if you would be able to identify this place as what we now know as Pink Farm. Do you have any idea when they started doing teas etc? William would be of an age to be Miriam's father but the name is Owen, not Owens.
I seem to think Miriam was born c1831 so it will be more difficult to prove anything for her. I cannot find a baptism but in the census returns she shows she was born in a number of different places.
-
I think Pink Farm was known as Penymynydd Inn at one time and later (by 1939) was Pink Farm Inn.
Penymynydd Ucha was the dwelling nearest the tram line and Penymynydd Isaf was the one further north.
Just a guess but I wonder if it became confusing with two Penymynydds in close proximity so the Ucha one became generally known as Pink Farm. "Inn" suggests refreshment was provided and at some stage the alcohol licence was either surrendered or revoked and teas provided instead.
-
By coincidence I was at the Pink Farm ( Penymynydd Isaf ) today with a friend whose ancestors were the Owen family of the 1800's.
It did indeed serve alcohol on the premises and my friend claimed to have an old photo of the "bar" there, I'll try and get a copy of it and post it on here.
It's the Isaf Farm that is the Pink Farm and we were looking at the Pink Farm sign which is near the front garden gate The name Penymynydd Isaf couldn't be seen there
Strangely enough, in the rent book of the Gloddaeth Estate in the 1800's both farms are just called Pen y mynydd.
-
There is an entry for William Owen in the Probate Registry. He is shown as being of Penymynydd and a Farmer. He died on 28 April 1894 and probate was granted to Mary Anne Jones (wife of Edwin Jones) and Jane Roberts (wife of Robert Roberts). Effects: ?765 16s 6d.
In the 1871 census William Owen is still living in Penymynydd Isa and the household is as follows:
William Owen age 65 Farmer
Elizabeth Owen age 61
Mary A Owen daughter age 27
Jane Owen daughter age 19
Edwin Jones servant age 24
Robert Jones servant age 18.
All born Llandudno.
William Owen is still living there in the 1891 census. His wife has predeceased him. In this the next place along is The Old Rectory. This takes me back to the Old Rectory Tea Gardens which I loved to visit years ago.
-
I hope that the first two photos bring back some nice memories for you Helig. I was at the Pink Farm on Saturday with a friend whose ancestors were the Owen Family.
The Old Rectory is the next neighbour to Penymynyss Isaf as you head north. I bet that you went on the public footpath past Ffynnon Powell to get to the Old Rectory.
The third photo is how the Old Rectory looks now unfortunately
-
Thank you both for all your work, have found John Jone's death certificate and I'm going to Llandudno to pick it up tomorrow, fingers crossed there may be more evidence. I am hoping to go to Conwy next week to look at Dolgarrog records.
-
Thank you for those photos Hugo. I loved to visit the tea gardens and remember going there as young as about 3 years of age. I won't say what year that would have been. I think they had donkeys in one of the fields as I used to like to stroke them and I think I fed them too. Is it still owned by the doctor who bought it when the tea gardens closed down?
-
Nothing wrong with your memory Helig because there were certainly Donkeys in that field. There's also a public footpath that goes through that field and it joins up with the the zig zag road
I don't know who owns it now though
-
Thank you both for all your work, have found John Jone's death certificate and I'm going to Llandudno to pick it up tomorrow, fingers crossed there may be more evidence. I am hoping to go to Conwy next week to look at Dolgarrog records.
Good luck in the Archives AJ, The staff there are very helpful and there's a lot of info held there which may be useful for you
-
Just a thought but most archives offer a service for their assistants to do research for people. I don't know if this is available in Conwy but most places have it. There is a charge but some do a certain amount , say one hour, without a charge. It may be worth enquiring.
-
I think that the Conwy Archives do a service like you have described Helig but I don't know the details.
-
Evening Helig and Hugo
Picked up death certificate, as you said, no date of birth.
Spent the day in Conwy Archives
Went through Dolgarrog Aluminium records - employment records only go as far back as 1924, no meeting minutes
I went therough the LLandudno Cottage Hospital records however 1916- 1923 are missing
Accessed all the family tree website to try and find birth certificates, no luck
I'm now going to contact BCUHB to see if I can Access my hen Taid's medical records as the archivist thinks they should have been kept somewhere, it could have his birth on that.
Also going to contact coroner's office to see if i can access full report in case birth on that.
I did find Miriam Ogof's obituary, died July 1910 it said that she was 78 and not as reported in some newspapers as 92. She died at home, It also said she came from Gyffin
-
I am sorry that your trip to the archives proved to be a waste of time, AJ. I don't think they keep medical records for very long these days but you might be lucky..
Miriam Owens is proving to be difficult to track back to her baptism. The census returns give differing ages and places of birth for her.
1841, age 10, born in same county. (Living in Gyffin).
1851, age 21, born in Llangelynin. (Living in Gyffin).
1861, age 30, born Llangelynin (living in Bodidda).
1871, age 38, born Llangelynin. Married to Isaac and living in Llandudno.
1881. age 50, born Llanelian, Denbighshire.
1891, age 66, born Llangelynin.
1901, age 79, born Carnarvon, Conwy.
Death in September 1910 and her age recorded as 77 years.
In the 1841 census she is living in the household of Elinor Hughes, age 50, Elinor Owenes age 10 and Elisabeth Owenes age 7.
-
I was looking at the Baptism records for another forum member some years ago. It was the Gyffin Register and about the same period as Miriam so they should have Miriam's record there
They may also have the records for Robert Jones at Rowen and Elizabeth Williams at Llandudno
I'll try and go to the Archives next week if I can and will post something on here
-
I hope you have some success Hugo.
For reasons best known to itself Ancestry has thrown up another entry for Miriam Owen in the 1851 census. This is one I haven't seen before and looks very interesting. The household is:
John Owen, head, age 34, married, Fowl Dealer, born Dwygyfylchi
Jane Owen, wife, age 33, born Pentrefoelas, Denbighshire.
Keturah Owen, daughter, age 5, born Gyffin
Jeremiah Owen, son, age under 11 months, born Gyffin
Miriam Owen, sister, unmarried, age 20, general servant, born Gyffin.
They are all stated to be living in Gyffin village in the same household.
One reason I say this is interesting is that in a later census in 1861, Miriam Owen states she is a Fowl Dealer.
In the 1861 census John Owen and family (plus numerous servants) are living in 7 Mostyn St, Llandudno. John Owen is a grocer.
In the 1871 census John Owen and family are living in 8 Mostyn St and John is now a Game Dealer.
There is a baptism for John Owen in Dwygyfylchi on 10th March 1816 (born 27th February). He was the son of William Owen and Eleanor Hughes, abode: Pentre Felin. William Owen was a Blacksmith.
This fits with Miriam's father being William Owen, Blacksmith, per the marriage certificate. Also, in the 1841 census, Miriam is living with Elinor Owen who was her mother by the look of it.
I note the names of the children of John and Eleanor are very similar to those of Isaac Jones and Miriam.
For the first time a Family Tree has appeared for Miriam Owens. This states she was the daughter of William Owens bLiverpool (c1791-1877) and Eleanor Hughes (c1791-). Miriam is shown to have been born/baptised on 1 August 1830 in Llangelynin. The tree belongs to David Smith. There are a number of photos with this tree.
To be continued...
-
That is a very interesting find indeed Helig and Miriam's age fits in with the age that AJ found. That puts Miriam's age at about 30 when she married Isaac so she may have had all those children that she was claimed to have had.
Now with both Robert and Elizabeth being born around 1853 (ish) Miriam must have been the Nain of John and not a G Nain. I have found a couple of possibilities for Robert but need to check some records before posting them on here
Cambrian is the expert on Parishes etc and Robert who was born in Rowen his records could be under Caerhun, Llangelynin or even Gyffin so we'll have to see that info I can get from the Archives
-
Thank you both.
I am hoping to get to the archives again next week but have a lot on, the activists were so helpful, they were brilliant.
I am hoping if i can get the coroner's report i may get a birth, then find a birth certificate which will confirm mother.
-
There is a marriage of William Owens to Elinor Hughes in Dwygyfylchi on 10/09/1814. William was a bachelor and Elinor a spinster. Both of this parish.
One tree on Ancestry has Isaac Jones and Miriam with 12 chiklren.
It is going to be hard to link this family to that of AJ.
-
It will be difficult as you say Helig but the link could be established when we see Robert Jones' Baptism or marriage records. I've seen a Baptism for a Robert Jones on 25th Sept 1853, father Isaac Jones occupation sailor and mother Jane Jones. The Baptism was at St Hilary's Church Llanrhos and they lived at Towyn ( Should be Tywyn? )
The couple were married in Wrexham on the 23rd February 1850. I cannot trace Jane Jones' death simply because there are so many Jane Jones' in Wales
It could all be a red herring but we'll have to wait and see
-
My best guess is that if Rowen is Robert's place of birth, the ecclesiastical parish would be Caerhun. However, some of the extremities of the geographical area of "Rowen" may well be in other adjacent parishes. I have found this to be an issue in many rural areas where boundaries follow vague lines (eg field boundaries) rather than be based on defined settlements. People in some cases used the nearest hamlet or village name rather than the parish name as their address.
-
That's correct Cambrian and it's what makes this search both difficult but interesting. If we can find Robert's Baptism record it may give us the answer that AJ is looking for.
On a separate matter you mentioned Llangelynin previously and I went to both the old and new Church some years ago. The new Church is privately owned but people can visit family graves there. I had a nice chat with the owner of the new Church and also had a look inside it.. It's built in the Parish of Llangelynin and I asked him if he knew why it was built in that particular area and his understanding was that the village of Rowen was expected to expand down the valley to the church but of course that never happened
-
I've been making a lot of searches on free sites but nothing I could find gave me the proof about the Rowen and Llandudno connections so I sent off for the marriage certificate of Robert Jones and Elizabeth Williams and it arrived today:-
The marriage took place on the 22nd September 1977 Robert Jones was aged 23 and his father was John Jones. Robert was living at Ffrith Y Ddwyfrwd Rowen Caerhun
Now that address is above Rowen and just off the old Roman Road. As Cambrian has said it is abutting Llangelynin and may or may not at one time been in the Parish of Llangelynin
Elizabeth Williams was aged 24 when she married and her father was Robert Williams a farmer. Her address was Penrhyn Felin Wynt Eglwysrhos. I can't be certain of that location but in English Felin Wynt means wind mill. Now there are two windmills that I know are in the old Parish of Eglwysrhos and they are the one in Glanwyddan and the other near Penrhynside and that sometimes is called the Hen Dwr
It doesn't confirm AJ's connection with Isac and Miriam but it could be just one step away from it
http://images.portalimages.com/12291/24876053/brochure/s1/635440646940297382/36dbd780aacb5d55537b01e10e7dbb2f8ba2268e.pdf
https://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=12098
-
Hugo - just to say that Felin Wynt Eglwysrhos would seem to be Hen Dwr above Penrhynside. The one in Glanwydden was in Llangwstennin Parish. Having said that, the Eglwysrhos one was actually just inside the boundary of Llandudno Parish!
One puzzle though is that Ken Dibble's book does not record any family called Williams at Hen Dwr at the relevant period.
-
Thanks very much for your comments Cambrian, I had forgotten that Glanwydden was in the Llangwstennin Parish. So Penrhyn Felin Wynt AKA Yr Hen Dwr must be the correct address for Elizabeth Williams and her father Robert
I can't say anything about Ken Dibbles book but we must accept Penrhyn Felin Wynt as being their abode in 1877. Just as an add on there was an old Mill House attached to the tower but this was demolished when the tower was renovated
In the Gloddaeth Estate rent books there are two entries for a Robert Williams but they are for two other smallholdings. The Census' for 1871 and 1881 may just confirm what we already know. I was surprised when you said that Hen Dwr was in the old Llandudno Parish as the last Parish stone I have seen was in the northern section of Bodafon Street just about 100 yards from the promenade and I thought that the whole of Craig Y Don was in Eglwysrhos
Just recapping on what we have found so far, now that we have found John Jones and his wife at Rowen and Robert Williams and his wife at Penrhyn Felin Wynt you would think that the next generation must be Isaac or Miriam to complete AJ's search
I don't know what you or others think but in my humble opinion because of the estimated ages of John Jones and Robert Williams Miriam cannot be the mother of any of them
This means that Isaac must be the connection and we can therefore rule out Robert Williams because of his surname so that leaves just John and the two so far unnamed wives. Has anyone got any ideas on this?
-
Hugo, I take your point re boundary. For some reason - possibly Mostyn influence - there is an odd narrow strip of Llandudno Parish which extends along the seafront to link with an almost detached portion of that parish around Bodafon/Nantygamar and Little Orme.
Not sure if you recall in the 1970s, there were two of the boundary stones set together at right-angles at the edge of the grass bed opposite the Marine Hotel. Some bright spark in Aberconwy BC destroyed one for no good reason but fortunately the other was saved and as far as I know is still there. The right angle of the stones indicated the route of the boundary of the parishes along the sea front. Town side was Eglwysrhos but the seaward site was Llandudno! This all goes to explain why Mostyn have their involvement with Bodafon fields etc and were lessors of the Little Orme Quarry. What is now Craig y Don was part of the Peers Williams holding which was from Clarence Road to Nant y Gamar Road. General Peers Williams lived in a house called "Craig y Don" near Beaumaris hence the origin of the name in Llandudno. Sorry I have wondered from the topic a bit!
Checked Census for 1871 and shows a family called Evans in the "Old Windmill" which seems to confirm what is in Dibble's book.
-
Thank you Hugo for going to all this trouble in the quest to find a family connection with Isaac and Miriam Jones. I have found what appears to be the right family for John Jones in the 1861 census. They are living in Llangelynin at Ffrith y Ddwyfrwd. The last word is quite hard to decipher in the census.
John Jones is aged 36 and born Caerhun. His wife, Ann, is aged 34 and born Caerhun. They have 5 children including Robert, age 7.
I think there is a tree for this family on Ancestry. I will look again as I am pressed for time now. Could it be that one of the children married into Isaac Jones's family?
-
Thanks Cambrian for sharing all that information with the forum. I've lived in the area all my life and never knew where the Parish boundary was. As a result of what you have said I found a link and it's posted below. It shows the Llandudno boundary as you have described and the boundary is really weird, Lord Mostyn was a sly old devil.
You can also enlarge the map to see more detail but I can't make out Yr Hen Dwr on it. I don't remember those parish boundary stones opposite the Marine Hotel but now I'll go and have a look for then when I am able to
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno
-
You're welcome Helig and thank you for all your hard work helping AJ out, it was thanks to your efforts that I was able to get the certificates. It still leaves more questions than answers because I think that it rules out John or Ann Jones as being the children of Isaac or Miriam.
At the moment it only leaves Robert Williams' wife as a possibility but we'll have to wait and see what develops next. Watch this space as they say!
-
There is a marriage for John Jones in Caerhun on 27 January 1849. The details are:
John Jones, full age, labourer, bachelor, abode Roe, father Robert Jones, labourer.
Ann Thomas, full age, spinster, abode Roe, father Hugh Thomas, labourer.
Witnesses were@ David Jones and David Parry. Bride and groom made their mark.
The family I found in the 1861 census in Llangelynin, included Robert Jones, Lodger, widower (?) age 83, formerly ag lab, born Dwygyfylchi.
It appears that this Robert Jones was the father of John Jones b 1825.
In the 1871 census John and Anne Jones are living at the same address in Llangelynin. This time Anne is shown as being born in Gyffin.
In the 1881 census John and Anne Jones are living in Pant yr Afon in Caerhun. Anne is shown as born Gyffin there too.
1891 census has them in Rowen, living in Ty Hen and once again, Anne is shown as born Gyffin. They remain there in the 1901 census.
There are Family Trees for them on Ancestry. One of them has John Jones death in 9 July 1905 in Ty Hen, Rowen. Both John and Ann Jones were buried in Llangelynin cemetery.
Robert Jones b1779 was buried in Caerhun on 10 February 1863, age 83 and his abode was Ffridd Y Ddwyffrwd.
I don't know which direction to head in next. Would someone like to suggest something?
-
Hugo - if you have a look at the 19th C Mapsnls for the area, the boundary runs a few yards SE of the Old Tower. It also seems to pass through the middle of Penyffordd Farmhouse!
-
Thanks Cambria, I'll have a look at that map as soon as I can
Helig, you have found so much info it's time to have a break and digest all the info. Local knowledge also comes in handy and although Anne Thomas has Gyffin as her birth place in a couple of those Census' it might just refer to the Parish of Gyffin which covered a large area in those old days
Because of the details you found I put some info in to a Baptism free search and came up with the details below:-
Now that's no proof that she's the Anne that you found but it's just food for thought
Field
(only fields with a value are shown) Value
County Caernarfonshire
Place (Links to more information) Gyffin
Church name (Links to more information) St Benedict
Register type (Links to more information) Parish Register
Baptism date 01 Jul 1783
Person forename Anne
Person sex F
Father forename Robert
Mother forename Catherine
Father surname THOMAS
Mother surname JONES
Transcribed by John Roberts
File line number 401
Report an Error in this Data
-
I just had a thought about Pant Yr afon in the 1881 Census and although it said Caerhun I remembered seeing a property called Pant Yr Afon in Rowen. Have a search for it in this link and it looks like a really nice property. I wonder if this is the house they lived in
http://www.iwanmwilliams.info/images/properties/LL1494.Pant%20yr%20Afon.pdf
-
Thank you all for all your hard work, I think i have to agree with Hugo, I think looking at the wedding dates it would be impossible to link Elizabeth with Miriam. My Nain may have been referring to the pink cottage when she said she sold teas on the Orme, Elizabeth may have just worked there and the story has become confused over the years. Unfortunately, My Nain passed in 1980 and Annie and John Jones' other daughters died years ago so it's a difficult line to follow. Thank you all so much for your help it has been so exciting
-
AJ, it is difficult finding the link to Isaac and Miriam but when stories are passed down in the family there is usually no paper trail to follow.
In those old days when parents had children they would give them family names from their parents or siblings and that's why there are so many John Jones' and Robert Jones' but one name interested me;-
Helig has done a great deal of research and I've been having a look through all the postings and one name stands out. The spelling is different but in those old days a lot of people couldn't read or write. Have a look at the info below and see what you think.
Pg 8 25th Aug 2023 in the 1871 Census Isaac and Miriam have a daughter Kauturah aged 9 born C 1862
Pg 13 17th Nov 2023 in the 1851 Census for Miriam Owen there is a Katurah Owen aged 5 born C 1846
It may be the connection to Isaac and Miriam but see what you or anyone else thinks
-
OOPS I've done a typo error. :-[
The name at Pg 13 should be Keturah Owen and she appears to be Miriam's niece
-
After thinking about it I don't think that the link is Keturah but I'll try and see what I can find in the Conwy Archives next week
-
Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. One thing that has struck me is the frequency of the places of Llangelynin, Gyffin and Rowen appearing in the searches. Miriam Owen(s) stated she came from Llangelynin and Gyffin depending on which census you see. Many of these other families had strong connections to these places too. I wonder whether a search of the parish registers might help and make us able to link people up. One problem will be the fact that there were many non conformist chapels in these areas. Most of their registers have been lost, so there is no hope of finding people this way.
I have noticed a similarity in the names of children in some of the families. Isaac and Miriam Jones used quite unusual names for their children at times. These seem to appear in some of the other families which may indicate a connection. It is a pity that there isn't a definitive family tree for Isaac and Miriam Jones. It is about time someone did this as they are such a prominent couple in the history of Llandudno.
-
Helig, the Census records are just a guide but I've seen that happen before when the person has a different address. Local knowledge comes in handy sometimes but Cambrian is the expert on Parishes etc
It seems that the link may be in those areas but where?
I can't find a definite family tree for Isaac and Miriam but it would have been very handy indeed. What I have just done is to use Free Reg as a search engine and put in these details Surname Jones dates 1859 to 1871, Caernarfonshire then Llandudno and finally Baptisms
82 Baptism records came up and I must admit to packing up on the 31st search and just doing a few random ones after. However I did find about 4 for Isaac and Miriam Rebecca, John, Keturah and Isaac. I'm sure that there will be others too
Also two Baptisms that interested me were both on the 24th December 1860 for Isaac Robert and Catherine Mary Jones the father was Isaac Jones and the mother was Mary Jones. No proof whatsoever but is this the Isaac we are looking for, are these children the first set of twins and did Mary die soon after because Isaac married Miriam in 1861? Food for thought?
-
I had a look at the rest of the Baptisms and found two on the 23rd September 1867. One was for Martha and the other was for Mary. The parents were Isaac and Miriam Jones
Could these two be the second pair of twins?
Another one I found was on the 6th May 1865 and was for Ann Ellen and her parents were Isaac Jones and Mary
Now from my last posting and comments about Mary, this confirms that she was still alive and had children with Isaac Jones
What we don't know is, is this the same Isaac we are looking for?
The records I looked at don't show their address or Mary's surname and the only way to solve it is if the original Baptism record shows those details.
At the moment it's a mystery, what was going on then?
-
From memory, Anglican baptism registers do not usually record the mother's maiden name unless the child was "illegitimate" and only the mother registered, or the child was born of unwedded parents in which case both were entered. Not sure what the practice was in other denominations.
-
There is one matter which disagrees with your theory about Isaac Jones being married before he married Miriam, that is he states he is a bachelor on the marriage certificate in 1861. He married Miriam showing that, plus he was a Fisherman living in Gogarth Wydfyd. His father was Hugh Jones, sawyer.
I agree that having been born c1808-1813, Isaac was likely to have been married before but cannot find anything for him such as an earlier marriage.
I seem to remember that when I was searching for Isaac, there was another Isaac Jones around at that time, that is unless he lead a double life.
The whole situation with Isaac and Miriam needs quite a bit of research to establish the facts surrounding them. I am surprised a local historian hasn't done a study of them.
Re the church records, it varies from church to church. I have seen the mother's maiden name entered in the baptism register in some places. Some of my ancestors from Ysceifiog, who are in the baptism records there, have the mother's maiden name, plus her parents' names and where she originated from entered in the record. That was back in the 18th century. It makes it so much easier for genealogy many years later.
-
You're spot on Helig, there were two Isaac Jones' in Llandudno according to the 1861 Census. The second Isaac married Mary Jones in Bangor on the 10th Jan 1844 and in the 1861 Census they had two children, Mary who was born in Conway and Isaac RobT who was born in Liverpool. They and their other children can be ruled out of the search
-
I have been following this search for several months now and am interested in the locations mentioned around Rowen, Llangelynin and Llangernyw area and interesting names being thrown up.
In early 2019 you all kindly did a lot of research, on this site into my Nain's origins, Catherine Jane Williams born 25 Oct1883. Heading was her parents, Robert Williams/ Sarah Ellen Evans, married17 Jan 1880 in Conway.
I am sure being an area like this they must have have all lived close to each other.
-
Yes, I am sure they were related in some way as these were small villages and close communities. It would be good to do a place search of the census returns for a couple of years, say 1851, 1861. This might throw up some clues about the families around those places at that time. I might tackle this but not right now.
-
I came across these old prints today and the first one appears to be the Marine Drive in West Shore and the Gogarth Tea rooms is in the foreground. I don't know the date of the photo but it was prior to those large houses being built nearby.
On the hillside is another old cottage and it may be the one that is still there at the top of Pen Y Ffordd Goch
The second print is Gogarth Tea rooms looking at it from the West Shore side and that lady in the doorway must be Miriam Jones
-
I was looking online at Free Cen for 1861 and I saw a Census record that had a Robert Williams with a daughter Elizabeth then aged 8 together with Robert's wife Ellen and their four other children
I have no proof whatsoever that this is the Elizabeth that married Robert Jones in 1877. Her age fits but her father's occupation was listed as a sawyer.
What I was interested in was their address Ty Hen, it must have been in Llandudno but I have never heard of it before. I read Chris Draper's book and he said that originally there were two properties at the old windmill above Nant Y Gamar. Felin Wynt being one but he didn't mention what the other one was called.
Cambrian, I know that you are good on this type of research, have you any idea where Ty Hen once was?
-
Evening Hugo.
Yes, managed to find Ty Hen. It was on the lane leading from Penrhyn Hill towards the old quarries on the Little Orme. The site was on the right hand side about half way to Pentre Isaf.
Oddly this area was in the parish of Llandudno as presumably Mostyn wanted to keep some control over the mineral potential.
-
Thanks Cambrian, that's very much appreciated. I've walked past the place where Ty Hen once was but it must have been demolished and the site incorporated into the Penrhyn Bay housing estate
I couldn't find the pair of them in the FREE CEN for 1871 but will try again when I next go to the Library as I can get more info there
-
I had a look at an old map and saw Ty Hen on it exactly as you described Cambrian. In fact I was in the area yesterday and thought that I'd have a look where it once was.
Unfortunately I had forgotten that it was on a track full of potholesso when I drove down the lane. I was in for a nasty shock but everything on the car is ok unlike the lady who lives at the end of the lane.
When I spoke to her yesterday there was a repair vehicle outside her house as the car's axle had gone when she hit a deep pothole!
Next time I go I'll be walking on that lane :)
-
AJ, I called at Nant Y Felin Maenan yesterday and parked my car by the old Corn Mill. I was lucky enough to meet a charming lady called Anthea who had lived in the area for 70 years and knew the history of the area. The name Nant Y Felin is given to this area which is a delightful steep sided wooded valley with a stream running down the valley and it eventually flows in to the River Conwy. She lived in a property nearby and had named it aptly Nant Y Felin.
Robert and his son John would have lived in the workmens cottages which were further up the hill but were sadly demolished many years ago and there is no trace of them now although Anthea did say that there may still be a gable end still visible. I did go up the hill and across an old wooden bridge but couldn't see any sign of the ruin.
Now your relatives lived there at the same time and would have known the Miller who was called John Vaughan. He was a monoglot Welshman from Llanefydd The reason I mention it is because John Vaughan was the Great Grandfather of another forum member DVT.
Another thing Anthea mentioned was that the Corn Mill was just a working place and John Vaughan lived in the nearby Mill house, the one with the post box outside. This cottage was also the last Post Office in Maenan
AJ, I'm sorry that we could not find the link from John Jones to Isaac and Miriam Jones Yr Ogof
but when things like that have been mentioned then there is usually truth in the stories but keep searching and I wish you the best of luck
I still have two copies of marriage certificates that you are welcome to have and if you want them please send me a PM and I can either post them or drop them off somewhere.
-
Nant Y Felin Maenan
-
God evening,
Thank you all for everything.Sorry i haven't been on line in ages, I have started a new job and it's been non stop.
I have a holiday at the end of May so i will look at the family history sites in the library.
I was speaking to my mam , and she said when my Nain was a little girl she used to visit an Aunty ( John Jones side of the family) who had a collage on Penrhyn side, she thinks its was somewhere up Penrhyn hill
-
Hi AJ, it's good to hear from you again and good luck with your new job.
Something you may find helpful if you go to the Conwy Archives are books by Kenneth Dibble. He wrote a series of booklets about and the Little Orme, Bodafon and Nant Y Gamar. They name the houses and people who have lived there so you may find your relatives name and where they lived.The Archives also has Burial Indexes and they may help to locate John Jones' grave.
You'll find the staff there very helpful and you can just tell them what you're looking for and they will help to find it for you.
-
Evening,
I will look out for his books. I should have twigged that Nany y Felin was an area rather than a house.
Thank you all again
-
Hi AJ, I've just reread my last post and the first booklet should have read Penrhynside and Rhiwledyn ( Little Orme ) and that may be the one to look at in order to find your relative.
Nant Y Felin is a lovely area even if the road is very narrow and steep and the lady I saw there has now called her home Nant Y Felin which is quite apt
-
Thank you Hugo, I will see if there are copies in the library.