Three Towns Forum
Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: dwsi on February 22, 2011, 08:42:27 pm
-
How many members of this forum are aware that there is a referendum on the 3rd of March? This referendum is about giving more powers to the Welsh Assembly
-
Dwsi! :o The referendum is NOT about giving more powers to the Welsh Assembly - its is about giving WAG the ability to pass laws relating to the areas it already has control over WITHOUT the need to have the law approved by the London Parliament.
$wales
-
What's the forums members' views on this?
it'll be interesting to see what are peoples views on this
-
I shall be voting YES, naturally. The idea that we need to go cap in hand to another country's parliament to get our laws approved as at present is ridiculous. What do you think, Dwsi?
-
I shall be voting YES, naturally. The idea that we need to go cap in hand to another country's parliament to get our laws approved as at present is ridiculous. What do you think, Dwsi?
Snap $wales
The reason I've started this thread was to see what English born members have to say on this topic
-
we've had no booklet through the letterbox yet about it, I suspect there will be a low turnout for this referendum, I'm currently in the yes camp, seems sensible to me (born in Coventry, but I've loved Llandudno and Wales since I was a lad in the Sixties!) Cymru am byth
$welsh$
-
You should have had a blue booklet through the post from the electoral commission. because there is no official 'no' campaign there can't be an official 'yes' campaign. the result of this is no proper debate.
-
we had the voting cards around a month ago, but that's all, anyone else had the booklet?
-
The idea that we need to go cap in hand to another country's parliament to get our laws approved as at present is ridiculous.
Aren't we all part of the UK, then? ))*
-
I don't recall any vote ever taking place as to whether Wales wished to join the UK?
-
I think that was down to an Irishman... Henry VIII, IIRC Not big on democracy, I suspect.
-
A YES vote will just mean a partial repealing of the Laws in Wales Acts 1535 and 1542. Those were also the Acts, of course, that made the use of Welsh in any official capacity illegal and barred any Welsh speaker from holding any public office.
-
I'm English born...but often wish I wasn't.
I have had little or no information to base my decision on.
So I shall vote NO. Just to annoy Dave and cancel his vote out.
Then I'll ask my wife to do likewise, just to annoy DWSI. L0L L0L L0L
-
_))*
-
I think that was down to an Irishman... Henry VIII, IIRC Not big on democracy, I suspect.
The Tudors were of Welsh decent Ian........but I expect you actually knew this all along. :D $wales
Some say the Welsh were actually conquered from within. $uk
-
So I shall vote NO. Just to annoy Dave and cancel his vote out.
Then I'll ask my wife to do likewise, just to annoy DWSI. L0L L0L L0L
yes but you've forgotten that me and er indoors will vote yes, which will cancel your two votes
meaning that Dave and Dwsi's votes will count D)
The conclusion of that is that the 4 of us might as well not bother voting and go for a drink instead ZXZ
Is'nt democracy a wonderful thing _))*
-
The Tudors were of Welsh decent Ian........but I expect you actually knew this all alon
:twoface:
How well you're getting to know me...
_))* _))* _))*
-
The Druid gives his thoughts on the Referendum tomorrow...
I will be voting 'yes' for four main reasons:
1) No matter which party (or parties) are in power in Westminster, UK-wide one-size-fits-all legislation will by definition not be equally optimum for all parts of the United Kingdom. Accordingly the Welsh Assembly is the ideal vehicle for developing and implementing differentiated policies which are specific to the needs of Wales alone. The referendum on March 3rd merely allows for the Assembly to be able to pass laws in the areas it already has competence quicker.
2) I fully subscribe to the principle that laws which exclusively apply to one region are decided exclusively within that region. During the previous Labour administration in Westminster we all became accustomed to the sight of legislation which exclusively affected England (and in some cases England and Wales) only being passed due to the support of Scottish Labour MPs representing constituencies which would be entirely unaffected by said legislation. Known as the West Lothian Question, it remains a constitutional abomination. Although the situation whereby Measures passed in the Assembly are scrutinised by MPs and Peers in Westminster is not a direct parallel to the West Lothian Question, the principle of those unaffected by the law in question being removed entirely from the lawmaking process is sound.
3) A yes vote on Thursday will merely put Wales on almost equal footing with the other devolved governments in Scotland and Northern Ireland, which already do not need to have their laws scrutinised by Westminster. As a proud Welshman I personally have never seen any good reason why Wales should be treated any differently from Scotland or Northern Ireland.
4) I instinctively believe in Localism. Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy. This, for example, is why I am so keen to preserve the integrity of Anglesey County Council and not see it submerged within a Greater Gwynedd.
-
I instinctively believe in Localism. Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy. This, for example, is why I am so keen to preserve the integrity of Anglesey County Council and not see it submerged within a Greater Gwynedd.
And, curiously, that's the very thing that worries me. I don't see devolution or devolved governments as being 'good things'. I see wars throughout history, massacres, genocide and barbarism being committed always in the name of only two things: religion and language. As a Welsh person, you're no different from a Swedish person, or a German person , or a Russian person, ad infinitum. We're all members of the human race and that which unites us is far, far stronger than that which divides us, yet getting us to think, act and take decisions as a single species seems to be impossible, because of the myriad tiny nationalisms we have.
Lest we forget the worst wars in history were started because one group wanted more of what other groups already had. We think that's in the past, and it couldn't happen again. But it is. The Serbian issues were comparatively recently, and it's not that long ago that the Irish were shooting, bombing and slaughtering each other and those they perceived as 'oppressors'.
Where does it end? If we say "Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy." what size is the eventual political unit? Is it a county? A town? A village? A single street?
As people we're stronger together than factionalized, yet we seem hell-bent on propagating the mythical uniqueness of every tiny group no matter how small.
On top of all that, of course, is the cost. Every time we add yet another layer of bureaucracy, in the form of Assemblies, County councils, Town councils, community councils - they have to be financed, and that money can only come from one group of taxpayers: us.
-
is that a 'no' then?
we still have had no 'blue booklet' through the letterbox and the vote is tomorrow, currently I'm just slightly in the yes camp, any other opinions, anyone? is any doom forcast either way?
-
Everyone is correct in their own way...because human nature can't be ignored or fully suppressed.
There has been much talk of Britain being a successful mulicultural society for the last 20 years.
But in reality, that is just a facade. A facade that remained intact whilst the economy was relatively strong.
But as soon as resource starts becoming scarce, then people turn and point at each other....'he's got more than me'' and its always because said person is Jewish, Indian, Muslim, Chinese... or whatever 'he' happens to be.
Recently, the German Chancellor Angela Merkel has announced, ''the multicultural society is dead''
In reality, there is no such thing as a multicultural society. The human race is just not ready for it.
Place a group of Catholic families in a Protestant area of Belfast....they will not get on.
Place a group of Liverpool fans into a Manchester housing estate, they will not get on.
They never have, they never will, its just the way it is.... sadly.
Vote NO, or vote YES....there will still be a raft of beaurocrats getting rich at your expense.
Your life will not change at all.
-
Where does it end? If we say "Political decisions which affect us all, should be taken as closely as possible to us -- not by some overlarge central top-down bureaucracy." what size is the eventual political unit? Is it a county? A town? A village? A single street?
We can only look at what has happened locally. Llandudno's best years were when it was run by the Urban District Council. When that was replaced by first the larger Aberconway area, and then the far larger Conwy Council, the standard of services has undoubtedly declined. Without local control, the people in charge, not to mention the staff, just don't care as much.
Why should English MPs care about what happens in Wales - I wouldn't expect them to, and that's why they should play no role in Welsh decision making.
-
Let them spend a couple of weekends in Llandudno, then they'll care.....!
Llandudno gets you that way! $welsh$ $welsh$ $welsh$
-
I'm inclined to agree with Dave, My father served with LLUDC. as a councillor, and as far as I can recollect, was not paid for his services but could claim expenses, which did not cover his loss of earnings from his employment. Once they got paid for their their involvement things seem to change. !
-
Thats as may be.... but believe you me, a YES vote on Thursday will not move things one inch back towards that happy time.
In fact the referendum is largely a waste of time and money.
Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.
-
Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.
Rubbish Fester, I'm voting for Pedro.
-
Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.
You didn't until I told you! :o L0L
-
Llandudno's best years were when it was run by the Urban District Council. When that was replaced by first the larger Aberconwy area, and then the far larger Conwy Council, the standard of services has undoubtedly declined. Without local control, the people in charge, not to mention the staff, just don't care as much.
But they were also the years when local tourism was thriving, people were still coming to Llandudno for one week and two week holidays and the world didn't have satellite TV, cell phones or personal computers. But the changes came after 1974, the Miners' strikes and the winter of discontent, when foreign travel became affordable, house prices began to rise rapidly and the economy generally, picked up.
I agree that local, unpaid councillors probably did the job to the best of their ability, and it was an arrangement which had the benefit that they could be dealt with, directly and easily. But as things became more difficult, would these same people have been able to cope as well?
My experience of local authorities in general is that I'd hesitate to trust any of them with anything more than filling in the odd pothole. As Fester says, people are people, and you'll inevitably get the same scroungers, work-shy, agenda-driven rascals in any elected office. However, people being people, the most able will also seek the highest positions that afford the most power, and that usually means they'll head towards parliament, eventually, which is why I have greater confidence in MPs than local councillors. Unfortunately, the same cannot always be said of non-elected officials, and I suspect that's where a lot of problems originate.
-
Very few people remotely understand what the vote is actually about.
You didn't until I told you! :o L0L
Ha ha..correct...but you didn't know how to tie your laces, until someone told you! Thats how life works!
-
Looks like there could be a clean sweep of YES votes across North Wales, and possibly across the whole of Wales. Even the most anglicised county, Wrexham, voted decisively in favour of law making powers for the Welsh Assembly.
1519 NATIONAL RESULT Wales votes Yes. Yes: 517,132. No: 297,380
1517 RESULT Cardiff votes Yes. Yes: 53,427. No: 33,606
1434 RESULT Gwynedd votes Yes. Yes: 28,200. No: 8,891. Achieved on a comparatively healthy 43% turnout.
1424 RESULT Monmouthshire votes No. Yes: 12,381. No: 12,701.
1418 RESULT Rhondda Cynon Taf votes Yes. Yes: 43,051. No: 17,834.
1407 RESULT Ceredigion votes Yes. Yes: 16,505. No: 8,412
1403 RESULT Bridgend votes Yes. Yes: 25,063. No: 11,736. A thumping majority for the Yes camp in Bridgend.
1400 RESULT Torfaen votes Yes. Yes: 14,655. No: 8,688. Torfaen voted No - just - with a 50.2% majority in 1997.
1354 RESULT Flintshire votes Yes: 21,119. No: 12,913 - that is a whopping 24% swing towards Yes since 1997.
1350 RESULT Vale of Glamorgan votes Yes. Yes: 19,430. No: 17,551
1345 RESULT Caerphilly votes Yes. Yes: 28,431. No: 15,751
1333 RESULT Neath Port Talbot votes Yes. Yes: 29,959. No 11,079 - a 7% swing to Yes since the 1997 referendum
1331 RESULT Merthyr Tydfil votes Yes. Yes: 9,137. No: 4,132.
1326 RESULT Powys votes Yes. Yes: 21,072. No 19,730 - that's a 9% swing to Yes since 1997.
1323 RESULT Swansea votes Yes. Yes: 38,496. No: 22,409.
1315 RESULT Pembrokeshire votes Yes. Yes votes: 19,600. No votes: 16,050
1315 RESULT Conwy votes Yes. Yes votes: 18,368. No votes: 12,390
1315 RESULT Newport votes Yes. Yes votes: 15,983. No votes: 13,204
1309 RESULT Ynys Mon/Anglesey votes Yes. Yes: 14,011. No: 7,620
1237 RESULT Wrexham votes Yes. No: 9,863. Yes 17,606
1159 RESULT Denbighshire votes Yes. No: 9,742. Yes: 15,793.
1150 RESULT Blaenau Gwent votes Yes. No: 5,366. Yes: 11,869.
Results are coming in here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/9413995.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/9413995.stm)
-
I had to laugh at this comment on the BBC website:
"Welsh Conservative and No voter Bill Hughes says: "The party will move on, and we belong to the United Kingdom which to me is very very important, particularly given the non-productivity within Wales.""
He doesn't seem to realise that the poor state of the Welsh economy is down to being run by an completely indifferent London Parliament for several hundred years...
-
My knowledge of politics is virtually nil
but YES is good isn't it?
Is this the same as devolution in Scotland?
-
He doesn't seem to realise that the poor state of the Welsh economy is down to being run by an completely indifferent London Parliament for several hundred years...
some would say that they've not done any better in large parts of England, roughly anywhere over 50 miles from London!
-
I agree. That's what concerns me; where will the devolution bandwagon end? Will Liverpool make a UDI?
-
If it is the will of the people, then why not?
-
I am waiting for the sea levels to rise over the next few years, and then I shall declare independance for The Great Orme. <:<:<:<
-
I'm all for that - The Little Orme can be another dependency! $uk
-
...and Brian Thomas will be crowned KING of The Great Orme.
-
If it is the will of the people, then why not?
But how many people?
-
At least a dozen of us! ZXZ Z** D)
-
If it is the will of the people, then why not?
But how many people?
The majority. ;)
-
Yes...the majority of the minority!
Basically 80% of the electorate either voted NO, or couldn't be bothered to vote. So YES wins!
Isn't democracy wonderful?
-
And therein lies the problem. Democracy is only effective when the vast majority of those involved either want it to work or don't care about apparently minor changes. As you say, F, the Yes vote was achieved through 66% of a miserable 35% turnout. Perhaps we should have had a finite percentage required: say, more than 50% of the eligible voting population.
If it is the will of the people, then why not?
But how many people?
The majority.
The majority of what? I can't remember a government in the past fifty years that has been elected by a majority of the electorate, let alone a referendum question being decided by one.
-
Yes...the majority of the minority!
Basically 80% of the electorate either voted NO, or couldn't be bothered to vote. So YES wins!
Isn't democracy wonderful?
The point is everyone had the opportunity to vote. They also had the choice whether to vote or not. So the result is perfectly valid.
Who can say whether the people who didn't vote would have voted YES or NO? :roll:
What's very noticeable is how support for devolution has grown steadily in Wales. Back in the 1979 Referendum, 79% of people voted NO - there has been a complete turnaround from that situation now.
Fe Godwn Ni Eto. :)
-
And therein lies the problem. Democracy is only effective when the vast majority of those involved either want it to work or don't care about apparently minor changes. As you say, F, the Yes vote was achieved through 66% of a miserable 35% turnout. Perhaps we should have had a finite percentage required: say, more than 50% of the eligible voting population.
If it is the will of the people, then why not?
But how many people?
The majority.
The majority of what? I can't remember a government in the past fifty years that has been elected by a majority of the electorate, let alone a referendum question being decided by one.
Did you vote, Ian?
-
I did, Dave. I've always voted, because ,despite its imperfections, democracy of any kind is too important not to exercise.
-
The UK Independence Party (UKIP) has launched its campaign for May's assembly election with a promise to get rid of AMs and make MPs do their work.
UKIP would also ban future onshore wind farms and dismantle existing ones, promoting in its place the use of nuclear energy.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-12880541 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-12880541)
-
Somewhat ironic that UKIP is fighting for the ability of the UK to manage its own affairs whilst seeking to deny the people of Wales the same right....
-
Aberconwy Labour Party has launched a petition on the petitions website change.org. Its members are concerned that Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is to open a new regional centre in central Cardiff, while employees in North Wales being expected to transfer to Liverpool.
The petition asks HMRC and the Westminster Government to reconsider their plans for Wales, requesting a regional centre to be retained in the North to meet the needs of local people. Speaking at a meeting of supporters on Saturday, Mike Priestley, Welsh Labour’s Assembly candidate for Aberconwy said, “Sometimes people in London and in Cardiff forget the needs of people in North Wales. I will fight to make sure that the north of Wales is not forgotten".
-
I support this action 100%.Well done!
In case others can't find the petition here is the link ...
https://www.change.org/p/her-majesty-revenue-and-customs-h-m-government-westminster-keep-hmrc-jobs-in-north-wales (https://www.change.org/p/her-majesty-revenue-and-customs-h-m-government-westminster-keep-hmrc-jobs-in-north-wales)
-
The Welsh Government has spent over £100,000 on a system to manage its Twitter accounts
A political source told us: “I was browsing the Cabinet Office’s online procurement portal and was alarmed to discover that, since 2013, the Welsh Government has been paying an annual fee of £34,560 for a Twitter Management Platform called Hootsuite, based in the US.
“To date, this cost amounts to a staggering £103,680 – enough to put two people through medical school. Surely this is a frivolity too far?
“The Welsh Government are supposed to be stewards of public money, but how can they justify paying such extortionate rates for what can just as easily be achieved for free?”
A Welsh Government spokesman responded: “We make no apology for wanting to engage with the people of Wales in as wide a variety of ways as possible.
“Social media is increasingly important for us in communicating with the public, stakeholders and the media.
“This contract provides security and resilience for all of our social media channels and so we would dispute that it is ‘frivolous’ to purchase a reliable and reputable service from a company that has been through the Official Journal of the European Union procurement process.”
MORE http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-government-spent-over-100000-11110348 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-government-spent-over-100000-11110348)
-
What a total waste of money! Surely they had some staff who already understood Twitter to put messages on Twitter? &shake&
-
New 'growth deal' for north Wales is gaining momentum
Welsh secretary Alun Cairns and Welsh office minister Guto Bebb meet north Wales regional leaders on Wednesday
The day after news broke of the Tata steel sale, new Welsh secretary Alun Cairns was not in Port Talbot or Mumbai.
Instead, he was chairing a meeting in Wrexham's Glyndwr University about a potential growth deal for north Wales.
The secretary of state's choice of priorities was an indication of how serious he is about the plan.
But did the meeting - attended by 18 English and Welsh council leaders and business representatives - actually decide anything?
A Wales Office spokesman said: "The discussion made clear that any growth deal needs to be about more than transport infrastructure or a 'wish list' - it must involve genuine devolution of powers.
"What was achieved was a commitment from local partners to work together and to make the bid cross-border."
Yet according to one person at the meeting, this new cross-border partnership potentially creates a huge "governance challenge" for both Westminster and Cardiff.
He said: "We have our cross-border links with England, which are very real, and then we have the link with the northern powerhouse and then obviously there is the role of the Welsh Government.
"But how will it all work - and will Cardiff ignore north Wales like they have for the past five years?"
MORE CONT. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35936927 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35936927)
Sort of linked to the above What does the Tata steel crisis really mean to North Wales?
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/what-tata-steel-crisis-really-11127013 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/what-tata-steel-crisis-really-11127013)
-
The future running of the A55 is in the hands of a North Wales’ politician after a cabinet shake-up today saw major changes.
After a dramatic fortnight in Cardiff Bay First Minister Carwyn Jones finally named his new super cabinet this afternoon, in a reorganisation filled with promotions.
Clwyd South AM Ken Skates was promoted to economy and infrastructure secretary during the reshuffle which saw the creation of both a welsh language and children’s minister.
He will now be in charge of spending decisions for the A55 , North Wales trains, and businesses, alongside a range of other issues.
More http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/future-a55-now-hands-north-11359311 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/future-a55-now-hands-north-11359311)