Three Towns Forum
Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: dwsi on October 09, 2011, 01:04:27 pm
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Jac o' the North: Assembly Petition on Social Housing http://bit.ly/oWmvlv (http://bit.ly/oWmvlv)
Assembly Petition on Social Housing
I had earlier thought that my submission to the Assembly Petition Committee had been rejected for being too much like a petition presented earlier by one Adam Brown, domiciled in Cardiff but a Merthyr Tydfil councillor for Ukip. All explained here. But my - re-worded - petition has now been accepted. The reason for the change of heart is that I call for a residency qualification while Adam Brown is seeking to deny social housing to all "non-UK nationals".
The petition can be found here (https://www.assemblywales.org/cy/gethome/e-petitions/epetition-list-of-signatories.htm?pet_id=628) in Welsh and here (https://www.assemblywales.org/gethome/e-petitions/epetition-list-of-signatories.htm?pet_id=628) in English. Obviously the wording will not be to everybody's liking but please don't be overly critical, because the point is to draw attention to the shambles that is social housing provision in Wales. This has to be the first step to getting the changes made that will benefit our people and our communities. The petition is open until December 31. After which:
"You will then have the opportunity to present your petition to the Committee on the steps of the Senedd. This will give you the chance to meet the Committee Members and get some media coverage if you would like to. We can chat more about this closer to the closing date of your petition."
So let's give it our best shot; for even though this is my petition, through this blog and in other ways I have learnt of the massive and widespread dissatisfaction with the way social housing providers in Wales operate. So this is your petition as much as mine.
Please sign it and then pass it on to as many people as you know who share our feelings about social housing provision. Use Facebook, Twitter or any other medium you can think off - but let's get as many signatures as we can.
Posted by Jac o' the North
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I've inserted links to the relevant petitions, dwsi.
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I've signed the petition and posted the link on my facebook. The issue of social housing has become out of control now it's getting beyond a joke. I remember years ago I applied for social housing in Penmaenmawr and was told there was a 2 yr waiting list. As homes became available I noticed the people getting those homes were not from Pen, and had never lived in Pen.
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It's crazy situation. I know of one shared ownership property locally, where the residents were from Kong Kong and didnt speak a word of English, whilst there were many local couples waiting to get on the property ladder.
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DaveR, what is the problem when shared ownership refers to ownership of a property and not renting?
Surely, a local couple are entitled to the same opportunity as a couple from Hong Kong if both couples are in a position to obtain and take on a mortgage in conjunction with an interest-only loan?
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The whole idea of shared ownership was to provide a more affordable way for local people to buy property in their own area. With the greatest of respect, Hong Kong is not local to Colwyn Bay. There should be restrictions in place to ensure that applicants have a local background.
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DaveR, I think you maybe confusing Affordable Housing with shared ownership, shared equity and homebuy schemes which have all been around for many years and are not necessarily limited to local people.
Housing Associations tend to support shared ownership with a normal mortgage from a lender and top it up with funds allocated to them from the Welsh Government, which can act the same way a cash deposit does.
Schemes are usually dealt with on a first come, first served basis from a long waiting list with no points system involved.
However, a larger family usually gets the greater support.
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Housing Associations tend to support shared ownership with a normal mortgage from a lender and top it up with funds allocated to them from the Welsh Government, which can act the same way a cash deposit does.
If the funds are topped up from the Welsh Government then shouldn't priority be given to local people to buy the property?
As for affordable housing and how it is allocated under the present system it is a joke and any comment I would like to make would be unprintable. :rage: :rage:
Thanks for the original posting Dwsi
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Housing Associations tend to support shared ownership with a normal mortgage from a lender and top it up with funds allocated to them from the Welsh Government, which can act the same way a cash deposit does.
If the funds are topped up from the Welsh Government then shouldn't priority be given to local people to buy the property?
I agree and I also imagine WGov need to stipulate that as a requirement so housing associations can change their qualifying criteria.
As for affordable housing and how it is allocated under the present system it is a joke and any comment I would like to make would be unprintable. :rage: :rage:
Thanks for the original posting Dwsi
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The scope of social housing jobs has widened dramatically since the 1980s. At that time social housing was very much about rent collection and managing anti social behaviour within socially housed neighbourhoods.
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I don't mind them building on Boadfon fields if the houses are to be for locals and first time buyers. What I do object to are old age pensioners coming from England and overloading the infrastructure - social service. Locals shouldn't have to queue behind them.
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I don't mind them building on Boadfon fields if the houses are to be for locals and first time buyers. What I do object to are old age pensioners coming from England and overloading the infrastructure - social service. Locals shouldn't have to queue behind them.
A lot of these, as you call them, Old Aged Pensioners, moving into the area bring valuable resources into the community. They also BUY their houses and thereby remove a burden from the Local Service providers.
I presume that all the Welsh people who have decided in the past to remove themselves from this not so green, and sometimes unpleasant land, get thought of somewhat differently wherever they may have settled.
$uk
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I don't mind them building on Boadfon fields if the houses are to be for locals and first time buyers. What I do object to are old age pensioners coming from England and overloading the infrastructure - social service. Locals shouldn't have to queue behind them.
We've been living in North Wales for 5 years now, most of it near Porthmadog and you are the first 'local' to make me feel out of place! I'm not an oap and we bought our own house outright, I can't see the problem? I can see the problem with the problem / drunk / druggie / undesirables from England, dumped in Rhyl, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno, yet strangely you do not mention them? Have I read your post correctly or does it need adjusting in some way?
Anyway where is Boadfon fields? :twoface:
$walesflag$
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I'm not an oap and we bought our own house outright, I can't see the problem?
Surely she is not referring to you then? :roll:
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only 9 years to go :o :D
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only 9 years to go :o :D
So...wait 9 years and THEN be offended :laugh:
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I'm building up to it :P
Croeso y Cymru $walesflag$
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I hope you are joking when you ask where Bodafon Fields are. If not words fail me !
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I know where BODAFON fields are..... :laugh:
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And I am a SENIOR CITIZEN who moved here with my WELSH wife 25 years ago. We too bought our place outright. I wished my kids lived here also, but like so many other youngsters these days, they have had to leave home to find decent jobs in England or elsewhere.
I have tried to "fit in" but get fed up of some of the regular comments about the influx of people from outside of Wales... Just wait until you get the influx of emigrants that the major English cities have seen over the past 50 years. Then there will be something to gripe about. Immigrants getting social housing ahead of the local populous, it's all in the media. $angry$
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On my family farm, we are currently in the planning process for building 3 houses. 1 of these houses will be offered voluntary by us as social housing. During a meeting with the housing association, we said we wanted this house to go to locally born people. The housing association told us we weren't allowed to do this, they said if there was a couple from Birmingham that wanted a house then they would get it first.
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OOhh Llechwedd..... Can is open, worms everywhere!
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Immigrants getting social housing ahead of the local populous, it's all in the media.
It's really not. I know of a couple from Hong Kong who received a lovely new house in Rhos under the shared ownership scheme. How could they have possibly qualified for this scarce accommodation when they had only recently arrived in the UK, whilst young couples whose families have lived here for generations are still looking for their first home to buy?
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"Shared ownership housing schemes are usually intended for people who cannot afford to buy a suitable home in any other way. However, the way in which this is defined will vary considerably with some shared ownership schemes merely being restricted to first time buyers and others to applicants living within a certain borough. Generally, priority goes to the following groups in the first instance, in order of priority: existing social tenants; serving military personnel; and then on equal priority ranking, local priorities as set by Local Authorities. "
From http://www.shared-ownership.org.uk/ (http://www.shared-ownership.org.uk/)
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Nonetheless, this Chinese couple found themselves living in a lovely shared ownership house. They've now returned back to Hong Kong.
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Wasn't Hong Kong something to do with the British until just a few years ago? We had too many colonies and now suffer the consequences! &shake&
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Wasn't Hong Kong something to do with the British until just a few years ago? We had too many colonies and now suffer the consequences! &shake&
It certainly was, Yorkie. But I wonder if we would receive any social housing if we went to Hong Kong?
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Public housing in Hong Kong is a set of mass housing programmes through which the Government of Hong Kong provides affordable housing for lower-income residents. It is a major component of housing in Hong Kong, with nearly half of the population now residing in some form of public housing. The public housing policy dates to 1953, when a fire in Shek Kip Mei destroyed thousands of shanty homes and prompted the government to begin constructing homes for the poor.
Public housing is mainly built by the Hong Kong Housing Authority and the Hong Kong Housing Society. Rents and prices are significantly lower than those for private housing and are heavily subsidised by the government, with revenues partially recovered from sources such as rents and charges collected from car parks and shops within or near the residences.
Public housing estates are typically built in remote or less accessible parts of the territory, but urban expansion has left some older estates now deep within the inner city. They are found in every district of Hong Kong except in Wan Chai District. The vast majority of projects consist of high-rise buildings, and the recent buildings usually contain 40 or more storeys.
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Whether we would qualify for accommodation or not I do not know, but my Sister-in-Law had no problem with accommodation when she and her family were living there. Perhaps someone else knows the answer?
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I have been to Hong Kong many times in my life, and it is one of my very favourite places.
It is incredibly vibrant, clean and brilliantly managed in terms of infrastructure and public transport.
A very impressive city / state in many ways.
It is also a terribly over populated island and peninsula.
I don't know why Wan Chai is excluded from Social Housing developments, it is a sprawling metropolis of markets, bars and urban life. Brilliant, if a little seedy.
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The point I was trying to make is that oap's come here from England and buy up flats and houses at inflated prices which locals can't afford. They are a huge drain on the infrastucture just talk to anyone from Social Services. If many houses are to be built then I think that they should be for locals who can afford thenm rather than yet more non locals. I wan't having a go at you Merddyn so why take offence you are not old yet.
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What rubbish, piffle and drivel!
When I came here we moved from Tamworth in Staffordshire and after buying our property up here, which was a darn sight bigger than the one we left, I had £10,000 change in my pocket!
I have looked at moving back "dahn sahf" to be nearer the kids but the difference in prices of property is horrendous! Certainly can't match what we have at the moment without adding another 100K on top!
:rage:
And please stop using that term OAP, it went out with the Ark! $thanx$
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Phoo you should be so lucky ! £10.000
:o :o :o
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Llechwedd, I think you are generalising far too much.
I originally bought my house in Llandudno to use as a holiday home, and planned to retire here in future.
You might not agree with that, but this house had been for sale for ages, and local people had ample opportunity to buy it.
This was 2006, and I have to say that some of the houses that were for sale back then, are STILL for sale today!
However, due the wonderful people I have met, (neighbours and friends), and the nature of the town itself, I could not bear to leave Llandudno each weekend, and made immediate plans to live AND WORK here.
The point I would raise here is that I actually dispute the need to build ANY new houses.
The forecasts for housing needs are now years out of date, they come from before the credit crunch.
There are empty houses everywhere in this area and no shortage of availability of property.
The problem is being able to afford it!
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The point I was trying to make is that oap's come here from England and buy up flats and houses at inflated prices which locals can't afford. They are a huge drain on the infrastucture just talk to anyone from Social Services. If many houses are to be built then I think that they should be for locals who can afford thenm rather than yet more non locals. I wan't having a go at you Merddyn so why take offence you are not old yet.
Looks like I did read it right the first time round, so I will need to move back to England when I'm 65?
When we bought the first house near Porthmadog it was from very friendly local Welsh people who had been trying to sell the house for two years! Don't forget 'local' people sold the houses in the first place and the problem of second homes applies to Cornwell, Devon, etc just the same. I always thought if I want to move to any part of the uk then I can, don't forget we are all paying council tax etc living here. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject I think :)
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the problem of second homes applies to Cornwell, Devon, etc just the same.
Not quite the same. Wales is a separate country, with a different language, culture etc. It stands to reason that a large influx of incomers can put that language and culture under threat.
As an example of this, can I ask how many people here who have moved from England have bothered to even attempt learning Welsh?
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I had an attempt at some Welsh when living near Porthmadog, but unless you are very good at languages (which I'm not!) then it's very difficult to learn it. As you know Dave, I'm very pro Welsh language etc, but that doesn't automatically give you the ability to do it :(.
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Again, ME, it doesn't apply to you as you have had a go at learning it. Many people who move into the area just (sadly) refuse to do so.
Here's some useful phrases to get you started :
http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cmc/cheat/cheat_swearing.htm (http://www.clwbmalucachu.co.uk/cmc/cheat/cheat_swearing.htm)
(People of a sensitive (or maybe sensible) disposition are not advised to click the link)
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Great link, I'm intrigued by the word 'corris' as it's a place I have been to many times (there is a preserved railway there) :laugh:
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We are trying to learn it to help us understand rather than to try and speak the language. My mother's side of the family as all welsh and I knew a small amount before I came to live here but at my age that unfortunately hasn't made it any easier. Still trying though.
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Wales is a separate country, with a different language, culture etc. It stands to reason that a large influx of incomers can put that language and culture under threat.
As an example of this, can I ask how many people here who have moved from England have bothered to even attempt learning Welsh?
I tried, and do manage to use the usual pleasantries but as has already been said, Welsh is a very difficult language to learn. Even more so, when the brain has passed its sell by date.
Notwithstanding your comment, there are more Welsh people who don't speak the country's language that those who do. This would tend to indicate that the people themselves are creating the demise of their own language and culture. As long as Wales wants to be a separate country the division will remain.
Almost the rest of the UK has a system of multiculturalism where integration of the differing ethnic groups is seen as the best way to a harmonious society.
As an after note, my wife is Welsh born and bred but was not educated under a Welsh system and having left home to work in France and London after leaving college, was never in a position to need or seek to learn the language. She does however speak two other European languages (apart from English) that are useful throughout the modern World.
I see us as being members of the United Kingdom, rather than being placed in one special box or category!
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My OH and I have also picked up a smattering of Welsh, but not enough to speak or understand a lot of it. We would both love to learn, but business commitments prevented us when we first came here and now we feel that age would be against us.
We both learned French and Spanish and find that many words of Welsh can be similar or have a similar stem to these languages.
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Notwithstanding your comment, there are more Welsh people who don't speak the country's language that those who do. This would tend to indicate that the people themselves are creating the demise of their own language and culture. As long as Wales wants to be a separate country the division will remain.
But the usage of Welsh is increasing, so I don't understand how you come to that conclusion?
Wales is a separate country, there is no ambiguity about it. Has Wales benefited from being part of the UK? Not really, the GDP per head in Wales was a pathetic 68.4 % of the European average in 2009 - that is appalling and the result of many decades of indifference from the London Government towards Wales, especially with regard to economic development. Now that same economic weakness is used as an argument as to why Wales couldn't survive as an independent country - how ironic! &shake&
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But the usage of Welsh is increasing, so I don't understand how you come to that conclusion?
There may be an increase in the use of the Welsh language in actual numbers but I think you will find that the percentage of Welsh speakers in the community has changed very little.
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But the usage of Welsh is increasing, so I don't understand how you come to that conclusion?
There may be an increase in the use of the Welsh language in actual numbers but I think you will find that the percentage of Welsh speakers in the community has changed very little.
The % numbers of Welsh speakers have been climbing since the nadir of the early 1990s. It only reached a nadir, it should be noted, because of the deliberate policy of not allowing pupils to be taught in Welsh in schools. When I was growing up for example, there was no school locally where you could be taught in Welsh, it was only available to be studied as a second language.
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'When in Rome' eh Dave?
I see that we have veered of the topic of Social Housing and down some kind of Nationalistic cul de sac.
A subject I don't mend debating at all, but it seems a little misplaced to have it here.
Nevertheless, my grandparents were Welsh, but moved to England before WWII, so perhaps I was only on loan to England for a generation? Who knows, and its of no importance to me.
I have had a dabble with learning Cymraeg, (did you see what I did there eh?) ..mainly from a phrase book and local friends.
Even Merddin Emrys passed on a few phrases to me, Dave R has too... but I let it all lapse for two important reasons.
1, I realised that I wasn't very good at it, plus the fact that it wasn't really THAT critical seeing as Cymraeg is not the first language of Wales. When I worked in France I was forced to try harder, because some (the minority) of business meetings were held in French. I was rubbish at that too.
2, A local friend of mine (born in Gyffin) who was brought up devoutly to speak Welsh and is flawless at it, no longer speaks it. What a terrible shame I thought. He maintains that this is because of the snobbery around the subject.
Apparently many people like to pick fault and correct others who may have used the wrong tense or syntax in Welsh. So, if this was happening to a perfectly fluent Welsh speaker, what chance would I have?
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Apparently many people like to pick fault and correct others who may have used the wrong tense or syntax in Welsh. So, if this was happening to a perfectly fluent Welsh speaker, what chance would I have?
Is this like the infamous shop in Wales where everyone starts speaking Welsh as soon as an English person walks in? I've never heard of anyone having their Welsh corrected.
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Maybe you should get out more? :laugh:
Diolch yn fawr.
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I missed an opportunity there...
When I first went to Llanrwst, I went into a confectioners where English was being spoken, until I opened my big mouth. At which point it seemed that the whole world spoke only Welsh.
I just shrugged my enormous, muscular shoulders :laugh: and put it down to experience.
On numerous occasions, people come in to my shop speaking Cymraeg to each other.... then they converse with me in English for a while, but then have discussions between themselves about the transaction in Welsh again.
I find that quite rude, but I have to remember that Indians, Pakistanis, Polish people etc... all do the same to me regularly, and I need to address my paranoia.
I suppose I do that Spanish shopkeepers when I'm in Spain... :roll:
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I did jury service in Caernarfon just over a year ago on a bi-lingual case where some of the witnesses requested to give their evidence in Welsh. We were equipped with head sets and had a real time translation of the welsh speaking elements of the case. Some of the Welsh speaking jurors also had the English elements translated into Welsh. A fairly lurid case but a fascinating experience.
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Same thing happened to me at a planning meeting-- a very strange experience !
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I missed an opportunity there...
When I first went to Llanrwst, I went into a confectioners where English was being spoken, until I opened my big mouth. At which point it seemed that the whole world spoke only Welsh.
I just shrugged my enormous, muscular shoulders :laugh: and put it down to experience.
Why would people who speak Welsh as their first language be speaking in English? They may use the odd English phrase in the conversation but that's about it. Did the assistant speak to you in Welsh after you spoke to her in English?
And what is rude about them speaking Welsh in your shop - it is the language they use all day long? Remember, you're in their country, not the other way round! I don't suppose you were offended enough not to take their money! :laugh:
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Remember, you're in their country . . . . . . . . . . . . .
And unfortunately some of them are rather over possessive about it! :-X
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Remember, you're in their country . . . . . . . . . . . . .
And unfortunately some of them are rather over possessive about it! :-X
It reminds me of an article I read in the NWWN some years ago. Two elderly ladies were visiting the Welsh Mountain Zoo in Colwyn Bay and they overheard people speaking in Welsh. One said to the other in a voice loud enough to be heard "I don't know why they are speaking in that foreign language because we are in England after all! "
Just shows you that age is not a barrier to ignorance.
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Remember, you're in their country . . . . . . . . . . . . .
And unfortunately some of them are rather over possessive about it! :-X
Did you say Obsessive Yorkie?
Actually, the more I think about this, the more ludicrous it is.
People from South Wales speaking Cymraeg in my shop usually get short shrift from locals, who in the main don't seem to like South Walians for some reason.
I was born closer to Llandudno than they were, 116 miles as the crow flies, and a drive of 1hr 50 mins.
You try getting to Cardiff (Caerdydd) in that time.
Does that not by definition make me more local than them?
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Remember, you're in their country . . . . . . . . . . . . .
And unfortunately some of them are rather over possessive about it! :-X
Not in comparison to England. BNP, English Defence League ring any bells? When was the last time you saw a march in Wales protesting about immigrants? ;)
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Having done a fair bit of travelling in my time, I have always found that each country uses its own language in respect of the country's administration, road signs, and everything concerned with day to day living. Why then does Wales not establish its identity by utilising its own language in all matters, instead of producing everything bilingually? Apart from anything else it would save a fortune.
I would not object, although there probably would be a load of incomers who would. Because both languages are in general use it makes it easy for the people from England to migrate here. Take that away and Llechwedd's problem is solved!
It would probably only take one generation for Welsh to become the predominant, and truly National, language.
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Yorkie, countries can get by even if they are bilingual as Belgium and other countries do. All one expects is tolerance, understanding and respect for the other language.
Welsh is one of the oldest languages in the British Isles but was not recognised officially until recent years so you can understand how some people are peeved at the treatment given to the Welsh language.
My walking mate's father lived on a farm in Porthmadog yet was banned from speaking Welsh in school. It sounds oppressive now especially when you hear Urdu,Hindi and so on being spoken in English school yards nowadays and nothing is said about it.
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Well said Hugo! So now let's get back to the start and ask that the Welsh also be tolerant of the people who have decided to come and live in this green and pleasant land!
Let's not have all this rubbish about OAP's invading the Welsh resorts and pushing up house prices. Let's have an end to making some immigrants feel unwelcome. Let's stop burning holiday cottages and shouting from the rooftops that Wales is for the Welsh and everyone should speak the language!
Maybe then we will feel and understand the real Heireith! $walesflag$
I don't think people generally do not have respect for the language, but it is rather rude when English is being spoken, and rapidly switches to Welsh when a non-welsh person enters. The language barrier is a two way problem and there has to be tolerance on BOTH sides!
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it is rather rude when English is being spoken, and rapidly switches to Welsh when a non-welsh person enters. The language barrier is a two way problem and there has to be tolerance on BOTH sides!
I've never known that happen, though, and I spend more time travelling around North Wales than practically anyone on this forum? As I said before, why would people who speak Welsh all day long suddenly decide to speak English? It's as ridiculous as the idea that you would walk into a shop in France and they would all be speaking English, then switch into French! :laugh:
When we talk about tolerance, it should be remembered it is the Welsh people that speak two languages and the English that speak only one. Who is therefore making more effort to be tolerant? ;)
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it is rather rude when English is being spoken, and rapidly switches to Welsh when a non-welsh person enters. The language barrier is a two way problem and there has to be tolerance on BOTH sides!
I've never known that happen, though, and I spend more time travelling around North Wales than practically anyone on this forum? As I said before, why would people who speak Welsh all day long suddenly decide to speak English? It's as ridiculous as the idea that you would walk into a shop in France and they would all be speaking English, then switch into French! :laugh:
When we talk about tolerance, it should be remembered it is the Welsh people that speak two languages and the English that speak only one. Who is therefore making more effort to be tolerant? ;)
The Welsh (or some of them) speak both languages because they have been brought up learning both from childhood.
My schooling concentrated on teaching the English language until the age of 11 then a foreign language was introduced for the last five years of Secondary Education. Had my teachers had foresight they would maybe have taught me Welsh instead of German!
In the mean time since leaving school, I have learnt some French, Portuguese and Japanese. My wife also has French and Portuguese. Consequently we are not ignorant of other countries or their individual languages and are tolerant of all of them, including Welsh.
Your comment about the French borders on the ridiculous as France is not a bi-lingual country and the French would be unlikely to be conversing in English!
Some years ago I came down from Scotland to buy some equipment that had been in use on the construction of Dinorwig Power Station. I had my engineer with me, who was a Welshman, but who had developed a slight Scottish accent. We went out for a pub meal and in the bar as we walked in English was being spoken, that is until after we had started our conversation, when it immediately switched to Welsh. The group spent the next half hour denigrating the British, or English. How do I know? - My engineer spoke fluent Welsh - and as we left he gave a mouthful of advice to the group and even managed to elicit an apology from them on my behalf. This is not the only experience of such bad manners that I, and no doubt others, have experienced.
I presume you are a Welsh speaker and such an action would probably go unnoticed.
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I am unsure of the percentage (or absolute number) of Welsh people who speak both English and Welsh.
However, I believe that that the percentage of English people who speak a decent degree of another language will be a similar number.
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Extract from an Observer article:
One thing is clear: the UK has a shameful record on foreign languages and there has been a dramatic fall in the numbers studying them. A report concluded that the subjects were fast becoming the preserve of the middle classes. Nearly a third of schools had less than 25 per cent of pupils studying a foreign language after 14, the study by the National Centre for Languages (CiLT) found. The poorest teenagers were least likely to be learning a language, it added. The figures raised fears that a generation of monolingual youngsters would struggle to compete in a global job market. Out of the 25 European Union countries the UK only beats Hungary in the proportion of its citizens able to have a conversation in a second language. A study by the European Commission showed that 30 per cent of people in the UK were able to do this, compared to 91 per cent in the Netherlands, 88 per cent in Denmark, 62 per cent in Germany and 45 per cent in France.
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Official Statistics on the Welsh Language.
http://www.clickonwales.org/wp-content/uploads/5_Factfile_Language.pdf (http://www.clickonwales.org/wp-content/uploads/5_Factfile_Language.pdf)
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Some years ago I came down from Scotland to buy some equipment that had been in use on the construction of Dinorwig Power Station. I had my engineer with me, who was a Welshman, but who had developed a slight Scottish accent. We went out for a pub meal and in the bar as we walked in English was being spoken, that is until after we had started our conversation, when it immediately switched to Welsh. The group spent the next half hour denigrating the British, or English. How do I know? - My engineer spoke fluent Welsh - and as we left he gave a mouthful of advice to the group and even managed to elicit an apology from them on my behalf. This is not the only experience of such bad manners that I, and no doubt others, have experienced.
I presume you are a Welsh speaker and such an action would probably go unnoticed.
And how many years ago was that?! 30 years ago, maybe?
I speak English and, as you'd know if you had ever met me, don't have an accent, so would easily pass for being English. Anyone who looks at my photos will know I travel all over North Wales regularly, and visit shops, bars, cafes very frequently. Yet I've never encountered anything like you mention....
The analogy with France is perfectly valid - in many towns and villages in North Wales you will not hear English spoken in daily life. Just take a trip up to Llanrwst or along the coast to Caernarfon and have a walk around.
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Going back more than 40 years when we first came to Wales as holiday makers we stayed on a farm above Llanrwst. The farmer, his wife and family, all Welsh speakers, went out of their way to make us welcome, we were accepted and encouraged to try a smattering of Welsh words. This carried on for many years, in fact we still have contact with them now, but one night we all went to the local pub together. Her Mum looked after her kiddies and ours, so we all went. Naturally it was full of Welshmen, but we were included in a very strange conversation which was conducted in Welsh and English. As we left they all stood up and sang " We'll keep a Welcome in the Hillsides". I'll never forget that. :'( It still brings a lump to my throat.
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I remember during the late 70's when we previously lived in Rhos-on-Sea we used to go to the Stag in Llangerniew with a group of friends for a meal, and on certain evenings there would be some excellent Welsh singing. We all liked listening to it even though most of us didn't understand a word. It may still happen - must make a note to visit again. :D