Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 10:31:43 am

Title: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 10:31:43 am
Hello!

My husband's grandfather was born in Llangystennin Hall in 1906.  That's what it says on his birth certificate.  However, I'm a bit confused because the story was that she was a domestic servant there and her mother was the housekeeper but in the 1901 and 1911 census returns, Llangystennin Hall seems to be just an ordinary house with just a few people living there, quarry men and farmers and not the type of people you would think would be able to afford a domestic and a housekeeper.

Was there an actual 'hall'?  If there was, where was it?  A Google search leads me to believe there might have been an actual hall but that it might be somewhere in the Bryn Pydew area.

I'm hoping to be able to find out who the owner was in 1905/6.

Any help gratefully received.
Thank you
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: DaveR on September 14, 2017, 10:57:10 am
Llangystennin Hall is still there, a fairly large house in nice gardens on the Mochdre side of Bryn Pydew.

Here's an aerial view of it in Google Maps:
https://goo.gl/maps/DkyuFFnGBG72
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 10:59:02 am
Thank you!

So do you know what I would search for to find it in the 1901 and 1911 census?
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:09:06 am
Is it likely that the following people would have been the only ones living in such a large house in 1901 and 1911?

I'm a bit mystified..

1901
William John DAVIES  (head) Age 23 Carter/Groom Born Denbigh Llansannan
Miriam DAVIES (wife) Age 23 Born Denbigh Saron
Peter DAVIES (son) Age 3 months Born Llangystenin
Harriet DAVIES (sister) Age 13 Born Denbigh Llansannan
Robert P ROBERTS (lodger) Age 54 Lodger Farm Labourer Denbigh Llandullo y Rhos
Ellen J ROBERTS (lodger) Age 37  Born Denbigh Glan Conwy
John ROBERTS (lodger) Age 9 Born  Denbigh Llandullo yn Rhos
Robert O ROBERTS (lodger) Age 2 Born Denbigh Llandullo yn Rhos
Elizabeth DAVIES (daughter) Age 1 Born Llangystennin
Ellen HUGHES (head) Age 65 Born Llangystennin

1911
Owen  EVANS (head) Age 47 Limestone Quarryman Born Llangemiew Denbighshire (married 19 years)
Mary EVANS (wife) Age 45 Born ditto
Llewelyn EVANS (son) Age 20 Limestone Quarryman Born ditto
Griffith EVANS (son) Age 17 Limestone Quarryman Born ditto
Nellie EVANS (daughter) Age 18 Born Llangystennin
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 14, 2017, 11:15:55 am
In 1911, your husband's grandfather was 4 or 5 years of age and is not living at the Hall so must be living elsewhere.

Try the address shown on the birth certificate.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:17:21 am
Yes. His mother was unmarried and living in Llandudno Junction.  The story is she worked at the hall the the implication was that the father (unknown) lived at the hall.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:18:04 am
The address on the birth certificate is "Llangystennin Hall"..
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 14, 2017, 11:23:13 am
If the father's name is not shown on the birth certificate then it maybe shown on the baptism records.

Part of the Open Doors Heritage Days, the records for the church opposite, St Cystennin's, will be on display in the church this Saturday from 10am.

Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:25:57 am
It's a bit more complicated than that.

This was a private adoption and the baby was baptised in Manchester by his adopted parents as if he were theirs.  There would have been no local baptism.

I think I've found who the mother was and my hope was a clue from the census records for the father.  My husband has done an Ancestry DNA test and we're waiting to see if that throws anything up.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: DaveR on September 14, 2017, 11:29:10 am
It certainly is odd, in that the results for the Hall do not turn out as expected in the Census results. I found it in the 1911 census and it comes back with the same information as you found:
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:37:21 am
I suppose 'the boss' might have been on holiday when the census was taken.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 11:44:04 am
Is there another was to find out who was in residence around 1906?
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 14, 2017, 12:38:49 pm
and 1905?
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 12:49:48 pm
and 1905?

Indeed! ;)
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 14, 2017, 12:52:36 pm
I found this in Wales Newspapers Online for 1908.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3227477/3227483/16/ (http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3227477/3227483/16/)

Although he would be a bit old, I think.  Still, you never know.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 14, 2017, 04:14:52 pm
Am I missing something here but won't the original birth certificate show the name of the mother and possibly the father of the male child?   Who exactly are we looking for?
I would imagine that the adopted parents would rename the child but they couldn't legally register the birth in the name of the adopted  parents or could they?

As regards the 1911 Census, I'm only guessing but that looks like a Census of the employees working at the Hall.   Have you tried scrolling either side of that entry to see if there is 1 or more entries for other people living there
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Cambrian on September 14, 2017, 05:00:37 pm
I agree with Hugo.  There were several limestone quarries within walking distance of the Hall so the occupations of the men are not unusual for the locality.  Early OS maps show properties opposite the Hall as well as the coach houses etc which are still extant.  Possibly the quarry at Llangwstennin formed part of the estate and essentially the people listed were part of the wider "family" living in tied accommodation.  As Hugo says, a look either side of the entry might be informative.

At some stage the hall was a small hotel until the 1950s.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2017, 09:36:41 am
Have you tried scrolling either side of that entry to see if there is 1 or more entries for other people living there
I tried that, nothing came up sadly.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 15, 2017, 01:23:22 pm
That's strange Dave but thanks for looking it up.

At the moment it's like looking for a needle in a haystack,  Vermillion's posting said that they had the original Birth Certificate so there should be some info on it to give us a lead in the search.
Info like the name of the grandfather, his date of birth and the birth mother's name it all helps.

If the Grandfather was born in Llangystennin Hall then the birth would be registered in the office of the Registrar of Births, marriages and deaths at Conwy District.

Those same records would now be held in the Town Hall at Llandudno and they are very helpful at that office.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Helig on September 16, 2017, 10:54:33 am
There has been interest in Llangwstenin Hall elsewhere:

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=228227.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=228227.0)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=738582.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=738582.0)

It seems you have to do a place search to find all the census information.

Helig.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2017, 12:00:20 pm
It's a shame that they didn't post their searches on the forum Helig, especially the one for Penrhynside as they would probably have the answer now.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 01:49:45 pm
Hello again,

Full details as I know them.

Details from birth certificate.

Name: Charles Boyd (adoptive mother's maiden name) Faulkner (adoptive father's surname).

Date of birth June 6, 1906
Date of issue of birth certificate June 15, 1906
Date of baptism at adopted parent's home church in Manchester July 15, 1906

Name of father is blank
Name of mother is Margaret Pritchard - Usual address Llangwstenin Hall, Llangwstennin.
Occupation of mother - a Domestic Servant


It would seem that the adoptive parents passed the child off as their own as he was baptised in Manchester as if he were their own and there is no mention of the name Pritchard.

I've found Margaret (I think) and I don't hold out much hope of finding his father but I thought the mother's residence at the time of hs birth a good place to start.  That and the DNA test.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 02:11:36 pm
That's a good start Vermilion and one to work on.

You've got the mother's name
A date and place of birth for her son

I presume that the registration of the birth was by the biological mother and therefore that Registration District would be Conwy,    Hopefully there is enough info there already for someone to come up with some answers for you
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 02:15:04 pm
It will all be supposition but with lots of people now doing the Ancestry DNA test, who knows, one day we may find out.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: rhuddlan on September 20, 2017, 02:30:15 pm
There is a Charles Boyd F Pritchard in quarter ended Sept 1906 in Conway per freebmd.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 02:31:55 pm
Yes, that's the birth certificate I have.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 03:17:34 pm
I suppose that a search for a Margaret Pritchard in the 1901 Census would be a good place to start.    It's more than likely that she was born in Caernarfonshire or Denbighshire
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 03:20:24 pm
I found Margaret.  She was living in Llandudno Junction in 1901.

I can trace her forward to her death in the 1970s.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 03:27:31 pm
I've had a look at Roots UK and there is a Margaret Pritchard  born Conway   C 1884 and in the 1901 Census she was a domestic servant aged 17.
Is she the one that you have found?

As regards your original posting about wanting to know who was the owner of Llangystennin Hall in 1905/6  the Rates book may be able to tell you and it may be in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 03:31:30 pm
The one I think is mine was born 20 Jan 1886 in Caernarvon and was living at 3 Vale View Terrace Llandudno Junction in 1901.  Father Jeremiah.

I should add that on Ancestry they are mis-transcribed as Putchard and Margaret's age is given as 5 but when you view the actual scan, she is clearly 15 in 1901.

Took me ages to find her because of that.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 20, 2017, 03:34:08 pm
... Rates book may be able to tell you and it may be in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno

I live in Essex so that will have to wait until I'm next up which will probably be next year.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Helig on September 21, 2017, 10:58:27 am
I looked at the 1911 census to see if it was feasible to do a place search. One of the two enumeration districts has 497 pages alone. It would be a mammoth task to search that one by itself.

Margaret Pritchard was born in Llanbeblig, Caernarfon. The family are living in Llanbeblig in the 1891 census. Margaret is shown as Maggie. There is a possible marriage for Margaret in Conwy Registration District in the March quarter of 1907. I cannot find her in the 1911 census, so presumably she left Llangystennin before then.

I think the best way to trace the residents of Llangystennin Hall would be to look at the Trade, or Commercial directories which list the streets, houses and occupiers.

The name of Boyd given to her son, Charles, may be a clue to his father's name.


Helig
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 21, 2017, 11:06:54 am
Hi Helig,

Margaret had moved to West Derby by 1911 and married there.  The address in the 1901 census is very close to the hall and the closest Margaret Pritchard by a country mile.  I would assume that if she was a domestic there she would need to be close enough to walk it and Vale View Terrace is that close.  The name is right, the date is right, the occupation is right.  The fact that her father was a deacon at the local church may have had a bearing on why she didn't keep the child herself. (I'm summising.)

I have Margaret's birth certificate, marriage certificate and death certificate and I'm confident they are all the same person.  All I really need is a DNA match.  There is somebody with a tree on Ancestry who is a descendant of Margaret's brother and I have sent her a message but she has yet to reply.

Boyd was the maiden name of the woman who adopted the child.  Faulkner was the surname of the man who adopted the child and was married to Miss Boyd.

As to the father?  The family story is that he was the employer at the hall.  This was told to Charles by his adopted mother's sister when he was an adult.  I have no idea to the veracity of this.
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2017, 04:33:46 pm
I did go to the Conwy Archives but couldn't see any Rates Books for Llangystennin for 1905/6 or any other year near to it.   Due to lack of time I didn't make any other searches for Llangystennin.

The staff at the Archives are very helpful and just tell them what you are looking for and they'll look after you .

It looks like you have the right Margaret Pritchard so good luck with the DNA and I hope that you have a match there.

If for any reason it doesn't match then the other Margaret born Conway abt 1894 may be a contender.    She was aged 17 in the 1901 Census and was a domestic servant but living and working in Rhyl
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Vermilion on September 22, 2017, 08:35:13 am
Thank you for that, Hugo.

I'm playing the long game so it can wait until my next visit.  Charles's daughter lives in Rhos On Sea so I expect we shall be visiting in the not too distant future.

 :)
Title: Re: Llangystennin Hall
Post by: Helig on September 25, 2017, 11:52:30 am
I have looked at the 1901 census for Llangystenin Hall and agree the entry seems strange. I wonder whether the Conwy Archives would be able to help in your search for the history of this. I should think they would have some material on this place.

There were some trade and commercial directories in the library in Llandudno, these could be useful too.

My apologies for the mix up over the name of Boyd.

Helig.