Three Towns Forum

The Local => Local News & Discussion => Topic started by: Fester on October 21, 2010, 11:37:49 pm

Title: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on October 21, 2010, 11:37:49 pm
You have no idea how much I hesitated before raising this issue ....BUT.

You remember when I made some comments on Freemasonry on the OLD Forum?

Well, First.... my Postings mysteriously disappeared.
Then, ...The Forum itself mysteriously collapsed.
Do you remember the fiercest critic of Freemasonry?   Yes....now GOGARTH has disappeared !!...  AAARRGGHH !!!    aaa.gif aaa.gif aaa.gif
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on October 22, 2010, 04:36:34 am
Don't worry, Gogath was last seen in a wooded area somewhere in North Wales
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on October 22, 2010, 08:16:32 am
Worry not, Gogarth is alive and well, I received those old photos of the Swiss Cafe from them the other other day.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 22, 2010, 08:22:45 am
Surprised they are allowed out in public with offensive weapons!     _))*
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Pendragon on October 22, 2010, 02:27:38 pm
I know your not going to believe me but its absolutly true.

When I was 16 I moved to somerset (williton) I was living in a hotel.  The local Buffs lodge was held once every 2 months in the conference room.  Myself and another employee used to see these Buffs with chains round their necks and bells on their feet all dressed up. We were young and very intrigued so we plugged a baby moniter under the counter and listened in on their meeting with the speaker in the kitchen. All they spoke about was s***ing their wives, we were in tucks in the kitchen.  I can't take them seriously anymore.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 22, 2010, 03:05:42 pm
But then, of course, the Buffs (or The Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes) is nothing whatsoever to do with Freemasonry.       :P
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Quiggs on October 22, 2010, 03:12:49 pm
They don't wear chains or bells on their feet either, sounds more like Morris Dancers to me.   ¢¢##
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Pendragon on October 22, 2010, 03:56:49 pm
They look very similar to Freemasons.
I remember being told they were the poor mans Masons
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 22, 2010, 04:09:43 pm
If anyone is really interested there are approximately 2000 quasi-Masonic societies in the World and the majority of them have some form of regalia, most of which seems to be based on what we all recognise as Masonic.   A lot of information is available on the Internet so have a "Google" and see what you can find.    *&(

There are also Friendly Societies such as the Oddfellows who I have seen once parading on Llandudno Promenade.     L0L
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2010, 12:17:44 pm
When I was working, I remember calling on someone and at the end of our meeting he shook my hand.
It was a most unusual handshake and I thought that first of all he had a problem like arthritis but that evening I started to wonder.
Anyway first thing in the morning I had a phone call and the person calling said that he was calling on behalf of this person "who was in the same association as he was"
I knew this caller to be the Grand Master of a local lodge and he was calling to try to help his fellow brother out of his predicament.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 26, 2010, 01:18:19 pm
A handshake does not  neccessarily mean that a person is a Freemason.   Many Freemasons have shaken hands with people who have given them a "Masonic" handshake, but who by the use of one or two words, were found not to be Freemasons.     

Also just for the record the only person correctly refered to as "Grand Master" is HRH The Duke of Kent, KG who is the figurehead of the United Grand Lodge of England (which also incorporates Wales).  The person who leads local Lodges is known simply as The Worshipful Master (of the Lodge).     Each Province has a Provincial Grand Master and we are in the Province of North Wales.     
*&(
More available on the Internet for those interested.   $thanx$
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2010, 04:25:49 pm
Believe me Yorkie, he was a Freemason as was the leader of the local lodge (whatever his title is)     
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on October 26, 2010, 05:46:15 pm
Also just for the record the only person correctly refered to as "Grand Master" is HRH The Duke of Kent, KG who is the figurehead of the United Grand Lodge of England (which also incorporates Wales). 

Grand Master Flash must be the figurehead of the United Grand Lodge of America then.  :-X
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on October 26, 2010, 11:37:53 pm
What a load of sinister, symbolic, hand-shaking, apron-wearing, grand-mastering, archaic, ridiculous, out-dated crap.

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on October 27, 2010, 08:18:46 am
Quote
What a load of sinister, symbolic, hand-shaking, apron-wearing, grand-mastering, archaic, ridiculous, out-dated crap

That's no way to talk about the House of Lords, Fester...



 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on October 27, 2010, 08:32:06 am
Quote
What a load of sinister, symbolic, hand-shaking, apron-wearing, grand-mastering, archaic, ridiculous, out-dated crap

That's no way to talk about the House of Lords, Fester...

 _))* _))* _))*

 L0L
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on October 27, 2010, 09:18:49 am
What a load of sinister, symbolic, hand-shaking, apron-wearing, grand-mastering, archaic, ridiculous, out-dated crap.



 _))* _))* _))* Get the feeling you don't like them !! Wonder why !!?
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 30, 2010, 07:51:52 am
  A postman, on his route, picked up a letter from a mailbox that was addressed to God.  The postman seeing that the letter was not sealed, and there being no postage on it, opened and read it.
    It was from a man who was down on his luck and was asking God for help.  The letter asked for $50 to get his family through the next week.
    The postman, being a Mason, took the letter to Lodge that evening, read it, and asked for donations for the unfortunate fellow.  The Masons, wanting to help, took up a collection, and received twenty five dollars from the brethren.  The Secretary placed the cash in a Lodge envelope, and gave it to the postman to deliver the following day, which he did.
    Another day passed, and the postman again found an unsealed letter in the mailbox addressed to God.  Again he opened and read the letter, which thanked God for the money, but instructed him to send it through the Knights of Columbus next time as the Masons kept half.
 L0L  L0L  L0L
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on October 30, 2010, 08:47:14 am
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 28, 2011, 09:42:11 pm
THE MISSING MASONIC CHILD ABUSER

http://www.rebeccatelevision.com/articles/missing_01 (http://www.rebeccatelevision.com/articles/missing_01)

When former Birmingham police officer Raymond Ketland parked his car on a North Wales beach in 2005 a group of men walked by.

Raymond Ketland: the retired detective sergeant who joined a ring of men sexually abusing a young girl.
One of the group saw 66-year-old Ketland and walked over to him.

At his trial, prosecution barrister Andrew Thomas said Ketland told police he recognised this man as a member of the masonic lodge he belonged to. The mason asked: “Do you want to have a bit of fun?”

He pointed to a girl who was with the group. Ketland decided to join in the “fun”.

A TALE OF TWO VERSIONS

A TALE OF TWO VERSIONS

This is a highly unusual tale.

A former police officer admits joining a sex ring that is abusing a young girl and goes to prison.

He says a fellow mason introduced him to the ring.

The prosecution at his trial say he told police the mason is a member of his lodge.

Raymond Ketland: told REBECCA that if we could find the missing masonic child abuser he would give evidence against him …
But when REBECCA starts asking questions he says that the prosecution in his case has got it wrong.

The missing mason is a provincial officer, he insists.

The police now claim that "initial and more recent inquiries" reveal  "that there is no connection with any Masonic lodge in North  Wales."

What does this actually mean?

Does it mean that they accept that Ketland's version of events is true? But if his account is correct, and the missing masonic child abuser is a provincial officer, then police can't rule out the possibility that he's a member of the North Wales province. If he is, then he must be a member of a North Wales lodge...

Or if they know for certain that he's not a member of the North Wales province, why not say so?

And why will they not explain why they did not go to see the masons until after REBECCA began asking questions?

The police say they "will not release any further information in relation to this case as we firmly believe it will serve no policing purpose."


Why does that reply feel so unsatisfactory?
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 28, 2011, 10:16:01 pm
I wonder why Mr Ketland decided to walk his dog on Llanddulas beach when he lived many miles away in the Conwy Valley?  :roll:
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 29, 2011, 12:22:49 am
ERIC (MARK) CRAVEN, 47, Penmaenmawr
Charges: admitted 4 charges of sexual activity with a child, 2 charges of taking indecent photographs and 1 charge of inciting a child to engage in sexual activity
Sentence: 4 years
Sex offenders register: life

I remember this geezer - he's from Conwy originally.

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 29, 2011, 12:32:23 am
A Child abuser is on the loose in North Wales. He’s a freemason.

A retired police detective is the man who says so. The former policeman is also an abuser who was caught and gaoled.

Both men were members of a child abuse ring organised by a man who had previously attacked and seriously injured two women and got away with murdering another.

REBECCA asks if the police – and the masons – have done enough to track down the missing mason.

I was wondering if any forum members who are Masons, have any information regarding this missing mason?

Or is it a secret?

Come to think of it, it's a pity PC Smith does not post anymore. Perhaps he could have shed some light on this mystery.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 29, 2011, 08:55:37 am
No information from this quarter but then again when walking around the street a Freemason looks just the same as any other person, unless he is on his way to a Lodge Meeting and carrying his little case!

On the other hand there are probaly paedophiles who are Buffs, Rotarians, Tablers, Golf Club Members, or Members of any one of thousands of other clubs and societies around the country.

No doubt in this case the Police will do their stuff and bring the offender to book, Freemason or not!  And such a person would definitely not be shielded by his fellow Freemasons.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Llechwedd on June 29, 2011, 12:28:32 pm
Someone told me that there are seven lodges in Llandudno and others travel to Manchester for their meetings because the lodges are full.  They do a terriffic amount of work for charity and help widows educate their children etc.  I know nothing else just don't like the idea of you branding them all paedophiles.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 29, 2011, 02:05:14 pm
I have just watched the video on the Rebecca web site and it concerns me that there is a reluctance by North Wales Province to provide a Directory of their membership lists to libraries and also to journalists when requested, which their fellow-brethren in South Wales do not have a problem with.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 29, 2011, 02:39:34 pm
Someone told me that there are seven lodges in Llandudno and others travel to Manchester for their meetings because the lodges are full.  They do a terriffic amount of work for charity and help widows educate their children etc.  I know nothing else just don't like the idea of you branding them all paedophiles.

Who has been branding them ALL as paedophiles?  ???
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 29, 2011, 02:41:53 pm
I have just watched the video on the Rebecca web site and it concerns me that there is a reluctance by North Wales Province to provide a Directory of their membership lists to libraries and also to journalists when requested, which their fellow-brethren in South Wales do not have a problem with.

Yes, it's as if some people have something to hide.  ???
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on June 29, 2011, 02:55:01 pm
Good old Oscar has posted on his blog about the subject:

Powerful stuff on the website being pointed to, of course one of the paedophiles named and jailed was Ray Foulkes, who readers will remember was the man housed by Conwy Council in a heavily family orientated cul de sac in Llandudno.
I got into trouble for that because I made it public because where he was housed was full of young children, he was also a drunk and in my opinion that made the children high risk.
He was subsequently re housed after allegedly painting his own windows and blaming others, he also had a soft toy in his window, normal behaviour?
Nah.
The web site below names a local Masonic Lodge as been the alleged lodge of a member of this most foul ring of paedophiles.

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 29, 2011, 03:47:02 pm
Actually there are 11 Lodges in Llandudno and many more over the rest of North Wales.
This is the Web site of the North Wales Provincial Grand Lodge and there is lots of information, so as you see there are no great secrets.   

http://www.nwmasons.org/index.html (http://www.nwmasons.org/index.html)

The PGL is subject to the requirements of the Data Protection Act and therefore cannot publish names of all individuals.

There are also other "Lodges" that follow on from the Craft Lodges but Membership of these require Membership of a Craft Lodge.   If you Google Freemasonry, or Secret Society or similar words you will discover that there are over 2000 Organisations and Societies around the World, America being the greatest contributor to such groups.   They even have Junior organisations for the kids!    ;)

Within Llandudno there are also lots of folk who have been initiated into Freemasonry but for one reason or another have given it up.  Often these are the ones who sometimes choose to be critical of Freemasonry and Freemasons. :twoface:
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 29, 2011, 06:07:06 pm
The PGL is subject to the requirements of the Data Protection Act and therefore cannot publish names of all individuals.

Yorkie, the Data Protection Act is 13 years old and the video I watched this morning on the Rebecca web site clearly stated that not one freemason in South Wales objected to their directory being placed in libraries and to also provide a directory to any journalist who requested one.

FYI, it was their PGL Secretary who made that statement.

Therefore, it seems whether or not to be more open and transparent must be down to individual PGL's.

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 29, 2011, 06:10:42 pm
Within Llandudno there are also lots of folk who have been initiated into Freemasonry but for one reason or another have given it up.  Often these are the ones who sometimes choose to be critical of Freemasonry and Freemasons. :twoface:
I've certainly never been a member, nor ever would be. I lost interest in secret societies at about the age of 13.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 29, 2011, 06:46:56 pm
The PGL is subject to the requirements of the Data Protection Act and therefore cannot publish names of all individuals.

Yorkie, the Data Protection Act is 13 years old and the video I watched this morning on the Rebecca web site clearly stated that not one freemason in South Wales objected to their directory being placed in libraries and to also provide a directory to any journalist who requested one.

FYI, it was their PGL Secretary who made that statement.

Therefore, it seems whether or not to be more open and transparent must be down to individual PGL's.

As you say that was SOUTH Wales.  The situation in North Wales could be somewhat different, but I would be surprised if 100% of South Wales' Freemasons would actually do it if push came to shove!  The Members make the decisions, not the PG Master, Secretary or PGL.

There are, of course some published documents that are readily available.  These are the Annual Provincial Year Books that list all the Lodges in the Province and give names and position of the Officers in each Lodge.  However, the rest of the Members are not named, but presumably could be if their permission was sought and granted.

Apart from the full list of names of all Members, Freemasonry is generally open and transparent.

I wonder if the Police would publish all the names and details of their officers, ditto many other groups and organisations.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 30, 2011, 07:39:56 am
Quote
I lost interest in secret societies at about the age of 13.

So that's a no to the MI6 job, then?   WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 30, 2011, 08:14:31 am
One point I forgot to mention in my last post (2 above) was that any list would be out of date the day it was published, as indeed are most subscription and membership lists.   The membership is constantly changing with new members being added, others leaving, some passing away, some moving etc. etc.  It would be a full time job keeping them up to date - and if they were up to date what constructive purpose would they actually serve? 

Perhaps someone would care to answer the last question!   WWW

A register of every persons DNA taken at birth would be more sensible.  ;)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 05, 2011, 10:57:44 am
Oscar has done some 'digging'.

KETLAND’S MASONRY

RAYMOND KETLAND belonged to the Lodge of St Hilary which meets at Freemasons Hall in Llandudno. He also belonged to the Royal Arch chapter, Gogarth. Ketland and the North Wales Police insist that the missing abuser is not a member of this lodge. REBECCA is including this list because it is more up to date than the entry in the Masonic Directory. The combined alphabetical list of all 70 members is as follows:

S P Adamski
B R Allport
W K Arch
L M Ashley
J Atkinson
A H Baker
N V C Bannerman
A V Basil
M S Beard
S P Beardmore
D M Birchley
R Bland
R S Bleakley
J S Boole
A M Burns
N V C Campbell-Bannerman
C J W Challinor
R Cheetham
H Collinge
H Cromie
I G Dickinson
I A Dickson
D E Eardley
D H Eaves
D K Evans
B Geeson
D J Gibbison
B W Goldsmith
E D Greenhalgh
M B Hill
R G Holden
L Hughes
M A Irons
R H Irons
D E James
G E Jayes
D A Jones
M L Jones
A M Jones
K L Jones
P M Jones
J K Kirrage
E Lof
C E Masterson
S Michael
N M Morris
J P Owen
P J Owen
C S Owen
G O’Brien
T Parry
E G Quiney
D A Randall
D E Rees
K Rimmer
V J Rimmington
B E Roberts
G D Roberts
D K Roberts
A J Smith
R J Spear
P J Thompson
M W Thompson
D J C Vickers
J O Weedon
B Westaway-Green
P M Williams
G O Williams
P A Williams
J E Wynne
Title: Custodes Pacis fact or fiction?
Post by: crd on August 12, 2011, 09:04:28 am
Thanks to this forum I was directed to Rebecca Television
After reading a particular article I find it hard to believe this to be factual it makes reference to Custodes Pacis a police only Masonic lodge in Llandudno, surely this can’t be true!
I thought the police had to be impartial in their duty to the public it seems to me if this lodge did exist it could cloud some decisions that were made in favor of other members of this society.
Can any members confirm the existence of this lodge

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 12, 2011, 10:18:59 am
Yes I can!   There is certainly such a Lodge as Custodis Pacis which was set up mainly for serving or retired members of ANY police service.  Although I do not know for certain most Lodges formed in such a way normally do allow people to join who have not been associated with the employment category and I do not believe CP is any different.

My own Mother Lodge was formed originally of Commercial Travellers and because of their travelling during the week, the Lodge met on a Saturday.   We did allow anyone of good character to join the Lodge irrespective of their employment.   As the Lodge had been originally formed in the 1800's one can understand the reasoning and change in focus.

Just to give you more information there are also, Lodges for almost all Trades and Callings, there are Army Lodges, Navy Lodges, RAF Lodges, even Council Lodges, and Old School Lodges.  A good search of the Internet for Masonic and quasi Masonic matters will reveal a pletora of information.

Before you start looking, I am not a Member of any North Wales Lodge.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: crd on August 12, 2011, 11:19:01 am
Thanks for the info Yorkie
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Quiggs on August 12, 2011, 05:26:30 pm
I joined as a serving a member  of Custodis Pacis Lodge in the 90's and was the only one who had not been a Police officer. all the others were Retired Officers. As a serving member my duties were to prepare the Lodge Room prior to the meeting and general cleaning duties etc.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: crd on August 12, 2011, 07:19:10 pm
thanks for the info that all the officers are retired from the force
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 12, 2011, 07:38:58 pm
Don't be left with the impression that all Police Lodges are comprised of retired Officers.  I know (knew) many serving Police Officers who were Lodge Members.  In my own Lodge, which was not a Police Lodge, we had 2 serving officers out of a total of 30 Members.  I cannot speak definitely for CP but it would be unlikely just to be retired folk.

One interesting web site is that of Mother Killwinning Lodge No. 0 the very first Masonic Lodge in Scotland.   It can be found here http://www.mk0.com/index.htm (http://www.mk0.com/index.htm)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Micox on August 13, 2011, 06:23:34 pm
I started the original Freemasonry thread on the old site. I asked because of some very dubious but unprovable experiences, probably involving freemasons, when working as a social worker in Flintshire/Clwyd Social Services 1973 - 5. As a pointer I cited some of the instances in the North Wales Child Abuse Inquiry in the 1990s. Those contributions should be found and copied here.

Heddwch.

Mike. 
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 13, 2011, 07:14:20 pm
There are good and bad in all organisations and groups and Freemasonry is not exempt.    I have known many very good people in Freemasonry and I have also met some bad ones.  The same goes for Golf Clubs, RAOB, Lions, Councils, Parliament, Doctors, Nurses, Policemen, the Clergy, and every other organisation you can think of.   It just happens that some groups attract more attention than others or they happen to be the "flavour of the month".

Micox said: " I asked because of some very dubious but unprovable experiences, probably involving freemasons, when working as a social worker in Flintshire/Clwyd Social Services 1973 - 5. As a pointer I cited some of the instances in the North Wales Child Abuse Inquiry in the 1990s. Those contributions should be found and copied here."

The words "unprovable experiences, probably involving freemasons" say it all.  There was obviously no substance to the matters and why Freemasons should be tarnished by things that are unprovable or merely probabilities is tantamount to victimisation.  If proof were available then let those who are proved guilty be punished accordingly whether they be Freemasons or not.   WWW
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Micox on August 15, 2011, 06:22:05 pm
Very biblical Yorkie. There is a difference between fact that can't be evidenced and something that 'isn't true because it can't be proved.' things are never black and white.  :-*
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 15, 2011, 06:55:48 pm
Apart from Minstrels!    ;)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 15, 2011, 10:57:33 pm
 :laugh: :laugh: L0L

Ooops, sorry Yorkie, you said recently that you don't like it when people just add a laughing icon (or somesuch) to a post.
But I couldn't resist it this time,  that last reply cracked me up.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 16, 2011, 07:09:05 am
 ;)

It's the way I tell 'em!   At least you added a few words!
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 09, 2012, 10:26:44 pm
Possibly not the right thread for my enquiry, but then again..... it might be.

My daughter recently bought a necklace / pendant at a table top sale.
Two pictures of it are attached below.
The style of it and the inscription intrigued her, and now me.

It bears the inscription;
CATH: B.V.M TRV-RON ECC:    which apparently says Blessed virgin Mary and Catholic Church.

Other Forums claim that there is a connection with The Knights Templar.

My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.

Does any Forum member recognise this article, or something similar?
Any information would be appreciated.


Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on April 09, 2012, 10:29:06 pm
My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.
I hope she had the gumption to take the money and run!
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: dwsi on April 10, 2012, 12:12:06 am
Possibly not the right thread for my enquiry, but then again..... it might be.

My daughter recently bought a necklace / pendant at a table top sale.
Two pictures of it are attached below.
The style of it and the inscription intrigued her, and now me.

It bears the inscription;
CATH: B.V.M TRV-RON ECC:    which apparently says Blessed virgin Mary and Catholic Church.

Other Forums claim that there is a connection with The Knights Templar.

My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.

Does any Forum member recognise this article, or something similar?
Any information would be appreciated.

http://bit.ly/HvJpw7 (http://bit.ly/HvJpw7)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 10, 2012, 12:58:46 am
Thanks Dwsi,

A lot of conjecture on that forum.... but other than masonic connections, no definitive answer.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on April 10, 2012, 08:30:49 am
Personally I do not think it has anything to do with Freemasonry, particular;ly if it has Catholic connections.  See:

"The (Catholic) Church has prohibited its members from being Freemasons since In Eminenti Apostolatus in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has issued several papal bulls banning membership of Catholics from Freemasonry under threat of excommunication. Currently, as reiterated in 1983, Catholics who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion;[1] the penalty of excommunication is not declared in the current code of canon law, but membership remains forbidden.[2] The prohibition is often ignored by Catholic Masons who continue receiving the sacraments."

However, I am interested in what it may represent and will delve further.

I hope the £2000.00 was genuine!     ZXZ
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on April 10, 2012, 01:21:35 pm
The inscription is in slightly the wrong order - it is (I think)

ECC:CATH  = Eclesiastica Catholica  = Catholic Church

B.V.M = Blessed Virgin Mary

TRV-RON =  I cannot find any reference except that it may be something to do with Orders of Friars or Druids - e.g. Ordinis Fratrum Minorum.   I am intrigued and will continue looking but am surprised that there is no firm indication of what these letters signify.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: dwsi on April 10, 2012, 06:57:59 pm
the cross is known as a cross patonce

A cross patonce is more or less intermediate between a cross pattée and a cross flory (or fleury). The ends of its limbs are trifurcated into leaf shapes, and seems to come in two sorts: one where the limbs are the same width all along as in the coat of Godfrey McCance Gransden ; and the other where the limbs gently widen from the centre (but do not curve) as in the coat of John Chiu  (both of Canada). A mediaeval example is shown on the seal of William de Fortibus(d.1260)

http://bit.ly/Hzizkj (http://bit.ly/Hzizkj)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 11, 2012, 01:26:12 am
Yorkie and Dwsi,  Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this.

I am most interested to learn more about it.

I have emailed the link to this topic to my daughter, so she can keep up to date on what is discovered.
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: outlawowl on April 11, 2012, 10:28:04 am
Hi
This one takes me back to my school days. breviarium in latin means short or concise and BVM is a shorter way of writing it. It is used to refer to a concise book of prayers, hymns etc used by the Catholic faith......
So, BVM may not mean Blessed Virgin Mary.
Also, although the square cross (usually referred to a a Quadrate) is similiar to a Templar cross, these type of crosses have been in use by a number of organisations across history.
Thought to represent not the crucifiction cross but to represent apostles being sent to the four corners of the world.
Hopes this helps (or confuses even more)
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on April 11, 2012, 08:14:11 pm
You are quite correct that BVM could be interpreted as you say but I do not think it would used as such on the reverse of the token or medal depicted.   Most areas that I have researched so far are all translating BVM as Blessed Virgin Mary or Bless Virgin Mary which would make some sense.  Some also have an inscription CAP which is an abbreviation for Call a Priest.

I am no further with the TRV-RON - I think a call to the Boolean or Ashmolean Library in Oxford may assist with an answer.   
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 11, 2012, 11:54:47 pm
Curiouser and curiouser....  $thanx$
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on April 12, 2012, 01:53:32 pm
 >>>All I can say is that this someone mentioned by your daughter must well and truly know "something" that none of us do
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on April 12, 2012, 10:27:52 pm
The one positive reference to TVR-RON I have found seems to be connected with Wiccan Covens and specifically with one person.  It's an avenue to follow and has certain Masonic references and symbols but no firm indication of what the letters refer to.   This makes me wonder if the BVM may also have another meaning.  I plod on!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 12, 2012, 10:56:19 pm
All this investigation is much appreciated.
My daughter emailed me tonight to express that same gratitude.  She is following this thread.

I would not like to think that my daughter would sell this item for a pittance when it may well have some kind of importance.

However, we are both aware that it could turn out to be worth little or nothing.

Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 13, 2012, 07:08:51 am
Have you thought of sending a detailed picture to some large auction houses for an opinion? If it is valuable they should know. Let's hope so!
Title: Re: Freemasonry in Llandudno
Post by: Micox on September 25, 2023, 04:38:15 pm
From the middle distance I believed Freemasonry was involved in the Waterhouse Inquiry into Child abuse in North Wales. They continuously denied it but the subsequent Judicial Report, The Macur Report underlined some of the suspicions saying many of N Wales police officers were Freemasons and at least one was involved with child abuse. I understand that officer later died in prison.