Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: mull on February 13, 2019, 04:14:23 am

Title: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 13, 2019, 04:14:23 am
Good morning Helig and Hugo.

About 1980 my father tried to trace his mothers family but being before the computer age he could not get very far. Can you help please ?

His mother was Catherine Jane Williams born 25 October 1883, Seaview Terrace, Conwy.
He had the marriage certificate of Robert Williams to Sarah Ellen Evans in Carmel Chapel,Conwy, 17 June 1880.
There is a note that both Robert and Sarah were born in 1855. He must have had a view of the1861 census but the details are incomplete.
Llangelynin ( address ot shown) Robert
                                               Edward
                                               Lydia
Llangernyw ( address not shown ) Sarah Ellen.

Would the census give the address  or are the locations very small.

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 13, 2019, 09:32:38 am
I guess this is open for anyone to reply?
So i had a quick look on family search and found this. Often there are transcription
 errors
but it looks a possibiliity.... I don't subscribe to pay sites like Ancestry, FMP anymore, but you would need to see the original to confirm .
Keep scrolling down!
Sarah Ellin Evans
England and Wales Census, 1861





Name:   Sarah Ellin Evans
County:   Denbighshire
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1861
Event Place:   Llangerniew, Denbighshire, Wales
Ecclesiastical Parish:   St Asaph
Registration District:   Llanrwst
Residence Note:   Gerddi Gleision
Gender:   Female
Age:   6
Relationship to Head of Household:   Granddaughter
Birth Year (Estimated):   1855
Birthplace:   Liverpool,
Page Number:   2
Registration Number:   RG09
Piece/Folio:   4305 / 39
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Evan Evans   Head   Male   63   Llangerniew, Denbighshire
Ellin Evans   Wife   Female   63   Bettws, Denbighshire
Sarah Ellin Evans   Granddaughter   Female   6   Liverpool,
Margret Jones   Granddaughter   Female   2   Llangerniew, Denbighshire
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 13, 2019, 11:14:25 am
Hello Mull,

I have found Sarah Ellin Evans in the 1861 census and it is the same one as Rhuddlan has given before.

The place they were living is shown as the Township of Rhan Hir and Llangerniew. The address isn't given as such, just house names all through the page. Their house name appears to be Gerddi Gleision. The second word isn't very clear at all. The household consists of the following;

Evan Evans, Head, age 63, married, Labourer 5 acres, born Denbighshire, Llangerniew.
Ellin Evans, wife, age 63, born Denbighshire, Bettws.
Sarah Ellin Evans, granddaughter, age 6, born Liverpool.
Margaret Jones, granddaughter, age 2, born Denbighshire, Llangerniew.

The house next to them has another family by the name of Evans living in it. The next house along to that has a Jones family living there.

Do you still have the marriage certificate for Robert and Sarah? You could order it if not. The reference for this is: March quarter 1880, Conwy Registration District, Vol 11b Page 613.

There are a few Family Trees on Ancestyr for the family of Evan Evans. He is shown as being born in 1796 in Llangerniew. Marriage in 01/02/1823, Bettws yn Rhos, to Eleanor Davies. Details: Evan Evans of Llangerniew Bach Lab x son of William Evans deceased to Eleanor Davies x Spin of Bettws yn Rhos, daughter of David Davies of Frith Bach Bettws and Catherine his wife, formerly Hughes on 1 February 1823.

Evan Evans was buried on  4 April 1866 and is shown as of Gerddi Gleision in Llangerniew.

The 1851 census shows Evan Evans living in Gerddi Gleision, Llangerniew, age 54, with Elin, age 54, and a son David, age 23, born Llangerniew.

The tree on Ancestry shows that Evan Evans had the following children:

David Evans born 1828, baptised 13 April 1828, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Sarah Evans b1830, baptised 20 June 1830, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Elizabeth Evans b1833, baptised 24 February 1833, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Grace Evans b1835, baptised 10 May 1835, of Rhos y Gwyddel.
Ellis Evans b1837. Baptised 6 August 1837 of Rhos y Gwyddel.

Sarah Ellin Evans must descend from one of the two sons shown.

While the accuracy of trees on Ancestry cannot be guaranteed the information given appears to be based on sources given and can be taken as reasonably reliable.

Helig



Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 13, 2019, 11:31:55 am
Eleanor/Ellinor/Elinor Davies is shown as baptised 27 August 1796 of Frith Bach, Bettws yn Rhos. Daughter of David Davies of Cilcen Township and Catherine his wife.

She survived her husband, Evan, and was living at Gerddi Gleision in the 1871 census. She is a widow and aged 75. It shows she had a small farm of 4 acres. Her granddaughter, Margaret Evans, age 12, is living with her and Margaret was born Llangerniew.

Helig

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 13, 2019, 12:53:29 pm
Wow Helig,  your computer must be red hot with all that info that you have been able to obtain today.   There is a lot of info obtained and a lot for Mull to digest up there on the island.
I'm like Rhuddlan and do not subscribe to any sites but the only thing I can add at this stage is regarding David Davies and Sarah Ellin Evans.
Firstly  the Cilcen township, could that actually be Cilcain in Flintshire?
Secondly regarding Sarah Ellin Evans,  in actual fact all five children could be Sarah's parents but in those dark days if a single girl got pregnant then they used to send them away until they had the child and then brought them back to live with the family.     So Elizabeth, Sarah or Grace were old enough to have children.
As Sarah Ellin Evans was born in 1855 there will be a birth certificate for her and that should show the mother's name and possibly the father's too
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 13, 2019, 05:36:19 pm
Thank you Rhuddlan, Helig and Hugo for your help with this.

This is a great forum for information.

I have got a copy of the Marriage certificate for Robert Williams and Sarah Ellen Evans, 17 Jan 1880.

Both age 25 years.
Roberts occupation is Labourer.

Sarah occupation is Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel, Conwy.

Witnesses are Edward and Lydia Williams presumably Roberts brother and sister.


I have had another look through my fathers papers and have come up with the following,

Robert died 5 June 1929, and Sarah died 17 March 1925.


There is a note from the chapel records in Conwy that they lived in Seaview Terrace until 1883. In 1885 the address is Penmaen bach ??

In 1886 Robert Williams and family moved from Conwy but unfortunately the record does not show their destination.


The 1861 census for Llangelynin has Robert 6 years, Edward ? years, Lydia ? years.

Looking on the OS Map places look very spread out with few properties.  Would it be possible to find an address ?


This was started by Helig mentioning about a railway family connection with Llandudno. It was the same with my fathers family and I will post more on this later.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 13, 2019, 08:10:42 pm

There is a note from the chapel records in Conwy that they lived in Seaview Terrace until 1883. In 1885 the address is Penmaen bach ??
In 1886 Robert Williams and family moved from Conwy but unfortunately the record does not show their destination.
The 1861 census for Llangelynin has Robert 6 years, Edward ? years, Lydia ? years.

Looking on the OS Map places look very spread out with few properties.  Would it be possible to find an address ?
This was started by Helig mentioning about a railway family connection with Llandudno. It was the same with my fathers family and I will post more on this later.


Mull, Penmaenbach was only a small community in those days but they seem to have left there before the 1871 Census so that doesn't help much but something may turn up in the meantime

As for Llangelynin that's a widespread but small community on Conwy mountain but the Baptism records if there are any may give a name for the property.    Lots of these old Welsh properties have kept there original names so you might be lucky there.

I'll have a look in the Archives if the answer hasn't been found by next week
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 13, 2019, 11:19:20 pm
Thanks Hugo.
Plenty to look at for the time being. I will let you know if I find out more.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 14, 2019, 10:40:57 am
Morning Hugo and Mull,

Firstly to reply to Hugo's post about Cilcen/Cilcain etc. I doubted that they were the same townships but a look at Genuki shows that are the same. Bettws yn Rhos is in Cilcen township: https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/BetwsynRhos (https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/BetwsynRhos)

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Cilcain/CilcainGaz1868 (https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/FLN/Cilcain/CilcainGaz1868)

I was thinking about Sarah Evans last night and came to the same conclusion as you, Hugo. She could well have been an illegitimate daughter of one of the daughters of Evan Evans. That would explain why she is with her grandparents in the 1861 census. I tried to find a birth registration for her but there are numerous ones for Sarah Evans around 1855. I am not sure which registration district covers Llangernyw.

I found Robert Williams in the 1911 census and details are as follows:

Address: 9 Council St, Llandudno.

Robert Williams, married, age 56, Labourer, Urban District Council. Born Conwy. Welsh and English speaking.
Sarah Ellen Williams, age 55, born Llangerniew. Speaks Welsh and English.
Edith Williams, single, neice (sic) age 20, Dressmaker, born Liverpool. Speaks Welsh and English.

The census shows they have been married for 32 years, had 6 children born alive and 3 died.

They are in 9 Council St, Llandudno, in the 1901 census too.

Details are as follows:

Robert Williams, married, age 46, Council Labourer, born Conwy.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 44, born Lancs, Bury.
John Evan Williams, son, single, age 19, Upholsterer, born Conwy.
Catherine Williams, daughter, age 17, born Conwy.
Robert Williams, son, age 11, born Conwy.
Edith Williams, daughter, age 10, born Liverpool.
Walter Nulton, Lodger, age 26, Rivetter, born Yorks.
Harold Bailey, Lodger, age 18, Plater, born Yorks.

All the Williams family were bi lingual.

In the 1891 census they are living in Broughton, near Salford. The address is 45 Woodland St, Salford.

Robert Williams, married, age 36, married, General Labourer, born Conwy.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 36, born Llangerniew.
John E Williams, son, age 9, born Conwy.
Catherine J Williams, daughter, age 7, born Conwy.
Robert Williams, son, age 1, born Conwy.

1881 census, address 1 Seaview Terrace, Conwy.

Robert Williams, married, age 26, General Labourer, born Langelynin, Caerns.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 25, born Llangerniew.

I am trying to find Robert in earlier census returns but it is proving difficult.

Helig.






Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 14, 2019, 03:10:10 pm
Helig,  that's another bit of fascinating info you have unearthed.  I had never heard of Cilcen before and it's one of those ancient townships that you never hear of nowadays.
The Cilcain I mentioned was much further east and nothing to do with Betws Yn Rhos.    The Cilcen by Betws Yn Rhos has at least two properties called Ffrith Bach so I don't know which is the correct one.
One Ffrith Bach is very near Llangernyw but whether this is the one I can't say for sure.
Anyway, I've attached some links to Cilcen & Ffrith Bach

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/BetwsynRhos (https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/BetwsynRhos)

https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/d46e81a8-5940-4707-8327-a8c0225f7f36 (https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames/recordedname/d46e81a8-5940-4707-8327-a8c0225f7f36)


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 14, 2019, 03:43:17 pm

I've not made any progress in finding the birth registration for Sarah.Ellen . her birthplace seems to change with each census. I would add that although registration of BDM started in 1837 it did not become mandatory till much later.
However I played about with the property name and found this link (which incidentally is bilingual). It seems to refer to a later occupant
but right at the bottom there is a picture of the property.(which incidentally reminded me of the old property my parents used to own on Anglesey which Hugo may recall from a walk there some years ago)
I hope it helps.

http://www.sirhenryjonesmuseum.co.uk/English/images/John%20Owen.pdf (http://www.sirhenryjonesmuseum.co.uk/English/images/John%20Owen.pdf)
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 14, 2019, 05:11:21 pm
A bit of TLC and a new roof and it might remind me of the property in Llangernyw        ;D


I'm having the same problem looking for Sarah Ellin Evans as you are Rhuddlan and had various places such as Bury and Chorlton coming up,  so I'll have a go in the Archives asap
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 14, 2019, 10:03:59 pm
Things are coming together.

Thanks Helig for all you are finding out.

Going back to the early 1900s the number of visitors coming to holiday resorts in the summer season meant the railway companies had to draft in staff to handle the volume of traffic. This went on all over the UK into the 1950s and in my younger days I worked with one chap who used to work on the Clyde Steamers for the summer season.

I understand that my Taid who lived in Crewe was drafted into help out for the summer season. He was Edward Hadkinson Davies , born
16 December 1885, 8 Ramsbottom Street, Crewe. This must have been a popular posting for young men at that time and I wonder if he lodged in Council Street in the late 1900s. He and my Nain, Catherine Jane, married and when my father was born in 1912 he was  Station Inspector in Crewe. His later career took him to Station Master at Fiddlers Ferry, Balshaw Lane/Euxton,Sandhills/Kikdale Liverpool were he retired.
The railway conection continued , they had a daughter Olive. In the 1930s Olive married a signalman at Edge Hill who in the late 1950s moved to Colwyn Bay as Station Inspector. He later worked at other stations including Rhyl. I believe they lived in the cottages alongside the railway line about 1/2 mile east of Llandudno Junction.

Thanks again for all the information you have come up wth.


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 15, 2019, 02:28:22 pm
I am still trying to find Robert Williams in the 1861 and 1871 census returns.

It is interesting to read of your railway ancestors, Mull. I reckon that Olive and her husband would have known some of my relations. My mother went to Colwyn Bay at times. She knew someone who worked there for years. I remember him and his family who lived in St Seiriol's Road, Llandudno. His name was Glyn Goodyear. I wonder if Hugo recalls this family?

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 15, 2019, 03:10:04 pm
There is a baptism in Llangelynin for a Robert Williams, son of William Williams and Margaret, date shown is 26 January 1853.

Genuki is interesting on Llangelynin:

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangelynin (https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangelynin)

There are a few Family Trees on Ancestry for Robert Williams bc1855. None has details of his parents.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 15, 2019, 07:03:23 pm
Has the Baptism record got an address Helig?
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 16, 2019, 10:47:21 am
No, there is nothing shown other than Llangelynin, names of parents and date. I haven't see  the parish register, this is a transcription on Ancestry and Freereg.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 16, 2019, 11:41:00 am
I found an Edward Williams, born Llangelynin, in census returns for 1841 and 1851. It shows he was born 1839, in Llangelynin. In 1841 he is living in Pwllyrnoch, Llangelynin, in the household of John and Mary Roberts, both age 60 and John shown as Farmer. Cannot find him in 1851 but he seems to be in Llechan, Caerns in 1861. A servant in the household of David Griffiths, Farmer of 24 acres.He is aged 22 and born Llangelynin.

In the 1871 what appears to be the same Edward Williams is living in Pool Lane, Conwy, age 31 and a Mason, born Llangelynin. He is married to Lydia, age 29, born Salatyn, Shropshire (???). They have 3 daughters, Margaret (6), Mary (3) and Ann(1), all born Conwy.

1881 Edward Williams is living in 7 Pool Lane, Conwy, age 42, a Stonemason, born Conwy.
Lydia Williams, wife, age 40, born Oswestry, Shropshire.

They have children, Mary (13), Ann (11), Edward Smith Williams (9), John Robert Williams (7) William James Williams (4) all born Conwy.

It is worth considering as it has the names of Edward and Lydia, together with the Llangelynin/Conwy connection. Were Edward and Lydia his parents? There could be a marriage for them in St Asaph, RD in 1863. Edward Williams married Lydia Thomas. It is a bit like clutching st straws but I cannot find any other Edward and Lydia with a Llangelynin connection.

Helig.


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 17, 2019, 05:36:00 pm
Helig, that's an interesting find and it also raises questions too.   If Edward was born in 1839 I wonder why he was living with John and Mary Roberts when he was only about 2 or 3 years old.
Pwll Y Moch  ( Eng.   Pool of the Pig )  seems to be still there and is not far from the Llanrwst Road but quite a way from the old Church of Llagelynin
Lydia is an unusual name so you could be right with your thoughts on Edward and Lydia
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 17, 2019, 06:09:18 pm
Lydia would appear to have been born a village near Oswestry called Selattyn ( rather than the spellling on the census).
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2019, 07:50:45 am
I've just had a quick look at this again and although there is a strong possibility that Edward Williams and Robert Williams were related,  I don't think that they could be father and son
Edward was born about 1839 and got married to Lydia Thomas in 1863 but Robert was born about 1855 so it's extremely unlikely that they are father and son.
The Llangelynin Baptism record may shed some light on the relationship
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 18, 2019, 09:35:53 am
Morning Hugo,

I agree about the relationship between Edward and Robert Williams. It is likely they were brothers. I think I had a senior moment on Saturday!

It has proved impossible to trace Robert Williams in census returns for 1861 and 1871. As Mull has the marriage certificate for Robert and Sarah, there should be the names of their fathers on this. Can you let me have the name of Robert's father on the marriage certificate please Mull?

I wonder whether Robert is with another family/person in earlier census returns.

Lydia is an unusual name in Wales as you have commented. It may help to trace them if necessary.

Helig

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 18, 2019, 11:15:35 am
Morning Helig,

Marriage certificate TWA 222909 No.118
Carmel Chapel, Conwy
17 Jan 1880  Robert Williams 25 Years, Bachelor, Labourer, Seaview Terrace,Conwy ,Fathers name, John Williams, Labourer

                   Sarah Ellen Evans ,25 years, Spinster, Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel Conwy, Father name and profession are Blank

Married in Carmel Chapel according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Calvanistic Methodists, Robert Hughes, Minister.

In the presence of Edward Williams, and X The mark of Lydia Williams.

My father must have seen the 1861 census for Llangelynin and notes following.  Notes not easy to follow or my be me being thick.
Robert Williams Age 6  ?
Edward             Age ?
Lydia                Age ?

Hope this helps.

Mull
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 18, 2019, 12:01:22 pm
Hello Mull,

Thank you for that information. I wondered if his father was named John as his first born son was given that name and it tends to be a naming pattern of first born son being named after the paternal father. I will have another search.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2019, 09:08:46 pm
Carmel Chapel Conwy
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 19, 2019, 10:25:10 am
I found a marriage in Llangelynin on Freereg. This was on 24 August 1839, John Williams to Mary Roberts. There are no other details shown in the transcription. It was the only marriage for a John Williams in Llangelynin in the period 1830-1860.

Could they have married in the bride's parish?

It could be of interest in view of Edward Williams being in the household of a family by the name of Roberts in the 1841 census.

Finding the family in a census for 1841, 1851 and 1861, is proving difficult.

Helig

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 19, 2019, 10:57:11 am
I have done a place search of Llangelynin in the 1861 census and there is no trace of Robert Williams there at all. This is the same for the other family members, John Williams etc.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 20, 2019, 10:00:07 am
I have done place searches of the 1861 census for Conwy. There are two districts and there is no trace of John Williams in District 1.

District 2 has a family living in Chapel St, Conwy. The head is John Williams age 32, married, Cabinet Maker, born Conwy. Also in the household: Ellen Williams, wife, age 28, "Anglesea person"; Ann J Williams, daughter, age 7, born Liverpool; Thomas Williams, age 5, son, born Liverpool; Alice Williams, daughter, age 3, born Conwy, and William Williams, age 1, son, born Conwy.

There is another John Williams living in Mount Pleasant. The household comprises:

John Williams, married, age 35, carter, born Anglesea Aberffraw.
Elizabeth Williams, wife, age 28, born Caerhun.
Hugh Williams, son, age 4, born Dwygyfylchi
Catherine Williams, daughter, age 1, born Dwygyfychi.
Martha Griffiths, niece, age 12, born Holyhead.

Still no trace of Robert!

I have been advised that the marriage certificate for Edward Williams to Lydia Thomas shows his father as John Williams, Labourer. A witness is shown as Elizabeth Williams.

Helig.


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 20, 2019, 10:19:39 am
There is a fit for Robert Williams in the 1861 census for Caerhun. The household is:

John Williams, Head, married age 62, Agricultural Labourer, born Caerhun.
Jane Williams, wife, age 60, born Gyffin.
Robert Williams, son, age 6, born Caerhun.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2019, 01:27:39 pm
I went to the Archives in Llandudno today and had a look at some of the records for Llangelynin and they have the Baptism, Marriage and burial records for Llangelynin from 1733 onwards and they are very interesting to look at.
I wanted to follow the direct line of John Williams according to the Marriage certificate that Mull has but I saw the Baptism record that Helig referred to on the 15th February 2019 and went off on a tangent as it was fascinating reading about the family.  Whether this Robert is related to John in the marriage certificate, I'm leaving it to Mull to pick out the bones of what I found today and I can always go back to the Archives to see the records again

This is what I found:-
The Burial Index for the old church of Llangelynin shows this entry at Grave No 6
Three children of William Williams Ty Gwyn Roe by Margaret his wife viz
Robert was buried Dec 26th 1836 aged 3 weeks
Grace was buried Dec 30th 1843 aged 4 years
Anne was buried June 2nd  1844 aged 3 years

The Burial Index for Llangelynin new church showed these details at Grave No B 07
Margaret wife of William Williams Ty Gwyn Roe died 8th Nov 1871 aged 58
Also
Catherine her daughter who died 7th April 1872 aged 17
Also
Robert her son who died 9th Feb 1855 aged 5 months
Also
William Williams her husband who died 19th December 1876 aged 66

Often in those early days children died very young and it was often a common practise to name a child after one that had died earlier and I think it's the case in this Williams family because this is a list of all the Baptisms I could find

Date                                   Name                         Parents                                       Abode                        Occupation
No 150   5th April 1833         Rowland                  William & Margaret Williams             Glynn                             Esquire
No 165  28th Nov 1835         Robert                               "                                          Tanrallt                           Labourer
No176  Sept 23rd 1836         Richard                              "                                          Roewen                          Publican
No 189  Aug 21st 1840          Ann                                   "                                          Ty Gwyn Roe                   Butcher
No 205 Feb 9th 1843              Margaret                           "                                               ditto                          Publican
No 219  Dec 12th 1845         Grace                                "                                                ditto                              ditto
No 236  March 18th 184?      Ann Jane                             "                                              ditto                              ditto
No 252  3rd Oct 1849            John                                   "                                        Mount Pleasant                  Labourer
                                                                                                                        in Parish of Caerhun
No 274   5th Oct  1851          William Hughy ?                    "                                        Tai Newydd  Roewen            ditto
No 275   5th Oct   1851         Thomas                                "                                                ditto                           ditto
No  285  26th Jan  1853         Robert                                 "                                       Ty Gwyn  Rowen                   ditto
No  306   3rd Dec 1855          Catherine                             "                                             ditto                           Publican       
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 22, 2019, 12:13:51 am
Thanks again Helig and Rhuddlan for finding out so much, and Hugo you have been busy in the archives. The problem at the moment is finding time to study it all. At present I am trying to put in a new soakaway on the NE corner of the house. The weather is not playing ball it has been a cycle of southerly gales and rain day after day for weeks and progress is slow. We could do with the wind going north then although it will be colder it should go dry.

Hugo, you attached a photon reply 29. Can you let us know its location.

Helig came up with a John Williams, born in Aberffraw in the 1861 census. I can recall my fathers cousin Lillian Wynne mentioning Aberffraw on one occasion when we visited herbut I can not remember in what connection.

I note the family moved to 9 Council Street in the early 1900s, and I can remember visiting as a young boy in the early 1950s. The house was always refered to as "Bryn View" and never as No 9. If I remember correctly the house name was on the glass screen above the front door.
In 1937 my nain ( Grace Ellen Jones ) with my mother moved from Bootle into No 21 Council Street. I have a photo of my mother at the front of this house with the house name " Eirianfa " on the glass screen above the front door.
Council Street is now renamed Norman Road and I have been trying to trace this house on Google Street View. The search is not helped by the unconventional way the numbering runs upward from Oxford Road. For some reason Odd numbers start on the Right with No1 and 3, then 5 and 7 are missing. A terrace of houses then starts at No 9 and runs to No 19, after which are more modern houses. The photo of my mother outside No21 shows it to be a substantial terraced house the same as 9 to 19. It would be interesting to see a map for the 1930s and if possible an explanation why No 21 disappeared.

Attached is a photo of Robert and Sarah Ellens grave in Llanrhos Church Yard .On the right and side are the names John and Robert  died in the Great War and are buried in Belgium. On the left side is daughter Edie.

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Cambrian on February 22, 2019, 09:09:39 am
Mull

Originally, Council Street was numbered consecutively from the Cwm Road end, number 1 being at the opposite end of the side to the property you are looking for.

In the 1970s, the occupiers of the large houses at the Oxford Road end wanted to be distinguished from the local authority housing (now the modern dwellings you refer to) and the name Norman Terrace was used for these and their numbers probably fell into disuse.

In the 1980s, the old Council houses were effectively demolished and became terraces of flats.  Those facing Council Street were numbered as in that road but, importantly, the name of the street was also changed to Norman Road.  The numbering of Norman Terrace then seems to have come back into use with Bryn View becoming 25.This is the first of the large dwellings on the right as you approach from Oxford Road. The first floor flats are approached from what was Back Council Street - this name was changed to Norman Way and those flats numbered accordingly.  "Eirianfa" is now "Northfield" and is 21 Norman Road. When the redevelopment took place, the new flats omitted number 13 which will explain the variation up to 19.  "Bryn View" is now 25 Norman Road. The numbers 1,3,5,7,9, and 11 seem to relate to the numbering within Norman Terrace as opposed to Council Street/Norman Road itself.

Hope this helps explain a confusing history!
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2019, 10:24:22 am
Mull,   I was out last night so I couldn't put an add on to my last post but I had a think about what I found at the Archives.   The Baptism of Robert on the 26th January 1853 cannot be your Robert as he was buried with his father in the new Llangelynin graveyard.    The other Robert was buried in the old Llangelynin graveyard and both children died very young
The photo is of the Ty Gwyn Hotel in Rowen where William Williams and his family once lived,   They may or may not be related to your Robert Williams family but they don't appear to be your direct line.
By the way the photo of the grave wasn't attached
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 22, 2019, 12:31:24 pm
Sorry can't get photo any clearer
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2019, 06:16:49 pm
Thanks Mull that has come out quite clear now.    The dates on the grave give an indication of an age gap of over 20 years between Robert and Sarah but from previous posting on the 18th Feb 2019 I thought that they were both born C1855.     Is the headstone incorrect then?
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2019, 07:50:30 am
Mull,  I've just had a look at your very first posting on this and in it you mentioned the 1861 Census and the names Robert, Edward and Lydia.       Have you seen the Census because I can't find those names all together on an 1861 Census?     Now Lydia who married Edward in 1863 was born in Shropshire so if you don't have the 1861 Census that could just be a red Herring

I have found an 1861 Census record with a John Jones, his wife Jane and the son Robert who was born C1855  who were living in Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon  ( where William Williams was living in 1849 )
The 1871 Census shows them living in Gate House Conwy
John's birthplace is shown as Caerhun and Gyffin

Now there has been a mention of a John Williams Aberffraw and you can remember someone mentioning Aberffraw but could it be that you heard this when you were talking about your Taid John Jones who was born in Llandegfan in Anglesey?   

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 23, 2019, 11:17:40 am
I think you are right, Hugo, it is unlikely that Robert, Edward and Lydia to be together in the 1861 census. Having said that, I haven't found Edward in that census as yet.

I have found that Edward moved to Salford, Lancashire, at some point during the 1880s. He is in Conwy in the 1881 census but he must have died pre 1891 as in that census Lydia is shown as a widow and living in 19 Harriett St, Broughton, Salford. She has six children with her there.

It is difficult to be certain of the exact year of death for Edward but the best match I can find in FreeBMD is a death registered in Manchester RD in the March quarter of 1890 for Edward Williams, age 51. Lydia is still alive and in the 1911 census she is living in 24 Conwy Street, Broughton, Manchester.

Could it have been the case that Robert and Edward moved to that area about the same time? Robert and family were living in Broughton, Salford, in the 1891 census too (see post on page 1).

I did wonder if Robert and family might be somewhere in England in the 1861. Like you, I wondered about the household of John Williams and Jane in Caerhun, see my post on 20/02/2019.

The baptisms for children of John Williams are not to be found in either the old, or new, churches at Llangelynin. There was a non conformist chapel there though, so could they have been baptised in that? Bear in mind that Robert and Sarah married in a non conformist chapel in Conwy in 1880.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 23, 2019, 03:52:18 pm
Sadly I have to agree with Hugo and Helig about the 1861 census and the three siblings.
 Also, apologies if any of the below has been found and posted before.

I thought I would try the 1881 census and found Robert and his Sarah Ellen living at Seaview Terrace. I also found " an" Edward and Lydia possibly the witnesses to their wedding living in Pool street. That Lydia was born in Oswestry in 1842 and if it's the correct one she is older than Robert who was born  in 1855. I'm pretty certain it's the right Robert but not quite so with the Lydia(particularly as she would have retained her maiden name on marriage). I have no time today to do any more research but I thought I'd  just post them anyway and let others comment further....  ( keep scrolling down!)
Robert Williams
England and Wales Census, 1881





Name:   Robert Williams
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1881
Event Place:   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District:   Conway
Residence Note:   Sea View Ter
Gender:   Male
Age:   26
Marital Status:   Married
Occupation:   Labourer (Gen)
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1855
Birthplace:   Llangelynin, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Page Number:   28
Registration Number:   RG11
Piece/Folio:   5581/28
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Robert Williams   Head   Male   26   Llangelynin, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Sarah E Williams   Wife   Female   25   Llangerniew, Denbighshire, Wales

Lydia Williams
England and Wales Census, 1881





Name:   Lydia Williams
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1881
Event Place:   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District:   Conway
Residence Note:   Pool Lane
Gender:   Female
Age:   40
Marital Status:   Married
Relationship to Head of Household:   Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):   1841
Birthplace:   Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Page Number:   46
Registration Number:   RG11
Piece/Folio:   5581/37
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Edward Williams   Head   Male   42   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Lydia Williams   Wife   Female   40   Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Mary Williams   Daughter   Female   13   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Ann Williams   Daughter   Female   11   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Edward Smith Williams   Son   Male   9   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
John Robert Williams   Son   Male   7   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
William James Williams   Son   Male   4   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2019, 05:08:00 pm
Helig and Rhuddlan,  I think that we have got the right John Williams in the 1861 Census and I have also got him in the 1871 Census too.
In the 1871 Census Robert has an elder brother called William who is living with them
This is not the conclusive proof that we need to confirm that it is the right person so another visit to Conwy Archives is required and I'll do that asap


Rhuddlan  whats all this "I have no time today to do any more research but I thought I'd  just post them anyway and let others comment further."..   You should have been on the Carneddau today with Tellytubby and I.   You'd have loved it (not )   It was not exactly the weather forecast we were expecting and it was blowing a gale up there
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2019, 11:50:47 am
For some reason the Census details from FREE CEN haven't come out in the style on my e-mail but after numerous attempts to correct them I have now given up and have left them as they appear below:-


1861 Caernarfonshire (CAE) Liechwedd-Isaf Caerhun Caerhun 4360 6 60 15 76  Tai Newydd, Is Yr Afon
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
WILLIAMS John Head M M 52 Agricultural Labourer CAE Caerhun   
WILLIAMS Jane Wife M F 50  CAE Gyffin   
WILLIAMS Robert Son - M 6  CAE Caerhun

Census Year County Place Civil Parish Ecclesiastical Parish Piece Enumeration District Folio Page Schedule House Number House or Street Name
1871 Caernarfonshire (CAE) Conway Gyffin Gyffin 5736 3 59 11 56  Gate House
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
WILLIAMS John Head M M 62 Labourer CAE Gyffin   
WILLIAMS Jane Wife M F 60 Wife CAE Llangelynen   
WILLIAMS William Son S M 21 Labourer CAE Llangelynnin   
WILLIAMS Robert Son - M 16 Labourer CAE Llangelynnin

I could not find John Williams in FREE CEN for 1851 or 1841 but I did find him in the Census records for Find My Past and it showed that he was living in Caerhun Parish and was born in 1808.      Because I don't subscribe to anything that is all the info I could obtain but I can get those records from the Archives plus any more Baptism records if there are any for John Williams' family
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 24, 2019, 01:17:29 pm
Now the" post rugby euphoria" has lapsed....I've found this for 1851... I think this is the one Hugo was referring to.
John Williams
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name   John Williams
Event Type   Census
Event Date   1851
Event Place   Caerhun, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District   Conway
Gender   Male
Age   43
Marital Status   Married
Occupation   Ag Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household   Head
Birth Year (Estimated)   1808
Birthplace   Caerhun, Carnarvonshire
Page Number   13
Registration Number   HO107
Piece/Folio   2519 / 357
Affiliate Record Type   Household
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
John Williams   Head   M   43   Caerhun, Carnarvonshire
Jane Williams   Wife   F   40   Cyffin, Carnarvonshire
Mary Williams   Daughter   F   10   Llangelynin, Carnarvonshire
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2019, 02:31:29 pm
Now that the Rugby has finished and possibly with it numerous bottles of red wine, that's a good find Rhuddlan.      It establishes three children for this John Williams, Mary b C1831 ,  William b C 1850 and Robert b C 1855.

Is it possible to work your magic again and do the Census for 1841?       The Baptism, Marriage and Burial Registers for Llsangelynin go back to 1733 and I noticed that there were a number of Williams' in it throughout the Register. and I'll be going back to the Archives asap to see if we can get more info about this family and connect Edward to it
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 24, 2019, 02:39:49 pm
That John Williams looks promising and we have connections to Llangelynin with his children. The only thing that worries me is that neither Robert, nor Edward Williams, has a daughter by the name of Jane which I would have expected.

There are more children in the 1851 census as it continues over the page. These were;

Jane Williams, daughter, age 8, born Llangelynin.
John Williams, son, age 6, born Llanbedr.
Ann Williams, daughter, age 3, born Caerhun.
William Williams, son, age 1, born Caerhun.

They seem to have moved around a bit.

I presume the children were baptised in the non conformist chapel.

I have found Lydia Thomas in the 1861 census. She is in Selattyn, Shropshire and a Kitchen Maid, servant, in the household of George Crump, landed proprietor. In the 1851 census, she is living with her parents, Robert and Margaret Thomas. They are in Selattyn. She has siblings by the names of Margaret (24) and William (11). Her parents were born Llansilin, Denbighshire. I couldn't decide on their birthplace from the census and this is as transcribed. Out of curiosity I tried to find her death which was in the September quarter of 1938, Manchester North District. She was aged 97.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2019, 03:56:53 pm
Thanks Helig, that looks very promising indeed so that has given us three more children  Jane b C1843   John B c1845 and Ann b C 1848.
So we know the names of six children already.
That Llangelynin Register may unearth a few more things hopefully
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 25, 2019, 10:04:39 am
There is a baptism in St Mary, Caerhun, for John Williams. This was on 19 January 1806, John Williams son of Hugh and Sarah Williams. I found this on Freereg. There are no other details to those above.

Also from Freereg, a marriage in St Celynin, Llangelynin, 24 August 1839, John Williams to Jane Roberts. This could be the John Williams we are interested in.

There is a baptism in St Celynin, Llangelynin, on 24 February 1811 for Jane Roberts, daughter of John and Mary Roberts.

This could be the right one as in the 1841 census for Llangelynin, Edward Williams b1839, is living with John and Mary Roberts.

The only doubt is that in the census returns, Jane shows she was born in Gyffin. There is a baptism in Gyffin for Jane Roberts on 3 February 1812. She was the daughter of Hugh and Elizabeth Roberts.

I cannot find baptisms for Mary Williams, bc1841, or Jane Williams, bc 1843.

All the above are from Freereg.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2019, 12:04:43 pm
Helig, you have probably got the right family with all your searches but the only one I have any doubt about could be this one  "There is a baptism in St Mary, Caerhun, for John Williams. This was on 19 January 1806, John Williams son of Hugh and Sarah Williams"

I think that the John Williams that you previously found was born C 1809 and I have found two Baptism records in Llanbedr Y Cennin in 1810 for a John William:-
2nd June 1910     son of Robert & Ellin Williams
24th March 1810  son of David and Jane Williams
but there is no proof to link any to the John Williams we are looking for

The trouble with the Census records is that you can only take them as a guide, for instance Caerhun is a  village but there is also a Parish of that name that includes the townships of Caerhun,  Llanbedr Y Cennin, Rowen, Tal Y Bont and Tyn Y Groes.
Gyffin also had a Parish with a few townships, none of which I have ever heard of before and then there is Llanbedr Y Cennin.
All of these are very close to each other so it makes tracing them difficult

I'm lucky living where I do because I can see the original records going back to 1733 so all I have to do is copy the entry and then know that they are correct. I'll take your findings with me when I next go to the Archives and work from there.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2019, 06:29:16 pm
Helig,  as I said before the Census records are a guide and sometimes they showed the Birth place as the village or sometimes as the Parish

Jane appears in the 1861 Census as being born in Gyffin  whereas
she appears   in the 1871 Census as being born in Llangelynin so that part is a mystery but one of the crucial things that you have found could be the marriage of John and Jane on the 24th August 1839

The Marriage Register which is in the Conwy Archives may hold the answer to what you have found so if I have a look at it and the record shows where Jane lived with her parents then that may confirm the link to Edward in the 1841 Census.
That same record may also show the name of John's father and where he lived.    In those old days the transport system was extremely limited and families never moved far away so we may be lucky and have all the records here in the Archives
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 25, 2019, 10:01:45 pm
Hi everyone thanks for all the work you are [putting into this. I am having a job keeping up with it all as it has been a busy weekend. Did enjoy the Rugby match though.
 Got a busy day tomorrow then a trip to Fort William on Wednesday so I hope by the end of the week will be able to sit down and study it all.


Cambrian, thanks for the explanation ,ref, house names and numbers in Council Street. Great fun being a Postman.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on February 25, 2019, 10:20:50 pm
Photo taken 1937 ,21 Council Street.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 26, 2019, 10:31:08 am
I have found John Williams and family in the 1841 census. HO107/1393/9 Llangelynin, District 6 page 9.
They are living in Groes Ynyd in Llangelynin.

John Williams, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Jane Williams, age 30, born in same county.
Mary Williams, age 4 months, born in same county.

They are living quite close to John and Mary Roberts and their family, plus Edward Williams.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2019, 12:38:27 pm
Thanks Helig, you've been busy again and that's a good find.

We are lucky in so much that there are various things we can look at to search for someone  .  Last night I was watching a Long Lost Family Special and it was about Foundlings, children born without trace and abandoned in various places.
I can't imagine how those children felt and in the past it would have been virtually impossible for them to trace their birth mother

Nowadays though thanks to DNA and modern technology there is a chance for them to do it.    They gave three examples of children who had been abandoned by their mother at birth and one man who was found abandoned in a Hospital  car park found that not only had they traced his birth mother and she was still alive but they also were able to trace his father.    I hope that they do a follow up on that as it will be interesting to hear the story on it and I hope that it will be a happy ending for everyone.

I did a DNA through my heritage which showed my ancestry and since then I have found out that I have relations all over the world and you are able to contact them through the internet
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: rhuddlan on February 26, 2019, 02:49:16 pm
Well done Helig in finding the 1841 census entries. Good to hear Mull enjoyed the rugby...most of my contemporaries prefer football but I'm afraid my passion is rugby and when you have roots deep in the soil of wales if you haven't a tear in your eye when the national anthem is sung at the Millenium Stadium then there's something missing.
I used to watch my dad with tears in his eyes when they played at Cardiff Arms Park. That's what makes genealogy so enjoyable. My daughter is a geneticist and my DNA is predominantly Celtic which pleases me greatly!
Finally well done Hugo for being a great friend and I wish I were as erudite as he is viz a viz his kind comments about our mutual friend Maria under  the heading " walking".....the B Y D walk.
Happy hunting folks!
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2019, 04:50:34 pm
Well Rhuddlan,  you'd have had tears in yours eyes too if you had been at the top of the Carneddau on Saturday, it was one of the windiest days that I've experienced up there.  Still a great game and a great result too
That was the first time that I have walked on a Roman Road since Maria passed away, she may be gone but she certainly hasn't been forgotten

Helig, I've been to the Archives this afternoon and had a look at some of the records that you have been able to find.  Firstly it is the correct marriage but there is a bit of a sting in the tail and these are the details from the Marriage Register    CEP 19/1/8   Llangelynnin Register of Marriage 1839 to 1970
The Wedding on the 24th August 1839 at the Parish Church of Llangelynnin and is No 5 in the Register

Name                age              status          occupation     Residence at time of Marriage     Father's name               Father's occupation
John Williams     full age       bachelor         labourer              Lletty Caerhyn                      William Thomas                 labourer
Jane Roberts        ditto         spinster                                  Tu Hwnt yr ffrwd                     John  Roberts                    farmer
                                                                                        ( address unclear)     

In the presence of  Hugh Evans
                            Mary    ?
                            John Roberts              Just as an add on all signatures were  put as the mark of X  meaning that they could not read or write

Now this is exactly how the entry appeared in the Register and you will note that John' Williams' father is William Thomas.   This does not appear to be a mistake because in the old Welsh tradition the sons were named after the father and if the tradition was maintained then John should have become John ap William.   So I needed to check this out with the Baptism records but the Llangelynnin Baptism record did not have an entry for him
I did however find an entry for John in the Caerhun Register and this is what I found:-
April 16th 1808
John son of William Thomas  Parkill  ( even the Archivist couldn't read the address )   by Jane his wife

I could find no entry for Jane Roberts in the Llangelynnin Baptism Register for 1811

There was no trace of a Baptism record on the 19th January 1806 for a John Williams

I made no further searches due to lack of time



Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 27, 2019, 09:46:25 am
It just goes to show how much those of us on this Forum have in common as I watched the rugby and also the programme, Long Lost Family Special. Both made for excellent television and I enjoyed watching them very much. I am thinking of having my DNA tested too.

It appears that John Williams was illegitimate but knew the identity of his father was nevertheless. That could be the reason why John wasn't named after his father. How can he be named John Williams if his father was shown as William Thomas Parkhill in the register? I searched Freereg and the John baptised on 16 April 1808, is named John Thomas after his father according to their transcription. It fits as his wife is shown as Jane.

I am trying to send a link to the entry on Freereg which shows the baptism of Jane Roberts.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bd6ee93790ec8b0d9655?locale=en&search_id=5c7658ae791e3bc41c54ec40&ucf=false (https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bd6ee93790ec8b0d9655?locale=en&search_id=5c7658ae791e3bc41c54ec40&ucf=false)

also, a link for the baptism of John Williams in 1806.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bbf7e93790ec8b0adb9d?locale=en&search_id=5c765a2c791e3bc41c54f3ec&ucf=false (https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bbf7e93790ec8b0adb9d?locale=en&search_id=5c765a2c791e3bc41c54f3ec&ucf=false)

I am not sure if these will come out.

I have seen some entries for the non conformist chapel in Henryd Congregational Chapel that is mentioned on the Genuki page for Llangelynin. I am not sure what records exist for this place. Is it possible to enquire next time you are in the archives please, Hugo? The children of John and Jane Williams appear to have been baptised there.

Helig.



Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 27, 2019, 10:00:14 am
There is an entry in the 1841 census for Caerhun for William Thomas, age 70, Ag Lab, born in same county. Jane Thomas, age 65, born in same county. Both living in Llety.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2019, 12:27:56 pm
Thanks Helig for all the info you have posted and the links that you have attached.    It's best if I reply to each particular point just to clarify what I found and what records I was looking at:-

Firstly  John Williams was not illegitimate.    It would have stated that in his Baptism record.   His father was William Thomas who was married to Jane and this is shown in his Baptism record of 16th April 1808.  Their abode was Parkhill but I expect that our interpretation of the address is incorrect
  As I mentioned before, the Welsh people did not have surnames hundreds of years ago.  My history is not that good but I think that the Act of Union with England and Henry VIII started to change the practise and in those days someone like John may have been called John ap William ap Robert etc etc so that is what the Archivist and myself have concluded.

However, I'd like to prove that for certain and I believe that William Williams may be John's brother and if that is so then William Williams' father should also be William Thomas.   iF it does then that is the definitive date when the family adopted the surname Williams.          I helped another forum member with a similar thing and by coincidence they lived in Gorswen in Rowen and would have been neighbours of the Williams family at the time.
That's the reason why so many Welsh families have surnames that sound like Christian names.    You'll also see names like Owen Owen, Robert Roberts, William Williams and so on

The Baptism of Jane Roberts on the 19th of January 1806 in Llangelynnin:-
I looked at the Llangelynnin Baptism Register for the years 1785 to 1811 but could find no entry for Jane.     However there may be an overlap and her Baptism is in the next Register so I need to check that one out

I looked at the Caerhun Baptism Register and while that was not in very good condition I could not see an entry on the 19th Jan 1806 for a John Williams, there was an entry on the 5th Jan 1806 for a John Williams but his parents were Hugh and Ellin Williams but I've discounted that one and feel sure that I have the correct one in 1808

I'll enquire about the Henryd connection when I next go to the Archives

You are obviously into Ancestry in a big way Helig and if I was you then I would go for that DNA test and you'll be surprised how much you can find out about yourself.     When I did mine with My Heritage in Texas my make up was over 75 per cent Welsh, Irish and Scottish, 14 per cent Scandinavian and over 7 per cent Italian with Turkish and Iranian making just under 2 per cent.
In addition I get regular notifications from them about matches to my DNA  from people all over the world.    You can make contact with them through the site if you so wish,

A few years ago if I wanted to look at old maps I would go in to British History Online put the location down and then click on the link and I could see maps of the 1800's and property on them.  I've tried this recently with all the names we have found but now the maps don't automatically appear.  I'm afraid that my IT skills are zero but you may be able to navigate around the new system

.   
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 27, 2019, 03:00:28 pm
Thank you for your explanations, Hugo. I have read about the Welsh system of patronymics but have never seen this operate in practise. I have searched Ancestry for some baptisms in c1785, in Conwy and this was operating for children born there then.

I will see what I can find on William Williams to confirm his father's identity.

Yes, the DNA test is something I have pondered but they have made so much progress with refining the results that I am now very tempted to go ahead with this. I know I have a massive amount of Welsh, some Scottish, Viking and who knows what else. It would be interesting to see what unknown relations come out of the woodwork as I know I have a number of relations due to my maternal grandfather being a bit too fond of the ladies. His offspring are known to exist but no one knows exactly who they are. One was born before he married my grandmother and was known to be about in the Conwy Valley.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2019, 03:29:38 pm
Most of these old Registers that I have read are in remarkable condition considering their age, the Baptism one for Caerhun was hard to follow because the writing has faded and they used abbreviations so I had to check with the Archivist who knew what they were, for example  Jo.  was John  and Hu.  was Hugh but the other registers had the full name

With John and William, I think that they are related because some of the addresses are the same but we just need the final bit of the jigsaw before we can say that they are

A few years ago a University did an experiment with the Conwy Valley residents and wanted volunteers whose families had lived there for a long time.   They were going to test the DNA of the volunteers and see what the findings were.  My father's father was from Penmachno but the experiment was only for people still living there so I didn't qualify and I never found out what the findings were.

Bt the way have you tried British History online to see those old maps?  I hope that you have more luck with them than I did
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2019, 10:16:24 am
I did quite a bit of searching on FreeREG yesterday evening for the Baptism of William Williams but could find nothing that links him to John Williams so I'll have a look in the Archives next week.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on February 28, 2019, 12:10:44 pm
I have found an interesting entry in the 1841 census for Bryn Gwenith, Caerhun. The household is as follows;

William Thomas, male, Head, age 55 (born c1786), born in same county.
Ellin Thomas, female, age 40 (born c1801), born in same county.
Jane Thomas, female, age 10 (born c1831) born in same county.
William Owen, male age 15 (orn c1826) born in same county.

Do you think this could be the family of John Williams?

I know that the wife of William Thomas was shown as Jane in 1808, could he have remarried?

This was on Find my Past.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2019, 12:20:18 pm
Helig,   I've had another look under FreeREG and found all the Baptism records that you have found and listed but what I couldn't find is the Baptism record for John Williams on the 16th April 1808
However when I tried the name John Thomas the one I found appeared, so I'm back to square one.   i'll get the Marriage Register copied when I next go to the Archives

Helig, regarding your last post, it could well be the same person but I'll have to have more searches in the Archives before I can say whether it is the same person.   It's getting a bit complicated with the surnames
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2019, 12:57:28 pm
Helig, I've just had an e-mail from British History online and they have sorted out the problem regarding the maps.   If you want to see Llangelynin then you must put Henryd in and then click on the link
I've just seen Tu Hwnt i'r Ffrwd  which was Jane Roberts' home and if you put Caerhun in the the map will include Caerhun, Llanbedr Y Cennin and Rowen and Ty'n Y Groes
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2019, 03:43:56 pm
I have found John Williams and family in the 1841 census. HO107/1393/9 Llangelynin, District 6 page 9.
They are living in Groes Ynyd in Llangelynin.

John Williams, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Jane Williams, age 30, born in same county.
Mary Williams, age 4 months, born in same county.

They are living quite close to John and Mary Roberts and their family, plus Edward Williams.

Helig.

I found Groes Ynyd on the map of Henryd ( it includes Llangelynin ) and it's a pub, in actual fact it's the Groes Inn at Tyn Y Groes
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on March 01, 2019, 09:52:08 am
Mornin Hugo,

I have looked at the maps on British History Online and found the one for Llangelynin. I could see Groes Ynyd on it. I remember the Tyn y Groes Inn, so know whereabouts they lived.

I noticed that there was another non conformist chapel there. The one in Henrhyd is marked clearly. There is also a Methodist Chapel, marked Calvinistic, to the north of it. I don't recall seeing that on Genuki.

I found Tu Hwnt i'r Ffrwd as well. It is close to St Celynin's church.

I will do a search on Caerhun. This is a place I have always loved and used to visit frequently. I gather Caerhun Hall is now quite s wish hotel. I think it used to be a training centre, something to do with accountancy.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 01, 2019, 04:13:00 pm
I have found an interesting entry in the 1841 census for Bryn Gwenith, Caerhun. The household is as follows;

William Thomas, male, Head, age 55 (born c1786), born in same county.
Ellin Thomas, female, age 40 (born c1801), born in same county.
Jane Thomas, female, age 10 (born c1831) born in same county.
William Owen, male age 15 (orn c1826) born in same county.

Do you think this could be the family of John Williams?

I know that the wife of William Thomas was shown as Jane in 1808, could he have remarried?

This was on Find my Past.

Helig.

I found this entry on Free Reg but of course it is not proof of anything, this finding does not show William as a widower or where he lived.   Perhaps the Marriage Register will fill in the blanks?

Field
(only fields with a value are shown)   Value
County   Caernarfonshire
Place   Llangelynnin
Church name   St Celynin
Register type   Parish Register
Marriage date   20 Feb 1824
Groom forename   William
Groom surname   WILLIAMS
Bride forename   Ellin
Bride surname   PARRY
Bride parish   Llangelynin
Transcribed by   Glen Jenkins
File line number   32
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 01, 2019, 07:03:31 pm
This is the only death for a Jane Thomas that fits in with the dates to match the 1841 Census.   It's only speculation on my part with nothing to prove it one way or the other
Perhaps the Llangelynnin Burial Register may fill in the missing bits

Field
(only fields with a value are shown)   Value
County   Caernarfonshire
Place   Llanbedrycennin
Church name   St Peter
Register type   Parish Register
Register entry number   98
Burial date   03 Dec 1821
Burial person forename   Jane
Burial person surname   THOMAS
Person age   28
Burial person abode   Hafodgorwen, Caerhun
Transcribed by   Jeffrey Bounds
Credit   Jeff Bounds
File line number   98
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2019, 05:24:50 pm
:-
Firstly  John Williams was not illegitimate.    It would have stated that in his Baptism record.   His father was William Thomas who was married to Jane and this is shown in his Baptism record of 16th April 1808.  Their abode was Parkhill but I expect that our interpretation of the address is incorrect

I've had a look at the map again and the abode Parkhill is incorrect and should be Parciau which is in Rowen near the Congregational Chapel
When we looked at the original entry in the Register the first part of the word was legible ie  Park but that obviously was an error as there is no letter K in the Welsh alphabet.  The rest of the word was impossible to read but Parciau is the place


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 04, 2019, 12:22:26 pm
It's only an observation but I've looked again  at the Census records posted on here for 1851 posted by Rhuddlan on 24th Feb 2019 and Helig on the same date and they show 5 young children with John  & Jane Williams with various ages from 1 to 10
 
The 1961 Census shows the family living at Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon but it only has entries for the following;-
John Williams    age 52
Jane    ditto             50
Robert   ditto              6       ( born C1855 )

Has anyone any ideas on what happened to the missing 5 young children shown on the 1851 Census?

That address in 1861 Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon was also the address for William Williams in 1861.     Tai ( meaning houses in English)  would suggest a terrace of cottages so both families would be close neighbours

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 04, 2019, 04:15:16 pm
I think that I've found the answer by going on FreeCEN.      The children must have left home and are living and working elsewhere.

Take the case of William Williams then aged 1 in the 1851 Census but in the 1861 Census he is only aged 11 but is working for a farmer called Hugh Jones at Ty Hwnt i'r Gors is Yr Afon in the Parish of Caerhun
Life must have been tough there in those old days

WILLIAMS William    Servnt   Unmarried    Male    age 11  CAE      Parish Caerhun 
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2019, 09:12:36 am
I have seen some entries for the non conformist chapel in Henryd Congregational Chapel that is mentioned on the Genuki page for Llangelynin. I am not sure what records exist for this place. Is it possible to enquire next time you are in the archives please, Hugo? The children of John and Jane Williams appear to have been baptised there.

Helig.


I did ask when I went to the Archives yesterday and they had no specific Baptism records for the Henryd Congregational Chapel although I did find a burial Index for it and there were only 16 burials in it
 I was told that there were various assortments of records and the only one that seemed appropriate was this one
Chapel Baptisms
RG4/4468         1804 -- 1837
Which is the Baptism Register for children born Llanfaifechan, Gyffin,  Llangelynin and Caerhum
I didn't look at the records but if you want anything specific for me to look at then I'll do that on my next visit there.

Helig, on your post of the 28th Feb 2019 you mentioned William Thomas and asked the question could he have remarried as you found in the 1841 William Thomas was married to Ellin Thomas but in 1808 his wife was called Jane.
Beforehand I did find a burial record for Jane Thomas who was buried on 3rd December 1821 at Llanbedr Y Cennin and she had lived at Hafodgorwen  Caerhun.       Unfortunately when I looked at the Burial Index in the Archives I could not find the burial for her.  The index only records graves with headstones.

However I did look at the Llangelynnin Marriage Register and there was an entry there that fitted with  what you think may have happened the details are
No 33    on 20th February 1824 the wedding was between
William Thomas of the Parish of Llangelynin
and
Ellen Parry         of the same Parish
The witness was Robert Roberts
Unfortunately the entry did not say if William was a widower or not.    Other entries in the register did say whether the bride and groom were spinsters or bachelors so it may have been omitted out of respect for William but that's only a guess

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on March 06, 2019, 10:18:22 am
Hello Hugo,

Thank you for checking things in the archives.

I wonder if you could enquire about chapel records after 1837. The children of John Williams were born 1839 onwards and it would be interesting to see if their baptisms are in the non conformist chapel.

It hadn't occurred to me about the other children of John Williams in census returns after 1851. I know that Edward was working elsewhere in Llechan in the 1861 but I cannot trace him in the 1851.

It is difficult to say whether the marriage of William Thomas to Ellin Parry is the same William Thomas, father of John Williams. It looks to be a strong possibility it is him but in the absence of more information on the parish records, it is impossible to be certain.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on March 06, 2019, 10:36:02 am
I think I have found Edward Williams in the 1851 after a place search of the census in Llangelynin.

The household is as follows;

Mary Roberts, Head, widow, age 75, Farmer 14 acres, born Llangelynin.
Mary Roberts, Daughter, age 37, unmarried, Farmer's daughter, born Gyffin.
Edward Roberts, son, age 40, Unmarried, Farmer's Son, born Gyffin.
Edward Roberts, grandson, age 11, born Llangelynin.

On the census itself the children have "ditto" under their surnames. This is the same Mary Roberts, wife of John Roberts, as they are living in the same place as the 1841 census. This is called Pwllyrnoch (I think it is as the writing is hard to decipher.)

I wonder whether Edward was illegitimate. He was born in 1839, the same year as John Williams and Jane Roberts married.

Helig.

Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2019, 12:18:50 pm
I did check on anything after 1837 but could find nothing.      Strangely though when I looked at the Llangelynnin Baptism Register there were two entries that may have been for John and Jane's children and the details are:-
No 213     24th November 1844
John    son of John & Jane Williams
Gelli   Parish of Llanbedr
No 254       3rd March 1850
William son of John and Jane Williams
Pen Y Gadair    Parish of Caerhun

As the family moved from one place to another the Baptisms could have been carried out in a different Parish


In the 1851 Census it would appear that the children have all left home and even William who was only 11 was living and working elsewhere locally

In the Census of 1851 that you have found all the surnames are Roberts so we cannot be certain that the Edward Roberts Grandson born in Llangelynin is actually Edward Williams.    That's the frustrating part of Census records that they are not always accurate
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on March 07, 2019, 11:08:03 am
Morning Hugo,

That looks to be a good find. The dates fit in with the ages of the children in the 1851 census. John Williams was shown as age 6 and born Llanbedr, William Williams was age 1 and born Caerhun. See my post of 24 February 2019.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2019, 12:24:19 pm
Thanks Helig,   I've just noticed that part of my last posting viz  " In the 1851 Census it would appear that the children have all left home and even William who was only 11 was living and working elsewhere locally"
This should of course be the 1961 Census

I had a look at the Burial Index for the children and couldn't find a record of their death prior to 1861 so after checking William out and finding out that he was living and working elsewhere at the tender age of 11,   I can only assume that the others were also living and working elsewhere

In the records I have looked at already the surname Williams has cropped up in a number of places within the Parishes of Caerhun and Llangelynin so it is a possibility that they are all related in some way but then the problem of course is linking them together.

The weather has been bad here so I've spent a bit of time on FreeREG  but couldn't find any Baptism record for Edward Williams in the Caerhun & Llangelynin are but there was one in 1838 at St Benedicts in Gyffin.       The Parish of Gyffin I think bordered Llangelynin so there could be a connection there although the is no evidence to prove it
I've also had a look at my own family on FreeREG  and found my G G Grandfather so it's a good site to use and best of all it's completely free

Going back to the DNA that you had an interest in,  I often get e-mails from My Heritage giving links to me and this week alone I've been told about two possible relations in the USA.      I've not followed any up because I was only curious about my own DNA background
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2019, 05:17:17 pm
This is the marriage Register that I was looking at previously but I took a photo of it when I went to the Archives today
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2019, 08:14:09 am
I had a walk yesterday from the old Llangelynnin Church to Tal Y Fan on the Carneddau and had a look at the Church.   It's one of the remotest and oldest Churches in North Wales and is about 900 feet above sea level.    The Church was closed in 1840 due to depopulation in that area but there are still services in the Church on certain days
My friend Tellytubby and I had a good look around the place and found the grave of three of William Williams' children who sadly died at the tender ages of 3 weeks,  3 years and 4 years 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVCIomhqKk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkVCIomhqKk)


Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2019, 10:20:15 am
After going to the old Church we went to the new Church in Llangelynnin and passed the Chapel in Henryd on the way.
The new Church has closed and has been bought by an archaeologist who has also bought a few acres of land abutting the Church.
We had a very interesting chat with him before having a look around the graveyard. We found the grave of William Williams and his wife and they were the parents of those 3 young children who were buried in the old Church
The headstone was a flat slate stone and the inscription was still clear after all these years
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: mull on March 21, 2019, 12:16:13 pm
Looks like you had a good day.
A lot on at the moment and will have a detail look at all the info when I get the chance.

Thanks again. Mull
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Hugo on March 21, 2019, 12:26:29 pm
It was just like a Summer's day yesterday and nice to get out.       I hope that you were able to finish your soak away before the deluge came down a few days ago
Capel Curig had over 5 inches of rain in the one day so it is no wonder they had the floods down stream in the Conwy Valley
Title: Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
Post by: Helig on March 22, 2019, 10:22:59 am
Thank you for posting these photos Hugo. It is lovely to see the palces we have been researching for this family. The one old church up in the hills reminds me of St Tudno on the Great Orme. Henryd looks to be well maintained and in good condition.

Helig