Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 11, 2019, 06:21:29 pm

Title: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 11, 2019, 06:21:29 pm

I am a new member to this forum, having taken over my mother’s genealogy work and have hit some dead ends.

My grandfather (father’s side) is Richard Jones (Bangor 1877-1917), son of Edward Jones (Bangor 1841-1905). Edward was born in Dwygyfylchi.

Edward’s newspaper obituary (North Wales Chronicle) indicates that his father was Richard Jones of Pwll y Gwichiad Farm, Llandudno. It was a well known belief that our family were “Pwll’gwichiad’s”.

The Richard Jones (1821-75) I have found was a blacksmith in Isa Pen Ucha (Dwygyfylchi?) in the 1841 Wales Census.

Here is where I am struggling. From others’ trees I believe he married Elizabeth Coulborn (sp?) in 1817. I can see that he did marry an Elizabeth - but am unsure about this particular Elizabeth and can find little about her.

I am trying to make the link beyond Richard Jones to (if appropriate) earlier/other Pwll’gwichiads.

Others' online ancestry trees (poor/no sources) indicate that Richard’s father may have been Peter Jones of Pwllgwichiad (1767-1834) but I am struggling to prove this linkage.

Did the Jones family actually run/own the Pwll y Gwichiad Farm - or simply work there?

To complicate matters even further, an uncle (since passed) used to regularly talk about our “Yr Ogof” heritage. I have read much of the information about Isaac & Miriam Jones etc. on this forum but, again, cannot make a linkage.

I am also unable to tell whether the “Pwllgwichiad Jones’s” are linked to the “Yr Ogof Jones’s”.

Any thoughts? I note that “micox” once posted that he has a complete Jones ancestry tree? If so - not sure where I might find this?

Any info/help appreciated. Diolch.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 11, 2019, 09:40:56 pm

My family history research revealed evidence that one of my ancestors was John Jones who lived at Pwllygwichiad Farm in 1837.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2019, 10:17:54 pm

Quote from: KHCYMROCANADA on December 11, 2019, 06:21:29 pm

Others' online ancestry trees (poor/no sources) indicate that Richard’s father may have been Peter Jones of Pwllgwichiad (1767-1834) but I am struggling to prove this linkage.

Did the Jones family actually run/own the Pwll y Gwichiad Farm - or simply work there?

Pwllygwichiad was cited near where the Cenataph is today and Peter Jones rented the farm from Gloddaeth for £52 10s a year.  There is a bit about him in Chris Draper's book " Llandudno before the Hotels"       It is at pages 180 & 181 of that book but no date is mentioned

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 12, 2019, 04:35:51 am

Pwllygwichiad is the farm over on the left.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 12, 2019, 10:12:58 am

There is a baptism of a Richard Jones in St Tudno, Llandudno on 16 February 1822, son of Edward and Margaret Jones. This is on Freereg.

I should have thought that if Edward was born in 1841, his father would have been born earlier than 1822. There is another baptism in St Tudno on 11 May 1817, Richard Jones, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones.

There are other baptisms on Freereg in this period for Richard Jones in neighbouring parishes such as Conwy, Dwygyfylchi and Abergwyngregyn.

I searched on Freereg for a marriage in the period 1830-1841. The only marriage I can find for Richard Jones to an Elizabeth is in Abergwyngregyn on 13 May 1835, Richard Jones married Elizabeth Morris. The bride's parish was Aber.

There is a marriage in St Tudno on 15 September 1830, Richard Jones, bachelor, to Grace Jones, spinster. Witnesses were: William Williams, Elizabeth Jones and Robert Jones.

There are other marriages in this period in Conwy and Abergwyngregyn.

If that is the right marriage then Richard would have been born earlier than 1817. There are two baptisms in St Tudno, Llandudno as follows:

9 March 1806, Richard Jones, son of Richard and Ann Jones.
5 March 1808, Richard Jones, son of Richard and Mary Jones.

There is an article in The North Wales Chronicle and Advertiser for the Principality dated 21 December 1850. This features the coming of age of Thomas Edward Lloyd Mostyn Esq on 23 January 1851. It reads," At a meeting of the friends and well wishers of the ancient houses of Mostyn, Gloddaeth and Pengwern held at the National School Room in Llandudno on Saturday, 30th day of November 1850 to consider the best means of celebrating the above auspicious and interesting event". It was decided that subscriptions be collected in honour of the Mostyn family and a committee was set up in order to solicit and collect subscriptions. One of the men on the committee was Edward Owen of Pwllygwichiad, Llandudno. This suggests that it wasn't owned by the Jones family at that time.

There are 4 people on Genes Reunited who have Richard Jones born Bangor, 1877 in their trees.

Helig.


 

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 12, 2019, 12:53:04 pm

Thank you to all for your info/input.

Good point re the age difference between Edward & Richard. Seems like the Richard Jones I have may be incorrect. I need to do some more digging.

I was unaware of Freereg. Thank you Helig.

Bri Roberts - we may find a link? Do you use an online ancestry website and is your tree public?

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2019, 04:33:38 pm

Isaac Jones who married Miriam was born in Amlwch in 1811 and moved to Llandudno to work as a Copper Miner he was also a fisherman and became the first Coxwain for the Llandudno lifeboat crew.    They had 14 or 15 children ( depends which book you read )  but there must be many Jones relations in the town

I remember looking at a Census record for 1861 ( I think ) and the only entry on it was " Gogarth Cave "  was Isaacs  so I don't know the name of the other family members.    I've attached some photos from the NWWN of April 11th 2002 and the ruins of the cottage are on the junction of Pen Y Ffordd Goch and the Marine Drive.      When I walked past the place last Saturday you can still see the Ruabon tiles that were on the floor of the kitchen

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 12, 2019, 05:14:40 pm

Quote from: KHCYMROCANADA on December 12, 2019, 12:53:04 pm

Bri Roberts - we may find a link? Do you use an online ancestry website and is your tree public?

Sadly not. I did this particular research during the days when I had to visit libraries and archives throughout North Wales.

Have you checked the 1841 census yet for Pwllygwichiad?

I seem to remember Mrs Elizabeth Jones being a widower and Head of the Household.

Hugo, are you sure about Isaac Jones being the first coxswain of Llandudno Lifeboat.

I have it in my mind as being Hugh Jones.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2019, 05:34:02 pm

Bri,  the NWWN  wrote that he was the first Coxswain, so who am I to argue with them?      At the back on my mind though you could be right about a Hugh Jones, our forum friend Jom from NZ may have mentioned it as Hugh Jones from Adwy Rhydd near Bodafon was her ancestor

Bri,   I don't know the answer now that you've put the spanner in the works but I've had a look at Chris Draper's book and there is an interesting bit at pg 192 that  KHCYMROCANADA  may be interested in.      Very briefly the family lived at a Tai Unos called Storws Bach
the head of the household was Joseph but he drowned in 1848 when working on the Conwy Railway Bridge.  He left a wife Jane Jones and a large family including a son Peter and two other sons called Richard  and Hugh who both subsequently served as Coxwains of the Llandudno Lifeboat

As a point of interest I think that Storws Bach was the stone building behind the farm in the left hand side of the painting

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2019, 06:42:37 pm

Bri,   you were spot on with Hugh Jones       $good$

I've just copied this from the internet

Llandudno lifeboat. Llandudno's lifeboat service began in 1861, with a boathouse near the railway station. The first coxswain, Hugh Jones, was a Great Orme copper miner. To call him to the lifeboat, his daughter would run to the mine and summon him by banging a stone against pipework at the top of the shaft.
Llandudno lifeboat - History Points
historypoints.org › page=llandudno-lifeboat

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 12, 2019, 07:00:46 pm

No problem, Hugo, but typical of the NWWN.

Btw, I have checked the Tai Unnos and Ty Isa is behind Pwllygwichiad, which makes sense as it ties in with the road name by the Merrion Hotel.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2019, 10:49:03 pm

Quote from: Bri Roberts on December 12, 2019, 07:00:46 pm

No problem, Hugo, but typical of the NWWN.

Btw, I have checked the Tai Unnos and Ty Isa is behind Pwllygwichiad, which makes sense as it ties in with the road name by the Merrion Hotel.

I have checked again and the Hugh Jones is not the same person who had Adwy Rhydd as that Hugh Jones's father was called Moses Jones.    They were also from Gyffin but that is just a coincidence but of course they could be related.
Jom may know a bit more about any possible relationship between the two families

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 13, 2019, 01:41:26 pm

Thank you again to Hugo, Helig and Bri Roberts.

This all helps with my continued research.

For interest, I attach a copy of Edward Jones’ obituary which makes the link to Pwllygwichiad. I am looking for his brother Joseph Jones.

Also - in common with the story of Isaac Jones (Yr Ogof) coming from Amlwch as a copper miner, and doubtless many others, I found the attached in the Conway archive. Richard Hughes - who married into the Pwllygwichiad Jones family - also came from Amlwch to the copper mine. Presumably all had a background at Parys Mountain? Not yet sure if the respective times work.

Another little snippet - not necessarily relevant to my research but interesting - was that Isaac Jones was reported as attempting to fly off the Great Orme with home made wings. He crashed and was badly injured, but was nursed back to health by Miriam. Ha!

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2019, 02:38:37 pm

KHCYMROCANADA, that was an interesting piece of family history and good to read.       I have mentioned before about a book written by Christopher Draper called " Llandudno before the hotels".      It is about the life and times in Llandudno before 1850 and is a fantastic book to read for anyone interested in the history of Llandudno and I would recommend it to anyone.

Attached is a copy of the farm rentals paid to Sir Thomas Mostyn the landowner and it is proof that Peter Jones did rent the farm (see No 17) some other names may also be of interest to you.

Next is a Census record of 1851 and Joseph Jones died in 1848 so the head of the family was Jane and then her many children.  I don't know if they are your ancestors or not but the names may make some sense to you

The 3rd photo is of a map showing where Storws Bach was located  ( very near to Pwllygwichiad )

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 13, 2019, 03:01:48 pm

Thank you Hugo. Good info. I'll keep "mining". While the names do not ring any bells, I suspect there may be a connection here.

(FYI - I am in Canada - so need to check whether I can get the book you referenced.)

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 13, 2019, 04:08:05 pm

I remember many years ago viewing what I believe to be large tithe maps where the land leased by Pwllygwichiad went all the way down Mostyn Street and there was another parcel of land over by the Risboro’ Hotel as we know it today.

KHCYMROCANADA, the book recommended by Hugo has an ISBN 1-84524-095-2 and then below 978-1-84524-095-0.

Btw, you may come across the name of Hugh Hughes during your research. He was a well-respected artist residing for a while at Pwllygwichiad prior to the Jones family moving in.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 13, 2019, 04:39:17 pm

Thanks to Bri Roberts.

I had also seen the Hugh Hughes info. Thank you. This confused me to start with since the Jones side of the family (much later) ended up marrying a Hughes with roots that also went back to Amlwch and I wondered whether there was a connection here. I don’t believe so.

I am experiencing all the usual problems when dealing with these common Welsh surnames - although work on my mother’s side of the family - with what you’d think would be less common surnames - is resulting in very similar dead ends!

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2019, 05:32:56 pm

That's interesting KHCYMROCANADA  about the Hughes name as my name is Hughes too, also my mother's maiden name was Hughes and her mother was from Amlwch

One relation on my mother's side married Harry Whittle and Harry & Peggy went off to Canada to live but that's too much of a coincidence to be your relative

Names and addresses can be spelt differently but if you need anything specific looking at just post it on here and someone may have the answer for you

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 14, 2019, 11:53:59 am

Thanks Hugo.

Yes - that would be way too much of a coincidence. Your ancestors’ names have not come up in my research.

I am Bangor born/bred and emigrated to Canada in the late eighties.

To complicate matters further for me, I also married a Hughes. My wife’s side of the family (Hughes/Llanllechid and Evans/Brynsiencyn) are presenting similar challenges with their common surnames!

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 14, 2019, 11:57:28 am

1851 census entry for Pwllygwichiad.

Edward Owen, Head, married, age 38, Farmer, born Llandudno.
Mary Owen, wife, age 30, born Llanasa, Flintshire.
Thomas Owen, son, age 1, born Llandudno.
Owen Roberts, servant, age 28, Farmer's servant, born Llanyffraid, Denbighshire.
Thomas Owen, servant, age 17, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born ??? (entries crossed out).
John Jones, servant, age 27, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Flintshire, Llanasa.
Thomas Foulkes, servant, age 26, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Llanasa, Flintshire.
Owen Jones, servant, age 36, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Llanelian, Denbighshire.
Margaret Williams, servant, age 17, unmarried, Farmer's servant, born Holywell, Flintshire.
Joseph Hughes, visitor, unmarried, age 29, born Flintshire, ??? Whitford.

It isn't as easy to identify it in the 1841 census. The spelling isn't the same. I think this is it:

Pwyllygwyrd.

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county.

The 1871 census for Isaac and Miriam Jones:

Gogarth Head, Rogo

Isaac Jones, Head, married, age 62, Fishmonger, born Liverpool, Lancashire.
Miriam Jones, wife, age 38, born Llangelynin, Caernarvon.
Ellen Jones, daughter, age 11, scholar, born Liverpool.
Katurah Jones, daughter, age 9, scholar, born Llandudno.
John Jones, son, age 6, born Llandudno.
Isaac Jones, son, age 5, born Llandudno.
Rhebecah Jones, daughter, age 1, born Llandudno.

Miriam Owens married Isaac Jones in 1861. In view of his age, was this his second marriage?

In 1881, Isaac, Miriam and Rebecca are living at Gogarth, Isaac is aged 71, no occupation, Miriam is aged 50, Charwoman, and Rebecca aged 11.

I can look for other years on request.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 14, 2019, 12:45:43 pm

Isaac and Miriam Jones were still living in Gogarth Cave  ( where St Petrocks is ) in the 1871 Census and they moved to the Gogarth Tea Rooms in about 1878 when the Marine Drive was built

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 14, 2019, 12:57:35 pm

There are four Family Trees on Ancestry for Isaac Jones. This is definitely the same person as we are interested in. These trees show the same details, there is no guarantee they are correct. They show Isaac was born 29 March 1813, Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf, Anglesey. He was the son of Hugh Jones and Elizabeth Perry. Isaac was baptised on 11 May 1813in the Calvinistic Methodist chapel at Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf. Hugh Jones was a Farmer of Panty Soar according to the baptism details. The parish register shows the maiden name of Elizabeth to be Jones.

They show the marriage to Miriam Owen in Llandudno on 13 November 1861.

Their children are shown as follows:

Ellen born 1860 Liverpool.
Margaret, born 1862, Llandudno. Died 1862.
Katurah, born 1862, Llandudno. She appears to be a twin of Margaret, both born 22 April 1862.
John I Jones, born 1863, Llandudno.
Isaac, born1865, Llandudno.
Rhebecah, born 1869 Llandudno.

The trees also show a John Jones born 1865, Llandudno.
Jane Jones born 1864, Llanwrst.
Hugh Jones, born 1866 Llanwrst
Martha Jones born 1867 Llandudno.
Mary Jones born 1875, Llanwrst

I am wary of some of the ones in the second list as they cannot be verified with census entries and it seems odd that children were born in Llanwrst when they lived in Llandudno. The John Jones born 1865 fits in with the 1871 census however. All the Family Trees on Ancestry have to be treated with caution as so many of them are incorrect.

Some of the children are shown as having died in Liverpool. I cannot find anything for Isaac Jones born c1809 in Liverpool as shown on the 1871 and 1881 census returns.

Helig.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 14, 2019, 02:07:26 pm

Quote from: Helig on December 14, 2019, 11:57:28 am

It isn't as easy to identify it in the 1841 census. The spelling isn't the same. I think this is it:

Pwyllygwyrd.

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county

I suspect this is the same John Jones who is named on the baptismal register for Eglwysrhos but left blank on the birth certificate of my Gt Gt Grandmother born in July 1837.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 16, 2019, 01:43:05 pm

Re Hugo's comments about the residence of Isaac and Miriam in the 1871, I think that Rogo is a corruption of Yr Ogof. Could be the enumerator was English with a poor understanding of Welsh.

I have searched Freereg for baptisms of the children of Isaac and Miriam. These are the results:

St Tudno, Llandudno:
baptised 21 April 1862, Keturah, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones. Margaret baptised on the same date.
20 December 1863, John Jones, son of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
27 August 1865, Isaac Jones, son of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
23 September 1867, Martha, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
23 September 1867, Mary, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.
5 March 1870, Rebecca, daughter of Isaac and Miriam Jones.


It would be interesting to know whether they had two sets of twins, or if it was a case of having two children baptised at the same time.

Just to complicate matters there are children being baptised recorded as of Isaac and Mary Jones. These were as follows:

St Tudno,

24 December 1860, baptised Isaac Robert, son of Isaac and Mary Jones.
24 December 1860, Mary Catherine Jones, daughter of Isaac and Mary Jones.
6 May 1865, Ann Ellen , daughter of Isaac and Mary Jones.

It look as though this is a different couple as the dates of birth would be impossible if it was the same people.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2019, 06:37:22 pm

You are correct about the nickname Rogo, it was Yr Ogof and anglicised and corrupted to Rogo.

According to Ivor Wynne Jones in his book Llandudno Queen of the Welsh resorts Isaac and Miriam lived in the cave for 40 years and had reared 15 children, including 3 sets of twins

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 17, 2019, 10:31:40 am

That is some feat and just goes to show how modern ideas about hygiene are suspect. I wonder where the other baptisms are?

I have found Miriam Owens in the 1861 census. She is a Boarder in the household of Evan Williams and his wife, Catherine. They are living in Bodidda in the parish of Gyffin. Miriam Owens is shown as unmarried, age 30 and a Foul Dealer by occupation, born Llangelynin. She has a daughter, Ellen Owens, age 11 months, born Liverpool.

Miriam appears to have been living in Gyffin in the 1841 and 1851 census returns. In the 1851 census, she is with her brother, John Owen, age 34 and a Fowl Dealer. John is married with two children,one of whom is named Keturah. John Owen was born in Dwygyfylchi

Had Pwllygwichiad ceased to exist by 1861? I cannot see it in that census and noticed how much Llandudno had been developed in the 10 years prior to that.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 17, 2019, 12:24:52 pm

Quote from: Helig on December 17, 2019, 10:31:40 am

Had Pwllygwichiad ceased to exist by 1861? I cannot see it in that census and noticed how much Llandudno had been developed in the 10 years prior to that.

Helig.

That has always been my belief.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 17, 2019, 01:16:58 pm

Thank you all.

I apologise for my absence from the forum over the last couple of days. I have been busy researching - and driving myself crazy!

I was not expecting you all to do so much research - very much appreciated. I will need to print off this string and go through it more carefully and cross reference names/dates.

Based on earlier info provided in this string, and since I am pretty confident in the Pwllygwichiad ancestry (still less so in the Yr Ogof connection - and have not yet connected the Yr Ogof family to the Pwllygwichiads) I have been focusing on the Richard Jones born/baptised in Llandudno in 1817 as my primary suspect as the father of Edward Jones. Llandudno baptism records (see attached) show Richard’s parents, Peter and Elizabeth Jones, were of Pwllygwichiad.

I have a Peter Jones (1787-1834) from others’ online trees but have been unable to verify that this is the correct Peter. Neither have I yet been able to confirmed the details of the Peter/Elizabeth marriage (circa 1800?).

I found other Peter/Elizabeth Jones childrens’ baptisms in Llandudno (FindMyPast) - but the image attached to the Richard entry is the only one that indicates Pwllygwichiad - so unable to confirm whether these are all siblings (particularly with the suspicious gap between the first and last named and the other, evenly spaced, children).

Elizabeth - 1792 (Gyffin)
Hugh - 1802
William - 1804
John - 1806
Robert - 1808
Margaret - 1810
Richard - 1817

Also still having difficulty making progress on finding Richard Jones’ marriage (circa 1830/35?) and any other children (espy Edward’s brother Joseph mentioned in his obituary).

I have, however, discovered - from my mother’s records - that Edward Jones married in 1899 in a Manchester Registry office with both he and his wife (Elizabeth Williams) having Manchester addresses at that time. Edward’s father, Richard, is shown as a fishmonger (no details as to where).

It seems that Richard may have relocated to Manchester(?) sometime in the mid/late 1800’s and may have married/had children there? I have found an envelope addressed to him in Manchester. The date stamp is smudged and illegible.

This might explain why Edward married there and why his brother, Joseph, came from Liverpool to Edward’s funeral?

Thank you all again for all your help.

(PS: I thought I had actually posted this yesterday - but must have made an error.)

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 17, 2019, 02:59:46 pm

I also meant to say that you have all done more than enough research on this topic on my behalf. Again - thank you.

Unless for your own interest, please do not feel the need to do more. My outstanding questions are largely rhetorical and not seeking answers from you!

Diolch eto.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 17, 2019, 08:23:54 pm

Perhaps, there are one or two facts here that may help your research.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 17, 2019, 09:31:12 pm

Thank you Bri Roberts. I presume this is from the book you recommended? (… Before the Hotels). I have ordered a copy.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 17, 2019, 11:45:16 pm

I don’t think it is.

It was probably given to me sometime we’ll before that book was published.

Anyway, credit for recommending Chris Draper’s book came from Hugo.

I simply provided the ISBN to help you purchase it.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 18, 2019, 03:55:06 am

My mistake. Sorry.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 18, 2019, 10:35:49 am

Just a few snippets.

One thing that I didn't mention which may be of interest to you is that there was a couple by the name of Peter and Elizabeth Jones baptising children in Llandudno in the 1860s. Could they be related to your family?

I noticed this one too: St Tudno, 9 September 1838, baptised Robert, son of Peter and Mary Jones.

St Tudno, 31 March 1865, baptised William, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones and Mary, daughter of Peter and Elizabeth Jones.

I wondered whether you might be related to the Yr Ogof Jones by Miriam Owen's line. She had links to Gyffin and Dwygyfylchi.

In the 1861 census I saw a family living at Gogarth Isaf, the head is Richard Jones, widower, age 92, Farmer of 30 acres, born Gyffin. He had a daughter Ellin age 57, unmarried and a son, Richard, age 52, unmarried, both born Llandudno. His servants included Margaret Jones, age 14, born Llangwstenin, and Joseph Jones, age 12, born Eglwys Rhos. On the next page there  is Isaac Jones, living in "Cave by Gogarth", unmarried, age 50 and occupation Boatman, born Amlwch.

Helig


 

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 19, 2019, 01:05:03 pm

Thank you to Helig, Bri Roberts  and Hugo. All of your input is incredibly useful.

Not only am I new to this forum, but also to genealogy - so I am finding it challenging to keep all the names and dates clear in my mind - particularly with so many similar names.

Helig, your last post may help connect some of the dots for me. I need to do more research based on this info. Too many Jones’!!

Having re-checked the tree I “inherited” from my mother, it appears some items may have been incorrect, maybe having been copied over, without verified sources, from others’ trees.

Here is what (I believe), I know:

My Gt. Gt. Grandfather - Edward Jones (1840/1 - 1905) lived in Hirael, Bangor and had seven children between 1874 and 1888, including my Gt. Grandfather, Richard (1877-1917).

All of the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census’ have his age as ~60 and his birth place shown as Penmaenmawr. I have not been able to find/confirm his pre 1881 location(s) or his birth details.

His obituary (incorrectly?) indicates that his age was 60 when he died (all census info suggest ~65) and that his father (my Gt. Gt. Gt. Grandfather) was Richard Jones of Pwllygwichiad Farm, Llandudno. No details of his mother. I am unable to confirm Richard’s details. I am currently presuming that he is the Richard baptised in Llandudno in 1817 (to parents Peter and Elizabeth Jones of Pwllgwichiad). His birth date seems about right and, so far, is the only Richard I have been able to connect to Pwllygwichiad.

Edward’s obituary also indicates that Edward had a brother, Joseph (born 1835/1850?), who came from Liverpool to attend his funeral. I have not found him yet.

The linkage between the Yr Ogof Jones’ and the Pwllygwichiad Jones’ still eludes me. Two Isaac Jones’ - one from Amlwch and one from Liverpool - who both married a Miriam? I am confused!

I am also still struggling to understand the actual timing and changing of address names (as reflected in the census’) for the Pwllygwichiad Farm location as building development occurred. Gogarth Isaf? Morfa?

I am going to take a break and intend to read the Llandudno Before the Hotels book over Christmas and plan to revisit this particular dead end in the New Year. I have a few others to focus on!

In the meantime, thank you all again and best wishes to all for Christmas and New Year.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 19, 2019, 02:52:01 pm

I hope that you enjoy the book and have a good read over the Christmas Holiday period.     It must be confusing for you with so many similar names but our combined local knowledge may help to locate your relatives
In the New Year  I'll have a look at the Baptism records for Llandudno that are in the Conwy Archives, they go back quite a long way and may hold some info of use for you.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 20, 2019, 10:52:28 am

I have searched the census returns for Edward Jones bc1841 and in the 1891 he appears to be living at 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor. Is that the right person please? It tends to fit with the information you have given.

There is a Grant of Probate for him showing he died on 6 April 1905. He was of 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor and a Boatman. Probate was granted to Ellen Jones, widow and Richard Jones, Fishmonger.

I think I have him in earlier census returns but will check before I send details.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 20, 2019, 02:22:33 pm

Yes, Helig, that is him. Thank you.

Richard is his son (my Gt. grandfather) and Ellen is his wife. Her second marriage.

I have found Edward, in Bangor, in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census’.

It’s his birth details and the period between 1841 and 1881 that I am missing.

I found an Edward (of the right age) showing up in the 1851 census in Holyhead. His father’s (Richard) details also fit - age/born Llandudno. It is, however, indicated that Edward was born in Bangor, not Penmaenmawr, as in the later census records.

So - not sure whether this is him - or why Richard & family would be living in Holyhead. Railway? Richard’s wife, Elizabeth, is also shown as Bangor born - so not sure that’s correct. I presume that declarations of birth location are not always accurate?

If this is the correct family, I have not yet been able to confirm where they headed after 1851.

Still no Joseph showing up.

Albeit I said I was stopping for Christmas, my research continues! This is way too frustrating (and addictive) a hobby!

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 20, 2019, 02:37:20 pm

Just to clear up one matter concerning Isaac Jones. There is only one person of that name who married Miriam Owen. It is the census returns which have conflicting information on his place of birth. Some of these show Liverpool and others show Amlwch, Anglesey. The Family Trees on Ancestry show he came from another place on Anglesey.

The location of Pwllygwichiad farm is Morfa according to the census returns for 1841 and 1851. Morfa means marsh, so it was close to the sea and fields which existed in those days. Gogarth Isa was situated in another area close to where the West Shore is today. It would have been close to the remains of Gogarth Abbey:

http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/965.html (http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/965.html)

If the details I have are correct, Edward Jones married Ellen Evans in Anglesey Registration District in 1873.

Are they together in Bangor in the 1861 census? They are servants in the household of Thomas Lewis, head, married, age 32, General Merchant. They are at Frondeg Cottage, Bangor. It shows Ellen Evans, age 27, Servant, born Bangor, plus Edward Jones, age 21, Servant, born Bangor. I note that their ages in this don't agree with those in the 1891 census.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 20, 2019, 03:01:08 pm

Thank you for the clarifications.

Good to know that there is only one Isaac Jones - born in Liverpool (correct?).

His birth location might explain whether subsequent generations visit/stay with his relatives and drop off the local records?

The Edward/Ellen marriage details are, I believe, correct. Ellen Evans (1846/Red Wharf Bay) was previously married to Owen Richards (in 1865) - so Edward and Ellen would not have been together in the census’ before 1881.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 20, 2019, 04:33:40 pm

Quote from: Bri Roberts on December 14, 2019, 02:07:26 pm

Pwyllygwychiad 1841

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county

Any further information on my ancestor will be most welcome.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 21, 2019, 11:54:58 am

The location of Isaac Jones's birth is open to speculation. On the 1871 and 1881 census returns he states it is Liverpool and on the 1861 it has Amlwch. The Family Trees for him on Ancestry show he was born in elsewhere in Anglesey. At present it isn't possible to find any baptism for him which is certain. There are baptisms on Freereg for Isaac Jones baptised Holyhead, St Cybi, on 30/07/1810, son of Richard and Elizabeth Jones. Also, 29/03/1813, baptised Isaac Jones, son of Hugh Jones and Elizabeth Perry at Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf.

The illegitimate daughter of Miriam Owen was born in Liverpool in 1860, so there was a connection to there.

I have found Ellen Jones in the 1911 census, she is still living at 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor. I noticed that she lived there whilst married to Owen Richards. They are there in the 1871 census with a son, William, age 1 and daughter, Margaret, age 3.

I am a bit intrigued by the occupation of Edward Jones shown as Naturalist in the 1881 census.

I wonder if Edward Jones is in Dwygyfylchi in the 1841 census. The Household is:

Richard Jones, age 20, Smith, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 25, born in county.
Peter Jones, age 3, born in county.
Edward Jones, age 7 months, born in county.

The location looks to be Penman Isa.

This appears to be the same family living in Holyhead in the 1851 census. Richard Jones was age 35 and a Blacksmith in that census. As the year of birth was rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years in the 1841, he could have been older than 20 then. His wife, Elizabeth, was age 39 in 1851. The age of Elizabeth is older than Richard, the same as the 1841. They also have a son, Peter, age 14 in 1851.

There is a baptism for Richard Jones in St Tudno, Llandudno, on 11 May 1817, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones. I think this is the person you suspect of being Edward's father.

Edward would have left home by 1861 but his family should be around. This search will be for another day!

There is a family in Llandudno with a son named Edward Jones, and he is aged 1 in the 1841 census. This is headed by Robert Jones age 25, Copper Miner, not born in county. They are living in Price St.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 21, 2019, 02:37:41 pm

Thank you Helig.

As you state, the Isaac Jones origin is still unclear. I am not spending too much time on the Yr Ogof lineage until/if I can make the clear link to the Pwllygwichiad family.

Ellen Jones (ex Richards, nee Evans) lived at 2 Water Street prior to Edward moving in. I noticed that Ellen’s youngest by Owen Richards shares the same birth year as Edward’s youngest? Hmm?

Not entirely sure what happened to Owen Richards - although think I found one who died in 1875 who was in the Denbigh mental hospital.

I saw the same Dwygyfylchi details. Still not yet able to verify the links from Peter to Edward.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 22, 2019, 02:42:31 pm

This was found by pure chance, burial in Llandudno of Peter Jones of Pwll y Gwichiaid, buried 29 March 1833, age 67 years and 7 months. The spelling of Pwll Y G. is as shown in the burial register. Same for the age which is much more precise than usual.

That puts his year of birth as c1765.

Children baptised in Llandudno for Peter and Elizabeth Jones as follows:

07/07/1806 John Jones
02/04/1808 Robert Jones
11/05/1817 Richard Jones


A Peter Jones was baptised in Llandudno on 19/09/1807, son of William and Mary Jones.

There is a marriage in Gyffin parish on 06/02/1792, Peter Jones, singleman and Elizabeth Evans, sinlgewoman, both of this parish. Both bride and groom made their mark, Witnesses were: Robert Williams and Richard Williams.

I found a baptism in Gyffin 23/09/1792 Elizabeth Jones, d/o Peter and Elizabeth Jones. Register states Peter Jones was a Miner.

There may be more but it isn't allowing me to do an advance search with Peter Jones as the father.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 22, 2019, 07:36:05 pm

Thank you Helig - and welcome to the rabbit hole!

So - based on what we currently believe/know - and this may be all we will know - I am going to go (at least for now) with Edward Jones' father being the Richard Jones of Pwllygwichiad that was baptised in 1817 in Llandudno to Peter Jones (~1765-1833) and his wife Elizabeth Evans (married in 1792 - further details TBD).

Given the ages of the several children believed to have been baptized to Peter and Elizabeth, I presume Elizabeth must have been several years younger than Peter. Peter would have been 52 when Richard was born/baptised.

I am then assuming that Richard Jones was living in Dwygyfylchi at the time of the 1841 census - with wife Elizabeth (details TBD) and sons Peter (~1838) and Edward (~1841).

The family next appears to show up in Holyhead in the 1851 census - with additional children Hugh (~1842), Elizabeth (~1844), Jonathan (~1846) and Ellen (~1849).

(Still no indication of the brother Joseph mentioned in Edward's obituary - and no other siblings are mentioned.)

So far, there is no indication of Richard and his family's whereabouts after 1851. Possible relocation to Manchester/Liverpool?

Edward next shows up in the 1881/1891 and 1901 census' in Bangor - married (in 1875) to Ellen Evans.

If this is the correct lineage, this would seem to kill off my Yr Ogof connection (unless there is a later link) since Peter's birth (1765) predates the arrival of Isaac and his subsequent marriage to Miriam by a few decades.

Diolch eto i bawb. Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 23, 2019, 03:53:47 pm

Bri Roberts

You’ve been at this way longer than I have, so probably already made this connection, but if not ………

If the above is correct, the Elizabeth Jones (nee Evans) born around 1771 looks like she is the mother to my Richard Jones (b1817) and your John Jones (b1806).

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 23, 2019, 06:13:37 pm

That has always been my assumption but I have no idea whatever became of my Gt Gt Gt Grandfather, John Jones, of Pwllygwichiad after 1841.

His illegitimate daughter born in 1838 eventually married an Atherton and a great many of her descendants are living in and around Llandudno today.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 24, 2019, 12:33:54 am

By illegitimate, I mean there is no name on the birth certificate but John Jones of Pwllygwichiad is named on the baptism record as being the father.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 24, 2019, 10:59:32 am

It gets more fascinating as it goes along.

KHCYMROCANADA, do you have a Family Tree on Ancestry? The reason I ask is that there are several on there for Peter Jones and his descendants. Have you looked at these?

They show Peter Jones born 1767, d1834, Pwllygwichiad who married Elizabeth Ann Boone, b1769, d1851, in Hawarden, Flints. No year of marriage is shown for them. Elizabeth Boone is shown as born Llanberis in 1769. There is no source for this. One tree shows they had 10 children. One daughter, shown, Catherine, has a date of birth as 24/06/1834, how did he manage that as he died in March 1833? Another tree has 9 children and again Catherine born June 1834. Yet another tree shows they had 16 children and connections to the USA.

I wonder where some of the details came from as there are few sources in any of them. There are some photos however.

Like you, I reckon Richard Jones went to Holyhead to work on the railway construction there. The first station was built in 1848 but replaced by a new one in 1851.

I wonder if Elizabeth Jones, wife of Peter is the same Elizabeth Jones shown at Pwllygwichiad in the 1841 census? What do you think?

The other query I have is whether some of the baptisms, marriages etc could be in non conformist chapels. I noticed that Edward's obituary showed he attended a non conformist chapel. Were other family members the same? That may be why some of the baptisms etc cannot be traced.

Incidentally, one of the trees on Ancestry shows Joseph, brother of Edward, as born Liverpool in 1855. It also has Richard Jones b1817, married to Elizabeth Coulborn but there is no source for this.

Have you thought of trying to see if Peter Jones, Richard Jones etc, left Wills? They might give a considerable amount of information in the event
they made these.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 24, 2019, 12:50:28 pm

Helig, the family tree I have is on Ancestry. I have looked at other trees and, so far, have not found them too helpful/reliable.

One of the issues I found is that, often, unverified/unsourced information is copied between trees. Sometimes info is copied across accidentally. I have found trees that contain info copied from mine.

I had both Elizabath Ann Boone and Elizabeth Coulborn in the tree I inherited, and presume they were copied across after exploring “hints”. I could not validate - or even find these people - so deleted.

I am going with the theory that the Elizabeth (age 70 in the 1841 census) is the Elizabeth Evans who married Peter in 1792.

I have posted “screenshots” of the baptisms I found in FindMyPast for Peter and Elizabeth Jones.

I saw the 1855 Joseph but could not verify.

I am not aware of any wills.

My theory of Richard going to Holyhead is speculation - and, as you say, fits with the timing of the railway construction.

If correct, the mystery is where he heads next. I have been unable to follow him and his family - until Edward shows up again in Bangor in 1881. I note that Bri Roberts appears to have a similar mystery with the gaps in his John Jones (Richard’s brother?) details post 1841.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 24, 2019, 12:58:31 pm

One theory I have is that, as the Pwllygwichiad farm land was developed - and the copper mine on Gt Orme was winding down (both around 1850?), that many of the Jones men-folk had to move away for work.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 24, 2019, 01:55:16 pm

That is correct because another line of my local ancestry moved over to Bethesda to work in the slate mines of the Penrhyn Quarry.

Many years ago, someone provided me with a timeline of sorts for Pwllygwichiad.

I shall try to find the times to search for it and post it here over the Xmas period.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 24, 2019, 04:44:26 pm

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest and it seems to be getting closer and closer to getting the answer that KH  has been looking for thanks to contributions from Helig and Bri Roberts  and of course KH
Referring again to Chris Draper's book there are 5 Jones families living on the Morfa which was adjacent to Pwllygwichiad and also some other Jones' who were tenant farmers in Llandudno.       Considering that the population of Llandudno in 1851 was only 1131 the chances of at least some of the Jones' being related is highly probable.    The only problem of course is establishing the link.
I may be wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one other forum member is related to KH

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 24, 2019, 05:50:35 pm

Yes - getting closer - thank you to all.

Bri - I have searched through the Caernarvonshire records and cannot find my Richard - so was thinking he may have moved further afield - maybe Eastwards to the coal mining areas. My elusive Joseph may have been born away? 

One of my Llanllechid based slate quarryman ancestors did this.

BTW Bri - I also have (other) sides of both my wife's and my family - both Hughes' - that moved from Anglesey to Llanllechid/Bethesda for work at Penrhyn Quarry. So far, however, I don't believe I married a relative!!

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 24, 2019, 06:39:34 pm

Well mine eventually married a widow from up in Gerlan and took over the running of the bakery.

From memory, this was an Evans and not a Jones 😆

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: PhilMick on December 26, 2019, 10:36:05 am

Saw this on facebook

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1294237984102043&set=gm.2892150507462428&type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1294237984102043&set=gm.2892150507462428&type=3&theater)

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2019, 05:34:00 pm

That's very interesting and I presume that Richard Hughes was the same person listed at No 15 in Chris Draper's book ( pg 198 ) it also gives KH  and Bri Roberts another source for any info on the families

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 27, 2019, 03:09:14 am

Thank you PhilMick and Hugo.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 27, 2019, 04:56:09 pm

I had a look at the online catalogue for the Conwy Archives and this item appeared when I put in "Pwllygwichiad" into their search engine.   The article shows that there is actually a photo of Richard Hughes in the Conwy Archives records
There are only 5 items listed there for Pwllygwichiad but each one may provide an interesting and valuable bit  of info for KH and Bri and importantly there are photos too to put a face to a name

CP137/1
Teitl / Title   Richard Hughes
Ddisgrifiad / Description   copper miner, and a contractor for the building of Marine Drive, Llandudno. He originated in Amlwch, co. Anglesey and came to Llandudno in 1833 to work in the copper mines. In 1834 he married Catherine, dau. Peter and Elizabeth Jones, Pwllygwichiad Farm.

[The importance of this picture cannot be overestimated, as it shows the dress of a typical copper miner, although it is in fact a studio portrait. A later photograph appeared in an article in the Llandudno Advertiser, showing an older Richard Hughes and wife at the same location, the editor of the newspaper c. 1920 being a family member, Arthur R Hughes.

Photographer: W S Laroche, The Rock Studio, Marine Drive, Great Orme. Home address: Ty Fry, Old Road, Llandudno [see advertisement on dorse].

A second article mentions Joseph Jones

CD4/33/10/6
Teitl / Title   DRAFT TRANSER OF MORTGAGE
Ddisgrifiad / Description   1 William Hughes of 1 Castle Street, Conway, gent
2. Joseph Jones of Centre Vale, pa of Llandudno, lodging house keeper
3. Anne Emmons of Plough Inn, town of Kidsgrove, Stafford, widow

Re parcel of land, part of certain field on Pwllygwichiad Farm, by Tudno Street, Llandudno, for securing £500.
Dyddiad / Date   1874 May 15
Graddau / Extent   1 item
Lefel / Level   

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 27, 2019, 05:03:48 pm

A third article has this

CP137/2
Teitl / Title   Group portrait
Ddisgrifiad / Description   William and Jane Jones

and ? Mr and Mrs William Hughes

.

[Jane Hughes descended from Richard Hughes, who married Catherine Jones of Pwllygwichiad Farm, Llandudno.

[On tin plate. Negative exists]
Dyddiad / Date   c. 1890
Graddau / Extent   1 item

If anyone is interested in the above please visit this link
https://www.conwy.gov.uk/en/Resident/Libraries-Museums-and-Archives/Archives/Search-the-Archives/Online-Catalogue.aspx (https://www.conwy.gov.uk/en/Resident/Libraries-Museums-and-Archives/Archives/Search-the-Archives/Online-Catalogue.aspx)
Lefel / Level   Item

A 4th article has this letter

CX140/1/6
Teitl / Title   LETTER
Ddisgrifiad / Description   William Hughes to his brother and sister [Arthur's parents?]. Gives family news about Harriet [WH's wife] who has been unwell but is recovering. Comments that his brother and sister have been to a lecture by Spinther James on the subject of Hugh James, Pwllygwichiad. It is many years since that house was demolished: he played there many times. WH saw Spinther James's grave at Llanfwrog near Ruthin. Recounts a story about his preaching and says that at his death his assets were shared out between the Pwllygwichiad family. Grandmother got about £50 and WH delivered it to her at Tre'ddol near Aberystwyth. Sends warmest regards to the naturalist.

Endorsed:
NOTE re George Brookes Jones, son of Thomas Jones, miner, Tan-y-rogo, June 1853.

[Welsh]
Dyddiad / Date   1

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 28, 2019, 09:34:45 am

Some very interesting information there, Hugo.

As promised here is another document that I have had for many years because of my own interest in John Jones and Pwllygwichiad.

Please let me know if there are any facts that are helpful.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 28, 2019, 11:48:36 am

There is something in The National Library of Wales as well. The link is here:

https://archives.library.wales/index.php/peter-jones-from-pwllygwichiad-to-ed-lloyd-esq-cefn

https://discover.library.wales/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=44NLW_ATM_486503&context=L&vid=44WHELF_NLW_NUI&lang=en_US&search_scope=LSCOP_INLIBRARY&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=tab4&query=any,contains,pwllygwichiad

This was based on a search for Pwllygwichiad, could there be more for Peter Jones?

I was curious to see who the children were with Elizabeth Jones in the 1841 census. There were John Jones, age 9, Owen Jones, age 5 and Harriet Jones age 3. These were her grandchildren by her son Robert Jones, born 1808. Their baptisms were in St Hilary, Llanrhos and St Tudno and as follows:

John Jones, 16 May 1833, baptised St Hilary, Llanrhos.
Owen Jones, 11 January 1836, baptised St Tudno.
Harriet Jones, 9 September 1838, baptised St Tudno.

The parish registers for the baptisms of Owen and Harriet Jones show Robert Jones as of Pwllygwichiad and a Farmer.

Robert Jones was married to Elizabeth and the marriage appears to have been on 13 November 1831, St Tudno, Robert Jones, bachelor, to Elizabeth Owens, spinster. Witnesses were: Joseph Lawes, Margaret Lawes and Robert Roberts.

It appears Elizabeth Jones was close to her son, Robert. This is borne out by the fact she is living with him and his family in the 1851 census. They are living in Calcot, Holywell, Flintshire. Robert is a Farmer of 100 acres employing 3 labourers. John, Owen and Harriet are there as well as 3 other children of the couple. There is also Elizabeth Jones, widow, age 82, born Llanberis, shown as "Mother of H?", which would be Head, ie Robert Jones. They have 3 employees, one of whom is Jane Owens, age 16, House Servant, born Llanberis.

The Llanberis connection could be significant as Elizabeth Owens, Robert's wife is shown as born Llanberis too. Could Jane be a relative of his wife?

I have been unable to locate a burial for Elizabeth Jones, do you know when and where she was buried?

It wasn't possible to trace Robert Jones there in the 1861 census but he is in Bagillt, Holywell in the 1871.

I searched for Richard Jones b1817 and the only one that might have been him (with wife Elizabeth) was in Liverpool. It is difficult to say for certain if it is the right person.

It is the same for John Jones b1806, I found a census entry for a John Jones in Liverpool, but it isn't possible to say for certain if it is the same man. I will post details again to you can see for yourselves.

I am wary of duplicating searches that have already been done. It seems the information that is required is as follows:

Peter Jones bc1765 - baptism, father's details, further children and marriage to Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, wife of Peter Jones, baptism and death/burial.

Richard Jones b1817 - marriage to Elizabeth, children, census entries after 1851 and death.

Edward Jones b1840 - baptism and 1861 census entry.

There may be clues to the whereabouts of Richard Jones by getting the details of his children's marriages. The certificates should show if he is alive anyway.

I am not familiar with the history of Pwllygwichiad, or the social standing of the Jones family from there. Can someone enlighten me please? Were they are high social standing in the area?

The National Library of Wales has entries for a Will for Peter Jones dated 1835, plus a Bond dated 1834. It isn't possible to say if it is the same person.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 28, 2019, 11:17:00 pm

Thanks for all of the above. More fodder for research - and maybe helpful in joining dots between Pwllygwichiad and Yr Ogof Jones’.

Helig - I have no sense that the Pwllgwichiad Jones’ were of high social status.

In the meantime, I believe that I may have filled a couple of my gaps.

After finding the family in Holyhead (1851 Census), I found Richard and family - including the elusive Joseph - in 1855. Several of the children were baptised in Liverpool on the same day in 1855.

This then led me - based on the name shown in another’s tree - to look for and find the marriage (in Liverpool) in 1835 between Richard Jones (father Peter - a farmer) and Elizabeth Cowburne (not Colbourn as indicated in others’ trees). Elizabeth’s father is shown as Edward Cowburne - a mariner.

This may support one theory that the Jones family had non-local connections and so may have dropped off the Caernarvonshire records from time to time? Makes me wonder whether these connections might also predate Peter? If so, might also provide a clue as to where Bri’s John Jones may have gone after 1841?

I also learned that Edward Jones (1841-1905) had a daughter, Ruth, with Mary Roberts, before he married Ellen Evans. Both marriage details are unclear. This now explains, however, how there were 2 children aged 8 (one Richards) with Edward and Ellen in the 1881 census. Not yet figured out what happened to Mary.

Credit for much of the above is due to the work of Mark Parry-Jones (tree on Ancestry) and Ian Parry-Jones (Bri - this is your pjoslo, also has a tree on Ancestry) who, I believe, both descend from Lizzie Jones -  one of Edward’s daughters - who married a Parry-Jones.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on December 28, 2019, 11:40:18 pm

Re above post.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 29, 2019, 11:19:02 am

I would just like to add something to the Certificate and that is that Queen Street is now called Cwlach Street and that is a fact because my relatives once lived there.  In fact it is a slightly elevated terrace of 4 little cottages once owned by George Brookes  (pg 170 of the book I have mentioned previously)
The Tithe barn may have been the one mentioned on the land belonging to Pwllygwichiad

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 29, 2019, 01:32:17 pm

This is Queen Street as mentioned on the Certificate

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 29, 2019, 03:20:36 pm

Yes, there is clear evidence of a Liverpool connection to this family. You will recall this is the same as Isaac and Miriam Jones.

I searched the baptisms for Richard and Elizabeth Jones in Liverpool and came up with these:

Martha Jones, baptised 05/03/1851, born 1851.
Mary Jones, baptised 25/01/1852
Samuel Jones, baptised 22/12/1852
Hugh Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Ellen Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Joseph John Jones, baptised 20/05/1855, born 1855.
Harriott Jones, baptised 20/05/1855, born 1852.
Edward Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Elisabeth Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Jonathon Jones, baptised 20/05/1855.
John Jones, baptised 18/04/1855, born 1854.
Elizabeth Jones, baptised 15/04/1860, born 1860.
Harriett Asquith Jones, baptised 20/01/1861

I think you would need to examine to parish registers to establish whether they are the same couple baptising these children. This would also give you the address where they lived at the time.

The Richard and Elizabeth Jones I found in the 1871 census in Liverpool were living at 14 Dale St, Richard age 52, Labourer born Wales. Elizabeth age 51, born Wales. This couple have no children with them.

This is the problem with the census entries for Liverpool as people from Wales weren't given a specific place of birth, just Wales.

I cannot find John Jones in Liverpool after getting something like him in the census there the other day!

Do you have any idea when and where Richard Jones died? The Ancestry trees show his death as 1875 but no location.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on December 30, 2019, 05:11:45 am

Helyg, can I refer you to the first paragraph in my previous post?

Reference was made to a family member, Mark Hughes, who I believe has a lot of the information currently missing.

I am of the opinion that this is the same Mark Hughes who is the Administrator of the Facebook group “Llandudno in Old Photographs”.

Mark was very busy when I last asked him for assistance but that was a number of years ago.

Someone new now asking may have better luck than I did.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Cambrian on December 30, 2019, 08:59:16 am

Can I just refer to the marriage certificate shown above.  Unfortunately, in this case, the addresses "Queen St" and "Tithe Barn St" are not Llandudno addresses.

The old Liverpool maps on Mapsnls, show St Nicholas' Church, near the Pierhead, is within a very short distance of both these streets.  CofE practice would have shown the name of the resident parish (as Banns would have had to have been read) if one or both of the parties lived out of the parish where the ceremony was performed. As no other parish is mentioned, the conclusion is both streets are within the parish of Liverpool.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on December 30, 2019, 09:45:00 am

The baptisms listed on my previous post are online on the Bishops' Transcripts on Ancestry. These show that the only baptisms for Richard and Elizabeth Jones from Llandudno are those that took place on 20 May 1855. They show Richard to be a Blacksmith and the abode was Atherton Street, Liverpool.

I cannot locate the family in Liverpool in the 1861 census however.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on December 30, 2019, 11:09:22 am

Quote from: Cambrian on December 30, 2019, 08:59:16 am

Can I just refer to the marriage certificate shown above.  Unfortunately, in this case, the addresses "Queen St" and "Tithe Barn St" are not Llandudno addresses.

The old Liverpool maps on Mapsnls, show St Nicholas' Church, near the Pierhead, is within a very short distance of both these streets.  CofE practice would have shown the name of the resident parish (as Banns would have had to have been read) if one or both of the parties lived out of the parish where the ceremony was performed. As no other parish is mentioned, the conclusion is both streets are within the parish of Liverpool.

Thanks very much for correcting that comment of mine about Queen Street in Llandudno and looking again at the certificate it would confirm the Liverpool address is correct
It has no bearing whatsoever on this thread but I have attached a copy of the 1861 Census showing that my relations lived in Queen Street Llandudno at No 22

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on January 02, 2020, 12:46:41 pm

The marriage of Joseph Jones took place on 13 March 1881 at St James's Church, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool. The details are:

Joseph Jones, age 24, bachelor, Sailor, residence 4 Bere St, father: Richard Jones, Smith
Mary Bickerstaff, age 22, spinster, residence 53 Mann Street, father: William Bickerstaff, Block Maker

Witnesses were: Jonathon Jones and Rosena Wotton.

1881 census Joseph and Mary are living at 8 Lampart St, Liverpool. The details are:

Joseph Jones, Head, age 24, Mariner, born Liverpool
Mary Jones, wife, age 22, born Liverpool.

1891 census has Joseph Jones living in Upper Mann St, Liverpool, it shows 3 at 83 court there. The details are;

Joseph J Jones, Head, married, age 33, Barge Flatman, born Liverpool
Mary Jones, wife, age 31, born Liverpool
Lydia Jones, daughter, age 7, born Liverpool
William Henry Jones, son, age ??? it has 5 with a line through it and 2 months crossed out. Born Liverpool
Joseph J Jones, son, age 2 months, born Liverpool.

There is a death in Liverpool for Joseph John Jones, in 1926. He was age 70 years.

I am certain of the marriage being the right one but cannot guarantee the census returns are for him as there is more than one person of that name in Liverpool.

Helig.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on January 04, 2020, 09:09:47 am

Thank you Helig.

If correct, it will fill in another piece of my tree - although my primary reason in finding Joseph was to confirm that I had the correct Richard as Edward’s father.

Please advise the record source of your finding. The details seem to corroborate that this is the correct Joseph (Father Richard - a blacksmith - and witness Jonathan - his brother?). Before adding to my tree, however, I would like to do a bit more research to try to confirm that the Joseph born/baptised in 1855 is the same one marrying at age 24 in 1881.

You have been more than helpful in my research. Please do not feel that you need to pursue further on my behalf.

I note you have started another thread for Bri Roberts’ ancestor, John Jones. I will follow this with interest.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on January 04, 2020, 10:14:07 am

The information on the marriage of Joseph Jones came from Ancestry. The marriage certificate is available on that site. It is the same for the census returns, both on Ancestry.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on January 04, 2020, 10:53:20 am

One thing that has just occurred to me is that the information on the marriage certificate for Joseph Jones indicates that Richard Jones was still alive at that time. There is nothing to the effect he was deceased but they don't always state that, so it isn't reliable.

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on January 04, 2020, 12:49:41 pm

Thank you Helig. Now found it - came up easier when I searched under Bickerstaff.

The age difference in the marriage and census details is still confusing.

The 1926 death at age 70 ties better with the known 1855 baptism.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on January 04, 2020, 01:36:27 pm

The address quoted on the marriage certificate is 4 Vere Street, Liverpool. The occupants in the 1881 census are Richard Ralph (born Kent ~1837) with his wife Elizabeth (born Bangor ~1847) and her brother Jonathan Jones (born Bangor ~1849).

Helig, this seems to indicate that you have found the correct Joseph - although the difference in stated ages is still confusing.

The varying levels of literacy - and possibly poor English language skills - may contribute to many of the differences in name spellings, birth dates etc. that result in confusing the records?

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Hugo on January 07, 2020, 05:54:27 pm

Quote from: Hugo on December 27, 2019, 05:03:48 pm

A 4th article has this letter

CX140/1/6
Teitl / Title   LETTER
Ddisgrifiad / Description   William Hughes to his brother and sister [Arthur's parents?]. Gives family news about Harriet [WH's wife] who has been unwell but is recovering. Comments that his brother and sister have been to a lecture by Spinther James on the subject of Hugh James, Pwllygwichiad. It is many years since that house was demolished: he played there many times. WH saw Spinther James's grave at Llanfwrog near Ruthin. Recounts a story about his preaching and says that at his death his assets were shared out between the Pwllygwichiad family. Grandmother got about £50 and WH delivered it to her at Tre'ddol near Aberystwyth. Sends warmest regards to the naturalist.

Endorsed:
NOTE re George Brookes Jones, son of Thomas Jones, miner, Tan-y-rogo, June 1853.

[Welsh]
Dyddiad / Date   1

The letter was apparently written on the 18th Jan 1912 and I am intrigued by the reference to the name Spinther James.     In Glanwydden  James "Spinther" James was the Pastor of the Baptist Chapel for 20 years.   He was also a writer and historian and did lectures too.     However he died on the 5th November 1914 and is buried at the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden
It seems strange that there could be two Spinther James' doing the same type of work in the same town

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Helig on January 08, 2020, 10:47:02 am

Just a thought but is there any chance that Elizabeth Ralph and Jonathon Jones in the 1881 census were the children of Richard Jones? That would make Elizabeth the sister of Joseph.

The years of birth and place of birth in the census returns tend to be unreliable from my experience

Helig

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: KHCYMROCANADA on January 09, 2020, 01:09:13 am

Yes, Helig, that is my assumption re Richard Ralph et al.

I know nothing about Spinther Jones - or where/if he fits into the Pwllygwichiad family.

Title: Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 10, 2021, 06:35:07 am

For over 30 years, I have never been 100% certain that I am a direct descendant of John Jones of Pwllygwichiad.

However, this lockdown allowed me to subscribe to Ancestry.co.uk as well as having my DNA checked out.

As a consequence, I can confirm that me and KHCYMROCANADA are definitely related.

I also have DNA matches with other identified descendants of Peter and Elizabeth Jones.