Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: ckirkrph on December 01, 2016, 07:36:33 pm
-
Hello all, I am new to this so any help would of course be appreciated. My name is Chad Kirk, reside in Virginia, US and have definitely caught this Ancestry.com bug. I am fo 1851cusing on the Jones family in Llandudno. The father is listed as a Pierce Jones (1850-1922) a master plasterer. I think he may have been married more than once, but I have a wife listed as Jane Anne Williams Jones (1851-1897). They of course had several children, Kate Jones b.1875, John b.1876, Lizzie (Bessie) b. 1878, Annie Maria b. 1881, Percy b. 1883, Grace E. b.1885, Harry b. 1887, Henry b.1887, Richard Benjamin Robert b. 1890, Mary Jane b. 1893. There may be a few more with the multiple marriages. I believe there is someone already looking into Grace E. and if they would like to contact me I would love to hear and trade any info as I believe Grace E. and my Great great grandmother (Annie Maria Jones) would have been sisters. I do have some pics of the family but unfortunately none of Grace, but I will definitely start digging deeper. regarding Annie Maria, sadly she had a very short life, she married an Alfred Kirk in 1900 and had 3 children, 2 having survived. They were William Pierce Kirk, and his younger brother John Reginald Archibald Kirk. the 1911 census showed me that Alfred had John R. A. Kirk living with him as a boarder, and William P. Kirk was living with his mother's side, head of this house was Pierce Jones. They had lost their mother a few years earlier in 1909 according to death records. Ultimately both boys ended up in an orphanage, and were sent to Halifax. I believe Alfred remarried and started a new family... Fast forward a 100 years and you have me in Virginia with the last name Kirk. I am interested in finding out more about the Jones family, filling in some gaps I have on Pierce (the plasterer), where Annie Maria was buried as I am planning a trip over to pay respects, and of course see where they lived. I have some old pics passed down and one is written as William "Tidi" Jones, another William "Banor" Jones, but BOTH are said to have been Annie Maria's father....?? I have that name as Pierce Jones, could it have been a nickname? I know I have the correct group because on the marriage document of Alfred and Annie Maria, the father of the bride is listed as Pierce, and Lizzie (Bessie) Jones is an attender of the wedding. Alfred's father is listed as a William Kirk, who I believe was a butler? Anyways, sorry to throw so much out there, of course there are things I am leaving out, but I am trying to gather as much info as I can before I come over, and of course anybody who is looking into this branch I would be happy to help with research through Ancestry.com if I am able. Thanks! Chad Kirk.
-
Hi Chad, welcome to the forum and hope that we can help you in your research. We have had a look at Mull's Grandfather's side of the family which has taken us to Llandegfan in Anglesey but I've had a quick look through a free Census record today and if what I've found is correct then Pierce is a local person.
The town of Llandudno in those days had two parishes, Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and although various Census records have different parishes on them I believe that Pierce was from the Parish of Eglwysrhos and lived in a house called Tan y wal.
If that is correct then there will be a lot of information in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno that will help in your research.
With regard to the photos Tidi is the affectionate name for Taid which means Grandfather in English, So William Jones is Annie's Grandfather. Now the other William "Banor" Jones could also be the other Grandfather and "Banor" just distinguishes one Taid from the other. Maybe he came from Bangor just up the coast but I'm only guessing as there is no Welsh word Banor
I've had a quick look at the 1891 Census and noticed that Jane was from Bangor so my hunch could be correct and the name should have been William "Bangor" Jones and he would have been the other Grandfather
-
Chad, I think that I've found some info on Pierce Jones but will need to establish some things before saying for certain that he is yours and Mull's ancestor.
He first appears in the 1851 Census and must have been born around Sept or Oct 1850. The family lived at Tan Y Wal in the Parish of Eglwysrhos and his parents were John and Elizabeth Jones. These are the details from the Census:-
John Jones Head age 34 Stone Mason born Llangystennin
Elizabeth " wife 34 " Llanbedr
Anne " dau 4 " Llanrhos
Joseph " son 2 " "
Pierce " " 6 months " "
In 1861 Pierce was living and working for John Hughes a Farm Bailiff at Bodafon and was a Stable boy aged just 11
In the 1871 Census Pierce was living back in Tan Y Wal and his father John must have dies between the Census dates. The 1871 Census details are as follows:-
Elizabeth Jones Head Aged 59 Labourer's widow born Caerhun
Pierce " son " 20 Labourer " Eglwysrhos
John " " " 13 scholar " "
Anne " dau " 24 dressmaker " "
Just an add on for your info. The Parish of Eglwysrhos is the original name but you may see it sometimes as Llanrhos. Elizabeth Jones the wife was born in Llanbedr Y Cennin which is in the Parish of Caerhun so again you might see either name or even just Llanbedr but it's the same place.
-
Hey there! yes sir, that is definitely my guy, I hope you do not mind me butting in, but when I saw the mention of Grace Ellen I knew he was talking about the same Jones folks. I do believe Pierce was a local, some interesting articles I have found mentioning him and his plastering etc. Thank you SO much for the tidi, banor thing, it has been a mystery for us over on this side of the water for years, I may have never figured it out. I think when 2 of Pierce's grandsons went to Halifax (John Reginald Archibald Kirk and his bro William Pierce Kirk) they brought over these pics, so when they were written as Tidi etc it perhaps was referring to their grandfather, which if I am thinking correctly then I think that these pics labeled tidi might be Pierce Jones, could his name have been William but he went by Pierce? The pics again, tidi and banor to me look like the same gentleman, one is him standing tall more formal dressed, the other is him rowing off the coast. I also realize that sometimes over the years names are incorrectly added to pictures, so the other Grandfather's 1st name was William as in William Kirk, listed as a bailiff, not William Jones, again unless Pierce was named William but went by Pierce?? Gosh, confusing stuff!! I am going to try to see if the other person you have been helping might let me see any of the pictures of Pierce or anybody related to see if they aren't the one and same! I appreciate the info on the home name (Tan Y Wal), is it still there? I am now trying to find out where one of Pierce's daughters is buried, Annie Maria Kirk (Jones), my GGGrandmother, I wonder if Grace Ellen if she stayed in the area would also be buried there? I of course would love to send any pics I have to the other party as we are apparently family! My email is kirk18@cox.net Sorry for all the questions, but I have been working on this for a while, and to find you guys is too exciting!! Chad Kirk
-
Tan y Wal is still there in Penrhynside but has been enlarged in recent years. My nain Grace Ellen lived there from during WW2 194x until she was taken ill in 1959. She then came to live with us in Liverpool and after suffering a stroke in December she died in Walton Hospital on 29 December 1961.
Grace Ellen is buried in St Tudnos Cemetery on the Great Orme, Llandudno. Grave space 11 in Section H.
The plot was purchased by Grace Ellen on 17 August 1937 for burial of her husband John Jones (Llandegfan). I still have the certificate for this plot issued by Urban District Council Llandudno.
Chad descrition of photos sound very similar to ones in my posession. Unfortunately there is no mention on them of who they are. When I have time I will try to get them on here.
-
Hey Mull,
I will post my pictures as soon as possible as well. It is great to correspond with you. I will try to send you as much as I can about the siblings of Grace Ellen at least if you are interested. Pierce Jones has been somewhat a mystery to me, not as much as following him on the census, but I am working with another member of the family and he nor I have been able to locate a birth certificate for Pierce. really does make me wonder if his given name was not Pierce? I do have access to Ancestry but unfortunately have not been able to find it yet, to put a definite on his given name etc. Thanks for the burial info on Grace Ellen as I am trying to locate where Annie Maria was buried, now I have a place to look. I wish I could have known her. Although Virginia has a nice climate, it does seem I have been missing out on Llandudno and surrounding areas as it looks beautiful, looking forward to getting over there. Okay, I hope you are well, again nice to be able to hear some of the stories and gather information along the way. I can direct you to my Ancestry.com family page if you might be interested in seeing as I have added the majority of the pictures there, and more importantly I would like to add you and your branch to the tree! Chad Kirk
-
Chad, Tan Y Wal is still there and is now a listed building. It's in Bryn Gwynt Lane Penrhynside and is not far from Llandudno.
With regard to Pierce, that is probably his correct name but we know from the Census records that he was born in Penrhynside in 1850. The Parish records for Eglwysrhos may be in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno and they will record the birth and will have the same information that you will see on a birth certificate.
I'm hoping to go to the Archives next week so will have a look and post my findings on here.
-
Chad, I've copied this from the other thread with Grace E Jones so you can see Tan Y Wal cottage where the family once lived.
I went to Bryn Gwynt Lane today to take a photo of Tan Y Wal but initially I couldn't find the cottage so I asked an elderly gentleman where it was and he pointed out the cottage which was next door and lower down the hill.
I then had a very interesting chat with Mr Roberts who has lived in the village all his life. He remembers Hugh Hughes the cobbler very well and said that when he was a boy he used to go into Hugh's workplace and watch him repairing shoes. He added that Hugh was not just a cobbler because he used to make boots and shoes also and was very good at doing so.
I had to ask him about Hugh's alleged habit of chewing tobacco and he confirmed that this was true and that Hugh used to spit it out into the fire when he had finished chewing the stuff!
I went up to the cottage through the wide grassy gate as the smaller gate was blocked by the undergrowth. The photos show the gate, the view of the cottage from the lane and then the cottage itself. The views are very good from up there but today was overcast so the photo does not do it justice.
-
There is a birth registration for Pierce Jones in the December quarter of 1850 in Conwy Registration District. It is Volume 27, Page 335. It is possible to order the birth certificate for a small fee.
Pierce Jones appears to have died in 1922 as there is a death registration for him in Conwy Registration District in June 1922. He was aged 71 years.
As regards the death of Anna Maria Kirk (Jones) do you know when and where she died please?
Helig.
-
Just looking for clues about Anna Maria Jones on Ancestry. There is a Family Tree on that site which shows she died in July 1909 in Solihull, Warwickshire.
In the 1911 census, Pierce shows he has had 11 children of whom 8 are living and 3 have died. Have you traced all of these? The census shows that he has been married for 25 years. This is a mystery as the details for his wife agree in each of the census returns going back to 1881. The marriage is in Conwy in 1874 and to Jane Anne Williams. The tree shows her as having died in the USA, is that right?
There are other details which I won't post but look to be of interest. There is a lovely photo of Anna Maria and she looks to have been very glamorous.
Helig
-
Chad, I have not forgotten you. I will put some pictures up when I get a chance.
So far Hugo, Helig, Philmac are coming up with so much information and photos it is hard to keep up with it all.
Poor Tan y Wal , it looks very neglected.
MY memories go back to 194x to 1959.
Photo 1.
I remember the footpath from the iron gate, which had the house name on, up to the patio and the front door.
The wide grassy gate did not exist then it was a high wall topped with broken glass embedded in cement. Not sure that would be legal now.
Vehicle access was straight up from the village via a track to the right of the attached houses.
Photo 3.
Main house outer wall was level with the chimney stack. There was a WC/ Washroom alongside. An upper floor has now been added. This washroom had a masony wash tub heated by a coal fired grate underneath.
My Nains bedroom was the room below the Saterlite dish.
Kitchen of the cottage was a room on the back of the house built partly into the rock face.
Photo 4.
This was the view from Hughs workbench. Now looks very overgrown and neglected, large trees are now blocking the view.
From the workshop you could see trains approaching Colwyn Bay beyond Bryn Euryn.
He looked after the extensive grounds which were well kept growing vegetables.
There was a coal fired stove which Hugh never missed on spitting out his tobacco, I can hear the sizzle now.
To the west of Tan y Wal was a detached house with a large pigeon loft. Owner was very into pigeon racing.
There were 2 houses attached to Tan y Wal. Next door was a Mr & Mrs Hughes. I remember they had a daughter Neris. I think Neris went to live at Fferm outside Llanrhos. Sometime in the 1980s she contacted my father as she was compiling a history of Penrhyn side . A short pamphlet was produced but i can not lay my hands on it at the moment.
Next door to Mr & Mrs Hughes lived Mr & Mrs Pierce who had the butchers shop in Penrhynside.
Hope these ramblings of an old man are of interest. Looking forward to our visit in January.
-
Mull, just as an add on to my last posting the house name of Tan Y Wal is no longer on the iron gate and I could see no sign of it in the undergrowth either. Mr Roberts, the gentleman I spoke to yesterday believed that the cottage may be up for sale although there were no signs up to confirm this.
He lived in Bryn Teg which is the creamy coloured cottage at the bottom of Bryn Gwynt Lane (see photo) but now lives in the cottage next up from Tan Y Wal ( see cottage by the car in the photo)
When I told him what I was doing he mentioned the " blue books" which described the village of Penrhynside but I don't know if he meant Ken Dibble's or Nerys'
The Archives are closed this week but I'm hoping to go there next week when they reopen as I've listed one or two things that I need to follow up.
-
I have been looking on the internet today for Tan y Wal.
Seems a planning application was submitted in 2010 for Tan y Wal land be divided in two. Permission was sought for 2 new houses to be built on this land. The application was declined.
Another application was submitted in 2013 for this land to build a single house. Despite a lot of local opposition on what I would consider good grounds, even making it into the Daily Post, the council planning comittee agreed the application should go ahead.
I am not suprised, we vote these idiots in to represent us but when in office they do the opposite. I had a bad experience when I lived in Yatton, Somerset. Seems they are the same all over the UK.
Hugo--any sign of building work starting.
I found an advert by Berisford Adams for the sale of Tan y Wal for offers over £120,00.
I rang them and asked for details but lady advised the house had been withdrawn from the market a while ago.
Pictures of the house on the advert shows it in a neglected state both inside and out. Shrubs and trees growing next to the walls will not do the foundations of this Grade 2 Listed house much good.
On a smaller scale, but same treatment as Gogarth Abbey/ North Weston-Tudno Castle.
Zoopla shows Tan y Wal for rent at £460 PCM.
Thanks for the latest pictures,
Photo 1
This house is across the lane from the access track up to Tan y Wal.
Photo 2.
The house on the right hand corner is were I watched to Stanley Mathews Cup Final, Blackpool v Bolton W. Most of the men from the village packed into the room watching it on a screen hardly bigger than an A4 page.
Photo 3.
The house with the big pigeon loft was on the opposite side of the lane to were the car is parked.
-
I couldn't see any evidence whatsoever that building work had started but must admit that I didn't look too closely and just took the photos and then left. It did look like vehicles had used the gap in the wall as an entrance to the site but there was no building material or excavations about.
In the 1950's and 60's I remember that Pigeon racing was a big thing in Penrhynside and my friend's father who lived in Llandudno had a Pigeon loft behind the old Llandudno FC ground. He had relatives in Penrhynside too.
I think that the cream coloured house at the bottom of the lane is called Bryn Teg and Mr Roberts who was an only child lived there with his parents, I wonder if you can remember him?
He also told me about a lady who looked after Huw Hughes but said that he thought her name was Miss Hughes
-
Hey there,
Sorry been working longer hours than I had wanted and beem meaning to respond sooner. Thank you very much for the pics of Tan Y Wal, I wa trying to google pics and had some really mysterious places come up, thanks for showing me the correct spot. I can imagine how it would have looked in its glory days, would loved to have seen it when Mull was there with his gram! I agree things with Pierce are strange somewhat, I think he might have been married twice but get turned in circles sometimes when researching... I know Annie Maria was born1880 she was married at The Parish Church in Llandudno December 12th, 1900 to Alfred Kirk. Alfred's father is listed as William a bailiff, and Annie Maria's father is listed as Pierce Jones Plasterer. Her age is listed as 20 years, and Alfred's is 30. Those in attendance were Henry Fowler (do not know anything of him yet) and Annie's sister Bessie Jones. I will also tell you they have our last name listed as Kirth, not Kirk, but when looking at the original is is in fact Kirk. Also, they had Annie maria's name as Annie maria(h) with an H. anyways, I found her death records and sent away for a copy. They have her passing August 20th, 1909 at Westley Brook Cottages Warwick Road Acocks Green Yardley R.D. She is listed as 28 years old, the wife of Alfred Kirk an engine fitter (journeyman). Alfred Kirk was in attendance. This paperwork was registered August 24th, 1909. The registration District was Solihull, in the Counties of Warwick and Worcester. The only picture I know existing is a pic of her with a pearl necklace and some type of pin or pendant. She looks older than 28, but I would imagine under the conditions, and I think she was working as a nurse, she was probably aged pretty quickly. Going back to Pierce, do you see a few census entries where they are either referring to young Pierce as William, or he actually had a brother named William, but he seems to either die quickly, or it as Pierce, but referred to him as William, but I agree with you, at least after so many years, they do refer to him as Pierce pretty consistently, so another item I have been working on. It of course is possible there was a brother William and I am way off! Well, I have also contacted a cousin who lives in Ohio and she has apparently a lot of old family pics of the Kirk and Jones side, I told her specifically I was looking for those already mentioned but also Grace Ellen just in case for Mull. Hope this info was somewhat helpful and not sure how you guys were coming on your search for Mull but if you could send me the latest info on her dates, and possible husband etc I will go through the family tree on my end and see if I can't find this lady. let me know. Thanks guys! Chad Kirk
-
I have been trying to solve a few of the queries on Pierce Jones. I found a tree on Ancestry which has details of his birth certificate entries. The transcript reads that he was born 3 November 1850, abode: Tan Wal Eglwys Rhos, father's name was John Jones, occupation labourer, mother's name was Elizabeth Jones, formerly Williams. Abode at time of birth was Tan Wal.
There is also a copy of the marriage certificate as follows: 1 October 1874, Sion Chapel, Conwy. Pierce Jones, Bachelor, Plasterer, age 23, of Ochre y Penrhyn, Eglwys Rhos, father John Jones, Labourer. Jane Anne Williams, Spinster, age 24, Domestic Servant, of Mostyn Crescent, Llandudno, father John Williams, occupation Labourer. Witnesses were: William Jones and Mary McManus. Both Pierce Jones and Jane Williams made their mark on the certificate.
Pierce's death certificate is also shown and this reads: Pierce Jones age 71, cause of death (1) Bronchial Plasterer; (2) Pneumonia. Present at death: John Jones of 25 King's Road, Llandudno. This is as shown but the entry looks strange in view of the first cause of death given.
Pierce had a brother, William Jones born c1853. He is with John Jones and family on the 1861 census and this shows he was born Eglwys Rhos. The family are living at Tan y Wal. William Jones is living as a Lodger with Pierce Jones and family in the 1881 census. He is shown as a Tailor by occupation. They are living at "Cottage back of Parade Hotel".
I don't think Pierce married twice and cannot find any evidence for this. I suspect that someone may have an incorrect tree on Ancestry as this is the only source which shows he married twice.
Helig.
-
Certain things I've found match in with Helig's findings and I'm inclined to agree with what he has said about Pierce only marrying once.
Pierce did have a son also called Pierce so could this have caused the confusion?
I've only a couple of things to add to Helig's posting and it's only to add clarification in case names appear different in Census and other records:-
Ochre Y Penrhyn is just the Welsh name for Penrhynside so Pierce was born in Tan Y Wal, Penrhynside which was then in the Parish of Eglwysrhos
In the 1861 Census Pirce was living at "Cottage back of Parade Hotel" and the street where the cottage was is called Vadre Lane.
-
Helig, just another add on to what you have found about Jane Anne Williams. Mostyn Crescent is a block of hotels on the sea front in Llandudno so Jane must have been living and working in one of those hotels when she got married.
-
Hey there. I have to admit it, I did find some of the info of a 2nd marriage via another person's tree, and upon really going through each census see they had mixed 2 different families! Going census by census, I did see where he had a brother William, which throws another wrench into things as at least the one picture does say William "tidi" Jones. Possibly this picture came from one of the cousins and their "tidi" was Pierce's brother William? I do have some pictures of what is labeled as Annie Maria's father, so I am curious if this gentleman looks like your Pierce or not. The odd thing is how much the pic labeled as Annie Maria's father, and William "tidi" look like the same gentlemen, but perhaps the brothers just look a lot alike right!!?? Any luck on those pictures of Pierce on that end, I have been trying to upload mine to the site but keep getting told the file is too large etc.. If you would like, send me your email address and I wil send them directly to you. Mine is kirk18@cox.net. I would be happy to send all I have so you can take a look. I have birth certificates/death certs for some, all of which I will send. Let me know, and thanks for the help!! Chad
-
Chad, I was reading your original posting and you mentioned searching for the grave of Annie Maria in that posting. In the Conwy Archives they have Burial Indexes for most Cemeteries in Conwy County. These indexes list all the graves with headstones in the Church cemeteries and also the inscriptions on them.
The people are listed alphabetically in the index as are the addresses of the deceased and the location of the graves are listed too.
If they are in the book then they are very easy to find but as far as I'm aware they are not online.
-
Hugo, re the burial of Annie Maria, she died in 1909 in Acock's Green which is in Solihull Registration District. I think a post on Roots Chat might be worthwhile as this area is outside the scope of this forum. See ckirkph's post of 7 December for full details.
Helig.
-
Thanks Helig for pointing that out, it's probable that she was buried in Solihull but I have come across instances where the person has been buried in the Parish where they were born.
In any case I'll have a look in the Conwy Archives Burial Indexes. Kirk is not a Welsh name and isn't common either so it'll only take me a minute to find that out.
I need to look in the Burial Indexes anyway so it's not putting me to any trouble.
-
Hey, I really appreciate everybody's help along the way. I have searched several parish records etc but like you said not too many available on line. It would be a great help of you do get the chance to look. I am trying to find out now more about what happened to Alfred after Annie Maria died, Apparently he remarried pretty quickly after the boys were sent to Halifax. Seems sorta wrong these days, but not uncommon then, but I think it would be interesting to meet that whole side of the family that we never knew. I meant to as Mull too, if he remembered his gram ever mentioning her siblings, specifically Annie Maria? She must of had it pretty rough losing so many siblings, I know that was more common then, but living in such close quarters they must have been pretty close. Chad
-
Chad, I've just copied what I've found today for your info but could find no trace in the Burial Indexes here for Annie Marie Kirk
I went to the Conwy Archives today and had a look through a number of Burial indexes and found the graves for Pierce & Jane Jones and also for his father John and Elizabeth his wife. I found them in the graveyard of Capel Einion which is the Baptist Cemetery in Ffordd Wiga Glanwydden. I have got the locations of the graves in the Cemetery but I won't go there to take any photos until I get my protective clothes on as it's the worst Cemetery I've ever seen, it's like a jungle! However now that I've seen part of Llandegfan Cemetery I'd describe that as the worst.
Anyway this is the information I have found from the Burial Indexes;-
Plot A 030 and written in English
In loving memory of Jane Jones, the beloved daughter of Pierce and Jane Jones Tan Y Wal who died Sept 7th 1881 aged 14 months
Also
Joseph Wm Jones who died September 29th 1889 aged 13 months
Also
Jane Ann Jones beloved wife of the said Pierce Jones who died October 6th 1915 aged 66 years
They are not dead but only ..... rest
Also
Pierce Jones died April 23rd 1922 aged 71 years at rest
Further into the Cemetery at Grave A 061 is the grave for Pierce's parents John and Elizabeth and their inscription is in Welsh and the translation into English is :-
In memory of John Jones Tan Y Wal Penrhynside who died September 24th 1861 aged 50 years
Also
Elizabeth Jones his wife who died June 27th 1895 aged 85 years
I then had a look at the Baptism records for Llangystennin but there were 2 John Jones Baptised in 1817 and one in 1816 so I was not able to establish exactly your relative. A date of birth may be needed in this case
-
Hey there! Wow! I can not thank you enough for all your efforts! Be careful in that cemetery please, if you do make it, sad it has apparently gotten so overgrown. I will look into that birthdate you mentioned, again thanks so much. I wonder then if Annie Marie was buried in Solihull then, I really did think she might have ended up with her folks/ siblings having died so young (28) but perhaps financial reasons made it impossible to move her too far. I will keep checking on things too. Interestingly, yesterday 12-12-2016 was 116 years to the date that Alfred Kirk and Annie Maria were married, I thought about them all day long. I was on the telephone with another relative whom I found only through Ancestry research whose father was one of Annie Maria's sons, John Reginald Archibald Kirk. I was telling him about Mull, and that his gram was Grace Ellen, we had the most interesting talk. Oh how we wish we would have had the opportunity to ask these folks some questions before they were gone! Dale Kirk, the gentlemen I was speaking of was also going to try to gather more info on his aunt Grace Ellen. The problem is when these boys came here, they were rather upset with their father (Alfred). I am not sure if Alfred willingly gave them up, or if the church might have intervened and had them sent to Halifax, but they ended up in I believe one of the Middlemore Homes in Birmingham. There did seem to be animosity. They lost all communication with him, therefore you have Dale here whose father knew the Jones family early on, but then no communication in adult life. People can be so fickle. Anyhow, thanks SO much again for your help. If there are any places you think I should try to email or contact however please just send me the names, I feel terrible having you blazing trails through jungle like cemeteries on my account! I have started to post some pics that you guys may have seen already, but I was able to post them directly to this blogs website so Mull, take a look and I will keep sending them as I can. They are under gallery pics of people. Chad
-
Just to see if I can scan and add photos.
Top photo is taken in 1946 left Grace Ellen Jones (Nain) liitle Mull and Uncle Hugh Hughes, Cobbler in porch of Tan y Wal
Bottom photo Tan y Wal 1946
-
Nice photos Mull and it's good to be able to put a face to the names we have heard on here.
-
Chad, all being well I'm going to go to the Cemetery on Friday to take some photos for you and Mull. I have got a plan of the graveyard and have been inside the jungle a few times so I'll be well prepared.
As regards your G G Grandfather I was unable to identify him from the Baptism records but I've got another idea how to trace him.
It all depends on whether the Archives have the particular Church records but if they have the Marriage Register then that will help to confirm he is your relative.
There were 3 potential John Jones' in the Baptism record and one of those is an ancestor of someone else on the forum but I'll wait until I find out more before saying anything else.
The Archives will be closed from 22nd Dec 2016 until 3rd Jan 2017 so I'll have to see what I can do before then
-
Yesterday I enjoyed a delicious lunch in the Queens Hotel in Glanwydden and today I was back in the village but having a look around the graveyard! I passed the Queens Head again and had a look at Capel Ainon which is the old Welsh Bapist Chapel that the Jones family must have attended when they were living in Penrhynside. Sadly the building has been closed for many years and is in a serious state of decline.
Anyway I parked my car in the lane and walked up to the Cemetery, there are two parts to it, the old and the new but sadly the old part is in a serious mess and the last real clean up there was over 30 years ago.
I found Pierce and Jane's grave quite easily even though it was covered in Ivy and the headstone looked like it was made of a buff coloured sandstone. The inscription was difficult to read but thankfully years ago some group made a detailed note of what was written on all the headstones. I tried to clear the headstone as best as I could and the photo shows what it looks like now.
John and Elizabeth's grave wasn't too far away and as I had the plan of the graves I also knew where to look for it. Their headstone was in the more traditional Welsh slate and the inscription on it was very clear. A tree had grown by the headstone and although I tidied up the grave I couldn't remove the stump but I've taken a close up of the headstone so that you know that it is that of your relative.
One good thing I saw was that someone had started to clear the Cemetery and it did look better than when I was last there.
I've included a photo of the new part of the Cemetery and Penrhynside is in the background, probably about 2 miles away.
-
Glanwydden Cemetery
-
Hi Chad,
Going to try and send you sme photos.
Hope this works, like a journey to the moon for me.
Photo 1 . Pierce jones, Brookes street , Llandudno.
Photo 2. Jane Jones, Brookes Street, Llandudno. Baby Grace Ellen ?
Hope this goes OK.
-
More photos,
Old lady, unknown
Jane Jones, Brookes Street
-
More photos,
Pierce Jones with his boat.
Other photo 2 men with the boat endorsed last one he had taken.
Wonder if they were accomplished boatmen. Remember Uncle Dick,( Richard Benjamin Jones) telling me they used to go fishing off the West Constable Bank when he was a young boy.
Remember in early 1950s there used to be a chap selling fish off a hand cart corner off Mostyn Street/Lloyd Street he had caught off the bay.
Grace Ellen Jones.
-
Photo 1. Taken by one of her patients, Bessie ?
Photo 2. Left to right Richard Benjamin,Jane (Richards wife), Margret Myfanwy, Grace Ellen (nain), Gwennie, John Jones jnr (taid).
-
Photo of Rechard Benjamin ( Uncle Dick ).
Photo 22 October 1938. My mother, Margret Myfanwny Jones given away by Uncle Dick married Harry Hadkinson Davies .
Tabernacl Baptist Church, Llandudno.
-
Thats all for now folks. Golden Wedding of Richard & Jane early 1960s.
Chad, Hope you have found it ineresting.
Mull
-
Hey there!!
I have to say that was awesome!! So glad to see these people and to confirm that our Pierce is definitely the same guy! I actually have the 1st pic you sent me of Pierce sitting sorta poised, I have a different version of him in the boat, which I will post to the site soon, but he is for sure the SAME! Geez, it is like an early Christmas over on this side of the water. Thanks also to all the pics of the cemetery that were sent, It is really helpful to be able to reference those stones for information. I am looking forward to attaching these folks to there rightful places on the tree and keep searching for details. I have a few different pics of Richard (Dick) delivering mail etc, he looks like he would have been a nice guy, I would have loved to have met him and his wife! You guys have been so helpful with this search, I am still trying to get up with some of our other distant family members to collect as much info and especially pics as possible. I wonder, did you get a chance to look at any of the pics I posted to the gallery of this blog? Will continue to post more when possible. Was that an old pic of Tan Y Wal connected to the other homes? Thanks again, will be in touch again soon, working this weekend, but off Monday and Tuesday! Thanks guys!! Chad
-
Hey, I have to say, I looked through the pics you sent again! I so much enjoy them. so John Jones Jr was Grace Ellen's husband right. She married a Jones am I correct? Love the picture of your mother too. who was Gwennie? Chad. Also, the cobbler, where did he fall in tree?
-
More photos,
Pierce Jones with his boat.
Other photo 2 men with the boat endorsed last one he had taken.
Wonder if they were accomplished boatmen. Remember Uncle Dick,( Richard Benjamin Jones) telling me they used to go fishing off the West Constable Bank when he was a young boy.
Remember in early 1950s there used to be a chap selling fish off a hand cart corner off Mostyn Street/Lloyd Street he had caught off the bay.
Grace Ellen Jones.
Mull, the man you may be thinking of could have been Ted ( Yr Ogof) Jones, see attached link. So many Jones,' could he be linked to your family?
Ted was a lovely guy and would probably have known Richard and the family because of the connection to the sea
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_qpaOxfvQAhVrDsAKHQ8KCmMQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistorypoints.org%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dted-yr-ogof-memorial&usg=AFQjCNHaOrbO1Bzx0LKJ4aExBD-fAwz6Gg (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi_qpaOxfvQAhVrDsAKHQ8KCmMQFggaMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistorypoints.org%2Findex.php%3Fpage%3Dted-yr-ogof-memorial&usg=AFQjCNHaOrbO1Bzx0LKJ4aExBD-fAwz6Gg)
-
Pleased you are enjoying this Chad.
Gwennie was Gwyneth Jones, Grace Ellens second daughter.
Hugh Hughes, Cobbler, lived Tan Y Wal ,Penrhynside. Still to find more about him. Wonder if there is an Anglesey connection ?
Hugo. Never realised it was him.Seen his memorial on the prom many times.Recall being with my Uncle Dick on occasions when he stopped to chat with him. More Jones as relations, are you being serious ?
-
Hugo. Never realised it was him.Seen his memorial on the prom many times.Recall being with my Uncle Dick on occasions when he stopped to chat with him. More Jones as relations, are you being serious ?
Isaac and Miriam Jones reared 15 children in the Gogarth Cave, now Ted Yr Ogof was their great grandson and Ted was one of 12 siblings born to his parents Jac Yr Ogof and Mary Jones so there is a possibility but I don't know the answer.
It seems that the Rabbits were not the only ones breeding quickly on the Great Orme. ;D
-
Well considering how quickly you guys do research this is probably old news, but I was thinking about Hugh Hughes from the pics you sent. I believe that Pierce Jones' sister Ann Jones married Richard Hughes, and one of their kids was Hugh. so that would have made Hugh, Grace Ellen's uncle I believe. Cool pics again, thanks. Hope it wasn't all completely redundant information guys! ! I was able to finally print out pics of Grace Ellen, Percy, Bessie, Mary Jane, and Annie Maria and it is crazy how much they all looked alike!! Trying to figure out if the unidentified girl is a nurse, or a maid?
-
Nope, Ann would have been Grace Ellen's aunt, Hugh then a cousin right!!?? That's what I get for messing with this stuff too late at night!! Chad
-
I am trying to absorb where we are up to with this, having been busy for a while recently. One thing that has struck me is that the inscriptions on the graves of John and Elizabeth Jones show they were born c1810. John died in 1861, age 50, so he was born c1810. Elizabeth died in 1895, age 85, so she was also born c1810.
The census we have shows ages which don't agree with these dates, so which ones are right? The grave inscriptions would be presumed to be factual, so what has happened on the census returns?
I have found them on the 1861 census, this is for sure as they are living in Tan y Wal. This would have been taken shortly before John Jones died. The household is as follows:
John Jones, Head, age 47, Stone Mason, married, born Eglwys Rhos
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 49, born Caerhun.
Ann Jones, daughter, unmarried, age 15, born Eglwys Rhos
William Jones, son, age 8, born Eglwys Rhos.
John Jones, son, age 4, born Eglwys Rhos.
I found Elizabeth Jones and family in the 1871, still living at Tan y Wal. This shows:
Elizabeth Jones, Head, widow, age 59, Labourer's widow, born Caerhun.
Pierce Jones, son, unmarried, age 20, Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos.
John Jones, son, age 13, born Eglwys Rhos
Anne Jones, age 24, daughter, Dressmaker, born Eglwys Rhos.
In the 1881 census, Elizabeth Jones is living in Tan y Wal and the household is as follows:
Elizabeth Jones, Head, widow, age 68, Quarryman's widow (crossed out), born Caerhun.
Richard Hughes, son in law, married, age 34, Journeyman Stonemason, born Gyffin.
Anne Hughes, daughter, age 35, born Eglwys Rhos.
John Hughes, grandson, age 4, born Eglwys Rhos.
Hugh Hughes, grandson, age 2, born Eglwys Rhos.
The 1891 census shows Elizabeth Jones living in the household of Richard Hughes, they are in Tan y Wal. The household is as follows:
Richard Hughes, Head, married, age 44, Stone Mason, born Gyffin.
Ann Hughes, wife, age 44, Cook (crossed out)born Eglwys Rhos.
John Hughes, son, age 13, scholar, born Eglwys Rhos.
Hugh Hughes, son, age 11, scholar, born Eglwys Rhos.
Elizabeth Anne Jones, Mother in Law, widow, age 79, Knitting Hose, born Caerhun.
The ages vary a bit but the 1861 census gives a year of birth for John Jones as c1814. For Elizabeth Jones it is c1812. Elizabeth's age in subsequent census returns indicate a year of birth as c1812-13.
I wonder if Hugo could look in the archives to see if he can find their baptisms in these years?
There is a Family Tree on Ancestry which has this line and it shows John Jones born 1814, Llangystenin, father Evan Jones. There are some details on this which are incorrect so it cannot be relied on as being accurate.
I know Mull wanted to know how Hugh Hughes fitted in with his family. The census details indicate that Hugh Hughes was a nephew of Pierce Jones. Pierce's sister Anne married Richard Hughes and Hugh was their son. Hugh was born 1879.
I hope this fits another piece of the jigsaw into place but we are still seeking the years and birth and baptisms for John and Elizabeth Jones, nee Williams.
Helig.
-
Just an update. There is a baptism for Richard Hughes in Gyffin on 4 February 1847, son of John and Margaret Hughes.
In the 1871 census this family is living at Graig Llwyd, Eglwys Rhos.
John Hughes, Head, married, age 54, Agricultural Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos
Margaret Hughes, wife, age 60 born Amlwch, Anglesey.
Richard Hughes, son, unmarried, age 24, Ag Lab, born Eglwys Rhos
Hugh Hughes, son, age 21, unmarried, born Eglwys Rhos. Note states: Idiot.
Catherine Hughes, daughter, age 14, born Eglwys Rhos.
Helig
-
I'm a bit puzzled by certain dates and also places. I've found a site where I can search the Census records for free but I've only been able to find them because I know the various ways that the towns etc were spelt in the old days.
I've got the 1851 Census up and it shows the following info:-
Tan y Wal John Jones Head age 34 Stone Mason born Llangystennin
Elizabeth " wife " " Llanbedr
Anne " dau " 4 " Llanrhos
Joseph " son " 2 " "
Pierce " son " 6 months " "
Now that would mean that he was born C 1817 and that is what I based my search for the marriage on but that disagrees with the burial inscription and all the other Census records. I'm going to have to go back to the Archives to recheck everything but won't be able to do so until some time in January 2017.
In answer to your question about "I wonder if Hugo could look in the archives to see if he can find their baptisms in these years?" I'll gladly do it but John's will be in Llangystennin and I've already found numerous John Jones' but the DOB is crucial because there were so many.
Now you have also mentioned this "There is a Family Tree on Ancestry which has this line and it shows John Jones born 1814, Llangystenin, father Evan Jones. There are some details on this which are incorrect so it cannot be relied on as being accurate."
I have posted a copy of that marriage on Mull's postings but am not entirely convinced that this is the relation that we are looking for.
It won't be easy to find because of so many John Jones' living in Llangystennin and being born around the same time, it's not impossible because the records are in the Conwy Archives but it will be time consuming because we need to be certain that we have the right person.
-
Thank you for this information, Hugo. It will be impossible to obtain a date of birth for John Jones. The baptism records are all we have to go on back then. This often causes problems in Welsh genealogy as there are so few surnames and christian names tend to be relatively few as well. In my case I have an ancestor, Mary Williams, b1790, Ysceifiog. When I looked through the parish registers of Ysceifiog for that year, there were three girls baptised by the name of Mary Williams, there is no way of knowing which one was my relative.
I have looked for Richard Hughes in the 1911 census and he is living in Tan y Wal with his wife, Anne. At the time his occupation was Railway Outside Luggage Porter. They have no other family with them.
Richard Hughes is in Tan y Wal in the 1901 census, along with Anne, his wife, and their son, Hugh Hughes. Richard's occupation is Bricklayer and Hugh Hughes is a Shoemaker and seller.
I shall do some more research on Hugh Hughes again. At the moment he looks to be living at Tan Y Wal in the 1911 census, married to Elizabeth and a Boot repairer. This is shown as a separate household from his parents. It shows they have been married for 5 years and had one child which died. Elizabeth was born in Abergele. I will do more on this again.
I wonder whether they worked as Stonemasons in the quarries on the Little Orme? If my memory serves me right, I think there was a quarry on Nant y Gamar at one time.
Could they very elderly lady in the photograph be Elizabeth Jones? I say this because she lived to a good age and whoever is in the photo looks to be a possible fit. I am not sure if there are any other contenders.
Helig.
-
If you look up Tan y Wal in the Penrhynside book it shows Hugh Hughes as being a Railway carrier. I take it this would be picking up and delivering items around Llandudno.
The book says Hugh had a pony and cart that he kept at Tan Y Wal. Did he carry on after Richard his father gave it up ?
-
That's a lot of really good info you have been able to get Helig, you must have been very busy on the computer. It's going to be very hard to find the birth details for John Jones but it may not be impossible.
I've seen such records made in a note book but most are in proper registers. Sometimes the Census records are misleading especially the one for 1841 as peoples ages are rounded down to the nearest 5 years for some reason.
A 24 year would have their age shown as 20 and like wise a 29 year old would be shown as 25 that's quite strange.
I think that John may have been born C1811 but when I check any records I look at them 10 years either side just in case. There was a large quarry in Nant Y Gamar as well as Penrhyn Bay and Llangystennin also had a big quarry there too.
-
Just a couple of observations on the railway side.
Until the early 1970s, the railway operators provided a "Passengers' Luggage in Advance" service. This meant that your luggage could be sent ahead and delivered directly to the hotel or guest house in which you were staying to await your arrival. Similarly luggage could be collected for the return journey. As can be imagined, this was a significantly used facility for Llandudno to the extent that a separate "PLA" shed was built adjoining the station in order to store the various items. All the luggage was placed therein and delivered locally by railway carriers (or carters as they were also known). The outside porters were self-employed but licensed by the railway to "tout" for work meeting trains and carrying passengers' luggage usually with a handcart. There were also "Town Porters" licensed by the Council to act as general carriers within the town. The Llandudno UDC had a set of Bye-Laws regulating the activities of the outside porters and prescribing a schedule of charges depending on the distance from the station to particular streets. The outside porters were not in railway uniform but displayed an official, brass armlet displaying their individual number.
-
I have been trying to find John Jones in the 1841 census. There look to be two possibilities for him. The first is in Llandudno, living on the lower slopes of the Gt Orme, near the King's Head. The house name is Green Hill. The whole page is difficult to read as this census was written in pencil.
It has: John Jones, age 30, Ag Lab, born in the same county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 25, born in same county.
Mary Jones, age 1, born in same county.
The second is in the household of Thomas Jones in Eglwys Rhos. This shows:
Tyn fr On (not sure about that)
Thomas Jones, age 60, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Mary Jones, age 60, not born in same county.
John Jones, age 30, Ag Lab, bon in same county.
Mary Jones, age 40, not born in same county.
Elizabeth Jones age 17, born in same county.
Thomas Jones, age 7, born in same county.
Robert Jones age 3, born in same county.
David Thomas, age 10, born in same county.
There is another possible for him in Caerhun, I think Elizabeth came from there. This John Jones is married to Elizabeth as well.
I am doubtful about the marriage in 1844 being the right one for him. I would have expected him to have married before that. Also, if his father was named Evan, it would have been usual to name a son of his after his father. In general, the naming pattern was first son after the paternal grandfather, first daughter after the paternal grandmother.
I then found an entry in Eglwys Rhos as follows:
Abode: Pen y Park, John Jones, age 65, Miner, born in same county.
Anne Jones, age 60, born in same county.
John Jones age 25, Mason, born in same county.
William Jones, age 20, Miner, born in same county.
We know that John Jones and Elizabeth had children named John and Anne. The occupation of Mason fits as well.
To be continued...
Helig
-
Just an observation Helig, the Census counts were usually done in the very last days of March but sometimes in the first few days of April so the age of a person cannot accurately be determined.
In the cases of John and Elizabeth most of the Census records that you have found show that John is the younger of the two.
In the 1841 Census you have now shown it has shown John as aged 30 and Elizabeth as 25 but as I pointed out for that year only, the age was rounded down to the nearest 5 years. Therefore John was in the age group of 30-34 and Elizabeth was in the age group of 25 -29.
John could have been 30 and Elizabeth 29 as their ages were very close, however Elizabeth was the older one so it's possible that the Jones' living at Greenhill were not the ones we are looking for.
It's really hard with so many people called John Jones and so many red herrings. In January I'll call again at the Archives and go through the records again and like you I am not convinced about the marriage certificate for 1844.
-
What makes it difficult to trace John Jones is that we don't actually have an address for him other than the Parish address of Llangystennin.
Now Llangystennin Parish covered the villages of Llangystennin, Glanwydden, Mochdre, Bryn Pydew, Pabo and Marl (modern day Llandudno Junction)
I've found a number of John Jones' in that area and time frame but can't tell which one is the John we are looking for. A number of house names have come up for these Jones families that have also come up on a previous search for the Roberts family of Glanwydden.
This Roberts family had relatives that lived just below Tan Y Wal in Penrhynside and I know that JaneP has done a lot of research in the area we are looking at.
Hopefully if Jane reads this she may be able to help us solve the matter
-
I've just had a check of what we have found so far and the 1861 Census puts John Jones' age as 47 so this would mean that he was born C1814 and that year disagrees with every thing that we have found.
I had a look at Find my Past and put 1812 +/- 2 years and they do not show all the Baptisms for Llangystennin in that period so I'm not going to search on line any more but will look at the Church's records and make a list of each entry for a John Jones
-
This may be less than helpful Hugo. My maternal Gt grandfather was John Jones, Dob 1837 in Llanfair Caereinion. He married Ann Jones Dob 1835 in Llanwyddellan. They moved to Welshpool and worked in various Inns in menial jobs. They had most of their children in Welshpool, including my Nain, Rose Stallard (nee Jones) Dob 1857. John Jones also eventually had horse drawn transport and latterly would spend the summer season in Llandudno (how he got around the many tolls I don't know) working as a taxi. Sometime between 1860 and 1870 Ann got suspicious about the amount of money John was spending on booze so she upped sticks with all her many children and emigrated to Llandudno (via Liverpool I understand, getting to Llandudno by boat and being carried ashore). The family were in grinding poverty and they managed to get a home in one of Back Madoc Street's yards. Ann died about 1895 and John (who, I'm told, slept with his horse) died around 1903 and is buried in the fold section of St Tudno's. Rose married Frederick Stallard - apparently they met while working in the Birmingham Arms - and they founded the many generations of Stallards scattered throughout the town. The Jones connections are numerous too, including the Yr'Ogos. If this is of any interest at all I do have many more details, including names. ZXZ $walesflag$
-
Yes, the 1841 census entries for John Jones are a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack. Un less there is a way of identifying him for sure, it amounts to guess work.
I did wonder if their marriage might have been elsewhere as Elizabeth is shown as born Caerhun in most census returns. In one it shows she was born Llanbedr. It was the custom to marry in the bride's parish. So, could their marriage have been in one of those parishes? I would favour Caerhun as that is shown as her place of birth in most of the census returns.
Helig.
-
Helig, Llanbedr or Llanbedr Y Cennin to give the village it's full name was in the Parish of Caerhun which was in Caernarvonshire. The Birth/Baptism/Marriage records are in the Caerhun Registers which are in the Conwy Archives.
I've made a list of all the Census records that have been found and I make it that John was born about 1811 and Elizabeth was born about 1812. That narrows it down a bit but you found something in the 1891 Census that was very interesting and could be the breakthrough that we need.
In the 1891 Census aged 79 the name Elizabeth Anne Jones is recorded and this was the first indication that Elizabeth also had a middle name, That information could be crucial for when I look at the Caerhun Registers and may quicken the search for the couple.
I'll search for her records first and then look at the Llangystennin Parish Registers and will post my findings on here
-
Hi Mike, it was good to hear from you and hope that you had a good Christmas over there in Norfolk. I've followed all your posts on the Jones,Stallard/Cox with a lot of interest and you realise how lucky our generation is compared to the hardships that our ancestors went through.
I often wished that I had asked my parents more about our family as I now have loads of photos of people that I can't put a name to it's a shame really.
As regards this topic I am only doing the research of the direct line of Mull and also Chad which takes them back to about 1811 then they may want to expand the search to include other family members.
The Jones (Yr Ogof) story is fascinating and I'm surprised that no one has made a family tree to include everyone descended from Isaac and Miriam. In fact I didn't realise that Ted Yr Ogof was their G Grandson and with so many descendants I bet most of the Jones in the Llandudno area could be related in someway but I'll leave that to others to work out.
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda Mike $walesflag$
-
The details we have about the children of John Jones and Elizabeth show they had the following:
(1851 census) Anne, age 4, born Llanrhos
Joseph, age 2, born Llanrhos
Pierce, age 6 months, born Llanrhos.
(1861 census) William, age 8, born Eglwys Rhos
John, age 4, born Eglwys Rhos.
That gives their years of birth as follows:
Anne c1847
Joseph, c1849
Pierce 1850 (known as a fact)
William c1853
John, c1857.
I wonder whether it is possible to find their baptisms to see if these show some useful information, such as where they lived at the time?
I have done a place search of the 1841 census for Eglwys Rhos but couldn't find Tan y Wal. do we know when it was built?
The entry I listed before for John Jones, age 25, Mason, living in Pen y Park looks as though it may be interesting. On the previous page, living in Pen y B--rth (?) there is a family as follows:
Evan Jones, age 60, Ag Lab, born in same county.
William Jones, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Elinor Jones, age 35, not born in same county
William Jones, age 3, born in same county.
Anne Jones, age 1, born in same county.
Find my Past has transcribed this house, or street name as Pen y Park.
John Jones living in Pen y Park is the fourth house along from Evan Jones. It may not be significant but the house before that of Evan Jones is shown as Graig Llwyd and I am sure I have come across that before.
It occurs to me that the easiest way of determining the details for the wife of John Jones would be to obtain the birth certificate of Pierce Jones. It is in Conwy Registration District, volume 27, page 335. It was registered in the December quarter of 1850. North Wales BMD shows that it is held in Conwy County Borough (Llandudno) reference Creuddyn/05/48.
Helig.
-
Helig, Tan Y Wal is a cottage of 17th century origins so it will be in the 1841 Census somewhere. It's located in Bryn Gwynt Lane in Penrhynside and was in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.
A little higher up the lane is a single storey cottage called Graig Llwyd. I don't know where Pen Y Park is but I've seen Pen Y Buarth when I've been out walking so they should also be in Penrhynside.
Now the Baptism records may show some info but we do know that they were born when the were living at Tan Y Wal and that is in the Parish of Eglwysrhos (Llanrhos)
John and Elizabeth's daughter Anne was born about 1846 but had they had any children prior to that? In any event that marriage certificate I found in 1844 is still a possibility although we are both not entirely convinced that they are Mull's relatives. John Jones lived somewhere in the Parish of Llangystennin which was the adjoining Parish to Eglwysrhos.
What I'm going to concentrate on is Elizabeth Anne who was born in Llanbedr Y Cennin and was born about 1812. I'll look at the Birth/ Baptism/ Marriage register in the Archives and just hope that something turns up there. I've got a lot on this coming week so I don't know when I can go to the Archives though.
-
Hugo says.... I've got a lot on this coming week so I don't know when I can go to the Archives though.
Answer....
Presumably you will be correcting the headlights on your car, ready for our next outing!
I agree with Tellytuby, we could have some fun discussing your problems Hugo, but it would be too dangerous to cast the first stone , says the ex gra...a kid in sunny Fv!
-
Presumably you will be correcting the headlights on your car, ready for our next outing!
I went out last night and it seemed like the headlights had sorted themselves out but then I realised that there was only me in the car! ;D
-
Hugo, thank you for the information on Tan y Wal etc. The place name is Pen y Buarth, the writing is faint and the letters u and a are difficult to read. I did look carefully at the house and street names but Tan y Wal eluded me. I will try again next week. Could it have been called something else at one time? I recognised some of the names of other places. It isn't too hard to search the 1841 census for Eglwys Rhos parish as there are only 2 districts and 8 pages in each.
It occurred to me that Anne might not the their first born child. John Jones would have been c32 years of age in 1846. It isn't impossible but if the 1844 marriage is right, it would be usual for them to have a child before 1846.
In the past I am sure I have seen entries for the Caerhun parish registers on Freereg but cannot get anything up for these now. I seem to think the parish registers for Llangystennin were on there too. I don't have much success with their new site.
Helig
-
Helig, you've been a wizard on the computer finding out so much information about the family, I wouldn't know where to start on some of the sites. I'm fortunate in that I have lived in this area all my life and that I have some knowledge of the Welsh language, also the Archives where they have many original records is very near to where I live.
Years ago Welsh houses had names that described the property or where it was located and in this instance Tan Y Wal ( under the wall) describes the location of the property. Names of houses were not changed like they are now and I think that Tan Y Wal must have been the original name.
Over the years street names have changed but we don't need to worry about that in this case as Penrhynside was only a very small community
I'll look at the Caerhun Registers asap and I'm hoping that the name Elizabeth Anne will be easier to find that of John Jones ;D
I hope that you have a good Hogmanay up there and Blwyddyn Newydd Dda too. $walesflag$
-
Thank you again to those of you who have come up with so much information.
In my case I will be glad to see the back of 2016.
Bliadhna Mhath Ur for 2017.
-
Make sure that you don't get too legless with the Hogmany tonight as that leg is still on the mend. Good health and best wishes for 2017 Mull
-
Hey guys, hope 2017 has treated you all well so far! I was looking back at some of your conversation and it is funny, because I too had a lot of trouble with John Jones year of birth. I did find some info that made me think they (John and Elizabeth Jones (Williams )) had a son 1st named John. I think he might have married a Catherine and an Ann. This 1st son John I found was born 1832.Then Mary Jones 1843, Ellen Jones 1845, Thomas Jones 1845, Ann Jones (Hughes) 1847, David Jones 1849, Joseph Jones 1850, Pierce Jones 1850, William Jones 1853, John Jones 1858. I found a birth certificate for Pierce Jones, which proved me wrong that possibly he wasn't originally named Pierce, but he was. Born November 3rd, 1850 at Tan Wal. Name Pierce, father's name John Jones, mother Elizabeth Jones formerly Williams. He was registered November 22nd, 1850. I did find a marriage record for a John Jones and Elizabeth Williams. Married May 11th 1838. Married at St David's church in the parish of Liverpool county of Lancaster. John's father's name is listed as Peter Jones, Elizabeth's father listed as William Williams. Those to witness was Robert Roberts and Margaret Jones. Let me know your thoughts! Chad
-
If you look at family records from those old days you sometimes notice that they had two sons or daughters with the same name which does sound strange.
However this is usually because the first named child has died but I've got doubts that the first John you found b 1832 is your relative.
My reason for thinking this is:-
John and Elizabeth didn't get married until 1838 and although not impossible that was very unusual in those days.
Secondly there is an unexplained age gap for the children from 1832 to 1843
Your search has thrown up a lot of info that I can follow in our local Archives, one of which is why the children from 1845 and back were not shown in the 1851 Census.
Perhaps they had died as young children and if they had died at Tan Y Wal then they may also be buried at the Glanwydden Cemetery. All being well I'm hoping to go to the Archives on Thursday and we'll see what turns up.
-
Hmm, I see what you mean. I had wondered if they had come from a previous marriage of hers. Ahh, the joys of on line searching!! Will keep looking! Chad
-
I did go to the Archives as promised but did not find anything there to help in the search for John and Elizabeth Jones' origins.
I first looked at the Burial Index for Capel Ainon and looked through the entire book but there were no graves for the Jones family of Tan Y Wal other than the two graves that we already know about. If those children Mary, Thomas and Ellen died before the 1851 Census then they may have been buried elsewhere.
The Baptism/ Burial Register for Caerhun that I looked at covered from the early 1700's to 1812. In that Register there was no entry for an Elizabeth Anne but there were seven entries for an Elizabeth between 1810 and 1812 and there was definitely no entry for a William Williams as father of any of the seven Elizabeths that I have found and recorded in my notes. So no luck there.
I then looked at the Baptism Register for Llangwstennin where John Jones was born. I looked at the records for a Baptism of a John Jones between 1809 and 1812 and there were only two recorded in that period which is when John would have been born and Baptised
The first entry was:-
27th May 2010 John born to Richard Jones and Anne his wife but no address given.
The second was:-
23rd August 1812 John born to Richard Jones and Mary his wife. The address given looked like Gist
Due to a lack of time I did not look at any Marriage Registers so for now it's still a mystery
-
Hugo, thank you for your efforts and sorry you didn't make much progress with this. I have been laid up with an evil lurgy for over a week and just getting back on my feet now. I will try to do some more next week.
I did wonder whether John Jones may have been married twice but at the moment, there is no definite evidence to support this.
Helig.
-
My sympathy with the dreaded lurgy Helig, not very nice indeed. I've been lucky so far but Mrs H caught it over Christmas.
I haven't given up on finding them yet but it's time consuming and also frustrating when you don't find anything. I'll be back in the Archives sometime to look at a couple of things. I have access to the original records here which should make it easier but it's still hard to prove anything with such a common name.
Chad has found a record of a Marriage between John and Elizabeth in Liverpool in 1838 but I've now got serious doubts about that being the one we are looking for. That's only because there was no Peter Jones or William Williams mentioned in the Baptism records that I looked at but we can't discount it though just in case there are other Church records that I didn't see at the Archives.
-
Hugo, I can sympathise with the efforts and time you have put in with little benefit from it.
I am wondering if the places shown in the 1841 census are street names, rather than house names. The area we are searching is in District 2 of Eglwys Rhos. Page 3 has names as: Penrhyn .. Farm Yard, Graig Llwyd (which has 3 households), Pen y Buarth (two households), Pany y Ehill; Page 4 has Penyffordd, Pon y Belin, Pen y Gaer, Pen y Park, Gloddaeth Isa Farm Yard, Ty Llwyd, ---- y Graig, Ty Newydd.
I recognise Gloddaeth Isa but none of the rest. Do any of these names mean anything to you please? I lived in Penrhyn Bay in the 1960s and used to walk all over the area. I know down by Penrhyn Old Hall and Gloddaeth Woods, plus the Penrhynside area by that. I didn't take much notice of street names back then but know Penrhynside was developed on a largeish scale shortly after that era.
Are there any street, or trade, directories which might help us identify the places and people living there for that time period?
As far as the parish registers are concerned, I have wondered whether they may have been non conformist. This would complicate it as the registers of many of the non conformist chapels did not survive. There is a Genuki page on Llangystennin:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangwstennin (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llangwstennin)
It is impossible to be certain of entries on many of the online sites as the names are so common, the proverbial needle and haystack. My view is that this might only be solved by obtaining the birth certificate of Pierce Jones since this would show his mother's maiden name. Even then, it might not be easy to identify the marriage.
I trust Mrs H is recovering well now.
Best wishes,
Helig.
-
During 1800s there must have been many non conformists living in Penrhynside area.
It was known as the Holy City in the 1950s, 5 churches and 2 public houses.
Church of Wales/England was St Sannan, and if my memory is correct it was a tin building and Hugh Hughes was a member of the congregation.
There were 4 non conformist chapels of different denominations, Nain(Grace Ellen Jones) attended the chapel next door to the Cross Keys.
-
Mrs H is better now Helig and thanks for your concern. I'm going to the Archives this week and there are two Registers I need to look at but if I have no luck there either, then your suggestion of getting a birth certificate for Pierce Jones would be the best idea. However that would be up to Mull or Chad to work out as there is a charge for those forms.
As far as I am aware they did not have street names in those days and the names that you have supplied are all house names, some I know and some I don't. The only trouble is that some records just show the Parish address and Eglwysrhos has Penrhynside, Llanrhos, Tywyn, Deganwy, Llandudno and probably other places too, so the address could be anywhere in that Parish.
The ones you have named though all appear to be in the Penrhynside area.
I'll post my findings on here when I have had a look at the other Registers in the Archives
-
Hugo
Most if not all of the properties are mentioned in Ken Dibble's books on Penrhynside. Also I think I have mentioned before on TTF that the National Library of Scotland's website provides free access to Ordnance Survey Maps of GB free of charge. These cover late 19th Cent to the mid 1950s.
-
I think that someone has sent Mull copies of some of the pages from that book which is a great read for anyone interested in that area. Strangely though that Mr Roberts I spoke to who lives next door to Tyn Y Wal had never lived in the house that was mentioned in a book. I don't know if he meant Ken Dibble's book or the one by the other author.
That info about the O/S maps is interesting and there are also maps in British History on line
-
Hey, wondering what information off of a birth certificate for Pierce Jones are you looking for?
-
I have done everything I could think of to attach this darn birth certificate through my phone! It is an actual certified copy I found on someone elses tree on Ancestry. I had left the info on the blog before, maybe it will help. I will try to attach when I get home, unfortunately still at work selling drugs, legally. Chad
-
Penrhynside Books by Kenneth Dribble. Go back to March 21 2014 , Reply nos 6,7,8,9,10,14,17,21.
JOM from New Zealand kindly sent put photocopies of pages from Penrhynside Part 2 by Ken Dibble. If you go to the above reply nos you can view them there.
Hope this helps.
-
I have done everything I could think of to attach this darn birth certificate through my phone! It is an actual certified copy I found on someone elses tree on Ancestry. I had left the info on the blog before, maybe it will help. I will try to attach when I get home, unfortunately still at work selling drugs, legally. Chad
What we are looking for Chad is some conclusive evidence to link Elizabeth Anne to John Jones. What we know for certain is that Elizabeth was born in Llanbedr Y Cennin. John Jones was born somewhere in the Parish of Llangystennin.
If you have the Birth Certificate then we would like to know all the information on it such as date of birth, her full maiden name, parents names and where they lived.
If you have all of it or even some of it then it will be a big help.
-
Hello ckirkrph and Hugo,
I have checked both the Boards and cannot find a birth certificate for Pierce Jones on either of them. In the event you have this, please post the information it contains as mother's maiden name, their residence at time of his birth, father's occupation and any other information that may help us.
Helig.
-
I think we can rule out the marriage we have for John Jones, son o fEvan Jones, Farmer. The reason for this is that I have found them on the 1841 census and it shows:
Tyn Rhyn, Llangystennin.
Evan Jones, age 60, Farmer, born in same county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 60, born in same county.
John Jones, age 20, born in same county.
Jane Jones, age 20, F.S., born in same county.
Even allowing for the rounding down/up for the age of John, he was born too late for our person if we use the age he gives in the census returns.
There is an extract of what purports to be a death certificate for him on Ancestry. This shows he died age 47, of Gastro Enteric Fever. Informant Robert Jones, of Bryn y Gwynt, Eglwys Rhos.
The same Family Tree has a report of the birth certificate for Pierce Jones. It shows he was born on 3 November 1850, abode: Tan y Wal. Father: John Jones, labourer. Mother Elizabeth Jones formerly Williams. Mother marked information with her x mark.
The mystery continues....
Helig
-
It's a shame that we can rule out John Jones from Tyn Rhyn Llangystennin because one of our forum members, Jane is related to them through her Roberts family.
There must be a link there somehow though if the same family tree has a birth certificate for Pierce Jones.
I was at the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the Marriage Registers of Llanbedr Y Cennin from 1813 to 1850 and there is no trace there of a marriage between John and Elizabeth so they must have got married elsewhere, but where exactly?
Let's see what Chad comes up with, with that Birth Certificate
-
Hey guys! I hate technology these days, so I will try to put everything I see. It might be the same mentioned above but just in case, here goes!!... Number 238.
1850 birth in the counties of Caernarvon and Denbigh. November 3rd, 1850 Tanwal Egliayrhos (spelling?). Name: Pierce. Sex: boy. Name of father: John Jones. Name of Mother Elizabeth Jones, (formerly Williams) Occupation of father: Labor. Then the mark of Elizabeth Jones, registered November 22nd 1850. I think that is everything, sorry but I can't read the one name, hopefully y'all will recognize it. Chad
-
Might say at very top Crenddyd or Caerddyd as registration district. Chad
-
Thanks for that info Chad, it gives a better picture of what we need to look for in our search. The word is Eglwysrhos that you weren't sure of.
That Registration District at a guess may be Creuddyn the other word looks like the Welsh name for Cardiff ( Caerdydd) so it's not likely to be that. Cambrian knows a lot about these things and may be able to confirm it.
I thought that Conwy was the Registration District for that area but again Cambrian may know that too.
-
It appears that John Jones may have lived at Tan y Wal when he married. Where would the parish church have been for a marriage there c1835-1840? I am working on the most accurate information we have for his year of birth, the age of 47 in 1861 (death certificate and census shows this for him in that year). That puts his year of birth as 1814, so it would seem likely he married about 1835ish.
It could be they married in the bride's parish but Hugo has searched this and found nothing there.
Hugo, do you have any idea where Bryn y Gwynt is? The address given for Robert Jones on the death certificate of John Jones shows this place. I presume Robert Jones would have had a close relationship to John Jones, so this could give us a lead.
Helig.
-
Helig, the parish Church for Tan Y Wal is St Hilary's Church at Llanrhos (Eglwysrhos). Normally the marriage would be in the Bride's Parish but I have searched through the Church records for Llanbedr Y Cennin and the Parish records of Caerhum but could find no trace of the marriage. It may be that Elizabeth left home and lived and worked in another Parish which I would imagine is local to this area.
Now the Death Certificate shows that he died at the age of 47 in 1861, yet the Headstone on his grave said that he died in 1861 at the age of 50 so which one is correct? It's a mystery Helig and I don't know the answer, well not yet anyway.
Hypothetically speaking if John Jones was born in 1814 he would have been about 21 if he got married in 1835 but if he got married in 1844 like the John Jones I found in that Marriage Certificate then he would have been about 30.
Now in those days getting married at the age of about 30 was not unusual so we still can't rule that one out. Especially as you say there is a link to Pierce Jones that you found on that family tree.
Now Tan Y Wal is in Bryn Gwynt Lane and that is where I think John died and that address is also on his headstone. As for Robert Jones he is probably related but I don't know what the relationship was.
-
Hugo
Yes I think I can help with "Creuddyn".
Creuddyn Sub-District was part of the Conway Registration District from 1837 until 1st April 1902. There seems to have been a change in the Poor Law areas at that time - which were themselves complicated as they straddled the then Denbighshire/Caernarvonshire border. Consequently, Llanrhos Civil Parish was transferred to the Conway Sub-District and the remainder of the Creuddyn Sub-District was divided as follows:
To Llandudno Sub-District: Civil Parishes of Eglwysrhos; Llandudno; Llangwstennin and Penrhyn.
To Colwyn Bay Sub-District: Civil Parishes of Eirias, Llysfaen; Llandrillo yn Rhos; Llanelian yn Rhos and Llansantffraid Glan Conway.
So given the year of 1850, the Sub-District would have been Creuddyn.
I must confess I am not entirely sure of the individual extent of the civil parishes of Eglwysrhos and Llanrhos. I had thought they were one and the same! The Civil Parish of Penrhyn was created in 1894 so possibly that area was largely Eglwysrhos and the Llanrhos/Deganwy area was Llanrhos.
-
Thanks Cambrian for that information and it should give us more idea where to look in the Church and Parish Registers.
I think that you are correct about Eglwysrhos and Llanrhos. To me it has always been Eglwysrhos but in the Archives they have the records filed under Llanrhos but I think that's more for the ease of finding things, but I could be wrong.
I don't think that we are far away from finding John and Elizabeth but with your knowledge and experience of the area any input or suggestion you can make would be appreciated.
That Marriage Certificate I found and many others in the Register didn't help as a lot of entries in it put "full age" down instead of their actual age which doesn't help as we don't know for certain when they were born
-
St Sanens Church , Penrhynside that Hugh Hughes attended, W a branch of Llanrhos or was it a parish in its own right ?
I am only mentioning this as I have not seen that church in any of your searches.
-
St Sannan's Church was a mission church on Pendre Road, Penrhynside. It was a largely wooden building which was in use from the late C19 until the 1970s. (The site is now occupied by a dwelling called "Sannan's Lodge) The closure was mainly due to the opening of the "modern" St David's Church in Penrhyn Bay.
St Sannan's was not a parish but part of the Church in Wales Parish of Llanrhos.
One point of confusion in records is that Ecclesiastical parishes and Civil Parishes did not always cover exactly the same area. However, Civil Parishes were not created until 1894 and lasted until 1974 when they were re-styled "Communities". In the case of the Civil Parishes of Penrhyn and Llangwstennin, these were abolished in 1934 under the Caernarvonshire Review Order. The whole of Penrhyn was transferred into the Llandudno Urban District and Llangwstennin was divided between Llandudno and the Muncipal Borough of Conway.
Incidentally, for anyone interested in tracing the extents of Ecclesiastical parishes, the boundaries are shown on C19 Ordnance Survey Maps. I may have mentioned before on the forum that the quickest, easier and cost-free way of looking at these maps is via the National Library of Scotland website.
-
I have found Robert Jones, Bryn y Gwynt, on the 1861 census. He is living in Bryn y Gwynt and this is near to Tan y Wal. He is shown in a household as follows:
Robert Jones, married, age 53, Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 59, born Denbighshire, Llansanffraid.
William Jones, son, age 22, Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos.
Jane Jones, daughter, age 11, born Eglwys Rhos.
I wonder if Robert was an older brother of John Jones. This might be worth pursuing and I will later on.
Helig.
-
Thanks for mentioning the maps Cambrian, I've had a look at some and it's interesting to see how the places have changed over the years
-
I've just come across some photos of Ty'n Rhyn that I took for the Roberts family and have posted them on here just in case we establish a link with Evan Jones and his son John Jones.
Jane from the Roberts family also was related with another Jones family from Ty Ganol which is just up the hill from Ty'n Rhyn and both properties were in Llangystennin.
From memory, I think the Jones family from Ty Ganol had a son called ...... John Jones!
-
I was able to have a free go on Find My Past today and put in the criteria that we know for Elizabeth and this info appeared. Each time I try, different details appear but this time there was only one entry for an Elizabeth Williams from Llanbedr Y Cennin.
I've posted the details in the print out attached in case it helps..
-
I do wonder if the problems we have encountered in tracing baptisms, marriage etc, is because they were non conformist and the records of the chapels didn't survive.
This shows more on Eglwys Rhos: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/EglwysRhos (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/EglwysRhos)
I am still trying to find a link with Robert Jones. He is living in Bryn y Gwynt in the 1851 and 1871 census returns too. He is still there in 1881, it is interesting to note that in this census, Bryn y Gwynt was next door to Tan y Wal.
Helig.
-
In my experience with research, the Registers for places of worship can end up in various locations. County Archives, Register Office (particularly if the premises was "approved" by the GRO for weddings - this does not apply to Anglican churches as the Incumbent, for historical reasons, is a surrogate for the granting of Marriage Certificates and has his own books issued by the GRO) or even still held by the chapel etc. I do know some have even ended up in the National Library of Wales. As you say, Helig, all a bit confusing!
-
I was able to have a free go on Find My Past today and put in the criteria that we know for Elizabeth and this info appeared. Each time I try, different details appear but this time there was only one entry for an Elizabeth Williams from Llanbedr Y Cennin.
I've posted the details in the print out attached in case it helps..
I had a go again on Find my Past and put in the details and looked for a marriage search for Elizabeth and this info came up. Again there is no proof of any connection to our search but this search revealed a marriage on 2nd Dec 1942 between Elizabeth from Llanbedr Y Cennin and a John Jones in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.
Again no ages were shown just "full" and that John Jones' father was also called ....... John Jones. More interesting though is that the bride's father was called Abraham Williams and we already know that Elizabeth from Llanbedr Y Cennin had a father called Abraham Williams. Coincidence or not but it does look interesting.
-
There may be some progress in that I have managed to find baptisms for Llanrhos in the period we are interested in. These are on Freereg1, I find Freereg 2 to be hopeless.
There is a couple by the names of John and Anne Jones baptising children there at that time. so far I have found:
5/06/1808 Jane, daughter of John and Anne Jones.
01/01/1809, Robert, son of John and Anne Jones.
08/01/1809 Thomas, son of John and Anne Jones (query as Robert baptised 01/01/1809)
29/12/1811 Elizabeth, daughter of John and Anne Jones.
26/06/1814 John, son of John and Anne Jones.
These might fit with our family.
I agree with Hugo that the marriage he has found looks promising.
I found a baptism in Caerhun on Freereg for Elizabeth Williams, daughter of Thomas and Jane Williams, date 14 October 1810.
Helig
-
It's really frustrating at the moment Helig with lots of people having the same or similar names.
The Llanrhos Baptisms you have listed may be relevant to Mull's family but the John Jones we are after was born in Llangystennin and I would have expected him to be Baptised there soon after he was born.
I have seen about 5 different ways of spelling Llangystennin and unless you have the right one at the time the computer seems to not recognise the Parish and that maked searching difficult.
The Baptism you have found for Elizabeth on 14/10/1810 was in the Caerhun Baptism Register that I looked at and they lived at a house called Llety. The Register didn't say where Llety was so that's a possibility too.
-
It makes searching more difficult as Ancestry doesn't seem to have any detailed knowledge of Welsh geography. The hamlets and smaller places aren't recognised on that site. It doesn't matter how many details you enter, they still come up with other places miles away.
I think this will be difficult to establish online as the names are so common. It needs some other information in order to be certain we have the right people. Thinking of the way forward....
Helig.
-
Helig, I'm inclined to agree with you about the search. I've been to the Archives again and the records I look at are the original records so they should be correct.
However, I'm finding nothing in them that you haven't found out already and unless we have a bit of luck then we can not establish anything for certain about John and Elizabeth Jones. As I see it we haven't established the year of birth for either person and in the searches I've done using the name Elizabeth Anne Williams ( from the 1891 Census) hasn't helped either.
In the Llangystennin Baptism Register that I looked at today for the years 1808 to 1816 they had the following John Jones' Baptised:-
John son of Robert & Elizabeth Jones occupation Tailor Baptised 20/5/1808
" " Richard & Ann " " 27/3/1810
" " Richard & Mary " " 23/8/1812 Address Gist
" " Henry & Eleanor " " miner " 8/7/1815 " Morfa
" " Edward & Catherine " " farmer " 20/3/1816 address Gist
Now the John we are looking for could be any of them or ANO so It's hard at the moment and we;ve probably exhausted our sources now.
One interesting thing that you found regarding Evan Jones' history is the link to Pierce Jones so I would imagine that there is a family tie somewhere but finding it is difficult. Just for your information Evan's house Ty'n Rhyn, the Jones' at Ty Ganol and Gist are all within 200 yards of each other and there may be family ties between the three Jones'
Like I've already mentioned, Jane who posted on this forum before had connections with these Jones and also Penrhynside
and she could possibly give us some answers.
-
Hugo, thank you for the information you obtained from the archives. I remember that Mull said he intended visiting Llandudno this month and I wondered if his plans were still in place. It may be that he can find some more on his ancestors. It often helps if someone has a deep knowledge of the family and the slightest piece of information can sometimes solve the mystery.
I am sure there is a connection between Robert Jones of Bryn y Gwynt and John Jones of Tan y Wal. I noticed that in the 1881 census, Bryn y Gwynt is next door to Tan y Wal. I presume that Robert Jones changed the name of the house as in previous years it was about 5-6 houses away from Tan y Wal. There must be some significance in the name.
Mull would be able to obtain the Will of Hugh Hughes who died in 1963. The fact there is a Grant of Probate means he left a Will.
Helig.
-
You are probably correct with your idea of some connection between Robert and John Jones and that could be solved if only we knew when John was born.
Just to give you a background on the area in those days Penrhynside, Glanwydden and Llangystennin were very small villages and the main work was from mining and agriculture. Penrhynside was known locally as the "Holy City" on account of the number of Chapels and a Church for such a small population.
We know that John and Elizabeth and their son Pierce are buried in the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden so I'm assuming that they were Baptists. Living in Glanwydden at that time were the Roberts family some of whom are buried in the Baptist Cemetery. They also had relatives in Penrhynside and were somehow connected to the Jones families from Llangystennin that I've mentioned before and they may hold the key to finding which John Jones we are looking for.
I can't tell you anything about the property called Bryn Y Gwynt but if Mull does come here and wants to find more out about Penrhynside and the people it might be worth him speaking to Mr Roberts who lives next door to Tan Y Wal. Mr Roberts is a nice guy and may be in his 80's but he has lived in the village all his life and would be the one to ask about the village life
-
It is remarkable that Penrhynside was know as "Holy City". I have never heard of that before. When I lived in Penrhyn Bay in the 1960s I was of the age to be confirmed. The Confirmation classes were held in a building in Penrhynside. This was linked to St David's church on Glan y Mor Road. It was just off the main road at the top of the hill.
I think that the answer to our problems might be in the non conformist records, that is if they survived and are in the public domain. It is interesting to note that Pierce Jones married in the Sion Chapel in Conwy.
Robert Jones was the Informant of the death of John Jones in 1861. This suggests he was related, or had a close connection to him. The Family Trees on Ancestry, which show John Jones to be the son of Evan Jones, do not mention a Robert Jones in their trees.
My theory is that John Jones was the son of John and Anne Jones and that this is the family living in Penrhynside in the 1841 census. The household is shown as:
John Jones, age 65, Miner, born in same county.
Anne Jones, age 60, born in same county.
John Jones, age 25, Mason, born in same county.
William Jones, age 20, Miner, born in same county.
They are living at Pen y Park which was immediately before Gloddaeth Isa.
In the 1841 census, I found Robert Jones living in Bryn y Gwynt, a few places along and his household is shown as follows:
Robert Jones age 30 Miner, born in same county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 35, not born in same county.
John Jones, age 8, born in same county.
Hugh Jones, age 4, born in same county.
Robert Jones, age 3, born in same county.
William Jones, age 1, born in same county.
There is a family by the name of Roberts living next door to them. Head of household is Owen Roberts.
It would be good to hear what Mull finds on his visit to Llandudno.
Helig.
-
Helig, one of my walking books by Chris Draper mentions Penrhynside and says " the village was so enthusiastic about Chapel life that it built four Chapels and then added a Church for good measure. 920 holy seats for only 300 village bottoms. A village that was better known to the old tram conductors as The Holy City"
The difficulty we have is that we have so many possibilities with various dates that we cannot be absolutely certain which one is correct. Your theory is sound and probably correct but the 1841 Census which for some silly and unexplained reason rounds the ages of adults down to the nearest 5 years.
The 1841 Census has John as being 25, but even allowing for the fact that he could have been 29 and that would have made his birth about 1812. Have we got a Baptism or birth record that matches that?
-
It isn't an easy one to solve. I did wonder if John Jones, shown as 25 in the 1841 census, presumed born 1814, which would have made him 27 years old then. That age would have been shown as 25 for the purposes of the census.
The best method of obtaining his age accurately seems to be to use his age on the 1861 census, plus age at death in 1861. In both of these he was shown as 47 years, that makes his year of birth c1814.
It has occurred to me that the names of John and Anne recur all the way through this family. That suggests naming children after parents, or another close family member.
Helig.
-
It isn't an easy one to solve. I did wonder if John Jones, shown as 25 in the 1841 census, presumed born 1814, which would have made him 27 years old then. That age would have been shown as 25 for the purposes of the census.
The best method of obtaining his age accurately seems to be to use his age on the 1861 census, plus age at death in 1861. In both of these he was shown as 47 years, that makes his year of birth c1814.
Helig.
That info in the 1861 Census does show John's age as 47 and this should put John's year of birth at C1814, However the headstone on his grave shows that he was 50 when he died on 24th September 1861.
"Eu farw Medi 24 1861 yn 50 mlwydd oed"
Eng. he died September 24 1861 in 50 years old
It's frustrating Helig, just when you think you've got it another obstacle comes up but you may have the right person but it doesn't explain the discrepancy between the Census and the Headstone
-
His age is 47 years on his death certificate issued in 1861. This means we have two methods of showing his age in that year as this agrees with the census for 1861. I think that is sufficient to be satisfied it can be relied on. The death certificate for John Jones is on one of the Family Trees on Ancestry.
There is a puzzle as to why his age is shown as 50 on his gravestone. I suspect the age of Elizabeth Jones on her gravestone may be incorrect as well. They seem to have been rounded up for reasons unknown.
Helig.
-
Helig, you are probably correct in what you have said and that would put the date of birth at C 1814 and the reason for his age being 50 on the headstone is just a mystery.
Do you know the address where John was born? When I was in the Archives looking at the Register of Baptisms, I made a number of notes and one of them was for a Baptism of Isaac Jones son of John and Anne Jones of Bodffordd on 10/1/1813 and John Snr's occupation was a labourer.
So many names are the same and that is making it harder to trace people but could Isaac be John's brother?
-
Hugo,this could be an interesting one. I found an Isaac Jones, born Llangystennin, in some of the census returns. In the 1851 he is living in Eglwysbach with his family and he is a Draper. His wife is named Jane and she was born in Abergele. They have 6 children and a servant. The first named child shown is named Evan! Here we go again!
I will look at this some more later on.
I do think Robert Jones was he brother of John Jones.
It is a case of working on probabilities and these are proving difficult to verify for certain.
Helig.
-
Isaac Jones is proving quite a difficult case to make sure I have the right person. The census returns 1841 and after, all show him living in Eglwysbach, married to Jane and a Draper. They had numerous children, in the 1841, the first named child is Jesse, aged 8. In the 1861 census, he has a son named John F S Jones, aged 5.
I cannot find another Isaac Jones born 1813 in Llangystennin.
He doesn't appear on any Family Trees on Ancestry that I can see.
Helig.
-
I've seen those records for Isaac too but it's hard to get a link to John Jones. The 1841 Census is no help at all as the ages are sometimes wrong and they show the County of birth and not the actual village or town.
The 1841 Census is the earliest one online but they did carry out Censuses for 1801, 1811, 1821 and 1831 but I believe that most of them have not been kept and also there was no useful information on them anyway.
Just using a free search yesterday I came across the Baptisms of four John Jones' living in Llangystennin:-
John Jones baptised 8/7/1815
" " 30/3/1815
" " 13/3/1817
" " 17/7/ 1817
Unfortunately the search did not name the parents so it's back to square one
-
Hugo and Helig . Hi i'm Trebor Evans and i came across the Jones family of Llandudno this afternoon and Issac Jones born 1813c Llangestenin was my gr gr gr grandfather of Tyn y Fynwent Eglwysbach and his wife Jane Jones born 1811c Betws yn Rhos , Abergele . There youngest son was John Jones born 1855 . I seem to remember someone from this line of the family tree in Llandudno and having a Pharmacy or working in one ? Issac and Jane daughter Jane (my gr gr grandmother) married W R Evans of Tyn y Wal Llanelian and his cousin middle name was Pierce from Bryn Dansi Llanelian . Treb .
-
It has been a while since I made that last post but Helig may correct me if I'm wrong but I've a feeling that Mull's John Jones ( Pierce Jones' father ) was born in Llandudno
There must have been some connection to the Jones' of Llangystennin because I think Pierce was born there. Another forum member Jane P ( from the Roberts family ) has a connection to Tyn Rhyn there and could supply the link
Perhaps Mull can remember the Pharmacy connection as he is from a Jones family in Llandudno
I visited Bryn Dansi some years ago and from memory it was a lovely well kept farm near Llanelian
-
Hey guys, this is Chad Kirk and you have all been really great with helping me trace my family history pertaining to the hones family of Llandudno. I am the pharmacist I believe someone referred to. I am in Virginia. Pierce Jones was my 3rd great grandfather. I as well have had great difficulty in getting deep into his kin as the names are so common. Will help researching in whatever direction you think via Ancestry. Hope you are well. Excited to figure some of this out! Chad
-
Oops! Pertaining to the Jones family...lol