Three Towns Forum

Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: DaveR on September 03, 2010, 08:48:40 am

Title: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 03, 2010, 08:48:40 am
A coverall topic for all crime and criminal-related issues
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 22, 2010, 08:45:16 am
THE chief executive officer of a North Wales council will be tried on a rape charge in January of next year.

Defendant Byron James Davies, Conwy County Borough Council’s chief executive, entered a not guilty plea to the rape charge at Mold Crown Court yesterday. The rape allegation is said to have occurred at a house in the Llandudno area in March of this year.

Davies appeared in the dock wearing a smart, pin-striped suit, white shirt and grey tie.

He denied a charge of raping a woman between March 23 and March 25.

Judge Niclas Parry made a series of directions in readiness for the trial, which is expected to take four days.

Prosecutor John Philpotts and defending barrister David Williams said that it was agreed that the complainant’s evidence in chief should take the form of a DVD recording of her police interview.

She would then be available via a live link to the court to be cross-examined.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 22, 2010, 08:48:26 am
What concerns me about this is that he has been fully identified, yet the accuser has not.  Neither will the accuser be subject to cross examination in person.  Davies' professional career almost certainly lies in ruins, no matter the outcome,  and I think it raises serious questions about the judicial process in the UK once again.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 22, 2010, 09:55:29 am
It is interesting that the complainants evidence would be given from a DVD interview and then via a video link.  My feeling is that this implies that the complainant is a minor, or there is some other valid reason for this exceptional treatment. *&(

As the case is taking so long to come to trial the CPS must have given very serious thoughts about proceeding unless it was considered there is sufficient strong evidence to justify the case.

We now have to wait.  Is it not about time that the legal system was speeded up?

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on October 29, 2010, 03:42:55 pm
The woman who made the allegations should be made to appear in court. (Edited) Justice must be served. Mr Davies, as I'm quite sure will be found not guilty in the very near future. His biggest mistake, was not knowing who his real enemies were inside CCBC. When he comes back look out for fireworks and a few hasty redundancies
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 29, 2010, 03:51:04 pm
QUOTE from Blonbg: " Edited"
Don't think I've seen or read that piece of information before!    *&(
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on October 29, 2010, 04:24:08 pm
I don't think it's right at all. Any woman who has a grudge against any man can make these allegations. Not enough of these woman who lie (I don't mean the case in question though) actually get prosecuted and they should be. The men on the recieving end of such allegations, if proved to be lies, can never regain the total trust of family and work colleagues again. Yes the law needs to changed.  "Innocent until proved guilty" it's quite the opposite in some of these cases.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 29, 2010, 05:42:21 pm
The woman who made the allegations should be made to appear in court. Justice must be served. Mr Davies, as I'm quite sure will be found not guilty in the very near future. His biggest mistake, was not knowing who his real enemies were inside CCBC. When he comes back look out for fireworks and a few hasty redundancies
Unless you happened to be there, Blongb, then you simply can't know what actually happened, so it's perhaps unwise to present speculation as fact. Only two people know the truth - we must let the Court decide.

Personally, I found Byron's tenure at CCBC vastly underwhelming. What results or achievements in the County can anyone point to as being directly attributable to his actions?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 30, 2010, 10:10:48 am
Quote
The woman who made the allegations should be made to appear in court.

There is a great deal more to this than we know.  Courts don't allow video evidence other than in compelling cases.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2010, 01:32:40 pm
I don't know enough about this case to express an opinion but I do know that in other cases and cases involving theft, assault etc the prosecution are not allowed to state the defendant's previous criminal history as it could prejudice the case beforehand.  It's only when a verdict is reached in a case that they then can reel off a long list of convictions.
In cases like the one stated, as the defendant has been named, mud tends to stick irrespective of the outcome of the trial.  I know one person who was falsely accused of something by a malicious person and they lost their promising career because of it and also their good name and reputation.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on October 30, 2010, 08:59:23 pm
(Edited by Admin) Guilty or not, that’s not for me to say, but I do hope all parties involved are aware of the penalties for attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 16, 2010, 08:27:03 am
Bob Ainsworth has come out in favour of drug legalisation. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12005824)  As if to show how sane this notion really is, when the BBC presented an interview with him this morning and had the chairman of the Alliance against drugs campaign on to refute Bob's suggestion, all the chairman could manage was to say that 'It won't get rid of the criminal drug gangs even if we gave all drugs away.'.    Wonder what planet he's from, then?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 16, 2010, 09:20:59 am
Gilbert and Sullivan Planet

My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time —
To let the punishment fit the crime —
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!
Of innocent merriment!


   The Mikado
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 26, 2011, 05:37:42 pm
Byron was found Not Guilty

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-12286592 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-12286592)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 26, 2011, 06:35:35 pm
One piece of advice I was given when I was progressing up my career ladder was,
"Never shag the payroll!"

It sounds somewhat crude now, even as it did all those years ago, but it remains a sound piece of advice as immediately one gets too close to staff in their employment, their position is totally compromised.

 $uk

I wonder what the outcome of the Council investigation will be?    )*)&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on January 27, 2011, 02:24:58 am
One piece of advice I was given when I was progressing up my career ladder was,
"Never shag the payroll!"

It sounds somewhat crude now, even as it did all those years ago, but it remains a sound piece of advice as immediately one gets too close to staff in their employment, their position is totally compromised.

 $uk

I wonder what the outcome of the Council investigation will be?    )*)&

Is that why you stayed on the bottom rung Yorkie?

 8)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 27, 2011, 08:11:04 am
Trojan!  $smack$

Talking of Byron, I can't really see how he can come back from this. Regardless of the outcome, it all comes across as rather seedy and not of the standard of behaviour you would expect from someone holding such a prominent position in Conwy County.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 27, 2011, 09:27:56 am
One piece of advice I was given when I was progressing up my career ladder was,
"Never shag the payroll!"
It sounds somewhat crude now, even as it did all those years ago, but it remains a sound piece of advice as immediately one gets too close to staff in their employment, their position is totally compromised.
I wonder what the outcome of the Council investigation will be?    )*)&

Is that why you stayed on the bottom rung Yorkie?
8)


Actually I devised a new way to get to the top in such situations.  I turned the ladder upside down!   _))*   _))*   _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 27, 2011, 09:18:18 pm
Never Sh#g the payroll?
I always found that it was the best part of my career, (such as my career was)

In fact it was almst compulsory in several companies that I worked in.

In fact, without that culture, I wouldn't have met the current Mrs Fester!

More seriously though, Mr Byron's life and career will never be the same again.  Its entirely wrong that this can be allowed to happen to an INNOCENT man.
Moreover, the repercussions for HER should be enormous and proportionate.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2011, 02:07:15 am
Can you believe the furore over the Sky Sports presenters getting sacked over the sexism incident?

I think that chauvanism is just plain wrong.

If the girl in question was up to date with her ironing, the house was tidy and her husband didn't need anything, then why shouldn't she be allowed to play out for a bit?

 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on January 28, 2011, 04:06:43 am
One piece of advice I was given when I was progressing up my career ladder was,
"Never shag the payroll!"
It sounds somewhat crude now, even as it did all those years ago, but it remains a sound piece of advice as immediately one gets too close to staff in their employment, their position is totally compromised.
I wonder what the outcome of the Council investigation will be?    )*)&

Is that why you stayed on the bottom rung Yorkie?
8)

Actually I devised a new way to get to the top in such situations.  I turned the ladder upside down!   _))*   _))*   _))*

Well.....Liebherr does have a vast array of earth moving equipment.  L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on January 28, 2011, 04:52:17 am
A "Black Widow" suicide bomber planned a terrorist attack in central Moscow on New Year's Eve but was killed when an unexpected text message set off her bomb too early, according to Russian security sources.

The unnamed woman, who is thought to be part of the same group that struck Moscow's Domodedovo airport on Monday, intended to detonate a suicide belt near Red Square on New Year's Eve in an attack that could have killed hundreds.

Security sources believe a message from her mobile phone operator wishing her a happy new year received just hours before the planned attack triggered her suicide belt, killing her at a safe house.
 +}}{--
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 28, 2011, 08:24:10 am
She won't make that mistake again.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 28, 2011, 08:46:41 am

Moreover, the repercussions for HER should be enormous and proportionate.

Which is a lot more than he (or she) experienced on the fateful night!        _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on January 28, 2011, 01:35:45 pm
Can you believe the furore over the Sky Sports presenters getting sacked over the sexism incident?

I think that chauvanism is just plain wrong.

If the girl in question was up to date with her ironing, the house was tidy and her husband didn't need anything, then why shouldn't she be allowed to play out for a bit?

 

Mmmm. Hope Mrs Fester doesn't read this !!!
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared004.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2011, 09:58:53 pm
Not such a SAFE house then?  Thats actually quite amusing.... imagine the look on her face in that last moment as that little text jingle sounded?

The only way it could have been more ironic is if the message read...   Hi, Happy NY  C U 2moz M8? 

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on January 29, 2011, 04:13:40 am
Can you believe the furore over the Sky Sports presenters getting sacked over the sexism incident?

I think that chauvanism is just plain wrong.

If the girl in question was up to date with her ironing, the house was tidy and her husband didn't need anything, then why shouldn't she be allowed to play out for a bit?

 

Mmmm. Hope Mrs Fester doesn't read this !!!
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared004.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)


She can't, she's 'playing out for a bit'.  L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on February 02, 2011, 12:21:17 am
Here is something that surprised me, in fact it shocked me.

Last week when I was visiting family in Bradford, it the main headline in the Newspapers that West Yorkshire Police will 'decline' this year to publish last years Crime figures.

The reason given , they didn't want to frighten or alarm the population.

Now, firstly I didn't think that they were allowed to refuse this information  (in these days of FOI) ...secondly, there is nothing more guaranteed to alarm the population than NOT daring to tell them how bad crime is !

This situation is apparently still going on.
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: suepp on February 07, 2011, 05:47:03 pm
This is amazing - good for her!
http://www.itv.com/news/hero-granny-stops-thief39343/ (http://www.itv.com/news/hero-granny-stops-thief39343/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on February 07, 2011, 06:47:40 pm
Amazing!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on February 07, 2011, 09:27:34 pm
Looks totally fake to me....  lots of things odd about that footage.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 15, 2011, 08:20:00 am
Looks like another big chunk of taxpayers money will be wasted for a few more months!!!  :rage:


Further suspension for Byron Davies of Conwy council

The chief executive of Conwy council has been suspended from his job for a further unspecified period.

Byron Davies, 52, was first suspended last March after he was arrested by police investigating an alleged rape.

In January Mold Crown Court found him not guilty of raping a woman who said she was too drunk to consent to sex.

The council said the first set of "disciplinary matters" had been concluded but "other matters" needing consideration had now come to light.

It said in a statement: "Conwy County Borough Council met today and concluded its consideration of an independent report into disciplinary matters relating to its chief executive, Mr Byron Davies. That matter has now been concluded.

"However, as a result of the need to examine other matters that came to light during consideration of the investigation report, the council decided that Mr Davies should be suspended for a further period."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-12737917 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-12737917)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2011, 08:48:10 am
Quote
Looks like another big chunk of taxpayers money will be wasted for a few more months!!! 

And he's not even on benefits :-))))
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2011, 08:17:17 pm
The Minutes of the Special Meeting have now been published:
http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgAi.aspx?ID=27917 (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/mgAi.aspx?ID=27917)

If it is all true, you have to wonder why on earth he was ever employed in the first place? What a complete disaster for CCBC. Bring on the elected Mayor, I say, the taxpayers have had enough of this nonsense.

Of particular interest:


RESOLVED-


(a)        That the Council finds that Mr Davies is guilty of misconduct

          by virtue of:

(i)       his over aggressive behaviour to staff (he was abrasive, rude and confrontational on frequent occasions);

(ii)    his lack of judgement in the events of March 2010 in drinking and driving; and

(iii)   contributing to the failure to maintain the necessary trust and confidence by reason of his aggressive behaviour.

 

Those voting in favour: 37

Those voting against: 0



(b)       That the Investigation Committee be asked to investigate further that:


(i)        Mr Davies has misled the Senior Disciplinary Committee when giving evidence on past criminal matters, including specifically, when answering the question ‘Have you ever been convicted, arrested or investigated for any form of misconduct either in work or out of work in the past?’;

(ii)       Mr Davies has misled the Senior Disciplinary Committee when giving evidence on which matters he had informed the Council, including specifically, when answering the question ‘Have you completed a CRB check?’; and

(iii)       The Investigation Committee should consider whether any misconduct (including any breakdown of trust and confidence) arose from these or any relevant similar and/or ancillary matters.

 
(c)       That Council note the following concerns of the Senior Disciplinary Committee (no action required):


(i)        Mr Davies’ continuous denial that he had only drank 3 – 3.5 pints, not withstanding the DIP’s conclusion that he had drank between 5 – 5.5 pints.  The Committee would have expected a more candid response.

(ii)       Mr Davies’ poor recollection and denial of events relating to Paragraph 52 of the DIP’s report, only when challenged did Mr Davies recollect the incident.  Again the Committee would have accepted a more candid response.


(d)       That Mr. Davies receives a final written warning to the effect:

 
(i)        That he should not engage in aggressive and confrontational conduct or language to members of staff and councillors and should seek to promote harmonious working arrangements amongst officers and members;

(ii)               That he should remain conscious of his role as an ambassador for the Council in work time and outside such that his conduct should maintain and enhance the reputation of the Council and not bring to it discredit.  In particular he must carefully consider whether he is in a fit state to drive after drinking; and

(iii)             These warnings should remain on his record for 24 months.

 
(e)               That Mr. Davies should have no power of any sort to discipline anyone or recommend disciplinary action (including dismissals relating to capability, reorganisations, restructuring and redundancy) henceforth throughout his employment, with a review after 12 months.

 
(f)                 That in light of Recommendation d (ii), Council considers amending appropriate Council policies and procedures to take account of this resolution.


(g)              That Mr. Davies takes to heart the Council’s anti-bullying policy and considers the impact of his words and actions on other people.

 
(h)              That there should be regular appraisals (which should not be as long drawn out as the first) at yearly intervals and that Mr. Davies must enter into the proper spirit of them and does not think that any criticism of him as he put it is ‘an attack’.


(i)                 That Mr. Davies must accept that people rightly look to the Council to meet the required standards of propriety.


(j)                 That Mr. Davies should be careful about conducting any Council business (as he said he did) in pubs or hotels.


(k)               That the following Return to Work Strategy be adopted for discussion with the Chief Executive and his advisers and that external facilitation be engaged with Mr. Davies to undertake the appropriate measures to manage his return to work:



(i)          That Mr Davies takes 14 days leave from 14 March 2011, part of the 33 untaken days from 2010/11;

(ii)        That Mr. Davies’ direct reports be restricted to Senior Officers only;

(iii)     That the Chief Executive will not hold one to one meetings with any member of staff or Councillor;

(iv)     Actions agreed in discussion should be recorded in writing;

(v)        As an early priority, the Chief Executive will attend anti-bullying training.  Mr Davies, will also certify his knowledge and  understanding of both the law and policy in respect of victimisation and harassment and the personal consequence of engaging in such behaviour;

(vi)     Mr Davies will undertake training in relation to Equalities and Diversity, and Interpersonal Skills (including listening skills); and

(vii)         That Mr. Davies is subject to an enhanced CRB check prior to him returning to work.


(l)                  That Council note the view of the Senior Disciplinary Committee that trust and confidence has broken down and that there is an opportunity to enter into dialogue with Mr. Davies regarding a mutual settlement.


Those voting in favour of Resolutions B to L: 28

Those voting against Resolutions B to L: 14
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Paddy on March 17, 2011, 08:31:26 pm
Has he still got his job?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2011, 08:34:47 pm
Still suspended on full pay for a few more months while more allegations are investigated. Nice, especially when you're on £130,000 a year.,,,of our money.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 17, 2011, 08:40:16 pm
(l)                  That Council note the view of the Senior Disciplinary Committee that trust and confidence has broken down and that there is an opportunity to enter into dialogue with Mr. Davies regarding a mutual settlement.

That looks like it is going to be a Golden Goodbye, a payoff!    And KF gets the job as CE!

Who interviewd the guy ion the first place? Because they all need sacking for saddling the community with such a person.    :rage:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 17, 2011, 09:33:23 pm
Another interesting case, this time the Whalley-Huws mortgage fraud:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7684861.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7684861.stm)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-12769447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-12769447)

Fourteen people, including a solicitor, surveyors, valuers and mortgage advisers, have appeared in court charged in connection with an alleged £20m conspiracy to defraud.

"It follows a two-year inquiry by North Wales Police into alleged multiple fraudulent mortgage applications. The defendants made their first appearance before Flintshire magistrates on Thursday. They were granted bail until a crown court hearing in April.

The defendants are Nicholas John Jones, 52, of Leeswood, Flintshire; Frank Edward Darlington, 59, of Kelnbrook, Barnoldswick, Lancashire; Christopher Hansen, 48, of Kinmel Bay, Conwy; Lisa Margaret Hansen, 41, of Kinmel Bay; Antony Lowry-Huws, 62, of Kinmel Bay; Raymond Charles Whalley, 36, of Prenton, Merseyside; Sheila Rose Whalley, 65, of Llanfairtalhaiarn, near Abergele; Linda Campbell, 40, of Glasgow; Michael Georgieff-Jones, 67, of Dyserth, Denbighshire; Susan Margaret Lowry-Huws, 58, of Kinmel Bay; David Arthur McMeekin, 54, of Riddrie, Glasgow; Brendan Derek Spencer-Whalley, 43, and Nicola Jane Spencer-Whalley, 38, of Royan, France; and George Walker, 57, of Colwyn Bay, Conwy.

All defendants were rebailed before a preliminary hearing at Caernarfon Crown Court on 13 April."

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 18, 2011, 07:53:20 am
I find this rather odd:

Quote
(i)        Mr Davies has misled the Senior Disciplinary Committee when giving evidence on past criminal matters, including specifically, when answering the question ‘Have you ever been convicted, arrested or investigated for any form of misconduct either in work or out of work in the past?’;

(ii)       Mr Davies has misled the Senior Disciplinary Committee when giving evidence on which matters he had informed the Council, including specifically, when answering the question ‘Have you completed a CRB check?’; and

Enhanced disclosure CRB checks are a fairly standard requirement, and saying you have one isn't good enough;  you always have to undergo a further check.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 18, 2011, 08:14:24 am
I have 3 CRB Certificates each one refering to a different voluntary appointment. 

The need to have a CRB check for every employment was confusing to say the least and I would have been correct in saying "Yes" to the question when at my second or third engagement, although the first certificate may not have covered those risks.  As it happens ALL three of my certificates were in respect of the same category of risk.

The rules have now been changed and one certificate is transferable providing it is covering the required risks.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 18, 2011, 10:22:25 pm
I'm confused now....
Byron Davies has committed crimes in the past, and been ACQUITTED of a serious crime recently... but everyone can name him and demand that his head be cut off?

Yet Bugsy commits low level insidious crime all is life.... and people leap to his defence?

Tell you what..... why don't we make Bugsy the CEO of Conwy Council?
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 18, 2011, 10:23:57 pm
Couldn't do a much worse job....mind you, the bar bill might go up....then again, maybe not!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on March 19, 2011, 03:02:28 am
Couldn't do a much worse job....mind you, the bar bill might go up....then again, maybe not!

 _))* _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 19, 2011, 08:48:28 am
Quote
Byron Davies has committed crimes in the past, and been ACQUITTED of a serious crime recently... but everyone can name him and demand that his head be cut off?

FWIW, I believe - and have said - that BD was treated very poorly, by being identified at the outset.  There's a rationale behind that approach (it's believed identification at the outset enables or encourages other victims to come forward) but I still think it's wrong. He was a public figure, however, and the facts will always emerge, as newspapers will always pay for that information and someone will happily commit their own little 'crime' in order to get the money.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 19, 2011, 10:53:42 am
At the very least, people would have wondered where the Chief Executive had gone!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Paddy on March 19, 2011, 03:04:15 pm
Quote
Byron Davies has committed crimes in the past, and been ACQUITTED of a serious crime recently... but everyone can name him and demand that his head be cut off?

FWIW, I believe - and have said - that BD was treated very poorly, by being identified at the outset.  There's a rationale behind that approach (it's believed identification at the outset enables or encourages other victims to come forward) but I still think it's wrong. He was a public figure, however, and the facts will always emerge, as newspapers will always pay for that information and someone will happily commit their own little 'crime' in order to get the money.

In a similar vein, perhaps identification of the "victim" would encourage others who have been falsely accused to come forward.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2011, 06:09:49 pm
Another interesting case, this time the Whalley-Huws mortgage fraud:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7684861.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7684861.stm)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-12769447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-12769447)

It'll be interesting to follow this case and see if  the "Teflon"  is still working for someone.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 27, 2011, 03:33:14 pm
I liked this tweet from Robert Peston about the troublemakers in London yesterday...

"if the troublemakers really are anarchists, they must be confused - when were anarchists ever in favour of a bigger government & state?"

 $elvis$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 27, 2011, 03:51:14 pm
If this e-mail is true the it says it all

Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than
635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..

29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year

and

collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer
£92,993,748 in
expenses!!!

Which organisation is this?

It's the 635 members of the House of Commons.

The same group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed
to keep the rest of us in line.

What a bunch of bozos we have running our country

- it says it all...

And just to top all that they probably have the best 'corporate'
pension scheme in the country!!

If you agree that this is an appalling state of affairs, please pass it
on to everyone you know






Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 27, 2011, 04:06:39 pm
Completely untrue!  :o
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/mar/20/mpsincorruptionshocker (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/mar/20/mpsincorruptionshocker)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 27, 2011, 05:35:04 pm
I liked this tweet from Robert Peston about the troublemakers in London yesterday...

"if the troublemakers really are anarchists, they must be confused - when were anarchists ever in favour of a bigger government & state?"

 $elvis$

very true!

in my day anarchists seemed much better organised than they are now  :)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 14, 2011, 09:41:52 am
On a bus yesterday, I overheard this conversation (as did everyone else on the bus as he wasn't exactly quiet) with a guy and his mate. The guy had just left the Court at Llandudno. Apparently, his case (not sure what he had been charged with) was at 10am but he had only bothered to show up at 11.30am and just given them some made up excuse about 'having to look after a flat for a friend'. He was thrilled because a Policeman was there to meet him, who was going to 'help him find a flat, stop the dole from deducting any money from him' etc. The Policeman had given him his phone number and told him to call him any time, 'even to go out for a pint'.

The greatest bit of all was that he owned his mate £10 but not to worry, because before he went to Court, he had gone into a shop in Llandudno and stolen two coats that he was going to sell to pay back his mate!

It just goes to show that trying to help people like that is pointless - they just take, take, take and have no concern for anyone other than themselves. From this guy's conversation, it was very clear that the Police were more interested in pandering to this little inadequate than actually seeing any justice being done.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: gwil on April 14, 2011, 01:04:46 pm
From this guy's conversation, it was very clear that the Police were more interested in pandering to this little inadequate than actually seeing any justice being done.

Also of course, if this guy was so loose tongued on the bus then there's every possibilty that he is the same with the cop regarding others of the towns underbelly? Worth a few favours I suppose.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 14, 2011, 10:13:33 pm
I seriously doubt that this little scroat had been invited for a pint with any police officer.

It will have been another of his little fantasies to make him seem big in the eyes of his mate.

He didn't mention what size these coats were did he Dave?  I was a bit chilly myself this evening...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 14, 2011, 11:23:30 pm
He didn't mention what size these coats were did he Dave?  I was a bit chilly myself this evening...
They were Large, mate. Sorry.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Paddy on April 15, 2011, 12:46:48 am
He didn't mention what size these coats were did he Dave?  I was a bit chilly myself this evening...
They were Large, mate. Sorry.  :laugh:

He'll grow into it!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2011, 08:09:50 am
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on May 23, 2011, 10:31:16 pm
Has anyone been watching the programme Stangeways?  It quite an interesting show, however while watching tonight's episode I got the uncomfortable feeling that more and more mentally ill people  are ending up behind bars instead of proper facilities that could cater for their mental health issues.  It was clear that people are being held in prisons for a considerable length of time before being professionally assessed.  This not only ties up the prison staff who in some instances are not trained sufficiently to deal with such individuals.  I wonder how many have been dumped in prisons up and down the country due to the fact most of the high risk mental hospitals have long since been shut down.  As my friend Janet on facebook said If there was more mental health beds in N Wales maybe that poor woman wouldnt have been decapatated in Tenerife ,,
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2011, 12:32:26 am
Take a look at this story  (Merddin Emrys, I URGE you not to look at it, but you will)

What the hell is going on in Britain today?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13616599 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13616599)

No doubt another police 'caution' or magistrates 'slap on the wrist' awaits the perpetrators...  I'm sick of it!!!!   :puke2: :puke2: :puke2:

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 02, 2011, 07:00:59 am
Take a look at this story  (Merddin Emrys, I URGE you not to look at it, but you will)

What the hell is going on in Britain today?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13616599 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-13616599)

No doubt another police 'caution' or magistrates 'slap on the wrist' awaits the perpetrators...  I'm sick of it!!!!   :puke2: :puke2: :puke2:


"Eighteen birds have been beheaded, a frog speared, fish poisoned and 130 windows smashed at a Manchester park.

The vandals broke into the aviary in Wythenshawe Park between 1630 BST on Saturday and 1000 BST on Sunday.

After beheading the birds, they threw the carcasses around. They then filled a pond with fertiliser, killing the carp. They also chopped down trees."


No doubt the lefty do-gooders will have an excuse for their behaviour....
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 02, 2011, 07:48:52 am

"Eighteen birds have been beheaded, a frog speared, fish poisoned and 130 windows smashed at a Manchester park.

The vandals broke into the aviary in Wythenshawe Park between 1630 BST on Saturday and 1000 BST on Sunday.

After beheading the birds, they threw the carcasses around. They then filled a pond with fertiliser, killing the carp. They also chopped down trees."


No doubt the lefty do-gooders will have an excuse for their behaviour....

I'm absolutely not a lefty do gooder so I'd happily behead the scum that did that  $angry$ $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 02, 2011, 08:28:52 am
Quote
I'm absolutely not a lefty do gooder so I'd happily behead the scum that did that

Wonder if they were severely learning-disabled?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 02, 2011, 08:42:27 am
What is perhaps of more concern is that people who harm animals at an early age often progress to violence against humans. John Venables and Robert Thompson tortured animals before doing the same to toddler James Bulger.

My prediction is the perpetrators will be as follows. 2 or 3 local lads, between 12 and 15 years of age. At least one of them will already be known to the Police for a succession of minor offences like vandalism and anti social behaviour.

Once they are caught, social workers will be trotted out to wring their hands and talk about 'poor family background' and various other excuses. So they will end up not being punished. A couple of years later, one of them will end up seriously injuring or killing someone and an Enquiry will have to be held to discuss the failings of Social Services. The Head of Social Services will get fired but will sue for wrongful dismissal and end up with loads of compensation for the distress caused in everyone assuming he/she might actually be held accountable for the actions of their department.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2011, 11:28:54 pm
Dave, you synopsis rings frighteningly true.

Which begs a related question.

Why don't we have much more swingeing cuts of the social services budget?    They don't seem to acheive very much...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 03, 2011, 10:00:34 am
Quote
Once they are caught, social workers will be trotted out to wring their hands and talk about 'poor family background' and various other excuses. So they will end up not being punished.

That's not what happens. In fact, that's about as far from reality as the Daily Mail is from News.

Here's a point:  you catch them, then what would you do?

Quote
Why don't we have much more swingeing cuts of the social services budget?    They don't seem to acheive very much..

Well, if you can persuade Parliament to repeal the wads of legislation, the Children Act in particular, then you might be able to cut the already very restricted budget. Social Services mainly exist to meet the statutory duties imposed on them by parliament. 

The incredible pressures on Child Protection Social Workers already mean that few make it into their fifteenth year of service.

So here's another question: do you know exactly what it is the Social Services does?

If we take Child protection - the group Dave portrays as being "trotted out to wring their hands and talk about 'poor family background' and various other excuses" - their role is to assume the statutory responsibilities for the protection of children as laid down by parliament.  Now, if they tried to cover every child ever born in the UK - an aspiration which some of the tabloids suggest - then there would be screams of outrage against 'big brother'.   So they deal only with referrals.  Now, in another topic in here people were roundly condemning those who attacked and tortured the residents of the hospital. These residents were learning disabled and often - although not inevitably - from learning disabled parents, all of which means they could easily be displaying a wide range of what are euphemistically termed 'challenging behaviours', which can include vandalism, maiming and killing animals and a lot worse. I wonder if anyone is starting to see the irony?

Back to the referrals, and social services can only open a case when a complaint or notification is received. Once that happens, the system swings into operation, with case conferences, joint agency  meetings, school reports, medical reports - in short, the works.  What you might not realise is how many referrals are malicious.  Surprising that perhaps someone who's fallen out with a neighbour wants to bring a whole load of troubles down on their heads, and the easiest way to do that is an anonymous call to the egregious NSPCC.

If it does turn out that there is really a cause for concern, then case workers are assigned to a family and the formal assessment is made.  Now, strangely enough, bad parents don't see themselves as bad, so they protest strongly when social workers appear to question their methods, and the court will appoint a solicitor to defend their 'interests'.  This means court appearances, and the gathering of evidence - more time, expense and paperwork.  If the evidence doesn't hold water in court, the entire process has to restart.

Finally, whose fault is it if a ten year old vandalises?





Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 03, 2011, 11:42:40 pm
Some extremely erudite and thought provoking points made there by Ian.

Sadly, I am tempted to move even further to the extreme 'right wing' on this, as I see it as a never ending (and because of breeding) a growing spiral.

I would advocate that birth control should be a matter for the state, with strict criteria laid down for who can, and who cannot reproduce.
More learned people than I can lay down that criteria,

Perhaps one facet of this should be to ensure that no pregnancy will be allowed to continue, if the physical or mental disability identified by some form of scan is beyond a certain extreme level?    Once again, I would not consider myself expert enough to have a view on what that level is.

Radical thinking for some tastes, but totally pragmatic and overdue in the view of others I would suggest.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: suepp on June 04, 2011, 01:50:20 am
Elimination is actually routinely available for individuals identified prior to birth with certain disabilities

Not sure what percentage of serial killers/violent criminals apprehended are diagnosed with above disabilities, -  would be interested to know the answer


I also wonder what the statistics are for individuals with  disabilities who have had crimes committed against them ?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on June 04, 2011, 01:51:48 am
Some extremely erudite and thought provoking points made there by Ian.

Sadly, I am tempted to move even further to the extreme 'right wing' on this, as I see it as a never ending (and because of breeding) a growing spiral.

I would advocate that birth control should be a matter for the state, with strict criteria laid down for who can, and who cannot reproduce.
More learned people than I can lay down that criteria,

Perhaps one facet of this should be to ensure that no pregnancy will be allowed to continue, if the physical or mental disability identified by some form of scan is beyond a certain extreme level?    Once again, I would not consider myself expert enough to have a view on what that level is.

Radical thinking for some tastes, but totally pragmatic and overdue in the view of others I would suggest.

This idea isn't exactly new Fester!

FORCED STERILIZATIONS

The "sterilization Law" explained the importance of weeding out so-called genetic defects from the total German gene pool:

    Since the National Revolution public opinion has become increasingly preoccupied with questions of demographic policy and the continuing decline in the birthrate. However, it is not only the decline in population which is a cause for serious concern but equally the increasingly evident genetic composition of our people. Whereas the hereditarily healthy families have for the most part adopted a policy of having only one or two children, countless numbers of inferiors and those suffering from hereditary conditions are reproducing unrestrainedly while their sick and asocial offspring burden the community.

Some scientists and physicians opposed the involuntary aspect of the law while others pointed to possible flaws. But the designation of specific conditions as inherited, and the desire to eliminate such illnesses or handicaps from the population, generally reflected the scientific and medical thinking of the day in Germany and elsewhere.

Nazi Germany was not the first or only country to sterilize people considered "abnormal." Before Hitler, the United States led the world in forced sterilizations. Between 1907 and 1939, more than 30,000 people in twenty-nine states were sterilized, many of them unknowingly or against their will, while they were incarcerated in prisons or institutions for the mentally ill. Nearly half the operations were carried out in California. Advocates of sterilization policies in both Germany and the United States were influenced by eugenics. This sociobiological theory took Charles Darwin's principle of natural selection and applied it to society. Eugenicists believed the human race could be improved by controlled breeding.

Still, no nation carried sterilization as far as Hitler's Germany. The forced sterilizations began in January 1934, and altogether an estimated 300,000 to 400,000 people were sterilized under the law. A diagnosis of "feeblemindedness" provided the grounds in the majority of cases, followed by schizophrenia and epilepsy. The usual method of sterilization was vasectomy and ligation of ovarian tubes of women. Irradiation (x-rays or radium) was used in a small number of cases. Several thousand people died as a result of the operations, women disproportionately because of the greater risks of tubal ligation.

Most of the persons targeted by the law were patients in mental hospitals and other institutions. The majority of those sterilized were between the ages of twenty and forty, about equally divided between men and women. Most were "Aryan" Germans. The "Sterilization Law" did not target socalled racial groups, such as Jews and Gypsies, although Gypsies were sterilized as deviant "asocials," as were some homosexuals. Also, about 500 teenagers of mixed African and German parentage (the offspring of French colonial troops stationed in the Rhineland in the early 1920s) were sterilized because of their race, by secret order, outside the provisions of the law.

Although the "Sterilization Law" sometimes functioned arbitrarily, the semblance of legality underpinning it was important to the Nazi regime. More than 200 Hereditary Health Courts were set up across Germany and later, annexed territories. Each was made up of two physicians and one district judge. Doctors were required to register with these courts every known case of hereditary illness. Appeals courts were also established, but few decisions were ever reversed. Exemptions were sometimes given artists or other talented persons afflicted with mental illnesses. The "Sterilization Law" was followed by the Marriage Law of 1935, which required for all marriages proof that any offspring from the union would not be afflicted with a disabling hereditary disease.

Only the Roman Catholic Church, for doctrinal reasons, opposed the sterilization program consistently; most German Protestant churches accepted and often cooperated with the policy. Popular films such as Das Erbe ("Inheritance") helped build public support for government policies by stigmatizing the mentally ill and the handicapped and highlighting the costs of care. School mathematics books posed such questions as: "The construction of a lunatic asylum costs 6 million marks. How many houses at 15,000 marks each could have been built for that amount?"

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 04, 2011, 09:05:36 am
Quote
Perhaps one facet of this should be to ensure that no pregnancy will be allowed to continue, if the physical or mental disability identified by some form of scan is beyond a certain extreme level?

As Suepp points out, abortion is offered to any woman whose foetus displays as abnormal.  But no;  the scan don't detect potential anti-social behaviours, possibly because it's believed that most stem from upbringing. However, compulsory sterilisation for all is an interesting option. For many years adding contraceptives to drinking water has been considered, with the individuals having to ask for the antidote, thus making child birth a thing of choice and not accident.  But in a civilised and free society, what would the criteria be for granting such a wish, and who would formulate that criteria?

And, chillingly, once you advocate the restriction of the freedom to become pregnant, it's highly likely that other freedoms would follow suit. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on June 04, 2011, 03:46:07 pm
It's a very difficult one to solve Ian and I can see that the points you have put across to balance the discussion are very valid.
A working couple usually limit the amount of children they have to what they can afford so as to give those children a decent start in life.
Some others on benefits however seem to make a career out of having children without any thought for the long term future of the children.
Last year there was a couple who had had 13 children all of whom were taken off them when the child was at a very early age because it was considered that the child was at risk. At the time the woman was pregnant with her 14th child and she had already been told that when the baby was born it would be taken off her as she was an unfit mother.
This woman stated in the paper that this would not stop her from becoming pregnant again as she was determined to have a child that she should keep!
What do you do with people like that?     
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 04, 2011, 04:24:03 pm
Quote
What do you do with people like that?     

That is a case where compulsory sterilisation might be sought, and granted. But Judges - rightly, in my view - take a pretty serious view of authorising what is, in effect, a serious assault, so the evidence for it has to be overwhelming.  With 13 kids having been removed, however, I would suggest that perhaps it is.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 04, 2011, 11:57:16 pm
I believe that the solution is a little piece of lead, inserted into the left ear.............fired from a GUN.



Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 05, 2011, 08:21:12 am
Quote
I believe that the solution is a little piece of lead, inserted into the left ear.............fired from a GUN.

Don't forget the smiley;  otherwise, people might get the impression you're being serious.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on June 05, 2011, 03:23:41 pm
Quote
I believe that the solution is a little piece of lead, inserted into the left ear.............fired from a GUN.

Don't forget the smiley;  otherwise, people might get the impression you're being serious.

I thought he was serious. I was just about to suggest a .50 caliber (the one on the left)

*Edit*  :)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 05, 2011, 04:19:16 pm
I was concerned that fired in the left ear it would fly out of the right ear with very  little to slow it down! WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 05, 2011, 09:42:59 pm
I saw no need for the use of any smiley.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on June 06, 2011, 06:04:01 am
I saw no need for the use of any smiley.

Fester.....what are you turning into?  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 06, 2011, 08:05:45 am
I saw no need for the use of any smiley.

Fester.....what are you turning into?  :o
An E Thug?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on June 06, 2011, 03:16:35 pm
I saw no need for the use of any smiley.

Fester.....what are you turning into?  :o
An E Thug?

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on June 08, 2011, 11:03:14 am
Quote
Once they are caught, social workers will be trotted out to wring their hands and talk about 'poor family background' and various other excuses. So they will end up not being punished.

That's not what happens. In fact, that's about as far from reality as the Daily Mail is from News.

It does happen I'm afraid and it happens with lawyers in Court too.   Some of them are worse then the fat cat bankers as they are not interested in justice, just in getting a fat fee for representing their "clients"
They seem to  repeat the same things over and over again, such as "they had a deprived background"   "come from a broken home"   "parents were alcoholics"  "they were alcoholics but are seeking treatment"   "long term unemployment but are gainfully seeking employment" etc etc.
This is done to make it look like the defendant is a victim of circumstances beyond their control and gain sympathy from the Magistrates or the Judge and Jury, when in fact it is sometimes just  intended to mislead the prosecution.
The Prosecution on the other hand cannot reveal the previous crimes committed by the defendant as "it could prejudice the proceedings present"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 08, 2011, 11:16:11 am
I found an interesting article in the The Economist today.

The Economist - "...during the current downturn, the unemployment rate rose as the crime rate fell. Between 2008 and 2009 violent crime fell by 5.3% and property crime by 4.6%; between 2009 and 2010, according to the preliminary Uniform Crime Report released by the FBI on May 23rd, violent crime fell by another 5.5% and property crime by 2.8%. Robberies—precisely the crime one might expect to rise during tough economic times—fell by 9.5% between 2009 to 2010. The decline in violent crimes was sharpest in small towns, where the rate dropped by more than 25%, and among regions sharpest in the South, which saw a 7.5% decline. Only two cities with more than 1m people—San Antonio and New York—saw their crime rates rise. And some perspective is warranted there: in 1991 around 2,200 people were murdered in New York. Last year just 536 were. Overall, America’s violent-crime rate is at its lowest level in around 40 years, and its murder rate at its lowest in almost 50."

Interestingly, one of the possible reasons given for the fall was the removal of lead from petrol:

"For decades, doctors have known that children with lots of lead in their blood are much more likely to be aggressive, violent and delinquent. In 1974, the Environmental Protection Agency required oil companies to stop putting lead in gasoline. At the same time, lead in paint was banned for any new home (though old buildings still have lead paint, which children can absorb).

Tests have shown that the amount of lead in Americans' blood fell by four-fifths between 1975 and 1991. A 2007 study by the economist Jessica Wolpaw Reyes contended that the reduction in gasoline lead produced more than half of the decline in violent crime during the 1990s in the U.S. and might bring about greater declines in the future. Another economist, Rick Nevin, has made the same argument for other nations."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2011, 07:25:43 pm
Jason says that...

"Conwy County Borough Council Chief Executive Bryron Davies will by mutual agreement resign from his post with effect from 17th June 2011."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 17, 2011, 07:31:22 pm
It could never end any other way..... he will RAKE IT IN..... Its a disgrace.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 24, 2011, 01:24:22 pm
Stabbed Salford burglar John Bennell was on police bail

A burglar stabbed to death after an attempted break-in at a house in Salford, was on police bail for another suspected burglary, it has emerged.

John Leonard Bennell, 27, from Hyde, had been arrested by police in Tamworth, Staffs, earlier this month.

Householder Peter Flanagan, 57, who was arrested on suspicion of Mr Bennell's attempted murder remains in custody.

Mr Flanagan's 27-year-old son and his son's 21-year-old girlfriend have been released without charge.

Four masked men attempted to get into a house in Ethel Avenue before midnight on Wednesday.

Mr Bennell is believed to have been carried away by the other intruders as they fled, before being left in a road.

Police said Mr Bennell was found on Hospital Road in Pendlebury and died a short time later.

The three people with him at the time of the incident have yet to be traced, police said.

Ch Supt Kevin Mulligan, of Greater Manchester Police, has urged anyone who knows of their whereabouts, to contact detectives.


Two words...good riddance!  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2011, 02:35:04 pm
Wonder why four masked men attempted to get into the house?  Doesn't sound like your ordinary robbery, does it?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on June 24, 2011, 03:28:23 pm
It's what you call o FOURced entry!   L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 24, 2011, 03:36:33 pm
Wonder why four masked men attempted to get into the house?  Doesn't sound like your ordinary robbery, does it?
The dead man was already on bail for burglary, was he not?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on June 24, 2011, 06:00:42 pm
Householder Peter Flanagan, 57, who was arrested on suspicion of Mr Bennell's attempted murder remains in custody.

How can he be arrested for attempted murder if the victim was found stabbed to death?  ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2011, 06:39:19 pm
I wouldn't hesitate to act in a similar manner if anyone broke into my house...
Then I would sleep like a log immediately after.

I would expect nothing less if I broke into their house.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2011, 06:46:42 pm
Quote
The dead man was already on bail for burglary, was he not?

Indeed, but your average burglars operate solo, or in pairs. I suspect we'll hear more about this one in time.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 24, 2011, 06:48:39 pm
Agreed!  $good$  Householders should be able to do anything they like to defend their property, the law is nonsense in this case!  He should get a medal (as should Tony Martin!)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2011, 06:55:12 pm
Mail online:

Quote
Four men, wearing dark clothing and balaclavas, apparently tried to smash their way through the back door of the terraced house just before midnight on Wednesday.

It's interesting. Sounds more like some sort of revenge attack, rather than a simple burglary.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2011, 10:05:35 am
Councillor’s Colwyn Bay fears
Jul 14 2011
by Ian Hughes, North Wales Weekly News

A COLWYN Bay councillor has declared he no longer feels safe walking through the town in the daytime.
Bob Squire, who serves Old Colwyn, made the controversial comments at a full county council meeting last week.
“It is a troubling image,” he said. “I visited Lloyd’s Bank in the town and staff there told me that people no longer feel safe in the town during the day.
As I walked to the bank I saw one couple having a set-to in the street.
Just a little while down the road I saw another couple arguing. One man was talking to his boy, who asked something along the lines of ‘what is that?’, to which the man replied: ‘I don’t know and I don’t f****** care’. And this was just in a ten minute walk.
“People are afraid to walk through Colwyn Bay,” – before adding that he felt much the same way.

The statement was met with general disapproval from the rest of the council.
“You saw it but what did you do?” questioned Llandudno councillor Ronnie Hughes. “When you come out with statements like that, you are bringing down the rest of the authority.”
Chair of the council Brenda Taylor then stated: “I request that this conversation be continued outside the chamber.”

This is not the first time Cllr Squire has made controversial comments about the town he represents.
In January he claimed Colwyn Bay is being dragged down by “undesirables” moving from Rhyl.
He said the regeneration of Rhyl and the demolition of bedsit flats on the town’s seafront has caused a population shift, an in-migration of problem tenants which has boosted the demand for such accommodation in Colwyn Bay.
He also blamed the town’s drug problems on “outsiders” following a police raid in 2009.
Cllr Squire said at the time: “It doesn’t surprise me to find a drug factory anywhere in the Colwyn Bay area.
“We know there is quite an industry for drug dealing in this area. You only have to look around to notice individuals who are new to the area.”

He later voiced fears that seaside resorts are in danger of being turned into drug ghettos by organised criminals.
Cllr Squire levelled criticism at the way the grand old hotels and luxury houses of the past were turned over to multiple occupancy.
Bob Squire became a councillor in November 2003, having stood as an independent on a mandate to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour.
He says: “The aim was to address the area’s many problems regarding houses with multiple occupants.”

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/07/14/councillor-s-colwyn-bay-fears-55243-29047626/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2011/07/14/councillor-s-colwyn-bay-fears-55243-29047626/)

Cllr Squire is absolutely right - I see similar things on a regular basis in Colwyn Bay.  :( For councillors like Ronnie Hughes to just pretend the problem doesn't exist is ridiculous - he probably hasn't set foot in Colwyn Bay in years.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 15, 2011, 11:53:30 pm
I don't visit Colwyn Bay much, for similar reasons.... similar to why I don't like Rhyl.

Councillor Squire is entitled to his opinion, and should not be ushered outside and silenced.

Too many important problems are brushed aside and ignored, until its too late.
Despite colossal investment being pumped in, it may well already be too late for Colwyn Bay.

Massive investment was poured into Rhyl some years ago... what did it really achieve?

Six months ago Dave R and I met with a senior official at CCBC, he assured us that in Colwyn Bay, the whole re-structure was being managed in a 'joined up thinking' type way,  and that the lessons of Rhyl had been learned.

I am very doubtful of that.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 16, 2011, 07:34:37 am
Well, since the advent of the coalition government, their own figures show that crime has been rising steadily. Now, this phenomenon almost certainly has nothing to do with the government itself (although either of the two main parties would have had a field day had it happened to the other), but the general rise in reported crime is bound to affect the less well off areas, such as parts of Old Colwyn.

The hotel multiple occupancy argument is also relevant, but - short of knocking them all down and forcibly relocating the tenants - what do they do?

The bad language, of which he provides a fairly typical example, is interesting, however. I sometimes wonder if it's more the threat of danger, often through noisy and loutish behaviour, than the actual reality of such that alarms people.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2011, 01:35:31 pm
Just walked through Colwyn Bay; in the space of 5 minutes I saw a couple sitting in a prom shelter surrounded by bottles of beer, then 3 men sitting on the slipway with a case of beer. Oh, and a man walking along the road shouting at himself. Unless these problems are tackled, all the regeneration money being spent is not going to attract decent people back to the town.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 16, 2011, 04:26:32 pm
When one considers the long list of interests that Councillor PJE has, outside of his reponsibilities as a County and Town Councillor, it is a wonder he has time to sleep at nights, let alone do anything constructive for the town!  Apparently the list is available from the Freedom of Information site at www.whatdotheyknow.com (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com) in the Llandudno section and all Town Councillors' interests are listed.    WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 16, 2011, 04:50:40 pm
Just walked through Colwyn Bay; in the space of 5 minutes I saw a couple sitting in a prom shelter surrounded by bottles of beer, then 3 men sitting on the slipway with a case of beer. Oh, and a man walking along the road shouting at himself. Unless these problems are tackled, all the regeneration money being spent is not going to attract decent people back to the town.

Would the shelter be anywhere near the Rothesay Hotel Dave because I've seen that many times when I've walked the dog onto the beach down the nearby slipway?
When I was having a coffee on the banks of the Liffey in Dublin I witnessed two men walking past with cans of beer in their hands. What happened next was that a Garda policeman just took the cans away from them and walked a short distance before emptying the cans down the drain.  He then went back and gave them a ticket each.
Now that's what Policing should be about and it'll certainly encourage me to visit that beautiful city again.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 16, 2011, 04:55:45 pm
What did Councillor Ronnie Hughes expect Councillor Squires to do in those circumstances?   Would he has tackled the trouble makers I wonder!
Perhaps Ronnie is just staking his claim for leadership of CCBC?       :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 16, 2011, 06:30:40 pm
Perhaps Ronnie is just staking his claim for leadership of CCBC?       :o

What!  Against Ken Finch and his cronies?   He doesn't stand a chance!    It has to go to someone with a first class financial background - Hmmmm!  Or could that leave Finch out of the running?     _))*   _))*

Maybe the other double jointed Finch will put herself forward!   WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 16, 2011, 06:57:23 pm
List of Interests from just two Councillors, see 04.26 posting!

Cllr Terence Davies: Chardon Trustee (Llandudno Museum); Penrhynside Village
Hall; North Wales Play Assoc Rep; Llandudno Town Band Rep; Mostyn Gallery
Rep; Glanwydden School Governor; Marks & Spencer employee; Richard Owen
Scholarship Foundation Trustee; Llandudno Relief in Need Trustee;  Welsh Conservative Party; N.A.H.T. Life member; Johnson Endowment
Trustee.

Cllr Philip C Evans, JP: Conwy County Borough Councillor; North Wales Fire
Authority; Chardon Trust Chairman; Richard Owen Scholarship Foundation
Chairman; Llandudno Relief in Need Charity Chairman; occasional Consultancy
for Aaron & Partners Solicitors Chester; 9 Gwydyr Road (Half share); 3 Somerset
Street (quarter share); Victoria Club CYD Ltd unpaid Director; Arriva Trains Wales
Passenger Panel member; Llanrhos Parochial Church Council member; Llandudno
Historical Society member; Amicu retired member; Johnson Endowment Trustee;
Glas Cymru Cyf member; Lacors Director (appointed by LGA).
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 16, 2011, 08:06:25 pm
Just walked through Colwyn Bay; in the space of 5 minutes I saw a couple sitting in a prom shelter surrounded by bottles of beer, then 3 men sitting on the slipway with a case of beer. Oh, and a man walking along the road shouting at himself. Unless these problems are tackled, all the regeneration money being spent is not going to attract decent people back to the town.

So...if Dave and Hugo are seeing these things, and Bob Squire is commenting on them, what are the Police doing about it?
I am not, (and never will be) a police-basher, as I think they do a hard job extremely well, (usually) ... but this is illegal activity, happening all around them, and I never hear of it being clamped down on.
Instead, I witnessed a 'Hit Squad' of traffic wardens on Happy Valley Rd the other night, blitzing every parked vehicle they could with fines.
What the hell is going on?  Persecuting motorists, (and deterring tourism) ... and we are paying the overtime for this no doubt.

Its insanity, what harm are people doing parking for free on a half empty road in the evening?
The priorites are all wrong.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2011, 09:08:25 pm
So...if Dave and Hugo are seeing these things, and Bob Squire is commenting on them, what are the Police doing about it?

Now you mention it, i didn't see any police at all in Colwyn Bay, whether on foot or in cars.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 17, 2011, 08:48:49 am
Quote
I witnessed a 'Hit Squad' of traffic wardens on Happy Valley Rd the other night, blitzing every parked vehicle they could with fines.

Exactly where?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 17, 2011, 09:03:53 am
Probably at the Car Park and the marked parking areas on the road.   Nothing more that a cash extracting exercise at the expense of the motorist.   The majority of these cars will be people staying in The Grand.   The Parking Department has gone daft over recent years.

But put a woman in charge and this is what you'll get!   $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2011, 09:17:16 am
But put a woman in charge and this is what you'll get!   $angry$
You're going to get some grief for that comment, Yorkie!  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2011, 09:26:53 am
Quote
I witnessed a 'Hit Squad' of traffic wardens on Happy Valley Rd the other night, blitzing every parked vehicle they could with fines.

Exactly where?

The car parking area that faces the pier, and looks out to sea.... then thy moved on up to the roadside outside the Grand.

They did this in Conwy earlier this year... a very dirty trick in my opinion.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2011, 12:41:45 pm
Instead of hitting the honest motorist and possibly affecting the tourist trade why can't they have a blitz on the motorists driving without tax and insurance.
It's not rocket science in tracing them, after all everything is on a computer nowadays and is traceable.  You have the Registration of the vehicle there and also those cars that have a valid tax and insurance are also there so the computer will work out those cars not entitled to be on the road.
All you have to do then is sort out the potential cheats out by postal code and have the officers out in numbers and the job is done.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 17, 2011, 01:08:48 pm
But put a woman in charge and this is what you'll get!   $angry$
You're going to get some grief for that comment, Yorkie!  :o

Bring it on - the husband also works for CCBC!    Nepotism or what?      :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2011, 02:23:40 pm
Instead of hitting the honest motorist and possibly affecting the tourist trade why can't they have a blitz on the motorists driving without tax and insurance.
It's not rocket science in tracing them, after all everything is on a computer nowadays and is traceable.  You have the Registration of the vehicle there and also those cars that have a valid tax and insurance are also there so the computer will work out those cars not entitled to be on the road.
All you have to do then is sort out the potential cheats out by postal code and have the officers out in numbers and the job is done.

The ANPR van you see at the side of the road does just that. Many people think its a speed camera van but it's not - its actually reading everyone's number plate and checking that they are taxed and insured.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2011, 03:48:54 pm
They are very good Dave but will only check on cars going past where they are located.  A number of Police vehicles have the system installed too but in very limited numbers and again will only recognise the number plate if the vehicle has driven past.
The trouble there lies in the fact that many untaxed and uninsured vehicles will not pass these cameras and will  therefore escape unpunished.

Years ago I was talking to someone who was a prosecutor against people who were TV licence dodgers and during our conversation we discussed the TV Detector Van that used to come around town looking for these dodgers.   I suggested something to him using the computer systems available and he confided in me that they were already doing that and it had been very effective in the prosecution of those TV cheats.   The TV Detector Van was a visual and effective deterrent but the computer systen was even more effective in obtaining prosecutions.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 17, 2011, 05:12:28 pm
The ANPR van you see at the side of the road does just that. Many people think its a speed camera van but it's not - its actually reading everyone's number plate and checking that they are taxed and insured.

Try passing one at 10 mph over the limit and you will find that it is a speed detector.   I am refering to the Arrive Alive van which is the main one seen at the side of the road.  Many of the forces vehicles, especially the traffic cars are now fitted with ANPR and they do the majority of the Tax and Insurance work.  At the same time they also pick up known offenders (drug dealers or regular criminals) who own or drive the cars.

You need eyes in your ass nowadays or a good GPS with all the cameras on the database!   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on July 17, 2011, 09:39:23 pm
I think the Arrive Alive van is basically a mobile speed trap.
The ANPR vehicle is operated by the police and is usually accompanied by a number of police vehicles who wait either side of the van & pull over the vehicles that set off the ANPR alarm. As well as tax/insurance etc... I think it also reports if certain vehicles have 'markers' on it for being known to be involved in organised crime (drugs etc..) or disqualified drivers known to be still driving. They also keep a look out for cars stopping short & turning around to avoid the camera to avoid detection. Quite a good set up but obviously costly due to the manpower required, that's why some large city forces have set up Interceptor Units which have special vehicles fully equipped with ANPR out on patrol 24/7 as seen on many TV shows.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 18, 2011, 09:59:56 am
Quote
You need eyes in your ass nowadays

Must admit, we prefer the car.   :) :) :)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 18, 2011, 01:21:45 pm
I knew I should have used the spell checker!      L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 18, 2011, 03:42:39 pm
 Quite a good set up but obviously costly due to the manpower required, that's why some large city forces have set up Interceptor Units which have special vehicles fully equipped with ANPR out on patrol 24/7 as seen on many TV shows.
[/quote]

SDQ's explanation of the ANPR cameras is spot on and highlights the effectiveness of having these cameras but it does also expose the weakness in  the system.
If on the other hand the Police used their computer systems and arranged for a blitz on these Tax and Insurance dodgers then it would be all sorted in a quick space of time.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on July 18, 2011, 05:02:30 pm
Interceptor Units..............that sounds so American  ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on July 20, 2011, 04:19:27 am
Interceptor Units..............that sounds so American  ???

So does - You need eyes in your ass nowadays What happened to the good old British A***?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 20, 2011, 08:27:18 am
I knew I should have used the spell checker!      L0L

Dyslexia!    L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on July 20, 2011, 09:59:40 am
Interceptor Units..............that sounds so American  ???

So does - You need eyes in your ass nowadays What happened to the good old British a***?

Amazing, I type in "a***" and it gets automatically censored.

Another try......a-*-*-e  _))++
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 20, 2011, 10:02:43 am
A***

so it does, how about a**e

thats ok  L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 20, 2011, 08:02:09 pm
I tried A*****e and I won't know if it works until I press POST!    :D


It didn't!    L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 20, 2011, 11:06:07 pm
A***

so it does, how about a**e

thats ok  L0L

how odd, earlier I had A * * E which worked and now its censored  :o  it works with gaps  ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 22, 2011, 06:50:32 pm
Mail online:

Quote
Four men, wearing dark clothing and balaclavas, apparently tried to smash their way through the back door of the terraced house just before midnight on Wednesday.

It's interesting. Sounds more like some sort of revenge attack, rather than a simple burglary.

"Three men from Greater Manchester, aged between 23 and 27, have been charged with aggravated burglary.

Nazir Afzal, chief crown prosecutor for the North West, said: "I am satisfied that Peter Flanagan acted in self defence after being woken by noises downstairs in his house shortly before midnight.

"On investigating the disturbance he was confronted by intruders, one of whom was armed with a machete."

"People are entitled to use reasonable force in self-defence to defend themselves, their family and their property," he said.

"All the evidence indicates that in the frightening circumstances that he faced, Mr Flanagan did what he honestly and instinctively believed was necessary to protect himself and his home from intruders."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14248097 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14248097)

 $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 22, 2011, 07:03:40 pm
I'd be interested to know if Mr Flanagan has a criminal record.  I'm still suspicious about that one.  Most burglaries don't involve an entire gang, making enough noise to wake the dead, smashing their way into a property and before midnight.  Something decidedly odd.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 22, 2011, 10:24:09 pm
I'd be interested to know if Mr Flanagan has a criminal record.  I'm still suspicious about that one.  Most burglaries don't involve an entire gang, making enough noise to wake the dead, smashing their way into a property and before midnight.  Something decidedly odd.

even if he has got a record, he'd still want to defend himself, it's also possibe that the gang had the wrong address?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 23, 2011, 07:13:51 am
Indeed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 25, 2011, 12:21:14 am
This news story is about a guy who has spent most of the last decade in prison for persistently being naked.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14649394 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-14649394)
What does anyone on the Forum think about this?

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 04:12:19 am
Exposure to long shafts can be very traumatic for some people.  8)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 25, 2011, 08:50:39 am
Ha ha ... ''I think he wants everyone to see his point''   L0L L0L     (Here we go again)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on August 25, 2011, 10:27:03 am
http://www.fruitnut.net/HTML/305_The_Naked_Rambler.htm (http://www.fruitnut.net/HTML/305_The_Naked_Rambler.htm)

There is no law in Britain against public nudity. However, there are laws against indecent exposure -- which requires proof of intent to insult a woman -- or any behavior likely to cause "harassment, alarm or distress."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: crimemuseum on September 16, 2011, 09:20:07 pm
OMG what is that picture! That is so funny. Is that really a crime or punishment to do wear that in public? Haha

Derrick
Museum of Punishment (http://www.crimemuseum.org/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2011, 09:51:52 am


TWO shoplifters who tried to avoid security alarms by stuffing their loot in a bag lined with metal were caught out by keen eyed store staff.

Christina Power, 29, and mum-of-three Natalie Ann Stephenson, 23, claimed they got the bag from a man in a pub after running out of cash while visiting North Wales for a caravan holiday.

Yesterday the pair admitted stealing £681.75 worth of perfume from Debenhams on Parc Llandudno.

They also admitted going equipped for theft, at Llandudno Magistrates Court. They were both given 12 month community orders.

Prosecutor Diane Williams said member of staff Simon Welland saw them in the fragrance area, on September 10.

She said: “They appeared to be randomly selecting fragrances from the shelves. They started placing the items in a plastic Next bag.”

At one point the pair swapped bags. One then headed to the exit and the other went to select clothes.

The defendant who left carrying the stolen perfume was detained. In the Next bag, there was £681.75 worth of perfumes hidden inside.

The prosecutor added: “The lining was wrapped in brown tape to hold metal which prevented the security alarm from being activated.”

The prosecutor said: “Ms Stephenson said they had gone to Debenhams to steal perfume to sell for cash as their benefits had not come through.”

Solicitor Graham Parry, defending said the women did not come to North Wales specifically to steal, as the prosecution alleged, but for a caravan holiday.

They‘d been given the bag by a man in a pub, Mr Parry said, adding: “The degree of sophistication was caused by him.”

But Mr Parry said his clients accepted they were using the bag to “avoid detection”.

Power, of Mountford Court, Failsworth, Manchester, and Stephenson, of Armitage Grove, Little Hulton, Manchester also admitted breaching conditional discharges from an earlier offence.

They were each given a 12-month community order with Manchester Probation Service.

Debenhams plc declined to comment.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/10/18/shoplifters-used-metal-bag-to-avoid-security-alarm-at-debenhams-store-55578-29612292/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/10/18/shoplifters-used-metal-bag-to-avoid-security-alarm-at-debenhams-store-55578-29612292/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 28, 2011, 10:51:17 am

** 5,000 criminals avoid deportation **
More than 5,000 foreign criminals awaiting deportation remain in the UK, including almost 4,000 who are not in custody, says a report.
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-15467480 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-15467480)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 03, 2011, 10:23:46 am
Police are appealing for witnesses after an indecent assault in Conwy.

A 33-year-old woman was walking alone on Bangor Road in Conwy, between midnight and 1am on Sunday October 30 when she was approached by a man who proceeded to assault her. The woman managed to leave in the direction of Conwy town centre.

The man is described as being white, in his late 30's to 40. He was 5'9” tall, of slim build and had dark brown wavy hair, and wore a dark colored round crew cut short sleeved T-shirt and dark jeans.

Anyone who may have witnessed the incident or who may have seen the woman, who was dressed in black, walking towards Conwy is urged to contact DC Petra Grimes at St Asaph CID on 101 if in Wales; 0845 6071001 (Welsh line); 0845 6071002 (English line) or Crimestoppers anonymously on 0800 555111.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 05, 2011, 10:17:45 am
When reading this article, I'm not sure who is the worst scum... the asylum seeker, or the idiotic judge in this case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15596588 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15596588)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2011, 11:04:07 am
I read that article yesterday and couldn't believe  how stupid a nation we have become.  What was wrong in just putting him back on the boat he came from or flying him back to that country?
 :rage: :rage:


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 05, 2011, 12:35:38 pm
I'm also sick of seeing these anti capitalist protesters outside St Paul's, what a bunch of pot smoking idiots, they should have moved them away weeks ago!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 05, 2011, 02:52:19 pm
I'm also sick of seeing these anti capitalist protesters outside St Paul's, what a bunch of pot smoking idiots, they should have moved them away weeks ago!

I find them hilarious, watching them demonstrating against capitalism, then taking turns to queue for Starbucks Coffee and KFC takeaways whilst using Smartphones and ipods .
Did you also know that they aren't actually keeping a vigil? Most of them abandon the tents in the evening (most likely get Mummy to pick them up in the 4X4 Range Rover) sleep in their cosy beds ...then they come back to the site the next day.
Too much hardship involved in genuinely protesting these days.    Hilarious.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on November 05, 2011, 04:19:27 pm
Anyone for a camping protest at Bodlondeb?     $walesflag$ 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 08, 2011, 08:17:44 am
These people must qualify for the title of 'dumbest criminals of the week'...

Two sisters have gone on trial accused of trying to claim back £161m in VAT which they had never paid.

Andrea and Roberta Vaughan-Owen, of Colwyn Bay, also allegedly claimed tens of thousands of pounds in benefits to which they were not entitled.

Both are alleged to have claimed incapacity benefits and working tax credits at the same time, but expressed interest in a £315,000 Rolls Royce.

At Caernarfon Crown Court the sisters deny nine charges. The trial continues.

Paul Taylor, prosecuting, told the jury that the sisters lived "beyond the dreams of honest working people".

They shared a £400,000 home in Colwyn Bay, rented out a second property, had private health care, paid for private education for Andrea's children and expressed an interest in items such as a £315,000 Rolls Royce, the jury was told.

Mr Taylor said it was a case "of our times and for our times".

"A case of, if you want it, you can have it, without doing any work to earn it".

He alleged the sisters got money from anyone they could, including banks, insurance companies and the state.

In his opening remarks he detailed how both sisters claimed incapacity benefits and working tax credits at the same time.

Andrea Vaughan-Owen also claimed child tax credits, the court heard.

The 42-year-old former Post Office worker and Roberta Vaughan-Owen, 37, who once worked as a civilian for North Wales Police, had managed to get "tens of thousands of pounds to which they were not entitled," said Mr Taylor.

The court was told that it began with tax credits fraud, and there were mortgage and insurance frauds and the attempted VAT fiddle.

Mr Taylor said working tax credit for people with lower incomes was "particularly easy to cheat" and civil servants "inept".

"They didn't make any inquiries, they didn't ask any questions," he added.

He told the jury: "You may be shocked to hear that all you had to do was pick up the phone and get through to the tax credit helpline and say 'the situation is still the same - I'm still working' and the money carried on".

Both sisters deny furnishing false information by submitting a claim for a VAT refund of £161m in 2008, registering companies for VAT purposes and attempting to obtain invoices to substantiate a claim for a VAT repayment, insurance fraud, and being involved in fraudulent activity to obtain tax credit payments.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 08, 2011, 08:55:59 am
At least they can't be accused of not being ambitious!
If you are going to pull a scam for which a prison sentence might follow, you might as well make it a BIG one.

Talking of big, watching her wobbling into court made me wonder whether she had stashed 161 million pound coins under her clothing?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 08, 2011, 09:00:48 am
what a pair of muppets! Never upset the vat man :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 08, 2011, 09:32:52 am
I wonder how they arrived at the figure of £161m? If they had stuck to figures in the low millions, they would probably have got away with it. Most criminals end up getting greedy and it is their downfall.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on November 08, 2011, 09:36:21 am
Y'know it's all a matter of priority really £315k Rolls Royce or Liposuction.  In her case the answer is blatantly obvious.  Miiiiiaaaaw  :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 08, 2011, 09:40:26 am
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: suepp on November 08, 2011, 10:47:23 am
how on earth did they manage to get working tax credits when they weren't working? just shows how flawed the system is,

My regular statement that comes through every year since I stopped getting child tax credits, very helpfully tells me that I have been awarded the princely sum of £ 0.00  ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2011, 02:59:35 pm
That's disgusting and I'm not talking about the photo. I'm sorry to say it but I live not far from these people and although I don't know them personally I hope that they get the maximum prison sentence and a diet of bread and water!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on November 08, 2011, 03:04:02 pm
She might leave prison a size or two smaller if that was the case !
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Quiggs on November 08, 2011, 03:43:19 pm
Whilst on the subect of Crime. The kids had a bonfire on the Oval, which had continued smouldering. Last night someone thought it was a good idea to take some of the fence panels from the Cricket Club and re-ignite the fire, so more expense for the club to replace them, who are already struggling financially.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on November 08, 2011, 05:25:39 pm
There is a bloody good arguement for stopping all this messing about with bonfires and fireworks just to celebrate some arshole trying to blow up the seat of Democracy!    WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 08, 2011, 06:05:02 pm
There is a bloody good arguement for stopping all this messing about with bonfires and fireworks just to celebrate some arshole trying to blow up the seat of Democracy!    WWW

Hmm, I have some sympathy with the kids around here, (not the vandalising ones I hasten to add) ... because a small band of kids on the Orme had been collecting wood for weeks to have a bonfire on the spare land up here.
Then, after a further few nights of building the impressive looking bonfire, the Council came along the night before it was due to be lit and took the whole lot away!
A real shame, I like a nice bonfire, and some things are just traditional and appropriate parts of ones childhood.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: snowcap on November 08, 2011, 10:21:24 pm
some one must have complained for the council to get involved, was it in a dangerous place to the public?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 09, 2011, 09:01:42 am
The hilarity continues....


TWO sisters accused of a fraudulent £161 million VAT claim, are alleged to have enquired with Liverpool FC about advertising their businesses on hoardings at Anfield.

Andrea Vaughan-Owen, 42, and her sister Roberta, 37, from Colwyn Bay, wanted to obtain invoices for items that cost large sums of money in order to rack up a massive VAT rebate bill, a court heard.

It’s claimed the older of the two sisters had also inquired about a £3.5m country house, while the younger one, who can’t drive, tried to order a dozen Land Rovers from a Conwy dealership and a Rolls Royce Phantom worth more than £300,000.

They had also sought invoices from website developers and a security firm to present them to VAT officials for refunds, as they were under financial pressure to make mortgage and car payments, a jury at Caernarfon Crown Court was told.

Continuing his opening of the case, prosecutor Paul Taylor said the sisters, of Cwrt Bedw, Colwyn Bay, had “moved up a gear” when money from insurance and working tax credit fiddles was stopped.

“The solution to funding a lifestyle beyond the dreams of most honest working people was VAT fraud with a whopping claim for £161 million,” the barrister said.

He said the sisters set up companies and registered them with VAT officials and showed an interest in buying items which cost a lot of money in order to obtain a VAT refund.

In December 2008 they enquired with officials of Liverpool FC about the cost of advertising their recruitment agency on the electronic advertising boards around the pitch.

“This would have cost £75,000 for three minutes. In an e-mail the sisters said there was no limit to their requirements. It was a way to get an invoice to rack up their VAT bill,” he said.

Two claims were made, one for £140,000 and the other for £161 million.

“They took steps to defraud the public purse of what is a large amount of money, £140,000 but the final charge against them, making a claim of £161 million, makes the first claim look almost trivial. But there are many pieces of evidence that shows they really did expect to get this money,” Mr Taylor said.

He said money from a series of alleged insurance and working tax credit fiddles stopped in early 2008 and they had fallen into arrears with their mortgages and car payments. Repossession proceedings were started but they decided to borrow their way out of trouble said Mr Taylor.

In March, Roberta Vaughan-Owen is said to have offered nearly £700,000 for another house on the Cwrt Bedw estate, despite the asking price being only £475,000.

Mr Taylor said the sisters hoped to pay for this house with a £750,000 loan from a finance company. But they never provided evidence of their income and the loan was not granted.

Despite the car being subject of finance Andrea Vaughan-Owen tried to part exchange the vehicle for a new one in May 2008. In July she approached an estate agent and expressed interest in buying Plas Ty Coch, a country house near Caernarfon, which was on the market for £3.5m.

Andrea Vaughan-Owen, a former post office worker, and Roberta Vaughan-Owen, who once worked as a civilian for North Wales police, deny furnishing false information by submitting a claim for a VAT refund of £161 million in 2008, registering companies for VAT purposes and attempting to obtain invoices to substantiate a claim for a VAT repayment, insurance fraud, and being involved in fraudulent activity to obtain tax credit payments.

The trial continues.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Llechwedd on November 09, 2011, 12:18:37 pm
Will they be made to re-pay all the money they have stolen or will their assets be confiscated to reimburse the state.  If not, why not?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2011, 03:27:17 pm
Will they be made to re-pay all the money they have stolen or will their assets be confiscated to reimburse the state.  If not, why not?

You would hope that these processes would be automatic together with a lengthy custodial sentence because they have  stolen the taxpayers money, but it's not always the case.
This case is very high profile so you would expect a confiscation order so as to deter any other crook.
In the case of being made to repay the debt, I was reading about one such order when the crook had to pay a set figure per month but they would have been well over 100 years old before it was cleared.     :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 14, 2011, 09:13:37 pm
This article about Sir Jimmy caught my eye..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-15717221 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-15717221)

Apart from the fact that its so sad that such precautions are necessary these day, I know that he requested to be buried at a 45 degree angle, so he could ''see the sea in Scarborough''
So... even if that were possible, how is he going to see through a concrete slab?
Poignant to say the least.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: dwsi on November 14, 2011, 09:23:10 pm
Jim'll Fix It to be revived - Telegraph http://tgr.ph/st9TD7 (http://tgr.ph/st9TD7)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on November 14, 2011, 09:24:49 pm
Just read the article now Fester.  It is sad when you think about it.  The worlds gone mad.  :(
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 14, 2011, 09:35:46 pm
In recent times we have lost Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, and then it was Steve Jobs.   

Now that Jimmy Savile has shuffled off, it means that we have no cash, no jobs, no hope... plus we have no one to fix it for us!

 :( :( :(

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 14, 2011, 09:42:24 pm
Hilarious, mate...  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on November 14, 2011, 09:44:47 pm
Dear dear......
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on November 14, 2011, 10:12:50 pm
fester did you know  that his sister worked in your kiosk, well in the early 70s
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 14, 2011, 10:18:11 pm
I did not know this!
How's about that then Guys and Gals.....    what did the Kiosk sell back then Norm?

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on November 15, 2011, 08:56:19 am
Met him in 1979 when he was a volunteer porter at Leeds General Infirmary. He wheeled my Dad to theatre for his heart op. Nice fellow, but strange !
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 15, 2011, 09:23:52 am
A SECURITY firm boss was asked to provide an invoice for £400,000 by two sisters accused of a £161m VAT fraud, a court heard.

Daniel Dilks said the request for a bill from Andrea Vaughan-Owen, 42, and sister Roberta, 37, was the largest he had ever received.

The jury in the trial of the sisters, of Upper Colwyn Bay, were told Mr Dilks, 32, was called in after Andrea’s ex-partner had put hypodermic needles under her front door.

They asked him to send them an invoice for £400,000 in addition to £70,000 in VAT, Caernarfon Crown Court heard. The jury was also told that Roberta said she’d had problems filling in Department for Work and Pensions forms, and asked the DWP to pay for dyslexia tests for her and Andrea in 2003. Roberta also accused an agency which helps disabled people set up businesses of discrimination, after it refused her £300.

Prosecutor Paul Taylor said Andrea’s former partner was leaving the needles in 2008 and so the sisters called in Mr Dilks. Mr Dilks, who ran a company called Closed Protection Services, told the court he was asked to provide an invoice for 12 monthly fees of £33,600 each, making a total of £403,200, to be sent to the sisters on one single invoice.

He also said there were up to 20 phone calls a day “mainly” from Robbie (Roberta) to his landline and mobile number during his dealings with them, and it became “annoying” so he changed his phone number.

He only agreed to supply separate invoices with “Specimen” on them.

Mr Dilks was also called on by the sisters to use another of his companies to provide £750,000 worth of bridging loans to buy property.

Under cross examination by Andrea’s barrister Lee Karu QC, Mr Dilks said he helped people in the “sub prime market”, who may not get loans from high street banks, to secure loans.

Earlier, the court was told Roberta had struggled to fill in forms for the DWP for claims in 2003 and wanted them to pay for the dyslexia tests.

Prosecutor Mr Taylor read out a letter to the DWP from Roberta, quoting her as saying: “I don’t understand your letter. I have severe difficulties completing forms which take me twice as long as ordinary people. I trust that you are disability aware. I thought you would have twigged by now why it’s taking so long.

“Can you pay for a test for me for dyslexia please so I can start to take some simple instructions? The same applies for my sister (Andrea Vaughan-Owen).”

On another occasion, Mr Taylor said the sisters had approached Broker Cymru for help to invest in a business they said they were setting up. But then Roberta accused Broker Cymru – which helps people eligible for the New Deal for Disabled People programme to gain secure employment – of discriminating against her because she was disabled.

Roberta told Broker Cymru on June 24 2003: “I have been showing signs of dyspraxia or dyslexia. I can prove that (one employee) said, ‘If you can’t sustain (the business) with all your disabilities why should we invest?’ I have a witness – my sister. If an employer said that to an employee they could be taken to a tribunal. Please send me an adviser who is empathetic towards disability.”

The sisters deny furnishing false information by submitting a claim for a VAT refund of £161m in 2008, registering companies for VAT purposes and attempting to obtain invoices to substantiate a claim for a VAT repayment, insurance fraud and being involved in fraudulent activity to obtain tax credit payments. The case continues.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/11/15/north-wales-sisters-asked-for-400k-invoice-for-home-security-jury-told-55578-29777050/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/11/15/north-wales-sisters-asked-for-400k-invoice-for-home-security-jury-told-55578-29777050/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: suepp on November 15, 2011, 11:37:12 am
In recent times we have lost Johnny Cash, Bob Hope, and then it was Steve Jobs.   

Now that Jimmy Savile has shuffled off, it means that we have no cash, no jobs, no hope... plus we have no one to fix it for us!

 :( :( :(
let's hope Ed Balls remains in good health  :P
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 15, 2011, 06:18:02 pm
 L0L L0L :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: TheMedz on November 24, 2011, 05:20:40 pm
The noise you can hear in the background of this posting is my blood boiling!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-15853088 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-15853088)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2011, 05:45:26 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-15963320 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-15963320)

The two sisters were found guilty and have had a prison sentence.  HMRC are to commence confiscation orders against them both.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 30, 2011, 06:43:29 pm
I wonder if they have a cell door wide enough to fit through!  :laugh:

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 30, 2011, 07:59:56 pm
The pair, described as Laurel and Hardy figures by their defence, were called "serial fraudsters and shameless liars" by the judge at Caernarfon Crown Court.

The trial heard the pair lived "beyond the dreams of honest working people".


This was the text from the news item, but I disagree... Laurel and Hardy was a very fat person and a very thin person making us laugh.
Here we have an incredibly FAT person, and a slightly less obese person, making us very angry!

3 and a half years is not enough, they will be out in 18 months, will they suddenly 'go straight' and start contributing to society, methinks not.  10 years I say!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 07, 2011, 10:02:51 am
Colwyn Bay paramedic tells of nightmare A55 attack

A PARAMEDIC spent almost a year off the road after a “nightmare” attack by a drunk woman, as he tried to treat her in the back of an ambulance.

Craig Hodges and John Preston were forced to pull over on the A55 when Kathleen Gilbert started lashing out as they tried to take her to Glan Clwyd hospital.

Mr Hodges was left with an injury that may be permanent, it emerged after Gilbert, 47, of Cae Clyd, Llandudno, was jailed for 40 weeks yesterday.

The ambulance had been called after reports she was having a fit outside Llandudno Junction railway station, two days before last Christmas.


On the way to hospital she released herself from straps andŠ kicked out at Mr Hodges,Šcausing the ambulance to stop, and when the driver Mr Preston appeared she tried to strike him in the face, hitting his chest instead, prosecutor Ian Evans told a court at Caernarfon crown court.ŠGilbert admitted causing actual bodily harm to Mr Hodges and assaulting Mr Preston.

ŠPassing sentence, Judge Merfyn Hughes QC said Gilbert had kicked Mr Hodges twice, once on the right elbow, before punching him several more times.

The blow to the elbow had affected the use of his arm and there was some possibility of a permanent effect on the use of his hand.

The judge had read the victims’ personal statements in which the paramedics stated “they had not experienced such violence in all the years of their service.”

In a statement Mr Hodges called her attack on him “deliberate and forceful.” He’d been off work for ten months because a blow to the elbow had affected the use of his hand.

In his eight and a half years in the ambulance service it was his worst experience. “He felt angry because he was trying to help her but got the feeling she was trying to cause him physical harm,” said Mr Evans.Š

He was still suffering from injuries to his right arm, and had been told his employers might end his contract because of the limited use of his arm.

After the case, Colwyn Bay emergency medical technician Mr Hodges told the Daily Post: “It’s been an absolute nightmare for me mentally and physically, and also for my immediate family. I am still going to have problems with my right arm for the next 12 to 18 months until the scar tissue heals.”

The Welsh Ambulance Service has a zero tolerance policy against violence and aggression.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/12/07/colwyn-bay-paramedic-tells-of-nightmare-a55-attack-55578-29908582/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/12/07/colwyn-bay-paramedic-tells-of-nightmare-a55-attack-55578-29908582/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 12, 2011, 11:16:35 am
A sad story, showing once again the scum that infests certain parts of our society.

Young mother Emma Jones 'killed for complaining about loud music'
Emma Jones was believed to have asked neighbours to turn down their music before she was fatally stabbed.

Miss Jones, whose five-year-old son Llyr has learning difficulties, was injured in an argument with neighbours after she confronted them at 2am on Saturday. Paramedics were unable to save her and she died from massive blood loss.

Neighbours in the village of Penygroes in North Wales, said she had crossed the road from her house to a block of flats to ask those at a party to turn down the music. One said: "There was an almighty row. When the ambulance got to the flat there was nothing paramedics could do." Miss Jones had told those at the party they were "keeping half the neighbourhood awake."

Another villager said: "To be stabbed to death for simply asking someone to turn down the music at a house party is shocking and awful."You would think that any decent person would have apologised and abided by the request especially at two in the morning."She did such a good job with her son as he suffers from severe learning difficulties – she was totally dedicated to him."Everyone is in total shock over this tragic death."

Miss Jones's son was believed to be staying with his grandparents. Jean Owen, who lives nearby, said: "It's a terrible thing to happen in a village like this." She added: "She was a lovely young lady."

A 23-year-old woman from Llanllyfni was charged with murder last night and was due to appear at Carnarvon magistrates' court today. A North Wales Police statement said: "Police can now confirm that Emma died as a result of a stab wound she received."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8950444/Young-mother-Emma-Jones-killed-for-complaining-about-loud-music.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8950444/Young-mother-Emma-Jones-killed-for-complaining-about-loud-music.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on January 15, 2012, 11:21:44 am
http://merovee.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/jimll-fix-it-jimmy-savile-dead/ (http://merovee.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/jimll-fix-it-jimmy-savile-dead/)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083783/Jimmy-Saville-child-sex-claims-investigated-BBC-days-stars-death--program-axed.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083783/Jimmy-Saville-child-sex-claims-investigated-BBC-days-stars-death--program-axed.html)

I find your reference to mental institutions offensive since the 60s agencies have been trying to remove the stigma of people suffering mental health problems.
People like you that are small minded do nothing to help this cause and you should be ashamed of yourself be aware of the disability discrimination bill my friend
Code: [Select]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_Discrimination_Act_1995
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on January 15, 2012, 11:24:09 am
Everyone is entitled to their point of view and is welcome to put it forward on here. However, the laws of Libel still apply to Internet Forums and we cannot allow any unsubstantiated allegation to remain, as we are ultimately liable for what is posted on here.  :)

I think born2run should pay attention to this post
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 15, 2012, 11:34:53 am
In this country, thankfully, people are still INNOCENT until pronounced guilty.

The guy isn't alive to defend himself, so back off.

The only FACT that is provable about Jimmy Savile is that he dedicated much of his life to raising millions of £££ for charity.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: martin on January 15, 2012, 11:36:35 am
 <:<:<:<I give up, some people will not be told, just leave it and move on. <:<:<:<
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: martin on January 15, 2012, 11:38:27 am
I agree Fester.  My last post was in reply to Pentan, you posted while I was doing it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on January 15, 2012, 11:41:21 am
Back off to were m8? I made my point will say no more
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on January 15, 2012, 11:46:38 am
Everyone is entitled to their point of view and is welcome to put it forward on here. However, the laws of Libel still apply to Internet Forums and we cannot allow any unsubstantiated allegation to remain, as we are ultimately liable for what is posted on here.  :)

I think born2run should pay attention to this post

I don't think I should. I was merely pointing out that your fixation with this deceased celebrity is very strange, almost bordering on fixation. Nothing has been proved, but you still referred to him as a 'Kiddie Fiddler' this is libel, me questioning your sanity is simply my reaction to your strange posts, which are not getting any more reasoned to be honest.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on January 15, 2012, 12:09:02 pm
I think the same about anybody that takes advantage of innocence.
having children/grandchildren/great-grandchildren how could I stand by and not
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on January 15, 2012, 01:03:13 pm
That's fair enough then. I hope Jimmy Saville stays well away from them
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 27, 2012, 11:31:24 am
Driver banned for squeezing 11 people into his Audi A4 saloon

Officers flagged down Zoltan Lakatos, 38, and discovered four children in the boot of his Audi A4.

The two girls aged 11 and five and two boys of 10 and seven were lying on top of each other in the uninsured vehicle, magistrates heard.

On further inspection, police found two women and a man, a child of three and a nine-month-old baby sitting on the back seat.
Another woman was sitting in the front alongside Lakatos, who was at the wheel, bringing the total headcount in the car to 11.

When officers stressed the dangers of having so many people in his car, Lakatos replied: “It doesn’t matter, they are only children.”

Lakatos, who did not appear in court, was convicted of using a motor vehicle to carry passengers in such a way as to create a danger of injury to them, and of driving without insurance.

The Hungarian, who lives in Belgrave, Leicestershire, was fined a total of £1,325 and banned from driving for a year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9043375/Driver-banned-for-squeezing-11-people-into-his-Audi-A4-saloon.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9043375/Driver-banned-for-squeezing-11-people-into-his-Audi-A4-saloon.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 27, 2012, 11:49:50 am
Were you tempted to drop that onto the scum thread?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on January 27, 2012, 11:55:30 am
I'm wondering how much in benefits this pillock received?  $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 27, 2012, 12:38:27 pm
Watching Crimewatch now seems to be more like a quick tour of Europe and its Peoples!    ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: martin on January 27, 2012, 02:17:15 pm
Watching Crimewatch now seems to be more like a quick tour of Europe and its Peoples!    ;)
_))* ;D _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 27, 2012, 03:44:25 pm
I'm wondering how much in benefits this pillock received?  $angry$

I'm wondering if the Police seized his car too as he wasn't insured.
Title: Man's inhumanity
Post by: martin on January 27, 2012, 07:19:50 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092722/Pregnant-orang-utan-hugs-daughter-bounty-hunters-Borneo-in.html#comments (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092722/Pregnant-orang-utan-hugs-daughter-bounty-hunters-Borneo-in.html#comments)

I have just read this article in the on-line Daily Mail, I don't think anyone could read it without being moved.
Title: Re: Man's inhumanity
Post by: born2run on January 27, 2012, 09:37:42 pm
 &shake&
Title: Re: Man's inhumanity
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2012, 12:50:21 am
The latest example of what is happening in the world due to the surplus human population.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 31, 2012, 09:35:55 am
THE managing director of a project set up to help ex-forces veterans has appeared in court accused of fraud and theft.

Christopher O'Neill, 50, of Princes Drive, Colwyn Bay, has been charged with a £125,000 grant fraud in 2010 and theft of £74,800 from Forces for Good between March and November last year.

He is also accused of acquiring criminal property at Llandudno – £74,800.

Yesterday the former military policeman was remanded on bail by magistrates at Llandudno with a condition that he lives in Cheshire.

There will be a hearing next week to commit the case for trial at the crown court.

Prosecutor Julie Hughes said: “It's a particularly complicated case.”

The Forces for Good website describes it as a social enterprise company working from three locations in North Wales – Llandudno, Anglesey and Wrexham – helping ex-armed forces personnel and their families to services they require, and offering mentoring and support systems.

It operates a hotel in Llandudno as a way of starting to fund expenses and support work and a nine-house supported housing project on Anglesey.

It also has a small touring caravan site and day activity centre “to provide a safe comfortable relaxed environment for respite and recuperation”.

O’Neill has been an active campaigner to raise awareness of veterans issues .

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/31/colwyn-bay-ex-forces-group-boss-accused-of-fraud-55578-30231577/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/01/31/colwyn-bay-ex-forces-group-boss-accused-of-fraud-55578-30231577/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on February 01, 2012, 01:57:51 pm
These four have been convicted of plotting to bomb the London Stock Exchange.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16833032 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16833032)

Who would have thought it?   They look like such nice lads.  8)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 01, 2012, 02:28:23 pm
Thank goodness these idots were caught in time!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: dwsi on February 07, 2012, 07:12:00 pm
CCTV police officer 'chased himself' after being mistaken for burglar - Telegraph http://tgr.ph/w2wC9c (http://tgr.ph/w2wC9c)

 _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Paddy on February 07, 2012, 09:08:55 pm
CCTV police officer 'chased himself' after being mistaken for burglar - Telegraph http://tgr.ph/w2wC9c (http://tgr.ph/w2wC9c)

 _))*

Classic.  _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on February 12, 2012, 04:25:40 pm
I was invited to a Garden Party in London and will always remember the date, 21st July 2005.  We were dressed up ready to go and were waiting for a taxi to take us to the party when someone approached me and advised me of the failed bomb attempt in the city.
It was a strange feeling because earlier in the day we had travelled by bus to Knightsbridge, completely unaware of the bomb attempts.
Security in the Palace didn't seem any different to what you would expect but in the grounds you actually felt quite safe despite all the sirens etc that were going off outside.
In the evening though it was quite different as we were dining al fresco in a side street in Kensington knowing that in the next street Police had stopped a double decker bus and were checking it for a suspected bomb.  It was unnerving as you had visions of the bomb going off and debris coming over, so the next day we had a taxi to take us to the Train Station rather than risk public transport.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on February 14, 2012, 11:15:23 am
Yet more scum...

A DRUNK who shouted “I’ll kill you” at a nurse who was taking his blood has been jailed.

Michael Jones, 56, subjected staff at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd’s accident and emergency unit to a torrent of abuse.

Patients were said to have been intimidated, and it emerged it was the second time he’s admitted being abusive to staff at the unit.

Jailing him for 12 weeks, District Judge Andrew Shaw said his behaviour had been “intolerable” and that only an immediate custodial sentence was appropriate.

Last month Jones pleaded guilty at Prestatyn Magistrates’ Court to using threatening or abusive words and behaviour at the Bodelwyddan hospital on October 18.

The court heard that staff and other patients in the A&E department were intimidated by his language and behaviour.

While a nurse was taking a blood sample from him Jones told her: “I’ll f*****g see you again and I’ll kill you.”

Security staff were called and an elderly woman in a nearby cubicle said she was scared of what Jones might do.

Another patient told him to stop swearing but he continued to be aggressive and abusive.

He also made an offensive remark after being asked to provide a urine sample.

One experienced sister said she found his comments and behaviour “degrading and disgusting”.

The court was told that the hospital authorities had a “zero tolerance” policy towards such behaviour, and while it was accepted that Jones might need hospital treatment again and might even be drunk, he should not be allowed to behave in such a way.

In November Jones, of Wellington Road, Rhyl, admitted a similar offence following an earlier incident in the A&E unit in September. Roger Thomas, defending, said the incident had been a “wake-up call” for Jones who now realised he needed help for his alcohol problem “He does appear to be motivated to do something about it,” he said.

Mr Thomas said his client, who appeared in court on crutches, had been back to the hospital several times since October for treatment for a broken leg and no further incidents had occurred.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/02/14/drunk-who-shouted-i-ll-kill-you-at-ysbyty-glan-clwyd-nurse-is-jailed-55578-30325686/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/02/14/drunk-who-shouted-i-ll-kill-you-at-ysbyty-glan-clwyd-nurse-is-jailed-55578-30325686/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on February 14, 2012, 11:19:49 am
Quote
The court was told that the hospital authorities had a “zero tolerance” policy towards such behaviour

Perhaps they need to consider refusing treatment?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 05, 2012, 08:42:12 am
A 23-YEAR-old man went on a drunken rampage after downing a liqueur, whisky and Guinness mixture known as “Irish Car Bomb,” a court heard yesterday.

Dominic Lockett, unemployed, of Bryn Felin, Conwy, admitted five offences of criminal damage after smashing windscreens and denting five cars at the town.

Prosecutor Tracey Willingham at Llandudno Magistrates Court said Lockett had been with a friend at a Conwy pub last September and they were extremely drunk when they left.

In the early hours police received 999 calls about the vandalism. Members of the public detained Lockett and another man but the defendant ran from police when they arrived. He was found again half an hour later. Lockett said he couldn’t remember the events because of drink but was shocked and embarrassed.

Miss Willingham said one car owner was heavily pregnant at the time and the damage to her Fiat, with an estimated repair bill of more than £1,000, had caused huge inconvenience. She couldn’t afford to repair it. Another victim, a mother-of-two, was thinking of selling her home at Conwy to protect her children from such anti-social behaviour.

Defence solicitor Graham Parry said Lockett, who had originally faced eleven charges, acted out of character. He was remorseful and knew some of the victims. He used to work in a pub. Mr Parry added: “He does very much regret being involved.” The other charges were dropped. Magistrates imposed a six weeks suspended jail term and he must do 100 hours unpaid work, observe a six weeks 7pm-7am curfew, and pay £2,328 compensation and £100 costs.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/05/conwy-man-23-went-on-drunken-rampage-55578-30697058/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/05/conwy-man-23-went-on-drunken-rampage-55578-30697058/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 05, 2012, 04:13:09 pm

Defence solicitor Graham Parry said Lockett, who had originally faced eleven charges, acted out of character. He was remorseful and knew some of the victims. He used to work in a pub. Mr Parry added: “He does very much regret being involved.” The other charges were dropped. Magistrates imposed a six weeks suspended jail term and he must do 100 hours unpaid work, observe a six weeks 7pm-7am curfew, and pay £2,328 compensation and £100 costs.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/05/conwy-man-23-went-on-drunken-rampage-55578-30697058/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/05/conwy-man-23-went-on-drunken-rampage-55578-30697058/)
[/quote]

If he has acted out of character, then I presume that this is his first appearance in Court??    But how is he going to pay the compensation and costs if he is not working?
Probably at £10.00 per week,  but who actually pays it in the end..... Muggins the taxpayer.   
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on April 05, 2012, 04:39:45 pm
This is one of the lads responsible for the damage done to cars on Rosemary Lane last year.  For some reason the other lad who WAS responsible too got away with it....bl**dy joke...no evidence on him apparently.  Gezzy had to court twice, once in Llandudno and the last time in Prestatyn, on both occasions he had to have the day off work.  :rage:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 06, 2012, 08:17:38 am
If he has acted out of character, then I presume that this is his first appearance in Court??    But how is he going to pay the compensation and costs if he is not working?
Probably at £10.00 per week,  but who actually pays it in the end..... Muggins the taxpayer.

Hugo, it will be deducted from his Job Seekers Allowance.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2012, 01:33:21 pm
If he has acted out of character, then I presume that this is his first appearance in Court??    But how is he going to pay the compensation and costs if he is not working?
Probably at £10.00 per week,  but who actually pays it in the end..... Muggins the taxpayer.

Hugo, it will be deducted from his Job Seekers Allowance.
Perhaps, but who pays for the Job Seekers Allowance Bri,  us of course Muggins.   Let's hope that the curfew is adhered to at least, because there are people out there who will notice these things.   
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 11, 2012, 08:44:00 am
People like this woman are the true definition of scum:

Serial thief finally jailed after 207 offences laughs off her sentence as 'cushty'

Heroin addict Caroline Pattinson, 34, had previously been spared prison on numerous occasions, despite her lengthy record.
But she received a two-and-a-half year jail term after targeting a 72-year-old grandmother in her home.

However as Pattinson - who began offending aged 14 and has at least one child in care - was taken down from the dock she turned to the court and said: "Cushty, easily done."

She had previously been given community orders and suspended sentences for her string of crimes and had only ever served time in prison while on remand.

Left at liberty, she amassed a huge record that includes 108 theft convictions, 42 offences against police officers, 26 matters of fraud and dishonesty, five public order counts, four crimes against property, three offences against the person, two drug offences and 17 miscellaneous non-recordable offences.

Newcastle Crown Court heard that for her latest crime, Pattinson had conned her way into the tower block home of pensioner Lilian Wilde last December by pretending that she was visiting her aunt. She told her victim she was feeling dizzy after a bout of pneumonia and was invited in to the two-bedroom flat in Newcastle-upon-Tyne.

Mrs Wilde went to the kitchen to make her a coffee, but Pattinson repaid the compassion of a stranger by sneaking into the lounge and snatching her purse containing £40 and a supermarket voucher, before slipping away. The pensioner said it had been "traumatic", adding: "I had been told she had done this before but I did not know it was so bad."

Judge Roger Thorn told Pattinson - who pleaded guilty to theft: "This was planned with some degree of cunning.
"There must be a significant sentence to send a message that the elderly will be protected when they are at home and protected from people like you who seem to be without morals."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9196988/Serial-thief-finally-jailed-after-207-offences-laughs-off-her-sentence-as-cushty.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9196988/Serial-thief-finally-jailed-after-207-offences-laughs-off-her-sentence-as-cushty.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 12, 2012, 12:13:24 am
Ha... I wish I had been the Judge at that moment.

I would have said, 'too easy eh?, OK sweetheart, lets double it... and keep on doubling it until you turn pale!''

Now that's Cushty!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 14, 2012, 12:38:00 pm
Ha... I wish I had been the Judge at that moment.

I would have said, 'too easy eh?, OK sweetheart, lets double it... and keep on doubling it until you turn pale!''

Now that's Cushty!

Couldn't agree more Fester, what she was showing was contempt of Court.   Society is better off without scum like that roaming the streets.
Whatever happened to the " three strikes and you're out policy that was being banded about by some tough talking politicians?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on April 14, 2012, 02:18:27 pm
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/14/cars-attacked-flat-torched-and-people-evacuated-in-llandudno-siege-55578-30757531/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/04/14/cars-attacked-flat-torched-and-people-evacuated-in-llandudno-siege-55578-30757531/)

Goodness only knows what is going to happen on our doorsteps next.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 14, 2012, 02:52:33 pm
Nasty. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Quiggs on April 14, 2012, 03:13:37 pm
earlier this week a pensioner was drawing money out of an A.T.M. in Mostyn St.  ( Lloyd's ) I think, when the money was snatched from him, the perpetrator ran off, pursued by some bystanders and detained further up the road, whilst others phoned the Police. The Police retained the money for evidence.   $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on April 14, 2012, 03:40:13 pm
One piece of good advice is never use an ATM outside the building!

Personally I have never used an ATM and use my Credit Card for most of my purchases even for as little as a fiver.   I pay in full each month and at the end of each year the CC Company credit me with a sum equivalent to a percentage of all my purchases.   There is no card fee so it is win win!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on April 14, 2012, 03:51:46 pm
None of the ATMs I use are inside a building.
As far as using a credit card, some places charge a fee and some won't accept a credit card for very large purchases because of charges to them by the credit card company so that isn't a perfect system either.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on April 14, 2012, 04:03:38 pm
None of the ATMs I use are inside a building.
As far as using a credit card, some places charge a fee and some won't accept a credit card for very large purchases because of charges to them by the credit card company so that isn't a perfect system either.

But, I do not use my CC if they charge, so still no cost.  When I last changed my car I paid the balance using my CC which not only gave me the CC Company cash back, but I also had the use of the capital for a few weeks in a savings account.  All the little bits of interest mount up!   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on April 14, 2012, 04:27:01 pm
I tried to buy a car from a VAG main dealer on my credit card & he said the company charged him too much for large transactions so he would only accept a fraction as a deposit & I had to pay the balance on my debit card. Mind you I had squeezed a very good deal out of him, maybe the card charges would have tipped the deal into a non-profit situation?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 14, 2012, 05:08:18 pm
A debit card transaction attracts a flat rate charge of around 20p for the retailer. A credit card transaction attracts a fee based on a percentage of the entire amount, can be 2% or more. Big difference!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: snowcap on April 15, 2012, 12:06:34 am
i know this may not be the right thread for what i have to say but the woman i am going to tell you about was scum to me. I was down at angel bay with my grandson and his nan on Friday morning hoping to get a sighting of the seals. We got there about 11ish and as i had never seen a seal in the wild at my ripe old age i was delighted to see 6 of them on the beach and another two in the water near by. To get a better look at them i got my grandson to go back to the car to get my binoculars. While he was away this moron of a young lady decided to take her two young lads, (about 6 and 7 ) down on to the beach so they could run around and chase the seals into the sea. I was raving and gave her an ear bashing so she called the boys back to her were they sat on the beach for 5 minutes and then decided to climb back up. By then Mrs. Snowcap had carmed me down as i was livid. should she be on the scum list or am i over reacting.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on April 15, 2012, 08:49:43 am
I would have done the same.-- Ranted at her that is !
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Jack on April 15, 2012, 09:03:13 am
There is a sign at the top of the cliff erected by Mostyn Estates kindly requesting that people do not go down on to that beach and not to disturb the seals.  I imagine the majority of people have heeded the notice but it only takes one idiot to spoil it for everyone else, one can only imagine that if she is that irresponsible as to let her feral children chase wild animals then she can't read either (probably a blessing she didn't have a dog too!).  This just illustrates the pressures on our wildlife from humans and urbanisation and as the population continues to increase these pressures are going to worsen squeezing our native wildlife to the periphery only being found in specialist nature reserves.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: snowcap on April 15, 2012, 03:07:47 pm
she may have gotten hold of the sign in question to help her down the embankment, because that is were she made her decent, i thought they were just going down to get a little bit closer,
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 16, 2012, 12:50:29 am
There is a pressing need to reduce the surplus human population.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on April 16, 2012, 07:54:54 pm
There is a pressing need to reduce the surplus human population.

I take it that you are not volunteering?     L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 16, 2012, 09:05:01 pm
In essence Yorkie, I have no more right to live than any other of the 7 billion humans that inhabit (infest??) this planet.

However, obviously I would rather a different process were adopted to sort the problem.

Firstly, cut down drastically on the number of NEW arrivals coming in to the world.

Secondly, despatch some of those who persistently cause serious or violent crime.

I'm volunteering for that job.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 16, 2012, 10:23:08 pm
Not the right topic for it..but think about the recent round of news regarding water shortages. With the population increasing, this is a problem that can only get worse. We see more and more new houses built all the time in the local area, all of them will need water for washing, cooking etc. No new reservoirs have been built or are planned to be built. How long before we are faced with water shortages locally? Surely it's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 17, 2012, 08:18:09 am
Quote
Secondly, despatch some of those who persistently cause serious or violent crime

Tempting to start with this bloke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik), presumably?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 17, 2012, 09:49:05 am
Indeed Ian, Well, he made quite a start himself didn't he?.... but his criteria was twisted.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on April 17, 2012, 08:20:10 pm
Not the right topic for it..but think about the recent round of news regarding water shortages. With the population increasing, this is a problem that can only get worse. We see more and more new houses built all the time in the local area, all of them will need water for washing, cooking etc. No new reservoirs have been built or are planned to be built. How long before we are faced with water shortages locally? Surely it's only a matter of time.

To save water we could always revert to childhood days when we only had one bath a week, in the old tin tub in front of the fire!   Those were the days!    _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 17, 2012, 11:41:34 pm
I remember being given my bath in the pot sink in the kitchen!

Before any smart ass adds anything, I must have been about 3 years old.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: mull on April 19, 2012, 10:02:11 am
Plenty of water up here in Scotland.
Trouble is who will pay to import it ?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on April 19, 2012, 11:58:39 am
As we are an island, governments in the past should have thought, and done something to set up some large desalination plants.   ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 19, 2012, 12:40:09 pm
As we are an island, governments in the past should have thought, and done something to set up some large desalination plants.   ZXZ

Back in the Sixties my Grandfather used to say that and now it could be done using energy from solar panels. My Grandfather also used to talk about seawater having a lot of gold particles in it in suspension. Must be worth looking into?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 03, 2012, 09:35:48 am
A MAN who kicked his 14 weeks pregnant girlfriend to the ground was grabbed by a passerby, dragged across a road and forced to apologise, a court heard yesterday.

Michael Ineson, 25, of Clifton Rise, Abergele, was kicked by the man who said to him “You don’t hit a woman”, magistrates at Llandudno were told.

Ineson, who had subjected the 18-year-old victim Danielle Jones to “years of violence” according to her mother, was convicted of common assault and threatening behaviour after a trial .

He received a two-year community order with a programme requirement, supervision and 80 hours unpaid work.


He must also pay £100 costs but no restraining order was made because of the victim’s wishes.

Defence solicitor Graham Parry said she wanted to continue their relationship of three-and-a-half years. “He would like to move in with Miss Jones today if possible. She has a new flat,” the solicitor said.

Mr Parry said the attack in Conwy Road, Llandudno, followed an argument about a lighter.

Prosecutor Rhian Jackson said the teenager had been with her mother when Ineson was verbally abusive and threw a bag in the road.

He’d kicked Danielle Jones’s legs causing her to fall. The shocked youngster covered her stomach as if to protect the baby, and a car stopped.

A man then grabbed the defendant.

Christine Jones took her daughter to the nearby police station to report the assault but afterwards Ineson threatened her.

”He’s subjected her daughter to years of violence,” the prosecutor alleged.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/05/03/abergele-man-kicked-pregnant-girlfriend-55578-30890322/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/05/03/abergele-man-kicked-pregnant-girlfriend-55578-30890322/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 09, 2012, 08:17:04 pm
Utter vermin.... and interesting how many of them are illegally in the UK in the first place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 09, 2012, 08:26:24 pm
....and just when I thought things couldn't be worse;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18001694 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-18001694)

I despair sometimes, I really do.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 10, 2012, 10:03:56 am
Another nutter:


A FAMILY was harassed by a man who said he believed there was black magic in their home and he wanted to save them.

Keith Powell, whose face is covered in tattoos, frightened his victims when he repeatedly visited the grounds of their secluded home, took fruit off trees and generally regarded the place as his own.

His behaviour was initially seen as eccentric. He would ring the bell and give the impression he was showing a friend around the grounds, Mold Crown Court heard yesterday.

On one occasion he was found sitting in a car at the back of the property and when asked what he was doing he said it was a spaceship and he was having the tyres changed.
  :laugh:
On another occasion he said that he was tidying up and added “I am here for God”.

Twelve months of harassment culminated in a burglary when he went in through a window claiming he had gone in to prevent a flood.

Police found him coming out of the window with keys, a calculator and coins which he had stolen from inside, said prosecutor Anna Pope.

Powell, 44, of Beach Road, Old Colwyn, admitted harassment and burglary at the isolated property.

He was given a 28-week prison sentence, suspended for 18 months, placed on supervision, and sent on a drug rehabilitation course.

A restraining order was made that he must not go within 100 yards of the burgled property or approach the family who occupied it.

Elen Owen, defending, said he was now off drugs and had set up a support group to help other addicts kick the habit.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/05/10/old-colwyn-family-harassed-by-man-who-said-there-was-black-magic-at-their-home-55578-30936032/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/05/10/old-colwyn-family-harassed-by-man-who-said-there-was-black-magic-at-their-home-55578-30936032/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 10, 2012, 12:21:33 pm
Utter vermin.... and interesting how many of them are illegally in the UK in the first place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17993003)

It's a point I was thinking about too.   There was no mention of deportation in the papers but if any of them were not born in the UK then kick them out. We can do without their type as we have enough scum here anyway without adding more.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: dwsi on May 10, 2012, 02:08:21 pm
RHYL: SCUMBAG CAPITAL OF BRITAIN http://bit.ly/LogxFP (http://bit.ly/LogxFP)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 13, 2012, 05:46:17 pm
£150K  Claim cheat jailed

A jaguar driving benefit fraudster was told that he was a "parasite" as he was jailed for 18 months on Friday.
Bert Mooney 65,  milked up to £150K in handouts for more than  a decade.
He created two fictitious identities and used addresses around the UK to get disability and housing funds.
Mooney drove his Jaguar between the homes in London, Rhyl and Hulme in Manchester.

He was only caught after a traffic warden noticed his London parking permit was registered in Wales, sparking an official probe.  At Manchester Crown Court Mooney admitted false accounting and Judge Martin Rudland said " you were a parasite clinging to and milking the public purse for over a decade"

Why didn't the Judge make a confiscation order to go with the sentence or order him to repay the money with a further 18 months inside in default of payment?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 19, 2012, 01:07:45 am
This piece of sh#t, starts his 35 year prison sentence today.. A vile and murderous individual.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18115360 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18115360)

Another immigrant I notice... this time from Turkey.  Strange isn't it.

I sincerely hope that he meets his match in a British prison, and he finds out what it feels like to be that poor 84 year old victim who's life he savagely snuffed out.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on May 19, 2012, 06:36:23 am
If the authorities had dealt with him more severely in one of his 18 previous convictions he wouldn't have been able to commit either murders, he would heve been behind bars or preferably back in Turkey! The legal system in Britain is as much to blame in cases like this as all the signs were there that he shouldn't be out on the streets in the first case.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 19, 2012, 07:00:07 am
They spend too much time trying to catch speeding motorists and not enough time on the real crimes! $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 30, 2012, 01:24:51 pm
I was just going to my car which was parked in Tesco's car park when a smartly dressed middle aged lady drove into a car parking space next but one to mine.
She parked the car perfectly and then got out and went to do her shopping.
The car was a brand new golden coloured Jaguar and one of the nicest vehicles we had seen for many years.
 After she went we admired the car but then noticed that some scumbag had keyed all along the driver's side of the vehicle. 
What possesses these mindless morons to do such an act of blatant and pointless vandalism?   Why can't they just admire the vehicle and work hard so that they too can buy one?
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 30, 2012, 01:39:16 pm
It comes down to the British disease of jealousy, I'm afraid.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 30, 2012, 04:31:05 pm
I've never understood jealousy, envy, some people see what others have and instead of thinking that they can work to have one someday they have to damage it or steal it! They have strange minds sadly!  I'm always very careful where I leave any of my cars, especially the Jag!  $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 31, 2012, 08:42:54 am
Oh dear, my old friend is in trouble again...  &shake&

Llandudno man jailed for abusing Olympic torch crowds

Richard Wyn Davies, 40, of Abbey Road, Llandudno, who has a drink problem, admitted breaching an ASBO at the town.

Magistrates' chairman Toby Prosser told him at Llandudno: "During a unique event for many people, with children and members of the public present, regrettably your actions spoiled it for them.

“The offence is so serious a non-custodial sentence can’t be justified.”

Prosecutor Julia Galston said Davies had been on the promenade at Craig y Don and a steward informed police about him.

“The area was packed with locals, visitors and many schoolchildren. Officers spoke to Mr Davies.

“He was under the influence of alcohol, a bottle of cider was close by him.

“He’s breached his ASBO on numerous occasions.”

Defence solicitor Graham Parry said a rehabilitation placement was needed for Davies.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 31, 2012, 09:41:26 am
Any idea what he actually did THIS time Dave?    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 31, 2012, 09:48:44 am
Probably a chorus or two of 'Welcome to F**king Wales"...  &shake&  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 07, 2012, 01:31:28 am
As I warned on this Forum many months ago..... an open admission from a Chief Constable that the cuts in policing HAS caused a rise in crime.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-18341410 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-18341410)

Apart from the obvious false economy aspect, the government are guilty of causing unnecessary human suffering by this uncivilised and short-sighted approach.   &shake& &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on June 07, 2012, 10:49:05 am
As I warned on this Forum many months ago..... an open admission from a Chief Constable that the cuts in policing HAS caused a rise in crime.
   &shake& &shake&

I don't think it is so much a reduction in numbers of Police Officers but more the correct and best deployment of those we have.     $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: rhos.rover on July 26, 2012, 10:13:23 pm
Perhaps this is not the most cheerful of first postings, but I’ve got to start somewhere, and I would be pleased to hear others views are on today’s happenings …

I was walking through a park area of old Colwyn, about lunchtime today, and saw a group of delightful children and a few adults drinking beer on a bench. After finishing each drink, they threw the bottle onto the path, smashing it. The bench was surrounded by shattered glass, and I guess the grass around it was too. We are talking about thirty mini bottles.

Not fancying having a bottle thrown at me, I reversed my direction just as two Council workers turned up. They were far from impressed. I stood behind the entrance to watch the fun as some coppers turned up within two minuets of their arrival, clearly called prior to their arrival. They didn’t look too impressed either.
From where I stood, I could hear each of the t**ts questions answer with a belligerent “f**k off!” to every inquiry. Children, teenagers, and the two adults all answered the same way.

How nice, I thought, these must be truly delightful people to know and live with. I do hope they are just passing through on the way to a mass suicide.

One lad, I’m guessing nineteen or twenty, was particularly foul-mouthed and from where I was watching, seemed to become very upset when the copper tried to question him. I was distracted by his very young girlfriend, dressed like a fancy-dress prostitute (fifteen if a day, and surely a crime in its self!) who was screaming at the police to let him go; as he was indeed an upstanding member of the community and was being unfairly treated by Mr. Plod.

He was nicked as he tried to headbutt a Copper and lead away from his admiring and beer soaked companions.

The party was over, the kids dispersed with an overheard “those wan**r can clean up”, as they gestured at the Council workers. I guess their parents were all taxpayers and funded the State and its workers at its highest rate.

I lingered long enough to wait until all the delightful gang were gone, and I continued my way past the Council workers who were beginning to pick the glass up. I paused to commiserate the mess of glass and abuse they had endured.

“Almost every day” said one, “believe me, it’s every other day, somewhere around here.”  On inquiry, I was informed that all glass and abuse lobbing, were locals from an area between Colwyn Bay and Llandulas. How heart warming!

So, as I unusually drink an alcoholic drink on a work night, in a mild state of depression, I offer these points for your reply.

1)   Why do we put up with this scum ruining our area? Why don’t we do something other than voting for Government after Government that lie to us regarding Law and Order? Who cares?
2)   Isn’t this a time that we should be protecting the Earth from ‘Global Warming’ and find ‘Green Alternatives’ to industrial solutions? I hear this all the time, and I’m sure that natural, organic materials should help us all. Such as fertiliser for plants and a reduction in Oxygen theft. Think about it. How sad would you really be?
3)   I hate bleeding-heart do-gooders. They are as responsible for our country becoming a dirty toilet as much as the filth that causes the problems. Should we shuffle them over a cliff too?
4)   Where can I find enough piano wire, stools and lampposts to solve our easily fixed problems regarding ‘unsociable behaviour?’   

Should you not care to take a view, I suggest you occupy your mind with telephone voting for a singing Jesus or some such worthwhile distraction as you fortify your homes, as several MPs and members of our local Council has informed me that due to the ‘necessity’ to clear the filth from inner Cities, it has resulted in thousands of such f**kers being bussed our way in the near feature...

Good night and good luck.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: wrex on July 26, 2012, 11:00:34 pm
Main problem seems to be the EEC,we have always been pretty liberal,but with the EEC its impossible.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 26, 2012, 11:09:00 pm
Sadly, you see those sort of parasites everywhere these days. Utter vermin, they never work and spend their days high on alcohol or drugs. Lefties will always have some hand wringing excuses for the behaviour of these sort of people, but those same lefties will always be sure to live in a nice a nice area far away from the scum we're talking about.  :roll:

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on July 26, 2012, 11:21:20 pm
I think you'll find most of the problems of our broken society are caused by the evolution of the policies introduced by that witch Margaret bloody Thatcher not the 'Lefties' you refer to!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on July 27, 2012, 12:03:25 am
They make your blood boil and I just wouldn't stand for it.  The way society is at the moment all these scum bags get away with their behavior towards the police because they know damn well that the police have to grin and bear it through fear of being prosecuted or jeopardising the case their dealing with.  Faced with someone who will give them a hiding it's a different matter.  Many times I have dealt with these morons who think they can treat your pub anyway they wish and every time they have been given a dustpan and brush or a mop and believe me they clear up after themselves.  I have said it before and I'll say it again more often than not these wastes of space do not even come from round here.  :rage: :rage:

Ps welcome Rhos.rover  :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian48 on July 27, 2012, 07:24:24 am
SDQ- I think you can see the beginnings of this before Maggie came to power. I think the 70s were when things really started to go down hill and you started to see behaviour like this starting (though on a far level than today), certainly in the cities.

Quite a bit of the groundwork was laid in the late 60s at a policy, educational and law and order level, but didn't really have much of an effect as despite the image of the 'swinging 60s', society in general was still very, very conservative in many aspects. It was only in the early/mid 70s that behaviour, morals and standards started to go downhill.

Watching Dominic Sandford's recent history of the 70s, with lots of stats and contemporary footage from that period really reminded me how coarse some people started to become at about that time, though in places like Llandudno that maybe was less evident at that time.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 27, 2012, 07:38:35 am
I'd better not comment on this, I'm having enough trouble with the Olympic thread! _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 27, 2012, 10:09:29 am
Rhos.Rover:  an excellent first posting, BTW, and I hope you don't mind that I've moved it into an already existing  topic.

Quote
1)   Why do we put up with this scum ruining our area? Why don’t we do something other than voting for Government after Government that lie to us regarding Law and Order? Who cares?

I suspect everyone cares, but what ought to be done? I suspect it's been the relentless deterioration in family life, coupled with an increasing tendency to demand 'rights' as opposed to accepting 'responsibility' that's at the root of things, and this can be traced back to the end of the first world war.

Quote
2)   Isn’t this a time that we should be protecting the Earth from ‘Global Warming’ and find ‘Green Alternatives’ to industrial solutions? I hear this all the time, and I’m sure that natural, organic materials should help us all. Such as fertiliser for plants and a reduction in Oxygen theft. Think about it. How sad would you really be?

This point seems something of an aside, but - interestingly - a lot of problems of this sort could be avoided if glass were eliminated in the alcohol trade.

Quote
3)   I hate bleeding-heart do-gooders. They are as responsible for our country becoming a dirty toilet as much as the filth that causes the problems. Should we shuffle them over a cliff too?

I think you'd have to be more precise about what you mean. And here's something to consider: if someone has a dog, which they purposely deprive of affection, beat every day with a baseball bat, make sleep outside in all weathers and deprive it of food and water, do you put the dog down when it starts behaving badly? It was the labour government, under TB, which was the first administration in History, to argue for exceptionally early intervention in clearly identified problem families. The plans were shouted down, long and hard, by the Daily Mail and other right-wing papers.

This is one of those problems which almost everyone will agree exists but on which almost no one will agree as to what should be done.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 27, 2012, 11:32:34 am
Rhos.point:  an excellent first posting, BTW, and I hope you don't mind that I've moved it into an already existing  topic.


I think you mean rhos.rover - better try that autism test again!   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 27, 2012, 03:28:35 pm
Oops! Thanks, Yorkie :-))
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 28, 2012, 01:58:00 am
I have a very clear idea what needs to be done to sort this problem out.
In fact I outlined the answer to Dave R just the other night.

Sadly, where respect is lacking, only contempt replaces it... and I believe that 'fear' needs to be the alternative.
In my opinion it is clearly a case of strong decision making and clear management based on some transparent rules .
At the risk of being labelled a total fascist, let me explain.

Firstly you take every current crime listed in the statute books and categorise them into 5 bands.

Minor,  minor/medium,  medium.  medium/major,   major.
Then attribute, 1 point for minor,  5 points for medium.... etc... up to 10 points for the major ones.
Thus, along with the usual fine or prison sentence, the offender accumulates points.

Then.... (here we go)... decree that once set number of points is reached, say 10 or 15 .... the individual is euthanased.
Yes, done away with.... gone....!

It would cut down on crime, it would rid the world of the the most evil types, and help with scarce resources and the surplus population.

Many would cry fascist, or radical.... but radical change has been seen (for the worse)... and radical steps are needed to reverse it.  Thats what we all want don't we?

One thing for sure, as the habitual criminal edges towards 10 or 15 points, they will have a choice to make.
They can't say they weren't warned!!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 29, 2012, 07:07:18 pm
 :o :o Fester did the King's Arms fiasco cause you to have a bit of a meltdown!

I don't know where to start with this one!

I'll ask some questions

Where would drug taking be on your "hit" list? - because even if it was only worth a few points or so. Your state would have killed off the likes of Jagger, Clapton, Richards and even your hero Lemmy  &shake&

What is to stop somebody on 14 points - going mental and killing everyone because they have absolutely nothing to lose, because the next time they get a parking ticket that point is going to earn them a swift beheading!

Not sure this is one of your better ideasto be honest Fester :P


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 29, 2012, 07:39:10 pm
I think the point Fester was trying to make was that we need much more effective deterrents.  Present system of fines and incarceration in a five star hotel at the pleasure of Her Majesty is totally useless!    Z**

Punishments nowadays do not seem to reflect the seriousness of the crime, too many slaps on the wrist and pleas of poor childhood, and deprivation.    :rage:

As in The Mikado by G & S, "Let the punishment fit the crime!"   Take a life , loose yours!   WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 29, 2012, 07:52:46 pm
I think the point Fester was trying to make was that we need much more effective deterrents.  Present system of fines and incarceration in a five star hotel at the pleasure of Her Majesty is totally useless!    Z**

Punishments nowadays do not seem to reflect the seriousness of the crime, too many slaps on the wrist and pleas of poor childhood, and deprivation.    :rage:

As in The Mikado by G & S, "Let the punishment fit the crime!"   Take a life , loose yours!   WWW

"Take a life, loose yours" Or as the Americans do it, "unless you're rich enough to get a decent lawyer"  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 29, 2012, 08:29:42 pm

As in The Mikado by G & S, "Let the punishment fit the crime!"   Take a life , loose yours!   WWW

"Take a life, loose yours" Or as the Americans do it, "unless you're rich enough to get a decent lawyer"  :laugh:

All trials are judged by the evidence presented, not by whom it is presented!   
If there is something wrong with the present Rules of Evidence then let them be revised.  :D

Also if you can't afford a decent lawyer - don't commit crime, is probably the answer for the Yanks.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 29, 2012, 10:18:34 pm
Thanks Yorkie, but actually I'll answer B2R's questions very directly and succinctly.
.... and because I believe in what I have said with great conviction, I will answer ANY questions on the subject.

Firstly,  Drug taking will feature wherever the 'powers that be' decide it features.... maybe 1 point, maybe 2... that will be up to competent people.

Secondly,  if Mick Jagger et al had been aware of their points racking up, they might have sought help for their 'problem' earlier.
It might also have prevented drugs being glorified and prevented thousands of gullible rock fans from taking the same course.

As concerns your last point, I can't see why a person on 14 points would suddenly decide to kill everyone.
It seems that people (on rare occasions) take those extreme actions anyway, (as in Norway or Colorado) ...without having the death penalty as a deterrent.

Sorry B2R, I have an answer for anything .... no matter how unpalatable you might find them.

Anyone who doesn't think that these measures are needed doesn't understand the urgency of the situation the world finds itself in.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 30, 2012, 08:50:45 am
Quote
Firstly,  Drug taking will feature wherever the 'powers that be' decide it features.... maybe 1 point, maybe 2... that will be up to competent people.

There's a very big problem there; the PTB aren't competent to decide about drug taking, and those that are find the PTB don't  listen to them.  There's a significant amount of evidence about this, but the ACMD (Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs) lost many of its members, who resigned over this very fact in 2010. If we're to have a policy on drug taking, who decides what that policy should be and what criteria should they employ? 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on July 30, 2012, 09:00:15 am

SDQ- I think you can see the beginnings of this before Maggie came to power. I think the 70s were when things really started to go down hill and you started to see behaviour like this starting (though on a far level than today), certainly in the cities.

Quite a bit of the groundwork was laid in the late 60s at a policy, educational and law and order level, but didn't really have much of an effect as despite the image of the 'swinging 60s', society in general was still very, very conservative in many aspects. It was only in the early/mid 70s that behaviour, morals and standards started to go downhill.

Watching Dominic Sandford's recent history of the 70s, with lots of stats and contemporary footage from that period really reminded me how coarse some people started to become at about that time, though in places like Llandudno that maybe was less evident at that time.


I can’t agree with your thought train on this 1 Ian in the 60s up to the 80s we did not have wanabee gangsters like we have today because they knew if they stepped out of line they would get a good slapping, basically they are cowards and bullies whose favourite saying is you can’t touch me
This state of affairs started in the 80s when teachers had their rights taken away it progressed to seeing  kids in infant classes hitting out at teachers and wrecking class rooms with no fear of any reprisals.
1 incident springs to mind in the early 90s 3 18 year olds were in my road drunk swearing and causing mayhem  I cut the off in the next road and beat the crap out of them never saw them again
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 30, 2012, 10:52:02 am
The UK government drug policy is interesting, based - as it appears to be - on hearsay and misinformation.  In 2010, the ACMD locked horns with the Government on this issue.  Here's what transpired (It's long, but I've emboldened the crucial bits)

Professor David Nutt of the University of Bristol was Chairman of the ACMD until being relieved of his post on 30 October 2009 after criticising politicians for "distorting" and "devaluing" research evidence in the debate over illicit drugs.[18] David Nutt founded the Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs on 15 January 2010. The goal of his new committee is to complement and eventually supersede the ACMD by providing independent advice that is untainted by government interference.[19]

In February 2009, the government was accused by Professor Nutt of making a political decision with regard to drug classification in rejecting the scientific advice to downgrade ecstasy from a class A drug. The ACMD report on ecstasy, based on a 12-month study of 4,000 academic papers, concluded that it is not as dangerous as other class A drugs such as heroin and cocaine, and should be downgraded to class B. The advice was not followed.[20] Jacqui Smith, then Home Secretary, was also widely criticised by the scientific community for bullying Professor David Nutt into apologising for his comments that, in the course of a normal year, more people die from falling off horses than from taking ecstasy.[21] Professor Nutt was sacked by Jacqui Smith's successor as Home Secretary Alan Johnson; Johnson saying "It is important that the government's messages on drugs are clear and as an advisor you do nothing to undermine public understanding of them. I cannot have public confusion between scientific advice and policy and have therefore lost confidence in your ability to advise me as Chair of the ACMD."[22]

In his October 2009 paper (based on a lecture given in July 2009) Nutt had repeated his familiar view that illicit drugs should be classified according to the actual evidence of the harm they cause and pointed out that alcohol and tobacco caused more harm than LSD, ecstasy and cannabis. Alcohol should come fifth behind cocaine, heroin, barbiturates and methadone, and tobacco should rank ninth, ahead of cannabis, LSD and ecstasy, he said. He also argued that smoking cannabis created only a "relatively small risk" of psychotic illness.[23]

Explaining his sacking of Nutt, Alan Johnson wrote in a letter to The Guardian, that "He was asked to go because he cannot be both a government advisor and a campaigner against government policy. [...] As for his comments about horse riding being more dangerous than ecstasy, which you quote with such reverence, it is of course a political rather than a scientific point."[24] Responding in The Times, Professor Nutt said:
“    I gave a lecture on the assessment of drug harms and how these relate to the legislation controlling drugs. According to Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, some contents of this lecture meant I had crossed the line from science to policy and so he sacked me. I do not know which comments were beyond the line or, indeed, where the line was [...] [25]    ”

In the wake of Nutt's dismissal, Dr Les King, a part-time advisor to the Department of Health, and the senior chemist on the ACMD, resigned from the body.[26] His resignation was soon followed by that of Marion Walker, Clinical Director of Berkshire Healthcare NHS Foundation Trust's substance misuse service, and the Royal Pharmaceutical Society's representative on the ACMD.[27]

The Guardian revealed that Alan Johnson ordered what was described as a 'snap review' of the 40-strong ACMD in October 2009. This, it was said, would assess whether the body is "discharging the functions" that it was set up to deliver and decide if it still represented value for money for the public. The review was to be conducted by David Omand.[28] Within hours of The Guardian revealing this, an article was published online by The Times arguing that Nutt's controversial lecture actually conformed to government guidelines throughout.[29] The report of the review was published in February 2011.[30]

On November 10, 2009 three further members of the Council resigned following a meeting with Alan Johnson. They were: Dr John Marsden, Dr Ian Ragan and Dr Simon Campbell.[31] A sixth member, Dr Polly Taylor, resigned in March 2010, shortly before the decision to make the legal high, mephedrone illegal.[32] On April 1, 2010 Eric Carlin also resigned after the announcement that mephedrone would be made illegal, saying that the decision by the Home Secretary was "unduly based on media and political pressure".[33] He also stated "We had little or no discussion about how our recommendation to classify this drug would be likely to impact on young people's behaviour. As well as being extremely unhappy with how the ACMD operates, I am not prepared to continue to be part of a body which, as its main activity, works to facilitate the potential criminalisation of increasing numbers of young people."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on July 30, 2012, 07:08:37 pm
Nutt is a nutter meow meow is lethal I think his Scientific evidence is flawed
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 30, 2012, 10:15:47 pm
Unfortunately we have got sidetracked away from the main point.... i.e. that something must be done about the appalling crime situation and lack of accountability, (and the over-arching issues of lack or resources and over population)

I'm afraid that the issue of who is competent to decide on drugs is just detail, and of little consequence compared to the overall principle.

The questions of 'who', 'what' , 'when' are just details to be agreed upon.... and then communicated VERY clearly to the population, so that no one can claim 'oh we didn't realise the consequences'

Scumbags are rife, and they just need sorting out, I think the vast majority are agreed on that.





Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 31, 2012, 08:57:15 am
Quote
I'm afraid that the issue of who is competent to decide on drugs is just detail, and of little consequence compared to the overall principle.

 On the contrary, I suspect criteria are at the very core of criminality, Fester;  you cannot assume someone is guilty of a criminal offence unless the criteria for said offence has been spelt out in excruciating detail, other wise the defence will thrive on exculpation.

Quote
Scumbags are rife, and they just need sorting out, I think the vast majority are agreed on that

Low level criminality issues, such as public order offences seem to have reignited this debate, and most of those seem to be caused by alcohol or mental illness. To 'sort them out' you'd need to define exactly what penalties were needed for what offences. It's very simple to talk at length about 'what needs to be done' and what you'd do to solve the situation, but it has been tried before.  In the mid-eighteenth century, almost any public order infraction was punished severely and immediately, in most cases.  Yet they continued, unabated, and crime then was far worse than now.

Quote
Unfortunately we have got sidetracked away from the main point

But didn't you say

Quote
Drug taking will feature wherever the 'powers that be' decide it features.... maybe 1 point, maybe 2... that will be up to competent people.

which seems it's pretty central to the point.  Also, you did say

Quote
I will answer ANY questions on the subject.
   WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on July 31, 2012, 09:21:58 am
Quote
Low level criminality issues, such as public order offences seem to have reignited this debate, and most of those seem to be caused by alcohol or mental illness
The true fact about any crime statistic no police presence , lack of respect  even if we had a 2 year jail term for public order offences  they would not care it’s just another badge to add to their wanabee gangster image

Out of 1,564 people convicted for homicide in England and Wales between April 1996 and April 1999, 164 (10 per cent) were found to have had symptoms of mental health problems at the time of the offence. A later study looking at homicides committed between January 1997 and December 2005 found that the same proportion, 10 per cent (510 of 5,189), were by individuals known to have had mental health problems at the time of the offence.
In 2009, the total population in England and Wales aged 16 or over was just over 43 million. It has been estimated that about one in six of the adult population will have a significant mental health problem at any one time, which amounts to more than 7 million people. Given this number and the 50–70 cases of homicide a year involving people known to have a mental health problem at the time of the murder, clearly the statistics data do not support the sensationalised media coverage about the danger that people with mental health problems present to the community.
The majority of violent crimes and homicides are committed by people who do not have mental health problems. In fact, 95 per cent of homicides are committed by people who have not been diagnosed with a mental health problem

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 31, 2012, 09:36:32 am
Low level criminality issues, such as public order offences seem to have reignited this debate
The problem is that these offences are regarded as low level, when in fact they can prove a serious deterrent to greater usage of public transport, particularly at night.

In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 31, 2012, 10:58:23 am
I agree.  So I think what we have to ask ourselves is whether this is a UK problem or is it wider?  Does the same sort of thing happen throughout Europe, for instance? If not, what's different about their society and culture?

Quote
...in fact they can prove a serious deterrent to greater usage of public transport, particularly at night.

I suspect that basically what you're saying is that young adult males see getting drunk as something to which they aspire, with all the associated anti-social consequences.  That's probably what we have to change.  Raising the legal drinking age might be a start.  Making it illegal for pubs and off licences to serve anyone under 25 might also be helpful.  The trouble is that both strategies only treat symptoms, and not the problem. When we live in a society that denigrates achievement, where the self-same people think it's good to send derogatory texts to our highest achievers (and don't forget Tm Daley had to move schools after Bejing, such was the scale of the hostility from other boys at the Comprehensive he attended until then), what do we do to make achievement something to be chased, and not denigrated;  to make success something to which all should aspire and not ridicule?

As I've said before, no easy answers, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 31, 2012, 08:54:52 pm
I will indeed always answer any question on this topic, (and this solution of mine)... or perhaps I should say 'respond' instead, as I may not have the definitive detailed answer to each point raised.

I would strongly dispute that there is less crime now than in the 1800's, for two main reasons.

1. The population now is significantly higher.
2, In the 1800's people were imprisoned for crimes when they had done very little (an apple from a market stall, or minor debts) Whereas these days, an enormous amount of crimes are not even recorder, because people know that there is no point reporting them.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 31, 2012, 10:04:30 pm
Quote
I would strongly dispute that there is less crime now than in the 1800's, for two main reasons.

From Homicide rates across the ages, by Professor Peter King — University of Leicester
"For example, in Europe in the Middle Ages murder prosecution rates were twenty times greater than they are now. The long-term decline in recorded homicides which was a major feature of the period from the fourteenth to the late nineteenth centuries has encouraged some historians to argue that the modernisation and the urbanisation process that occurred across Europe in this period was been the key factor behind this drastic reduction in levels of inter-personal violence."

But inevitably, a great deal comes down to how crime is defined. And that brings us neatly back to the drug debate.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 31, 2012, 10:09:32 pm
Good evening Ian,

I don't buy that quote for one minute.

You see, in the middle ages they would simply execute the most 'convenient' person .... case solved!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 01, 2012, 08:23:38 am
They did;  and with that policy, no doubt, many innocent folk paid the price.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 01, 2012, 11:52:23 pm
I always make sure my 'potentially' life changing Lotto numbers are on.... because you just never know.

However, I have always been a little wary of shop workers checking my ticket, and telling me I haven't won... and then for THEM to claim my prize.
Call it being untrusting, and even paranoid, but take a look at the news story here,  it HAS happened, to the tune of a million quid! To an 80 year old couple.
I am now going to be even more vigilant and check every draw myself, online.   I urge you all to do the same.

I was disgusted to see this article, but I shouldn't have been surprised.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19080214 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-19080214)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 02, 2012, 12:04:36 am
They did;  and with that policy, no doubt, many innocent folk paid the price.

Indeed Ian, and no matter how hard-line I might appear on this topic, I would never, ever want that to happen.

I am very keen on justice, and despise injustice.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on August 02, 2012, 12:19:43 am
If you actually play the lottery online Camelot checks your ticket for you. If you win they send you an e-mail to inform you & automatically pay the winnings into your account. You can then either leave it there for future games or if it's more substantial transfer it direct to your bank account. If you play the same numbers you can even set it up as a direct debit so you never have to worry about missing a draw through illness or forgetting to go to the shop.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 02, 2012, 06:53:02 am
I've played "on-line" since the facility started doing 8 weeks at a time.   You are paid any prize direct and are also reminded when the tickets run out.  Not one the big one yet but live in hope!   D)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 02, 2012, 08:39:50 am
Just to add to the above; when I bought tickets from a shop I always put my name and short address on the back, and I would recommend everyone to do so.

As an aside the Mrs bought a Lucky Dip for yesterday's Draw and on checking this morning it has 4 numbers for £74.00 - "I thenk you!" as Arthur Askey used to say!!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: snowcap on August 03, 2012, 12:10:32 am
big hearted Arthur what a guy.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 03, 2012, 08:39:41 am
I believe the Lotto terminal in a shop makes a noise when you check a ticket if a large prize is won.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 03, 2012, 11:58:56 am
Obviously 74 quid is not considered big enough to engender even a peep from the machine. ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 04, 2012, 12:32:47 am
I believe the Lotto terminal in a shop makes a noise when you check a ticket if a large prize is won.

I'm sorry but  have never heard a beep from any lottery machine when I have won the odd tenner.

Moreover, it is not common knowledge amongst us mug punters that the machine beeps ... if it is actually the case, which I doubt.

But come to think of it, most tills in most shops are beeping away all the time, so how are we supposed to know the difference??





Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 04, 2012, 02:16:05 pm
This story is another example of the absolute vermin that now exist in this country:

SICK yobs have been caught on camera beating terrified pigs with bricks and fence posts at a country park.
Bosses at Greenfield Valley Heritage Park in Flintshire were left stunned when their CCTV recorded two separate incidents of the two black spot pigs being abused.
The attacks were so vicious that one of the animals, which have lived at the park since they were piglets, was left unconscious.
Park operations manager Chris Wright said the hidden cameras were set up after an incident in June, when a dog walker witnessed several youths chasing the pigs and hitting them with sticks.
He added: 'Staff downloaded video to check on Tuesday this week and discovered footage of the most horrific cruelty.
'It shows a group of youths in the pig enclosure chasing the two pigs, who are clearly in distress. The youths then appear to carry out various acts of
violence, which culminate in a pig being rendered unconscious.
'The abuse of the pigs is so barbaric, I have advised the staff not to view the footage. It is absolutely sickening and I can't believe any human beings could treat animals in this way.'
Mr Wright said the pigs have luckily made a full recovery from their ordeal and reinforced fencing has been put up in the council-run park to protect them from further attacks.
The incidents have also been reported to police and RSPCA.
'They are such friendly
animals and they are very popular with our visitors,' he added. 'Thankfully, this does not seem to have damaged them psychologically, as they are still very trusting of people.
'It could have been so much worse. We are just thankful that they haven't been killed or seriously injured.
'We just hope those responsible for these disgusting attacks can be brought to justice. We are helping police with their investigation and they are in possession of the CCTV footage.
'I would ask anyone who can offer any information about this to get in touch with officers as soon as possible.'
A North Wales Police spokesman said two separate incidents had been recorded, on June 17 at 8.36pm and on July 31.
Both times, three male youths in tracksuits and hoodies were seen beating one pig with a fence post and throwing bricks at the animals.
Inspector Jeff Moses said: 'These are truly despicable
incidents and I would appeal to anyone who knows anything about them to call us on 101.'
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 04, 2012, 02:38:20 pm
That's absolutely disgusting and the scum deserve the same treatment.   The offenders are probably local so if the park has clear CCTV footage of the incidents why don't they display them on posters or in local newspapers so that they can be identified and prosecuted.

It won't happen because of do gooders, human rights etc and those people make me feel sick too.  Pentan was spot on with a story he made earlier and I'm sure that the scum wouldn't do it again if the same thing happened in this case.
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 04, 2012, 11:47:09 pm
I saw your Tweet on that subject earlier Dave, and I was appalled.... but I couldn't help thinking.

What is the point of having expensive CCTV installed to protect these creatures, or property... if they aren't going to use it in full vigour to prosecute those scumbags responsible?

I would award 5 points each to these offenders.... (on my scale that leads to euthanasia)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 05, 2012, 08:35:37 am
Extreme cruelty to animals is impossible to defend. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 11:18:33 am
Extreme cruelty to animals is impossible to defend.

Yet Hunting is still a perfectly acceptable "sport" for the upper classes  &shake&

Also Fester, out of interest, how many points would Pentan have got for attacking and beating a group of youths? Think in your regime he might well be six foot under :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on August 05, 2012, 08:50:41 pm
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sir-jimmy-savile-a-paedophile-according-1218690 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sir-jimmy-savile-a-paedophile-according-1218690)
I got slated on this forum when I posted this subject; well it looks like old Jim did fix it another Masonic cover up
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on August 05, 2012, 08:54:19 pm
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/55533-death-of-a-showman-jimmy-saville-1926-2011 (http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/55533-death-of-a-showman-jimmy-saville-1926-2011)

now then now then jims at it again
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 09:08:38 pm
Your Jimmy Saville fixation is quite odd.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 09:13:10 pm
Also David Icke is as barmy as a box of frogs and thinks many influential people, including the Queen and George Bush are lizard creatures. I would not take him too seriously  ??? ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 05, 2012, 09:53:16 pm

I got slated on this forum when I posted this subject; well it looks like old Jim did fix it another Masonic cover up

What Masonic cover up?    And what other Masonic cover ups are you referring to?    $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 05, 2012, 10:00:40 pm
In the Mirror story, he's apparently abusing little girls. In the David Icke story, he's apparently abusing little boys. Which one is it?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 10:26:46 pm

I got slated on this forum when I posted this subject; well it looks like old Jim did fix it another Masonic cover up

What Masonic cover up?    And what other Masonic cover ups are you referring to?    $angry$

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=36860 (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=36860)

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 10:31:58 pm
However with quotes like

"Saville was among several men well known to local police, in fact Saville instigated the DJ disco genre solely to gain access to boys, and at that time, many of the DJs wanted access to androgynous scooter riding boys with their make up and Carnaby Street clothes."

Yes, because scooter riding is associated with Disco music isn't it ???

"The Krays endeared themselves to the British public after the IRA bombed the East London waterworks, when Reg Kray announced that if the IRA bombed once more every Irish pub and club the length of Britain would be destroyed.
Such was the Kray’s fearsome reputation that for some time after there was no more bombings."

 ??? ??? ???

"Winston Churchill’s original Sandhurst file, for example, described him as an idle layabout and a confirmed sodomite who was a menace to the younger boys."

 ??? ??? ??? ???

I wouldn't take it too seriously  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 05, 2012, 10:35:06 pm
What a great site that Truthseeker is...if you're a complete lunatic. My favourite story is...

100,000 to Die at the London Olympics ?

By wmw_admin on March 10, 2012

In the same way the attacks of 7/7 and 9/11 were predicted in films and TV shows, a fake ‘terrorist attack’ at the London 2012 Olympics is also being predicted

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on August 05, 2012, 11:05:51 pm
Your Jimmy Saville fixation is quite odd.

no m8 i dont like child abuse but it seems like lot of tossers do on top of the pops you could see him feeling the girls (now then now then jim will fix it yummy}
It seems to me this forum was set up by admin for a load of bigoted people like them what a load of manure you are
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: pentan on August 05, 2012, 11:07:18 pm
you can ban me cause I will not be using this s****e hole again
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 11:10:28 pm
The insanity of that video is terrifying. The character in a TV show asks for 5 and a half hours needed to catch a killer. That is 330 minutes and 33 is a Freemason symbol which means this will happen in real life :o :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 05, 2012, 11:19:57 pm
I would award Pentan £50 from public funds, and a large box of Ferrero Rocher chocolates.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 11:29:16 pm
 :laugh: But he broke your law and you are "very keen on justice, and despise injustice."


Therefore, everyone who breaks the law must be awarded their death points $good$
They all had fair warnings after all.

Unless you are going to have a clause in your law that says that your personal objections can override any law?
Much like..............

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 05, 2012, 11:30:28 pm
Ha ha  Pentan, .. it seems like you are back on the medication again...

When you first appeared on here I was convinced that you were a little nuts,  but when you reappeared recently you seemed to make quite a bit of sense.

But now, it would seem that my first impression was quite correct.

By the way, I can't be bothered actually viewing the web links to crazy conspiracy sites.  waste of time.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 05, 2012, 11:35:16 pm
I'm not sure he is sane anyway, and therefore not convinced that he did what he said he did,

However, I contend that if my 'death points' system was in place, these young yobs would have been most unlikely to waste their chances by causing casual trouble..... and Pentan would certainly have thought twice about behaving in the way HE did.

So there you have it, a win-win situation.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2012, 11:37:17 pm
I'm not sure he is sane anyway, and therefore not convinced that he did what he said he did,

However, I contend that if my 'death points' system was in place, these young yobs would have been most unlikely to waste their chances by causing casual trouble..... and Pentan would certainly have thought twice about behaving in the way HE did.

So there you have it, a win-win situation.

 ;D ;D _))* _))* WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 06, 2012, 06:47:19 am

What Masonic cover up?    And what other Masonic cover ups are you referring to?    $angry$

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=36860 (http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=36860)

Of course - the truth seeker is 100%  correct - BO**OCKS.    L0L

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 06, 2012, 07:07:38 am
Pentan seems like two different people, a split personality perhaps?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 06, 2012, 07:40:39 am
He probably believes that the moon is made of green cheese!!      _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on August 06, 2012, 06:58:48 pm
If all the Truthseeker spouts was happening all those years ago, it is rather surprising that it has not been until after Saville's death that all the rubbish comes out.   Having stayed single for all his life he must have attracted attention, and certainly many must have questioned his sexuality.

He was, of course, a very public individual and as such naturally attracted the admiration of girls old and young.  When these heavily made up 15 year olds throw themselves at you things can happen, and mistakes can be made.    Maybe he made a few, we shall never know.    I cannot imagine his being interested in homosexual acts with young boys, although he may have had such tendencies with "consenting" adults.  Again we may never know.

One must also never lose sight of all the goodness he brought into people's lives and the excellent charitable work he did for many groups and the Stoke Mandeville Hospital in particular.   With his busy public schedule and his Mother's demands on his time did he ever have his own time and opportunity to conduct himself as has been suggested?   I think not!   But then, I could be wrong!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As a rider to this thread, was it not Pentan who also started a Thread about Brothels and Prostitution?   Makes one think!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 27, 2012, 08:28:01 pm
The latest in the sad list of events that we continually have to add to this topic.

Mindless vandalism which was wrought to spoil the fun of many and the artistry of a few.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-19389953 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-19389953)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 27, 2012, 08:43:50 pm
"Several of the statues, including one of the Queen, were beheaded at the town's sand sculpture festival"

I'm just saddened it wasn't the real thing  $thanx$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 27, 2012, 08:54:36 pm
Steady on, B2R !!

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on August 27, 2012, 10:16:13 pm
The idea that our society is overflowing with scumbags is obviously right, I mean why would everybody say that if it wasn't true?

On the other hand...

ONS reveals the gap between perception and reality on crime statistics

http://fullfact.org/blog/crime_British_Crime_Survey_ONS_public_perception-2871 (http://fullfact.org/blog/crime_British_Crime_Survey_ONS_public_perception-2871)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 28, 2012, 07:32:29 am
Haha, yeh right, do you get out much? Go for a walk around Colwyn Bay or Rhyl..and take the ONS with you.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on August 29, 2012, 03:59:45 pm
I had a walk around Colwyn Bay yesterday, and Rhyl the other week as well, and survived to tell the tell.

Should I call the Weekly News?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 29, 2012, 11:42:53 pm
Were you with the ONS Goon Squad?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on August 30, 2012, 10:46:47 pm
No, I'm in the PC Brigade (Gay Loony Left Scottish Mafia Company)

I actually don't like the ONS and the like, coming here with their "statistical knowledge" this,  their "compiling empirical data" that, and their "showing social trends via verifiable methods" the other. I really hate the way they have the absolute gall to think they can prove things with facts. I mean you can prove anything with facts.

Why can't they just use intuition?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 30, 2012, 11:14:10 pm
I'm with the Bangor boy on this.

Every little incident in this area gets blown up to ridiculous proportions.

Just look at the stabbing in Llandudno - from looking at the facebook gossip in the afternoon I had found out that a teenage crack addict had gone on a shooting spree!!

Been out in Colwyn Bay & Bangor hundreds of times and have seen very little trouble - Stop blindly judging people and try actually meeting people.  ££$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 07:38:51 am
Who mentioned Bangor?  :laugh:

Kowlaski's original comment was about scumbags, not actual incidents. With respect, as you can see from my photographs, I spend more time out and about/travelling in the local area than most people...and I've seen plenty of scumbags. Ask Fester how many he has to deal with in an average week. Perhaps it's born2run that should get out a little bit more?

Statistics, as we know, can be made to show any desired result. Make your own mind up, don't just swallow blindly what the Government tells you.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2012, 10:15:10 am
I think the Bangor connection is Bangor City FC  who play at Farrar Road.


The scumbags are out there doing nothing positive or constructive apart from keeping Social workers and do gooders busy.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on August 31, 2012, 03:29:07 pm
I was referring to both "scumbags" and incidents. I assumed that there was an implicit connection between them, how would you notice a "scumbag" if they remained indoors?

There are obviously nasty people around but I don't think they're as widespread as people claim, which is an idea backed up by official statistics.

There may be a few so-called "scumbags" in Rhyl and Colwyn Bay but there are plenty of people living in "respectable" areas. If one walks over the Millbank bridge in Rhyl you are surrounded road after road of well-kept detached / semi-detached properties, the area just after Rhyl FC looks a lot like the St. Seriol's Road area (albeit with smaller houses).

Anti-social, or criminal, behaviour is obviously bad for society but then ask yourself what is more damaging for society...

(i) An individual "scumbag" vandalising the front of a shop.
(ii) A government minister authorising cuts to public services because they're pursuing an ideological crusade.
(iii) A Media Mogul using their media to create an atmosphere that leads to a government creating policies for the benefit of the mogul.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 31, 2012, 03:55:16 pm
The first option is illegal and without a doubt the worst!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2012, 04:12:11 pm
Well put - and I suspect it's no. 3:

(iii) A Media Mogul using their media to create an atmosphere that leads to a government creating policies for the benefit of the mogul.

although (2) runs a close second...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 09:55:04 pm
I was referring to both "scumbags" and incidents. I assumed that there was an implicit connection between them, how would you notice a "scumbag" if they remained indoors?

There are obviously nasty people around but I don't think they're as widespread as people claim, which is an idea backed up by official statistics.
Scumbags don't have to cause incidents to make life unpleasant for other people. I gave the example on the forum a few weeks ago of a man on the bus that was behaving in an extremely unpleasant way, causing offence to other passengers without actually doing anything that warranted the Police being called. Sadly, these are not particularly isolated occurrences any more - can I ask you how often you travel on public transport, particularly in the evenings, Kowalski?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on August 31, 2012, 10:44:13 pm
I travel on public transport all the time as it happens, more often than not my journey doesn't feature "scumbags".

I have encountered inconsiderate behaviour and anti-social habits quite often though, like yesterday when I had to stand for most of the train journey from Bangor to Rhyl because some people wanted a seat for their baggage, or like that Saturday in January Saturday when I went up to Glasgow by train  and had to listen to a smug middle class couple talk about their lives in nauseating detail for two and a half hours, or like that journey to Cardiff last year when students go on at Chester and I could hear what they were talking about at the other end of the carriage for 3 frigging hours, then there's the vast number of people that like to talk too loudly on public transport. I could go on.....

Hardly any of the examples I've given would involve what you would call "scumbags".
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2012, 10:48:18 pm
This is what Dave R is talking about Kowalski from his post a couple of weeks back

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice."

As sweeping generalizations go this one takes some beating.  ££$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 11:07:30 pm
This is what Dave R is talking about Kowalski from his post a couple of weeks back

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice."

As sweeping generalizations go this one takes some beating.  ££$
Being as it is based on specific people I've seen, how can it be a generalisation? What you're saying doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 11:11:33 pm
I travel on public transport all the time as it happens, more often than not my journey doesn't feature "scumbags".

I have encountered inconsiderate behaviour and anti-social habits quite often though, like yesterday when I had to stand for most of the train journey from Bangor to Rhyl because some people wanted a seat for their baggage, or like that Saturday in January Saturday when I went up to Glasgow by train  and had to listen to a smug middle class couple talk about their lives in nauseating detail for two and a half hours, or like that journey to Cardiff last year when students go on at Chester and I could hear what they were talking about at the other end of the carriage for 3 frigging hours, then there's the vast number of people that like to talk too loudly on public transport. I could go on.....

Hardly any of the examples I've given would involve what you would call "scumbags".
Dear me, what a terrible life you lead, having to listen to middle class people talk on the train. And they say people in the Third World have it bad!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 31, 2012, 11:13:30 pm
A recent court case.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/08/21/friends-jailed-for-25-years-for-merciless-train-station-assault-91466-31668563/ (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2012/08/21/friends-jailed-for-25-years-for-merciless-train-station-assault-91466-31668563/)

A group of friends who subjected two men to a merciless eight-minute assault have been jailed for a total of 25 years.

The unprovoked attack at Llandudno rail station, which left one of the victims with partial loss of vision and permanent damage to his eye, took place after a day spent drinking in the town centre.

Brothers Jamie John Griffiths, aged 24, of Tywyn Isaf, Prestatyn, and Jordan Griffiths, aged 22, of Ffordd Talargoch, Prestatyn, and a third man, Ciaran Wright, aged 18, of Ffordd Pennant, Prestatyn, were jailed at Mold Crown Court.

A fourth male, a 17-year-old youth – who cannot be named for legal reasons – was sent to a young offenders' institute.

All four were found guilty at an earlier hearing of causing grievous bodily harm and attempting to cause grievous bodily harm.

The court was told that on Friday, 28 October 2011, the four men had been out in Llandudno town centre all day celebrating Wright’s 18th birthday, and had each consumed a large amount of alcohol.

Around 11.40pm, they made their way to the station to see if they could catch a train home to Prestatyn, and it was here that they came across the two victims – one aged 43 and a 22-year-old.

Jordan Griffiths, Wright and the 17-year-old youth became involved in an altercation with the two men. Jamie Griffiths then ran into the station and, without provocation, attacked one of them.

This initiated an attack on both victims by all four men that lasted eight minutes. During the assault, which was captured on CCTV, both victims were seen to be punched repeatedly and kicked while semi-conscious on the floor.

At no point did either victim demonstrate any aggression towards any of their attackers, with one of them pleading for them to stop on more than one occasion.

When two of the attackers fled the scene both Griffiths brothers remained and continued the attack for a further five minutes.

At one point, the court heard, both victims were unconscious on the floor with the brothers kicking them to the head.

An 18-year-old woman, who the group had met earlier in Llandudno and was with them as they made their way to the station, tried to intervene and stop the attack, but was pushed away.

Both victims suffered head and facial injuries, as well as cuts and bruises to the neck, chest and back. Both also had bite marks, while one of them suffered a rupture to the left eye, which a consultant ophthalmologist described as “untreatable and irreversible”, adding that the victim was now at risk of developing cataract glaucoma and a detached retina in the future.

As a result of the assault, Jamie Griffiths was recalled to prison to serve the remainder of a sentence he received after committing a burglary in Wellington Road, Rhyl, on 9 September 2011.

In interview, Jamie Griffiths said he was drunk at the time of the attack and did not remember everything. He admitted at one point to sitting on one of the victims, punching him repeatedly to the head, and conceded that, at that this point, he would have feared for his life.

Wright also conceded that he didn’t remember much, as it was his birthday and he was drunk. He did, however, admit during interview to kicking one of the victims to the head or upper body before running from the scene and putting his hood up to hide his identity. He added he was sorry for his actions.

Jordan Griffiths provided no comment to all questions asked in interview, while the 17-year-old youth claimed he was drunk and could remember only parts of the incident. He apologised before adding that he did not intend for anything to happen.

Speaking after sentencing, Detective Inspector Mark Cleland, of British Transport Police, said: “This was a prolonged and horrific attack on two men who were making their way home from a night out in Llandudno.

“When they were unconscious and defenceless on the ground, both Griffiths brothers took advantage, launching violent blows to their victims, leaving them seriously injured.

“It is clear through the injuries suffered and the trauma of the ordeal that this incident has had a severe impact on the victims. Due to the severity of the attack, one of them has been left with a life-changing injury to his left eye, where he now has only peripheral vision.

“I welcome the sentences handed down and hope they go some way to helping the victims to start moving on with their lives.”

The two Griffiths brothers were each sentenced to seven years imprisonment.

Wright was sentenced to six years imprisonment.

The 17-year-old youth was sentenced to five years in a young offenders' institute.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2012, 11:49:07 pm
This is what Dave R is talking about Kowalski from his post a couple of weeks back

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice."

As sweeping generalizations go this one takes some beating.  ££$
Being as it is based on specific people I've seen, how can it be a generalisation? What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

No what you said doesn't make any sense. You may have seen specific people but you actually say "the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same"  Just because you have seen someone do something doesn't mean that all people from that age group and locality act in the same way, which is what you seem to believe.

I was on a train a few months ago going from London heading into Surrey and I saw a large gang of upper class oafs swigging wine and lager and using, I'm sure, just as bad language and causing as much of a scene as the fellows you have witnessed. The difference is I don't go on a forum and say

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Windsor,Kingston or other upper class accent always swigging from bottles of expensive wine or beer always swearing at the top of their voice."

Because I know that would be just as much a pointless generalization as your Manchester/Liverpool one was.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 01, 2012, 12:10:53 am
''I had to listen to a smug middle class couple talk about their lives in nauseating detail for two and a half hours'',

Ha ha... Dave, that sounds like spending an entire afternoon in Caffe Nero!   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2012, 07:22:38 am
This is what Dave R is talking about Kowalski from his post a couple of weeks back

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice."

As sweeping generalizations go this one takes some beating.  ££$
Being as it is based on specific people I've seen, how can it be a generalisation? What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

No what you said doesn't make any sense. You may have seen specific people but you actually say "the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same"  Just because you have seen someone do something doesn't mean that all people from that age group and locality act in the same way, which is what you seem to believe.
Not at all, that's not what I said. If you look at what I said again, you'll see the quote begins with 'In my experience'. All of the incidents I have personally witnessed have been committed by "a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice". That's a fact, whether you like it or not. Maybe I've just been unlucky but I can honestly say I've never heard a person with a local accent causing trouble in that way.  $walesflag$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2012, 07:23:28 am
''I had to listen to a smug middle class couple talk about their lives in nauseating detail for two and a half hours'',

Ha ha... Dave, that sounds like spending an entire afternoon in Caffe Nero!   :laugh: :laugh:
Yes...and, even worse.... hogging the window seats too.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 01, 2012, 07:30:01 am
'In my experience'. All of the incidents I have personally witnessed have been committed by "a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice".

So all these Cockneys and Brummies are OK people then!    _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 01, 2012, 10:47:17 am
This is what Dave R is talking about Kowalski from his post a couple of weeks back

"In my experience, the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same. Always a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice."

As sweeping generalizations go this one takes some beating.  ££$
Being as it is based on specific people I've seen, how can it be a generalisation? What you're saying doesn't make any sense.

No what you said doesn't make any sense. You may have seen specific people but you actually say "the sort of people committing these offences on public transport are always the same"  Just because you have seen someone do something doesn't mean that all people from that age group and locality act in the same way, which is what you seem to believe.
Not at all, that's not what I said. If you look at what I said again, you'll see the quote begins with 'In my experience'. All of the incidents I have personally witnessed have been committed by "a male in their 20s or 30s, always a Manchester or Liverpool accent, always swigging from cans of lager, always swearing at the top of their voice". That's a fact, whether you like it or not. Maybe I've just been unlucky but I can honestly say I've never heard a person with a local accent causing trouble in that way.  $walesflag$

Well I do think you must have been unlucky. There is no way, surely, that you believe that all or even the majority of offences are committed by people from Liverpool or Manchester? Which again makes me wonder why you made a post chastising people from Liverpool and Manchester, and further wonder why you believe that is acceptable. I'm almost sure that if the people you have seen had all been black you would not have made a post on here saying that in your "experience" all crime is committed by black people.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 01, 2012, 11:04:30 am

Maybe I've just been unlucky but I can honestly say I've never heard a person with a local accent causing trouble in that way.  $walesflag$

I wonder what is the "local" accent?   It appears to me that a local person can have anything from a real broad Welsh accent to any other regional accent of the UK.  To my mind there is no such thing as a "local" accent, or if there is, I don't recognise one that is distinctive enough to regard it as "North Walien".

 $uk
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2012, 04:34:35 pm
Well I do think you must have been unlucky. There is no way, surely, that you believe that all or even the majority of offences are committed by people from Liverpool or Manchester? Which again makes me wonder why you made a post chastising people from Liverpool and Manchester, and further wonder why you believe that is acceptable. I'm almost sure that if the people you have seen had all been black you would not have made a post on here saying that in your "experience" all crime is committed by black people.
Unlucky or not, it happened. I've never said the majority of offences in general are committed by Liverpool or Manchester people, however it is a fact the incidents I have personally witnessed were committed by people with accents from those areas. If you don't like that, it's tough, I'm afraid, because I'm not going to lie for you or anyone else.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2012, 04:35:35 pm

Maybe I've just been unlucky but I can honestly say I've never heard a person with a local accent causing trouble in that way.  $walesflag$

I wonder what is the "local" accent?   It appears to me that a local person can have anything from a real broad Welsh accent to any other regional accent of the UK.  To my mind there is no such thing as a "local" accent, or if there is, I don't recognise one that is distinctive enough to regard it as "North Walien".

 $uk
Perhaps you don't know as many people as me, Yorkie?  ;) I know you certainly don't travel in the local area as widely as I do.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 01, 2012, 04:52:38 pm
Perhaps you don't know as many people as me, Yorkie?  ;) I know you certainly don't travel in the local area as widely as I do.

I think you have both points incorrect there!   The number of local people I am aquainted with in the three towns area is quite exhaustive, not just those who are here now but those who have moved away!  I also have travelled, and still do travel, locally and over the whole of North Wales, on a very regular basis.  I have also lived locally for 25 years so am not exactly a new boy on the block!  I do not have impaired hearing and I still cannot recognise anything resembling a local accent.  Pop a video on the Forum with someone using the local accent, then I shall be suitably enlightened. WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2012, 06:03:36 pm
Can't you recognise a Liverpool or Manchester accent Yorkie because they are not difficult to recognise?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 01, 2012, 10:48:26 pm
Can't you recognise a Liverpool or Manchester accent Yorkie because they are not difficult to recognise?

Oh yes I recognise The Scouse and MU accents but according to others, they are NOT the local accent.  I remain without that knowledge which I seek! 
 ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 02, 2012, 09:17:14 am
Perhaps you don't know as many people as me, Yorkie?  ;) I know you certainly don't travel in the local area as widely as I do.

I think you have both points incorrect there!   The number of local people I am aquainted with in the three towns area is quite exhaustive, not just those who are here now but those who have moved away!  I also have travelled, and still do travel, locally and over the whole of North Wales, on a very regular basis.  I have also lived locally for 25 years so am not exactly a new boy on the block!  I do not have impaired hearing and I still cannot recognise anything resembling a local accent.  Pop a video on the Forum with someone using the local accent, then I shall be suitably enlightened. WWW
Ah, when I say 'local area', I'm thinking of North Wales really. Go out of the coastal belt and visit, say, Bangor, Caernarfon or Llanrwst and you'll soon hear local accents.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 02, 2012, 10:02:30 am

Ah, when I say 'local area', I'm thinking of North Wales really. Go out of the coastal belt and visit, say, Bangor, Caernarfon or Llanrwst and you'll soon hear local accents.  $good$

I'm also thinking of North Wales and as far as the others are concerned they are only local to their respective areas, n'est ce pas?  Bit like an English accent being anything between a Cornish-man and someone from Suffolk or Newcastle!

Been all round the coast (including Anglesey) and almost the whole of the rest of the UK, so not lost for doing to odd bit of listening to regional accents.   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 02, 2012, 10:21:06 am

Ah, when I say 'local area', I'm thinking of North Wales really. Go out of the coastal belt and visit, say, Bangor, Caernarfon or Llanrwst and you'll soon hear local accents.  $good$

I'm also thinking of North Wales and as far as the others are concerned they are only local to their respective areas, n'est ce pas?  Bit like an English accent being anything between a Cornish-man and someone from Suffolk or Newcastle!

Been all round the coast (including Anglesey) and almost the whole of the rest of the UK, so not lost for doing to odd bit of listening to regional accents.   :D

I can tell,generally, the difference between Llanduno, Conwy & Colwyn Bay accents. I notice the subtle differences. Impossible to describe in text though. However - the Conwy & Pen accent is quite similar as is the Colwyn Bay/Rhyl accent.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 02, 2012, 11:00:35 am
Immigration has diluted any local accents in the coastal fringe, but once past Glan Conwy then very pronounced accents emerge. Quite a strong difference between Betws and Bangor, for instance.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 02, 2012, 11:31:00 am
I found Scotland quite interesting when I lived just outside of Glasgow.  There is a distinct difference between East and West Coast accents, and then other subtle differences from North to South with the softest and most perfect enunciation coming from the people in Inverness.   Glasgow is quite guttural but Edinburgh is much softer and lacks the harshness of the Glaswegians.  Fortunately, or not depending on how you look at it, I am able to understand every word of the Rab C. Nesbitt TV series!
 _))* 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 02, 2012, 02:52:03 pm
Scumbags are rife, and they just need sorting out, I think the vast majority are agreed on that.

A cautionary tale about what happens when people think they know better than centuries of civilised law making:

http://youtu.be/KOUdakrP52E (http://youtu.be/KOUdakrP52E)

...I'm the bad guy?
http://youtu.be/iBy4X2rjF-k (http://youtu.be/iBy4X2rjF-k)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on September 02, 2012, 05:03:46 pm
As Scumbags are rife and everybody knows this I thought I'd look for evidence on this thread.

I found 20 separate incidents (including 7 pages about the London riots) caused by scumbags, 14 of which happened in north Wales. Considering that this thread has been here for more than a year we live in a society where "scumbags are rife" it's amazing that people only found 20 incidents.

A country of 60 million > 20 incidents in a year > "scumbags are rife". I don't see the logic.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2012, 11:09:01 pm
You chose a somewhat narrow basis for your research Kowalski.

I could post numerous examples everyday on this thread, but no one gives a damn.
I have also posted examples on other threads, such as 'outrageous behaviour'

As Dave R says, I encounter scumbags every day of my life, including just last weekend, when a drunken idiot wanted to pick a fight with me, in front of his daughter!  The poor kid....
I'm sick of it, and they need sorting out.

Instead, I me that gets reported and questioned for sorting them out myself, when they only had themselves to blame.

I shouldn't have to concern myself with their like.
I'm an old man, just trying to run a little business...

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 02, 2012, 11:15:36 pm
You chose a somewhat narrow basis for your research Kowalski.

I could post numerous examples everyday on this thread, but no one gives a damn.
I have also posted examples on other threads, such as 'outrageous behaviour'

As Dave R says, I encounter scumbags every day of my life, including just last weekend, when a drunken idiot wanted to pick a fight with me, in front of his daughter!  The poor kid....
I'm sick of it, and they need sorting out.

Instead, I me that gets reported and questioned for sorting them out myself, when they only had themselves to blame.

I shouldn't have to concern myself with their like.
I'm an old man, just trying to run a little business...


Hmm, but they do say that violence is the last refuge of the incompetent, do they not...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2012, 11:25:43 pm
Good point Ludo, and good spot.....but I would counter that by saying that I am not the one seeking to instigate violence.
I am just put in a position where I have little choice but to resort to it more and more these days.

By the way Ludo, I am becoming quite aware that you seem to be developing an obsession with what I say, and also my business.

I have no interest in your tales of double-decker buses, etc... so perhaps you could confine yourself to those subjects, or maybe your own business?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 02, 2012, 11:36:38 pm
Good point Ludo, and good spot.....but I would counter that by saying that I am not the one seeking to instigate violence.
I am just put in a position where I have little choice but to resort to it more and more these days.

Same situation with Buzz Aldrin actually - Bart Sibrel was aggressively abusive and obstructed Buzz and his daughter from getting to their car. Is it a case of one rule for Fester and another rule for everyone else then?. As for my interest in what you are saying, yes - if someone calls what I write 'crap' I am naturally interested to find out what position they are coming from.

Your last post in this thread and a few others seem to be bringing me closer to discovering your position.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 02, 2012, 11:48:04 pm
Ludo, I have stated my position on this from the outset, and not changed it.
That being , due to the very long list of anomalies and doubts, I am 60% convinced that the Apollo Moon landings were faked.

Therefore, I am unable to vote in the poll that exists on this thread, as I am not CERTAIN either way.

Remember, that is not the actual poll I requested that the moderators set up, therefore the result is interesting, but not very conclusive.

Oh, and by the way, I do regret dropping that remark in about Buzz Aldrin, it was meant in fun.
In actual fact, if I were him, I would have chinned that CHUFF as well.

By the way, I have just realised that we are on the wrong thread now....


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 12:03:35 am
Oh, and by the way, I do regret dropping that remark in about Buzz Aldrin, it was meant in fun. In actual fact, if I were him, I would have chinned that chuff as well.

Its easy now say it was only a joke - that was certainly not what it seemed like at the time. In the context of that discussion, I felt YOU were being serious in suggesting that the man who made possible the orbital mechanics of the Apollo missions and every other space mission involving orbital rendezvous before and since (eg the building of the ISS) was a yob. The reality of the situation would seem to suggest the complete opposite.

Any online social media resource including forums such as this one, does not automatically entitle the participants to abnegate responsibility for what they write. Perhaps you are confusing the 21st century concept of a 'Forum' with a personal 'Blog'.

(I don't think this is in the wrong thread)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 12:38:29 am
Ludo, I have stated my position on this from the outset, and not changed it. That being, due to the very long list of anomalies and doubts, I am 60% convinced that the Apollo Moon landings were faked.

I was not referring to your 'position' on the subject of the lunar landings. I think it is perfectly clear to everyone where you stand on this issue, and as you say you have 'an answer for everything'. Again, it is worse than nonsense to 'discuss' it with you. No, I was referring to the intellectual rationale which led you to the conclusion that my suggestion of research into the green weed problem on the north shore was 'crap'. I have discovered since that there is no rationale, only block headed arrogance - and that is always pointless to try and engage with, except perhaps with a sense of humour.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 03, 2012, 07:43:09 am

Its easy now say it was only a joke - that was certainly not what it seemed like at the time. In the context of that discussion, I felt YOU were being serious in suggesting that the man who made possible the orbital mechanics of the Apollo missions and every other space mission involving orbital rendezvous before and since (eg the building of the ISS) was a yob.

In defence of Fester, I would suggest that we should all realise that the written word fails to give the correct impression as to intention, as it lacks the other small matters of body language, facial expression or tone of voice that one gets with the spoken word.  Consequently ones interpretation can often be incorrectly made, and misunderstanding can, and do, occur.

I too write in a somewhat direct manner and have a similar problem of occasional misunderstanding by the reader to some posts.

I trust you will interpret this post in the manner in which it is written!    ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 04:05:49 pm

Its easy now say it was only a joke - that was certainly not what it seemed like at the time. In the context of that discussion, I felt YOU were being serious in suggesting that the man who made possible the orbital mechanics of the Apollo missions and every other space mission involving orbital rendezvous before and since (eg the building of the ISS) was a yob.

In defence of Fester, I would suggest that we should all realise that the written word fails to give the correct impression as to intention, as it lacks the other small matters of body language, facial expression or tone of voice that one gets with the spoken word.  Consequently ones interpretation can often be incorrectly made, and misunderstanding can, and do, occur.

I too write in a somewhat direct manner and have a similar problem of occasional misunderstanding by the reader to some posts.

I trust you will interpret this post in the manner in which it is written!    ;)

People hide behind devices such as devil's advocate and double entendres and denouncing later what they wrote as a 'joke' when they lack courage of conviction. It is then up to the reader to embark on the tedious process of teasing out the truth in a statement from someone who lacks the courage or written skills to express it clearly in the first instance. That was why I challenged Fester to clarify what he had written. I agree that 75 percent of communication is non verbal, but unfortunately in an online forum we have only the remaining 25% afforded us by the medium. Indeed the other point I made about Fester calling my post about the green weed 'crap' does not seem to have been misinterpreted by me in any way, and I still find his arrogant and ignorant reply to it offensive. However, I am prepared to forgive him as I see it was written at 1.42am on the Saturday night he had the altercation with the "drunken idiot who wanted to pick a fight with him, in front of his daughter!" so he was possibly p****d and out of control of his inhibitions.

(I think I have interpreted your post in the manner it was written)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 03, 2012, 04:45:09 pm
Dank u wel.   Diolch yn fawr.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 03, 2012, 06:15:26 pm

Its easy now say it was only a joke - that was certainly not what it seemed like at the time. In the context of that discussion, I felt YOU were being serious in suggesting that the man who made possible the orbital mechanics of the Apollo missions and every other space mission involving orbital rendezvous before and since (eg the building of the ISS) was a yob.

In defence of Fester, I would suggest that we should all realise that the written word fails to give the correct impression as to intention, as it lacks the other small matters of body language, facial expression or tone of voice that one gets with the spoken word.  Consequently ones interpretation can often be incorrectly made, and misunderstanding can, and do, occur.

I too write in a somewhat direct manner and have a similar problem of occasional misunderstanding by the reader to some posts.

I trust you will interpret this post in the manner in which it is written!    ;)

People hide behind devices such as devil's advocate and double entendres and denouncing later what they wrote as a 'joke' when they lack courage of conviction. It is then up to the reader to embark on the tedious process of teasing out the truth in a statement from someone who lacks the courage or written skills to express it clearly in the first instance. That was why I challenged Fester to clarify what he had written. I agree that 75 percent of communication is non verbal, but unfortunately in an online forum we have only the remaining 25% afforded us by the medium. Indeed the other point I made about Fester calling my post about the green weed 'crap' does not seem to have been misinterpreted by me in any way, and I still find his arrogant and ignorant reply to it offensive. However, I am prepared to forgive him as I see it was written at 1.42am on the Saturday night he had the altercation with the "drunken idiot who wanted to pick a fight with him, in front of his daughter!" so he was possibly p****d and out of control of his inhibitions.

(I think I have interpreted your post in the manner it was written)

How very dare you! I know Fester very well and have never seen him consume any alcohol  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 07:01:26 pm
Dank u wel.   Diolch yn fawr.

Graag gedaan! - Rydych yn croesawu!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 07:20:43 pm
How very dare you! I know Fester very well and have never seen him consume any alcohol  &shake&

...so that was devil's advocate, double entendre or 'only joking' - or all three?

No one seems to read the Olympics thread... so I will post this disastrous German diver video here..

Its so funny, it reminds me of myself on holiday, with a couple of beers inside me...  Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 03, 2012, 07:29:34 pm
How very dare you! I know Fester very well and have never seen him consume any alcohol  &shake&

...so that was devil's advocate, double entendre or 'only joking' - or all three?

No one seems to read the Olympics thread... so I will post this disastrous German diver video here..

Its so funny, it reminds me of myself on holiday, with a couple of beers inside me...  Z**

No I can quite honestly say I have never seen Fester consume alcohol... (he drinks it far too fast for me to see

 Z** Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 03, 2012, 07:58:05 pm

No I can quite honestly say I have never seen Fester consume alcohol... (he drinks it far too fast for me to see

 Z** Z**

I don't drink much either...



Z**



...I spill most of it! 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 03, 2012, 10:28:17 pm
Good Lord, Ludo.

You do seem to be tying yourself up in lots of angst over this issue.
Even resorting to some  barbed comments, bordering on the personal.
But I'll have to let you off, seeing as you most likely have Parkinson's, as you admit to spilling most of your drinks.
Now, see how easy it is to have one of your 'jokes' misinterpreted dear boy?

At 1.42am I am often on the Forum, my work often demands that I cannot get to it until those times.

I do vaguely recall your long, rambling piece about green algae suggesting I sell it or suchlike.
I don't recall calling it crap though.... and I can't be arsed searching back for it.
However, if I said it the the time, then that must have been my opinion.
I must have genuinely thought it was crap, (albeit cleverly written crap)

Lots of things I say and do are most likely crap, (especially my investment portfolio eh Dave?  :laugh:)  ..
Like my feeble attempts to grow some hair, or excel at Golf for example....and anyone has the right to say so, its a public forum after all.



Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 03, 2012, 10:40:00 pm
Good Lord, Ludo.

You do seem to be tying yourself up in lots of angst over this issue.
Even resorting to some  barbed comments, bordering on the personal.
But I'll have to let you off, seeing as you most likely have Parkinson's, as you admit to spilling most of your drinks.
Now, see how easy it is to have one of your 'jokes' misinterpreted dear boy?

At 1.42am I am often on the Forum, my work often demands that I cannot get to it until those times.

I do vaguely recall your long, rambling piece about green algae suggesting I sell it or suchlike.
I don't recall calling it crap though.... and I can't be arsed searching back for it.
However, if I said it the the time, then that must have been my opinion.
I must have genuinely thought it was crap, (albeit cleverly written crap)

Lots of things I say and do are most likely crap, (especially my investment portfolio eh Dave?  :laugh:)  ..
Like my feeble attempts to grow some hair, or excel at Golf for example....and anyone has the right to say so, its a public forum after all.

I had a look for that "crap" post (I really have too much time on my hands :o) and I couldn't find anything


edit - it was this

"Anyway!!!!   ....After all that crap, it was busy in the old town tonight!   All the pubs were packed.   

By the way I have jars of green algae for sale (apparently) ..... £10 a pop,  not a bad price for the elixyr of life.
Form an orderly queue please."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 04, 2012, 01:58:49 am
Well there you go then, B2R.
After much digging you found the remark which has so profoundly exercised Ludo.
As I said earlier, it must have been my opinion at the time, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

By the way, its nearly 2am, I'm only the Forum, and perfectly sober!   Work does that to a person.

Anyhow, earlier Ludo asked if I know the difference between a Blog and a Forum.
One would hope I do, seeing as I contribute regularly to both media.

A Forum is a place where open and free discussion is encouraged, but can be moderated if one steps out of line.
Looking at some of Ludo's earlier activities aimed in my direction, I would imagine that Messrs Ian and Dave would be closer to moderating HIM, rather than anything I have said.

A Blog is where someone can spout endless, unchecked and vitriolic diatribe, even straying into borderline harassment at times.
Hey,  ... hang on a minute, Ludo... do YOU know the difference between a blog and a forum??  :twoface:




Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 04, 2012, 10:31:21 am
Well there you go then, B2R.
After much digging you found the remark which has so profoundly exercised Ludo.
As I said earlier, it must have been my opinion at the time, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

By the way, its nearly 2am, I'm only the Forum, and perfectly sober!   Work does that to a person.

Anyhow, earlier Ludo asked if I know the difference between a Blog and a Forum.
One would hope I do, seeing as I contribute regularly to both media.

A Forum is a place where open and free discussion is encouraged, but can be moderated if one steps out of line.
Looking at some of Ludo's earlier activities aimed in my direction, I would imagine that Messrs Ian and Dave would be closer to moderating HIM, rather than anything I have said.

A Blog is where someone can spout endless, unchecked and vitriolic diatribe, even straying into borderline harassment at times.
Hey,  ... hang on a minute, Ludo... do YOU know the difference between a blog and a forum??  :twoface:




[MODERATED]
























Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 04, 2012, 12:30:52 pm
Did Ludocrus post that or was he actually moderated? - confused  :rage:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 04, 2012, 12:41:17 pm
Did Ludocrus post that or was he actually moderated? - confused  :rage:

Someone will no doubt cry, "Masonic influence!", and as such it will remain a secret.     ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 04, 2012, 01:05:31 pm
Did Ludocrus post that or was he actually moderated? - confused  :rage:
It would say 'Edited by DaveR' at the bottom of the post if I had moderated it. Additionally, I always post an explanation as to why the post has been edited.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 04, 2012, 05:02:16 pm
Must be one of Ludo's jokes that is too clever for me to find funny then ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 04, 2012, 05:26:13 pm
 More likely he's saying he's moderated himself - perhaps because of what he was considering posting :-))
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ludo on September 04, 2012, 06:54:53 pm
More likely he's saying he's moderated himself - perhaps because of what he was considering posting :-))

Arglwydd Mawr Ian - you're good!   8)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 05, 2012, 09:12:39 am
Back to the topic of scum...here's a very good example:

A HUSBAND has told how his family have been left devastated by the actions of a “ruthless” hit and run driver who abandoned his wife to die on a country road.

Michael James Lundstram was jailed for eight months at Caernarfon crown court today and banned from driving for two and half years for killing Dwygyfylchi cyclist and mother-five Susan Griffiths.

The 29-year-old of Cwm Place struck Mrs Griffiths near her home, while she was cycling to work in an early morning crash last December.

Lundstram, who was driving while uninsured, instead of helping the 47-year-old mum or calling for help, fled the scene to hide in some bushes.


In a victim impact statement read to the court, her husband Arwyn Griffiths said: “We are absolutely devastated by our loss. We will feel the pain ( of Susan’s death) for many years to come.

“I can’t fathom why any human being could drive away from the scene of such a ruthless crime.

“My son, daughters and grandchildren will miss her so much.”

Ian Evans, prosecuting, said Lundstram had been playing snooker and poker all through the night before and into the early hours of the morning of the crash.

“At 5.30am on December 9 he collided with a pedal cycle. Susan Griffiths was thrown from the bike and landed in the carriageway.

“The defendant didn’t stop to see if she was OK, or call the emergency services. Instead he fled the scene and went up to the mountain where he hid in some bushes.”

Mrs Griffiths lay on the road with serious head and facial injuries for 15 minutes until she was spotted by a passing motorist.


“Mrs Griffiths was still alive at this point,” Mr Evans added.

The motorist, a nurse, raised the alarm and another nurse in the village also went to Mrs Griffiths aid as they waited for emergency services to arrive.

Paramedics performed emergency first aid at the scene before she was taken by ambulance to Ysbyty Gwynedd, Bangor, where she later died.

Mr Evans told the court that Lundstram was previously banned from driving in 2009 and that he had no insurance at the time of the offence.

Peter Moss, defending, said Lundstram had plead guilty at the earliest opportunity and was “remorseful” and “contrite”.

“This will haunt him for the rest of his life,” Mr Moss added.

He said his client had fled the scene out of “panic at the gravity of the situation” and was unaware that he had no insurance as he had left it to his wife to organise.

Mr Moss urged the court not to jail the defendant but impose a community sentence and curfew order, describing the father-of-two as “well respected” in the community.

“He is terrified at the prospect of an immediate custodial sentence.”

But Judge Niclas Parry jailed him for eight months for causing death of Susan Griffiths while driving the uninsured car. He was also disqualified for two and a half years for failing to stop at the scene of an accident and having two defective tyres on the Mondeo.

Judge Parry said Lundstram had taken a “cavalier” attitude to his insurance status but that “paled into insignificance” compared to his subsequent actions.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/09/04/north-wales-man-jailed-for-eight-months-over-hit-and-run-death-55578-31764728/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/09/04/north-wales-man-jailed-for-eight-months-over-hit-and-run-death-55578-31764728/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2012, 10:30:31 am
I saw that on TV last night and couldn't believe it.      I take it that it was a manslaughter charge, because that is what happened and thought that they had introduced new laws so that the sentencing was more severe for this type of thing, the driving ban was a joke too.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on September 05, 2012, 09:38:24 pm
I must admit that if you look for scumbags you do find them.....

"Australian mining magnate Gina Rinehart has criticised her country's economic performance and said Africans willing to work for $2 a day should be an inspiration.

Ms Rinehart is said to make nearly A$600 (£393) a second, and her views have been dismissed by Prime Minister Julia Gillard."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19487985 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19487985)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 08, 2012, 02:45:04 pm
She said that Australians smoked and drank too much but made no comment about Australians eating too much, I wonder why?   &shake&
Perhaps she's been eating off the fat of the land for too long and it's affected her in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 09, 2012, 09:47:33 pm
Ha ha.... Hugo. thats hilarious.....  L0L

What a self-righteous pile of #### she made herself look! 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on September 12, 2012, 07:36:05 pm
I watched the Hillsborough enquiry today while I was in work.......I've had a rant on Oscars and facebook so I'll keep this short.  It just goes to show that doggid persistence pays off in the end, the sheer determination of the family's who lost loved ones and the Liverpool fans who tirelessly campaigned for 23 years is the reason the truth was outed today.  I find it utterly deplorable that 164 police officers "significantly altered their statements" to cover their own asses and those of their senior officers namely David Duckenfield.  I don't know how Kelvin Macenzie can hold his head up.  It's all well and good giving "profuse apologies" now 23 years later, now those involved can not hide.  It also goes to show that when you have the Police, politicians and the media in cahoots anything can be brushed under the carpet, but the truth will out even if it does take 23 years.  Will duckenfield face charges of death by negligence? Will the 164 police officers be charged with perverting the course of justice...........bet my life they don't.  On the news they made excuses saying that some officers of 1989 would no longer be serving........and?........that's no reason not to charge them.  If this has been covered up just imagine the miscarriages of justice these kind of police tactics are responsible for.......makes me feel sick!!

There's a lot to be said for the power of the people and we should remember that.  I don't think we've heard the end of this.  The family's have come this far now let's see those responsible for this cover up held accountable.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on September 12, 2012, 09:26:05 pm
Today's evidence yet again proves just what a horrible decade the 1980s were. Government Dirty Tricks, Cover Ups, Yuppies, Reinvigorated Cold War

The trouble was that at the time of Hillsborough, not enough people wanted to hear the truth. Too many people went along with the right wing press' version of events. Too many people believed that football fans were scumbags, too many people believed that Scousers were scumbags.

Unfortunately a quick scan of twitter will show that the truth still doesn't matter to some people. Some people still think Scouse scumbags were to blame.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on September 12, 2012, 10:24:34 pm
Kowalski some people wouldn't believe the truth if it jumped up and smacked them in the mouth.  I don't think that dirty tricks, cover ups and corruption are a thing of the 80s I think it's just as bad now.  With the banking scenarios, corruption and back handers left right and centre. It just seems to be a case of making money now.  I mean what was the outcome of the Leveson enquiry?  Was anyone accountable?  It's all about diversion tactics now and the media is the machine that promotes it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2012, 08:16:31 pm
I was in Colwyn Bay today, about 12.30pm, walking along Conwy Road just by the Glass Lounge. There were two men and a woman (all early 20s) shouting abuse across the road at a woman leaning out of the window in a second floor flat. There was the usual swearing and threats of violence going back and forth. Dare I mention that they all had Manchester accents? I realise it doesn't fit in with some people's fantasy land view of reality but it certainly happened and I've seen similar incidents many times in both Colwyn Bay & Rhyl.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2012, 08:19:58 pm
This was in the Daily Post today:

A GANG of masked raiders struck at a funeral director, B&B, and two shops in a “campaign of burglary”.

The team of criminals travelled from Liverpool to commit offences in North Wales.

They first struck at a guest house in Betws-y-Coed in the early hours of the morning – but fled when the occupants were disturbed.

Mold Crown Court heard how they then struck at Trefnant Stores near Denbigh but failed to get in.

There then followed a burglary at a local funeral director’s premises at Trefnant and an attempted burglary at The Old Post Office in Northop Hall.

The spree came to an end when police were alerted and two of the gang were arrested at Northop.

Yesterday Paul Corness, 26, of no fixed abode but who comes from Liverpool and Joseph Nolan, 21, of Warren House Road in Kirkby, were each jailed for two and a half years.

Both pleaded guilty to attempted burglary at Oakfield Bed and Breakfast in Betws-y-Coed on February 6.

Nolan admitted attempted burglary at Trefnant Stores near Denbigh, burglary at Morris and Son funeral directors at Trefnant and allowing himself to be carried in a stolen Audi car.

He and Corness pleaded guilty to attempted burglary at the Old Post Office in Northop Hall.

Judge Philip Hughes said the picture that emerged was that the two of them were part of a team which travelled a considerable distance from Merseyside in a stolen car to carry out “a campaign of burglary”.

They equipped themselves with dark clothing, masks or hoods and one of them team was carrying a crowbar.

Three men had been confronted at the premises in Betws-y-Coed which left the occupants terrified.

Later that morning, an attempt was made to get into Trefnant Stores when £550 worth of damage was caused but no entry was made.

Corness’ DNA was found at the Betws-y-Coed B&B and Nolan’s footwear was matched to the scene at Betws-y-Coed and at the funeral directors.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/09/15/masked-raiders-on-burglary-spree-in-north-wales-55578-31837626/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/09/15/masked-raiders-on-burglary-spree-in-north-wales-55578-31837626/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2012, 08:56:07 pm
I was in Colwyn Bay today, about 12.30pm, walking along Conwy Road just by the Glass Lounge. There were two men and a woman (all early 20s) shouting abuse across the road at a woman leaning out of the window in a second floor flat. There was the usual swearing and threats of violence going back and forth. Dare I mention that they all had Manchester accents? I realise it doesn't fit in with some people's fantasy land view of reality but it certainly happened and I've seen similar incidents many times in both Colwyn Bay & Rhyl.  &shake&

People shouting across the street!!  :o :o :o

The apocalypse is nigh, run to the hills all civilization has vanished
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2012, 09:03:11 pm
You obviously didn't read the post properly. They were behaving very aggressively, the woman on the street said 'I'm going to f***cking smack her in a minute". You might think that sort of behaviour is acceptable but people who have been brought up properly certainly don't.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2012, 09:45:38 pm
Which affected you in no way whatsoever. They weren't shouting at you were they? However If you're ever brave enough to venture out to Colwyn Bay again, I hope those nasty Mancunians have all been locked up and they're committing their unacceptable behavior far away from people who have been "brought up properly"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2012, 09:51:43 pm
Scum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)

Though sadly these ones don't have Liverpool or Manchester accents  :(

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.
Evelyn Waugh parodied the Bullingdon in Decline and Fall as the Bollinger Club and they were no more respected in 2004 when 17 members were arrested accused of destroying one of the rooms at a pub in Fyfield, Oxon.

They were actually quite discreet. They would take a room and then do whatever they wanted – drinking, vomiting and trashing it," said James Delingpole, who was on the outside looking in at Oxford.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2012, 08:50:50 am
Which affected you in no way whatsoever. They weren't shouting at you were they? However If you're ever brave enough to venture out to Colwyn Bay again, I hope those nasty Mancunians have all been locked up and they're committing their unacceptable behavior far away from people who have been "brought up properly"
So you think threats of violence are acceptable? What an odd attitude.

And what about the family with young children that also witnessed it? Is that ok?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2012, 08:51:38 am
Scum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)

Though sadly these ones don't have Liverpool or Manchester accents  :(

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.
Evelyn Waugh parodied the Bullingdon in Decline and Fall as the Bollinger Club and they were no more respected in 2004 when 17 members were arrested accused of destroying one of the rooms at a pub in Fyfield, Oxon.

They were actually quite discreet. They would take a room and then do whatever they wanted – drinking, vomiting and trashing it," said James Delingpole, who was on the outside looking in at Oxford.
Does this have anything to do with North Wales?  ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2012, 10:34:52 am
Which affected you in no way whatsoever. They weren't shouting at you were they? However If you're ever brave enough to venture out to Colwyn Bay again, I hope those nasty Mancunians have all been locked up and they're committing their unacceptable behavior far away from people who have been "brought up properly"

What an absolutely stupid and immature comment.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2012, 11:50:23 am
Scum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)

Though sadly these ones don't have Liverpool or Manchester accents  :(

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.
Evelyn Waugh parodied the Bullingdon in Decline and Fall as the Bollinger Club and they were no more respected in 2004 when 17 members were arrested accused of destroying one of the rooms at a pub in Fyfield, Oxon.

They were actually quite discreet. They would take a room and then do whatever they wanted – drinking, vomiting and trashing it," said James Delingpole, who was on the outside looking in at Oxford.
Does this have anything to do with North Wales?  ???

Yes it does, our prime minister and his friends affect North Wales greatly. Expect to see more 'scum' around as the Government  continues with their benefits cutting crusade.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Paddy on September 16, 2012, 11:53:58 am
Scum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)

Though sadly these ones don't have Liverpool or Manchester accents  :(

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.
Evelyn Waugh parodied the Bullingdon in Decline and Fall as the Bollinger Club and they were no more respected in 2004 when 17 members were arrested accused of destroying one of the rooms at a pub in Fyfield, Oxon.

They were actually quite discreet. They would take a room and then do whatever they wanted – drinking, vomiting and trashing it," said James Delingpole, who was on the outside looking in at Oxford.
Does this have anything to do with North Wales?  ???

I'm guessing that the point B2R is trying to make is that some people who were "brought up properly" are also "scum".
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2012, 11:57:08 am
Which affected you in no way whatsoever. They weren't shouting at you were they? However If you're ever brave enough to venture out to Colwyn Bay again, I hope those nasty Mancunians have all been locked up and they're committing their unacceptable behavior far away from people who have been "brought up properly"

What an absolutely stupid and immature comment.

If you're going to be directly insulting to my comment you should at least have the grace to explain why.
I will stand by the fact that these actions affected DaveR personally in no way whatsoever. I never said the actions of these people were 'acceptable' or not. As I don't generally go around making judgments to what is and isn't acceptable. I let the Police do that, and it seems to me they were not breaking the law. If they were causing a public disturbance then then the Police should, and I believe would have been called.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on September 16, 2012, 03:11:30 pm
Which affected you in no way whatsoever. They weren't shouting at you were they? However If you're ever brave enough to venture out to Colwyn Bay again, I hope those nasty Mancunians have all been locked up and they're committing their unacceptable behavior far away from people who have been "brought up properly"

What an absolutely stupid and immature comment.

If you're going to be directly insulting to my comment you should at least have the grace to explain why.
I will stand by the fact that these actions affected DaveR personally in no way whatsoever. I never said the actions of these people were 'acceptable' or not. As I don't generally go around making judgments to what is and isn't acceptable. I let the Police do that, and it seems to me they were not breaking the law. If they were causing a public disturbance then then the Police should, and I believe would have been called.


I have to disagree with your thinking that they were not breaking the law. From DaveR's post it looks like they were in contravention of Section 5 of the Public Order Act and had the police been in attendance they would have been warned about their language/behaviour and if they persisted they could be arrested.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2012, 03:28:05 pm
 $thanx$

In that case I hope the police were called and they were able to address them and help rectify the problem.
Sadly though I think  with the people behaving in that way they probably have addiction and/or mental health problems where help is much harder to come by.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2012, 04:33:00 pm
Scum

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1542634/Cameron-as-leader-of-the-Slightly-Silly-Party.html)

Though sadly these ones don't have Liverpool or Manchester accents  :(

The Bullingdon modus operandi is to book a restaurant under a false name, smash it up, and throw large amounts of money at the upset owners — a form of behaviour which dates back to Victorian times.
Evelyn Waugh parodied the Bullingdon in Decline and Fall as the Bollinger Club and they were no more respected in 2004 when 17 members were arrested accused of destroying one of the rooms at a pub in Fyfield, Oxon.

They were actually quite discreet. They would take a room and then do whatever they wanted – drinking, vomiting and trashing it," said James Delingpole, who was on the outside looking in at Oxford.
Does this have anything to do with North Wales?  ???

I'm guessing that the point B2R is trying to make is that some people who were "brought up properly" are also "scum".
If he is, then he's missed the point entirely. You can be rich, you can be poor...it doesn't have any bearing on your ability to act in a decent manner. If you're brought up properly, you don't behave like either members of the Bullingdon club OR the people who I saw yesterday. Class really doesn't come into it. It's about having respect for other people and the community around you.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2012, 06:23:56 pm
BTR.   I can't take you seriously as I think that your flippant remarks are made purely to encourage a debate on scum.    You don't have to make judgments on people but everyone is entitled to an opinion but when scum is mentioned you seem to be inconsistent with your definition of scum.
You attack the Bullingdon modus Operandii and quite rightly so in my humble opinion but then you leap to the defence of the scum who are not so well off but equally offensive to the general public by their anti social behaviour.
Anti social behaviour in all walks of life is unacceptable and should be recognised as such or do you think any different?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2012, 07:29:25 pm
BTR.   I can't take you seriously as I think that your flippant remarks are made purely to encourage a debate on scum.    You don't have to make judgments on people but everyone is entitled to an opinion but when scum is mentioned you seem to be inconsistent with your definition of scum.
You attack the Bullingdon modus Operandii and quite rightly so in my humble opinion but then you leap to the defence of the scum who are not so well off but equally offensive to the general public by their anti social behaviour.
Anti social behaviour in all walks of life is unacceptable and should be recognised as such or do you think any different?

Firstly, I certainly did not 'leap to the defense' of anyone! I merely challenged if they should have been attacked in the first place. As I said I don't see that the incident is especially frightening or upsetting to anyone not directly involved in the situation. As to your second point I don't have a 'definition' of scum - but if I did. then that definition would not be aimed at those who are massively unfortunate but aimed at those who make them unfortunate in the first place and whose goal it is to keep them there.

Anti Social behavior is indeed unacceptable, on that we agree. I don't know how to correct that situation but I do know 100% that you do not correct it by calling certain types of people 'scum.' This is what happened in the 1980s when working class football fans were labelled as scum and indeed treated as such, I don't need to say what happened there.

Would I like to encourage a debate on scum? Yes! This is a forum after all $good$ and I think all debate and opinions, not least those that are in opposites to my own, are welcome and very healthy.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 16, 2012, 07:47:49 pm
In Fester's answer to the issue of 'Crime and Punishment' that I outlined some weeks ago, (the points system) there would be no need to differentiate between the social backgrounds of different types of 'scum'

Accepting that anti-social behaviour is wrong, then Mr Cameron and his Bullingdon Club cronies might well be stuck on 2 points.

The protagonists in Colwyn Bay would also be awarded 2 points.

I am unsure which of them would be further along towards the 10 points euthanasia total.

A crime is a crime, a scumbag is a scumbag... and they need to be sorted out.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2012, 08:17:53 pm
Anti Social behavior is indeed unacceptable, on that we agree.
That's not what you said earlier, though? You indicated I should have regarded an incident, in which threats of violence were being issued, as being perfectly acceptable?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 17, 2012, 10:26:24 am
BTR,   I still think that your inane comments and shifting stance on things are done not with any serious conviction but merely to stimulate a debate on an emotive subject. 
Everyone has a set of principals and standards of behaviour and we are entitled to those.
If you find it acceptable for people to behave in a manner described by DaveR when women and children are nearby then that is fine because you are entitled to that opinion.
Why is it though that I still believe that behind your eloquently expressed postings, your own personal standard bar is way above those you propose to champion?     It's a wind up and you've been rumbled.   
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 17, 2012, 10:55:51 am
Hugo is absolutely right. I've been led to believe that B2R likes to try and wind people up on the forum by adopting a  controversial viewpoint.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 17, 2012, 11:11:45 pm
Whether Born to Run has firm convictions on the subject or not, (and knowing him, I believe that he does), I think it makes for very healthy and controversial debate.    The stuff that Forums are built on!

He often argues with me, and infuriates me.... but he never gets infuriated himself.  In fact a wry smile often accompanies his argument.... which is my fault for taking things too seriously.

I still think that there are more scumbags than ever before, and they come in all shapes, sizes, colours, social backgrounds and nationalities.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2012, 08:53:25 pm
Well hello forum friends  $good$

Not had a chance to check in since the weekend but glad I did, seems there is a few things I need to clear up.

First of all thanks to Fester for coming to my aid,  even despite me rubbishing his mad death league idea a few weeks back.
It's nice to know that despite us having (radically!) different opinions. He still has the sense and respect to at least consider mine. Thanks also for noting my even temper, having been a Trade Union rep for almost 5 years I can say that I have seen everything from furious tantrums,  deadly tense silences,  aggressive bullying tactics and most upsetting of all genuine tears of those who have, or may be about to lose their jobs, and through this I have always stayed calm and reasoned throughout. I do believe this has owed much to any success I've had.

Now on to my opinion! And it is my opinion and I promise you it is completely genuine.

First of all thank you Hugo for saying that my postings are eloquent, although in the same sentence you also say they are inane (and I thought it was me who was supposed to be the one contradicting himself? :laugh:)
I really wouldn't waste my time and effort adopting a viewpoint I did not fully agree with just to amuse myself - in fact I couldn't think of anything more sad (except perhaps being a Rangers fan)

You also go on to say, Hugo, that "your own personal standard bar is way above those you propose to champion?"
I must ask you to elaborate on this, as it sounds to me (and I apologize if I'm wrong) That you are saying that people can 'only stick up for their own kind' So this would mean that middle and upper class people couldn't stand up for working class rights (As Tony Benn did admirably) or that Men cannot stand up for Woman's rights, and Whites for Black rights etc - However I'm sure you already know how silly that is so I won't patronize you by pointing out the obvious flaws in this view.

Lastly I would like to say that I very much enjoy this forum and especially the political debate had here - I make no apologies for that - I genuinely relish my views being challenged, and I'd like to thank Dave R and the other admins for including a politics page on here.  I see this to Politics a bit like the 'Wii Fit' is to the Gym - A fun place to practice. Anyone who has played any sport knows that in practice you take a few more risks and attempt shots you might not normally make - If I have done this here and it has led some people to believe that my views are not my own or that I'm out for a 'wind up' then that saddens me.

 So please feel free to call me inane, misguided, rabbel rousing, inconsistent, or anything else you wish but please do not call me insincere . 

Thanks  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 21, 2012, 07:56:41 am
Thanks for the appreciative comment regarding the forum, B2R. In fact, as Fester says, vigorous, informed and logical debate is what this place - or any forum - should be about. Inevitably, behaviour in the streets is bound to invoke passionate responses but I think that's the mark of a healthy forum.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2012, 10:34:21 am
It was interesting reading about your time as a Trade Union rep and that explains why your postings are so well written and thought out.  Some people like debating and I can understand and respect that but it isn't for me.
I haven't suggested that anyone should only speak up for there class, that would be totally wrong and in a civilized society we should speak out when anyone irrespective of their standing behaves or acts in an unacceptable manner.
Your example of Viscount Anthony Neil Wedgewood Benn is a good one.  A man born into a privileged background who became a Labour MP and for many years vigorously defended the rights of the working class, although some may argue that he was one of the reasons why the Labour Party was thrown into the political wilderness for so long.
In Tony Benn's time there were three classes of people Upper, Middle and working class but the present generation has produced another class.   That is Scum Class, those parasites of society who are prepared to live off the backs of the working class people. Those people who don't want to work and behave in an offensive and anti social manner and continue to do so because they think that it is their human right to do so and that the majority of people cannot do anything to correct their behaviour.
I accept that you are genuine and although your postings are well written they can still be inane and that is not a contradiction in terms, it is just my opinion of what you have said.     
You rightly condemn the Bullingdon Modus Operandi for their loutish behaviour but yet you think that it is acceptable for people to behave in the manner described by DaveR when there are women and children passing by in the streets.  I find that contradictory and in fact slightly bizarre.
If that is acceptable to you that's fine and that's your opinion and we can agree to differ.
I did ask a question previously of you but do not appear to have had a response and will ask it again as I am interested in your response:-
Is it fair that anyone on benefits should get more money than the average working person will receive?       I would appreciate a Yes or No answer rather that a Politicians one where they tend to fudge the answer with a non committal one.       
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 21, 2012, 10:58:26 am
Thanks for your responses Hugo & Ian

I am actually at work at so cannot write anything in depth (People who take advantage of those good enough to employ them by taking advantage is a massive bug bear of mine also)

But I will also Hugo's question quickly, I'm sorry I must have missed it before.

No it is not right that somebody on benfeits should earn more than the average working person, this is way the minimum wage must go up, Benefits can't be cut as despite what the press may have you beleive,  they are set at just enough to allow people to survive, not lead any kind of lavish lifestyle as you may think. It's a complicated issue though and hopefully we will ahve more time to talk about it more in the future
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 21, 2012, 07:38:42 pm
I agree with.............................. EVERYONE !
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 25, 2012, 07:13:09 pm
I agree with BTR that no one should be better off on benefits and that the minimum wage should be reviewed more often.
I also think that total benefits should be capped at no more than £26K which is quite generous really.
£26K tax free for doing absolutely nothing isn't bad and I bet it's a lot more than most Union members receive for working full time.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 03, 2012, 09:09:26 am
A MAN lost his temper during an argument and hurled a pan of boiling water over his partner.

Victim Helen Pritchard screamed in pain and pulled her top off as she ran out of the house to get help.

She was rushed to hospital and was treated with water spray and lotions and was in great pain for several weeks, Mold Crown Court heard.

Peter Edwards, 44, of Pant Glas, Johnstown near Wrexham, admitted inflicting grievous bodily harm – but escaped immediate custody.

Judge Niclas Parry told Edwards that the serious incident was the culmination of hours of drinking.

He said that the defendant’s earlier behaviour had amounted to bullying and intimidation.

“You abused her, you smashed her phone, you told her you hated her and then threw boiling water over her.

“The injuries you caused resulted in weeks of discomfort and pain and to a loss of wages,” said Judge Parry.

Edwards had a previous conviction for domestic violence upon the same victim.

Edwards received a 51-week prison sentence, suspended for two years, was placed on supervision, and sent on an integrated domestic violence course.

He was ordered to carry out 200 hours unpaid work, pay £1,000 compensation and £500 prosecution costs.

Judge Parry also made a restraining order under which he must not approach her for the next five years.

David Mainstone, prosecuting, said the couple had been together for ten years. She was a mother of three and the youngest child was that of the defendant.

Mark Connor, defending, said that his client was deeply and genuinely remorseful.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/10/02/wrexham-man-hurled-boiling-water-over-partner-55578-31945438/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2012/10/02/wrexham-man-hurled-boiling-water-over-partner-55578-31945438/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on October 03, 2012, 11:43:06 pm
Anybody watching the documentary :o?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on October 03, 2012, 11:52:53 pm
NO!

More importantly, where were you at Darts last night?.... when you were sorely needed!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on October 03, 2012, 11:58:26 pm
Not well - hence why I still can't sleep at this ungodly hour  :(
Last night was the one I was looking forward to as well
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on October 04, 2012, 01:20:57 am
The plaque outside Jimmy Savile's former residence in Scarborough has been vandalised, see below.

I suppose it was inevitable.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 11, 2012, 07:05:53 pm
I've removed and hived off the remaining posts in this topic by Pentan.  I'm also instituting a ban Pentan as a consequence of infringement of forum regs and general attitude.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Tosh on October 11, 2012, 07:55:51 pm
I think pentan was the one on Oscar's a few weeks ago who was getting potty mouthed and ranting about Lewis Carroll.
Good riddance, thanks Ian. $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 11, 2012, 09:05:04 pm
A wise and much appreciated move, thanks.   He may be back in another guise so watch out! >>>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on October 11, 2012, 09:36:37 pm
Damn, I was hoping you would let him carry on.... give him enough rope and all that...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: snowcap on October 12, 2012, 12:08:13 am
he will be missed,   like tooth ache
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 12, 2012, 07:00:35 am
I've removed and hived off the remaining posts in this topic by Pentan.  I'm also instituting a ban Pentan as a consequence of infringement of forum regs and general attitude.

You'll be accused of censorship next!   L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on October 12, 2012, 08:21:40 am
Thankyou Ian-- He was making himself as bad as the accused.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 18, 2012, 06:39:46 pm
I was reading in the Daily Mirror yesterday about a shameless father of 12 who finally got an ASBO after his legal challenge failed when he was arrested for pouring  a carton of juice over his partner's head outside Court.
This 41 year old has never worked and subjected his neighbours to a campaign of drunken behaviour and parties.
The two year order bans him from using abusive language and being drunk in Burnley but not in Nelson where the family moved for a "fresh start"

People can have as many children as they want but I wonder if this Parasite would have had so many if the State didn't fund each child? Perhaps he would have had to find a job if that was the case?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 18, 2012, 06:58:21 pm
Of course the money he gets all goes to fund his drinking, so what is the point of an allowance for even one child?  Just reduce the level of tax for the first two children if people work.  This would save a fortune in administering the benefits.   And only give benefit for the first two children if they don't work.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 18, 2012, 11:03:34 pm
Well said Yorkie and I'll drink to that.        Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2012, 07:49:19 am
Child benefit is something of an anachronism. I remember being (pleasantly) surprised when we had our first, to find the government were actually paying us for our kids. But I doubt there's any real place for it, now; and it's still something of an unwelcome burden on childless couples and individuals.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 14, 2012, 07:28:51 pm
Cllr Bob Squire says bedsits are attracting sex offenders in Colwyn Bay

Dec 13 2012 North Wales Weekly News

CHILDREN and young people in Colwyn Bay are at risk due to the number of sex offenders being attracted by cheap bedsit accommodation says a concerned councillor.

Following father and son, Barry Ford, 64, and Craig McKellar, 31, of Colwyn Bay being sentenced to 18 and 10 years, for rape and a sexual offences this week, Cllr Bob Squire has warned the town’s large number of bedsits and flats owned by absentee landlords is attracting more undesirables.

A year ago a Weekly News investigation revealed there were more convicted sex offenders living in Conwy than any other county in North Wales - 136 of 528 (at that time).

Now Cllr Bob Squire says not enough is being done to stop an inpouring of drifters bringing their own social problems to the area as large Victorian homes are being let out as houses of multiple occupation (HMOs).

The housing issue in Colwyn Bay is being addressed by a council-led Welsh Government funded Masterplan which is supposed also look at the social-economic elements, but Cllr Squire says it’s time to get ride of potentially problematic properties.

Referring to the latest conviction Cllr Squire said more needed to be done in Colwyn Bay, and that Conwy needed to tackle the problem with policies.

“I’m not at all surprised by this, a case like this was always going to happen,” he said.

“I’ve been saying it for 10 years about the number of undesirables coming into the area.

“I’ve proved that we’ve got numerous sex offenders, the police admitted to me some time ago – I’ve seen figures of the number of sex offenders we’ve got coming in.

“They are coming in because of the number of flats and bedsits, we’ve got thousands of bedsits in Conwy and a lot in the Colwyn Bay area.

“Because of the type of accommodation available, there are agents acting for absentee landlords who will take anybody just to get the income in- and that includes people from prison and sex offenders. And it is going to get worse because of the housing benefit changes they will be moving here even more.

He added; “I’m heartedly fed up of trying to address the problem- nobody is doing anything about it. All it needs is policy of removal of a couple of properties of HMOs.”

“The Welsh Government has already allocated finance, and has said regeneration in Colwyn Bay must include housing removal by getting rid of a number of HMOs and it never happened. I think we were failed by the consultants who came in as a whole, that is my opinion.

“I’m worried a about children and young people as a grandfather of nine and six of them are in this area. There are a lot of sex offenders who have come to the area, a disproportionate amount. A case like this was always going to happen.”

Conwy County Council declined to comment on the matter.

North Wales Police had not responded by the time the Weekly News went to press.

http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/12/13/cllr-bob-squire-says-bedsits-are-attracting-sex-offenders-in-colwyn-bay-55243-32415123/ (http://www.northwalesweeklynews.co.uk/conwy-county-news/local-conwy-news/2012/12/13/cllr-bob-squire-says-bedsits-are-attracting-sex-offenders-in-colwyn-bay-55243-32415123/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 14, 2012, 08:12:40 pm
Cllr Bob Squire seems to be tarring a lot of people with the same brush with absolutely no proof that people coming to the area are, or ever have been sex or other offenders.  Who does he consider is an undesirable, or not wanted in the area.  Sweeping statements such as he has made are detrimental to ever getting a balanced and integrated society.  Does he not consider that some past offenders have reformed?   Perhaps he would be better  sorting out more action to rehabilitate than condemn these people, rather than spreading scare stories to the rest of the community.

Get off you're high horse Squire and do some real work for the local people.   WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 14, 2012, 11:40:16 pm
Has he upset you in the past, Yorkie? In my experience, he;s one of the hardest working and most respected Councillors.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 15, 2012, 09:55:06 am
Has he upset you in the past, Yorkie? In my experience, he;s one of the hardest working and most respected Councillors.  $good$

He may be hard working but is he directing his efforts in the best way?

My comment was based purely on the quotation posted by you from the NWWN.   No doubt he does good in other areas of concern.  Never met the bloke but we did both work for the same company!  ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 15, 2012, 10:49:28 am
Has he upset you in the past, Yorkie? In my experience, he;s one of the hardest working and most respected Councillors.  $good$

He may be hard working but is he directing his efforts in the best way?

My comment was based purely on the quotation posted by you from the NWWN.   No doubt he does good in other areas of concern.  Never met the bloke but we did both work for the same company!  ;)
I think he's absolutely right. Colwyn Bay may be having millions spent on it for physical regeneration, but it will never be a success until the social problems caused by importing large numbers of problem people from other parts of the UK are tackled.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 15, 2012, 11:12:24 am
Has he upset you in the past, Yorkie? In my experience, he;s one of the hardest working and most respected Councillors.  $good$

He may be hard working but is he directing his efforts in the best way?

My comment was based purely on the quotation posted by you from the NWWN.   No doubt he does good in other areas of concern.  Never met the bloke but we did both work for the same company!  ;)

I think he's absolutely right. Colwyn Bay may be having millions spent on it for physical regeneration, but it will never be a success until the social problems caused by importing large numbers of problem people from other parts of the UK are tackled.

And, of course, you know that they are being "imported", if so that's the, Council's own fault.   And  I presume you also have proof that these large numbers (exactly how many?) are "problem" people? 

Give us some facts and figures to substantiate these matters.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 15, 2012, 11:35:46 am
Has he upset you in the past, Yorkie? In my experience, he;s one of the hardest working and most respected Councillors.  $good$

He may be hard working but is he directing his efforts in the best way?

My comment was based purely on the quotation posted by you from the NWWN.   No doubt he does good in other areas of concern.  Never met the bloke but we did both work for the same company!  ;)

I think he's absolutely right. Colwyn Bay may be having millions spent on it for physical regeneration, but it will never be a success until the social problems caused by importing large numbers of problem people from other parts of the UK are tackled.

And, of course, you know that they are being "imported", if so that's the, Council's own fault.   And  I presume you also have proof that these large numbers (exactly how many?) are "problem" people? 

Give us some facts and figures to substantiate these matters.
Why would the Council have any say in the matter? They are being imported in by private Landlords, the only CCBC involvement occurs when they are forced to re-home them when the landlord kicks them out for antisocial behaviour etc. Go for a walk around Colwyn Bay, Lawson Road, Greenfield Road, and you'll soon meet some of them. When was the last time you walked down Lawson Road, Yorkie? I walk through Colwyn Bay every week, I see them at first hand....can you say them same?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 15, 2012, 11:57:39 am
I get about Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Abergele, Prestatyn, and Llandudno and have a pretty good grasp of the local demographics.  So to answer your question, "Yes, and recently."  Whilst I will concede that CB has had problems in the past, it has improved over recent years, and providing that trend continues we are on the right path.  However, it is up to those in Authority to make positive rather than negative moves to ensure it continues.  Criticism of the ongoing situation by Councillors does little to assist integration of incomers and only goes to create doubts or anxiety in the local community. 

I have lived in this area, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno, since 1987, after a previous couple of years in the 1970s, so am not new to the area.  I have many friends and acquaintances locally and I think my view is fairly representative of theirs. 

Bob Squire could, I'm sure, be more positive in his outlook and put across an improving, rather than declining, projection.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on December 16, 2012, 03:44:34 pm
I think that we are talking of small minorities here and each town will have a certain amount of scum to put up with but to say that scum are not being imported into Colwyn Bay is turning a blind eye on the problem.
Advertisements in Prisons or local English  newspapers by the owners of these HMO's aimed at attracting these undesirables to the area with a promise of a better quality of life is just worsening an already bad situation.    The owners of these HMO's are only interested in making profits and although they are mainly to blame for the current problem some blame must go to CCBC for allowing these HMO's in the first place.
I've lived in the Bay for many years but have seen a decline in recent years with HMO's, drug centres and one of the busiest places I've seen is the Probation Office.
Cllr Bob Squire is right in speaking out and I wish that other Councillors would follow suit before it is too late.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on December 16, 2012, 07:23:31 pm
"some blame must go to CCBC for allowing these HMO's in the first place"

Article 6 of the universal declaration of human rights says

Right to recognition as a person before the
law:
You have a right to be accepted everywhere as a person
according to law

Article 13, Right to free movement:
1) You have the right to come and go as you wish
within your country.

2) You have the right to leave your country to go to
another one, and you should be able to return to
your country if you want.

and finally

Article 30, Freedom from interference in these human
rights:
No person, group or government anywhere in the world
should do anything to destroy these rights.



What do you suggest we do with these "undesirables?"
Or do you not care as long as they are as far away from your doorstep?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on December 16, 2012, 07:25:21 pm
Also is it just "imported" scum you want getting rid of? Are home grown undesirables welcome to stay?
Or are all local people upstanding citizens of the community?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 16, 2012, 07:33:23 pm
Another read of Bob Squire's comments may lead one to think that he has never heard of The Human Rights Act or the various Articles thereof.   Are Councillors not trained in their duties and obligations prior to being let loose on the Public?
 >>>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2012, 07:37:26 am
I seem to remember that HMOs have long been a problem for CB, but it's probably much harder to eliminate than to refuse conversion permission in the first instance. It's a tough issue to resolve, however, for all the reasons already posted. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 17, 2012, 08:07:15 am
Also is it just "imported" scum you want getting rid of? Are home grown undesirables welcome to stay?
Or are all local people upstanding citizens of the community?

I don't know if you have children, but if we assume that you do, would you be happy to have Barry Ford and his son move in next door to you?

"Following father and son, Barry Ford, 64, and Craig McKellar, 31, of Colwyn Bay being sentenced to 18 and 10 years, for rape and a sexual offences this week, Cllr Bob Squire has warned the town’s large number of bedsits and flats owned by absentee landlords is attracting more undesirables."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on December 17, 2012, 02:28:05 pm
WOW!  I'm completely overwhelmed by the revelations quoted in those Human Rights Acts.    It just sounds too good to be true
Article 13, Right to free movement:
1) You have the right to come and go as you wish
within your country.
There's got to be a catch somewhere.    Does this mean that the silent majority now have the right to go to a nice place of their choice to live, and have their rent and mortgage paid for them?     If it doesn't then it does seem a bit one sided.
To cope with any imported, undesirable scum the infrastructure must already be in place to deal with their needs but at the moment the Police,Probation Service, Drug clinics, GP's, Hospitals, Benefit Agencies and so on are struggling to cope with the status quo.
Wouldn't it be be better to restrict the HMO's and spend the resources on the present lot by educating and rehabilitating them and even encourage them to look for work?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 17, 2012, 03:06:54 pm
Spot on, Hugo. We always hear about 'Rights' but never anything about 'Responsibilities'.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2012, 06:45:14 pm
I suspect part of the problem is in defining an entire group as 'scum'. Of course there are going to be evil people; sexual predators, many politicians and some merchant bankers, for instance, gambling without thought for the futures of older people. But 'scum' is an emotive term, which fails to distinguish between those who are genuinely evil and those who simply stray.  You're discussing a small minority of ne'er do wells, yet the greatest misery is often wreaked by those in power: financial or political, on those trying to make ends meet on devalued pensions following the criminal negligence of bankers or - even worse - the actual criminal acts of US banks that have, collectively, brought about the single greatest depression the world has ever known. Compared with them, even the actions of the local thugs seem comparatively minor.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 17, 2012, 07:33:07 pm
I suspect part of the problem is in defining an entire group as 'scum'. Of course there are going to be evil people; sexual predators, many politicians and some merchant bankers, for instance, gambling without thought for the futures of older people. But 'scum' is an emotive term, which fails to distinguish between those who are genuinely evil and those who simply stray.  You're discussing a small minority of ne'er do wells, yet the greatest misery is often wreaked by those in power: financial or political, on those trying to make ends meet on devalued pensions following the criminal negligence of bankers or - even worse - the actual criminal acts of US banks that have, collectively, brought about the single greatest depression the world has ever known. Compared with them, even the actions of the local thugs seem comparatively minor.
I don't think anyone is defining an entire group as 'scum'? There is good and bad everywhere. Some people are decent, some people are scum, regardless of their walk of life. They could be on the dole, they could be a Banker.

But, in the case of Colwyn Bay, it's a fact that released criminals from the North West of England often end up living in bedsits in the town, thereby creating a concentrated problem that is dragging the town down. Ignoring that fact won't make it go away or deal with the problem.

At the end of the day, I'm on the side of the decent people in this country, who just get on with life and work hard, without expecting everything for nothing. They are the silent majority. We could all stay in bed whining that 'it's not fair', 'I've had a lot of bad luck' etc etc. Guess what...life isn't fair...deal with it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 18, 2012, 07:42:43 am
I take your point, Dave, but what I'm saying, I suppose, is that we tend to  describe as 'scum' only those who apparently do things which appear bad but which in fact may actually be a consequence of the way in which our society deals with its social deviants. Our society is still too orientated towards rewarding wealth, while we tend to view those without means as deserving of punishment and usually as having brought it all on themselves. In terms of fairness, it's true life isn't fair - I agree - but remember that a recently released prisoner will often have an enormous battle on their hands to get a job at all. I'm not defending them, but I am saying that rehabilitation to society should be an achievable aim, rather than an impossibility.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 18, 2012, 09:37:09 am
I've always said the criminal justice system needs to be better organised in filtering out those capable of rehabilitation from the hardcore criminals. Those capable of rehabilitation should certainly be given every assistance.

Every so often, a couple of people who have just appeared at the Magistrates Court in Llandudno will get on the bus to return home. They're usually pretty loud, so everyone else on the bus can hear what they're saying. Their attitude is generally one of regarding being caught/punished as a minor occupational hazard - they regard petty crime as an acceptable way of making their way through life, as its easier than getting a job. I've personally overheard them saying this on more than one occasion. Their conversations revolve around alcohol, drugs and the petty crimes they've committed. What will it take to steer them back onto the 'straight & narrow'?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 18, 2012, 11:00:16 am
What will it take to steer them back onto the 'straight & narrow'?

Bring back the BIRCH and let them be humiliated with a Public beating.   >?>??
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on December 18, 2012, 03:04:02 pm
What will it take to steer them back onto the 'straight & narrow'?

Bring back the BIRCH and let them be humiliated with a Public beating.   >?>??

I would like to volunteer to administer said thrashing!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on December 18, 2012, 04:40:30 pm
But the horse has done nothing wrong! You want this.... $smack$ $smack$  ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 18, 2012, 06:00:38 pm
This makes for interesting reading (http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html)....
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on December 18, 2012, 06:39:02 pm
This makes for interesting reading (http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html)....

A touching and poignant article.
Prison may not be the answer, hospital may not be the answer.... but central to any solution must be the safety of innocent people first and foremost.
As soon as any pathological symptoms such as these become evident, they must be kept away from mainstream society.... at ANY cost.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 18, 2012, 07:41:01 pm
central to any solution must be the safety of innocent people first and foremost.
As soon as any pathological symptoms such as these become evident, they must be kept away from mainstream society.... at ANY cost.
Agreed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 19, 2012, 07:02:52 am
Quote
As soon as any pathological symptoms such as these become evident, they must be kept away from mainstream society.... at ANY cost.

Which is fine, just so long as the criminal justice system never makes any mistakes.  And that seems rather far off.  (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/plebgate-uncovered-what-we-still-dont-know-8424726.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Michael on December 19, 2012, 05:27:21 pm
   I've just read the last dozen or so posts. I'm not taking any sides because Ive been on both sides myself at one time or another. However, a few years ago I had to appear in Colwyn Bay court. Rather than wait my turn outside I went into the cour. t and listening to the proceedings. Obviously I saw the defendants and the legal people in the Court.
  So, it came to the lunch break. Now what am I going to do for the next hour?
  I wandered across the road and into the drinking area of the Royal.  I was soon joined with one, two, three at least defendants. Although their cases were separate, they all knew each other.
   But, they got a bit loud, and the next minute I heard a strong superior voice coming out of the "eating" area. That area was full of lawyers all clutching gin and tonics.     True    No comment   Mike
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on December 19, 2012, 06:38:36 pm
That reminded me of this joke Mike, the scum are out there and come  in different guises :-
   
Trust a fellow officer?
A defense attorney was cross-examining a police officer during a felony trial -- it went like this:

Q: Officer, did you see my client fleeing the scene?

A: No sir, but I subsequently observed a person matching the description of the offender running several blocks away.

Q: Officer, who provided this description?

A: The officer who responded to the scene.

Q: A fellow officer provided the description of this so-called offender. Do you trust your fellow officers?

A: Yes sir, with my life.

Q: With your life? Let me ask you this then officer, do you have a locker room in the police station, a room where you change your clothes in preparation for your daily duties?

A: Yes sir, we do.

Q: And do you have a locker in that room?

A: Yes sir, I do.

Q: And do you have a lock on your locker?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Now why is it, officer, if you trust your fellow officers with your life, that you find it necessary to lock your locker in a room you share with those officers?

A: You see sir, we share the building with a court complex, and sometimes defence attorneys have been known to walk through that room.



Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Tosh on December 19, 2012, 06:46:02 pm
I did jury service in 2010 at Caernarfon for two weeks.
At lunchtime you can either sit next to the defendant in the court cafe or stand next to him or her at the chippy up the road.
Afterwards you can sit on the wall outside while they and their families sit there and smoke their roll ups.
The silly things about this are the fact that the court is only a few years old and there are no seperate facilities and once the defendant is back in the court he or she is sitting inside a bullet proof room so that he or she cannot attack you, duh.
The two cases I sat on were both local defendants from the Bay and Abergele, I have seen the Bay one several times over the past 2 years.
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on December 19, 2012, 10:23:18 pm
I did jury service in Bradford about 5 years ago.
I was the foreman of the jury for the full two weeks, on about 6 different cases.

On the last day, I had to stand up and announce the guilty verdict on a six-foot seven monster of a man, who reacted by threatening to kill me as he was led away.

I was shaken a little, but reassured by the judge who said that this happened all the time, and I needn't worry.

2 hours later, I left the court building and was promptly grabbed by the monstrous convicted man, who had just been RELEASED by that same judge, to be sentenced later.
He slammed me against a wall, stuck his forehead in my face and said that ''if he missed the birth of his next kid whilst in prison, he would kill me''
2 police officers nearby looked conveniently away from the furore, which was only broken up by other jurors and members of the attackers own family.
So, beware anyone who thinks that such proceedings are conducted in a safe and professional manner!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 20, 2012, 07:49:57 am
Quote
He slammed me against a wall, stuck his forehead in my face and said that ''if he missed the birth of his next kid whilst in prison, he would kill me''

So what happened?  Did he kill you?   :)

On a more serious note it's always surprised me that they don't separate defendants and witnesses more effectively.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on December 20, 2012, 08:27:55 am
I did jury service in Bradford about 5 years ago.


Of course, once one gets to a certain age, one is exempt from Jury Service!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Michael on December 20, 2012, 12:00:35 pm
   Can I break forum rules and write a post addressed in particular to another member? Well, here goes.

   Fester ---- I have seen a few films around jury rooms. I always understood that they agreed amongst themselves who the foreman should be. They normally pick a dominant personality,  not afraid to lead the way and express his own opinions without fear.
    But --- you?  Foreman for two weeks?  We all know you as being a rather shy person, one who sits in the corner peacefully listening but has to be forced to give an opinion.  Never, ever dominating anything or anyone. How on earth did they pick you?
            Lots of love    Mike
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 20, 2012, 12:46:08 pm
We all know you as being a rather shy person, one who sits in the corner peacefully listening but has to be forced to give an opinion.
?{}?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on December 20, 2012, 01:05:36 pm
Quote
He slammed me against a wall, stuck his forehead in my face and said that ''if he missed the birth of his next kid whilst in prison, he would kill me''

So what happened?  Did he kill you?   :)

On a more serious note it's always surprised me that they don't separate defendants and witnesses more effectively.

Well, about a year later, I was in a pub (called The City Vaults) with work colleagues when he came in!
I saw him from about 20 yards away, and immediately averted my gaze.  Z@@

But, too late... he made his way over, put his hands on me and said, 'how you doing fella, I know you from somewhere''

I acknowledged him, but he became more insistent.. ''where do I know you from?'' he pressed.... ''I'm sure you used to work with me or something''

'Could be', I replied.... edging away.

''Well, I'll place you in a while, never forget a face me... we have some unfinished business I reckon, I'll come back over when I do''  $angry1$

I disappeared back into the huddle of my work colleagues, explained what had transpired... and was spirited away.

For some reason, I never found myself in The City Vaults again.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on December 20, 2012, 02:06:03 pm
A lucky escape!  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 21, 2012, 07:49:58 am
Quote
A lucky escape!  :o

For whom, exactly?    WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on December 21, 2012, 09:45:02 am
Quote
A lucky escape!  :o

For whom, exactly?    WWW WWW WWW

 :laugh: :laugh: .... Ian, subtle....   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on December 21, 2012, 11:28:33 am
 I*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 02, 2013, 09:16:01 pm
Now, after Savile, Freddy Starr and Gary Glitter.... ..BBC News reports that Jim Davidson has been arrested in connection with sexual offences.

I wish it was possible to bet on 'who next' as given the personalities so far, it would be much easier than picking horses!

I shall qualify that by saying these are ALLEGATIONS, nothing proven!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 07, 2013, 03:37:10 pm
I was waiting in the checkout line at the old Aldi shop in the Colwyn Bay Centre when a security guard passed by escorting a potential Jeremy Kyle style teenager out of the shop.
The yob was swearing like a trooper and remained under close observation by the security guard as he wouldn't leave the area by the door. He was still there when I left the shop and was making a nuisance of himself but I could see that other security guards were with him so I just walked away then.
Obnoxious, anti social, unemployable scum that walk amongst us and yet some people would think it's ok if it wasn't directed at them            :rage: 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 07, 2013, 03:58:47 pm
He needs a poke in the eye, with a sharp stick.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 07, 2013, 04:32:19 pm
He needs a poke in the eye, with a sharp stick.

From what was seen, and described, we automatically assume that the youth was the offender.   I just wonder if the fault could actually have been with the security chap!    :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 07, 2013, 04:47:20 pm
Yorkie, that very suggestion is ludicrous.
I think Hugo made it very clear that the chap involved was a TEENAGER.
Surely that is proof enough to convict him!  :laugh:

They ALL need a poke in the eye, including my own when she was a teenager.  It does them good!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 07, 2013, 04:50:22 pm
You have just repeated the thoughts of the Security chap!   Q.E.D.    :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 07, 2013, 04:59:16 pm
He needs a poke in the eye, with a sharp stick.

From what was seen, and described, we automatically assume that the youth was the offender.   I just wonder if the fault could actually have been with the security chap!    :D

Believe me the fault was obviously with the yob, the security guard was only slightly built and said very little but when the other guards arrived I knew the shop security guard would be ok.
The podgy youth didn't look like he needed feeding but a knuckle butty would have soon quelled his appetite.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 07, 2013, 05:07:00 pm
Ha Ha... a knuckle butty!

It would have done him the world of good.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 07, 2013, 05:35:24 pm
Ha Ha... a knuckle butty!

It would have done him the world of good.

Or even a Glasgow Kiss!    :-*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 19, 2013, 10:42:04 am
The full sorry story of the 'Forces For Good' theft:
http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/Published/C00000176/M00003615/AI00040836/ (http://modgoveng.conwy.gov.uk/Published/C00000176/M00003615/AI00040836/)$ForcesforGoodCoveringReport.doc.pdf
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 19, 2013, 05:10:31 pm
Unable to establish site.  "Directory listing denied"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 19, 2013, 06:32:02 pm
The $ in the link is confusing the forum software, try this:
http://goo.gl/dLQP2 (http://goo.gl/dLQP2)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 19, 2013, 08:23:45 pm
Thanks Dave.   An interesting report indicating just how easy it was to pull the wool over the eyes of the hierarchy of CCBC.   Makes one wonder what other mis-appropriations have taken place in the past.   It also gives great concern for the future.

Hey, ho!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 21, 2013, 10:48:11 am
Drunk joyrider took ambulance rapid response car while it was on 999 call
Mar 20 2013
 
A DRUNK joyrider drove off in an ambulance rapid response vehicle while its driver was on an emergency call saving a man’s life.

John Heesom, 23, – who had downed nine pints of lager and some shots – was walking home when he noticed the Ford Focus estate car in full ambulance service livery parked with its ignition keys still inside.

The driver had been called to an ill man’s house, had rushed in with a defibrillator and had called out an ambulance crew to take the patient to hospital.

But when the ambulance crew arrived, the rapid response vehicle had disappeared from outside the house on Hope Street in Caergwrle, Flintshire, in the early hours of Sunday, February 24.

Heesom jumped in and drove off – but hit a kerb and then drove on the rim of one of the wheels as the tyre disintegrated.

He abandoned the vehicle, fully equipped with life-saving equipment, and tried to set it alight.

North Wales Ambulance Service had to write-off the vehicle because of the smoke damage.

Many of the items of equipment and drugs inside also had to be scrapped.


The incident left the ambulance service was more than £5,000 out of pocket.

Heesom, of ye Old Talbot Inn at Cymau between Mold and Wrexham, admitted aggravated vehicle taking, drink driving and a driving licence offence.

Sentence was adjourned but he was warned at Flintshire magistrates’ court at Mold that he could face immediate imprisonment.

An interim driving ban was imposed and he was bailed to his brother’s address in the Runcorn area.

He was told that it was an aggravating feature that the vehicle was an emergency vehicle which was actually being used in a life-saving situation at the time.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2013/03/20/drunk-joyrider-took-ambulance-rapid-response-car-while-it-was-on-999-call-55578-33026392/ (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2013/03/20/drunk-joyrider-took-ambulance-rapid-response-car-while-it-was-on-999-call-55578-33026392/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 21, 2013, 11:04:35 am
Total scum! Another oxygen thief!  $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2013, 11:07:37 am
In cases like this, the scum will get a driving ban of perhaps under 2 years but that doesn't matter to a lot of them as they drive when banned anyway. 
Perhaps an increased prison term would be preferable.
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 22, 2013, 11:45:05 am
In a case like that, Hugo, you're dealing with a criminal underclass and almost certainly a recidivist. Hard to know what to do, really, although Siberia seems a decent option...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2013, 12:29:39 pm
I'll second that Ian.     $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 22, 2013, 09:59:30 pm
I'm surprised that Born to Run hasn't waded in here to chastise us for such extreme views.

Surely this misunderstood chap should be invited to a meeting whereby he can receive counseling as to where his urge to offend originates from.
Perhaps a teacher didn't compliment him enough at the age of 9, when he came next to bottom for a change in the class spelling test?
Perhaps he has a deep seated phobia of paramedics, through no fault of his own, (worth a disability benefit in my opinion)

If he does not concede the error of his ways in this meeting, then surely he should be encouraged to sit on the naughty step for 5 minutes, before being whisked off on holiday to Tenerife at taxpayers expense.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on March 22, 2013, 11:42:05 pm
Nothing extreme about wanting rid of wastes of space like him!  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2013, 12:04:52 pm
I think that BTR must be a reformed character now and seen the error of his inane postings.   
In actual fact though he's a conscientious employee and only posted rubbish to wind people up and prolong an emotive debate but now that he's been rumbled his game is well and truly over.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 23, 2013, 03:52:11 pm
I think that BTR must be a reformed character now and seen the error of his inane postings.   
In actual fact though he's a conscientious employee and only posted rubbish to wind people up and prolong an emotive debate but now that he's been rumbled his game is well and truly over.

I hope not!  He's in my darts team, and we have a match on Tuesday!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2013, 05:26:56 pm
Hope that he's more accurate with his darts than he is with his judgement then Fester.      Z**    Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 28, 2013, 09:16:52 pm
It seems that Batman is alive and well, and fighting crime...... IN BRADFORD!!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9907446/Yorkshires-Batman-stuns-officers-in-Bradford-as-he-brings-wanted-man-into-police-station.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9907446/Yorkshires-Batman-stuns-officers-in-Bradford-as-he-brings-wanted-man-into-police-station.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 14, 2013, 10:08:45 am
Interesting scam with some local involvement:
http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2011/03/fraud-lotto-firm-information-t.html (http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/investigations/2011/03/fraud-lotto-firm-information-t.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 14, 2013, 10:59:25 am
Still appear to be operating a syndicate membership system on line under "BigFatLottos" with an 01492 telephone number listed for cancelling!

Looks like a very similar operation!   ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 16, 2013, 05:40:24 pm
What on Earth is this country becoming when police are patrolling our streets looking like mobile scrap dealers.  This is Luton!   >>>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on May 17, 2013, 08:57:22 am
I presume there's not much chasing of fleeing suspects there, then?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Michael on May 17, 2013, 06:24:42 pm
   I remember reading about a judge acting in a court reprimanded a copper for appearing as a witness in his court dressed in this fashion. When spoken to by the judge he replied that it was his normal style of working dress.
  In fairness to the Judge he said something to the effect "not in this court it isn't"
"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on May 30, 2013, 01:06:54 pm
Mark Bridger found guilty of murdering 5 year old April Jones.
A man who spent his life drinking 20+ cans of lager a day whilst living on benefits. That's what's wrong with this country.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Jack on May 30, 2013, 01:36:55 pm
The cost of his benefits will pale into insignificance compared to the cost of keeping this scumbag alive and in five star luxury in gaol for the rest of his days.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2013, 01:53:22 pm
Bring back the DEATH PENALTY.  The chances nowadays of an innocent person being executed is next to impossible, unlike some years ago when it was abolished.  Modern forensics and DNA testing give a "proof positive" situation.  No need for appeals and retrials or costly encarceration, and above all, A POSITIVE DETTERENT to those contemplating committing criminal acts. 

Let the debate commence!
  ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 30, 2013, 02:29:22 pm
Trouble is it does not deter them!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2013, 05:39:40 pm
Trouble is it does not deter them!

The death Penalty was repealed in 1965, 50 years ago, and since then crime and terrorrism has changed dramatically.  I am sure that many of the gun toting youngsters would think twice about going out armed if they realised they were flirting with their lives.  Prison nowadays is like living in a holiday camp for 25 years, as recently exposed on TV.

I think the families of those whose lives are terminated prematurely, would like to see an eye for an eye, and the ultimate penalty reinstated.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 30, 2013, 06:03:12 pm
I doubt that it would deter suicide bombers or the two who murdered Lee Rigby then waited for the Police. I'm not saying these lunatics deserve to live, but how to you deter a madman who is not thinking logically?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2013, 06:23:54 pm
I think we are all intelligent enough to know that one can never achieve 100% success, and all we can do is use the best endeavours available to minimise the possibilities of future incidents. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on May 30, 2013, 06:26:03 pm
Where is this "We" coming in from? I don't want to have any part of your state murder thank you. Luckily neither does the state which is a good thing all round.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2013, 07:56:55 pm
Where is this "We" coming in from? I don't want to have any part of your state murder thank you. Luckily neither does the state which is a good thing all round.

We is a common term to use in the language when making general remarks.  Those that want can agree, those that don't, can always put up a counter argument, it's up to them.  I respect your view.

So you are quite happy for idiots to continue burning down houses with people in them, murdering young children, shooting soldiers and Police, killing old folk for no reason, bombing public areas and committing homicide without concern?   

State murder?   Justifiable homicide I would call it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on May 30, 2013, 08:31:27 pm
I don't want to see atrocities at all - but I certainly don't want to add to man's inhumanity by allowing poor people who can't afford good lawyers and those afflicted with mental illness to die at our own hands. 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on May 30, 2013, 09:12:38 pm
The entire basis of the justice system is to remove revenge from the equation. Because revenge is unfettered by concerns such as evidence, fact and motive.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 30, 2013, 09:29:56 pm
I would like to believe that everyone brought to the Courts in this Country, gets a fair trial, and I would not have it any other way.  I am in agreement with Ian that there is no place for revenge to become involved in our Justice system.  In this respect I am also in favour of important trials being handled by a "bench" of Judges rather than the jury system.   But that's another subject for debate!
 >>>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on May 30, 2013, 09:51:27 pm
Mother of three, nana to four kiddies. If anyone harmed any of mine I would do the deed. whether considered revenge or not . To take a life or ruin a child justice must prevail and yes Yorkie i agree with you that the system we have is no deterrent . We are too soft in this country that's why we have so many sick dangerous people out in the community. Capital punishment is  not just for revenge ,but is removing
the chance of that person in question doing it again. How can anyone think of pampering this murderer of poor little April let alone feeding him a meal. Throw him into the hardest women's prison we have and leave  the women to deal with the lowlife scum.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on May 30, 2013, 10:11:55 pm
Just an additional note hear. I know i feel emotional hearing this little April Jones case. but I suggest that anyone that feels we need to tread lightly with these criminals take a look at the details of this little girls case on the tv news now. We will foot the bill for this animal who did this for the next 25 or so years. I rest my case.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 30, 2013, 10:26:01 pm
I don't want to see atrocities at all - but I certainly don't want to add to man's inhumanity by allowing poor people who can't afford good lawyers and those afflicted with mental illness to die at our own hands. 'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'

I must agree with BTR but even in the criminal world there is a certain code of conduct and I hope that they dispense their justice within the prison walls.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 30, 2013, 11:39:10 pm
I think that in some cases capital punishment can be justified very easily, but how do you make the law work? For example if someone shot a burglar they could be charged with murder then in theory subject to capital punishment, yet most people would think that's not right! I still say that it will not deter those of unsound mind.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on May 31, 2013, 07:55:07 am
I'm moving these recent posts into Crime and Punishment, folks.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 31, 2013, 08:29:02 am
I think that in some cases capital punishment can be justified very easily, but how do you make the law work? For example if someone shot a burglar they could be charged with murder then in theory subject to capital punishment, yet most people would think that's not right! I still say that it will not deter those of unsound mind.

Any trial for homicide has to be defended or suicidal maniacs would be confessing all over the place.

There are such defence arguments to Murder as Attempted Murder, Joint Enterprise, Causation, Manslaughter, Voluntary Manslaughter, Diminished Responsibility, Loss of Control, Suicide Pact, Involuntary Manslaughter, Gross Negligence Manslaughter, Medical Manslaughter, Unlawful Act Manslaughter, Encouraging or Assisting Suicide, Infanticide, Familial Deaths and Serious Physical Harm, Shaken Baby Syndrome (SBS) and Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS), and Self-defence to name but a few.

With so many avenues, any Defence Counsel worth his salt would ensure that if there was the slightest doubt of a person's guilt, he would be able to produce a lesser and non- capital result.  Consequently, we would not be sending criminals to their ultimate demise on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on May 31, 2013, 10:31:45 am
Perhaps I should qualify the last paragraph and add the words "of the capital offence" after the word guilt.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 01, 2013, 12:26:49 am
Just an additional note hear. I know i feel emotional hearing this little April Jones case. but I suggest that anyone that feels we need to tread lightly with these criminals take a look at the details of this little girls case on the tv news now. We will foot the bill for this animal who did this for the next 25 or so years. I rest my case.

I would soon cure this type of problem, by putting a small piece of lead in the offenders ear.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on June 04, 2013, 01:37:53 pm
A good part of me agrees with that little piece of lead Fester, but maybe a little too kind after the horrors that these kids have gone through. As things stand now every paedophile and murderer thinks the worst that can happen is a warm cell and (treatment) for their mental conditions to make them better people. They eat and shower  allowed to read and learn. Those Kids and other victims have had their lives terminated, never to do anything good in life again. These criminals have a better life in Jail than some of our senior citizens in certain carehomes and the lives of some pensioners struggling in their own homes to feed clothe and keep warm.
Yet all this money is spent to keep these murderers alive. When proven guilty zero tolerance im afraid. If you have a dog that badly hurts someone it gets put down as it is a very dangerous animal. Anyone who physically abuses or kills a child or anyone for that matter is an animal and therefore should be treated as such.
I do believe this to be the case when as Yorkie implied forensics have come so far as there will be no shadow of doubt of guilt. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 04, 2013, 06:21:01 pm


 &shake&

A WOMAN was attacked and repeatedly punched by a man in the view of passing motorists.

The woman in her 30s was attacked after an altercation on the pavement between Tesco's roundabout and the Weekly News roundabout at around 8pm last night.

Investigating Officer PC Gary James at Llandudno Police Station said: "The woman was attacked and repeatedly punched by a man described as bald and aged in his 40s.   The assault was in full view of passing motorists and I’d appeal to anyone who was in the area at the time and witnessed the incident to contact Police as soon as possible by phoning 101 or Crimestoppers”

PC James added: “Fortunately the woman, who is local, was not seriously injured but this was clearly a very distressing incident and totally unacceptable.”

North Wales Police can be contacted on 101 or anonymously via Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111 and quote reference RC13086773.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2013, 07:19:32 pm
One topic we've never really covered on the forum are the shocking events at North Wales Childrens Homes in the 1970s, 80s and 90s, where the abuse of children (both physical and sexual) was carried out on a regular, almost systematic basis. With the recent publication of the previously whitewashed Jillings Report, more questions are now being asked as to whether the abuse was organised at a very high level or was simply the result of a group of paedophiles operating independently. Some victims allege that sections within North Wales Police and senior politicians were actively involved in the abuse and they say that the cover-up is still continuing today.

In November 2012 Roger Dobson for the Independent revealed how both North Wales Police and Clwyd County Council actively tried to prevent the Jillings Enquiry carrying out its investigation:

The then newly appointed North Wales Chief Constable refused to meet them or help with access to the police major-incident database. "We were disappointed at the apparent impossibility of obtaining a breakdown of data. We are unable to identify the overall extent of the allegations received by the police in the many witness statements which they took.''

Some one hundred and thirty boxes of material handed over by the council to the police were not made available to the panel and the Council did not allow the panel to place a notice in the local press seeking information.

In his report Mr Jillings said “What we found was horrific and on a significant scale. If the events in children's homes in North Wales were to be translated into a film, Oliver Twist would seem relatively benign. The scale of what happened, and how it was allowed, are a disgrace, and stain on the history of child care in this country.”


Following the publication of the later Whitehouse report, Welsh MP Martyn Jones described the report as "a whitewash” and threatened to use parliamentary privilege to expose protected child abusers. During a debate in parliament, he complained that the report did not name politicians, police officers and judges suspected of abuse during the inquiry.


Please be aware that these Reports/Articles can contain disturbing material.

There is some background to the whole scandal in this Telegraph article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10177681/The-truth-behind-the-child-abuse-cover-ups.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10177681/The-truth-behind-the-child-abuse-cover-ups.html)

I've recently read the Whitehouse 'Lost In Care' Report, you can read it here. Local Childrens homes in Llandudno & Colwyn Bay are covered, as well as other North Wales childrens homes:
http://tna.europarchive.org/20040216040105/http:/www.doh.gov.uk/lostincare/20102.htm (http://tna.europarchive.org/20040216040105/http:/www.doh.gov.uk/lostincare/20102.htm)

The heavily redacted Jillings Report can be read here:
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/council/news/jillings.htm (http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/council/news/jillings.htm)

Victims Allegations re Paedophile Ring:
http://www.itv.com/news/2012-11-06/north-wales-police-handed-dozens-of-picture-of-abuse/ (http://www.itv.com/news/2012-11-06/north-wales-police-handed-dozens-of-picture-of-abuse/)

Please be very careful when commenting not to name anyone as a paedophile who has not previously been charged in connection with the child abuse.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2013, 07:39:13 pm
Waters have been muddied further today, with the appearance of a blog post by for a former alleged MI5 officer concerning the child abuse allegations:
http://macurstatement.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/review-statement-of-andrea-davison-1.html (http://macurstatement.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/review-statement-of-andrea-davison-1.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Big Alan on July 15, 2013, 07:42:56 pm
And the evacuated kids from Liverpool at the start of World War 2? My mum still hates her 'adopted parents' has never told me why.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2013, 09:31:03 am
'Interesting' story in the Daily Post today.

A man called John Tunney was arrested on Trinity Ave after asking two boys to take a photo of him and put it on the Internet. He offered them £250 to do so. It was only when the two boys approached his car that he realised that he was naked apart from wearing a women's bra and was 'engaged in sexual activity'.  :o  :o  :o

12 Months Suspended Sentence.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2013, 09:59:26 am
I noticed yesterday whilst walking along the Prom that there are still no flags on the flagpoles. How ridiculous.

According to this FOI request from September last year, the Town Clerk said that:

"I regret that there have been no flags flown this year as the posts as the posts are in need of new fittings. It is hoped that this will be completed soon and flags will be flown, certainly for the next season. "

Well, the next Season is most certainly here...yet the flags are not.  &shake&

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/flagpoles_on_promenade#incoming-314034 (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/flagpoles_on_promenade#incoming-314034)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 16, 2013, 10:07:27 am
The Queen of Hearts is looking very similar.

Such a shame a certain Lady retired from the Alice in Wonderland centre she did such a good job and one of my daughters worked with her there for years , the overseas interest was incredible.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on July 16, 2013, 11:23:04 am
I have been trying to get hold of publicity literature about the 'Alice Trail' now for 12 months, but non seems to be available.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 16, 2013, 01:06:39 pm
I have been trying to get hold of publicity literature about the 'Alice Trail' now for 12 months, but non seems to be available.

Probably realised that with such a short life it wasn't worth the expense.   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: wrex on July 16, 2013, 09:07:53 pm
At last Parc Llandudno has dropped those ugly hoardings and started to clear the rats and weeds.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 16, 2013, 10:17:40 pm
All this appalling stuff coming to light now certainly shrinks all our grumbles about stuff doesnt it. i dont think words could describe the feelings of decent folk when we hear such atrocities towards all abused children. Pull out all stops to bring these animals to justice.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2013, 12:37:04 am
'Interesting' story in the Daily Post today.

A man called John Tunney was arrested on Trinity Ave after asking two boys to take a photo of him and put it on the Internet. He offered them £250 to do so. It was only when the two boys approached his car that he realised that he was naked apart from wearing a women's bra and was 'engaged in sexual activity'.  :o  :o  :o

12 Months Suspended Sentence.

12 months suspended sentence??   :o   What kind of lunacy is this?   I assume he is already on the sex offenders register, if not why not?
What goes through the depraved minds of someone who could even contemplate such an act, never mind go through with it?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 17, 2013, 01:04:17 pm
'Interesting' story in the Daily Post today.

A man called John Tunney was arrested on Trinity Ave after asking two boys to take a photo of him and put it on the Internet. He offered them £250 to do so. It was only when the two boys approached his car that he realised that he was naked apart from wearing a women's bra and was 'engaged in sexual activity'.  :o  :o  :o

12 Months Suspended Sentence.

12 months suspended sentence??   :o   What kind of lunacy is this?   I assume he is already on the sex offenders register, if not why not?
What goes through the depraved minds of someone who could even contemplate such an act, never mind go through with it?

What are these Judges thinking of!  This was 2 BOYS presumably underage anyway. Where is the protection of minors (or anyone) suffering sexual or  other abuse in this country. I despair. what good is an 12 suspended sentence!  Suspended sentence! Id give him suspended sentence ,suspended by a certain part of his anatomy from a tree ,problem dealt with!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2013, 02:46:07 pm
I wouldn't fancy living in the flat below. or above even!

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-woman-handed-asbo-5117246 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-woman-handed-asbo-5117246)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 17, 2013, 03:05:55 pm
He needs a poke in the eye, with a sharp stick.

From what was seen, and described, we automatically assume that the youth was the offender.   I just wonder if the fault could actually have been with the security chap!    :D

Believe me the fault was obviously with the yob, the security guard was only slightly built and said very little but when the other guards arrived I knew the shop security guard would be ok.
The podgy youth didn't look like he needed feeding but a knuckle butty would have soon quelled his appetite.

I'm sorry I must have missed your chirlish posts attacking my character in March  $good$

Nice to see that you think that assualt is perfectly ok though, and yet you have the temerity to call others scum. Strange world indeed  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2013, 04:21:37 pm
I think that BTR must be a reformed character now and seen the error of his inane postings.   
In actual fact though he's a conscientious employee and only posted rubbish to wind people up and prolong an emotive debate but now that he's been rumbled his game is well and truly over.

Do you mean churlish BTR?     What's churlish about a complement?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 17, 2013, 04:25:35 pm
 $thanx$ My English degree has failed me!! I blame the governemnt!!

I don't think saying my postings were rubbish is much of a compliment though  :twoface:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2013, 04:50:21 pm
It is a very poor Sentence, I think, considering the seriousness of the offence.  Such behaviour should be punished harshly, with none of this nonsense about poor health resulting in him receiving a lighter punishment. Children must be protected from such people.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2013, 06:15:53 pm
It hasn't failed you BTR it's only a small spell check omission and we are all guilty of that.

I have never said that your postings are rubbish, on the contrary.  We are all entitled to an opinion, you have yours and I have mine.  I can justify mine but can you justify yours.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 17, 2013, 07:19:57 pm
Quote
It is a very poor Sentence, I think, considering the seriousness of the offence.  Such behaviour should be punished harshly, with none of this nonsense about poor health resulting in him receiving a lighter punishment. Children must be protected from such people.

I would imagine that the Judge did not come to the decision about the sentence lightly, nor in an uninformed manner. They're obliged to take into account all the information available, which will include psychiatric reports, medical reports, social reports and anything else which the defence team considered pertinent. He will know the precise details of the case, including the age of the boys, their proximity to the defendant, whether any physical contact was initiated and, if so, by whom, the likely impact on the boys and a great deal else,  We, on the other hand, know next to nothing, other than what we can gleam from the Daily Post article so perhaps it could be seen as a little unwise to wax lyrical on how lenient the sentence was.

In this country we do have a procedure through which criminal cases must pass and - fortunately - we have abolished the ducking stool, the stocks and lynch mobs, although certain tabloids clearly wish we hadn't.  We do not know anything about the 'seriousness of the offence', either, save what we glean - again - second hand from the Daily Post. Can anybody seriously believe that this man was anything other than, at best, mildly deranged? He was sitting in a car, naked, except for a bra, we are told.  He offers two boys £250.00 to take his photo. I cannot conceive of any reaction other than hysterical amusement on the part of the boys (being a father of two boys myself I know that's exactly what reaction they'd have had) and far from any sentence being insufficient I imagine this man is now being closely supervised by mental health professionals - as he should be.

It's all too easy to be members of the armchair judiciary, especially when our only source of information is a sketchy (at best) newspaper article. Perhaps we ought to be concerned with more obvious crimes towards children, such as the Stephen Lawrence affair, which resulted in the Met Police being condemned as institutionally racist. Or the thousands of children being brutalised, starved, raped, beaten and maimed in countries like Syria, or the children who attempt to flee countries like N Korea who are recaptured by the N Koreans and who then face torture and possible death. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2013, 08:14:56 pm
I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children?  :o

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2013, 08:34:57 pm
A shame that the bench in Happy Valley with one of the best views in Llandudno has been removed:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 17, 2013, 08:39:00 pm
Quote
I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children? 

Curiously I couldn't find the original story, although there are references to it on your own blog going back to March 2012. Perhaps a link?  8) Just to establish the facts, you understand...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 17, 2013, 08:45:50 pm
I think the decision in this case revolved around the fact that no actual assault took place.  If there had been any interference, a custodial sentence would probably have been applied. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 17, 2013, 08:57:04 pm
Quote
I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children? 

Curiously I couldn't find the original story, although there are references to it on your own blog going back to March 2012. Perhaps a link?  8) Just to establish the facts, you understand...
Unless I have mysteriously developed a time travelling blog, I think you're mistaken Ian, as the offence took place in January 2013, according to the paper. The article is on Page 5 of the July 16th edition of the Daily Post.

I'm sure you're aware that the Daily Post now only public a small selection stories free of charge online, but it is on both the print and ipad edition, here's a screenshot of the Ipad story from yesterday's edition:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Jack on July 17, 2013, 09:28:33 pm
Notice that a couple of rowing boats have appeared in the Deganwy area.  One on the grass verge at the junction of Deganwy Road and Maesdu Avenue and a second by the level crossing at the entrance to the Deganwy Quays.  I assume they are to be filled with soil and planted up rather than been stranded there on an incredibly high tide!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2013, 11:29:38 pm
B2R, to be fair mate, only most of your postings are rubbish, not all.  :laugh:

Your new tattoo on the other hand.....   L0L L0L
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2013, 11:42:20 pm
There was a strange chap called John Tunney,
Who offered two children some money,
To 'relieve' in his car,
Wearing only a bra,
I hope no one thinks that is funny?   

 WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 18, 2013, 01:11:35 am
Quote
I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children? 

Curiously I couldn't find the original story, although there are references to it on your own blog going back to March 2012. Perhaps a link?  8) Just to establish the facts, you understand...
Unless I have mysteriously developed a time travelling blog, I think you're mistaken Ian, as the offence took place in January 2013, according to the paper. The article is on Page 5 of the July 16th edition of the Daily Post.

I'm sure you're aware that the Daily Post now only public a small selection stories free of charge online, but it is on both the print and ipad edition, here's a screenshot of the Ipad story from yesterday's edition:


Any kind of behavior like this is totally unacceptable and could have led to something a lot more serious if say a child had been alone.
I am not an armchair jury, I in fact experienced an assault as a 13yr child after just going to the local shop for my mum. Youngish man dragged me down a side street, so fortunate for me was another man passing the top of the street, he shouted out and i managed to get away. The passerby could have unknowingly saved me from something really bad. I went home shaken and with bloody knees. My attacker was never found. You cant allow this kind of thing to just go on. Slightly deranged can and quite likely can become a lot more serious, anyone thinking of behaving that way in front of anyone let alone a child shouldnt be on the loose!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 18, 2013, 07:17:43 am
Quote
Unless I have mysteriously developed a time travelling blog, I think you're mistaken Ian, as the offence took place in January 2013, according to the paper. The article is on Page 5 of the July 16th edition of the Daily Post.

[smg id=3233]

The dating might be a function of the blog software, but you can see why I was curious. That;s how it appears on Google, and I could find no trace of the original DP story on there.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 18, 2013, 07:20:31 am
Quote
Slightly deranged can and quite likely can become a lot more serious, anyone thinking of behaving that way in front of anyone let alone a child shouldnt be on the loose!

So what would you suggest, Linda? The article states 'It was only Tunney's poor health which had stopped him from going immediately to Jail" and there's no mention of exactly what that 'poor health' was.  We know he was an 'ex-soldier' so it's possible that the 'poor health' referred to was occasioned by his Military service.  Just suppose he'd occasioned brain or mental damage when involved in some heroic acts, such as saving the lives of innocent civilians? MOD figures released last week reveal that more soldiers take their own lives than are killed by enemy combatants. 

What I'm saying is we don't know and - while it's the easiest thing in the world to pontificate on the inadequacies of Judges - unless we are privy to all the relevant information the fact is we can't possibly know the full situation.

Matthew Parris wrote an excellent piece in the Times, yesterday, which illustrated that extremely well.  His main point was that the news media like stories that are black and white:  they don't like stories which are more complex, with multiple facets and shades of grey because they don't sell newspapers. In most Newspapers the journalists are expected to 'create' an angle by presenting only the bare bones of a story in such a way that it arouses an emotional response. The reader, however, rarely - if ever - gets to know the full story and background.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 08:03:37 am
Quote
Unless I have mysteriously developed a time travelling blog, I think you're mistaken Ian, as the offence took place in January 2013, according to the paper. The article is on Page 5 of the July 16th edition of the Daily Post.

[smg id=3233]

The dating might be a function of the blog software, but you can see why I was curious. That;s how it appears on Google, and I could find no trace of the original DP story on there.
That date is the date of the original blog post, which is correct. However, Google is pulling in the recent posts from the Forum on that page as well, when it crawls the page to update it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 08:06:10 am
Quote
Slightly deranged can and quite likely can become a lot more serious, anyone thinking of behaving that way in front of anyone let alone a child shouldnt be on the loose!

So what would you suggest, Linda? The article states 'It was only Tunney's poor health which had stopped him from going immediately to Jail" and there's no mention of exactly what that 'poor health' was.  We know he was an 'ex-soldier' so it's possible that the 'poor health' referred to was occasioned by his Military service.  Just suppose he'd occasioned brain or mental damage when involved in some heroic acts, such as saving the lives of innocent civilians? MOD figures released last week reveal that more soldiers take their own lives than are killed by enemy combatants. 

What I'm saying is we don't know and - while it's the easiest thing in the world to pontificate on the inadequacies of Judges - unless we are privy to all the relevant information the fact is we can't possibly know the full situation.

Matthew Parris wrote an excellent piece in the Times, yesterday, which illustrated that extremely well.  His main point was that the news media like stories that are black and white:  they don't like stories which are more complex, with multiple facets and shades of grey because they don't sell newspapers. In most Newspapers the journalists are expected to 'create' an angle by presenting only the bare bones of a story in such a way that it arouses an emotional response. The reader, however, rarely - if ever - gets to know the full story and background.
Irrespective of the story behind the man, what he did was unacceptable and he should not be allowed to be in a position to carry out similar or worse offences again. That's the crux of the matter. It's sad that you're more interested in the criminal than the victims, Ian.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 18, 2013, 09:34:35 am
But we know so little about his 'victims', other than the fact they were 'teenagers'.  They might have been two 17 year olds. Would they have been 'victims'?

Quote
Irrespective of the story behind the man, what he did was unacceptable and he should not be allowed to be in a position to carry out similar or worse offences again. That's the crux of the matter.

So we deal with all incidents judged purely on the act and not take into account any reasons or motives?  Is that what you're saying?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 10:01:06 am
But we know so little about his 'victims', other than the fact they were 'teenagers'.  They might have been two 17 year olds. Would they have been 'victims'?
The Law says that they are. I doubt Tunney asked their age before masturbating in front of them?

Quote
So we deal with all incidents judged purely on the act and not take into account any reasons or motives?  Is that what you're saying?
The focus should be on protecting innocent people (especially children) from people like Tunney, who obviously cannot control his actions.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 18, 2013, 10:15:02 am
If Tunney was also under the impression that he had won the Lottery and bought a new Car perhaps he needs some treatment rather than encarceration!
   >?>??
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 10:22:06 am
If Tunney was also under the impression that he had won the Lottery and bought a new Car perhaps he needs some treatment rather than encarceration!
How can you be sure that he would not commit further offences, though? The thing about jail is that it physically prevents further offences being committed. If this guy is so nuts that he has no grasp on reality, then who can say what he is capable of?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 18, 2013, 10:58:04 am
I was watching TV the other day and they were discussing the Benefit capping.   
They had done a survey and of the people surveyed, 70 per cent agreed with the Benefit cap.
30 per cent disagreed but out of the minority of 30 per cent there were 33 per cent who disagreed only because they thought that the Benefit cap was too high
After all £26K tax free for doing nothing at all seems unfair to those working for a living.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 18, 2013, 11:49:25 am

How can you be sure that he would not commit further offences, though? The thing about jail is that it physically prevents further offences being committed. If this guy is so nuts that he has no grasp on reality, then who can say what he is capable of?

Quite agree with you, no one knows what he, or anyone, is capable of.  But without treatment he could get worse, and prison is not the best place to try to reform anyone.  In fact it is the one place where his lewd acts could get worse.

There are secure units where treatment for many disorders are dealt with, maybe one of those would be the best solution.  Certainly treatment at home is out of the question.
 aaa.gif
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 18, 2013, 11:59:22 am
If Tunney was also under the impression that he had won the Lottery and bought a new Car perhaps he needs some treatment rather than encarceration!
How can you be sure that he would not commit further offences, though? The thing about jail is that it physically prevents further offences being committed. If this guy is so nuts that he has no grasp on reality, then who can say what he is capable of?
I wonder if he still has his driving licence Hmm! deranged and driving a bit of a worry as well. As far as the man being an ex soldier and possibly saving many lives etc I disagree with the sentiment in that one im afraid.  I for one saved my child from drowning, my friends daughter from a terrible asthma attack, my husband during a heart attack many other (potentially life saving)incidents as we all do in our day to day lives, but if i committed an assault or otherwise i would expect to be punished in some way. Im not saying this person
shouldnt be treated but im very concerned that he is free to wander and possibly target even younger folk. Too many kids have suffered needlessly when the authorities were aware of these 'Risky' people. A few major ones in this area alone. I may get emotional at times when i hear sad cases involving children and i am not just attacking this case, my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators. Example uncovering all this terrible stuff in local childrens homes.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 18, 2013, 12:06:49 pm
I was watching TV the other day and they were discussing the Benefit capping.   
They had done a survey and of the people surveyed, 70 per cent agreed with the Benefit cap.
30 per cent disagreed but out of the minority of 30 per cent there were 33 per cent who disagreed only because they thought that the Benefit cap was too high
After all £26K tax free for doing nothing at all seems unfair to those working for a living.

BUT....most of that 26k is not going to the benefit claimant but to rich landlords.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 18, 2013, 01:26:55 pm

BUT....most of that 26k is not going to the benefit claimant but to rich landlords.

We're not suffering another bout of Rachmanism are we?   

Most Claimants are probably in Social Housing.  ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 01:37:12 pm
I was watching TV the other day and they were discussing the Benefit capping.   
They had done a survey and of the people surveyed, 70 per cent agreed with the Benefit cap.
30 per cent disagreed but out of the minority of 30 per cent there were 33 per cent who disagreed only because they thought that the Benefit cap was too high
After all £26K tax free for doing nothing at all seems unfair to those working for a living.

BUT....most of that 26k is not going to the benefit claimant but to rich landlords.
How is that any different to the rest of of us have to pay rent or a mortgage?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: FatAndy on July 18, 2013, 03:03:34 pm
But we know so little about his 'victims', other than the fact they were 'teenagers'.  They might have been two 17 year olds. Would they have been 'victims'?

The 'victims' were 17 and 15 according the NWWN.  To be honest the thing that surprises me the most is that they didn't take the £250 and then do a runner.  It's not like he could have sued them for not posting the photos online.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 04:32:10 pm
But we know so little about his 'victims', other than the fact they were 'teenagers'.  They might have been two 17 year olds. Would they have been 'victims'?

The 'victims' were 17 and 15 according the NWWN.  To be honest the thing that surprises me the most is that they didn't take the £250 and then do a runner.  It's not like he could have sued them for not posting the photos online.
I don't think the £250 existed anywhere other than in Tunney's mind, mate.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Big Alan on July 18, 2013, 06:19:44 pm
Ian, 2 words, James Bulger. Now do one and go and hug a tree. Your posts on this issue make me fume lad
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
Some more insight into this case from the NWWN today. Disturbingly, it seems that he twice asked the boys to get into his car before they ran off and found a policeman.  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 06:55:02 pm
There was a strange chap called John Tunney,
Who offered two children some money,
To 'relieve' in his car,
Wearing only a bra,
I hope no one thinks that is funny?   

 WWW WWW WWW
I think we can better that....

There was an odd bloke called Tunney,
who thought it would be quite funny,
to sit in his car, wearing only a bra,
showing youngsters his todge for money.


No?  &shake&

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 18, 2013, 07:53:06 pm
Police arrest 72-year-old man as part of historic child abuse investigation
18 Jul 2013 11:07

The Wrexham man is being questioned on suspicion of physical assaults against eight youngsters between 1963 and 1992

A 72-year-old man from Wrexham has been arrested by detectives investigating allegations of a historic paedophile ring in North Wales.

Detectives from Operation Pallial, launched last November, are looking into 140 allegations relating to 18 care homes between 1963 and 1992.

He is being questioned on suspicion of physical assaults against eight youngsters, said the Serious Organised Crime Agency (Soca).

The assaults, on five boys and three girls, are alleged to have taken place between 1974 and 1986 when they were aged between 10 and 15.

A Soca spokeswoman said: “The 72-year-old man will be taken to a police station in North Wales where he will be interviewed.”

Operation Pallial is led by Keith Bristow, director general of the National Crime Agency (NCA), and is looking  into recent allegations of historical abuse in the care system in North Wales. This is the third arrest in the operation.

A man from Ipswich was held on April 23 accused of “a number of serious sexual offences against a number of individuals”, and was bailed until the end of July.

A 62-year-old man from Leicester was detained on June 26 and was bailed until the end of September.

A report published in April, which outlined phase one of the inquiry, revealed that the alleged victims in the case were aged between seven and 19.

The report said 84 people - 75 male and nine female - had been named by complainants. Of these, 16 were named by more than one alleged victim and 10 might now be dead.

The NCA was selected at the request of North Wales Police to ensure the inquiry’s independence.

It was set up to re-examine claims of sex crimes and look again at the original police investigations into abuse at care homes in North Wales.

In 2000 the Waterhouse Inquiry was established to study claims linked to homes in the former council areas of Gwynedd and Clwyd since 1974.

Following Waterhouse, eight people were prosecuted and seven were convicted.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 18, 2013, 11:16:57 pm
I was watching TV the other day and they were discussing the Benefit capping.   
They had done a survey and of the people surveyed, 70 per cent agreed with the Benefit cap.
30 per cent disagreed but out of the minority of 30 per cent there were 33 per cent who disagreed only because they thought that the Benefit cap was too high
After all £26K tax free for doing nothing at all seems unfair to those working for a living.

BUT....most of that 26k is not going to the benefit claimant but to rich landlords.
How is that any different to the rest of of us have to pay rent or a mortgage?

Exactly,  I'm unable to comprehend how the minority can justify why benefits shouldn't be capped.  Perhaps anyone who is against capping benefits could explain their reason, because at the moment I just can't see how they can justify their view.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 18, 2013, 11:49:04 pm
Nope, my limerick was better.... before you MODERATED it!  :-X
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 19, 2013, 06:48:38 am
Nope, my limerick was better.... before you MODERATED it!  :-X
I've not touched it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 09:06:08 am
I left this a day before commenting further as I wanted to see what sorts of things would be posted.

Quote
  It's sad that you're more interested in the criminal than the victims, Ian.

That's not worthy of you, Dave, and a bit naughty, as I'm sure you're aware:-))  For those who don't realise what Dave was up to, it's called a Straw Man argument.  He's tried to infer from my posts that I 'care' more for the defendant than the 'victim', although, being a person of substantive intellect, he's chosen his words very carefully.

The facts are very simple:  it took Fatandy to discover the boys' ages (interestingly, one was indeed 17, the other 15) so now we at least know they were unlikely to have been seduced in their innocence. In fact, had the perpetrator been a 17 year old girl naked in her car I wonder what the reactions in here would be then?

There's also another point. here; the defendant could not possibly have known the ages of the boys and, in any case, one was above the legal age of consent in this country, as were both in most countries around the world. Finally, Fatandy also mnakes a very pertinent point when he posted 

Quote
To be honest the thing that surprises me the most is that they didn't take the £250 and then do a runner.  It's not like he could have sued them for not posting the photos online. 

While I agree with Dave's response I wonder if - when the two young men realised he was slightly dotty and wasn't going to pay them anything - they decided to 'shop' him because they felt irritated with the outcome.

Quote
  Ian, 2 words, James Bulger. Now do one and go and hug a tree. Your posts on this issue make me fume lad

Sorry, but I simply don't see the relevance of that remark. Firstly, the Bulger case was totally different in so many ways it's hard to know where to start and, as it lacks any sort of premise and is merely a statistical syllogism, I can't really respond. Child-on-child murders are - thankfully - rare, but when they happen they make a massive impact.  The Bulger case was truly horrifying but has no bearing on this man's actions.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 09:06:38 am

Quote
Some more insight into this case from the NWWN today. Disturbingly, it seems that he twice asked the boys to get into his car before they ran off and found a policeman. 

Hmmmm…gosh, a 17 year old and a 15 year being lured into a car for..sweeties?

Quote
I wonder if he still has his driving licence Hmm! deranged and driving a bit of a worry as well. 

Sorry, Linda, I found that incredibly funny, probably because I was trying to think if any part of the Road Traffic Act mentioned driving while only wearing a bra :-))

Quote
As far as the man being an ex soldier and possibly saving many lives etc I disagree with the sentiment in that one im afraid.   

Linda - it wasn't a sentiment.  I was trying to demonstrate  how mitigating factors, such as the types of traumatic stress disorders soldiers can experience do play a part in determining how sufferers can translate the effects into their behaviour in daily life, confabulation being one such exceptionally worrying example.

Quote
my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

The sentence wasn't feeble. As I've said, we don't know the details, but the facts we do know are not only bizarre but are such that the specialists that will have been consulted do not feel institutionalising this man is the best course of action for society.

Quote
Im not saying this person shouldnt be treated but im very concerned that he is free to wander and possibly target even younger folk. 

I suspect he's far from 'free' in that sense, and will be closely supervised as a condition of the sentence.

Quote
Too many kids have suffered needlessly when the authorities were aware of these 'Risky' people….my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

There is no evidence that those who commit crimes towards children are influenced from knowledge of severer sentences.  It's the single fact that the DFM fails to grasp on every occasion: increasing the severity of sentences has no discernible effect on crimes. The US has the death sentence in several states, yet gun crime there is the highest in the world.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 09:06:56 am
I also find it interesting that the questions I posed have not been answered or even debated.

Quote
Perhaps we ought to be concerned with more obvious crimes towards children, such as the Stephen Lawrence affair, which resulted in the Met Police being condemned as institutionally racist. Or the thousands of children being brutalised, starved, raped, beaten and maimed in countries like Syria, or the children who attempt to flee countries like N Korea who are recaptured by the N Koreans and who then face torture and possible death.   

What about these crimes? Why are we not posting passionately about them?

Quote
I think you missed the part about him masturbating in front of the two young boys, Ian? One would hope that you would not consider that acceptable behaviour in front of young children? 

But, as we now know, (although I suspected) they were far from being 'young boys', weren't they?

 
Quote
Quote
    So we deal with all incidents judged purely on the act and not take into account any reasons or motives?  Is that what you're saying?

The focus should be on protecting innocent people (especially children) from people like Tunney, who obviously cannot control his actions.

Er, yes, but you haven't answered the question...


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 19, 2013, 11:36:05 am

Quote
Some more insight into this case from the NWWN today. Disturbingly, it seems that he twice asked the boys to get into his car before they ran off and found a policeman. 

Hmmmm…gosh, a 17 year old and a 15 year being lured into a car for..sweeties?

Quote
I wonder if he still has his driving licence Hmm! deranged and driving a bit of a worry as well. 

Sorry, Linda, I found that incredibly funny, probably because I was trying to think if any part of the Road Traffic Act mentioned driving while only wearing a bra :-))

Ian,
I have no problem with transvestites etc as living and running a Pub for years I consider I am open minded in a lot of ways. It was the flashing and masturbating in public in front of anybody! that i have a problem with! and seeing as the Judge has found this man to have
mental problems, Id like to add the a Car is a lethal weapon on the road to someone with severe mental health problems, which clearly is the case



Quote
As far as the man being an ex soldier and possibly saving many lives etc I disagree with the sentiment in that one im afraid.   

Linda - it wasn't a sentiment.  I was trying to demonstrate  how mitigating factors, such as the types of traumatic stress disorders soldiers can experience do play a part in determining how sufferers can translate the effects into their behaviour in daily life, confabulation being one such exceptionally worrying example.

Quote
my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

The sentence wasn't feeble. As I've said, we don't know the details, but the facts we do know are not only bizarre but are such that the specialists that will have been consulted do not feel institutionalising this man is the best course of action for society.

Quote
Im not saying this person shouldnt be treated but im very concerned that he is free to wander and possibly target even younger folk. 

I suspect he's far from 'free' in that sense, and will be closely supervised as a condition of the sentence.

Quote
Too many kids have suffered needlessly when the authorities were aware of these 'Risky' people….my thoughts are in general that these sometimes feeble sentences could be a green light to the perpetrators.

There is no evidence that those who commit crimes towards children are influenced from knowledge of severer sentences.  It's the single fact that the DFM fails to grasp on every occasion: increasing the severity of sentences has no discernible effect on crimes. The US has the death sentence in several states, yet gun crime there is the highest in the world.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 11:37:09 am
I suppose it depends on exactly what it's hoping will be achieved by capping benefits. If it means the feckless will have to work for a living, then it seems a practical solution to an otherwise intractable problem. But I'm uneasy. First off, it's politically motivated and not needs-led, which means it's a measure designed to punish and penalise. But if it's intended to lower the cost to the tax payer, then I can't see how it will (and seriously going after the big tax avoiders would probably work a lot better).

Any family with children will be protected because of the Children Act, so being booted out of their homes won't be an option. So I'm not sure how it's going to help.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 11:51:32 am
Quote
It was the flashing and masturbating in public in front of anybody! that i have a problem with! and seeing as the Judge has found this man to havemental problems, Id like to add the a Car is a lethal weapon on the road to someone with severe mental health problems, which clearly is the case

I agree.  But it depends on exactly what his problems are and how they manifest. DVLA has a lit of conditions that disbar drivers from holding a licence, and I'm sure that will be looked into.

The reaction to masturbation and flashing illustrates the dichotomy that exists in the British psyche regarding sex. On the one hand, millions of people applaud comedians and watch TV shows that contain a lot worse, yet those same millions throw up their hands in horror at this sort of article. Masturbation, particularly in men, has long been associated with shame and concealment, and - for that very reason - is a sure fire way for comics to raise a laugh at their gigs. But I worry that we try to bring children up to preserve their innocence as long as we can, while at the time entertainers make double entendres and advertisers seek to sexualise little girls. It's a very difficult issue, as I'm sure you're aware.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 19, 2013, 12:33:22 pm
That's an interesting theory Ian, although I don't think that it's politically motivated seeing that all the other parties support the idea in principle.
When you say that families with children will be protected, are you saying that they will be exempt from the £26K Benefit capping?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 19, 2013, 12:36:31 pm
We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  :o .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!! 

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 19, 2013, 12:38:38 pm
It's a token principal mainly set out to help appease the angry right wing voters who are upset about the gay marriage bill.
I don't know why anybody is even taking it seriously - this is politics by numbers  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 19, 2013, 01:18:08 pm
We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  :o .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!!

Why does your Husband being a Police Officer make any difference? 

As for the Sophie Hook murder, the purpetrator was convicted and sentenced accordingly.

What does one do about the Madeleine McCann case where the child was allegedly abducted after being left unattended, and without supervision, whilst the parents went out for dinner and drinks with their friends?  Have the parents been castigated?  No!  Has any other child ever attracted so much attention, involved so much Police time, and cost so much money?  No!   And all because she was left alone with her younger siblings, and without protection.

If parents put their children at risk they must accept the blame.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 04:06:59 pm
Quote
When you say that families with children will be protected, are you saying that they will be exempt from the £26K Benefit capping?

BTR is correct.  What happens is that the family who finds their cap is insufficient to pay their rent will be found more money through the system.  They won't be 'exempt' as such, just that more money will come their way through  various means. The Children Act has two main effects:  it won't permit the children to be made homeless and it won't allow families to be broken up. All the main parties support it because they're concerned about looking bad in the eyes of the electorate if they didn't.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 19, 2013, 04:17:19 pm
I apologise if I didn't fully explain , the fact that my hubby was a police officer doesn't have much bearing at all ,except for the fact of him comparing the crime rate which  seemed very very low in comparison to where he had worked before. Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc. I was merely pointing out what we believed at the time of moving that this area was great to bring our family up, and i didn't word it correctly.
I also agree children should be under constant parental supervision.  All children should be safe playing and maybe they would be safer if we were not so lenient with some of these sentences.That is my argument.Sadly some folk are downright naive to think i wont happen to them and there are some folk downright negligent where their children are concerned. It STILL doesn't give anyone the right to touch that child. My opinion is firm on that one, it doesn't matter whether a poor uncared for little mite or a child from a nurtured environment walks down the road, we have a duty to make that walk a safe one as far as our resources allow.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 19, 2013, 04:26:08 pm
I concur with all you say.  :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 04:29:44 pm
Quote
Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc

Nope.  It's nothing near, Linda.  My niece and Nephew are both Met officers and crime in the cities is much, much worse.

Quote
All children should be safe playing and maybe they would be safer if we were not so lenient with some of these sentences.That is my argument

Not true.  More children were abused and killed years ago than now. Check out the stats.  And don't forget: it's not strangers that abuse children: in the main it's family relatives and friends. In fact, apart from families and friends, children are safer today than they've ever been.

Quote
As far as overseas atrocities other than support the relevant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me.

I don't understand that. How do the atrocities 'overseas' differ in any way at all from the subject we were discussing? They both involved 'children', you personally knew neither of the parties and they both involve needless suffering, although possibly not the Tunney affair.  The only differences as far as I can see is that the overseas issues are far more severe and they're further away. How does that stop anyone posting about them?

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 19, 2013, 06:19:49 pm
Quote
Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc

Nope.  It's nothing near, Linda.  My niece and Nephew are both Met officers and crime in the cities is much, much worse.

As an ex Met Officer myself, I am also still very much in touch with friends and relatives in the London area.   All crime can be generally accounted for as a direct ratio to the size of the population in each area, just as can the sale of Baked Beans.  Crime in London or any of the other big cities can statistically appear worse purely due to the larger numbers.   Murder, robbery, it makes no difference, we all get our share unless for some obscure reason we are a statistical oddity.

 $angry1$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 19, 2013, 06:37:59 pm
Quote
Murder, robbery, it makes no difference, we all get our share unless for some obscure reason we are a statistical oddity.

Very true. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 19, 2013, 07:40:48 pm
Just passed the Lilly on West Shore around 7.15pm and it is heaving outside, in the bar and in the restaurant.

Yet the West Shore café, which was recently successful in obtaining a drinks licence, was closed.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 19, 2013, 08:08:22 pm
Was it just me, or did anyone else feel any ground tremors at about mid-day today?   I'm in Penrhyn Bay and I felt the tremors over a quite short period of time. 
 <:>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 19, 2013, 09:58:29 pm
We are just off Dinerth Road and did not notice anything at all. The earth didn't move for us!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 19, 2013, 11:39:14 pm
We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  :o .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!!

Why does your Husband being a Police Officer make any difference? 

As for the Sophie Hook murder, the purpetrator was convicted and sentenced accordingly.

What does one do about the Madeleine McCann case where the child was allegedly abducted after being left unattended, and without supervision, whilst the parents went out for dinner and drinks with their friends?  Have the parents been castigated?  No!  Has any other child ever attracted so much attention, involved so much Police time, and cost so much money?  No!   And all because she was left alone with her younger siblings, and without protection.

If parents put their children at risk they must accept the blame.

That is so wrong, in otherwords are you saying the Parents of these unfortunate children are more to blame than the Perverts committing the crime. &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 19, 2013, 11:46:48 pm
Quote
Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc

Nope.  It's nothing near, Linda.  My niece and Nephew are both Met officers and crime in the cities is much, much worse.

As an ex Met Officer myself, I am also still very much in touch with friends and relatives in the London area.   All crime can be generally accounted for as a direct ratio to the size of the population in each area, just as can the sale of Baked Beans.  Crime in London or any of the other big cities can statistically appear worse purely due to the larger numbers.   Murder, robbery, it makes no difference, we all get our share unless for some obscure reason we are a statistical oddity.




 $angry1$

Im not an aggresive lady. Yorkie and i see no reason for you to shake that truncheon at me. :D I havent checked statistics as im too busy looking after children and elderley relatives.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 20, 2013, 12:03:15 am
Quote
Now seems to me that our area now has caught up on  crime, drug scene ,assault etc

Nope.  It's nothing near, Linda.  My niece and Nephew are both Met officers and crime in the cities is much, much worse.

Quote
All children should be safe playing and maybe they would be safer if we were not so lenient with some of these sentences.That is my argument

Not true.  More children were abused and killed years ago than now. Check out the stats.  And don't forget: it's not strangers that abuse children: in the main it's family relatives and friends. In fact, apart from families and friends, children are safer today than they've ever been.

Quote
As far as overseas atrocities other than support the relevant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me.

I don't understand that. How do the atrocities 'overseas' differ in any way at all from the subject we were discussing? They both involved 'children', you personally knew neither of the parties and they both involve needless suffering, although possibly not the Tunney affair.  The only differences as far as I can see is that the overseas issues are far more severe and they're further away. How does that stop anyone posting about them?
You only showed part of my post there Ian as i finished it off with as a mother  i wish i could gather those children and put them somewhere safe. (meaning those abroad suffering).
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 20, 2013, 12:07:57 am
I think its time to hand this section back to Whats Llandudno like right now? As we could bounce back and forth with this till the cows come home or give it another section.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 20, 2013, 01:10:57 am
I think its time to hand this section back to Whats Llandudno like right now? As we could bounce back and forth with this till the cows come home or give it another section.

Anyone will know that the crime rate in any of our cities has to be huge. I have a daughter in London and I am a Manchester girl originally, all i did was loosely make a observation over what i saw and read. I didnt expect my post to be ripped apart ..  :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 20, 2013, 07:04:13 am

Im not an aggresive lady. Yorkie and i see no reason for you to shake that truncheon at me. :D I havent checked statistics as im too busy looking after children and elderley relatives.


Not shaking a truncheon at anyone it particular, Linda.  I tend to use the "smileys" in any old ad hoc manner.  However, now that you have pointed out the significance of that one, I will try to use it only where the "hidden message" will not cause offence.  Especially in respect of non aggressive members of the fairer sex.   
:D   $drink$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 20, 2013, 07:59:59 am
Quote
You only showed part of my post there Ian as i finished it off with as a mother  i wish i could gather those children and put them somewhere safe. (meaning those abroad suffering).

I only quoted the part to which I was responding, Linda. My point was that we're extremely parochial when it comes to crime and we only seem interested in crimes that happen in our locality, unless it's something massive, like a terrorist attack. It's curious:  why do we care more about an event involving people none of use knows because it's on our doorstep instead of much, much worse events taking place miles away? But we want debate about things like this, because debate helps clarify the issues surrounding the events.

In this case, for instance, the initial reports suggested some sort of predatory paedophile, and it took the detective work of Fatandy to find out the relevant details which then cast the case in a whole new light.  My point throughout has been that we all tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to stories well before we know the full facts.  This isn't an isolated incident: some years ago a mob attacked the home and person of a Paediatric consultant after the News of the World named him as an abuser.

If we live in a society that wants to be called civilised, then we have to ensure that the Law deals with crime, and not the lynch mob. We might not like the sentence, because we don't know all the facts, but sentences can be (and often are) appealed. 

There's more at stake than simple revenge. Throughout history - even as far back as Genesis - there have been people saying that we have to be cautious when dealing with criminal allegations and subsequent penalties, the most famous being Blackstone's formulation ("It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer").  I have two children - now grown, as are your own, but had anyone ever injured them when they were young I would have wanted to tear them limb from limb. But I recognise that's the hindbrain talking, and not the forebrain.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 20, 2013, 10:20:20 am
Here's an interesting  ethical (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23374239) dilemma:

From the BBC:

"Five prison officers have been suspended as police investigate claims a Woolwich murder suspect was injured while being restrained.

Michael Adebolajo reportedly lost teeth in an incident at London's Belmarsh Prison on Wednesday.

The Prison Officers Association denied any wrongdoing by officers saying a prisoner was restrained using approved techniques.

The suspect is accused of killing Fusilier Lee Rigby in May.

The POA has criticised the Ministry of Justice for failing to take action to stop what it called "sensationalist reporting" of the incident.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, POA chairman Peter McParlin said: "The reports that were initially put out to the press were saying that the prisoner had been attacked.

"Prison staff do not attack prisoners. We feel that the Ministry of Justice missed an opportunity to correct false reporting of events at Belmarsh."

He said that, although restraint techniques were designed to minimise injuries to staff and prisoners, "sometimes there are unforeseen consequences in any violent incident".
"

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 20, 2013, 10:21:50 pm

Im not an aggresive lady. Yorkie and i see no reason for you to shake that truncheon at me. :D I havent checked statistics as im too busy looking after children and elderley relatives.


Not shaking a truncheon at anyone it particular, Linda.  I tend to use the "smileys" in any old ad hoc manner.  However, now that you have pointed out the significance of that one, I will try to use it only where the "hidden message" will not cause offence.  Especially in respect of non aggressive members of the fairer sex.   
:D   $drink$

Good, then i wont have to send in my team  :>:> :>:>  8)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 21, 2013, 12:53:57 am
Ian, this issue about caring less about major events far away, as opposed to less serious ones on our own doorstep is probably an inbuilt defence mechanism which serves to keep us sane.
I for one could not begin to know where to start in terms of sympathising with those suffering the horrors which are perpetrated throughout the world.   Heaven knows, we still 'celebrate' burning an effigy of Guido Fawkes at the stake.

I think Star Treks's Dr McCoy said it best , when he said...

'Suffer the death of they neighbour?  .... surely you wouldn't wish that upon us''

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 21, 2013, 07:40:50 am
Quote
Ian, this issue about caring less about major events far away, as opposed to less serious ones on our own doorstep is probably an inbuilt defence mechanism which serves to keep us sane.

I know.  And I'm just as guilty as anyone. I joined Amnesty several years ago to try to make some difference and because I did feel guilty about why far-away events didn't seem as important. Because they are, obviously.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 21, 2013, 10:24:14 pm
We obviously have to agree to defer on your softly softly approach Ian,. When i first moved to North Wales my husband was a police officer having worked in Manchester his 'beat' Moss side,coming here was wonderful in a way that the crime rate was so low .Not the same worry about his safety. Try explaining to the families of victims that there loved ones have been attacked, killed by someone who clearly had severe mental problems and that was known to the authorities to be a risk. Example (No names) child dragged out of a tent in Craigydon and murdered a number of years ago, numerous others also. As far as overseas atrocities other than support the revelant charities I feel theres little to be done by the likes of me. The great compassion I feel towards these youngsters as a mother I would like to gather them and put them somewhere safe.
In brief answer to the British attitude towards masturbation its a damn good job most of the public has control as and where  :o .   I agree there should be no shame attached but keep it private!!!!!!!!

Why does your Husband being a Police Officer make any difference? 

As for the Sophie Hook murder, the purpetrator was convicted and sentenced accordingly.

What does one do about the Madeleine McCann case where the child was allegedly abducted after being left unattended, and without supervision, whilst the parents went out for dinner and drinks with their friends?  Have the parents been castigated?  No!  Has any other child ever attracted so much attention, involved so much Police time, and cost so much money?  No!   And all because she was left alone with her younger siblings, and without protection.

If parents put their children at risk they must accept the blame.



 Yorkie! That is so wrong, in otherwords are you saying the Parents of these unfortunate children are more to blame than the Perverts committing the crime. &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 21, 2013, 10:36:11 pm
Quote
Ian, this issue about caring less about major events far away, as opposed to less serious ones on our own doorstep is probably an inbuilt defence mechanism which serves to keep us sane.

I know.  And I'm just as guilty as anyone. I joined Amnesty several years ago to try to make some difference and because I did feel guilty about why far-away events didn't seem as important. Because they are, obviously.

The atrocities in other countries are majorly important, maybe if we make our own country strong,caring and educated (but with some zero tolerance) ;) we stand more of a chance in making a difference and recognising what is happening. If that had been the case before ww2, people (hope to god they would) may have stopped the Holocaust, God Bless them all.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 21, 2013, 10:46:53 pm
 A PS to that one I meant in my Ideal world. Agree with Fester i guess we have to have a switch off mechanism to keep our sanity when we hear such appalling things otherwise we would live in a permanent state of depression.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 22, 2013, 06:33:20 am

 Yorkie! That is so wrong, in other words are you saying the Parents of these unfortunate children are more to blame than the Perverts committing the crime. &shake&

No, that is not what I am saying.  But, if the Parents had NOT left the child unattended, no crime could have been committed.

Furthermore, how do you surmise it was a pervert in the McCann case?  There are a number of theories none of which have yet been proved.  After 6 years, the Portuguese Police, Methodo 3, Private Dicks from the UK and now Scotland Yard, the alleged perpetrator(s) has not yet been identified.

I have been following the Maddie case since day one and recommend that anyone interested in the case read Detective Amaral's book that he wrote after he was thrown off the case.  There are many peculiar aspects to this event including the very early involvement of UK Government.  Other books and theories have been published and all have their merits, you could find it all very interesting and eye opening. :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 22, 2013, 07:19:38 am
Read from the beginning.  http://www.maddiemystery.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://www.maddiemystery.blogspot.co.uk/)
 :-X
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 22, 2013, 07:45:44 am
I agree with Yorkie. A lot of things in the McCann case do not add up. I will say this, however: if you - Linda - had left three young grandchildren unsupervised and alone while you went off to have dinner, you'd have been the subject of a serious case review even if nothing had happened to the children. A woman from Rhyl was prosecuted for leaving her 8 year old alone in the house while she went to the local for a drink.

I'd urge you to read up about the case from any source you can. Yorkie's blog is a great start as it offers a lot of links.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 22, 2013, 08:07:35 am
The McCanns were middle class, professional people. So, of course, they couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.  :roll:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on July 22, 2013, 10:31:31 am
On a similar vein:- Last night at approx 10.30 pm two very small children aged I would guess no older than 7 or 8 walked past our front gate-- alone and unsupervised, happily chattering in their own language. We knew who they 'belonged' to by their dress.

I know Llandudno isn't central Manchester-- but why oh why are these parents being so blind to danger?  And who would get the blame if they were attacked or whatever else?

To some people their mode of dress would single them out and my blood runs cold at the thought of what could happen.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 22, 2013, 11:02:06 am
Back to the Madie case, let's consider a few points.

1) The majority of incidents affecting children are committed by relatives, friends or people who are known to the family.

2) With all the World Wide publicity Maddie has received, would any abducter in their right mind hold on to her for such a long period of time?

3) From 2) what are the chances of Madeleine now being found alive?

4)  The only chance of Maddie being alive is if she was "stolen to order" as  a child to become part of a family group.  If this were the case she would by now probably be completely acclimatised iinto her new family with little, if any, memories of her previous life.

5)  In cases of alleged abduction or kidnapping, the Police shun any form of publicity as this will immediately put the offender on the defensive.  Unfortunately the McCanns chose to create the maximum amount of publicity right from the first discovery of her being missing.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 22, 2013, 05:50:53 pm
The McCanns were middle class, professional people. So, of course, they couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.  :roll:

I find the whole business upsetting and cannot imagine for one moment the torment the McCanns are going through but they have no one to blame but themselves and will have to live with their guilt for the rest of their lives.
Anyone else may have been charged with child neglect because that is what it was, there is no nice way of putting it other than that.
Yorkie is correct in everything he has said and his experience in the force will have led him to those conclusions.
What I find hard to except if that according to the papers the McCanns refused to answer all the questions put to them and I cannot understand why if they were so desperate to find Maddie. Obviously some of the questions would be of a personal nature but after all they were one of the last people to see her before she was abducted.
My thoughts are with that family and I pray that one day they will be united with Maddie.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 22, 2013, 07:24:23 pm
This from the Delaware Times USA (July 9th 2013):

"By CHRIS FREIND
Times Columnist

In past columns, I have championed Don Imus keeping his job, defended Barry Bonds’ achievements and stood up for the falsely accused Duke lacrosse players long before it was “fashionable” for the media to do so. I even opined that Paris Hilton was wrongly jailed, receiving unfair treatment because she was a celebrity.

But no matter how much I try, I simply cannot find anything worth defending about British couple Gerry and Kate McCann.

The McCanns, for a reason that wholly escapes me, have been worldwide media darlings since their then-3-year-old daughter, Madeleine, disappeared from a Portuguese resort in 2007. A disappearance, mind you, that was 100 percent preventable had Maddy’s parents — both well-to-do physicians — not left her alone, along with her twin 2-year-old siblings, in a ground-floor unlocked apartment not once, but repeatedly, while they sampled the local paella far from their children.

Such gross negligence should have made them pariahs, but instead, their vaunted PR machine fashioned them into something akin to “heroic victims.”

Over the years, they have raised millions, engendered the support of (misguided) icons such David Beckham and J.K. Rowling, had a private audience with the Pope, met with high-ranking staff of then-First Lady Laura Bush, wrote a book, and otherwise lavished in the limelight as globetrotting celebrities.

Along the way, lawsuits have been threatened against anyone who dared question the McCanns’ complicity in their daughter’s fate, despite significant inconsistencies in their stories. Quite sickeningly, their actual search for Maddy all too often seemed like an afterthought, as it was much cooler to hang with stars and dignitaries than do the grunt work.

Yet for all the baggage that should accompany them, their star power still shines bright, as the Scotland Yard, upon the direction of Prime Minister David Cameron himself, just re-opened the investigation, citing new leads and “persons of interest.”

Really? After six years and millions of British taxpayers’ money later, they finally have persons of interest?

Aren’t there laws on the books in Britain against child endangerment? Reckless behavior? Negligence? And to those who say Britain can’t prosecute for a crime committed overseas, you can’t have it both ways, as British investigators are reaching out across Europe in a (likely ill-fated) attempt to interrogate and possibly have suspects arrested in other countries.

It seems increasingly clear that McCann case is no longer about what happened to a little girl, but an attempt — some say cover-up — to absolve “upstanding Brits” of any responsibility, conveniently blaming Portugal, the poor man of Europe, for a botched investigation and overall ineptness.

Looking past the gushing pro-McCann headlines, many the world over believe the parents, accidentally or otherwise, were directly responsible for Maddy’s fate. I certainly cannot make that claim, though Gerry and Kate would seem to be guilty of child endangerment. That said, there remain inconsistencies which, to this day, remain unanswered.

Therefore, if Scotland Yard wishes to retain its legendary reputation, it needs to investigate the case from Square One, objectively, free from outside influence. No sacred cows, and no one off the table. And the only way to do that is to start with Gerry and Kate, (and their friends who accompanied them that fateful night), forcing the parents to answer tough questions. The taxpayers, and those who have so faithfully followed this saga for so long, deserve no less.

You don’t need to be Sherlock Holmes to ask the following:

1.) Will the McCanns and their friends take lie-detectors tests? While not guaranteed, they’re a good barometer. If there is nothing to hide, releasing the results would be a public relations boon, and the investigation could center on Madeleine — for a change.

2.) What time was Madeleine discovered missing? Was it 9 o’clock, as Kate states, or 10 o’clock as others report, and why the discrepancy? How long did it take for anyone to initially call the police, as there are reports of a significant delay. Kate stated that the shutters were forced open, but the police and hotel staff said there was no evidence of tampering. And Kate, why, upon discovering that your daughter was missing, did you return to the restaurant, leaving the 2-year-old twins alone (again!), while a predator could still have been lurking nearby?

3.) Kate yelled, “They’ve taken her”, but how did she know Madeleine was abducted? After all, the doors were unlocked, and Madeleine was known to sleepwalk.

Or perhaps this little girl just happened to awaken, scared,in a dark, unfamiliar place, and looked for the comfort of her parents. Not seeing them, might she have walked out the unlocked door to find them? And when Kate initially yelled “they” took her, to whom was she referring?

4.) The resort was extremely child-friendly. Why not use its inexpensive baby-sitting services? Some reports state that the McCanns did not want the children to be around people with whom they were unfamiliar. Yet, the same people who ran the day camp the children attended were also the baby sitters. And how could “strangers” be any worse than leaving three young children (with a combined age of 7) alone in an unlocked apartment?

5.) How often did the parents check the children before Madeleine went missing? Every hour, half-hour, or not at all? (The statements of the resort staff differ markedly from the McCanns). Since the room was a considerable distance away from the restaurant, and its view blocked, how could the McCanns compare that “secure arrangement” to eating in their backyard garden?

6.) During a BBC interview, Kate was adamant that the children would not awaken while she and Gerry were dining. Yet, since Madeleine reportedly had a history of sleepwalking, how could Kate be so sure of this?

7.) How many nights did the McCanns dine out while leaving the children alone? What were the distances of those restaurants from their room? Were any away from the hotel?

8.) How much money raised has actually has been allocated to the physical search for Madeleine? A thorough and independent forensic audit should be conducted.

9.) In an earlier interview, the McCanns stated, “Looking at it from where we are now, I don’t feel we were irresponsible, I feel we are very responsible parents.” Do they still feel that way?

10.) Assume that the police dog was accurate in its detection of death in the room, and the death was that of Madeleine. Why then would the perpetrator take away a dead child?

At a minimum, these questions are a logical starting point to get to the bottom of Madeleine’s disappearance.

As a wise man once said, lies reveal more than they conceal. If Scotland Yard does its job, perhaps we shall put that saying to the test.

Chris Freind is an independent commentator who operates FreindlyFireZone.com. He can be reached at CF@FreindlyFireZone.com. His column appears every Wednesday."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on July 22, 2013, 07:41:47 pm
The McCanns, for a reason that wholly escapes me, have been worldwide media darlings since their then-3-year-old daughter, Madeleine, disappeared from a Portuguese resort in 2007.
He obviously doesn't keep a very close eye on the UK press. The McCanns were vilified at one point by the entire press and practically accused of being involved in the murder of their child.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on July 22, 2013, 07:56:25 pm
Mr Freind seems to be bang on what many intelligent and interested people think.

The main theory expressed is that Maddie suffered a fatal accident in the apartment and efforts were made by a person or persons, as yet unknown, to arrange a cover up of the facts.   Whether this is true is not certain, but many aspects of the evidence, forensic and otherwise, give some support to this theory.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 22, 2013, 11:32:50 pm
1.) Will the McCanns and their friends take lie-detectors tests? While not guaranteed, they’re a good barometer. If there is nothing to hide, releasing the results would be a public relations boon, and the investigation could center on Madeleine — for a change.


That was one of the questions that puzzled me at the time as desperate situations call for desperate measures.   I had also read that an American Psychic Crime fighter had been so successful in solving crimes that she was warned that if she continued to work for the Police then a contract would be taken out to have her killed.  As a result of this threat she ceased her activities with the Police.
Whether the McCanns considered approaching such a person, I don't know but I just hope that if they didn't then it wasn't Religion that made them decide against it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on July 23, 2013, 12:12:09 am
Read from the beginning.  http://www.maddiemystery.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://www.maddiemystery.blogspot.co.uk/)
 :-X
Yes i agree with you on over the mc cann case i thought it very odd for those children to be left and wrong, but that didnt prevent me feeling a very deep sadness for the loss of all concerned. I actually didnt pinpoint any particular case ??? i was generalising my feelings of createing a safer place for kids on the streets. As well as at home .
I think it is the gentlemen discussing the Maddie case. I will read the Blog you mention
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on July 25, 2013, 12:05:39 am
The above article was from two years ago BTW.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on July 25, 2013, 11:37:10 pm
Poor old Lord McAlpine was really stitched-up by the BBC a few weeks ago and I for one was totally gobsmacked when he was so falsely accused. What the Beeb should have done was to look at which Cabinet Minister was summarily sacked by Mrs Thatcher during the time the abuse was going on, a man with a proven preference for young boys, who we subsequently foisted off on the Europeans.     :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 11, 2013, 02:33:56 pm
Time for another addition of Scum to this thread. We have the wonderful excuse of 'mental health issues' to explain his behaviour. No doubt he has no job and is the usual waste of oxygen funded by the rest of us who have to work for a living.


A WOMAN’S head was said to have been “bouncing on the pavement” after a violent attack in a  street.

Defendant Richard Iveson initially punched his then partner square in the face in Llandudno.

She fell to the ground apparently out cold, Mold Crown Court was told yesterday. Witnesses saw him walk away but then return and kick her to the side, said prosecutor David Mainstone.

 But one on-looker was shocked to see him pick her up off the ground by her arms and then, while she was in the sitting position, he kicked her full in the face.
Her head hit the pavement and was then seen to be bouncing.

Iveson, 29, of Prospect Terrace, Llandudno, admitted a wounding charge and was jailed for 15 months.

 Judge Niclas Parry made a restraining order under which he is not to approach his former partner.

 “Be in no doubt about it, this was a shocking and sickening attack on a vulnerable female in a busy public place.

 “A number of passers-by were sickened and concerned.

 “You punched her with such force that she fell seemingly unconscious. One witness heard the sound of the punch from some distance.

 “You then lifted her to a sitting position before kicking her full in the face, and kicking her a second time.”

 But he had pleaded guilty, the injuries were mercifully not so serious, there had been an element of provocation  and the judge said that he had regard to the defendant’s mental health issues.

 Jayne La-Grua, defending, said that the prosecution papers showed that the defendant had been in a betting shop when the complainant entered and struck him. There had clearly been an element of provocation.

 The defendant had not been in trouble until he was 25 or 26 and it was clear that there had been mental health difficulties. He had a very supportive mother, a retired social worker, who had been funding private help for him.

 Iveson, she said, was a man in emotional and psychological distress. It was accepted that the relationship was a destructive one, that they were not good for each other. That day both had been drinking.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/richard-iveson-man-jailed-kicking-5873259 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/richard-iveson-man-jailed-kicking-5873259)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on September 11, 2013, 07:36:32 pm
Let's hope people with emotional and psychological distress in prison will give him the proper punishment he deserves. 

$angry1$

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 11, 2013, 09:25:24 pm

Defendant Richard Iveson initially punched his then partner square in the face in Llandudno.



I think 'Square' is a very odd name for a lady.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2013, 07:16:09 am
'Mental illness'  is almost inevitably defined in terms of its anti-social propensities. But what's the solution? Because he's not alone.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2013, 12:32:50 pm
To be fair she doesn't sound like an Angel either. She attacked him first, obviously his reaction was completely wrong, but then again it shouldn't be acceptable for a woman to hit a man and expect to get away with it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on September 13, 2013, 05:29:14 am
'Mental illness'  is almost inevitably defined in terms of its anti-social propensities. But what's the solution? Because he's not alone.

How long have you suffered with this condition Ian?

 :cyclist40:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 13, 2013, 08:23:21 am
Quote
How long have you suffered with this condition Ian?

 _))*

Not sure, but it might have started when I first encountered your good self...

 WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 13, 2013, 07:22:15 pm
To be fair she doesn't sound like an Angel either. She attacked him first, obviously his reaction was completely wrong, but then again it shouldn't be acceptable for a woman to hit a man and expect to get away with it.

Correct Dave, how dare she disturb the poor chap, when he was busy concentrating in the bookies.  That'll teach her eh?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2013, 09:28:31 pm
To be honest, I'm almost lost for words at B2R's comment. Perhaps if it had been a female member of his family being knocked unconscious by a man, he might have a different view?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2013, 07:00:32 am
Whilst I'm not defending this bloke's behaviour, I'm a little unsure what being a female has to do with anything.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2013, 07:03:52 am
I was brought up to believe that violence towards women was always unacceptable, regardless of any provocation.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 16, 2013, 07:16:03 am
Whilst I'm not defending this bloke's behaviour, I'm a little unsure what being a female has to do with anything.

It's very important as far as childbirth is concerned!   And a few other matters!    ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2013, 11:34:40 am
Quote
I was brought up to believe that violence towards women was always unacceptable, regardless of any provocation.

Indeed, and the rationale for such convictions is that it's always a matter of brute strength against the more vulnerable. But you might be surprised to know that one third of victims of domestic violence are men. There are refuges for men, run by local councils, and the Indie reported recently on a sad case:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/domestic-violence-as-a-man-its-very-difficult-to-say-ive-been-beaten-up-8572143.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/domestic-violence-as-a-man-its-very-difficult-to-say-ive-been-beaten-up-8572143.html)

I abhor violence and I detest bullying, but (and without any reference to this case in particular) things in this area are not as straightforward as many imagine.  Many women have also been known to employ the natural reluctance of most men to use physical violence against women to commit serious assaults on their partners and the courts are now starting to recognise this.

Violence against the vulnerable is bullying and the last refuge of the incompetent, but I'd tend to leave gender out of the argument. Times are changing.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2013, 11:38:19 am
The Mayo clinic is a good source of information on this:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence-against-men/MY00557 (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/domestic-violence-against-men/MY00557)

and Shelter has an advice line

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships/domestic_abuse/domestic_abuse_against_men (http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/families_and_relationships/domestic_abuse/domestic_abuse_against_men)

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2013, 12:34:39 pm
I was brought up to believe that violence towards women was always unacceptable, regardless of any provocation.

you are wrong.

Violence towards anybody is unnacceptable.

The sterotypical  and narrow minded view on domestic violence you have makes violence adds to this kind of thing. Woman thinking they can attack men and nothing will happen, or men being too afraid to report such attacks because of fear of ridicule. If it had been a man who went into a bookies, punched someone in the face then got his head kicked in I doubt anybody would be condemming the attacker. But because it's a woman it's all different! What happened to equal rights?

My opinion they should both be charged for assualt!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2013, 01:47:51 pm
You obviously missed the Judge's comments:

"this was a shocking and sickening attack on a vulnerable female"

Still, I expect you know better....  :roll:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 16, 2013, 03:15:37 pm
In fact, I wouldn't flash the Celtic Badge around too much.  Do it in the wrong place, such as Glasgow, and you can get your head kicked in for no apparent reason whatsoever!
 *&(
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2013, 04:02:16 pm
I think the reason I would want the book thrown at him was this:

"Witnesses saw him walk away but then return and kick her to the side, said prosecutor David Mainstone."

More than anything that speaks to mental illness but also to the most dangerous kind.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Trojan on September 17, 2013, 06:20:39 am
In fact, I wouldn't flash the Celtic Badge around too much.  Do it in the wrong place, such as Glasgow, and you can get your head kicked in for no apparent reason whatsoever!
 *&(

But it's a Glasgow Celtic badge.

Maybe in Bridgeton, yes.

But not in the Gorbals.  $angry1$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 17, 2013, 08:24:43 am

But it's a Glasgow Celtic badge.

Maybe in Bridgeton, yes.

But not in the Gorbals.  $angry1$

There is always the  Blue..... brigade   ;)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on September 24, 2013, 08:05:02 pm
In fact, I wouldn't flash the Celtic Badge around too much.  Do it in the wrong place, such as Glasgow, and you can get your head kicked in for no apparent reason whatsoever!
 *&(

Yeah, but this isn't Govan is it? It's north Wales, and there are quite a few people in this area that feel an affinity with Celtic. Me being one.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 24, 2013, 08:11:39 pm
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.  I am not implying that the Celtic Badge should not be flashed about in any particular place, least of all North Wales.   But having lived in the greater Glasgow area I am cognisant of the differences twixt the Green and Blue.    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Kowalski on September 24, 2013, 08:13:12 pm
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.  I am not implying that the Celtic Badge should not be flashed about in any particular place, least of all North Wales.   But having lived in the greater Glasgow area I am cognisant of the differences twixt the Green and Blue.    ZXZ

So you must have noticed that north Wales isn't greater Glasgow.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 24, 2013, 08:20:48 pm
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.  I am not implying that the Celtic Badge should not be flashed about in any particular place, least of all North Wales.   But having lived in the greater Glasgow area I am cognisant of the differences twixt the Green and Blue.    ZXZ

So you must have noticed that north Wales isn't greater Glasgow.

Having lived here for 25 years, I have discovered lots about Wales and its people, and the overall conclusion is that it is not unlike any other place in the UK.  Although, of choice, I would prefer the South East of England which is the place of my roots.   :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 24, 2013, 08:42:31 pm
there are quite a few people in this area that feel an affinity with Celtic.
Genuine question - why is that?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 25, 2013, 12:33:57 am
there are quite a few people in this area that feel an affinity with Celtic.
Genuine question - why is that?

Well, other than Kowalski and Born To Run, I don't know any!

However, I have noticed that there are a large number of Everton fans.  More than any other club without doubt.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 25, 2013, 01:49:14 pm
there are quite a few people in this area that feel an affinity with Celtic.
Genuine question - why is that?

Same reason there is a strong affinity to Everton.

The proximity of Liverpool - and Liverpool's (and somewhat North Wales) connections to Irish heritage.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 23, 2013, 08:09:22 am
TWO masked knifemen who terrified a family in their own home during an early morning burglary have been locked up for eight years.

A judge told heroin addicts Colin Maher and Michael Rhodes from Rhyl that it was “the stuff of nightmares”.

Prosecutor David Mainstone told Mold Crown Court  how Chantelle Palmer, 20, who was staying the night with her parents in Kinmel Bay, was woken by a bang to find two men in the room – one had a hood covering most of his face and the other had a scarf covering his lower face.

Both were wearing gloves, and one stood over her bed three feet away.

He looked at her and told her to give him money.

Miss Palmer sat up and explained that she did not have any and was terrified to see he had a knife with an eight-inch blade in his hand.

“The next thing she knew, he was holding the knife to her throat. She moved her head away and he again told her to give him money,” said Mr Mainstone.

She tried to grab her phone but the attacker took it from her and poked her in the knee with the point of the knife three times.

He punched her, she bravely hit him back and there was a struggle.

While that was going on, a young woman aged 17 who was also in the room was woken to find a knife being held to her throat by the other man.

“The knife was thrust at her five times before he punched out at her but she pulled her head away and they didn’t connect,” Mr Mainstone explained.

She heard the first knifeman say that “his boys are outside”.

Chantelle’s parents heard a commotion and entered the room. Her mother Ananka Palmer saw a man holding a knife at her daughter and then she “felt an arm and something cold across her neck”.

“She realised a knife was being held across her throat. She pushed the man away with both hands, hard, she saw his face was covered and was terrified. She ran out of the room and was shaking.”

Her husband Carl Palmer grabbed hold of one of the knifemen and they struggled with each other.

But he then lunged at Mr Palmer with a screwdriver in a stabbing motion but he was able to grab the attacker’s throat.

It was at that stage that Chantelle bravely took the screwdriver away from the attacker.

Both attackers fled in a stolen car.

A television and other property had been taken and their Corsa car had been moved and collided with the porch.

Chantelle later told how she had never been so frightened in her life and her mother told how it had been “by far the worst thing she has ever been through”.

Maher, 31, of Princess Street in Rhyl, and Rhodes, 33, of Ellis Avenue, Rhyl, admitted aggravated burglary at the house in Denbigh Circle, Kinmel Bay, in the early hours of May 14 – together with other burglaries – and each was jailed for eight years.

Maher also received an addition 18 months for possessing heroin with intent to supply- making nine and a half years in all.

Matthew Curtis, for Maher, said that he used heroin from an early age, that night was under the influence of alcohol, but accepted that did not excuse his behaviour.

Nicholas Williams, for Rhodes, said he moved to Rhyl to make a fresh start, Maher arrived at his home in a stolen car, they shared a bottle of whisky and he recalled little of the night’s events on May 14 but clearly joined in the spree that Maher had already started. He was deeply ashamed.

Judge Rhys Rowlands said: “To wake up in a situation such as this, to find someone armed with a knife in the bedroom, not one person but two, must be the stuff of nightmares. It understandably had a profound effect the victims.”

He added: “This was truly a terrifying ordeal at the hands of the two of you.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/masked-knifemen-rhyl-jailed-eight-6224309 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/masked-knifemen-rhyl-jailed-eight-6224309)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mikethewatch on October 23, 2013, 08:49:28 am
No doubt be out in around 4 years at it again!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 05, 2013, 10:26:10 am
I must apologise in advance to Kowalski because I believe this Michael Chambers guy to be scum. I'm sure he will correct me and tell me that Mr Chambers is actually a fine, upstanding chap who just has a few problems.

Baby submerged in bath of hot water suffered catalogue of abuse
4 Nov 2013 16:35


Sadistic Michael Chambers from Bangor threw the chilld against a wall, struck it with a blow-up “SpongeBob” toy and even  burned the youngster with a cigarette, Caernarfon crwon court was told.

Prosecutor Sion ap Mihangel said Chambers, 22 of Lon Ogwen  also threw the child against a wall, squirted cola into the baby's hair, threw a trainer at the infant and verbally abused the baby calling it "mong child."

On one occasion deodorant was squirted in the baby's hair despite the youngster having a skin allergy, and during other incidents the baby was burned with a cigarette and squeezed to make it cry, Mr ap Mihangel added.

He had also been physically abusive towards a young woman.

Chambers was jailed for four years. He admitted ill-treating a child, trying to pervert the course of justice, threatening to kill the woman by injecting her with bleach, and assault causing actual bodily harm.

Judge Niclas Parry labelled Chambers  a "bully and control freak."

There were "sustained, repeated attacks" on the woman who the prosecution said had once blacked out after being strangled with a sock placed around her neck. She had also allegedly been punched, kicked and spat at, and her nose had been bitten.

Dafydd Roberts, defending, said Chambers had been taking steroids at the time. He had enrolled on an anger management course in custody.

Judge Parry told Chambers: "Any right-minded member of the public would be sickened by what we heard. It was sadistic behaviour."

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bangor-man-jailed-four-years-6270449 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bangor-man-jailed-four-years-6270449)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on December 20, 2013, 10:53:27 am
Instant justice!  :laugh:

A metal thief who touched a 25,000 volt power line was "lifted into the air like a ghost", an inquest has heard.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-25447936 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-25447936)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 22, 2014, 09:36:42 am
I see a prominent former policeman, rotarian and freemason from Colwyn Bay has been arrested as part of the Operatin Pallial investigation into child abuse.

"An ex-police chief has been arrested on suspicion of sexually abusing care home boys as young as eight.

Retired North Wales superintendent   Gordon Anglesea, 76, was questioned over allegations seven children were assaulted between 1975 and 1983.

He is the 18th person to arrested by police from Operation Pallial, investigating claims of historic sexual abuse at 18 care homes in the region between 1963 and  1992.

Mr Anglesea – a Rotary Club member and Freemason – was quizzed in December as part of the probe. He is now on bail."


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/gordon-anglesea-retired-police-chief-6536447 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/gordon-anglesea-retired-police-chief-6536447)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 27, 2014, 12:57:10 pm
The Rothesay 'hotel' in Colwyn Bay continues in its role as a dumping ground for the dregs of society. How does a convicted paedophile from Oldham end up living there?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-25884591 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-25884591)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on January 27, 2014, 11:59:30 pm
The Rothesay 'hotel' in Colwyn Bay continues in its role as a dumping ground for the dregs of society. How does a convicted paedophile from Oldham end up living there?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-25884591 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-25884591)
Disturbing but not surprising, seems to be a dumping ground around North wales sadly for quite a few undesirables. Although i remember posting my own views some time ago and was told these people need help. Hmmm! yeh help  off the end of the pier!. I have been told some offenders get sent here out of their own areas. I dont know if true but i wish we could stop this happening. No point in spending huge amounts on tourist facilities when our local news contains such shocking stuff. Very off putting for anyone as well as visitors.

are roaming
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 28, 2014, 09:01:16 am
Better extend the "undesirables" tag to all classes of society, such as MP's, Stars of Stage Screen and Radio, Senior Police Officers, Government Officers, Doyens of Industry, or any other branch of Society!

Just think you could be living next door to one, or even have one in your own extended family!
 >>>
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2014, 12:53:07 pm
Better extend the "undesirables" tag to all classes of society, such as MP's, Stars of Stage Screen and Radio, Senior Police Officers, Government Officers, Doyens of Industry, or any other branch of Society!

Just think you could be living next door to one, or even have one in your own extended family!
 >>>

..... celebrity chefs, senior church figures (of various), Councillors, senior executives of the Newspaper and Media, TV Soap Opera stars,  Sportsmen.....

Examples of all of these from recent months.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on January 29, 2014, 12:23:59 am
Quite right ! class and education doesnt even come into it.Seems to be so much in the news at the moment but we have to get things into prospective as well.  Dave R pointing out about this previously convicted guy living on Colwyn Bay promenade in a hotel that gives semi permanent shelter to homeless families got me thinking .Correct me if im wrong but wouldnt this paedophile have been known to be resident in the area by local police. If that is so why allow him in a family hotel?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Linda on January 29, 2014, 12:26:03 am
Better extend the "undesirables" tag to all classes of society, such as MP's, Stars of Stage Screen and Radio, Senior Police Officers, Government Officers, Doyens of Industry, or any other branch of Society!

Just think you could be living next door to one, or even have one in your own extended family!
 >>>
:-X
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on February 18, 2014, 01:10:18 pm
Colwyn Bay man assaulted holidaymaker
Published date: 06 February 2014 | Published by: Staff reporter

A HOLIDAYMAKER from Trinidad who had been told a Welsh seaside town was "quiet with very little trouble" had been racially abused and punched in the face outside a pub, a court heard.

Magistrates at Llandudno imposed a 16 weeks suspended jail term on 37-year-old Michael Cody who they heard had 125 offences on his record and had drunk ten bottles of lager. There will be twelve months supervision.

He was convicted of racially aggravated common assault after a trial.

The prosecution said that drunken Cody had racially abused then later ran back to the victim, who was with two black friends in Colwyn Bay town centre.

He hit Mahendre Boodoo, who fell to the ground and suffered a cut lip in an “unprovoked” attack last June. A doorman held Cody until police arrived.

Prosecutor Rhian Jackson said Mr Boodoo went to a local hospital for treatment but discharged himself after waiting two to three hours.

He told police that he had travelled to Britain with friends for a sightseeing holiday and people had been friendly "telling them Colwyn Bay was a quiet town with very little trouble." He felt safe.

Mrs Jackson said: "He was enjoying his holiday until the incident. He just wanted to return home. He will now only remember his stay in Colwyn Bay for the place he was assaulted for no reason.

"He was intending to visit Scotland. He felt shocked and upset by what happened." 

Defence solicitor Donald Roberts said Cody, of Abergele Road, Colwyn Bay, on benefits, insisted he wasn't racist and had no convictions for violence for more than 12 years. He apologised in a police interview and said he was “devastated.”

Mr Roberts said a prison sentence would result in his son going into care. Cody claimed it wasn’t skin colour which led to the trouble but the visitors’ “hands on” dancing that night.

Cody must pay £250 compensation and £80 victims’ surcharge.

Court chairwoman Vivienne Lomas told him :”This was a very serious offence. You made an unprovoked attack on a visitor to this country.”

The sentence was suspended because of his son.

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/130787/colwyn-bay-man-assaulted-holidaymaker.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/130787/colwyn-bay-man-assaulted-holidaymaker.aspx)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on February 18, 2014, 03:38:25 pm
and they wonder whats wrong with this country , 125 previous convictions ,he,d drank 10 lagers,if he worked he couldn,t afford to drink that much ,and i wonder how he,ll pay the fines . :rage: :rage:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on February 18, 2014, 04:46:42 pm
Mr Roberts said a prison sentence would result in his son going into care.
How so? Who was looking after his son whilst he was drinking 10 pints of lager?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2014, 05:33:43 pm
Quote
   
Quote
Mr Roberts said a prison sentence would result in his son going into care.

How so? Who was looking after his son whilst he was drinking 10 pints of lager?

The Social Services will have been involved with the family for a long time. In cases like that it would be highly unusual if they were not active cases.

The drunken assault issue is one which bedevils towns on every weekend. What's the solution?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on February 18, 2014, 06:06:01 pm
Have the same rules as for drivers, if someone is drunk in public and causing trouble breathalize them and if over the limit, large fines and a long curfew on them!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on February 18, 2014, 07:23:35 pm
Vigilantes - out and about delving out the punishment that fits the crime!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2014, 08:26:31 pm
Quote
Mr Roberts said a prison sentence would result in his son going into care.

How so? Who was looking after his son whilst he was drinking 10 pints of lager?

That's the question that should be answered, and if it was the child's mother then there is no reason whatsoever for Cody not to go to prison especially in view of his appalling record.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on February 19, 2014, 07:18:34 am
What I find mildly curious is why he didn't. The local Magistrature are not known for their lenience in cases of physical assaults, regardless of personal circumstances.  Methinks there's more to this than we know.

The 125 offences sounds terrible, until we read that they probably all occurred more than 12 years ago.  But the number, I hear being muttered.  Yes - 125 seems a lot, but we don't know what sort of offences, how serious they were nor how many at one time he might have asked to 'be taken into consideration'.  For all we know it might have been 124 litter dropping incidents and one 'spitting in a public place', although I agree that's hardly likely. But the point is we don't know and can only assume they must have had compelling reasons to leave him free.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2014, 11:32:30 am
It's just over 12 years since someone broke into my car on the driveway and tried to take it away.  They may have succeeded had I not been alerted by my dog but when I went to the car at the bottom of my drive the culprits had gone but hundreds of pounds worth of damage had already been done to the ignition.
The CID were pretty  useless and refused to take any fingerprints etc so I do not have too much faith in them when it comes to incidents like mine.
At the time there were a number of incidents in the area and they were attributed to the same person and I have my suspicions that this person was involved in mine too although thanks to the inactivity of the Police I can't prove it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on February 19, 2014, 01:07:41 pm
When you say "The CID were pretty  useless and refused to take any fingerprints " that is actually grounds for complaint.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on February 19, 2014, 01:53:24 pm
Have the same rules as for drivers, if someone is drunk in public and causing trouble breathalize them and if over the limit, large fines and a long curfew on them!

Apart from the breathalize bit that is exactly what they do know isn't it?
Unless they make a law saying it's illegal to be drunk in public full stop, the breathalizer idea is redundant
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2014, 04:36:38 pm
When you say "The CID were pretty  useless and refused to take any fingerprints " that is actually grounds for complaint.

The Police Constable who arrived on the scene was excellent and very professional and looked for any evidence that could possibly determine who the criminal was.   He asked me to sit in the driving seat but not to touch anything and one of the things we discovered was that the crook had adjusted the driving mirror and a print was visible on the glass.  Then the CID came and I was then told that it wasn't possible to take prints from the vehicle in view of the material that the interior of the car was made of.
I didn't press this at the time as my wife was ill and I had more important things on my mind.
I had criminal damage caused to another car in Morrisons car park and although this was caught on CCTV the Police decided not to do anything and wouldn't do a forensic test on the paint that the car had left on my car.
The Police in general do a wonderful job in difficult circumstances but in my experience justice comes at a price and while they are governed by restraints on finances and resources then crooks will continue to get away with what the Police consider to be minor crime.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on February 19, 2014, 04:40:43 pm
Have the same rules as for drivers, if someone is drunk in public and causing trouble breathalize them and if over the limit, large fines and a long curfew on them!

Apart from the breathalize bit that is exactly what they do know isn't it?
Unless they make a law saying it's illegal to be drunk in public full stop, the breathalizer idea is redundant
There has been a Law for donkey's years and it is an offence to be Drunk and Incapable or Drunk and Disorderly in a Public place.  If one decided to use an Intoximeter a reading level would have to be decided.  But as we all react to alcohol in a different way it would be virtually impossible to agree a figure that could not be subject to appeal.

There is also a responsibility for Pub Landlords not to serve anyone who appears to be intoxicated. 

A complete ban on drinking in public places may be a part answer to the problems associated with alcohol consumption.
 Z**  Z**  Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on February 19, 2014, 04:58:42 pm
£80 penalties include;

Wasting police time or giving false report

Using public telecommunications system for sending false messages

Knowingly giving a false alarm to a fire brigade

Causing harassment, alarm or distress

Throwing fireworks in a thoroughfare

Drunk & disorderly

Selling alcohol to person under 18

Purchasing alcohol for person under 18 in licensed premises

Purchasing alcohol for person under 18 for consumption in a bar in licensed premises

Delivering alcohol to person under 18 or allowing such delivery

Destroying/damaging property (under £500)

Theft (retail under £200)

Breach of fireworks curfew

Possessing Category 4 firework

Possessing adult firework by person under 18

£50 penalties include;

Trespassing on a railway

Throwing stones etc. at trains or other things on railways

Being drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises

Consuming alcohol in designated public place

Depositing and leaving litter

Consuming alcohol by person under 18 in licensed premises

Allowing consumption of alcohol by person under 18 in licensed premises

Not many tickets are issued for just being drunk. If that were the case most people would get one during the weekend nights and thats just not practical. The statistics from 2004 (only ones I could find) show that 63,639 Penalty Notices for Disorder (PNDs) were issued by police forces in England and Wales in 2004.

The highest volume offences were 'causing harassment, alarm or distress' (28,790 PNDs issued) and 'drunk and disorderly' (26,609 issued). These two offences accounted for 87% of PNDs issued.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on February 19, 2014, 09:49:52 pm
I read in thje Pioneer today local people in Junction are signing a petition to keep PC Mike Smith on the beat in their town.  I don't blame them either not only is a fab policeman but he's also very easy on the eye and there's nothing wrong with a bit of eye candy  :P
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on February 19, 2014, 10:43:56 pm
No doubt Dave R will rush to sign that petition, for those very same reasons.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 05, 2014, 09:21:08 am
Such lovely people....

A brother and sister who spat in the face of a woman bus driver may be jailed.

Jason and Chelsea Fallas, both of Llandudno, pleaded guilty at Llandudno magistrates court to common assault on driver, Ingrid Cumberbatch.

A condition of their bail is that they don’t use Arriva buses in North Wales.

Thery  also admitted threatening behaviour towards the driver in an incident that took place  on January 25.

James Neary, prosecuting,  said that during the journey from Rhyl, Chelsea Fallas, a 21-year-old mother-of-two of Pacr Bodnant, had appeared to be speaking angrily on her mobile phone.

At Penrhyn Bay, where the bus stopped for a while to keep to the timetable, Jason Fallas, 20, of Ffordd Elisabeth swore and threatened to tear up a paper the driver was holding “and smash the bus up”.

He was shouting and screaming and after Ms Cumberbatch told him to get off he spat on her cheek, his face contorted with rage.

She dialled 999 for police, and then the woman also spat in her face.

Ms Cumberbatch, in a statement read to the court by Mr Neary, said: “Both got off the bus shouting and screaming. He came back again on the bus and spat again on my cheek.”

Police arrived and took samples of spittle for DNA analysis.

The bus driver told police that nothing like this had ever happened to her in her six-year career and she was “in disbelief” that people could behave that way. She had gone to the doctor to be checked in case of infection.

Elen Parry, defending, said the pair had been returning from a visit to their father who was seriously ill in hospital and they were stressed and emotional.

Jason Fallas denied returning to the bus a second time. Chelsea Farras, who wept in court, maintained she had got back on the bus to say sorry to the driver and the only other passengers, a young couple.

Being the mother of two young children she’d been anxious to get back home.

Court chairwoman Vivienne Lomas told the brother and sister: “I think you both realise the seriousness of it. It’s the first time you’ve been here (in court) and therefore we will need to get a full report. The probation service will need to look into your background and find out about you.

"We can’t rule out custody but this isn’t necessarily an indication of just what we will do.”

The case was adjourned until the end of the month for pre-sentence reports.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/llandudno-brother-sister-who-spat-6771166 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/llandudno-brother-sister-who-spat-6771166)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on March 05, 2014, 10:20:22 am
dave i will bet you anything they won,t be jailed, and if fined who will pay it ,US the tax payer,never worked and never will ,spitting at someone is the lowest . :rage:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on March 05, 2014, 11:00:25 am
"who will pay it ,US the tax payer,never worked and never will"

How do you know this?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on March 05, 2014, 12:14:14 pm
Not just those in tracksuits that are the 'benefits scum'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573597/Retired-magistrate-swindled-23-000-benefits-lying-savings-spared-jail.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573597/Retired-magistrate-swindled-23-000-benefits-lying-savings-spared-jail.html)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on March 05, 2014, 02:38:42 pm
as i said born to run i detest anyone that spits at someone, not all benefit people wear tracksuits anyway ,the biggest cheats are so called millionaires,  do you know of this couple .
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 05, 2014, 03:04:07 pm
"who will pay it ,US the tax payer,never worked and never will"

How do you know this?

as i said born to run i detest anyone that spits at someone, not all benefit people wear tracksuits anyway ,the biggest cheats are so called millionaires,  do you know of this couple .

It'll be interesting to see if Norman's correct but their yobbish behaviour is unacceptable anyway whether they are on benefits or not.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on March 05, 2014, 03:42:00 pm
as i said born to run i detest anyone that spits at someone, not all benefit people wear tracksuits anyway ,the biggest cheats are so called millionaires,  do you know of this couple .

I don't know them no. Agree about the spitting it isn't nice, but I just wondered and still do how you know they are on benefits?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2014, 11:42:18 am
as i said born to run i detest anyone that spits at someone, not all benefit people wear tracksuits anyway ,the biggest cheats are so called millionaires,  do you know of this couple .

I don't know them no. Agree about the spitting it isn't nice, but I just wondered and still do how you know they are on benefits?

I'm surprised that you are still wondering about Norman's comments about the couple being on benefits.    Perhaps his logical and educated assumption is just based on the comments recorded in the paper.
We all make assumptions, sometimes without the full information.   Perhaps this single 21 year old mother of two who lives in social housing is a financially independant person who doesn't rely on benefits or perhaps her younger brother may be an extremely hard working person who supports himself and his sister and the children financially.
I assume that it will become clearer in due course but back in the real world if I were a betting person then I know where my bets would be placed
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 06, 2014, 12:40:39 pm
Interesting one. What concerns me is the fine example being set by this woman for her children.  In Sociological terms this is probably a closed circle, whereby the offspring will be reared to believe that adults throwing tantrums and committing criminal offences in public is the correct way to behave.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on March 06, 2014, 02:02:48 pm
as i said born to run i detest anyone that spits at someone, not all benefit people wear tracksuits anyway ,the biggest cheats are so called millionaires,  do you know of this couple .

I don't know them no. Agree about the spitting it isn't nice, but I just wondered and still do how you know they are on benefits?

.   Perhaps this single 21 year old mother of two who lives in social housing

The article states neither of these, and as you said it doesn't matter whether they are on benefits or not, so why bring that into it in the first place? Being on benefits isn't a crime. I think Norman made an assumption based on zero facts, because he believes that someone who committed a crime such as this could only possibly be a benefits claimant. He is wrong.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on March 06, 2014, 03:36:07 pm
not wrong at all born to run ,as i know of them ,hugo if i see you on our walks i will enlighten you,
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2014, 04:20:28 pm
Thanks Norman,  that link that Dave posted isn't the only one on this incident and everything is on a computer somewhere.      This type of incident is unacceptable in a decent society and even BTR agrees with that!    As to the possible punishment then I expect no more than a slap on the wrist for the female with perhaps community service for the male.
Arriva though should put a long ban on this couple travelling in their vehicles.
Where did BTR get this from    "because he believes that someone who committed a crime such as this could only possibly be a benefits claimant. He is wrong  "     You have never said anything of the sort, so is he making assumptions on what you could possibly be thinking?

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on March 06, 2014, 04:25:18 pm
You may be suprised - this guy got 3 years

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/131636/llandudno-man-jailed-after-taxi-driver-lost-sight-in-left-eye.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/131636/llandudno-man-jailed-after-taxi-driver-lost-sight-in-left-eye.aspx)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2014, 06:12:43 pm
That incident is horrific and the sentence was justified,  but this incident, although unacceptable is not as serious as that other one.   We'll just have to see what happens as to the sentence imposed on this charming pair.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on March 07, 2014, 02:34:14 pm
Arriva though should put a long ban on this couple travelling in their vehicles.

I agree with Hugo, a life time ban from all Arriva Buses for the pair of them. After all every employee has the right to work without threat intimidation or violence from others.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 07, 2014, 03:06:43 pm
The trouble is that this sort of thing happens to A & E staff regularly. What's the solution there?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2014, 06:15:37 pm
The trouble is that this sort of thing happens to A & E staff regularly. What's the solution there?

Just refuse to help them and call the Police.   They don't deserve anything else.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 07, 2014, 08:03:33 pm
The trouble is that this sort of thing happens to A & E staff regularly. What's the solution there?

Give them an injection of a size 10 boot up the rectum!   $smack$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Cambrian on March 08, 2014, 10:42:03 am
Only short time ago, any assault on those carrying out public duties merited an immediate custodial sentence.  This acted as a deterrent but that aspect no longer seems an ingredient in sentencing policy. If a nursing or ambulance staff are put off work because of an assault, that can mean problems for others.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2014, 11:25:19 pm
It seems this Human Rights business has gone too far to the extreme and I wonder sometimes if some of these defence lawyers are more interested in getting their clients off on technicalities rather than seeing that justice has been served.
If you listen to mitigating circumstances put forward by the defence such as " they have had a difficult childhood,  come from a broken home, problems with alcohol/ drugs , their client is full of remorse etc etc "   you begin to wonder if there is a text book somewhere that contains the wording required to fool the Courts.     :rage:     
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 09, 2014, 08:03:29 am
Quote
It seems this Human Rights business has gone too far to the extreme and I wonder sometimes if some of these defence lawyers are more interested in getting their clients off on technicalities rather than seeing that justice has been served.

It's certainly true that the defence's duty is to secure a verdict favourable to their client by whatever legal means. But 'technicalities' are there for good reason. You only have to look at the behaviour of the Met Police over many years to see that.

Quote
If you listen to mitigating circumstances put forward by the defence such as " they have had a difficult childhood,  come from a broken home, problems with alcohol/ drugs , their client is full of remorse etc etc "   you begin to wonder if there is a text book somewhere that contains the wording required to fool the Courts.

Indeed, and I'm pretty certain more than a few defence lawyers almost choke when presenting those arguments. But we live in a society which values the rights of all people, not just some, and it's a crucial plank of our justice system that everyone has the same right to a fair trial. If we decide to withdraw these rights from those we don't like, then a lot of questions would need answering, the most important being 'On what criteria would you decide someone is to be denied basic rights?' .

Let's look at a hypothetical situation. A man found to be drunk is bleeding profusely and lashes out at the A & E staff trying to help him. He injures one, who breaks her wrist in the mêlée. According to some he ought to be either left to bleed out or incarcerated. So here's the question: is he entitled to a defence attorney and should mitigating factors be taken into account?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 09, 2014, 09:56:45 am
Notwithstanding the above comments, here is an interesting point.

Factual versus Legal Guilt
The key is the difference between factual guilt (what the defendant actually did) and legal guilt (what a prosecutor can prove). A good criminal defense lawyer asks not, “Did my client do it?” but rather, “Can the government prove that my client did it?” No matter what the defendant has done, he is not legally guilty until a prosecutor offers enough evidence to persuade a judge or jury to convict.
However, the defense lawyer may not lie to the judge or jury by specifically stating that the defendant did not do something the lawyer knows the defendant did do. Rather, the lawyer’s trial tactics and arguments must focus on the government’s failure to prove all the elements of the crime.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2014, 05:18:42 pm
Ian,  you are correct of course in everything you have said and I agree that everyone should be treated equally irrespective of any allegations against them.   I'm afraid though that justice is not always delivered because of all the obstacles that are put in the way.


Yorkie, that's a very interesting statement and makes one understand part of the process of the Court proceedings and the difficulties the prosecutors have to overcome.   I wonder what would be the position if the defendant admitted the charge to the his lawyer but the defence lawyer did not admit this to the Court.
The defence lawyer would not have committed perjury as they hadn't actually lied to the Court, but could they be charged with " perverting the course of justice" if this later came out in Police enquiries?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 09, 2014, 08:46:11 pm
Prior to hanging being abolished, every time there was a murder, the Police would get any number of confessions  as some folk saw this as a subtle way to commit suicide.  Some people will still confess to crimes they did not commit just to get back to their nice warm prison and three meals a day, it is a way of life for them.

However, a Lawyer has to do the best he can for his client, whether they are guilty or not, and I suspect that most Lawyers have a good idea whether their client did it or didn't do it.  There are plenty of papers on this particular subject and much too much to start quoting here.  Have a Google through the legal subjects and enjoy a good read.
 :D    ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2014, 11:09:14 pm
Thanks for that info Yorkie but I think that I'll pass on that and leave it to the exports.    As you say many lawyers will have a good idea whether their client is guilty or not but they still have a job to do.
I suppose the Magistrates or Judges do form an opinion as well but have to be seen to be impartial and keep a dignified manner despite what may have been said by the defendant.
When I was in Court one day, I remember a case of the Water Board against a defendant from Liverpool who was accused of poaching a fish  from the Ogwen River.
The mitigating defence was read out in Court and it was that  " it was a very hot day when he was travelling home from Anglesey and he decided to paddle in the river to keep cool but unfortunately he fell in the water and somehow a Trout found it's way into his jacket pocket.    It wasn't intentional as he ( the defendant) didn't know the difference between a Trout and a Shark"
At that point of the proceedings everyone including the Magistrates just burst out laughing and when the laughing subsided the defendant was found guilty and an appropriate fine imposed on him.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 10, 2014, 07:24:31 am
During my short time in the Met Police, when off duty, I spent many an enjoyable afternoon, or even a whole day, in the Old Bailey, watching cases of all sorts.  Some of the most interesting were the high profile divorce proceedings, as there was no simple divorces in those days.
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 10, 2014, 08:43:14 am
Quote
Ian,  you are correct of course in everything you have said and I agree that everyone should be treated equally irrespective of any allegations against them.   I'm afraid though that justice is not always delivered because of all the obstacles that are put in the way.

It's true that some will escape justice: you only have to look at the likes of Lord Lucan, Robert Maxwell and Ernest Sunders, to name but three. But I wonder if you know that we lock up a greater percentage of our population than any other European country?

The evidence that sending people to prison does no good is overwhelming, yet because of egregious comics like the DFM there is always pressure to send more away. Now, I'm not advocating that no one should be jailed. There are those who need to be for the safety of society, but what I am saying is that a lot end up in prison without having committed a crime of any sort.  Recently, for instance, a girl who alleged she'd been raped was only found out when CCTV images showing her alleged rapist more than 100 miles away were unearthed by the defence. That's one we know about, but what about the many we don't?

I'm not saying justice is perfect; far from it, but until we have foolproof methods of determining guilt then I would rather retain the system we have. The alternatives are too nasty to contemplate.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2014, 06:41:48 pm
I'm not saying justice is perfect; far from it, but until we have foolproof methods of determining guilt then I would rather retain the system we have. The alternatives are too nasty to contemplate.

Ian,  I know that you don't agree with it but I'll say it again that at some time in the future the lie detector test may come into the system even if it is only as circumstantial evidence.
I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes and people on the show vehemently protest their innocence if they fail the test but then later on admit that the test was in fact correct.
OK it is not 100 per cent accurate but why are so many people who have no way of proving their innocence seemingly reluctant to take it.
For instance Amanda Knox prior to the latest trial was giving interviews and saying that she was innocent and would do a lie detector test to prove her innocence.     However now that she has been found guilty of the murder she has gone quiet on the matter of taking this test which she previously claimed would prove her innocence.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on March 10, 2014, 08:01:42 pm
I can think of one particular case that could well benefit from the use of a lie detector, but I suppose we will have to await the outcome from the 30 odd Met Police sunning themselves in Portugal!

 ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 10, 2014, 08:02:01 pm
Quote
OK it is not 100 per cent accurate but why are so many people who have no way of proving their innocence seemingly reluctant to take it.

The polygraph only measures certain physiological parameters, conductivity, blood pressure, etc., and thus are only really capable of measuring when a person becomes anxious. In use, subjects are told the polygraph is capable of detecting lies, which it simply isn't. However, imagine someone being accused of a heinous act by an intimidating interrogator.  They're highly likely to be anxious in that situation, anyway, and can often give false positives when being interviewed. That's the case with innocent people.

In the case of criminals, however, do you not seriously believe they won't have found out how to fool the machine? It's extraordinarily simple to do.  So we have a situation where the innocent might appear guilty through stress and fear while the guilty are capable of fooling the test.

The polygraph will not work effectively on psychopaths or sociopaths, either, or with many cases of Asperger syndrome or those with Autism.  So to summarise, it will show that innocent people telling the truth might be lying, but won't work at all with serious criminals.

Finally, the scientific community in general has no confidence in it, while the  National Research Council (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Research_Council) has found no evidence of effectiveness. The utility among sex offenders is also poor with insufficient evidence to support accuracy or improved outcomes in this population.

In 2001 William Iacono, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience concluded that

 
Quote
  Although the CQT [Control Question Test] may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions.

Summarizing the consensus in psychological research, professor David W. Martin, PhD, from North Carolina State University, states that

Quote
people have tried to use the polygraph for measuring human emotions, but there is simply no royal road to (measuring) human emotions. Therefore, since one cannot reliably measure human emotions (especially when one has an interest in hiding his/her emotions), the idea of valid detection of truth or falsehood through measuring respiratory rate, blood volume, pulse rate and galvanic skin response is a mere pretense. Psychologists cannot ascertain what emotions one has, with or without the use of polygraph.

I could go on, Hugo, but there are numerous studies that have been done and are available on the internet which prove that there is no reliability with the Polygraph and - far from it 'not being 100% accurate' - your grandmother's left toe would have a better chance of ascertaining the credibility of a suspect.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 10, 2014, 08:07:29 pm
Quote
I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes

Now, if ever there was a crime... :D :D :D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2014, 10:27:28 pm
Quote
I'm guilty of watching Jeremy Kyle sometimes

Now, if ever there was a crime... :D :D :D

Guilty  your Honour!       :-[    :'(
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 14, 2014, 09:16:52 pm
I am also guilty, your honour, of watching the odd episode of JK.

It has a curiosity for me, something akin to being at a Victorian freakshow,

Sadly though, I now realise that society has changed so much, that JK show participants are starting to become the majority of the population!

Tune in, you might learn something!

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2014, 08:38:25 am
Quote
It has a curiosity for me, something akin to being at a Victorian freakshow,

I think Ch4 specialises in Freak Show TV  _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on March 16, 2014, 07:54:29 pm

Make sure you keep your doors and windows locked if you live in Gogarth ward. Opportunist thieves are on the prowl and have hit two properties on Hill Terrace in the last week.  $angry1$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 22, 2014, 01:25:31 am
I noticed on the TV news that Llandudno Police Officer Gary Donnelly was found guilty of Sexual Assault of a minor, and jailed for 18 months at the Crown Court.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Pendragon on March 27, 2014, 01:01:35 pm
I was quite shocked by this if I'm honest I really thought/hoped he was innocent, just goes to show you never know.  I have to say though as much as i really did like and respect Gary as a police officer I can't understand why he only got 18 months.  This sentence seems very lenient given the charges and the age of the girl.  Also the way the case was reported by the Daily Post seemed very odd it almost suggested that we should feel sorry for Gary and his actions were somewhat justified as he had not long lost his wife.  Well I'm sorry but if I was the mother of the young girl involved these excuses and apparent reasons would simply not be good enough.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 28, 2014, 04:14:41 pm

  As to the possible punishment then I expect no more than
a slap on the wrist for the female with perhaps community service for the male.
Arriva though should put a long ban on this couple travelling in their vehicles.

Jason Fallas received a four month suspended jail sentance and must do 100 hours unpais work, pay £200.00 compensation and £165.00 costs and attend "victim sympathy sessions"
 
Chelsea Fallas received a 12 month community order with 300 hours unpaid work and a "positive thinking workbook" and must pay £150.00 compensation and £145.00 costs.

The Magistrates declined to make an order requested by Arriva Buses banning them from their services.

The defending solicitor said that they were now remorseful

If I was Arriva they should introduce the ban anyway after all they don't have to carry such people.     Who will be paying the fines I wonder?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on March 28, 2014, 05:11:12 pm
as i said hugo ,we WILL be paying ,and will they do the service ,mmm
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 28, 2014, 06:55:23 pm
What normally happens now Norman is that people make an application to pay in instalments and any unpaid fines from any previous fines are also taken into account and yes you're right we will end up paying the fine.
As for Arriva they should ban them from their buses for a long time so as to defer any other yobs from doing the same.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 07, 2014, 04:24:40 pm
http://open.justice.gov.uk/how-it-works/ (http://open.justice.gov.uk/how-it-works/)

If someone says they can't pay a fine straight away, they can ask the court if they can pay in instalments. The court may or may not agree to this.

If someone doesn't pay a fine, the court can get payment in other ways.

These include:

•further court hearings
•clamping and possibly selling an offender's car
•taking money directly from an offender's wages or benefits
•bailiffs coming to an offender's home to seize possessions
In extreme cases where a person continues to not pay their fine, they may be sent to prison.


I read this page a few times and nowhere did I see that in any circumstances the fine would have to be paid by Norman and Hugo - so you can sleep easy at night boys  ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 07, 2014, 05:46:03 pm
I can see it! If it's taken from the benefits, then indirectly we are all paying!  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 07, 2014, 10:47:42 pm
I can see it! If it's taken from the benefits, then indirectly we are all paying!  &shake&

Yes, the majority will have to pay for their unacceptable behaviour but weren't the Magistrates a bit harsh on those two poor souls making them do something that is completely alien to them
Jason     Fallas      100 hours  "unpaid WORK"         :o
Chelsea Fallas      300 hours  "unpaid WORK"          :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 08, 2014, 07:29:23 am
They will be in shock from that!  :o  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2014, 07:34:39 am
Perhaps the Mikado had it right all along. Trouble is we're bound too much by ancient (some might say primitive) concepts, such as the biblical middah ke-neged middah (an eye for an eye, figuratively) but I suspect the real problem lies not with serious crimes or offenders but with criminality deemed 'trivial' by the Justice system but which the ordinary person finds not simply repugnant but utterly anti-social.

There's long been a theory of justice which extols the virtues of meeting minor criminality head on through retributive means as opposed to simply taking revenge (one extreme) or meting out minor punishment (the other). Thus the couple involved in verbally abusing a bus official might be deemed to have inflicted specifically mental and emotional damage, so would be treated in a similar way. The problems arise when trying to construct the system, which would have to be different for each criminal.

On the question of 'who pays' the field becomes much more confusing.  In effect, we all pay for everyone who is hauled before the Beak because we all pay taxes. And let's not forget that's only the tip of the iceberg: we also all pay for the Tax collector, the Police, the education of their children (particularly galling if you don't have kids yourself, I imagine), the roads, the sand in the North shore (?), the swan droppings in the West, the rich who cleverly salt their hard-earned in off-shore trusts to deny the exchequer its dues, the people counting the goats, the bombs dropped on Afghanistan and so on.  In fact, all in all the huge amount we pay towards our society dwarfs any tiny fine handed down to low level offenders.

As always, no easy answers.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 08, 2014, 10:53:30 am
Well put  $good$
 
And we don't know that they are both on benefits either. This was just assumed long ago down the thread and taken as gospel, people who work do commit crimes as well.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 08, 2014, 01:12:43 pm
Yes that was well put Ian as we all contribute to society with our payment of taxes whether they are by direct or indirect taxation and that is only fair.  The only unfairness is with the minority of people who think that society owes them a living and although they are physically and mentally capable of work they prefer to live off the efforts of others.
One thing you are correct on BTR is that some people who work do commit crimes, as well as some  on benefits, as we have seen on TV concerning the Tory politician.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on April 08, 2014, 02:05:02 pm
born to run believe me the whole family are on benefits have done since they moved here ,and yes that is another belting story ,and one where you knew they wouldn,t serve a sentence .
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2014, 05:59:34 pm
Quote
The only unfairness is with the minority of people who think that society owes them a living and although they are physically and mentally capable of work they prefer to live off the efforts of others.

Yes, I agree there's a minority of self-serving individuals who seek to sponge off the state. Possibly however, where we differ is that I believe in the overall scheme of things they aren't that many. Naturally, because of comics like the DFM, we hear about them all the time and thus tend to believe that they're a much greater problem than they are. It's also possible to argue that the reason the DFM 'exposes' these individuals is that A) they're not too bright, B) The DFM is scared of going after the serious offenders and C) the DFM is only interested in increasing its circulation and profits and complex crimes involving massive VAT or Tax fraud don't make good reading, or at least as interesting as 'Benefit scrounger bites dog' type stories.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 08, 2014, 07:42:46 pm
Excuse my ignorance Ian but what is DFM and what has it got to do with the article on these misfits that was reported in the North Wales Weekly News?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2014, 08:37:30 am
Quote
what is DFM and what has it got to do with the article on these misfits that was reported in the North Wales Weekly News?

Sorry, Hugo.  DFM is an acronym for Daily Mail.  I'll leave it to your imagination as to what the "F" stands for  WWW

In terms of how it relates to the NWWN article I would contend that the regular outpouring of bile from that product (the DFM) actively skews perceptions across the readership (mainly women) who then view other news items through the perceptual filters applied by the DFM.

I can illustrate this easily.  In the story that originated this particular thread, there was no mention of the pair being on benefits. Had this story appeared n the DFM, however, you can be assured that not only would that have been an essential aspect of the story, but they would have dragged up other facts of which we may well still be unaware.

Although you yourself might not be a regular reader of the DFM, its contagious venom permeates thinking, even of non-readers, and thus contributes to the assumptions we all make - myself included. In its long and undistinguished history, of course, the DFM has been wrong on almost every major issue.  In the '30s, for instance, they were actively rooting for Hitler...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2014, 09:56:58 am
Quote
what is DFM and what has it got to do with the article on these misfits that was reported in the North Wales Weekly News?

Sorry, Hugo.  DFM is an acronym for Daily Mail.  I'll leave it to your imagination as to what the "F" stands for  WWW


Thanks Ian,  I take it that you don't like the DFM   ;D     I have never read it so can't comment on it but will take your word for it.
There are some nice photos of this charming pair on the internet but any comments posted here are not just based on their appearance.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: hollins on April 09, 2014, 10:07:00 am

"Thanks Ian,  I take it that you don't like the DFM"

A classic reply Hugo, made me laugh. I hadn't got a clue what DFM was either but now I am wiser I will say that although I don't read the DFM articles they do have in my opinion the best photos in the online edition of any other newspaper.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 09, 2014, 10:11:35 am
I think Ian must secretly be a keen reader of the DFM....  :twoface:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2014, 10:51:39 am
 _))* _))* _))*

But I agree about the photos...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 09, 2014, 02:08:24 pm
I read the DFM every day. Never fails to suprise me, I enjoy being angry  $angry$

This week they had some bile about about a person on benefits getting away with a few thousand quid or whatever.
in the article below they were twittering merrily about Kate Middleton flying off to New Zealand and taking with her entourage including among other things a 'personal hairdresser' without any condemnation at all!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 09, 2014, 02:25:13 pm
I read the DFM every day. Never fails to suprise me, I enjoy being angry  $angry$

This week they had some bile about about a person on benefits getting away with a few thousand quid or whatever.
in the article below they were twittering merrily about Kate Middleton flying off to New Zealand and taking with her entourage including among other things a 'personal hairdresser' without any condemnation at all!
A bit of an odd comparison. The person fiddling benefits is committing a criminal act. What is Kate Middleton doing that is illegal? Regardless of whether you approve of them or not, the money then Royals spend is authorised by Parliament, so perfectly legal. I'm no particular fan of the Royal family but I think you're firing blanks this time...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2014, 03:03:37 pm
I read the DFM every day. Never fails to suprise me, I enjoy being angry  $angry$

This week they had some bile about about a person on benefits getting away with a few thousand quid or whatever.
in the article below they were twittering merrily about Kate Middleton flying off to New Zealand and taking with her entourage including among other things a 'personal hairdresser' without any condemnation at all!
A bit of an odd comparison. The person fiddling benefits is committing a criminal act. What is Kate Middleton doing that is illegal? Regardless of whether you approve of them or not, the money then Royals spend is authorised by Parliament, so perfectly legal. I'm no particular fan of the Royal family but I think you're firing blanks this time...  :laugh:

"This time"    you're far too tactful Dave        _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2014, 03:34:32 pm
Quote
The person fiddling benefits is committing a criminal act. What is Kate Middleton doing that is illegal?

It's a fascinating conundrum, however, that evokes the thorny questions of Society's norms, legality and statutes of limitations. The Royal family itself is in power (and allowed to spend a lot of money) because their ancestors committed murder, mayhem, larceny and multiple abuses against our ancestors and got away with it, simply because they were the bigger bullies. Now, they're revered by the likes of the DFM, but one does tend to wonder about relevance and responsibility.

The issue that brings this into focus is the Age of Consent in countries around the world, a breach of which criminalises one of the individuals concerned. What is legal in some countries at 14, for instance, is termed rape or abuse in others until the age of 18. In Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, for instance, Juliet was 13 on her 'wedding' day, and that wasn't unusual, particularly in Royal Families. In the 19th and 20th Centuries, familial conjugation amongst the Royals was common, and it's only relatively recently things have changed. That's the nub of it, too; as times change, what's legal and acceptable also changes. I do sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as Right and Wrong, objectively. 

B2R was legitimately examining the DFM's obsession with what that egregious rag calls the 'benefits class' based on financial disparities, while ignoring far more significant financial disparities that might be occurring elsewhere. In fact, the current trip is largely paid for as the couple themselves are actually employed by the Government (though I doubt there's a detailed job description :-) as ambassadors and envoys and - in that sense - they do a good job.  I've been thinking for some time that the one thing that might possibly swing the outcome of the Scottish independent vote might be a major royal visit by 'er Maj. She still has a bit of clout North of the border, not to mention the odd castle or two...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 09, 2014, 03:54:58 pm
Unrelated: but on topic

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/132757/two-men-jailed-for-life-after-colwyn-bay-weapon-attack.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/132757/two-men-jailed-for-life-after-colwyn-bay-weapon-attack.aspx)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 09, 2014, 04:00:34 pm
I read the DFM every day. Never fails to suprise me, I enjoy being angry  $angry$

This week they had some bile about about a person on benefits getting away with a few thousand quid or whatever.
in the article below they were twittering merrily about Kate Middleton flying off to New Zealand and taking with her entourage including among other things a 'personal hairdresser' without any condemnation at all!
A bit of an odd comparison. The person fiddling benefits is committing a criminal act. What is Kate Middleton doing that is illegal? Regardless of whether you approve of them or not, the money then Royals spend is authorised by Parliament, so perfectly legal. I'm no particular fan of the Royal family but I think you're firing blanks this time...  :laugh:

I didn't say the person on benefits was fiddling. I don't think they were,  though it's hard to pick any salient points out of the DFM it all kind of blurs into a sort of hate filled rant collage.

It's also not illegal to be on benefits, but shows like the Jeremy Vile show on ITV and toilet paper like the Mail make it seem like the biggest crime in the world at times.

I was merely pointing out that the Royal leech made me more angry than the people on benefits and the DFM were completley ignorant or oblivious that it might be to anyone, I think you'd need a nuclear weapon to penetrate the bubble them and their readers live in.

Anyway back to local topic (see above)

 $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2014, 04:09:01 pm
Quote
Unrelated: but on topic

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/132757/two-men-jailed-for-life-after-colwyn-bay-weapon-attack.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/132757/two-men-jailed-for-life-after-colwyn-bay-weapon-attack.aspx)

Interesting.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 09, 2014, 04:22:56 pm
Seems like one drug 'gang' attacking another.

not unusual has been going on since prohibition, it led to the rise of the Mafia.
Now it seems there are drug gangs figthing in North Wales - not a good sign at all
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 08, 2014, 02:26:13 pm
How on earth did these two avoid prison?

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/rhyl-pair-attacked-man-outside-7274181 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/rhyl-pair-attacked-man-outside-7274181)

e said they had both pleaded guilty and made immediate admissions, both expressed remorse from the outset, and both accepted how disgusting their behaviour had been. Mercifully the injuries were not as bad as they could have been and both were in employment.

What the hell has being in employment got to do with the thing they did?
So if they had been on benefits or suffering a drug addiction they might have been sentenced to prison?  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2014, 04:08:40 pm
How on earth did these two avoid prison?

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/rhyl-pair-attacked-man-outside-7274181 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/rhyl-pair-attacked-man-outside-7274181)

e said they had both pleaded guilty and made immediate admissions, both expressed remorse from the outset, and both accepted how disgusting their behaviour had been. Mercifully the injuries were not as bad as they could have been and both were in employment.

What the hell has being in employment got to do with the thing they did?
So if they had been on benefits or suffering a drug addiction they might have been sentenced to prison?  :o

What the pair did was disgusting and inexcusable and shouldn't be tolerated in society but you are misguided in your opinion.     It is the defence Lawyers responsibility to provide the full facts to the Court and this statement will include their employment or otherwise status.    There is nothing in this article or anywhere else that would say that people who are employed will get a lesser or greater sentence than those receiving benefits.
Scum is scum whether they are working or not and are treated the same in Court as any one else.   Whether we like the Court's decision or not is another matter
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 08, 2014, 04:20:45 pm
It was the JUDGE who mentioned their employment status in his sentencing remarks not the defence lawyer. Clearly it had some impact or else why say it, especially when saying he was suspending their sentence.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2014, 09:39:34 pm
It was the JUDGE who mentioned their employment status in his sentencing remarks not the defence lawyer. Clearly it had some impact or else why say it, especially when saying he was suspending their sentence.

I can see how you have come to the conclusion that the Judge said that, as I've had a look at the article again but it isn't necessarily correct.   In cases where the Judge has made a comment and the reporter records the Judges word for word comments they are always encased in inverted commas.   
 In this case the statement is not in inverted commas so I suspect that this is merely the reporters interpretation of the proceedings so I
wouldn't worry too much about any persecution complex theory against the unemployed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 08, 2014, 11:48:50 pm
Nowhere does it mention any injuries as such to the victim, and without wanting to trivialize the incident, I think that he was very lucky and THEY were very lucky that more serious sentences were not forthcoming.

In my time I have been on the receiving end of several such attacks,  once being hospitalised for 3 days.
But, no one was ever jailed or even prosecuted for any of them.... and life goes on.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 09, 2014, 08:59:33 am
Nowhere does it mention any injuries as such to the victim, and without wanting to trivialize the incident, I think that he was very lucky and THEY were very lucky that more serious sentences were not forthcoming.

In my time I have been on the receiving end of several such attacks,  once being hospitalised for 3 days.
But, no one was ever jailed or even prosecuted for any of them.... and life goes on.

Me too, doesn't mean it's right. There are countless rapes and child abuse that haven't been prosecuted either, does life go on for them?
The racial remarks alone should have been enough to put these idiots in jail.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2014, 10:49:38 am
I agree with the comments of Fester and BTR and unfortunately justice is not always seen to be done.  Nothing was mentioned about any previous convictions either, so should one presume that the pair have an unblemished record with the Courts to have received such a lenient sentence?
Their employment status or otherwise though is irrelevant to the outcome of the Court proceedings
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 09, 2014, 12:17:37 pm
'Roberts had a previous conviction for assault and only custody could be justified, he said.'
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2014, 04:19:27 pm
Thanks for pointing that out BTR.  I had missed that bit.   There is no excuse then for the Judge suspending the sentence, especially with the racial remarks on top.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 09, 2014, 05:41:21 pm
Quote
There is no excuse then for the Judge suspending the sentence, especially with the racial remarks on top.

Except that it costs £40000 a year to keep someone in prison, there is ample proof that prison doesn't work and the UK government imprisons a higher percentage of its population than any other European country. Racially aggravated ABH is deplorable but perhaps properly supervised and demanding community service would have been more appropriate. Just think of the difference they might have made to the flower beds in Haulfre Gardens.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on August 13, 2014, 08:49:46 am
I'm sure the name of the alleged perpetrator will be well known to most people in Llandudno:

Man accused of robbing pensioner appears in Llandudno special court

Published date: 12 August 2014 |


A 40-year-old man appeared at a weekend special court at Llandudno accused of robbing an 82-year-old pensioner of £400 in the street.

Austin Bellew of Parc Bodnant, Llandudno, was sent in custody to Caernarfon crown court where he will appear next Monday.

His alleged victim, Mr Roy Brown, had been in Gloddaeth Avenue, Llandudno, when his cash was grabbed on Friday, said David Mainstone, prosecuting.

http://northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/136786/man-accused-of-robbing-pensioner-appears-in-llandudno-special-court.aspx (http://northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/136786/man-accused-of-robbing-pensioner-appears-in-llandudno-special-court.aspx)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on August 13, 2014, 09:02:28 am
And no doubt the court will feel very sorry for him ,lock  it up and throw away the key he,s a complete waste of space .
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 13, 2014, 01:48:33 pm
47th offence for theft and that was in 2009!      What happened to the 3 strikes and you're out proposal?


www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/47th-theft-conviction-2784573 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/47th-theft-conviction-2784573)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on August 13, 2014, 02:30:53 pm
That's the same guy as above ,diff age and address,still the same crap would rob off himself if he could .
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 13, 2014, 04:25:18 pm
That's the same guy as above ,diff age and address,still the same crap would rob off himself if he could .

A lot may have happened  in the intervening 5 years so I wonder what number he's up to now?   It's not the first time he's stolen from an OAP either!
















Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 15, 2014, 12:10:26 am
What's he look like?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: majormellons on August 15, 2014, 01:06:18 am
I can source a picture of him off Facebook, is it of to post that on here?..it is in the public domain?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 15, 2014, 08:00:35 am
Better from a newspaper.  FB's not totally within the public domain, As I understand it. The best option is to post a link to it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: majormellons on August 15, 2014, 09:28:53 am
As advised, Mr. Austin Bellew (https://www.facebook.com/austin.bellew.5/about)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 15, 2014, 12:11:50 pm
Well I've added him as a friend, seems a nice bloke  _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2014, 12:01:53 am
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that 'gentleman'
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 18, 2014, 04:56:22 pm
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/austin-bellew-llandudno-mugger-snatched-7632804 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/austin-bellew-llandudno-mugger-snatched-7632804)

There you go.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 23, 2014, 09:37:05 am
Police officers cannot tackle crime because they are treated as social workers, claims leading officer

Published date: 18 September 2014
Published by: Free Press Reporter


POLICE officers cannot get on with the job of tackling crime because they are being treated as “uniformed social workers”, it is claimed by a leading North Wales officer.

Constable Simon Newport, chair of the North Wales Police Federation Joint Branch Board, says that front-line officers are becoming so frustrated that they are seeking jobs in other departments.

He says it is time for the police both locally and nationally to refuse to take on work which should be the responsibility of other organisations.

Writing in the latest edition of the Federation newsletter “Your Voice” PC Newport says that whereas in the past officers used to turn up for work ready to deal with incidents such as assaults and public order he and most of his colleagues now dreaded being faced with incidents that other agencies had passed on to the police “ to clear their boxes  prior to the weekend”.

Dealing with vulnerable people, some from missing from home, concerns for safety and mental health incidents take up so much time that they are now struggling to provide a service when it comes to preventing and investigating crime.

“I am sure I am not the only one to think that when I arrive for work nowadays I feel more like a uniformed social worker than a police officer whose  primary role is to prevent crime and  disorder,” he says.

PC Newport says that while there are some excellent examples of multi-agency working and information sharing it isn’t working at uniformed response level.

“It seems that many outside agencies pass on their responsibilities to the police service to deal with , especially after normal working hours and weekends,” he writes. “To that end, I feel we are also creating our own problems as we appear to be unable to say no to any organisation or member of the public.

“Many incidents I hear being passed over the airways should never be police responsibility but once we accept the incident the buck truly stops with us should anything go wrong.”

PC Newport says the change is affecting the morale of colleagues and supervisors.

“Many feel that their role is being undermined by the constant drain on resources from non-policing matters, not to mention the seemingly endless amount of reports required to ensure that all aspects of culpability are covered,” he says.

“Police officers join the service to serve and protect their communities, not to wrap them up in cottonwool.”

It is little wonder, he comments, that many officers are seeking other jobs within the Force away from frontline policing.

With so little time left to deal with crime officers are becoming increasingly frustrated that criminals are getting away with their offences.

"Targeting criminals was once bread-and-butter for the response officer,” says PC Newport. “It is now a luxury as there are fewer officers available and their time is taken up with social or welfare incidents.

“I can only see things getting worse as further budget cuts are introduced in the next financial year.

“As an organisation, both locally and nationally, we need to have the courage to stand up to other organisations that have all too easily passed their dirty washing on to us mainly because we are a 24/7 organisation, and say ‘No’.”

http://northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/138354/police-officers-cannot-tackle-crime-because-they-are-treated-as-social-workers-claims-leading-officer.aspx (http://northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/138354/police-officers-cannot-tackle-crime-because-they-are-treated-as-social-workers-claims-leading-officer.aspx)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 23, 2014, 10:29:22 am
Quote
“I am sure I am not the only one to think that when I arrive for work nowadays I feel more like a uniformed social worker than a police officer whose  primary role is to prevent crime and  disorder,”

And here I was thinking the primary responsibility of the Police is to enforce the law and safeguard the citizen.

"We also investigate missing people, whilst its not a crime to be missing, the police deal with this because there could potentially be a crime involved i.e. abduction, rape etc." (from UK Police blog)

Quote
“As an organisation, both locally and nationally, we need to have the courage to stand up to other organisations that have all too easily passed their dirty washing on to us mainly because we are a 24/7 organisation, and say ‘No’.”

Ignoring his small-minded jibes at 'other organisations' what does he suggest should be done when a child goes missing at 1900 on a Friday? The Police are adequately remunerated for their role and there's a long waiting list to get into North Wales Police, so perhaps he should seek less demanding employment?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on September 23, 2014, 02:15:11 pm
Quote
"Targeting criminals was once bread-and-butter for the response officer,” says PC Newport. “It is now a luxury  as there are fewer officers available and their time is taken up with social or welfare incidents.

From what I see in the press and TV they are already struggling to spend time "targeting criminals" ....the increasing amount of paperwork etc. ie  a simple arrest for drunk and disorderly can mean hours in the station.
“Many feel that their role is being undermined by the constant drain on resources from non-policing matters, not to mention the seemingly endless amount of reports required to ensure that all aspects of culpability are covered,”

And if as serious as he says, the "social Incidents" will be an additional drain on there time, spent on the streets.

Quote
"Ignoring his small-minded jibes at 'other organisations' what does he suggest should be done when a child goes missing at 1900 on a Friday? The Police are adequately remunerated for their role and there's a long waiting list to get into North Wales Police, so perhaps he should seek less demanding employment?"

I really do not think the above, would be considered a  "social or welfare" incident .


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 23, 2014, 04:44:13 pm
I don't believe that serving Police officers make these statements lightly.

Ian whilst you might be of the opinion that Police officers are adequately remunerated, it is less true than it used to be.
Wages, overtime payments etc, and Pensions have been severely truncated...  therefore they feel less values than they did.

This, coupled with the endless admin, and the soul-destroying inability to secure simple convictions for arrests that they DO make, leads to morale being eroded.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on September 23, 2014, 04:58:00 pm
Again  :o I have sympathy with Fester's argument. I would never have believed that a Tory government would have attacked the Police and Armed Forces in the way they have.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 23, 2014, 05:34:51 pm
Quote
Wages, overtime payments etc, and Pensions have been severely truncated...  therefore they feel less valued than they did.

I agree, but I still believe that the Police as a career is relatively well paid. They start on almost £26k for a 37 hour week, which rises to £41k for a sergeant after several years' service. It's true they work unsocial hours, but they benefit from fully paid sick leave, overtime - which is paid at a higher rate - and uniform, equipment and a lot of their living accommodation is provided.  Now, I accept they sometimes work in dangerous conditions, but if we compare their salaries with that of a British Soldier, whose uniform, accommodation on duty and equipment are similarly provided, it's quite revealing: starting salary for a 'squaddie' is £18k, compared with £26k for a police constable. Many Police forces provide food, yet a soldier has to contribute £33.00 per week for food. Like the Police, they enjoy inclusive food and accommodation when on deployment and army pensions are pretty good.

But where the comparison with this particular constable's statements and the army becomes interesting is that soldiers on deployment in Afghanistan have to accept all roles, as well as doing their primary duty, which is to eliminate the enemy while complying with all statuary rules of engagement. They all, however, have to engage with the indigenous population in the 'hearts and minds' mission decreed by their senior officers. In effect, that involves being pleasant to the Afghans and helping them out whenever possible. In other words, doing exactly what the constable believes the Police have no time for.

Don't get me wrong: both occupations are potentially dangerous, although I suspect being in the army comes out top, but what I am saying is this constable is claiming that other social agencies are simply dropping their 'dirty linen' on the Police at weekends because they want a quiet weekend themselves, yet all the social work agencies - the subjects of swingeing cuts from the coalition exactly like the Police - operate an active out of hours service to deal with precisely the alleged issues. 

I'll also declare an interest in that several members of my extended family are Met Officers of varying seniority, and we also have a colonel in the family.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on September 23, 2014, 06:22:57 pm
We seem to have latched onto salaries, and comparing the army and the police, I think that the question is, are they  (uniformed PC's) spending to much time on non criminal matters, it appeared to me, that was the point of the statement, and I believe they are.
On the army/police issue, soldiers can drop the "hearts and minds" mission if something more serious crops up, a PC could be stuck dealing with a "social" issue, I understand these are important, but is that what they are there for.          In these times of cuts and restructuring, I think they expect to much, and the statement needed to be made.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2014, 08:35:22 am
Quote
a PC could be stuck dealing with a "social" issue, I understand these are important, but is that what they are there for.

One detail is that the precise definition of 'social issue' has not been stated.  The reason I was concerned at the original post was the fairly strong sentiment that implied two things: the Police only exist to fight crime and, secondly, that the responsibility for everything other than crime should be borne by other agencies. The implication that 'other agencies' (interestingly, also not clearly defined) simply drop everything at 4pm on Friday evenings and pass it all over to the Police is, I suspect, misleading at best.

In our society crime, neediness and vulnerability go hand-in-hand, and often what is seen as crime can be something quite different. If the police refuse anything they deem 'not criminal' where does that leave the vulnerable, I wonder.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on September 24, 2014, 08:53:35 am
In the Police Manual that I had in the Met the very first sentence was:

"The primary object of an efficient Police is the Prevention of Crime, and next, that of Detection and Punishment of Offenders when Crime is committed."

To my mind this sums it all up very nicely.   ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2014, 09:04:53 am
Peelian Principles

1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.
3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.
7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2014, 09:08:52 am
Theresa May:

"Home Secretary Theresa May has said that the mission of the police is to cut crime, no more and no less. In a speech to the Police Superintendents’ Association she expanded on this theme, saying:
“Cutting crime isn’t just about the number of arrests which are made, the number
of incidents responded to or the number of successful prosecutions. In fact, I am quite clear that it does mean a range of activity [...]

“Let me be clear. Some domestic disputes are crime and all incidents of domestic violence are crime. Early intervention is crime fighting. Preventing crime is part of cutting crime.

“I think for too long, too many people have seen crime as a strict Home Office definition of recorded crime. When I talk about fighting crime, I do not mean a narrow category of activity.

Cutting crime means catching criminals but it also means preventing crime. And preventing crime means intervening early in domestic disputes to prevent escalation, it means supporting the vulnerable person who could become a victim of crime, it means tackling anti- social behaviour, it means providing effective public order policing.”"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on September 24, 2014, 11:29:57 am
Quote
a PC could be stuck dealing with a "social" issue, I understand these are important, but is that what they are there for.

One detail is that the precise definition of 'social issue' has not been stated.  The reason I was concerned at the original post was the fairly strong sentiment that implied two things: the Police only exist to fight crime and, secondly, that the responsibility for everything other than crime should be borne by other agencies. The implication that 'other agencies' (interestingly, also not clearly defined) simply drop everything at 4pm on Friday evenings and pass it all over to the Police is, I suspect, misleading at best.

In our society crime, neediness and vulnerability go hand-in-hand, and often what is seen as crime can be something quite different. If the police refuse anything they deem 'not criminal' where does that leave the vulnerable, I wonder.
I agree with what you said above, and we do need more detail, but if they thought it important enough to make that statement, then it should be looked into.

"Many incidents I hear being passed over the airways should never be police responsibility but once we accept the incident the buck truly stops with us "

I think they feel blackmailed in some situations.
.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2014, 06:03:37 pm
Quote
if they thought it important enough to make that statement, then it should be looked into.

But it's not the Police per se, but the Police's Union who are making that statement. And they don't have a good track record:

Quote

Personal attacks by the Police Federation on political figures such as Andrew Mitchell and Theresa May are condemned in an independent review which called for sweeping change at all levels of the troubled organisation.

The review into the federation, which represents more than 120,000 constables, sergeants and inspectors, was set up following the "plebgate" affair which culminated in Mr Mitchell's resignation from the Government.

The report painted a damning picture of "petty politics and squabbling" within the organisation, divisions between its headquarters and regions and between the ranks it represents. It also raised questions over the £64.5m the federation holds in reserves and said the cash should be used to cut members' subscriptions.
 
 

The review was scathing about some federation representatives' tactics in defending officers' terms and conditions which have seen it target Home Secretaries including Ms May and Tom Winsor, the Chief Inspector of Constabulary.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on September 24, 2014, 06:30:24 pm
Quote
But it's not the Police per se, but the Police's Union who are making that statement. And they don't have a good track record:
I see where you are coming from, but I still think the "street bobby" is under ever increasing pressures.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 26, 2014, 09:19:10 pm
Boat seized in Pwllheli after £100m cocaine haul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29382333 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29382333)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 02, 2014, 10:43:32 am
Quote
a PC could be stuck dealing with a "social" issue, I understand these are important, but is that what they are there for.

One detail is that the precise definition of 'social issue' has not been stated.  The reason I was concerned at the original post was the fairly strong sentiment that implied two things: the Police only exist to fight crime and, secondly, that the responsibility for everything other than crime should be borne by other agencies. The implication that 'other agencies' (interestingly, also not clearly defined) simply drop everything at 4pm on Friday evenings and pass it all over to the Police is, I suspect, misleading at best.

In our society crime, neediness and vulnerability go hand-in-hand, and often what is seen as crime can be something quite different. If the police refuse anything they deem 'not criminal' where does that leave the vulnerable, I wonder.
I Watched "999 What's your emergency" last night, which made me think about, what we had been discussing above.

Based in a 999 call centre.... I noticed a lot of calls came in, that initially seemed time wasters, asking for non related emergency help, at first the operator, seemed annoyed, but carried on talking to them, I realized they were looking for signs of "self harm",  and the number of calls from people already known to them, that they knew, only  wanted  to talk to somebody....in the majority, the police were sent.
I said before, that the police felt as if they "were being blackmailed" over social issues, and I got the same impression, that the emergency operators felt the same.

"In our society crime, neediness and vulnerability go hand-in-hand, and often what is seen as crime can be something quite different. If the police refuse anything they deem 'not criminal' where does that leave the vulnerable, I wonder."

I wonder.....Do we need a fourth emergency service?....££££££


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on October 05, 2014, 09:41:26 pm
Whilst most right-thinking people believe that racism is ignorant, it made me laugh just HOW ignorant those who daubed this graffiti in Wrexham must be!   (I lifted the picture from a BBC News article)


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Dwyforite on October 06, 2014, 01:35:19 am
Mormons?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 06, 2014, 09:47:25 am
Took me awhile.... _))* _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2014, 07:47:38 am
The news that internet trolls face a doubling of their sentences (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29678989) is welcome to many. It's just a pity the government - as usual - waited until some famous (and probably rich) people suffered from online abuse before acting. 

Trolls have been around since the early 1990s and the days of IRC, significantly before forum  software such as this existed. Oscar's blog is a good example of how people have suffered, yet the 'authorities' did nothing until an MP was attacked and took action. Much of the damage to people on Oscar's blog was caused by the contributors, rather than Oscar himself, but he will likely be held accountable, as the owner of a blog or forum is deemed to be the publisher, and thus liable.

Although Oscar's blog is now offline, it was hosted by Google and they don't delete blogs but simply store them, precisely because of issues that might arise for up to seven years afterwards. Every entry and IP address is stored, so action can be taken against people for years after something is closed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 19, 2014, 09:52:45 am
Quote
The news that internet trolls face a doubling of their sentences is welcome to many. It's just a pity the government - as usual - waited until some famous (and probably rich) people suffered from online abuse before acting.

Do you think they will act?..... or just a few test cases for the "famous" , make a few examples....how far do you think they will take the Oscar case, or is that going to fade away?.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2014, 10:03:48 am
I suspect once those who feel they've been 'wronged' smell compensation, at the very least, that will act as a powerful incentive.  I also suspect that getting revenge might prove almost as powerful. It's also now well established that it's the individual posters that the Police might come after - not simply the host.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 19, 2014, 10:11:39 am

Although Oscar's blog is now offline, it was hosted by Google and they don't delete blogs but simply store them, precisely because of issues that might arise for up to seven years afterwards. Every entry and IP address is stored, so action can be taken against people for years after something is closed.

The same can also be said for Twitter accounts from such sites as tweettunnel.info where past tweets can be seen and also specialist sites such as one in Holland that, for example, stores all tweets that have been deleted by certain groups of individuals, such as MP's.
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 19, 2014, 10:21:39 am
Not sure if this is correct, but just read "if a post comes from abroad, they cannot follow up on it" France for example is not geared up for it?. if so this leaves a large loophole in the system.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2014, 10:32:42 am
Quote
Not sure if this is correct, but just read "if a post comes from abroad, they cannot follow up on it" France for example is not geared up for it?. if so this leaves a large loophole in the system.

It depends where, but in Europe they certainly can, since what matters is the source. It's common for some trolls to use TOR or another VPN to mask their origins, but the NSA has deliberately exposed flaws in TOR which make it simple to reveal the originators. The other factor is that the originating ISP is usually in the UK, so they can be found. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 19, 2014, 10:55:43 am
Quote
Not sure if this is correct, but just read "if a post comes from abroad, they cannot follow up on it" France for example is not geared up for it?. if so this leaves a large loophole in the system.

This is the quote I was referring to....

"Just one small question: how on earth is this ever going to be enforceable in a medium which completely ignores national boundaries? I now live permanently in France; so if I were minded to do so I could presumably utter the foulest abuse and the most blood-curdling threats against anyone I pleased in complete safety, because I can't see that the French courts would exactly fall over themselves to enforce a UK magistrates' court conviction in absentia under the Malicious Communications Act. In fact I'm not even sure that there'd be a mechanism for doing it."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2014, 11:09:52 am
Quote
I can't see that the French courts would exactly fall over themselves to enforce a UK magistrates' court conviction in absentia under the Malicious Communications Act.

Because the UK courts could use other legislation.  If it was considered ABH, for instance, extradition is a possibility. This problem is Europe-wide, so it won't be long before the EC starts formulating law about it as well. And there'll always be someone who claims to live in Bulgaria, or on the moon, and say it can't affect them, but the fact is that the vast majority of trolls in the UK live in the UK.  Interestingly, the only really safe place would be sailing an ocean. Then you'd only have pirates to worry about.   ???
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 19, 2014, 11:15:54 am
 $good$ Ian,  Think I'll just stick to the 3T's forum, I know my limitations. :)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2014, 09:07:14 am
This is an interesting recent case:

"A council which spent over £200,000 trying and failing to identify a blogger making allegedly libellous remarks has abandoned its legal action."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-28143035 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-28143035)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 20, 2014, 12:09:26 pm
The real point is that the Council DID get the infomation.  Why it cost them so much I don't know, probably employed Solicitors.

I managed to get the information within one week and the only cost was my time, a few scans and a few emails to Twitter.
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 20, 2014, 01:42:05 pm
The real point is that the Council DID get the infomation.  Why it cost them so much I don't know, probably employed Solicitors.

I managed to get the information within one week and the only cost was my time, a few scans and a few emails to Twitter.
 ZXZ
That's an amazing achievement, Yorkie. This Council had to use specialist solicitors to get a US Court to issue a Subpoena against Twitter to force them to release this information, but you did it all yourself within one week.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 04:26:41 pm
Who, what, why: What laws currently cover trolling?

Internet trolls could face two years in jail under new laws. But how does the British legal system currently police online abuse.
In England and Wales, the Malicious Communications Act 1988 covers comments that cause "distress or anxiety". Similar legislation applies in Northern Ireland. Sean Duffy was jailed under the act for 18 weeks in 2011 after he made "grossly offensive" comments about children who had killed themselves. Then there's the Communications Act 2003 which applies across the United Kingdom. It covers threats but often overlaps with the 1988 act, McAleenan says. It was used to jail a man who posted offensive messages aimed at the families of Jade Goody and John Paul Massey, a Liverpool boy mauled to death by a dog.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-29686865 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-29686865)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 20, 2014, 05:06:35 pm
The real point is that the Council DID get the infomation.  Why it cost them so much I don't know, probably employed Solicitors.

I managed to get the information within one week and the only cost was my time, a few scans and a few emails to Twitter.
 ZXZ
That's an amazing achievement, Yorkie. This Council had to use specialist solicitors to get a US Court to issue a Subpoena against Twitter to force them to release this information, but you did it all yourself within one week.  $good$

Actually my Son started me on the right track, but otherwise it was very simple.  As you seem to disbelieve, I will be delighted to show you why it was done and how it was done.  One does not have to be a computer buff, whizzkid, Internet Guru or IT Expert, just have to use the facilities that Twitter supply free of charge and is available to all its users.

The Council's Solicitors obviously didn't know about the simple approach and thus ran up large costs.

To add to what I have said, the hardest part was filling in the Twitter form!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 21, 2014, 09:21:51 am
Can Twitter give me another user’s information?
Per our Privacy Policy, Twitter does not release user information except as required by valid legal process.

https://support.twitter.com/articles/20169998-reporting-abusive-behavior
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on October 21, 2014, 05:24:01 pm
Well there we are then!  Either in my case they made an exception or have changed their guidelines.  The one document I had to fax that fulfilled their legal requirement was a copy of my Passport to prove my name and photograph.

It is lovely to be believed, which they obviously did!

 $bounce$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on October 21, 2014, 06:40:46 pm
Either in my case they made an exception or have changed their guidelines.
That must have been it. ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on November 27, 2014, 09:32:59 am
John Allen guilty of 26 charges of child abuse
Nov 26, 2014 13:02 By Elwyn Roberts


John Allen, the former head of children's homes in North Wales, has today been convicted of 26 of the 40 charges of historic sex abuse against him.

The jury at Mold Crown Court, returned to court this afternoon almost exactly a week since they retired and returned 26 guilty verdicts and two not guilty verdicts.

The jury has now been asked to return tomorrow morning to continue their deliberations on 12 remaining charges.

Allen was convicted of 21 charges of indecent assault, one charge of indecency with a child, two counts of an illegal sex act and two charges of attempting the illegal act.

He was cleared of two charges of an illegal sex act.

The judge Mr Justice Openshaw asked the jury if they wanted to continue their deliberations today or start again in the morning, and agreed that the case should be adjourned until tomorrow.

Defendant John Ernest Allen,73, had during the seven week trial faced 40 charges of indecent assault and other sexual offences upon 20 children, 19 boys and one girl, between 1968 and 1991.

The defendant, of Foxglove Avenue in Needham Market near Ipswich, Suffolk, denied all charges.

He was the owner and manager of the Bryn Alyn Community, a lucrative company that ran several children’s homes at the time when h e was aged in his 30s and 40s.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/john-allen-guilty-26-charges-8178541 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/john-allen-guilty-26-charges-8178541)
Title: Proceeds of Crime.
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 16, 2015, 07:24:09 pm
An appeal by a Conwy husband and wife to cut the amount of money they must pay back and hang on to their marital home was rejected by a judge.
 A married couple who used fraud to fuel their successful careers as property developers have failed to stop the state seizing £448,000 worth of their assets - including their home.

Michael John Creamer and Anita Creamer, both 50, made a fortune by buying and doing up a string of houses over a 12-year period.

But they lied to mortgage companies about their income and circumstances in order to obtain the loans on which their business was built.

The couple, of Penmaen Road in Conwy, were both convicted of conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud at Mold Crown Court in December 2011.

Mrs Creamer was sentenced to two years in jail and Mr Creamer, who was also convicted of offences relating to credit card fraud, was given four years and two months.

The pair were also hit with confiscation orders, designed to allow the state to claw back the benefit they gained from their illegal activity.

Mr Creamer was ordered to pay  £219,000 and Mrs Creamer £229,000 - a total of more than £440,000.

Today they asked Lord Justice Davis, Mr Justice Simon and Mr Justice Holgate, sitting at London's Criminal Appeal Court, to reduce the amount they must pay back.

The court heard that the assets the confiscation order was based on were the couple's matrimonial home and another property that remained from their portfolio.

The couple argued today that the matrimonial home was only in one of their names and ought not to have been counted as an asset available to both of them.

It was also said that the other house ought not to have been counted as their property, as it was held in trust for their children.

But Lord Justice Davis refused their application saying they were two years out of time to appeal the orders, and in any case had consented to them being made.

The couple's lawyers claimed that ignorance of the law had caused them to consent to the orders and that fresh evidence was now available.

Rejecting their appeals, however, Lord Justice Davis said there was evidence that the "purported trust" in relation to one of the houses "was a sham or became a sham".

He also said that the pair had had a chance to put forward any evidence at an earlier stage and would not be allowed to do so now.

"Enough is enough here," the appeal judge concluded.
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/michael-anita-creamer-couple-who-8454041 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/michael-anita-creamer-couple-who-8454041)
Title: Re: Proceeds of Crime.
Post by: majormellons on January 16, 2015, 08:53:47 pm
Couldn't be more pleased fro them.

Creamer ripped a company I was working for, off for a couple of hundred quid, about 15 years ago.
We had sign written a van for him and we were waiting for him to come and pick it up. He called about 6pm and said he was delayed on a job and couldn't get to us but needed the van at 5 in the morning to get to another job, would we leave the keys under the seat and he would pick it up later, as it would save us hanging around and he would post the money through our postbox.

Surprise, surprise, no money was posted.

After many ignored phone calls, he called in and said one of the letters had 'fallen off' after jet washing the van, so he was refusing to pay. On inspection, we could see where one missing letter had been scratched off the van, as he had managed to scratch the paint off as well.

We fixed the letter that had 'washed off' and he said he would drop cash off later, as he was now happy with the job.

Surprise, surprise, we never saw him again.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 17, 2015, 09:57:17 am
It seems the amount to pay back is "only" £448k and not £930k.
The £930k was the amount the court decided they had benefited out of the fraud.
That's alright then!
This is the original report from their trial,
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/seven-jailed-major-mortgage-fraud-2738666 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/seven-jailed-major-mortgage-fraud-2738666)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 17, 2015, 10:59:16 am
On this day in 1899 Al Capone was born.
 Z**
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 17, 2015, 11:10:31 am
On this day in 1899 Al Capone was born.
 Z**

So was Neville Shute the Author.   ZXZ

Muhammad Ali was also 17 Jan,  but in 1942   :D
Title: Re: Proceeds of Crime.
Post by: Yorkie on January 17, 2015, 12:20:30 pm
Couldn't be more pleased fro them.

Creamer ripped a company I was working for, off for a couple of hundred quid, about 15 years ago.
We had sign written a van for him and we were waiting for him to come and pick it up. He called about 6pm and said he was delayed on a job and couldn't get to us but needed the van at 5 in the morning to get to another job, would we leave the keys under the seat and he would pick it up later, as it would save us hanging around and he would post the money through our postbox.

Surprise, surprise, no money was posted.

After many ignored phone calls, he called in and said one of the letters had 'fallen off' after jet washing the van, so he was refusing to pay. On inspection, we could see where one missing letter had been scratched off the van, as he had managed to scratch the paint off as well.

We fixed the letter that had 'washed off' and he said he would drop cash off later, as he was now happy with the job.

Surprise, surprise, we never saw him again.

Surely you could have made a Claim through the Small Claims Track of the County Court?  Bit late bringing the matter up now!     WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 17, 2015, 04:58:06 pm
"So was Neville Shute the Author.   ZXZ

Muhammad Ali was also 17 Jan,  but in 1942   :D"


This thread is the crime and criminal thread Yorkie.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 17, 2015, 05:06:40 pm
As for taking  Mr Creamer to court it would be a brave person for the sake of a hundred pounds or so, I say that regrettably.
 
" A BUILDER must serve 14 months in jail after being found guilty of intimidating
 a chef into withdrawing a statement to police about an alleged assault. Michael John Creamer, 46, of Conwy, had denied trying to get Gary John Jones, then chef at the Maelgwyn pub in Llandudno Junction, to withdraw a complaint that the defendant's associate had punched him. "

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 17, 2015, 07:39:43 pm

This thread is the crime and criminal thread Yorkie.

Over the years almost every thread on this Forum has suffered from deviation, repetition and hesitation.  May I offer my 'umble apologies to all who have found my comment upsetting and especially if it has spoilt their experience in reading this particular thread.  I shall make an effort to obey the etiquette of the Forum in future.
 $thanx$  For bringing the matter to my attention!   _))*

P.s.  Remind me please, what has Al Capone's Birth Anniversary got to do with the subject under discussion? 
 WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 17, 2015, 09:10:58 pm
As for taking  Mr Creamer to court it would be a brave person for the sake of a hundred pounds or so, I say that regrettably.
 

If everyone took that attitude the Criminals would have a field day!   *punch*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 19, 2015, 09:40:10 am
"If everyone took that attitude the Criminals would have a field day!"

Yorkie, believe me when I say you would not want him or more to the point one of his associates calling around to explain things, I personally know of a person who this happened to and it's not a pleasant tale to recount and yes before you ask the police were involved.
As you can see this is not hearsay but the  man has a conviction and jail term for intimidating a witness.
 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 19, 2015, 11:13:32 am
"If everyone took that attitude the Criminals would have a field day!"

Yorkie, believe me when I say you would not want him or more to the point one of his associates calling around to explain things, I personally know of a person who this happened to and it's not a pleasant tale to recount and yes before you ask the police were involved.
As you can see this is not hearsay but the  man has a conviction and jail term for intimidating a witness.

Of course you are totally unaware that I do know the person in question, have met him on a number of occasions and have not found anything about him to dislike.   The World is made up of many different individuals and crime is committed by everyone from Tinpot Dictators, Parliamentarians, Councillors, Doctors, Schoolteachers, and every other branch of Society.  Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
Mr C has paid, and is still paying, his debt to Society and is unlikely to repeat past misdemeanours. Allow him to make a fresh start without constantly regurgitating the past.

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 19, 2015, 11:29:47 am
That's very admirable Yorkie, let's hope that your belief in him is vindicated.   Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 19, 2015, 11:40:40 am
Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on January 19, 2015, 12:49:11 pm
"If everyone took that attitude the Criminals would have a field day!"

Yorkie, believe me when I say you would not want him or more to the point one of his associates calling around to explain things, I personally know of a person who this happened to and it's not a pleasant tale to recount and yes before you ask the police were involved.
As you can see this is not hearsay but the  man has a conviction and jail term for intimidating a witness.

Of course you are totally unaware that I do know the person in question, have met him on a number of occasions and have not found anything about him to dislike.   The World is made up of many different individuals and crime is committed by everyone from Tinpot Dictators, Parliamentarians, Councillors, Doctors, Schoolteachers, and every other branch of Society.  Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
Mr C has paid, and is still paying, his debt to Society and is unlikely to repeat past misdemeanours. Allow him to make a fresh start without constantly regurgitating the past.




That's odd. On September 10th 2014 you claimed to not personally know Mr Creamer but now say that you do in fact know him and have met him on a number of occasions?
You must have been very busy with him over the last four months!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 19, 2015, 04:58:10 pm
SDQ, exactly, you have hit the nail on the head!  When have you or DaveR met him?  Or are you just repeating what you have heard or read in the sensationalist Media?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 19, 2015, 05:02:23 pm
Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.

The "Grace of God" is an expression often used in British parlance to indicate that circumstances could have been different and led to a similar situation arising. 
 WWW
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 19, 2015, 05:06:07 pm
Are you saying he did not intimidate a witness  and the others in the fraud were innocent and the eight pleaded guilty in error?



"Also jailed were footballer Robert Williams, 32, of Lon Padog, Conwy, who until yesterday played for Llangefni Town FC.
He was locked up for 22 months and his brother David Williams, 30, of First Avenue, Rhos on Sea, got 15 months.

There were 11 defendants in total, all involved to a greater or lesser extent, but only seven received custodial sentences.
Now they all face financial ruin because a specialist financial investigation under The Proceeds of Crime now takes place to strip them of their ill-gotten assets.

They covered 24 fraudulent application in respect of 11 different properties in the Conwy area. Judge Rogers said the loss to the building societies was £190,000."
"The other eight people all pleaded guilty. They included Patrick and Jean Kirkwood of Acorn Services, who Jones had embroiled to provide false payslips and other false documents."
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on January 19, 2015, 05:08:21 pm
Quote
That's odd. On September 10th 2014 you claimed to not personally know Mr Creamer but now say that you do in fact know him and have met him on a number of occasions?
You must have been very busy with him over the last four months!

Quote from Yorkie on Jan 19th 2015
Quote
SDQ, exactly, you have hit the nail on the head!  When have you or DaveR met him?  Or are you just repeating what you have heard or read in the sensationalist Media?


I think SDQ was referring to this post:

Quote from Yorkie on Sep 10th 2014

Quote
As I do not personally know Mr Creamer, I do not know if he is the one or not and am only able quote from the information I have available.   Are you saying that it IS the same Mr Creamer?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 19, 2015, 05:14:42 pm
Sorry Mr Admin, I thought Yorkie was trying to say that Mr Creamer was wrongly convicted of the crimes.
I must admit I have never moved in the sort of circles that would have ever acquainted me with Creamer of his associates, I must have led a very hum drum existence, on the plus side I have a quiet life.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on January 19, 2015, 05:21:33 pm
Nothing to apologise for, Mr T;  I was simply attempting to clarify things for SDQ.

Yorkie - 10th Sep 2014
Quote
As I do not personally know Mr Creamer, I do not know if he is the one or not and am only able quote from the information I have available.   Are you saying that it IS the same Mr Creamer?

Yorkie 19th Jan 2015
Quote
you are totally unaware that I do know the person in question, have met him on a number of occasions

SDQ 19th Jan 2015
Quote
That's odd. On September 10th 2014 you claimed to not personally know Mr Creamer but now say that you do in fact know him and have met him on a number of occasions?
You must have been very busy with him over the last four months!
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 19, 2015, 05:52:40 pm
There are two Mr Creamers. Father and Son.  Some reports have confused the two.  I know the Father. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on January 19, 2015, 06:10:40 pm
The one mentioned here:


http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1961.msg76601.html#msg76601 (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1961.msg76601.html#msg76601)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 19, 2015, 06:34:55 pm
"A MAN who played a “significant role” in a plot to flood North Wales with illegal drugs has been locked up for seven years.
Michael John Creamer was the last of 24 men and a woman to be sentenced for their part in a conspiracy which ran from November 2010 to May last year."


The son of the same name, my goodness some mother's do have them.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Yorkie on January 19, 2015, 08:57:27 pm
Hence the confusion Mr T.   Dad is known as Mick, Son as Mike or Michael.  Sorry, it has been a trying time for all of us! 
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: MikeDyson on January 20, 2015, 01:43:09 pm
Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.
How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 20, 2015, 01:53:58 pm
Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.
How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.
The Daily Post article says they were convicted of 'conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud'. Is that untrue?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: MikeDyson on January 20, 2015, 03:32:35 pm
Is it our right to condemn them all, where but for the Grace of God we could have followed a similar road?
What has the 'grace of God' got to do with defrauding mortgage companies? The person in question chose to be a criminal, simple as that. He wasn't stealing food to feed his family, the offences were committed purely out of sheer greed.
How do you know mortgage companies were defrauded? Not one single morgage company, financial institution, buissiness or any individual made a complaint against Mr or Mrs Creamer, this was a case of no complainie or victim, no loses were made, except to the tax payer to the tune of about five million pounds in bringing this sham to court.
Sitting in glass houses and spouting untruths is all well and good, I sugest your put your arguments straight to Mr and Mrs Creamer, they are two of the most approachable people I've had the good fortune to meet.
The Daily Post article says they were convicted of 'conspiracy to commit mortgage fraud'. Is that untrue?
The Daily Post also stated they owed nearly one million pounds to proceeds of crime when in fact the figure ordered was less than half that amount, check last Saturdays Post to see the apologie to Mr and Mrs Creamer, I understand that Mr Creamer has instructed his legal team accordingly.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 20, 2015, 04:12:34 pm
What about the others in the same trial, they pleaded guilty, were they innocent?
I suppose the intimidation of a witness was a misunderstanding Mike and should never have got to court?

What about Steven Stanley Dickens who went to jail for the same offences?
The law is the law, we might not like some of the laws but there we are, trial by jury and found guilty by jury, case closed.
If you can't do the time don't do the crime.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: MikeDyson on January 20, 2015, 06:17:13 pm
What about the others in the same trial, they pleaded guilty, were they innocent?
I suppose the intimidation of a witness was a misunderstanding Mike and should never have got to court?

What about Steven Stanley Dickens who went to jail for the same offences?
The law is the law, we might not like some of the laws but there we are, trial by jury and found guilty by jury, case closed.
If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Have you ever met Mr Creamer? Or do you just judge from the safety of your computer? Myself personally I judge a person by what I see and hear face to face. As far as the law is concerned don't be so naive, you obviously have lived a very insular existence.
As for Dickens in his case there were both victims and loss, in Mr and Mrs Creamers there were not.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2015, 03:56:24 pm
Are you saying with the benefit of meeting Mr Cramer that he didn't commit any mortgage fraud and there has been a grave miscarriage of justice?     
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on January 22, 2015, 08:48:03 am
A conviction for conspiracy to commit an offence means that it was proven than there was more than just a preparatory action towards the commission of the offence. The suggestion that somehow because there was no 'complainant' mitigates the offence is ludicrous; For example, does Conspiracy to Commit Armed Robbery lessen the offence? No, it's by good fortune, Police work and the justice system that some bank clerk did not have a firearm pointed at them. What about Conspiracy to Commit Acts of Terrorism? Is it acceptable if no-one is killed? In this case, the financial loss of mortgage companies would inevitably be passed on to the customer, you and me. Shoplifting is a classic, as is insurance fraud, the costs of which are all passed on to the consumer - you and me. I for one am grateful that the actual commission of crimes is prevented.

And don't forget the cost to society of the court case, several hundred thousands of pounds, and the cost of keeping these people in prison, all these costs are borne by us, the tax payer.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on January 22, 2015, 08:49:32 am
A conviction for conspiracy to commit an offence means that it was proven than there was more than just a preparatory action towards the commission of the offence. The suggestion that somehow because there was no 'complainant' mitigates the offence is ludicrous; For example, does Conspiracy to Commit Armed Robbery lessen the offence? No, it's by good fortune, Police work and the justice system that some bank clerk did not have a firearm pointed at them. What about Conspiracy to Commit Acts of Terrorism? Is it acceptable if no-one is killed? In this case, the financial loss of mortgage companies would inevitably be passed on to the customer, you and me. Shoplifting is a classic, as is insurance fraud, the costs of which are all passed on to the consumer - you and me. I for one am grateful that the actual commission of crimes is prevented.

And don't forget the cost to society of the court case, several hundred thousands of pounds, and the cost of keeping these people in prison, all these costs are borne by us, the tax payer.
Wise words, Bosun.  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Mr Tunnock on January 24, 2015, 04:57:33 pm
I see that such was the threat of legal action, the North Weekly News have republished the story of Michael Creamer and his wife Anita loosing their right to appeal on their proceeds of crime order resulting from their fraud conviction.
No way to treat an innocent couple.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 25, 2015, 01:09:57 pm
Quote

Have you ever met Mr Creamer? Or do you just judge from the safety of your computer? Myself personally I judge a person by what I see and hear face to face. As far as the law is concerned don't be so naive, you obviously have lived a very insular existence.
As for Dickens in his case there were both victims and loss, in Mr and Mrs Creamers there were not.

Loyalty to a friend is an admirable quality but it shouldn't be misguided and clouded by naivety.  The facts are the facts and the Court has made a decision based on them.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on June 13, 2015, 10:31:28 am
TOWYN: Hearing that there is a big police presence in Towyn - we're trying to find out what's going on. More when we get it.
ROBBERY: North Wales Police have confirmed that they were called to a robbery at Corbett Bookmakers in Towyn yesterday evening at 7.20pm. No further information has been released at this stage.refDP
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 09, 2015, 06:50:14 pm
Copied from a posting by Higo:

"Yesterday a friend of mine was driving up Kings Road and stopped at the T junction by St Andrews Church as a car was approaching from Lansdowne Road and going up  Kings Drive.
He let the car pass and then followed it up the hill.    Without any warning the car in front stopped immediately, there were no brake lights on the other vehicle. It was the squeal of brakes from the other car that alerted my friend and he did an emergency stop and veered to the right and thus avoided an impact.
The other car with two male occupants then raced off at speed, so fast that my friend couldn't see the registration number.
He realised that this was a scam and reported the matter to the Police.
If anyone on here is involved in a similar scam with this silver grey Citroen hatch back  please report the matter to the Polic"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 29, 2015, 09:23:28 pm
Well, the Govt have decided to ban smoking in prisons from 2016.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34395034 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34395034)

That's fine, BUT..... I'm sure heroin and alcohol are also banned in prisons, but they haven't had much success in making that stick have they?
 ££$ ££$ ££$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on November 26, 2015, 09:10:08 pm
So, it seems that since the Car Tax paper disc was abolished, the number of un-taxed cars on our roads has DOUBLED!
That's in just one year.
A move that was supposed to save a mere £10m a year in admin, is now costing £80m in lost revenue.
Another brilliantly managed change eh?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34933962 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34933962)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 26, 2015, 10:31:57 pm
I thought that something like that would happen and it just shows how inept the Government is.   It would seem that there was no contingency plan to deal with untaxed drivers.
The DVLC has records of all the vehicles on the road and also the information about whether the car has road tax, MOT or insurance and it's all on computer there and the Police can check all these details.    Likewise members of the public can put "car tax checker" into Google and check whether the car is taxed or has a valid MOT
If you do check it for yourself you will see the genuine cases in Green but those that are not taxed will appear in red.

The names and addresses of the owners of untaxed vehicles are  therefore already flagged up so all that is required is for proceedings to be instituted against these owners after a warning letter is issued to the registered keeper.   County Court proceedings can then be commenced after the expiry date on the warning letter.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 27, 2015, 02:21:43 pm
Seemed obvious to me that would be the case!  &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 27, 2015, 03:59:08 pm
Seemed obvious to me that would be the case!  &shake&

Yes, it was just false economy.    It doesn't surprise me in the least, a lot of the what has been happening in recent years doesn't seem to have been thought through, with no contingency plans for if (when) it goes wrong
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on March 03, 2016, 08:08:49 am
I suspect this is long overdue:

"Internet "trolls" could face criminal charges for creating fake profiles, according to guidance being considered for prosecutors in England and Wales.

The Crown Prosecution Service says adults should be charged if they use fake social media IDs to harass others.

Cases would also follow if posts were indecent, grossly offensive or so false they caused distress and anxiety.

The CPS is amending its guidelines to keep its staff up to date with modern crime.

"It is vital that prosecutors consider the bigger picture when looking at evidence and examine both the online and offline behaviour pattern of the defendant,"

The CPS is advising its prosecutors they should be prepared to charge under existing laws if a case falls into one of three categories:

    Category 1: when online activity results in a credible threat to an individual
    Category 2: when someone is specifically targeted for harassment, stalking, so-called revenge porn or coercive behaviour to former partners or family members
    Category 3: cases resulting in breaches of a court order"
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on March 03, 2016, 08:31:41 am
Thanks for bringing that to our attention Ian,  perhaps the Billy Nomates character who has appeared on here from time to time may take heed now and be aware of what may happen.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 03, 2016, 06:17:29 pm
Indeed Hugo and Ian,
A local test case and prosecution will be helped by the large amount of solid evidence stored on various media,  including this very Forum! 😃😃

If nutters persist in this kind of anti social and pointless behaviour they'll soon find themselves stood in front of a judge.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on March 04, 2016, 08:43:31 am
Thanks for bringing that to our attention Ian,  perhaps the Billy Nomates character who has appeared on here from time to time may take heed now and be aware of what may happen.
It has always amazed me that someone has the time and inclination to spend hours setting up fake profiles, email addresses etc, just to have a go at someone. I suppose they must be frustrated at life in general and have plenty of time on their hands, maybe a failing business or a dull retirement possibly? If only they could turn their efforts towards more positive things, they would be a lot happier themselves maybe?

Hopefully, the new CPS guidance will make them think twice about their actions, as I'm sure a court appearance and publicity in the local press would be very embarrassing for them.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on March 04, 2016, 11:05:10 am
Amen to that, Brutha!  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on April 12, 2016, 01:57:30 pm
People convicted of drink driving in Thailand will have to serve time working in the Morgue!
Innovative idea.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36025937 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-36025937)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on June 02, 2016, 09:16:39 am
I'd like to see more news like this:

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-02/builder-jailed-for-gloating-facebook-assault-message/ (http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-02/builder-jailed-for-gloating-facebook-assault-message/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on June 02, 2016, 10:28:00 am
That is justice for you.       $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on June 28, 2016, 09:23:27 am
A somewhat unusual crime story from the Daily Post archives:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/corpse-mutilating-gwynedd-vicars-story-11530725 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/corpse-mutilating-gwynedd-vicars-story-11530725)

Corpse mutilating Gwynedd vicar's story to feature in new TV series
19:00, 27 JUN 2016
BY ERYL CRUMP


A bizarre crime carried out by a man of the cloth which left a rural town appalled is to feature in a TV programme.

In 1985, Rev Emyr Owen, the minister of Bethesda Chapel in Tywyn was jailed for four years for mutilating three corpses and for sending death threats to people in North Wales in anonymous letters.

The case made national headlines and is featured in the programme Y Ditectif on S4C tomorrow night.

The clergyman was found to have severed the penises of the bodies after they had been laid out in the chapel of rest.

He was caught after police carried out an investigation into anonymous letters including one letter threatening to kill a woman’s four-year-old granddaughter.

In the programme former Detective Constable Gwyn Roberts recalls his time working on the case and explains how Emyr Owen was caught.

He says the well-respected preacher explained he had an evil side to his personality.

Former detective Gwyn Roberts, who investigated the case of Rev Emyr OwenFormer detective Gwyn Roberts, who investigated the case of Rev Emyr Owen

DC Roberts said: "Emyr Owen told me at the time that he was glad that he’d been caught. He said the ‘bad’ Emyr had now gone and that he would never return.

“Looking back at those years - I’m so glad we caught him before he did something worse. We’ll never know exactly what he did and unfortunately he took his secrets to his grave,” he said.

Police found photo negatives of dismembered genitalia arranged on plates at Owen’s home. The Welsh Presbyterian minister then admitted severing the private parts of three male bodies.

The programme features an old interview with Emyr Owen himself after he was released from prison. Vaughan Hughes, the producer, recalls his interview with the minister.

Mr Hughes said: “One of the questions I asked him was simply - why? Why did he carry out such deeds?

“And his response and shocking justification was that men should go to heaven without their sex organs.“

Vaughan Hughes reveals that he had also been a victim of Emyr Owen’s threats.

“In my case, after the programme was aired, Emyr Owen started phoning my home and would make threats. It wasn’t very nice,” he added.

Emyr Owen died in Llandudno in 2001 aged 78.

Y Ditectif is on S4C at 9.30pm on Tuesday, June 28.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 28, 2016, 10:23:01 am
Sounds completely bonkers!  :o
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on June 28, 2016, 11:19:05 am
Buffet lunch anyone? :o ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on June 28, 2016, 03:02:31 pm
Buffet lunch anyone? :o ;D

I'll pass on the cocktail sausages, if it's all the same.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2016, 03:35:23 pm
...and the pigs in blankets?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on July 07, 2016, 02:22:47 pm
We talked a while back, about the younger generation following in the footsteps of bad parents and poor education, but I have to say this shocked me.................

More than an estimated 7,000 North Wales schoolchildren have a parent in prison, according to new figures.

The disturbing data released by Wrexham Council also showed 65% of boys with a convicted father across the region are likely to offend themselves.
Figures emerged as council chiefs begin to head up a scheme to break the cycle of intergenerational offending in families.

The bid will be launched in tandem with the opening of Wrexham's new super prison which will help run the initiative.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/more-7000-north-wales-schoolchildren-11574937 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/more-7000-north-wales-schoolchildren-11574937)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 07, 2016, 04:57:20 pm
What Steve?  You were shocked it was such a low figure?
I agree, we need to build much bigger prisons judging by what I see all day long.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on July 07, 2016, 05:20:46 pm
What Steve?  You were shocked it was such a low figure?
I agree, we need to build much bigger prisons judging by what I see all day long.

Seriously I was shocked, It's not something I have thought about before, but that figure in relation to North Wales seemed high, perhaps my life is to sheltered.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on July 08, 2016, 07:48:41 pm
I'm in receipt of an RAF pension which is conditional on my good behaviour. If the same condition was imposed on the State Benefits paid to these miscreants we would soon see a drop in the offending rate and in the meanwhile just like Fester suggested, build bigger Prisons $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on July 08, 2016, 09:02:49 pm
I'm in receipt of an RAF pension which is conditional on my good behaviour.

B. I was surprised by your statement, I was unaware of these conditions applicable after leaving service, can you please explain further.    $thanx$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2016, 11:37:40 am
I believe that the same conditions apply to one of my pensions too although I have not taken the time to read the terms and conditions attached to the pension.   
I'm with Fester and Blongb on this though as we now have second and third generations of scroungers who know that there is no deterrent that can be taken against them at present.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Blongb on July 09, 2016, 03:56:59 pm
I'm in receipt of an RAF pension which is conditional on my good behaviour.

B. I was surprised by your statement, I was unaware of these conditions applicable after leaving service, can you please explain further.    $thanx$

I'm not sure where I have it written down Steve but we were certainly made awear that our Pension was conditional on demob.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on July 09, 2016, 05:01:48 pm
Thanks for that, seemed strange that they still have a hold on you, after your service.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SDQ on July 09, 2016, 05:22:16 pm
Thanks for that, seemed strange that they still have a hold on you, after your service.


Isn't it non-contributary?
It seems fair that if the pension is free they can make a few stipulations if you transgress in later life.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on July 17, 2016, 12:16:14 pm
Whether you like them or not, this is a shame.

Llandudno's 'Monkey Man' talks about being attacked in his home.
Llandudno's popular “Monkey Man” and his wife are recovering after allegedly being assaulted in their own home - for the sake of £10.

Police are investigating the incident which occurred on the morning of July 5 in the seaside town.

Sam Peters and Amanda Newman are well-known in Llandudno for entertaining people on the streets with their singing and dancing act .
He has won fans across the world for his Monkey Man act which involves dressing up in various guises with his toy monkey beside him.

The 63-year-old who has suffered from a variety of health problems over the years, including depression which performing helps him overcome.

More... http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/llandudnos-monkey-man-talks-being-11624154 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/llandudnos-monkey-man-talks-being-11624154)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 26, 2017, 12:15:12 am
This complete idiot had his sentence doubled to NINE years for setting fire in an aeroplane toilet.
It should have been NINETY years!
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40045599 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-40045599)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2017, 08:10:58 am
The sooner alcohol is banned from Airport departure lounges the better. And perhaps he could be sent to a Jihadi jail?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on July 20, 2017, 05:16:34 pm
This sentence for these offences is appalling.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-40668332 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-40668332)

After drinking ten pints, Poole got into his car and drove. Poole, from Glyn Ceiriog, admitted causing serious injury by dangerous driving and was jailed for three years on Thursday. He was also banned from driving for five-and-a-half years after admitting failing to provide blood and breath tests, failing to stop and driving without insurance. Mr Davies, a keen rugby player, suffered a broken leg, shattered shoulder blade, dislocated collar bone, lacerations to the head, bleeding to the kidney and bruising to his lungs and liver and now uses a wheelchair.
The court heard Poole had convictions including three instances of drink-driving, driving while disqualified, careless driving and failing to stop and was on licence at the time of the crash after being released from prison.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 20, 2017, 05:24:25 pm
It's shocking to have such a lenient sentence for such dangerous driving but I've also heard of those type of drivers killing people and getting a similar sentence so it's time that this type of thing is reviewed.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 20, 2017, 06:56:27 pm
Well, the injured parties can appeal the sentence. Does sound rather lenient to me.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on July 20, 2017, 07:40:45 pm
Well, the injured parties can appeal the sentence.

The injured parties shouldn't have to; they have had enough stress to deal with as it is. He should have been sentenced appropriately in the first place.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 21, 2017, 08:15:18 am
The problem is he's a hardened recidivist, so what's the solution? Peter Fahy (ex-chief con. Manchester) made an interesting point on the Beeb this morning when he reminded everyone that 99% of crime is committed by around 1% of the population.  He was commenting on the reports that the latest statistics seem to indicate a rise in violent crime.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on July 21, 2017, 11:56:43 am
The problem is he's a hardened recidivist, so what's the solution? Peter Fahy (ex-chief con. Manchester) made an interesting point on the Beeb this morning when he reminded everyone that 99% of crime is committed by around 1% of the population.  He was commenting on the reports that the latest statistics seem to indicate a rise in violent crime.

In that case, whilst it might be a slightly radical suggestion, I suggest eradicating that 1%.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 21, 2017, 12:31:23 pm
If my points system had have been implemented, they would be well on the way to it.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 21, 2017, 12:39:28 pm
As I've said before I saw someone else write an article about a points system similar to yours....Well it wasn't an article as such it was written on a wall.....in excrement.....in a mental home. But you get the idea  $good$

Anyway remind me again about your points system how many do you get for murder and how many must you accumulate before you get murdered? As I can see a rather obvious flaw in your plan  ££$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Cambrian on July 21, 2017, 02:48:24 pm
I seem to recall that until 1948, there was a provision called "preventive detention". This meant that Quarter Sessions could lock up persistent offenders indefinitely.  If persistent criminals who do not respond to non-custodial sentences were detained, they would not be at large committing offences. Another factor is the current vogue for sentences not being what Parliament prescribes because of the Sentencing Guidelines Council - not many victims or their families represented on this body as you can imagine. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 21, 2017, 03:34:23 pm
A good idea at the time Cambrian and still a good idea now but since then we have entered the EU.      Human Rights and interference  by the do gooders has meant that the law seems to favour the perpetrators rather than the victims.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 21, 2017, 03:36:59 pm
 &shake&

Which of these upsets you particularly?

Article 2 Right to life
Article 3 Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4 Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5 Right to liberty and security
Article 6 Right to a fair trial
Article 7 No punishment without law
Article 8 Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9 Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10 Freedom of expression
Article 11 Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12 Right to marry and start a family
Article 14 Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1 Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2 Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3 Right to participate in free elections
Protocol 13, Article 1 Abolition of the death penalty
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on July 21, 2017, 06:01:39 pm
&shake&

Which of these upsets you particularly?

Article 2 Right to life
Article 3 Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4 Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5 Right to liberty and security
Article 6 Right to a fair trial
Article 7 No punishment without law
Article 8 Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9 Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10 Freedom of expression
Article 11 Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12 Right to marry and start a family
Article 14 Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1 Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2 Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3 Right to participate in free elections
Protocol 13, Article 1 Abolition of the death penalty

All of them when they are used as excuses by the smarmy legal profession to prevent career criminals who ruin peoples lives being justly sentenced.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 21, 2017, 06:38:43 pm
That's brief and straight to the point Bosun and I can't disagree with your statement.     $good$

Just take one of BTR'S  selected articles for instance:-

Protocol 1, Article 3 Right to participate in free elections

This is a list of some of the people who are barred from participating in free elections in the UK

Convicted prisoners – notwithstanding repeated European Court of Human Rights rulings that this disqualification is a violation of prisoners’ rights; anybody who has been found guilty of corruption in the past five years; people with a mental illness or disability that prevents them from making a reasoned judgement. (To clarify this last disqualification: under the 1918 Representation of the People Act, you cannot register as an elector if you are “an idiot; a lunatic… [or] an imbecile who is not compos mentis” – but you may register and vote during a “lucid interval”.)

Surely someone who has broken the law and violated other people's human rights should not expect to have the right to vote.    Likewise a lunatic cannot register as an elector, which in the present climate must be a good thing or otherwise we might see Jeremy Corbyn as the PM.         :'(




Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Quiggs on July 21, 2017, 09:50:02 pm
There are times when I would like to use Article 10, but I would probably be arrested.  ;D
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 22, 2017, 12:25:46 am
Born to Run, I'm wasting my time debating anything with you, but if I must, it's this one I object to.

Protocol 13, Article 1 Abolition of the death penalty


However, I object to certain of the others being hijacked, corrupted and abused.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 22, 2017, 08:22:19 am
Capital punishment is almost certainly the most contentious issue. 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 24, 2017, 10:28:02 am
Capital punishment is almost certainly the most contentious issue.

Very contentious for all the innocent people through the years that have been murdered by the state.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 25, 2017, 12:59:25 pm
It's only contentious, and 'murder', if they get the verdict wrong surely?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 25, 2017, 02:05:56 pm
I believe several miscarriages were discovered a little too late. There are, however, some around now who might fully justify such a sanction.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 25, 2017, 02:18:58 pm
It's only contentious, and 'murder', if they get the verdict wrong surely?

Yes but even one wrong verdict is too many which is why this should never become law.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 25, 2017, 03:02:21 pm
Nah, I disagree B2R.
There is a tiny, tiny chance a miscarriage of justice could happen get me killed.
But there is a world, full of prisons, bursting with murderers.... and others at large waiting to commit the crime.
They need sorting out, so I'm happy to take my chances.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 25, 2017, 03:16:39 pm
It's only contentious, and 'murder', if they get the verdict wrong surely?

Yes but even one wrong verdict is too many which is why this should never become law.

Let's hope that they don't do a referendum on Capital Punishment then, because I've a feeling what the outcome would be.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on July 25, 2017, 03:17:01 pm
Nah, I disagree B2R.
There is a tiny, tiny chance a miscarriage of justice could happen get me killed.
But there is a world, full of prisons, bursting with murderers.... and others at large waiting to commit the crime.
They need sorting out, so I'm happy to take my chances.

You genuinely sound like a middle eastern dictator now.
What if it was your innocent son or daughter that was wrongly killed by the government, would that be fine then?
Because "for the greater good" this process will ultimately kill more bad people than good.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 25, 2017, 04:14:17 pm
I suspect the real problem with capital punishment is that the criteria for using it quickly become abused. That's certainly what history teaches, anyway.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 25, 2017, 05:10:00 pm
It's a very emotive subject and I can understand why the Government would not want a referendum on the matter as I believe that there would only be one outcome.
The death penalty is unsavoury to many but so is murder, especially in cases like Lee Rigby's.     The murderers were filmed doing it and in Court they had the audacity to plead not guilty to the charge.
The Police officers who attended the scene shot and wounded the two murderers but what I can't understand is how trained firearm experts did not shoot to kill as their own lives and members of the public were in danger.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on July 25, 2017, 07:14:20 pm
I could hazard a guess...
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on July 25, 2017, 07:37:39 pm
Nah, I disagree B2R.
There is a tiny, tiny chance a miscarriage of justice could happen get me killed.
But there is a world, full of prisons, bursting with murderers.... and others at large waiting to commit the crime.
They need sorting out, so I'm happy to take my chances.

You genuinely sound like a middle eastern dictator now.
What if it was your innocent son or daughter that was wrongly killed by the government, would that be fine then?
Because "for the greater good" this process will ultimately kill more bad people than good.

Yes B2R, that's exactly what I think, you've hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on August 30, 2017, 11:54:20 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-41097183 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-41097183)

A sentence of four years and four months for killing a 65 year old man in an unprovoked attack.

No-one can seriously call that justice, let alone a deterrent.

Can anyone wonder why I have absolutely no confidence in the criminal justice system.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2017, 07:40:44 am
But once again we can only guess at the real story. But if we examine the facts they paint a slightly different picture.

The assailant was very drunk and had consumed an entire bottle of vodka. That doesn't excuse what happened but I suspect everyone reading this will have encountered drunks and know how they can do something like that completely without warning.

It was a single punch. And the victim died from striking his head on the pavement. He was 65, although to me he looked significantly older, and he was taken completely by surprise.

So the court was faced with a teenage drunk (not that rare in Merseyside) whose naturally aggressive instincts had been unchained by the effects of alcohol (again, not that rare in Merseyside) who didn't intend to kill the victim, otherwise he'd have done something other than land a single punch.

Given all that, and we know nothing about the assailant's upbringing, which might have been pretty dire (not that rare in Merseyside...) and the assailant's age (technically, he was a child in the eyes of the law) what would you have the courts do? 17-year-olds make mistakes and, in this case, it was a fatal mistake.

The sentence can be appealed, of course, but the defence can argue that the death was caused directly by the victim's collision with the pavement and not the punch.

Of course, it makes for a good story, and that's what sells papers and hence ups the revenue of the media owners. But if we can be dispassionate about the case, what were the options?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2017, 11:21:28 am
Some may think it surprising but I'm entirely with Bosun here not Ian.
No amount of bad upbringing or vodka should give you any credence to attack a complete stranger.
If they had known each other and had an altercation that would be different. Even robbery would have some mitigation but this was an act of mindless violence.

What's worse is that if the victim hadn't died you'd be lucky if this lad would be punished at all.

The law is a joke, it should be 5 years in prison whether the person he attacked was injured or not.
If you're unfortunate enough that your victim dies as a direct result of that attack....bad luck.
Life in prison. Which is still nowhere near as much bad luck as the victim and his family have suffered.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2017, 11:53:39 am
The law is a joke, it should be 5 years in prison whether the person he attacked was injured or not.
If you're unfortunate enough that your victim dies as a direct result of that attack....bad luck.
Life in prison. Which is still nowhere near as much bad luck as the victim and his family have suffered.

So you're saying anyone who attacks someone else without apparent provocation should get five years in jail?  We'd have to build a lot more prisons, then, and we already lock up a higher percentage of our population than any other European country.

I'm not saying alcohol excuses the attack in any way. It doesn't, and the assailant deserves punishing.  But if you're suggesting what it seems you are - same sentence for anyone attacking someone else - then I'm not sure how you expect the law to act as a deterrent.

The simple fact is that prison doesn't work. If it did, why are there such high rates of re-offending?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2017, 12:08:41 pm
This woman and her husband were recently working as cleaners in the Deganwy and Conwy area.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-41106320 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-41106320)

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2017, 12:23:07 pm
The law is a joke, it should be 5 years in prison whether the person he attacked was injured or not.
If you're unfortunate enough that your victim dies as a direct result of that attack....bad luck.
Life in prison. Which is still nowhere near as much bad luck as the victim and his family have suffered.

So you're saying anyone who attacks someone else without apparent provocation should get five years in jail?  We'd have to build a lot more prisons, then, and we already lock up a higher percentage of our population than any other European country.

I'm not saying alcohol excuses the attack in any way. It doesn't, and the assailant deserves punishing.  But if you're suggesting what it seems you are - same sentence for anyone attacking someone else - then I'm not sure how you expect the law to act as a deterrent.

The simple fact is that prison doesn't work. If it did, why are there such high rates of re-offending?

Not apparent provocation I mean 'any' provocation.  ie this lad just walked up and attacked him out of the blue. I don't think that happens a lot there is normally some kind of confrontation first. But the bottom line is people should be free to walk down the street without expecting to be attacked and those do this should expect to be dealt with severely.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2017, 12:38:06 pm
The law is a joke, it should be 5 years in prison whether the person he attacked was injured or not.
If you're unfortunate enough that your victim dies as a direct result of that attack....bad luck.
Life in prison. Which is still nowhere near as much bad luck as the victim and his family have suffered.

So you're saying anyone who attacks someone else without apparent provocation should get five years in jail?  We'd have to build a lot more prisons, then, and we already lock up a higher percentage of our population than any other European country.

I'm not saying alcohol excuses the attack in any way. It doesn't, and the assailant deserves punishing.  But if you're suggesting what it seems you are - same sentence for anyone attacking someone else - then I'm not sure how you expect the law to act as a deterrent.

The simple fact is that prison doesn't work. If it did, why are there such high rates of re-offending?

Not apparent provocation I mean 'any' provocation.  ie this lad just walked up and attacked him out of the blue. I don't think that happens a lot there is normally some kind of confrontation first. But the bottom line is people should be free to walk down the street without expecting to be attacked and those do this should expect to be dealt with severely.

This was not a situation where we have to 'examine the facts' to determine the truth behind the headlines; this was simply utter thuggery that killed an innocent man. There is no conceivable 'reasonable excuse' or defence.

The sentence was, under any rationale, ludicrously short. He will be out in two years.  Is that supposed to reassure society that the CJS is protecting us?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2017, 03:24:24 pm
Anyone guilty of manslaughter or murder remains, I believe, on license for the rest of their lives. So I would assume he'll be closely monitored.

But to an extent you're right; horrendous acts of violence and thuggery do occur and the perpetrators are usually caught and punished but after, of course, they've done the deed. So these things will continue to happen and people will demand appropriate sentences.  The question I'm asking, however, is fairly simple: do you seriously believe that the next 17-year-old to get blind drunk will be deterred from throwing a single punch by a harsher sentence given to this individual? Because if you don't then why give much harsher sentences?

The CJS is reactive not proactive. For too long we've simply been throwing people in prison after the event instead of working on ways to deter the crimes from ever happening. There are almost certainly reasons why some people turn out to be criminal thugs and why most people turn out to be decent individuals. Perhaps if we spent a fraction of the prison budget on pre-criminal interventions we might make some progress,
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2017, 04:47:49 pm
Anyone guilty of manslaughter or murder remains, I believe, on license for the rest of their lives. So I would assume he'll be closely monitored.

  The question I'm asking, however, is fairly simple: do you seriously believe that the next 17-year-old to get blind drunk will be deterred from throwing a single punch by a harsher sentence given to this individual? Because if you don't then why give much harsher sentences?



No.

Because a prison sentence also serves as a punishment to the previous crime rather than solely a deterrent for future crimes. If we only did it your way then we wouldn't ever sentence anyone who does a crime by accident.
Eg - falling asleep behind the wheel, nobody means to fall asleep in a car, a man isn't going to be driving down a motorway think "I really feel like a nap but better not take one right here whilst I'm going 70mph because the last bloke who did that go 5 years"

You will probably say, but it may deter people from driving too long without taking rest periods, to which I would say
the consequences of falling asleep and killing himself are much worse than the consequences of his prison sentence should he survive the crash.  So it rules that out.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2017, 06:27:16 pm
Does the punishment fit the crime in this one?       


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-41106320 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-41106320)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2017, 06:50:42 pm
  The question I'm asking, however, is fairly simple: do you seriously believe that the next 17-year-old to get blind drunk will be deterred from throwing a single punch by a harsher sentence given to this individual? Because if you don't then why give much harsher sentences?



No.

Because a prison sentence also serves as a punishment to the previous crime rather than solely a deterrent for future crimes. If we only did it your way then we wouldn't ever sentence anyone who does a crime by accident.

I think you can be negligent and thus break the law through failing in your duty, but that's different to actively committing a crime. And in the case we're discussing the perpetrator did actively commit a crime: drunk in a public place, GBH, failing to report an accident and manslaughter, so he obviously needed a custodial sentence.

But I never claimed to have any answers: just a lot of questions, evoked mainly by seeing how the CJS in the UK simply doesn't seem to work. On that we agree;  we simply differ on the best way of addressing it.

If locking people up worked there'd be far lower rates of recidivism. There aren't so it doesn't. We spend a huge amount of taxpayers' money on the CJS in the locking up bit, but almost none of the preventative bit. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and prevent crime?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 01, 2017, 12:01:14 am
Some may think it surprising but I'm entirely with Bosun here not Ian.
No amount of bad upbringing or vodka should give you any credence to attack a complete stranger.
If they had known each other and had an altercation that would be different. Even robbery would have some mitigation but this was an act of mindless violence.

What's worse is that if the victim hadn't died you'd be lucky if this lad would be punished at all.

The law is a joke, it should be 5 years in prison whether the person he attacked was injured or not.
If you're unfortunate enough that your victim dies as a direct result of that attack....bad luck.
Life in prison. Which is still nowhere near as much bad luck as the victim and his family have suffered.

So, finally, you're coming around to my way of thinking.
The points system, its the only way.
You know it makes sense.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on September 01, 2017, 08:45:42 am
the bottom line is people should be free to walk down the street without expecting to be attacked and those do this should expect to be dealt with severely.
It could almost be me speaking....  $good$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2017, 08:51:39 am
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on September 01, 2017, 12:53:24 pm
I am both horrified and incensed by the CJS that is supposed to be protecting the public, and sadly, the general public's lack of knowledge of the failings of the system.

From the St Helen's Star, the local paper to this offence: http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/15503216.REVEALED__Face_of_drunken_yob_who_admitted_the_manslaughter_of_Len_Saunders/ (http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/15503216.REVEALED__Face_of_drunken_yob_who_admitted_the_manslaughter_of_Len_Saunders/)

Woods was arrested at home at about 1am the next morning after being awoken by his mum throwing water over his face as he lay in bed after officers arrived.

He was aggressive and angry, tried to run away and twice tried to head-butt an officer.

He was interviewed that afternoon by which time he had damaged his cell floor and when told he was also being arrested for criminal damage he punched the wall in anger and declined to answer questions.

He was re-arrested after Mr Saunders died and was described as “yawning and laughing” when shown CCTV footage. He gave a prepared statement in which he accepted responsibility for the attack. (Undoubtedly prepared by his Legal Aid funded solicitor.)

Woods has a conviction and a caution for criminal damage and another caution for having a bladed article.

Obviously this youth has been through the CJS and probably been arrested about seven times, recieving informal warnings, cautions, referrals to Juvenile Panels etc before he eventually appeared before the courts for the first time. Obviously, he has no fear or worries of the CJS and will no doubt treat his short incarceration for a capital offence with the same contempt.

Just what message to you think that this crime and the subsequent sentance sends out to the youth of the Liverpool area that have a propensity to violence? Do you think anyone will be deterred? Do you think that the victim's family feel that justice has been served?  One thing it does show, is how far the judiciary are out of touch with reality.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2017, 02:32:52 pm
I'm only guessing, but I imagine the sort of youth that is “yawning and laughing” when being charged with manslaughter is unlikely to be affected one way or another.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2017, 02:59:24 pm
You are correct Ian but the general public should still be protected from scum like that.     A short or long spell inside won't deter his kind and where else would he get free board and lodgings, Sky TV and innumerable benefits including immediate medical treatment.
The system is wrong and should be changed
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2017, 03:16:42 pm
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options? 
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on September 01, 2017, 03:38:08 pm
I'm only guessing, but I imagine the sort of youth that is “yawning and laughing” when being charged with manslaughter is unlikely to be affected one way or another.

Ian, with all due respect, you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'. Make your mind up; because there are many thousands of these types, everywhere, not just in inner cities, we have them here in North Wales as well.

And we all chance being a victim of them.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2017, 05:41:16 pm
Ah, now that's not what I said. Breaking it down

Quote
you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'.

The term 'pre-criminal intervention' means exactly that: intervening well before any criminality emerges.  That means before the child reaches the age of seven. Of course, working with them after that age or even after they've committed the offence is far less effective, if it works at all.

Look at it logically.  Teenagers who get drunk and lash out in an unprovoked manner don't usually appear suddenly.  I would be willing to bet a large amount that there'll be a very thick file on that individual, and it will date back to his reception class days. Junior schools know who these people are, well before they become old enough and big enough to cause real harm.

The reasons are varied, but most stem from appalling home backgrounds. In Social work it's known as the vicious cycle - bad parents produce damaged children who go on to become bad parents. Sociologists have argued about the root causes of this for years; many say it's to do with society breakdown, others that it's due to family breakdown. Whatever the causes we do know some things for sure: Jewish communities and Jewish families have a much, much lower rate of juvenile offending. Black and Caribbean families have a much higher rate. Deprived areas have a much higher rate. Strong Church communities have a much lower rate.

The common factors are not, as was once thought, poverty and deprivation, however; they seem to be family and community. Where children are brought up in large extended families or, as in Jewish families, where the religion and way of life are inextricably combined, children tend not to go on to become offenders. Where children are brought up without an extended family and have no community or faith-based groupings, they are statistically far more likely to become offenders.

Simply put, it revolves around mores, values and expectations. If children are brought up to know right from wrong then it usually has an effect.  However, if the parents don't know right from wrong themselves and there's no extended family to reinforce values or no community, then the child is far more likely to become a criminal.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2017, 06:44:19 pm
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options?

I do favour a jail sentence Ian and the longer the better.      It's just that the inmates have too many benefits there, they are not deprived of anything apart from their freedom, they can still enjoy drugs, mobile phones computers and all the other things that they had before.


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2017, 07:34:04 pm
We do hear about those enjoying a holiday camp lifestyle, Hugo, but I do have a close friend who's an ex-high security prison guard and I doubt he'd agree that it's that way for most. But it's been a while since I was inside a prison - around 40 years ago, I think - and that was Park Lane, which was a high security Mental hospital, anyway.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on September 01, 2017, 09:28:19 pm
Now you raise an interesting point, Hugo. I totally agree that the public need protecting from his ilk. But you clearly don't favour the idea of a jail sentence, so what are the options?

 >?>?? ^^^^ $smack$

I couldn't find an emoji for a gun.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Big Alan on September 03, 2017, 06:09:15 pm
St. Helens isn't in Liverpool. Might want to edit that earlier post if you don't mind Ian  $angry$
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on September 03, 2017, 07:00:57 pm
I've changed it to Merseyside.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on September 09, 2017, 02:00:59 pm
Ah, now that's not what I said. Breaking it down

Quote
you are the one that has called for 'pre-criminal intervention' and spending money on 'preventative issues', but this is exactly the type of antisocial animal that you have now said is 'unlikely to be affected one way or another'.

The term 'pre-criminal intervention' means exactly that: intervening well before any criminality emerges.  That means before the child reaches the age of seven. Of course, working with them after that age or even after they've committed the offence is far less effective, if it works at all.

Look at it logically.  Teenagers who get drunk and lash out in an unprovoked manner don't usually appear suddenly.  I would be willing to bet a large amount that there'll be a very thick file on that individual, and it will date back to his reception class days. Junior schools know who these people are, well before they become old enough and big enough to cause real harm.

The reasons are varied, but most stem from appalling home backgrounds. In Social work it's known as the vicious cycle - bad parents produce damaged children who go on to become bad parents. Sociologists have argued about the root causes of this for years; many say it's to do with society breakdown, others that it's due to family breakdown. Whatever the causes we do know some things for sure: Jewish communities and Jewish families have a much, much lower rate of juvenile offending. Black and Caribbean families have a much higher rate. Deprived areas have a much higher rate. Strong Church communities have a much lower rate.

The common factors are not, as was once thought, poverty and deprivation, however; they seem to be family and community. Where children are brought up in large extended families or, as in Jewish families, where the religion and way of life are inextricably combined, children tend not to go on to become offenders. Where children are brought up without an extended family and have no community or faith-based groupings, they are statistically far more likely to become offenders.

Simply put, it revolves around mores, values and expectations. If children are brought up to know right from wrong then it usually has an effect.  However, if the parents don't know right from wrong themselves and there's no extended family to reinforce values or no community, then the child is far more likely to become a criminal.

I don't think anyone could disagree with you, a good post.

However, we are in the 'here and now', and sooner or later society is going to wake up and find that it cannot cope on many levels with this sort of offence by feral thugs. The suffering and pain of the victims and families is horrendous and ripples through friends, associates, neighbours, extended family and communities. Sadly, I've seen it too often. The financial costs borne by society of this thug are massive, in welfare, housing, support and benefit payments, policing and court costs, and now housing him in prison. 

He obviously has utter contempt and distain for society and he will never be of any value or contribute to society.

So, what would you do to punish him properly and that the punishment was an overt deterrent to others like him that pollute our communities? 

I know what I'd do.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Bosun on September 29, 2017, 09:39:06 am
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-41415658 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-41415658)

Another deplorably short sentence for horrendous offences committed in Bangor.

At some stage, society has to wake up.

I'm praying that it's sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2018, 06:56:11 pm
I'm just glad that I don't own a shop,

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/serial-shoplifter-banned-every-asda-14510400 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/serial-shoplifter-banned-every-asda-14510400)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: norman08 on April 09, 2018, 07:19:30 pm
He says he steals as he struggles for money, so they once again fine him around £400, um how is he going to pay that 🤔
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2018, 07:32:54 pm
And it costs society far too much to put him in prison, so what's the answer?
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2018, 09:02:02 pm
Let's be kind to the poor chap as he's had a bad childhood etc etc  perhaps Asda or the Co-op may get him a job!      &shake&
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: DaveR on April 10, 2018, 08:22:56 am
I'm just glad that I don't own a shop,

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/serial-shoplifter-banned-every-asda-14510400 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/serial-shoplifter-banned-every-asda-14510400)
Scum.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: born2run on April 10, 2018, 12:15:59 pm
He must really like Cornflakes  D)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on May 30, 2018, 08:39:39 pm
Are there no depths to which fraudsters and freeloaders will not stoop?
These scumbags have defrauded the Grenfell Tower charity funds, to live for free!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44303823 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44303823)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 31, 2018, 12:25:10 pm
I read that report too and it's sick, but I bet they are not the only ones who have done such a despicable thing.

These illegal immigrants should be made to serve their time in prison here, then immediately deported on their release from prison.
If any do gooders object to this then tough,  we have enough home grown scum without importing others
Title: Very Expensive Mistake
Post by: Meleri on July 18, 2018, 03:40:31 pm
At Llandudno Magistrates Court yesterday a man from Pensarn Abergele was fined in his absence £220 plus £150 legal costs, £114.14 investigative costs and £30 victim surcharge. The offence took place on Pensarn Beach where the man allowed his dog off the lead and it did the business. On seeing this a Conwy enforcement officer approached the offender to offer a dog poo bag and hoped to give educational advice, but the man ran away to his car and drove off. One very expensive mistake of £514.14, I hope this irresponsible anti-social individual won't make again  >:(
Title: Re: Very Expensive Mistake
Post by: born2run on July 18, 2018, 04:02:19 pm
"On seeing this a Conwy enforcement officer approached the offender to offer a dog poo bag and hoped to give educational advice"

 ;D ??? :-X
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Fester on August 14, 2018, 02:23:02 pm
Don’t you just LOVE the British justice system?
Ben Stokes not guilty of affray, or any other charge.
He didn’t do it!
But we all saw him do it!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45182868 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45182868)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on November 16, 2018, 05:03:32 pm
I think Judge Huw Rees deserves three cheers for his judgement in this case, pity it stands out against the norm.

A teenager who was part of a gang which "trashed" a beauty salon has been spared jail.
But Reece Owen was ordered to pay £3,000 in compensation to the proprietor of La Belle Femme Beauty Salon in Prestatyn.

He was also warned that, if he committed another offence or breached the court order, he would go to prison.
The 18-year-old, of Cawthorne Avenue, Kirkby, Merseyside, admitted the burglary in August last year.

He also admitted burglary at McColls convenience store in Prestatyn on the same evening.
Sentencing the teenager, Judge Huw Rees said he needed to appreciate the effect burglaries have on individuals.

The judge told him: "You need to tread very carefully in future. The mitigation you have put forward this time will wear very thin."
Owen was handed a 33-week term in a young offenders institution, which was suspended for 18 months. He must carry out 150 hours of unpaid work and attend two courses organised by the probation service.

The judge ordered Owen, a labourer, to pay the compensation at the rate of £150 a month.

"In total, the loss to the business was £3,000. The salon was unable to open the following day and clients were turned away, but staff were paid in any event."

Simon Killeen, defending, urged the court to take the delay in charging Owen into account and to bear in mind his age.
ref DP
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2019, 03:52:41 pm
This guy must have thought that he had the perfect place for hiding his crack cocaine

https://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/17388580.x-ray-fails-to-discover-where-man-hid-drugs/?ref=erec (https://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/17388580.x-ray-fails-to-discover-where-man-hid-drugs/?ref=erec)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2019, 12:10:47 pm
The Police have an extremely difficult job to do and I just wish that the Courts would be more consistent in passing sentences on the culprits.
Take Dean Saunders for instance, he was given 10 weeks in jail for refusing to take a breath test but only served one day in jail pending his appeal.   I've no sympathy with him whatsoever and hope that the camera footage will prevent any loophole being exploited.
The other example is of a woman who was over three times the limit for drink driving and managed to clip a road worker twice  before driving off.    It was all filmed and she was stopped by the Police further up the road.   She got off with a suspended jail sentence and showed a total contempt for the law when she dropped litter in the form of a cigarette end on the floor outside of Court


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/drunk-driver-avoids-jail-could-16857290 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/drunk-driver-avoids-jail-could-16857290)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 21, 2019, 03:51:11 pm
This is one of the most frightening stories I have ever read,  I hope they make the right decisions, and get this right.

"A teenager accused of the attempted murder of a fellow pupil during school time said he wanted to "experience the feeling of killing someone", a jury was told."

Cont.......... https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/teenager-stabbed-fellow-pupil-school-17120949 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/teenager-stabbed-fellow-pupil-school-17120949)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 21, 2019, 04:23:55 pm
That's such a sad story to read and incomprehensible to understand what possesses a person to think along those lines.      Forget about PC and the do gooders the person should be locket up indefinitely for not only his own sake but more importantly for the safety of others
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 21, 2019, 05:18:11 pm
That's such a sad story to read and incomprehensible to understand what possesses a person to think along those lines.      Forget about PC and the do gooders the person should be locket up indefinitely for not only his own sake but more importantly for the safety of others

If what he said to the Police is accurately represented then it would appear he's suffering from a severe mental illness. It certainly doesn't qualify as 'normal' behaviour in any sense of the word. He probably would need to be committed.

In terms of locking him up indefinitely, a lot would depend on whether he can be cured. This is not about 'do-gooders' or PC; it's all about how society treats people with severe mental illnesses.

Mental illness is one of the most diabolical illnesses you can imagine.  A lot of people succumb, particularly adolescent girls, although attempting murder just to see what it feels like is the most severe. He will go away for along time.

But our record on prisons and prisoners isn't great; we incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any other country in Europe. Now, either the UK is full of very bad criminals or there's something essentially wrong with the current justice system.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 21, 2019, 06:52:23 pm
"Mental illness is one of the most diabolical illnesses you can imagine.  A lot of people succumb, particularly adolescent girls, although attempting murder just to see what it feels like is the most severe. He will go away for along time.

But our record on prisons and prisoners isn't great; we incarcerate a higher percentage of our population than any other country in Europe. Now, either the UK is full of very bad criminals or there's something essentially wrong with the current justice system."

I agree with your comments shown above Ian and that various Governments have let a number of people down but until there is proper reform in the system the majority of law abiding people should be protected from random attacks like this.    At present the only way to protect the population is to keep these people off the streets and so prevent them from doing the same thing again.
I have no confidence in the Parole Boards in the light of numerous mistakes they have made but cannot suggest an alternative other than to keep the offenders away from the general public.     A crime is a crime whether it is committed by someone with a mental illness or not


Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 23, 2019, 09:58:25 am
More on the above story.

Eirias High School: 'Psychopathic' school boy lied to police about 'killing someone' fantasy.

https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17987228.eirias-high-school-psychopathic-school-boy-lied-police-killing-someone-fantasy/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17987228.eirias-high-school-psychopathic-school-boy-lied-police-killing-someone-fantasy/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 25, 2019, 10:39:06 am
A SCHOOLBOY with a morbid fascination to kill has been convicted of attempting to murder a fellow pupil in a school corridor.

Following the verdict it was revealed that he had thoughts of killing a member of his own family but the jury had not been told of that during the trial.

The jury at Mold Crown Court retired for 48 minutes today and unanimously convicted him.

Judge Rhys Rowlands remanded him in custody pending sentence but warned him that he faced a significant custodial sentence.

https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17991215.ysgol-eirias-school-boy-found-guilty-attempting-murder-fellow-pupil-corridor/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17991215.ysgol-eirias-school-boy-found-guilty-attempting-murder-fellow-pupil-corridor/)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Ian on October 25, 2019, 11:33:44 am
There's something seriously wrong in his background, I suspect.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on November 11, 2019, 03:42:11 pm
STAFF and volunteers at St David’s Hospice have been left shocked and upset after thieves targeted the charity.

Properties in Mochdre, that help raise money for end of life care in north West Wales, were victim to costly damage during two overnight break-ins the space of three days. The charity’s Donation Centre on Quinton Hazel Enterprise Park was targeted overnight on Thursday November 7 followed by the Reuse Shop at The Household Recycling Centre in Mochdre on the evening of Sunday 10. Staff at the Donation Centre, which acts as the main drop off point for the St David’s Hospice shops, discovered an attempted break in on Friday morning which was unsuccessful but caused damage to doors and windows. In the second break in at the Reuse Shop they gained entrance.

Jamie Parks, Hospice Warehouse Manager, said: “We’re shocked and disappointed thieves would target us and attempt to take money and stock that should have gone to the charity. Members of our retail team discovered the break ins when they went to open up the following day. At the Reuse Shop the opportunist broke the window at the front of the building, damage display cabinets, rifled through drawers, broke the cash register and stole the £50 float. They then tried to take a bike which they got stuck on the fencing. The police are now involved and we have had to close the Reuse Shop to allow for an investigation to take place meaning we lose a day’s business.

“It has obviously had an impact on our team, who are all very dedicated to supporting the Hospice.”               ref Pioneer
.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on November 11, 2019, 04:03:42 pm
That's absolutely disgusting
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Nemesis on November 11, 2019, 06:13:53 pm
That's absolutely disgusting

Couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2021, 02:49:24 pm
There are a couple of programmes about the North Wales Police on TV this week.        Tonight at 8.00 pm on ITV is Beyond the Line and it's the first of a four parter going behind the scenes with the officers of the North Wales Roads Policing Unit
The second one is on tomorrow (Tuesday) night on Channel 5 at 10.00 pm and is called Officers under attack and is the last of a five parter
This one shows how a desperate gang of suspected burglars try to smash a Police car with bricks as they attempt to escape capture

It's frightening to think that these people are living among us and quite often annoying to see soft sentences being handed out by the courts
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on May 05, 2022, 09:59:22 am
'Justice awaits' message on bench latest twist in mystery of missing North Wales woman
Trevaline Evans left her antiques shop in Llangollen in 1990 and hasn't been seen since but theories about what happened to her have been in constant circulation


There will be an episode of " In the footsteps of killers"  on Channel 4 in the future which investigates unsolved cold cases and may star Amilia Fox.     I remember seeing crimewatch many years ago about the missing lady but the crime still remains a mystery so it should be interesting to watch.     The North Wales Police Force should come under some scrutiny judging by this article

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/justice-awaits-message-bench-latest-23862889 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/justice-awaits-message-bench-latest-23862889)
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on June 07, 2022, 03:42:11 pm
I would never go on a bike nowadays as the roads are so dangerous but I know a number of people who do enjoy cycling on the road.    Thankfully none of the people I know have been involved in a traffic accident.
 Unlike Maj O'Reilly who was the victim of a hit and run driver who left him dead   
 Maj O'Reilly had suffered a broken back, pelvis and leg and underwent 22 hours of surgery in the first two days of treatment.    The uninsured driver was given just 12 weeks in jail for this act and will probably serve less that that.   His Solicitor is appealing against the 12 week jail sentence     :o

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/ex-army-major-left-dead-24158668
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2022, 09:16:26 am
The Morons of the week award must go to these
Louts 'steal, urinate on and burn' donations left outside Llandudno RSPCA store
North Wales Police have increased patrols in the area after an increase in anti-social behaviour outside the shop in Craig-y-Don

In this latest incident the Police must be able to solve this crime as there are enough CCTV cameras about and the morons have also left their calling cards

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/louts-steal-urinate-burn-donations-24704831
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on August 11, 2022, 09:09:36 am
Another candidate for the Moron of the week award?

'Automatic fire-starting device' at tinder-dry beauty spot left by 'brain-dead idiots'
The suspected device has been reported to the authorities but its exact purpose remains unclear



https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/automatic-fire-starting-device-tinder-24725218
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: SteveH on October 18, 2022, 09:46:23 am
I heard about drugs being found on a NW beach, but the total amount is a bit of a shocker.......

Huge cocaine haul found on Welsh beach was worth ?42m, police confirm
More than a tonne of the illegal substance was found in bags by a dog walker

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/huge-cocaine-haul-found-welsh-25282280
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 18, 2022, 10:14:45 am
It was a lucky find but it makes you wonder just how many drugs are getting into the UK      I've attached a link about another drugs find on the West Wales coast a short time ago

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/secret-bunker-built-underneath-tiny-21598137





Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on October 19, 2022, 08:49:58 am
It was a bit disturbing to read this headline in the Daily Post yesterday:-
Secret symbols used by burglars spook residents in North Wales town
The chalk markings left outside houses has been associated with break-ins and dog thefts


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/secret-symbols-used-burglars-spook-25287406
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Helig on October 19, 2022, 10:17:21 am
This prompted me to tell a story about an accountant I had some dealings with through my job. He liked a chat and said that he had a client who was a professional burglar. Out of interest he asked him what made him/them decide which house to break into. The reply was that they didn't go into anywhere blind. They obtained information from people in insurance companies so they knew what valuable contents were in particular properties. It seems he/they paid people in insurance companies for information.
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: mull on July 28, 2023, 12:12:58 pm
Hi Hugo, Do you recall me telling you about Fly and I carrying out a search in the Glen Orchy area for a missing cyclist a few years back.

The Twin brothers responsible for his death are at last on trial and case resumes today Friday. Hard to believe anyone could be so wicked and I am pleased they have been caught. They were both off the Auch Estate and in the past gamekeepers on that estate had been caught putting out poisoned bate to kill raptors. I was always reluctant to go training with search dogs in that area not being sure what the dog would pick up.

BBC News on here------   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-66256705

Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 28, 2023, 04:37:40 pm
Hi Mull,   I remember you telling me about the search that you were doing and you said then that you suspected that the farmers were responsible for the death of the cyclist.   There are some wicked people about but that incident was pure evil so they deserve to be severely punished.
You certainly did the right thing keeping Fly away from the estate and I hope that no other dogs were affected by the poison bait
Title: Re: Crime and criminals
Post by: Hugo on July 29, 2023, 12:28:22 pm
Apparently it was on the National TV news but I missed seeing it, but read this article today.



https://news.sky.com/video/tony-parsons-death-drink-drivers-partner-left-can-to-lead-police-to-victims-grave-12929562