Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Jeff on June 01, 2018, 02:09:48 am

Title: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 01, 2018, 02:09:48 am

 Sorry I think I entered this in the wrong place
                


»

Thank you for excepting me,     My grandmother Ethel Katie Roberts was born in 1891 and living at 1 Penbroke Villa Hew Street Llaududuo parents Hugh Roberts and Kate Roberts nee Jones. Ethel also had a younger brother Robert born 1893 and on the death suddenly in 1896 of both parents died 3 month apart of Pleuro Pheumonia both children where put into Oakamoor Boys Home (1901 census) .In 1911 my gran is in Blackburn then on to Durham to marry. I am hoping some may help me to find Robert family, what I believe he is on the 1939 register along with his wive Elizabeth nee Jones and two of his 4-5 children William born 1925 an Eric R J  Roberts born 1930
 Thank you Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 04, 2018, 03:00:11 pm
Hi Jeff,  could you please just clarify some points:-

a) where and what was the Oakamoor  Boys Home?

b)   Was your Grandmother in touch with her brother and did she have an address for him in this area as you seem to know a bit about Robert and his family?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 04, 2018, 11:51:53 pm
Hi Hugo, I received this in my early days  of looking ..The home was located in Coed Pella Road, Colwyn Bay somewhere near the Constitutional Club.  We have no idea how long the home was in existence although it is not listed on the 1891 census and was no longer a home by 1911. On the 1901 census it should read Oakamoor (Boys home) rather than Oakamoor Bryn House  . As to have been in touch with her brother I believe my fathers sister may have went there at some time but if she did nothing was said. Like all children growing up you are to interested in what happenings tomorrow not what happened years ago. I do not know a great deal but it is what I have put together over the years, all I can remember was there was a brother Robert (that I was told went of to be a Don at a university). I am guessing that the Robert on the 1901 census is him but no concrete proof, but with a name of Robert Roberts born around 1893 in Conway there was a lot to pick  from, the nearest I got is the one on the 1939 register. Up till  now I have not had any one on the any mailing lists that know of the family.
 Thank's again
 Regards
        Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 05, 2018, 08:24:32 am
One thing I find hard to understand is at the time of Ethel and Robert parents death in 1896 father Hugh had two brothers and two sister and mother Kate had four sister and two brothers living close by plus both sets of grandparents where alive so why but the two young children into a home.
 Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: rhuddlan on June 05, 2018, 09:48:08 am
 .Ive no time to do any research today but it may help Hugo....

http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/ColwynOakamoor/ (http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/ColwynOakamoor/)
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 05, 2018, 01:11:03 pm
Thanks Rhuddln, I'll look at it a bit later.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 05, 2018, 02:36:17 pm
That's a good find Rhuddlan, the home in Colwyn Bay housed up to 20 boys but I'm not sure where Ethel Kate fits into this as it's a boys home.

Jeff, if Robert was a Don at a University the chances are that he wouldn't be living in this area but you can't be certain of these things.
I've no personal knowledge of the family but there are a number of things that can be done which may help but I think that the best way to look for him is to start at the beginning in 1893.
The Conwy Archives at Llandudno will have his Baptism records providing of course that he was Baptised.    They will also have the Baptism records of any children of Robert and Elizabeth providing that they were also Baptised and in Conwy County.
One other thing that they have there is a Street Index, it has the names of people listed alphabetically and where they lived but these are limited to 1929, 1939 and another in the 1960's as well as a few earlier than that

I'm unable to go to the Archives until next week but will gladly go to have a look and see what I can find and post it on here
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2018, 06:25:53 am
Hi Hugo
  With him being a Don I think it is one of those family myths that just gets hand down.
  I will email the Conwy Archives at Llandudno  and ask about the bapt;  if they have it I will order it, will ask about there marriage as well.
 Thank you for the offer very much appreciated
 Regards Jeff
 PS where most children are give parents or grandparents names in my case my middle name  is the area they came from but with an add A
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 06, 2018, 08:18:29 am
Hi Jeff,  the Baptism records may give a clue with the names but if you hold on requesting them for a week I'll be able to have a root around their records and may come up with a few more things.
You mentioned the 1939 Register and the possibility of Robert being there, what was the address for those records?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2018, 09:30:31 am
Hi Hugo
   24 Pool Hill Residence Place:   Caernarvon, Caernarvonshire, Wales the entry before that is Pool Side Square
Sub Schedule Number:   1
Enumeration District:   ZDDE
Registration district:   630/3
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 06, 2018, 07:01:33 pm
Hi Hugo
This may help if I have the correct family Robert born 12 Nov; 1893, Elizabeth born 6 Dec 1898, William 4 Aug; 1925 and Eric born 6 Sept 1931
 Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 06, 2018, 07:39:33 pm
Hi Jeff,  thanks for posting the address on here but if it is correct then there may be complications.    Any Baptism records for the children if they were born in Caernarfon would be in the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon.     

Robert's own Baptism record if there is one, would be in the Conwy Archives if he was born in Llandudno but I'm hoping that a search in the Conwy Archives may reveal some more info to go on.

If Robert did live in Caernarfon he may have been a Don as Bangor University was only 9 or 10 miles from the address in Caernarfon
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 06, 2018, 09:32:28 pm
Hi Hugo
This may help if I have the correct family Robert born 12 Nov; 1893, Elizabeth born 6 Dec 1898, William 4 Aug; 1925 and Eric born 6 Sept 1931
 Jeff


Jeff,  I have checked the birth records on the dates provided for Robert and Elizabeth and this is the position;-

There is only one entry for a Robert Roberts registered in the Conway Registration District for the quarter ended Dec 1893

There is also only one entry for an Elizabeth Jones registered in the Conway Registration District for the quarter ended Dec 1898 and her name is recorded as Elizabeth Ellen Jones

The Baptism records will show Robert address and confirm whether this is your Robert

PS     I did find a marriage between Elizabeth E Jones and Roberts in the Conway District but this was for June 1926 which did not fit in with William's date of birth in 1925, unless of course William was illegitimate

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 07, 2018, 12:16:36 am
Hi 
   there is this one ---Robert Roberts m Elizabeth Jones Jun Q 1917 Conway Reg
Jeff

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 08, 2018, 12:35:04 am
Thanks Jeff,  I've now seen that entry and it's given me something to work on.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 11, 2018, 05:44:29 pm
Hi Jeff,  I went to the Conwy Archives this afternoon but couldn't find much info but this is what I found:-

I wanted to start from the 1890's and work forward but couldn't find Hugh and Kate in the 1891 Census records

I then looked at the Burial Indexes but there was no entry for Hugh and Kate Roberts in either the Llandudno Parish or the Eglwysrhos  (Llanrhos) Parish
However there was an entry for a Hugh and Catherine Roberts of Wyddfyd Terrace  (that's on the Great Orme)       The inscription on the headstone is in Welsh and is translated as follows:-
Hugh Roberts died 14th January 1896 aged 28
Catherine Roberts died April 1996  aged 28
Could  Catherine be your Kate?     Anyway Hugh and Catherine are buried together at St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme   Grave no G174

I had a look at the Street Index and Pembroke Villa in New Street has been demolished at sometime, it was there in the 1911 Street Index and was on the north side of the street behind where the Winter Gardens Ballroom and the Odean Cinema once was.
Did you get the address from a Census record?

I looked at the Baptism records for Ethel Katie and Robert but there were no entries for them in the Llandudno Parish Baptism Register.
The records I looked at covered up to 1894 but it could be that they were never Baptised or that they are in the next Register for 1895 onwards or even in the Llanrhos Parish Register.
Llandudno in those days was covered by two Parishes, Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and the boundary was roughly down the centre of the town.

I then had a look at the Llandudno Parish Wedding Banns Register and there was no entry in 1917 or in 1926 for Robert Roberts and Elizabeth Jones.      It may be that the Banns for their marriage were heard in the bride's home Parish, do you know where that was?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 12, 2018, 02:19:00 am
Hi Hugo----On the 1891 census Hugh and Kate are living with her father William Jones at 1 Pembroke Villas New Street district 13, Llandudno. With her name's Catherine or Kate, on her's and Hugh death cert; and there daughter birth cert; she is down as Kate. The marriage date is 1890 Sept quarter Conwy Civil Marriage Reg Cnwy/11/69  11B 645 Hugh Roberts and Kate Jones. The dates you have for there death is correct both 1896 . The address came from grandmothers birth cert and it matches the 1891 census . At this time I do not know if she was Bapt; the birth cert; says born 29 June 1891 registered 28 July 1891 sub-district Creuddyn Reg;-District Conway .
 Which  Elizabeth Jones it was is a bit of a guess, The one I am looking at is taken of the 1901 census Elizabeth that has father William mother Margaret and brother Henry they are living at Trefriw district 9
 All the best Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 12, 2018, 12:08:47 pm
Thanks Jeff,  it would appear that Hugh and Kate (Catherine) moved after the 1891 Census to Wyddfyd Terrace on the Great Orme.

Now both New Street and Wyddfyd Terrace were in the old Parish of Llandudno, so if there has been a Baptism then it should be in the Llandudno Parish Register.  I will need to look at the Register for 1895 onwards to see if there is an entry there Katie and Robert.

When you are looking up records it is a help to know where the person was born or any address that they had lived at as it narrows the search down

You mentioned that the Elizabeth you found lived in Trefriw, now that could explain why I couldn't find the record of the Wedding Banns in the Llandudno Parish Register.
They must have been called in the bride's home parish of Trefriw and if that is the case then those records will also be in the Conwy Archives

What makes you think that the couple when married were living in the Llandudno area and do you have an address there?   
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 12, 2018, 01:39:07 pm
No I do not have an address the only one is of the 1939 register , only reason I say that they may be in Llandudno is all the information before 1901 say so. As I can not find Robert on the 1911 census it doe's not help us. There is only one or two that are not sons but doe's not help
The two sons William Roberts mother Jones   Conway  11b   676 and     Eric R J Roberts mother Jones    Jones    Conway    11b   616
 Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 12, 2018, 02:40:43 pm
Thanks Jeff, that address in the 1939 Register doesn't help me here in Llandudno but what I can do is:

Look in the Baptism Register for Llandudno Parish from 1895 onwards as it would be nice to see if  Katie and Robert were Baptised there

I'll also look in the Baptism Register for 1917 onwards just in case they were living in Llandudno between 1917 and 1939.    Your information about William and Eric R J Roberts would indicate that Robert and Elizabeth did live in the Conway Registration District after the marriage

The Street Index is helpful too and one person per household is listed in it alphabetically so it's easy to find where they lived at that time.   I was thinking of Eric R J Roberts and will look in the 1960's index to see if he is listed there.

I hope to go there tomorrow all being well and will post any findings on here

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 13, 2018, 05:00:01 am
Hi Hugo
 Not that it helps us alot but Eric Roberts born 6 Sept; 1931 died in Bangor Jan 2000
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 13, 2018, 04:26:32 pm
Thanks Jeff for telling me about Eric Roberts who died in Bangor in 2000

I've been to the Archives again and drawn a complete blank but these are the records I looked at:-

Llandudno Parish Baptism record  1894 to 1908     no trace
      "           "          "          "        1917 to 1933    no trace
St Mary's Church in Trefriw  Marriage Register        no trace
 
Now there are a number of reasons why I have had no luck tracing Robert and Elizabeth such as they never lived in Llandudno during their marriage or the children were Baptised in a Chapel and those records are unfortunately not available.

The births of the children were registered in the Conway Registration District but that District covers many towns, villages and Parishes but unless you have any address it's like looking for a needle in a haystack and at the moment there is nothing more I can do to help.

You have obviously done lots of research on the family and you are hoping to find living relatives of the Roberts family.  From what you have said already I assume that the family has more connection with Gwynedd than Conwy.     What I would do if I was you would be to concentrate on Eric R J Roberts and you might get some clues from the newspapers at the time.
The newspapers would be the North Wales Chronicle based in Bangor, the North Wales edition of the Daily Post or possibly the North Wales Weekly News
The Crematorium at Bangor have been very helpful to me in the past when I've been searching for graves in that area and the link to their website is   https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Births-marriages-deaths/Deaths-cemeteries-crematorium/Crematorium-and-cemeteries.aspx (https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Births-marriages-deaths/Deaths-cemeteries-crematorium/Crematorium-and-cemeteries.aspx)

The Archive dealing with that area is  the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon but if you come up with an address in the Conwy area then please post it on here.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 14, 2018, 02:07:44 am
Thank's Hugo
 For all the time and effort you have put in.
I will send away for the marriage of Robert and Elizabeth 1917 and try and make the point that the father of Robert was Hugh so not to get back the wrong one.
The way I am thinking that cert; should tell me where she was living at that time and his address.
 Will get back hopefully when it come's
 Thank's again all the best
    Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 14, 2018, 07:22:32 am
It can be so frustrating looking for records but I am surprised that there was no Baptism records in Llandudno for Katie and Robert as the Baptisms were carried out in most cases and were soon after the birth of the child.

You might never be able to find out why the children were put into care as they had a number of Uncles and Aunts on both sides and in those days families took care of things like that.     Just as a matter of interest you have seen the Census for 1891 and I was wondering where Hugh and Catherine and Catherine's father were born as sometimes it gives you an idea of their background

If you do find out any address in the Conwy County area then I'll gladly have a look at any records at the Archives
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 14, 2018, 09:43:54 am
 Hugh father was Robert born abt 1839 in Llangefni and Kate's was William born 1826 in Great Ness. On the 1891 census they are on the same page William living at Pembroke Villas and Robert living at  Belle- Vue villas Gloddeath St.   Both fathers death are hard to be certain Robert died abt 1900 Conway and William Jones died in the june  quarter of 1908 Carnarvon
 On the 1901 census   William and his wife Elizabeth (nee Vaughan) where living at 17 Council St civil parish of Eglwys Rhos
 Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 15, 2018, 04:41:09 pm
Thanks Jeff for that info, does the 1991 Census show where Hugh and Kate were born as it may be helpful to identify where Robert was living prior to going to Caernarfon?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 16, 2018, 12:15:47 am
 The 1891 census have Hugh born in Llangefni, Anglesey but I was given 15 Oct 1867 in Tyntwca, Llangristiolus with Kate 21 Jan 1868 Bell Mont Bangor same as the census.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 16, 2018, 12:06:39 pm
Thanks Jeff for that latest info but it doesn't give any clues as to exactly where Robert's children were born in the Conwy Registration District.

It does however give a strong connection to Anglesey and Gwynedd.      Llangefni is a town in Anglesey but it is also a Parish and Llangristiolus which isn't that far from Llangefni and could be in the Parish of Llangefni so they could both be correct and it's the same place.

I'm only guessing here but Eric who you think lived in Caernarfon and died in Bangor in 2000 may have still lived in Caernarfon but died in the big base hospital at Bangor,   Ysbyty Gwynedd as it's called.

I still think that your best bet if you want to contact present day relatives is to find the obituary notice in the paper as it may have an address and names of relatives but it will have the name of the Funeral Director who will know for certain the address of the deceased.
Another source as I've mentioned before is the Bangor Crematorium and I've found them to be very helpful indeed.
Good luck with your searching and I hope that you can find the answers that you are looking for but please let us know how you get on
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 16, 2018, 03:18:14 pm
I was looking for Tyntwca Llangristiolus on Google and came across this item but I think that you have already seen it but just in case you haven't  I've posted the link below



https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=seorecords&gsfn=Ellen&gsln=Roberts&msbdy=1884&msbpn__ftp=Madison%2C+Florida%2C+USA&msddy=1900&msdpn__ftp=Johns+Island%2C+Indian+River%2C+Florida%2C+USA&cpxt=0&catBucket=p&uidh=000&cp=0
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 17, 2018, 12:40:35 am
Which Ellen am I looking at?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 17, 2018, 12:51:27 am
Just looking at deaths Hugo there is a death of a Robert Roberts born abt 1893 died in Bangor March quarter 1960 age 67 8a 318, but the same story lots of Robert Roberts born around that time.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2018, 12:24:03 pm
Which Ellen am I looking at?

Sorry Jeff but I don't know.  I was just dabbling on Google and put Tyntwca in as I was wondering if the property was still there but noticed that link on Ancestry and thought that you might be interested in it.
However when I had another search for the property I saw that you were already aware of it by your posts in Roots Chat.

It's difficult trying to trace people when they had names like Ellen and Robert and can appreciate how much time that you have spent looking for them.     If there are any Baptism records in the Conwy Registration District then it will only give you the names of the children and may not help in your search for the present day family members.

You have a place and date of death for Eric Roberts and would suggest that you phone the Bangor Crematorium and explain the situation to them and if they don't have the records then they will point you in the right direction.

By the way, have you done one of those DNA tests that they do on Ancestry or My Heritage?     I did one last year and put all the people in that I definitely know as being related to me and you'd be surprised at what turns up and people getting in touch.   
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2018, 01:11:13 pm
I was curious about the Welsh word twca as I can't remember what it meant and used Google to find it and this link came up.
The literal translation of Tyn Twca is   Tyddyn = smallholding   Twca = knife but obviously it had a more definite meaning in those old days



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duN1V-78Z0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duN1V-78Z0Q)
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 17, 2018, 02:29:51 pm
Hi Hugo
 I have sent an e-mail of to Bangor Crematorium to see if they can help me with Robert died 1960 and his son Eric 2000. With the DNA I most be one of those people that are very sceptical about  the test  . I do not like the idea that some one else is holding my DNA  in this era of personal information getting pass on the third parties . Friends have done it they only got back they are from area's of British Islands
   Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2018, 03:21:30 pm
That's not so in my case Jeff.  I only did the DNA as I wanted to know where my ancestors came from.   In my case about  76 per cent is from Celtic background but I have Scandinavian and Italian ancestry with a smidge of Turkish/Iranian thrown in.

My DNA is held in Houston Texas and I've had numerous additions to my tree from all over the world, all of which are authentic and I have had numerous requests to correspond with them but declined each one as I'm only concerned with my immediate line.

I hope that you have a positive result with your e-mail but please let us know the result on here.     I'm completely stuck on a photo I have and think that it was my late father's brother but no one can help me and it's so frustrating.  If only I asked my father who it was or he put the name of the person on it but obviously it's too late now.
I have even sent copies of the photo to friends and just asked them to guess at the age of the person in the photo and roughly when it was taken just so that I could see if their opinion agreed with mine.   The family resemblance is uncanny and one friend even thought that it was me but I need the confirmation from someone.   DNA evidence could help, but what will be will be
 
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 20, 2018, 01:56:41 am
Hi Hugo
  I have did a reply from Bangor Crematorium they do have both Roberts death records but have ask for more information, I can not supply any thing past 1939. Is there any News paper  archives that are online that I may get more  up to date information.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 20, 2018, 12:17:39 pm
Hi Hugo
  I have did a reply from Bangor Crematorium they do have both Roberts death records but have ask for more information, I can not supply any thing past 1939. Is there any News paper  archives that are online that I may get more  up to date information.

I don't know if the papers are online but the most likely ones are Daily Post (North Wales)    North Wales Chronicle and the Caernarfon and  Denbigh Herald but what information does Bangor Crem want?

If the papers are not online try the Gwynedd Archives and tell them exactly what you are looking for and they may be able to help.  There is normally a small charch for it but they do use their staff who can access the records easily.    In Conwy Archives they have the actual papers there and you can browse through them yourself but these papers are only the ones for Conwy County and you need the Gwynedd ones.

https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Libraries-and-archives/Archives-and-family-history/Archives-and-family-history.aspx (https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Libraries-and-archives/Archives-and-family-history/Archives-and-family-history.aspx)
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on June 20, 2018, 03:04:41 pm
   they are looking for ------Do you have any further information i.e. his address or who would have registered the death, did he have any other children other than Eric?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 20, 2018, 06:49:00 pm
   they are looking for ------Do you have any further information i.e. his address or who would have registered the death, did he have any other children other than Eric?

That's strange Jeff but I wonder why they have asked that if they have already found the two people you are searching for?   Do you think that it's worth a phone call to the Crem?
Obviously there is no way that you have that information and the only way you can get it now is to hope that the obituary was put in one of those newspapers I mentioned
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 04, 2018, 01:32:44 am
Hi Hugo-------Back to square one ,received marriage cert today wrong Robert Roberts 48 year old widower plus have not had any more reply's from Crem so there is no more added information I can give them. I still think there is a fair chance the family on the 1939 register are what I am looking for, it is no good sending away for William birth cert; it will not help

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 04, 2018, 09:29:27 am
That happens sometimes Jeff and it's so frustrating.   I haven't been to the Archives for a while because of this glorious weather but I was thinking about this yesterday.
There were only two Robert Roberts' born in 1893 in the Conwy Registration District so one of them is definitely your relative.  I'll have a think about this later today but must go now as I've a game of golf this morning.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 05, 2018, 12:43:52 pm
Jeff,  I've looked through all the posts and although you have a Census record in 1911 for Ethel Kate  I haven't spotted one for Robert.  In 1901 Robert was in the boy's home in Colwyn Bay  but by the 1911  Census he would be nearly 18.
At that age you would expect him to be working and perhaps in lodgings somewhere.

There are just a few questions I would like to ask about Robert:-
Have you found him in the 1911 Census?
Did your Grandmother have any contact with him in their adult life ans was it her that told you about Robert marrying Elizabeth and their children or did you find those details from the 1939 Register?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 05, 2018, 02:49:07 pm
 No I have never found him in 1911, All but two of the Robert Roberts born around that time are sons to the head of the house .there are only two others ( I do not have the 1911) but from memory one is a farm worker and the other is a nephew to the head of the house, I could not find that head of the house in my tree. As my grandmother by 1911 was living in the uk Robert may moved there. If my father knew he never told me and my grandmother never got on with my mam so I hardly ever went there . At the back of my mind I think I heard my fathers sister may have look them up one time . Will send an email to my cousin in Blackpool if he knows more but when I write about family history he never answers. With Robert and Elizabeth I just think that the Robert born in the Jan; quarter 1893 and the date of birth on the 1939 as 12 Nov; 1893 is just to much of a coincidence
Sorry I am not much help if you think it help I can send away for the birth of Robert jan;quarter 1893
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 05, 2018, 04:14:40 pm
Jeff, don't send off for any more certificates until you know that you have the correct person because it's so expensive.   It's hard to tell what is fact and what is not but the answer is out there somewhere.

With regards to Robert & Elizabeth do you mean the Dec quarter for 1893 because that would fit in with the birthday on 12th Nov 1993?
There were only two Robert Roberts' whose birth was registered in the Conwy District in 1993 so one of those is definitely your relative

I'll have another visit to the Archives asap but I don't know when that will be, but in the meantime I'll think about the records that will be most helpful in your search
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: PhilMick on July 05, 2018, 05:32:00 pm
Hugo & Jeff - has anything come up on Ancestry Family trees?

Phil
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 05, 2018, 06:50:05 pm
I haven't looked at that Phil as I've left it to Jeff.      It's good to have tips like that as sometimes you can over look the obvious
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 06, 2018, 12:09:33 am

Phil--- There are just so many  Robert Roberts born around that time it is hard to pick one out.
 Yes Hugo Dec quarter 1893
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 06, 2018, 10:52:18 pm
Jeff,  do you know where Ethel Katie Roberts was born?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 06, 2018, 11:48:48 pm
 Yes ---1 Pembroke Villa, New Street, Llandudno, the New part is hard to read
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 06, 2018, 11:53:32 pm
Hello If any one has Robert Roberts born 1869 father Robert  occ tailor widower and Elizabeth Jones born 1867 father John Jones married 1917 I have there marriage cert; if any one wants it
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 07, 2018, 07:26:00 am
Yes ---1 Pembroke Villa, New Street, Llandudno, the New part is hard to read

Thanks Jeff, the reason I asked that was because I had been looking at a 1911 Census and there was a Robert Roberts there who was a possibility apart from a couple of things, one being that he was born in Llangystenin and not Llandudno.    Back to square one again!

The 1911 Census was carried out on 2nd April 1911 so Robert would have been 17 then
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 07, 2018, 02:39:03 pm
I don't subscribe to anything so I go to the Archives when I want to see Census records.   However I can get some info free but the vital bits you have to pay for.
Having said that I put the information that we know about Robert in and there were only two Roberts out of 66 that matched in the 1911 Census, both were in the Conway Registration District
Have you had a copy of Robert's birth certificate or know for certain where he was born?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 08, 2018, 12:59:21 am
No I have not, but will order one over the week end, but it will take at least 2 weeks to come. Ancestry is free this week will have a look to see if any one has him in there tree
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 08, 2018, 07:43:54 am
Just having a look at the 1911 census for Robert the Robert that is living with Wm and Mary Ann Roberts is down as nephew but if you go back 10 years he is now a son to head of the house
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2018, 11:16:51 am
No I have not, but will order one over the week end, but it will take at least 2 weeks to come. Ancestry is free this week will have a look to see if any one has him in there tree

I did have a look at the link that is free this weekend but as per usual if you want to see the full Census details you have to subscribe to it.
I looked at quite a few records and I think that the system is flawed as it has the ages of everyone I looked at  born in 1893 as 18 in the 1911 Census.
The Census was carried out on 2nd April 1911 so the law of averages would say that 75 per cent of the people on the Census should be only 17
I'll wait until I go to the Archives to see the full picture and by the way Jeff there is a PDF of the birth certificate available for about £6.00
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 08, 2018, 01:00:46 pm
I have ordered the birth cert;

 Below is the entry on the 1939 register. I had it wrong with the marriage cert; BDM  records show the mothers name was Williams. On the same site marriage Sept; 1918 Roberts Robert --first name of the lady is  not shown ?       Williams    Conway    11b   762 What I am tring to say when you look who else was married that day one name is missing
Robert Roberts 12 Nov 1893
This record is officially closed.
Elizabeth Roberts 6 Dec 1898
This record is officially closed.
William Roberts 4 Aug 1925  from the bdm site   Roberts    William J    Williams    Conway    11b   745
Eric Roberts 6 Sep 1931Caernarvon, Caernarvonshire,       from the bdm site Roberts    Eric    Williams    Conway    11b   672

Hope you can understand all that ------- Would it be worth while and send for one of the children's birth cert,?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2018, 01:17:26 pm
Jeff, at the moment I wouldn't send away for any certificates until you are absolutely certain that you have the right person,    It's frustrating but costly if you get the wrong ones too.   
If you are correct with Robert Roberts then he left the area sometime between 1925 and 1931 so there could be records like Baptism ones in the Conwy Archives but it means searching around and hoping for some luck.
I've an idea and will follow it up when I go to the Archives
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2018, 06:06:29 pm
Jeff,  I was at the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the Baptism records for Llangystennin and St Paul's Church Craig Y Don and there were no entries there for your Roberts family.
I have now looked at all the Baptism records for Llandudno and the nearby towns of Deganwy, Llandudno Junction and Llanrhos and found nothing at all which is strange.

I then tried the Wales Census records for 1911 and put the criteria of birth 1893 and Llandudno as place of birth but again nothing turned up for your Robert
I then tried the England Census for 1911 using the same criteria and again nothing turned up

So in effect I've just come up against a brick wall and will have to give up on this unless something else comes up

One coincidence came up in the 1911 England Census and that there was a Robert Roberts born in 1893 and his birthplace was Great Ness.   That's where William, Catherine's father was born.    Sorry that I couldn't find out anything for you
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2018, 06:32:57 pm
By the way in the England 1911 Census Robert Roberts born 1893 in Great Ness was living in Blackpool and working as a groom
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 09, 2018, 11:59:53 pm
Thank you Hugo
 For all your time and effort, hopefully sometime may turn up
 All the best
       Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 10, 2018, 02:12:26 am
 Just to make certain there is a Robert at ALL----- on the 1901 census Ethel Roberts says she is born in Llandudno  1890, but the Robert Roberts on that census form gives his age as 9 so born 1892 and all so gives birth place as Conwy  Carnarvon do not know if that makes a difference or not, but there is a Robert Roberts born Dec; quarter 1902 for Conway. With the PDF beaning the cheapest way to go I will send for that as well
 Got to get to the bottom of this
 THANK'S  again for all your help will let you know of the out come
 Regards Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 10, 2018, 08:21:03 am
It is easy to get carried away when you are researching but you just have to take your time and think a bit about it.
The Robert Roberts b1902 cannot be your relative because the parents died both in 1896.

Census records are good but not 100 per cent correct either as someone copies the info on the forms and there can be a mistake in the age or year etc mainly because of handwriting.   

I'll have a think about the 1892 year as I put in 1893 in my Census search and will let you know if anything turns up
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 10, 2018, 08:47:48 am
Got the wrong date 1892 ,to much haste
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 10, 2018, 03:59:13 pm
Jeff,  as the 1911 Census was carried out on the 2nd April 1911 wouldn't someone be 9 if they were born between the 3rd April 1891 and the 1st April 1892?
This could mean that the years you should be looking at are 1891 and 1892 but please check my figures as I could be wrong
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 11, 2018, 12:31:47 am
Hi Hugo Ethel was born 29 Jun 1891 unless Robert came early you would be looking at the end of March 1892
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 11, 2018, 07:49:21 am
Hi Jeff, that would be quick by anyone's standards, exactly nine months later.   As I've said before, the Census records are a good guide but not 100 per cent correct
I'm out all day today but will post some more tomorrow, I've just seen that Ethel Katie's birth was registered in the Conway Registration District in September 1891
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 13, 2018, 12:33:36 am
Hi Hugo
 The 1893 Robert came not the correct one
 Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 13, 2018, 06:32:03 pm
I'm sorry to hear that Jeff because apart from the money side it's frustrating when you've put in so much work into tracing Robert.
I've looked under the Free BMD records and there are several there registered between 1891 and 1896 at Conwy Registration District.    Great Ness was under the Ellesmere Registration District at that time and there was only a Robert Lewis Roberts registered there in the 1890's and his registration was in the September quarter of 1892 but I've no reason whatsoever to think that he is your Robert.
Until you have more evidence about Robert I wouldn't apply for any more Certificates.

Jeff I've just thought of an idea but it's up to you if you want to do it.    The Registry for Births Marriages and Deaths for Conwy Council is in the Town Hall in Lloyd Street.     They have the records of births for the 1890's.    There is a very nice and extremely helpful lady working there called Glenys who has helped me out previously.
If you phone  on 01492 576525  or  01492 576526 and ask for Glenys and tell her the details you know (parents dates etc ) and that you are searching for Roberts birth certificate and have made a number of wrong applications for the certificate and perhaps she can find it for you.   It's certainly worth a try.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 16, 2018, 09:47:14 am
Hi Hugo I phone Glanys she is willing to try if I e-mail her. I did not catch her e-mail address would you have it please---will keep on looking for it
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 16, 2018, 10:32:59 am
Hi Jeff,   I spoke to Rhian at the Town Hall just now and she advised me that you had been on the phone to her and that she was looking in to it.
She was very helpful and understood the position and will look into it as soon as she has the time.
Her e-mail address is rhian.harris3@conwy,gov.uk

She said that you are from Tasmania so no wonder you can't see the actual records at the Archives.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 16, 2018, 12:46:55 pm
Just sent it fingers crossed
  Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 16, 2018, 02:14:05 pm
Hooray
 Glenys has found him Robert William Roberts born 26 Oct 1892 :)
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 16, 2018, 03:09:36 pm
That's really good news Jeff so now you have a full name of Robert and his exact date of birth so let's hope that it'll help with searching for him in later years
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 16, 2018, 11:53:03 pm
Thank you Hugo
 For all your help and patience------- I will have to amend the heading of this section to Robert William Roberts born 1892 Llandudno
 Cheers
    Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2018, 09:08:35 am
You are very welcome Jeff and now there are some definite facts to work from.   By the way what address was recorded on the Birth Certificate?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 17, 2018, 10:01:22 am
They had moved to Wyddfyd Terrace that was the place where his parents had been living at there deaths. I never considered him having a middle name most have been name after his mother's father William Jones
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2018, 04:31:33 pm
Thanks Jeff,  so this confirms the grave I found for Hugh and Catherine at St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme Llandudno.
What we now know for certain is Robert's full name, his date of birth and place of birth.   He was born in Llandudno and within the Parish of Llandudno which was in the county of Caernarfonshire so it gives a good start in the search for him in later years.
Death records after I think 1969 also show the date of birth but I haven't been able to find a record for him after 1969 but will look again in the Archives whenever I next go there.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 17, 2018, 11:47:48 pm
Hugo ---At this moment I am going with the 1911 census that has Robert is working on a farm in
 County/Island:   Denbighshire
Country:   Wales
Street address:   Caeforys Eglwysbach Talycafn
Marital Status:   Sengl (Single)
Occupation:   Porthwr Gwartheg
Registration district:   Llanrwst
 but like you I am having no luck with the 1939 register. If you are not black out of the reg;  it will show your date of birth but nothing. I thought Robert Roberts was common name but Robert William is just as bad. It is remarkable how many Robert's or Robert William's where born around that time
With the grave of Hugh and Kate I was sent what is written on the grave stone will have to go and look for it
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 18, 2018, 12:49:13 am
Hugo
 
IThe only likely memorial inscription in the list I have is the following:
G174.
Er cof am Hugh Roberts, Wyddfyd Terrace, Llandudno yr hwn a fu farw Ionawr 14 1896 yn 28 mylwydd oed.  Hefyd ei briod Catherine Roberts yr hwn a fu farw Ebrill 1896 yn 28 mylwydd oed.
 
Translation:  In memory of Hugh Roberts, Wyddfyd Terrace, Llandudno who died January 14 1896 aged 28.  Also his wife Catherine Roberts who died Aprill 1896 aged 28

What is interesting is that Kate Roberts was buried as Catherine, her birth and death cert, give her her as Kate makes you think no one from the family had any in put to the inscription
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 18, 2018, 02:04:57 am

Add Alternative Information
Report issue
Name:   Robert Roberts
Gender:   Male
Marital Status:   Single
Birth Date:   25 Oct 1892
Residence Year:   1939
Address:   Ty Newydd Barrog
Residence Place:   Aled, Denbighshire, Wales
Occupation:   Carter on Farm
Schedule Number:   5
Sub Schedule Number:   2
Enumeration District:   ZKAL
Registration district:   623/1
Household Members:                   This would seem to be correct it is only out by one day, what do you think?
Name
Richard Roberts
Robert Roberts
Elizabeth Roberts
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 18, 2018, 06:16:56 pm
Jeff, a lot of records are not always factually correct as the spelling on the original forms may have been read incorrectly due to bad handwriting.
Take for example Barrog and although I am from North Wales I have never heard this name.   I have however heard of Carrog which is in that locality but perhaps some other forum members may have heard of Barrog.
Likewise with the figures 25 and 26 bad handwriting may account for the date but without doing some searches myself at the Archives then I can't make an educated guess as to whether this is your Robert or not
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Cambrian on July 18, 2018, 09:23:33 pm
Yes.  Its a name used in the Llansannan and Llanfair TH area.  Relates to the Afon Barrog and a common of the same name.
Ty Newydd Barrog was in Llanfair TH.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 18, 2018, 11:02:15 pm
Thanks for putting that right Cambrian, I've learned something new there     
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 19, 2018, 09:44:59 am
Just an add on to my last posting, because Ty Newydd Barrog wasn't an all Welsh name I read it as
Ty Newydd
Barrog
but I had Googled Barrog first and discovered that it was Irish Gaelic.      I can now see that it's in a remote place in the hills above Llanfair TH but I wonder if the original occupiers of the property were Welsh with some Irish influence?

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 19, 2018, 12:00:22 pm
 I do not think I have the correct Robert on the 1939 register has Robert Roberts living at Ty Newydd Barrog with a Richard Roberts, on the 1911 census living at Ty Newydr Llanfair Talhaiarn Robert and Richard Roberts
 1911 census Robert w Roberts is living at Caeforys Eglwysbach Talycafn
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 19, 2018, 07:51:04 pm
Jeff, I had a look on Find my past for the 1911 Census and there were only 20 Robert Roberts recorded as being born in 1892. 
Of these only two were Robert William and the most probable one was in Capel Garmon  which was in Denbighshire and the Registration District was Llanrwst Rural
Now you say that you have found a Robert W living in Eglwysbach does the Census records show where that Robert W was born?
I can't view the actual Census records until I go to the Archives so I can't comment until I've seen the records in full
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 19, 2018, 11:25:30 pm

View Record   Name   Parent or spouse names   Birth Year   Birth Place   Relation   Residence   View Image
View Record
Robert W Roberts
abt 1892   Llandudno, Caernarvonshire, Wales   Gwas (Servant)   Eglwys Fach, Denbighshire   
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 26, 2018, 06:11:43 pm
Hi Jeff,  I went to the Archives today and had a look at the following:-
 
The location of the grave of Hugh and Catherine at plot G 174 in St Tudno’s Church on the Great Orme
 
The Burial Indexes for Llandudno & district and Eglwysbach but couldn’t find a grave for  a Robert William Roberts.   These indexes only cover graves with headstones in the Church’s cemetery
 
I had free access to the 1911 Census records but couldn’t locate your Robert William Roberts.   He must be on the Census but perhaps under the name Robert Roberts which will make it harder to find unless you already have him as the one in Eglwysbach.
 
One thing I did find was the school register for Robert William Roberts and he went to the National School of St George for infants.   It is located in Church Walks and that is the school that Ethel would have gone to.  I looked at the Register and this is the info on it:-
No 633 Roberts Robert William  admission to school 8/5/96 born 26/10/96  no name was entered for parent or guardian address was Wyddfyd   and no date was recorded for withdrawal from school
 
No 622  Roberts Ethel  date of admission 13/4/96   born 20/7/91  no name for parent or guardian address was Penyffridd   date of withdrawal from school 9/10/96
 
Although Ethel Roberts’ date of birth disagrees with the date you posted on the forum I can only assume that she is your Grandmother.   Now this is strange because their parents were both dead by April 1896 and from the information I have gathered I’m assuming that the children were split up with Robert living in Wyddfyd and Ether living in Penyffridd which is higher up the Great Orme.  Ethel left school but no explanation was given for it but Robert was still in school then, so another mystery there.
 
I then went up the Great Orme to St Tudno’s Church and located Hugh and Catherines grave.    The headstone in fact is a flat piece of slate only about a foot square and was upright on the grave, to give you a sense of proportion I have posted a photo of the next grave to it.
Just so you have a bit more for your records I have posted photos of St Tudno’s  Church,  Penyffridd where Ethel was and Wyddfyd Terrace where Hugh and Catherine and the family lived and the National school that Robert and Ethel went to.    I’ve included a photo of the tram that goes to the top of the Great Orme and I took it from very near Wyddfyd Terrace so you can see the lovely views that the family would once have enjoyed
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 26, 2018, 06:17:59 pm
National School of St George
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 26, 2018, 11:56:42 pm
Thank you Hugo that is brillant will have to sit down and take that all in, still waiting for the birth cert; of Robert
 Have try to sent you the 1911 census but will not load it---how do I go about doing that?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 27, 2018, 05:46:06 am
I went back and had a look Hugh and Kate's brothers and sisters to see where they lived it may of help, there is a couple I can not find at all. The only one that comes close is Elizabeth Ellen Hedley nee Roberts would have been Hugh sister . In 1911 census Kate was living in Openshaw Lancashire and Elizabeth was living in Salforth 40 mins up the road.
 Looking at the dates you sent Ethel went into the home 13/4/96 16 days after her mother died and Robert 1 month later. With Robert's address both his grandparent where living in Wyddfyd Terace around that time. His grandparents on the Roberts side Robert Roberts I was told died of drink 1889 ,  Ann Roberts nee Jones  died 1897, grandparents on the Jones side William and Elizabeth Jones where living in Eglwys Rhos Llandudno, but for the 1901 census see Robert joining Ethel in the home.
  Going to try and get in contact with the lady that told me about Robert drinking
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 27, 2018, 08:03:12 am
Jeff, you're asking the wrong person for IT help to put something on here but there are loads of others who may be able to help you.
The records I was looking up were the National School of St George attendance Register.   It seems that Ethel and Robert did not go to school before their parents died but after the parents died the people looking after them put them in school.
It seems that Ethel was only in that school for about 6 months before she was taken out of it but no explanation was given for that.
After suffering the loss of both parents in 1896 it's a shame that they had to be parted from each other when they were so young
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on July 30, 2018, 03:47:38 am
Received the birth cert; Robert William Robert every thing as I hoped ,birth 26 Oct and reg; on the 15 Nov; 1892 living at Wyddfyd Terrance  Llandudno  , Kate Roberts formerly Jones and Hugh was a attendant at a Pavillion

 
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on July 30, 2018, 03:30:31 pm
Thanks for posting the details on here Jeff.      It's not going to be easy to trace what has happened to Robert as there is so little information known about him but you might have some luck on your search.
Some websites have different information to others and in any case it depends on what the operator has put into the system.
Take for instance Roots UK, I have looked for the death of a Robert William born 1892 and covered the years from 1910 to 2000 and their records only record the death of one person who matches those exact details and that Robert William Roberts death was registered in the quarter ended September 1974

However because I don't subscribe to Roots UK  that is as far as I was able to see but I'm not suggesting that this is your relative because other sites such as Ancestry may differ.
Robert may have served in the forces in World War 1 but I could not trace a death for him in either World Wars so there must be records of him out there that can give you the info, fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 02, 2018, 04:25:29 pm
Hi Jeff,   I was at the Archives again and had a look through their records but unfortunately turned up nothing for Robert Roberts.
I looked at the 1896 copy of the local paper the Llandudno Advertiser but could see no obituary notice or anything about the family tragedy
I then looked at the 1939 register for England and Wales and could see no person with the matching date of birth of Robert, the nearest match was the one that you had already found at Ty Newydd Barrog.
I rechecked the burial records for St Tudno's Church but there was no record for Robert there.   Those records are for the Church Cemetery only though.    There is a much larger cemetery there but it is Council owned and those records are I believe held at the Crematorium in Mochdre
I know for a fact from Billion dollar graves that there are a number of Robert Roberts buried there in the new Cemetery at St Tudno's but don't know if the details match your Robert.
One I was looking at on Billion Dollar graves was a Robert William Roberts who died in 1975 but his wife Winifred Catherine died much earlier in 1932. Unfortunately his age was not put on the headstone so I don't know any more details other than that.
When I looked at records from Find My Past there was a Robert Roberts born 1892 who died in 1961 and the death was registered in the Conwy District at  vol 8a  pg 167 death quarter 1
The records also showed marriages of a Robert W Roberts in the Conwy District in 1915,1917, 1922, 1923 and 1924 but again there is no evidence to say that anyone of them was your relative.
However local papers like the Llandudno Advertiser and North Wales Weekly News reort marriages and obituaries and may be able to confirm things one way or another

Before I start to look in the papers I would appreciate it if you could tell me what you know for certain about Robert, wife children etc just so that I have something positive to work with
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2018, 06:04:19 am
Hi Hugh I look at Billion Dollar graves and like you found Robert William Roberts died 1975 with wife Winfred Catherine died 1932 on the report it had 8 Clonmei Street and a Dilys Mary Roberts died 18 nov 1977 ( may be child or may be new wife). With Robert W Roberts  born 26 Oct 1892 to Hugh Roberts and Kate Jones all living at Wyddfyd Terrace Llandudno 1901 census in a Boys Home 1911 census what I believe to be him at Street address:   Caeforys Eglwysbach Talycafn, Martial Status single Occ; Porthwr Gwartheg (I have tried a couple of times to send you the 1911 census but will not go through)

I was thinking about the whole family of Hugh and Kate they are both from big families so what if there was one more child. Robert W born oct 1892 and Kate died April 1896 so about three years in between ,I  looked on the FreeBDM site and there is Catherine Roberts born June quarter 1895 Conway 11b 497. On the 1901 census she is in the Conway Union Workhouse as a pauper.
 May be just looking for some one to fit but first name Catherine was given to Kate and in 1901 being a pauper.
 Do you think it would be cheeky of me to send an email to Rhian and ask if she would have a look to see if it matches
 Will wait for a reply from you before I go a head
.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 03, 2018, 07:05:00 am
There was a Dilys Mary Jones married a Robert W Roberts dec 1947 in Pwllheli-- I had a look for a birth of Dilys M Jones, you would not believe how many there is.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 03, 2018, 10:09:42 am
Jeff, first of all I wouldn't trouble Rhian about something that you have no evidence about.    Rhian and Glenys are both extremely helpful and you may need their assistance in the future once you have something positive to give them.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Robert William Roberts from 8 Clonmel St is your relative, the coincidence is just in his name. Catherine listed on the headstone is his daughter.

I was hoping that the local papers of the time may throw up something that could link up to your relative but it may take time to search the papers and I don't think that they are online so it means a trip to the Archives when I can

 
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2018, 07:14:54 pm
I have been checking the BMD records for Robert William Roberts and in particular the one who lived at 8 Clonmel Street Llandudno and who died on 2nd September 1975.
The Death records after 1969 show the date of birth of the deceased and that Robert's records in the September quarter of the Aberconwy District show that Robert was born on 20th July 1885 so you can rule him out of your research.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 08, 2018, 11:25:48 pm
 Yes I agree about that Robert I found a probate notice on the death of his wife and it gives his occ; as joiner and there is Robert William Roberts joiner on the 1939 register born 1885. My problem is there seems to be nothing that  I can do this end have check most of the paying site with possibility but nothing concrete.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2018, 07:52:45 am
Jeff, it does seem that your search has hit an impasse because of the circumstances and also the popular name.
There is one Robert Roberts I want to eliminate but I need to go to the Archives and hope that there is an obituary notice in the local paper for him.   That Robert Roberts was born 1892 and died in the 1st quarter of 1961 in the Conwy Valley District.
I'll post anything I find on here next week.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 09, 2018, 08:33:28 am
Is this the Robert Roberts of 7 Jubilee Street Llandudno died 3 Feb; 1961 Probate Bangor 18 May 1961 to Charles Thomas Davis Neal local government official
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2018, 09:50:47 am
If it is Jeff then it's not your Robert as we have done research on the forum for that Roberts family.
I'm dashing off for a game of golf so I'll check later, but thanks for that info
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2018, 06:53:26 pm
Jeff,   I've had a look at my notes and rechecked the BMD for all Robert Roberts whose death was registered in the Conwy District and cannot find one that fits your relative.
The Roberts at 7 Jubilee Street is from a different family so I don't need to go to the Archives now as I know that he's not your relative

The nearest one in your search seems to be the one from Ty Newydd Barrog in the 1939 Register but I've checked the original record and the date of 25th October 1892 is quite clear.
However that record has been copied from another original record and if the handwriting is bad then the 26th may easily have been taken for the 25th but that is pure speculation on my part and the truth may never be known.   I've no idea either if or where those original records completed by each household are.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2018, 07:11:37 pm
I've just gone through the Death records of Roots UK for all the Robert William Roberts who have died in the last century and there is only one match for a Robert William Roberts born in 1892
That Robert William Roberts died in the September quarter of 1974.
I have no other details as I don't subscribe to it and I'm not 100 per cent convinced of the accuracy of those records so I will go to the Archives again to look at that one death
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 10, 2018, 12:55:51 am
 There is no probate on him
Robert William Roberts
Birth   
02/10/1889
Death   
12/1974 Carnarvon Caernarvonshire Wales
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 10, 2018, 07:34:16 am
 So more important information ---what is your golf handicap
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 10, 2018, 07:39:21 am
Thanks Jeff, so you've established that that Robert William is not your relative, so at the moment I've run out of ideas but if I can think of anything then I'll post it on here.


PS   My golfing handicap is just my clubs      ;D

A friend wanted to play golf so I brought my 40 year old clubs out of retirement and started playing weekly but it's just a bit of fun, nothing serious
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 21, 2018, 06:36:19 pm
Hi Jeff,   I've tried some options but because of the common name have got nowhere.

I've gone back to your original posting and you mention that Ethel Katie Roberts and Robert were both shown in the 1901 Census as being at Oakamore Boy's Home in Colwyn Bay

I've had a look again at the link supplied by Rhuddlan and read it again and it said that the home could accommodate up to 20 boys.   Now Ethel Katie Roberts,  you would think would not be living in a home for boys.   Rhuddlan's  link does show a family photo and mentions a Kate but that Kate is a woman and not a child
You said that you were not certain that the Robert Roberts was the one you are researching but is Ethel Katie there on the 1901 Census and is it possible for you to post the actual 1901 Census on here for me to look at?

The link does imply that the records for the home are not available so I can't follow that up at the Archives
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 22, 2018, 01:52:00 am
Hi Hugo Posted the 1901 census for Ethel and Robert . You will see that they are both inn the home,only reason that I could give would be Robert was so young and older an sister may help him. Looking at it again Ethel may be down as a domestic . The census doe's not give either child's middle names
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 22, 2018, 06:40:47 am
I believe this is Robert William Roberts  1911 I think it says nephew but have yet to work that out
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2018, 05:40:22 pm
Thanks very much for posting that Jeff.        I've spent a couple of hours at the Archives today looking unsuccessfully for an address for my ancestors in the 1841 Census as I was hoping to visit the village this year.
It's so frustrating and I had no luck in the 1841 and 1851 Census records but in 1861 they were living in Llandudno but I already knew that.    You've got my sympathy because I can see how much effort that you have put into tracing Robert.

While I was there I did find something and it fits in with your posting on 14th June 2018 but may raise more questions than answers.
What I found was that William Robert Roberts was admitted to the National School on the 24th June 1901.  His date of birth was given as 14th October 1892.    His guardian was Mary Jones and she lived at 17 Council Street Llandudno.    His last school was named as Conway N School
William Robert left the National School on the 26th July 1901 and the reason given was because he had left town

By the way I have copied the name down as it was recorded and double checked on the date of birth but neither match what you have found already but the address of 17 Council Street certainly does
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2018, 06:04:10 pm
With regard to the 1901 Census, it may well be your ancestors on the record, but Census records are not always correct and should be taken as a guide only.
For instance as the Census was taken early in 1901  Ethel would have been 9 and not 11 as stated in the Census, Robert would have been 8 and not 9 as stated in the Census.
Also Roberts' place of birth was given as Conway whereas we know that he was born in Llandudno.
Just minor differences but you have to bear that in mind
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 22, 2018, 11:21:13 pm
Hi Jeff,  I've just looked at the 1911 Census and had difficulty reading the handwriting but I'll translate it for you;-
Robert Roberts    Gwas   ( lad or servant)    Porth Gwartheg  (Cattle helper) 
So by that I presume that Robert was not related in any way to that Evans family and he would have been 18 at the date of the Census
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 23, 2018, 04:08:46 am
The address of 17 Council Street Llandudno was Kate's parents in 1901 and she did have a sister Mary Elizabeth Jones 5 years older and married George Fox around 1895 .  It is strange why the change in the first two names he was definitely born as Robert William. I am not on one of the payed sites at the moment, with the Mary the guardian would she still go by her maiden name because by 1895 she would be Fox
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2018, 11:12:11 am
It is a mystery and one I can't explain.     I think that I found that link on Find My Past and it's free to use in the Archives.   Because of the address, I thought that it's worth mentioning but can't explain why the name would be Mary Jones and not Mary Fox.
There are so many possibilities that it makes it difficult to understand.
Robert appears on the 1911 Census as living at Oakamore  Colwyn Bay
He must have left the home a couple of months after the Census date  and was living in 17 Council Street but left the town about a month later
The Guardian was named as Mary Jones but was Mary Jones or Mary Fox the real guardian or was that in name only and he lived with William and Elizabeth Jones?
You mention that William Jones died and was buried in Bangor in 1905 or 1906 so did Robert go to live with his Grandparents or did he live with Mary Fox.     It's a puzzle Jeff but it seems more than a coincidence so we'll have to see if this leads anywhere
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 23, 2018, 01:25:16 pm
 You believe this is our Robert----(-Robert appears on the 1911 Census as living at Oakamore  Colwyn Bay) I have the 1911 census for Mary Fox only husband and children living there . As I only have 1901 census for Robert's grandparents as the 4 off them died before next census .On the 1901 both sets of grandparents only live two doors apart and no Robert there.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 23, 2018, 02:05:00 pm
Thanks Jeff for that info.     I didn't expect Robert to be on the Census for 1901 at Council Street as he had already been accounted for in the Colwyn Bay home.
It's very strange that he was brought back to Llandudno, enrolled in a new school and then presumably placed back in the Oakamore Home in Colwyn Bay.
It must have been very upsetting for him with everything that was going on around the time.    That link that Rhuddlan supplied shows about 15 boys from the school and it was taken in 1901 and Robert could be in the photo but we'll never know which one is Robert

PS    I've just gone back to the link and towards the end it stated that due to financial reasons the Oakamore finally closed in 1906 so if that was the case there should not be a Census record for 1911.   Would you mind posting the Census record you have for 1911 on here and Robert would have been 18 by that time and in those days you would expect that he was working and living elsewhere

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 24, 2018, 07:17:08 am
Hi Hugo   I have tried all afternoon to find Robert W Roberts on Find my Past with out any luck so have posted the one of Ancestry.I found Mary Fox nee Jones on the 1901 census living in Stafford shire married with children, but 1900 they had a a child in Llandudno Dorothy that only lived for two years and died in Conway, went back for the 1901 census and came back 1902  to have another child Enda. Found the two entries for Ethel and Robert date of her birth is out by about a month. Robert's address Wyddfyd is his birth address, Ethel has Robert Roberts down on her entry that would be her grandfather  but has down an address of   ---Penyfrdd ?
 Got a head ache need a cup coffee
 All the best
       Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 24, 2018, 10:41:43 am
You believe this is our Robert----(-Robert appears on the 1911 Census as living at Oakamore  Colwyn Bay) I have the 1911 census for Mary Fox only husband and children living there . As I only have 1901 census for Robert's grandparents as the 4 off them died before next census .On the 1901 both sets of grandparents only live two doors apart and no Robert there.


I don't quite understand your comment regarding -"Robert appears on the 1911 Census as living at Oakamore  Colwyn Bay"     as Rhuddlan's link to the home said that due to financial reasons the home closed in 1906 so there should be no Census for 1911 at Oakamoor Home Colwyn Bay.
If you have a copy of that 1911 Census would you please post it on here so I can see it.   
If the Colwyn Bay home was closed in 1906 there is a possibility that Ethel and Robert were moved to another home and possibly in England but I'm only guessing until I see the Census record that I've highlighted above

It will be a week or more before I can get back to the Archives to have a look for anything

That address Penyfrdd is probably  Penyffridd and there is a terrace of houses on the Great Orme Llandudno bearing that name, in fact I posted a photo of both Penyffridd and Wyddfyd Terrace on here recently.     The information came off the school records and Ethel was at Penyffridd and  Robert at Wyddfyd
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 24, 2018, 01:57:52 pm
first part
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 24, 2018, 02:00:35 pm
 Second part, it will not let me send a complete form
 This statement was in your post couple of days ago------"Robert appears on the 1911 Census as living at Oakamore  Colwyn Bay"
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 24, 2018, 03:07:20 pm
Thanks for posting that 1911 Census again but the Robert W Roberts listed on the form shows the address as Caeforys   Eglwysbach but what I was hoping that you would post was the 1911 Census for Robert Roberts living at Oakamoor in Colwyn Bay.
If I've read Rhuddlan's link correctly  Oakamoor in Colwyn Bay closed in 1906 so therefore there shouldn't be a Census for the home in 1911 as it had been closed for 5 years.
Would you please clarify whether you have found a 1911 Census for Oakamoor or not?

 
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 24, 2018, 11:36:30 pm
Sorry hope this is the one
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 24, 2018, 11:38:29 pm
There are two boys on the 1911 census that are not sons of the house hold
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 25, 2018, 02:21:56 am
Found this in the local paper dated 2 Jan;  1903 may be of interest
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 25, 2018, 11:09:11 am
Thanks for posting those 3 items on here.    The first photo titled school is not the 1911 Census for Oakamoor and I don't expected there to be one either as the school closed in 1906
It is in a terrace of cottages situated on the Great Orme Llandudno and Tyn Y Coed Road is between Penyffridd and Wyddfyd.    The Robert Roberts shown on it does have the correct age and place of birth but that could be just a coincidence seeing that there are two other nephews living there with the surname Roberts
What does surprise me is that he is 18 and still in school, at that age most children would have left school unless they stayed on for further education which could fit in with what you have been told about him being a Don but that is just pure speculation on my part as there is no evidence to support that.

At the moment Jeff I'm stumped unless you have any evidence of Hugh Roberts having family on the Great Orme
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 25, 2018, 11:14:31 am
I'm posting this just to give you some information about Anglesey Villa and William James Roberts


https://llandudno-parish.org.uk/wordpress/extra/the-great-war/r/roberts-william-james
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 25, 2018, 01:38:30 pm
Jeff,  if you read about Wlliam James Roberts the nephew who died in the First World War you can see that his family lived in Pen y Ffridd on the Great Orme.
Now Ethel was staying somewhere in Pen Y Ffridd in 1896 but who would she be staying with other than a relative, perhaps they are related in some way?       Food for thought?
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on August 25, 2018, 11:39:29 pm
 Thank's Hugo
  What is the great Orme? a collection of towns or villages so I know want I am looking for,
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 26, 2018, 12:46:16 am
Jeff. the Great Orme is the headland you see when you look at Llandudno and in Welsh it is called Y Gogarth.     Up to about 1850  the village of Llandudno was based on the slopes of the great Orme but after that date it rapidly expanded and became the town that we know today.
The town of Llandudno was split into two parishes Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and then became Llandudno cum Eglwysrhos and the Parishes have changed names over the years,
You can often see words and names spelt differently but don't worry about that as these things happen quite a lot so don't put too much emphasis on the spelling of names
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 26, 2018, 11:24:47 am
This is a photo that I took from the Little Orme some time ago.     In 1851 the small village of Llandudno had a population of 1,131 and the people mainly lived on the headland which is called the Great Orme.
After that time the town rapidly developed on the flat land between the two Ormes
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on September 09, 2018, 01:35:01 pm
There is no probate on him
Robert William Roberts
Birth   
02/10/1889
Death   
12/1974 Carnarvon Caernarvonshire Wales

Jeff,  I was reading through the posts again and reread the above posting.    This was in response to my posting before:-
"I've just gone through the Death records of Roots UK for all the Robert William Roberts who have died in the last century and there is only one match for a Robert William Roberts born in 1892
That Robert William Roberts died in the September quarter of 1974
 
Now your reply cannot relate to the same person as you have his birth in 1889  and death in the quarter December 1974      so the year of birth and date of death are different.
I'll just check that out in the Archives next time I go there
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on September 09, 2018, 02:25:15 pm
I've cross checked it since and it doesn't match up to your Robert.      The Robert William Roberts who died in the September quarter of 1974 had his death registered in Petersfield but his birth was given as the 13th September 1892
Sorry about that Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2018, 08:24:59 am
Jeff, since 1969 the Death Register shows the date of birth for each person which is a good help.  However in all the Death Registers I have looked at there is no Robert Roberts or any variation of that name with the birth 26th Oct 1892 after 1969.
I then had a look at the Death Registers for 1949 to 1969 and there was over 400 recorded but only 13 of those were born in 1892.
Of the 13 who died only one had the death registered in the Conwy District and I know for a fact that he was not your relative.
So all the others had the death registered out of this area.

3 were registered in England and the other 10 were registered in various parts of North Wales.     One English one was interesting but only because of your very first post and that is the death of a Robert Roberts, born 1892 and died in 1958.   His death was registered in the 4th quarter ( Dec) of 1958 at Durham in South Shields
It would be ironic if after all your searching Robert was the one you were looking for and he lived in the same town as your Nain Ethel.

It has happened before and another forum member, also from Tasmania was looking for a relative from Llandudno and when I found the person he had lived in the same street as Jelly Baby the forum member
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2018, 04:25:24 pm
Jeff, I popped down to the Archives this afternoon to have a look at the Admission Register  for John Bright Grammar School for the years 1909 to 1912 to see if there was an entry for Robert Roberts who appeared in the 1911 Census and living at Anglesey Villa with William James Roberts who was head of the family and a plumber by trade
Robert Roberts was 18 in the Census but still at school so I would have expected him to be in the Register but  unfortunately he wasn't.   However William Roberts  b 6th Oct 1998 was in the Register and living at Anglesey Villa

I don't think that there are any other records available for me to look up locally so I can't do any more in this area but wish you good luck in your research and hope that you eventually find him.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on September 20, 2018, 11:23:20 pm
Thank you Hugo
 I am the same run out of ideas, cancelled my Ancestry and Find my past subscriptions if there is any information there I can not find it.
 Thank you for all your help
   Regards
       Jeff   
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2019, 04:54:28 am
Hugo found these two entries not much detail , would there be any way of finding Robert W would have been 22 at the time
cheers Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2019, 01:50:40 pm
Jeff,   I'm no expert on this but I've had a look on the Commonwealth War Graves site for WW 1

That tells me that the Able Seaman died on 29th Nov 1918 aged 21 so he is not your Robert

The other one I couldn't find on the  C W G  records so I had a look at the Rehobeth Methodist records and I can see a Robert W Roberts of Heatherdale  but that record appears to be of people who served in the WW1 not those that have died in the war,  Incidently on that record is a Wm. J. Roberts   of Penyffrith 

I then looked at the Llandudno Cenotaph and there is no record of a Robert W Roberts who died in WW1.
I did notice a William Roberts of 10 Tyn y coed Terrace who died in the war but whether he was a relation of Robert's then I've no idea

Sorry that I can't help you on this Jeff but there may be someone on the forum who can give you the info you want
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2019, 08:33:54 pm
Thank you ---one more dead stop
         cheers Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on March 24, 2019, 06:06:26 am
Hi Hugo Next couple of weeks I am going to rejoin Ancestry to see if any one from Hugh Roberts ( Ethel Kate and Robert William father) brothers or sister family can help me
Robert Roberts 1862-1982 married Ellin Owens they had Owen born 1882 Ellin E born 1885. Owen Roberts married Mary Elizabeth Jones 1910 Wrexham
In 1939 Robert was living in Merthyr Tydfil
David Roberts 1870 married Mary Morgan they had Dillwyn 1916 and Llewellyn 1920
1939 David was living in Ogmore and Garw;
Elizabeth Ellen Roberts 1865-1933 married Joseph Hedley 1895 Lanc; all they children where born lived in Lanc I have spoken to this side but can not help me;
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2019, 12:33:46 pm
Jeff,   I was hoping that there was someone on the forum from the Roberts family who may be able to help you as there was strong family ties with the Great Orme, but no one has come forward on that

As I've mentioned previously from the June quarter of 1969 the date of birth is put on the death records but I've put Robert William in to the search and there is no entry for your Robert so he may have died before 1969.

Good luck with your searches on Ancestry and I hope that you can find the answer to your search
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on March 24, 2019, 09:57:43 pm
Hugo Yes thats was my hope some one the site may have been a relative or have some more information, with Roberts being a strong local surname.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jack on March 25, 2019, 02:51:37 pm
The Llandudno Robert William Roberts survived the war and served in the South Wales Borderers.

The Bangor Robert William Roberts was the son of Hugh and Mary Ann Roberts of 20, Fair View Road.

William James Roberts of Penyffrith was one of eleven children, 7 sons and 4 daughters. His grandfather was one of the early copper miners and his grandmother, Betty, was one of the founders of the Methodist movement on the Orme when in 1878 a Sunday School was established in the kitchen of a two roomed cottage. His mother was from Bangor. William James served in the Royal Navy and died in July 1918 while serving aboard an RN Q-ship. His younger brother, John Elias died during WW2 and is buried on the Orme.

A nephew of William James Roberts (also called William James Roberts!) served with REME during WW2.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on March 25, 2019, 03:20:36 pm
Thanks very much for that info Jack,  it's a rather sad and tragic tale and it would be nice if Jeff gets the answers he is looking for

Robert William Roberts and his sister Ethel Kate were orphaned in 1896 when both their parents died.   After that the children were split up and Robert lived in Wyddfyd Terrace and Ethel Kate went to Penyffrith
As you know there is a large number of Roberts family members living on the Orme and someone must have heard stories about the tragic events of 1896 , I just home that someone can give Jeff the answers he is looking for

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 01, 2019, 05:11:24 am
Hello Hugo yes me back again--reading Jack's last post about a Robert William Roberts being in the South Wales Borderers. Had a quick look at Ancestry ( not subscribed so can not see information). There is a Robert William Roberts that served in the Monmouthshire Regiment Shropshire Infantry South Wales Borderers. Would this be in the area where Robert would be living at that time. Not getting my hopes up as we have found out there are two or three Robert William Roberts
Cheers Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2019, 12:24:47 pm
Hi Jeff,    I see that you haven't given up on finding your Robert William Roberts but it must be so frustrating for you.

I don't subscribe to any Ancestry site either and I'm afraid that I can't advise you on the matter as I don't know much about the military.
When I was looking for a relative of mine it cost about £30.00 to get their service records but if you were to get the wrong one then it can be a costly mistake.

I'm hoping that other forum members who know about the military may be able to advise you on this matter.  I hope that your efforts help you to find the right person and don't forget to post on here if you do get lucky
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Helig on December 02, 2019, 09:59:26 am
I have searched on Ancestry today and there are some Family Trees for Robert William Roberts on the site. I cannot be sure they are all for the same RWR as they are all Personal Member tree which means you cannot access them without permission of the person who has posted them. They are:

Butler Family Tree, Robert William Roberts, born 1892, Caernarfonshire.

Alderson/Barrett Family Tree, Robert William Roberts, born 1892 Llandudno.

Lelly/Coleman/Leahy/McCall Family Tree, Robert Roberts, born 1892 Caernarfonshire.

Niven Family tree, Robert Roberts, born 1892, Llandudno.

The most hopeful appears to be the second of these, the Alderson/Barrett tree. The others are possibles but you would need to access them to see for certain.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Helig on December 02, 2019, 11:43:32 am
Ancestry does have some details of Probate, or Administration, obtained for men by the name of Robert William Roberts.

Died on 23/08/1964, Robert William Roberts of Hillcrest, Griffiths Road, Coedpoeth, Bersham, Wrexham, Administration to Robert Roberts general builders foreman.

Died 19/10/1954, Robert William Roberts of Dunedin, of 6 Willoughby Road, Colwyn Bay, Probate to Jennie Roberts, widow.

Died 15/07/1943, Robert William Roberts of Carreglleon, Capel Garmon, Denbighshire, Administration to Hannah Roberts, widow and William Thomas Roberts, Farmer.

They don't show their ages when they died, or any date of birth.

The only thing that we can say for certain is that he would have died by now.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 02, 2019, 12:00:11 pm
 Hello Helig Thank you for the information hope, I can ask a favour on Ancestry in the first world war there is Robert William Roberts under British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920
AWARDS & DECORATIONS OF HONOR
View Image
Record information.
Name   
Robert William Roberts
There are 5-6 entries for either Robert William Roberts or Robert W Roberts. Is it possible to check to see if his birth day was 26 Oct 1892 in Llandudno.
 If that is correct I will join Ancestry and get the rest of the information
 Regard
       Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Meleri on December 02, 2019, 01:36:25 pm
Sorry Jeff but the records for Awards don't have the Date of Birth on them.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2019, 03:25:55 pm
The death indexes after 1969 actually have the date of birth on them, however I had a search at the Library today and I've also done it in the past but could not find a match for your Robert

I also tried the death index for 1968 and prior but the only ones that came up were in the name of Robert W Roberts and there were no good matches apart from one that caught my eye
There is no evidence whatsoever to link it with your relative but you did mention in one of your earlier postings that Robert's sister got married and moved to Durham.

The one I saw was a death in Hartlepool which isn't that far from Durham, anyway the details are:-
Robert W Roberts   aged 75  the death was registered in the December quarter at Hartlepool   Vol1A     PG 1048.
The chances of him being your relative are only very slim as Robert was born on 26th Oct 1892  so the date of death would have had to be before the 26th Oct 1968  ( possibly late Sept or early Oct ) to agree with the age of 75
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 02, 2019, 09:58:52 pm
Thank you all for trying
 No Hugo if he had of lived in Hartlepool I would have met him.
 Cheers
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Helig on December 03, 2019, 12:08:57 pm
I think your best option is to make contact with the people who have their trees on Ancestry.

It looks to me as though something happened as there is no exact match for him I can find in the 1939 register. There is no obvious marriage, or death, to be found for him either. It could be he died pre 1939, or went overseas.

There are some possible entries which could be pursued but you would have to obtain certificates only to find they aren't the right ones for him. This could prove expensive. I note a death registered in Conwy in 1930 for a Robert W Roberts age 41 but it is difficult to determine if it is the right person unless you obtain the certificate.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 03, 2019, 01:25:47 pm
There are some possible entries which could be pursued but you would have to obtain certificates only to find they aren't the right ones for him. This could prove expensive. I note a death registered in Conwy in 1930 for a Robert W Roberts age 41 but it is difficult to determine if it is the right person unless you obtain the certificate.

Helig.

Helig R W R we know was born on the 26th Oct 1892 so by 1930 he would only have been about 38 so I don't think that he is the one we are looking for
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 03, 2019, 03:52:12 pm
I've just checked Robert William Roberts who died in Hartlepool in 1968 and there is a record of his birth in the Dec Q of 1893 at Hartlepool so this confirms that he is not Jeff's relative
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Meleri on December 03, 2019, 05:27:46 pm
I have just looked on the 1939 Register & the only Robert Roberts showing up as born 26th October 1892 is a Farm Carter & Bayliff living at Pantcaerhun, Bangor. Other people at the same address Annie Roberts born 23/5/1889, Cledwyn R Roberts born 27/12/1927 & Catherine Roberts born 1/1/1863. I'm really not sure as to whether this is the one you are looking for but it may be worth looking into.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2019, 10:02:08 pm
Yes Meleri I have just joined the Forces War Record site just to find out what you wrote is the same there . So if any one what's to look up some body on that site just send my a message.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 04, 2019, 02:28:23 pm
I went to the Library again today and had a search on Find My Past for Robert William Roberts and this is what I found in my search.

There was no entry for a Robert William Roberts or Robert W Roberts in the 1939 Register with a birth date of 26th October 1892

I checked out the Robert Roberts from Pantcaerhun  Bangor and his birthday was on the 26th but in November 1892 so this person is not Jeff's relative.
In fact this Robert Roberts and Jeff's Robert William Roberts births were registered in the quarter ended December 1892 at the Bangor and Conway Registration Districts respectively

So if we cannot prove that R W R was in the 1939 do we presume that he had died before then?     

One thing of interest is that some time ago Jeff came up with a possibility of a Robert William Roberts who lived in Ty Newydd Barrog
The only thing was that Jeff found out that this R W R was born on the 25th October 1892 and that is the nearest match so far.
It's only a thought because the original records are copied by someone, could they have mistaken the 26th for the 25th?
I assume that Jeff has a copy of the birth certificate for R W R and it clearly shows the 26th  but does anyone know where the original 1939 records are kept and are they able to be viewed online?

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Helig on December 05, 2019, 09:53:12 am
I don't know for certain where the original 1939 register records are held but would presume they would be in The National Archives at Kew.

I saw that entry for Robert Roberts born 25 October 1892 living at Ty Newydd. The household appears to have Richard Roberts, b14/08/1879, Tenant Farmer, as the head. Then there is Robert Roberts, Carter on farm. The last entry for Ty Newydd is for Elizabeth Roberts, born 21/03/1888.  It is possible that Elizabeth is the wife of Robert but we cannot say for sure.

I don't think it is possible to make a decision on whether this is Jeff's relative on the basis of this information. The Electoral Roll might give some clues such as his middle name (if any) but even then it wouldn't be in existence for the war years.

Helig.
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 05, 2019, 11:34:50 am
Helig,  I think that we need more than a stroke of luck to find the correct Robert William Roberts

I'm assuming that Jeff has a copy of the original birth certificate that shows the DOB  as 26th Oct 1892 and if so perhaps Jeff can confirm the date
I've a vague memory that when I looked at Robert's school records there may have been a different date or age on them and I'll have the notes somewhere in one of my note books

The last thing we have on him is the 1911 Census when he was living and working in Colwyn Bay but since then nothing at all

I've double checked the 1939 Register and if the DOB is 26th Oct 1892 then Robert is not on it.    I've checked death records from 1911 to 1992 and cannot find a positive match there either
The only two possible matches are :-
Robert W Roberts  d 1933 Sept Q  Corwen  aged 41           Vol 11b    pg 350
    ditto                 d 1943 Sept Q  Hiraethog  aged 51        Vol 11b    pg 306



Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 05, 2019, 11:19:00 pm
Yes Hugo can confirm 26 Oct 1892 and Reg; 15 Nov; 1892
With the 1911 census we or I have not fix him down to one person----On one he is living with Wm Roberts at 14 Victoria St Civil Parish of Llanbeblig he is down as Wm Roberts nephew.( what is a nephew because I have not found a Wm Roberts yet). The other with a Evan H Evans Farmer living at Talyeafni I think he is down as farm labour
The next information may have nothing to do with Robert W, but on the Forces War Records looking at South Wales Borderers there is Sargent R W Roberts from Birkenhead Service number 21341
then there is Robert William Roberts from Monmouthshire private service number 227179. As mentioned before non of the records have birth dates or next of kin, so they may have nothing to do with what we are looking for
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Helig on December 06, 2019, 10:11:04 am
The other possibility is that he went overseas prior to 1939. There are many people by the name of Robert Roberts, or Robert W Roberts, b 1892, shown on the UK outward passenger lists prior to 1939. There is one for Robert W Roberts, b 1892, who sailed from Liverpool to Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1919. A Robert W Roberts, b1892,  is shown on a US List of Alien arrivals at Canadian Atlantic and Pacific seaports in 1919.

He could have moved to another area in the UK which would make it difficult to trace him as well. Had this been the case, he should be traced on the 1939 register but people do get missed off at times.

It would be a help if Jeff could contact the person/people who have him in their Family Tree on Ancestry. I am on Genes Reunited and have searched that site but no one has Robert, or Ethel, in their trees.

The dates of birth in the school registers seem to be incorrrect very often from what I have seen of them.

Helig
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on December 06, 2019, 10:56:32 am
I've looked at the sailings from Liverpool too as it's a possibility that he did emigrate but it would be extremely difficult to find the correct one

Jeff has done a lot of searching but has been unable to find his ancestor and it is time consuming and costly too for him.     If I was Jeff then I'd have a DNA test done either by My Heritage ( the one I've had done ) or by Ancestry.    It's surprising what turns up and you find that you have relatives all over the world.

Helig's advise on contacting the people who have him in their family tree is sound and could save Jeff a lot of time in the future and that would be the first thing to do prior to any DNA test

Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 06, 2019, 11:53:35 am
I've have found the same as you---on the familysearch site LDS you can look at the census for the USA and there are  4-5 Robert W Roberts all  born around 1893 in Wales, but no exact birth dates.
 As Helig advise I will go back on to Ancestry and see what happens---Thank's again all
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on December 24, 2019, 02:26:09 am
Happy and Merry Christmas and a save New Year Hugo
 I have not joined Ancestry yet, but you can have a look at what people are looking for  but not in detail. I never found any one looking a Robert William Roberts with that date and place, also look at Robert's fathers brothers and sisters same story. Well into the New Year will give it a go again
 All the best to every one that's tried to help Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Jeff on March 02, 2021, 03:24:56 am
Hi Hugh yes still looking to find Robert William Roberts born 26 oct 1892 Llandudno, this may be grasping at straws but if we have the   correct RW Roberts on the 1911 census he is working for Evan H Evans at the Registration District:   Llanrwst just so happens in the same house is Catherine Evans aged 24. In Llanrwst there is a marriage in April  1922 of a Robert W Roberts and a Catherine Evans you can see where I am heading. There is no clue online that gives either parents of the marriage, so apart from sending away for the cert; I am hoping some one has a Catherine Evans in there tree
  Cheers All the best
       Jeff
Title: Re: Robert Roberts born 1893 Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2021, 04:48:52 pm
Hi Jeff,   you've done an extensive search for Robert William Roberts and I was hoping that you would have found the answer by now.
I still think that someone in the Roberts family who live on the Great Orme may have the answer you are looking for but haven''t seen your posting on the forum.
From memory I think that you found a near match but the birth date was the 25th Oct and not the 26th but bad handwriting could have meant that whoever copied the birth date could have mistaken the 26 for a 25 but that's only food for thought

I have had a look at some death records and those after 1969 show the date of birth but there is no entry for him from 1969 t0 1993
I did see an entry for a Robert W Roberts in the March 1963 quarter at the Aled Registration District and his age of 70 matches the age your Robert would have been but unfortunately the date of birth is not recorded on what I viewed

Your latest find of the marriage to Catherine Evans in 1922 may be the one but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and apply for a certificate and save yourself endless hours of searching.   Obviously it's costly if you get the wrong one but it's quicker than waiting for a response to the Evans family tree search.
Have you tried one of those DNA searches with Ancestry or My Heritage?     You'd be surprised by the results you get and they are featuring DNA family searches on TV this year

Anyway good luck with your search and stay safe and well in these strange times