Three Towns Forum

The Local => Local News & Discussion => Topic started by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 12:04:55 am

Title: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 12:04:55 am
In the past on this Forum, members have made comment about certain aspects of Llandudno which must be improved if we are to maximise our tourism appeal.
Yorkie in particular has raised the issue of where coaches are able to drop off their passengers, in order for them to enjoy their limited time in the resort.
I agree with him, and I have seen many examples personally where people arriving in Llandudno via coach do not see much more than Parc Llandudno and perhaps Bog Island before having to return home.

I have always thought that this is a ludicrous situation, and entirely unfair to the visitors themselves and to businesses higher up Mostyn St and on the pier.
I have always been convinced that the Llandudno coach park is very badly situated.

In recognition of this, the  General Manager of Llandudno Pier, Simon Mason, has this week been making a direct attempt to divert coaches from the coach park, and to drop off their passengers near the Pier.
In fairness, he has suggested that rather than all coaches drop off at the pier, there could be a fairer system whereby some coaches come to the pier, some to Gloddaeth St and others to the coach park.  (Perhaps other places too)

Mr Mason has encountered very vehement opposition to this initiative, often offensive too.
He was even told by the coach park that it is ILLEGAL for coaches to drop off passengers anywhere else in Llandudno.

This is patently untrue, and obviously false as one can see road areas marked ''Coaches Only'' all around North Parade and other streets.
Mr Mason has since looked for support within CCBC in his campaign for fairness, and I for one wish him well.

When all is said and done, surely it is best for visitors to the town to have the opportunity to enjoy the attractions for which Llandudno is famous.   The Greatt Orme, The Trams, The Cable Car..... and YES, the pier!

We live in the Queen of Welsh Resorts......... let us ensure that visitors to the town are able to see the best of it.








Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on May 23, 2012, 07:25:55 am
Start with the town council if you are looking for obstacles to tourism,all they go on about is tourist parking in their mobili caravans on the prom without any alternate site for these people who are touring Wales and made very unwelcome in Llandudno,coaches blocking the prom was an old favorite and just look at the state of the town beach,xmas lights,flower beds they have no interest in the town they are bonly interested in how many,independants or conservatives they can get on the town council.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 23, 2012, 08:14:59 am
I guarantee that 99.99% of day visitors upon leaving the Mostyn Broadway Coach Park will always walk in the direction of Llandudno town centre, the promenade and the pier.

I am sure the owner of Bodafon Farm as well as the café owners and all the shopkeepers in C-y-D would also like a few coaches to stop over our end of Llandudno now and again.

.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: suepp on May 23, 2012, 09:06:03 am
Could one of the little trains  be routed between the coach park and tourist attractions like the pier and the farm park? and surely there must be a spare area of land that could be used as a municipal site for the Motorhomes. All the "local"campsites are much too far away from the town's amenities, shops, cafes and restaurants.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 23, 2012, 09:17:50 am
I guarantee that 99.99% of day visitors upon leaving the Mostyn Broadway Coach Park will always walk in the direction of Llandudno town centre, the promenade and the pier.

I am sure the owner of Bodafon Farm as well as the café owners and all the shopkeepers in C-y-D would also like a few coaches to stop over our end of Llandudno now and again.
Thing is, Bri, the vast majority of coach visitors are not as young as they once were (he says diplomatically) and its a pretty long walk up from the coach park to the centre of town/prom/pier. It's apparent that visitors come to Llandudno to see all the traditional attractions (town centre/prom/pier etc), so I think having coach drop-off points at the top end of town would be a far better idea than forcing them to use an inconveniently situated coach park. There could be one outside the Pier Gates, one maybe outside the Clarence Hotel in Gloddaeth Street etc. Obviously, they would be there purely for visitors to be picked up/dropped off during a short period of time, coaches would not be parked there.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on May 23, 2012, 11:18:48 am
This is an excellent idea-- Yes it is illegal to park coaches overnight on certain streets in the town ( I don't know about the others) but lately there have been quite a few using the central reservation area in Gloddaeth. Ok if they shift them early, but if left during the morning visitors are scouting around for parking places.
Drop off and collection points in the town centre would be far easier for the large number of elderly day visitors. As Dave says-- it is quite a hike to the coach park !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on May 23, 2012, 11:32:22 am
The Llandudno On Street Parking Order has a blanket ban on Coaches parking on virtually every street and road in the Town apart from any area specifically marked for Coach Parking.

I cannot remember whether this included periods for picking up and setting down of passengers, but no doubt someone will be able to tell us.   The marked Parking places outside the hotels are purely for such a purpose and parking for any other period of time is not allowed.

Policing of the Parking Order has never been a major concern of the Parking Department, neither has the ban on overnight parking of mobile homes on the Promenade or other banned areas.

 ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on May 23, 2012, 11:52:08 am
To me it does;nt matter where they drop of as long as they keep coming,but the cafe on the coach park and the bog island cafes will then be up in arms so you can;t win.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on May 23, 2012, 12:07:13 pm
As I said to Fester earlier on today, the big problem here is not the dropping off, it's the picking up. Very very few businesses, other drivers etc object to a coach dropping its passengers off. After all, even with very elderly passengers, it's only going to take a few minutes.
  Now, invariably, the coach driver has told his passengers they will be picked up at the same spot.He has to do that, most of his passengers will not know the area, and many are hard pushed to find there way back to the same place. Never mind somewhere else.
  Now, what happens, all the time. Driver - everyone back please at 4 30. 4 30 arrives, all back except six. So they wait, and wait, and eventually maybe half an hour later all return and the coach is gone.
  In the meantime the driver has been assaulted verbally and physically, he got parking tickets, he's been arrested ---  andi,m not joking. Mike
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 23, 2012, 12:23:56 pm
How about a nice tramway along the prom with a connection to the coach park ?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 09:06:45 pm
Just responding to a few of those points...

Bri, Whilst 99.99% of visitors would love to get to the Tramway / Pier / Cable Car etc... its physically not possible for most of them as they get a maximum of 4.5 hours in the resort.
Most of that time is spent pottering around Parc Llandudno, looking for a toilet, or getting half way up Mostyn St before having to head back to the coach.
As I made clear in my posting, no one is talking about ALL coaches coming to the Pier area.  Merely a fairer allocation of them to drop off there, which will benefit the visitors!   What attractions do people travel hundreds of miles to see in Craig Y Don by the way?
The Coach park is far too close to CyD as it is.

Yorkie,
(nice to see you back, you missed a GREAT Extravaganza  :laugh: :laugh:)
A coach driver is allowed to drop passengers off anywhere he likes in an urban area... including on double yellow lines.

Nemesis (and others)
The coaches would drop off the passengers, and then head off to Builder St to park up, so there would be no actual long term parking required.

No, it simply has to be common sense to deposit tourists as close to the attractions they came to see.
I reckon that 90% of visitors leave the resort without ever knowing that there even is a Tramway or a Cable car, let alone being able to use it.
And.... don't get me started about West Shore!!   
I have customers who have been here a week, and never even knew it existed!

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 23, 2012, 10:11:42 pm
Fester, how about bringing back the number 73 bus from April - September?

It can do a hop on/ hop off (HOHO) circular tour all day for visitors starting from Mostyn Broadway Coach Park - C-y-D - Bodafon Farm – Bandstand - Pier Entrance - Happy Valley - Tram Station - Copper Mines - Great Orme Summit – West Shore – M&Co – M&S – Mostyn Broadway Coach Park.

.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 10:35:37 pm
An excellent suggestion.... though it might not be viable for ARRIVA, so instead, a local private bus operator could be persuaded (or paid) to do it.   ;)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on May 23, 2012, 10:36:20 pm
Will it be No. 73 because that's how long in minutes it will take to do a round trip?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 23, 2012, 10:39:22 pm
You'd probably have to have a couple of buses running in order to provide a regular enough service. Cost of buses + cost of drivers = not cheap.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on May 23, 2012, 10:51:10 pm
The trouble is that with 50 people getting off each coach you'd fill the bus at the first stop, take them needlessly through C-Y-D and Bodafon until finally dropping them off probably near the pier from where you'd then go through the rest of the route nearly empty. The afternoon pick up to return to the coach park from the pier would be equally as bad as you'd fill up at the pier with people just wanting to get back to the coach but would take them up & down the orme leaving behind any customers that were at the mines/summit because there would be no room for them.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 23, 2012, 10:54:22 pm
I tried, Fester !!!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 10:55:30 pm
Why be so negative SDQ?  I'll get The Medz to sort you out...  _))* _))*

On a serious note though, you are correct about the issues involved, which is why the pier General Manager is negotiating with bus operators in order to provide a more simple route.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 10:56:54 pm
I tried, Fester !!!

A worthy and noble suggestion Bri.   It has its merits... and something similar will indeed be done, I am certain.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on May 23, 2012, 11:00:46 pm
I lived up the orme for over 30 years, I drove for Crosville/Arriva for 10 years thereby operated the 73 service many times so was quite disappointed to see it terminated but in this particular matter the obvious answer is coaches dropping off/picking up somewhere in the town centre or at the pier gates.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 23, 2012, 11:02:41 pm
Don't new bus routes require some sort of special approval? Its not as simple as just hiring a bus and driver.  ???
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 11:05:21 pm
Luckily certain local Bus companies work well with CCBC, and are able to secure the necessary permissions... (Hopefully)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 23, 2012, 11:06:07 pm
The Welsh Mountain Zoo has been running a complimentary shuttle service for many years.

Welsh Mountain Zoo Free Minibus Service 2012

The free Zoo Mini Bus service from Colwyn Bay railway station will commence on Sunday 1st April and will run until Sunday 16th September. The first trip from the station will start at 10:00am and will then run on a continuous loop throughout the day. You should not have to wait longer than 20 minutes for the minibus to arrive for collection. The last trip down from the Zoo will be just before 4:45pm.

If you are organising a group wishing to use the minibus service please contact the Zoo Office first: 01492 532938 key 3 when the call attendant service begins.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 23, 2012, 11:08:40 pm
 :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on May 23, 2012, 11:09:27 pm
You used to have to register the route with the Traffic Commissioner's office.
I think you need to be able to prove you can run the route with your vehicles including in the possibility of a break down (spare vehicle?), you need to prove you have somewhere to keep the vehicles at night, a proper service record for the vehicles, you need a Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC) to operate a fleet of buses.... Etc... Etc...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on May 23, 2012, 11:49:19 pm
Like I said.... obstacles in the way!

But I prefer to see obstacles as challenges,  and its a worthy cause.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on May 24, 2012, 07:32:31 am
Why not advertise all that Llandudno has to offer in a massive poster on the side of toolhire shop facing into the coach park.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 24, 2012, 08:07:50 am
Good idea!  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 24, 2012, 08:08:27 am
I am surprised the red hop-on hop-off bus owned by Alpine does not stay parked up in the bus stop outside the Mostyn Broadway Coach Park during the time when all the day visitors begin arriving.

The bus would soon fill up.

At present, hardly anyone uses it because it starts and ends at the pier gate.

The good news though is it does travel through C-y-D.  D)

I recently noticed it only costs around £6 pp per day to travel between Llandudno - Conwy.

We recently used those buses in Rome, Monaco and Barcelona and on each occasion we were always charged in excess of £20 pp.

.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: white rabbit on May 25, 2012, 05:45:22 pm
I agree with the hop-on-hop off bus starting where people arrive in town - they can then hop on and hop when they see something that interests them.  I have dine it in many towns and cities abroad.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on May 26, 2012, 07:02:58 am
Its hard enough getting any coaches here these days without whisking the tourists we do get off to Conwy.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on May 26, 2012, 07:08:49 am
The idea of Hop on, Hop off buses is just what it says.  You can get on or get off anywhere it stops.   It does not have to have a start and end point but it does have to have a convenient spot for driver changes, or to stop for longer periods than the normal stops.     ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 26, 2012, 07:56:30 am
There lies the problem.

The route allocated to Our Hop on, Hop off bus takes it along the promenade in front of Venue Cymru.

It turns right at the sailing club and then left at the Broadway roundabout to travel through C-y-D and onwards to Conwy.

Day trippers arriving at the Mostyn Broadway Coach Station during the morning miss it.

Its Number 200 route should be amended to re-route it to stop, pick-up and drop-off at a bus stop right outside the Mostyn Broadway Coach Station.

There is plenty of room along that stretch of road for another bus stop.

The amended route could allow the bus (now full of day visitors) to then turn left at the Broadway roundabout and left again at the sailing club to travel along our magnificent promenade with its first stop being at the pier entrance.

Passengers are free to hop off now to walk along the pier or hop off later after visiting Conwy.

If the General Manager of the Pier cannot persuade the powers-that-be to allow visiting coach drivers to drop their passengers off at the pier entrance then my solution surely offers a sensible compromise?


.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 26, 2012, 03:36:22 pm
Just before gojng onto the pier earlier, I noticed our HoHo bus is £7.50 for adults and only £6 for senior citizens.

This must be the cheapest HoHo bus in the whole world and it is rarely half full.

.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Micox on May 26, 2012, 04:15:25 pm
 $angry$ What about us wheelchair users and the Equality Act 2010? $pain$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on May 26, 2012, 06:10:24 pm
Same prices, I guess.

.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 14, 2012, 12:58:02 pm
I am surprised the red hop-on hop-off bus owned by Alpine does not stay parked up in the bus stop outside the Mostyn Broadway Coach Park during the time when all the day visitors begin arriving.

The bus would soon fill up.

 .

It was nice to see an Alpine Heritage open deck bus parked in the Mostyn Broadway bus stop this morning at 10.30am waiting for the coaches to arrive.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 14, 2012, 01:34:06 pm
I saw that yesterday, I wondered what it was there for. I couldn't see any signage?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: hollins on June 14, 2012, 02:55:40 pm
It was there when I passed a couple of hours ago. I wondered if it was there to promote its use for private hire, weddings etc because that was what it said on it.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 14, 2012, 05:26:08 pm
It may only be a coincidence but I suggested it to one of the drivers for Alpine near the pier gates last week.

I suppose if Alpine used one of their red HoHo buses they could be accused of not keeping to their scheduled City Sightseeing 200 route.

If they manage to attract a few day visitors alighting the coaches then good luck to them I say.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on June 14, 2012, 05:47:10 pm
If they could afford an extra driver in the spare bus at the busiest times they could possibly run it as a duplicate service so it wouldn't impact on the regular service vehicle.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 14, 2012, 06:01:50 pm
except route 200 goes down the promenade and not along Mostyn Broadway and past the coach park where it should travel.

What is there to stop a passenger getting off in Conwy and catching a red HoHo back to Llandudno?
Title: promenade/welcome lights
Post by: colfair on June 18, 2012, 11:41:46 am
Greetings all,
            I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas on why the council are so apathetic about the 'decorative' lighting on the promenade and the welcome/croeso sign atop Penrhyn hill? a couple of years ago the council actually made the effort to extend the promenade lighting beyond venue cymru and all the way to Bodafon fields, only to leave them switched off for the majority of the year!!
            We pride ourselves as being a year round resort now, so why are we giving the impression to early/late season visitors that we can't be bothered to welcome them properly? These lights should be on every day of the year, not just a couple of hours from July to August. Hoteliers and traders are struggling enough without the council taking a couldn't care less attitude to the image of the town. I know there will be people who argue that it costs too much to run them, but this is just stupid shortsightedness, and there are some who will argue that the town would be better off without tourists, well, If that is what they want,maybe they should move to a town that doesn't have a tourism trade? Like it or not, we ARE a holiday destination (and a damn good one too) but we are in danger of spoiling the ship for a ha'porth of tar !
Title: Re: promenade/welcome lights
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 18, 2012, 12:55:03 pm
I totally agree, Llandudno was built for tourists and are the main source of income still. We seem to be going backwards in presentation sadly  :(
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: colfair on June 22, 2012, 01:17:35 pm
Lo and Behold, 21st June, 9p.m. two vans with cherrypickers arrive on CYD promenade and proceed to fettle the coloured lights along the prom, tightening up bulbs that are unlit and generally looking busy. Having got all the bulbs working they then switched them off and went home !!  Nice bit of overtime there lads!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 23, 2012, 08:38:02 am
At the moment the biggest obstacle to tourism in Llandudno is the weather and we can;t even blame the council.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 23, 2012, 08:57:53 am
Very true!  Although it's sunny at the moment in Rhos on Sea!  D) D)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: pentan on June 23, 2012, 10:31:54 am
Why don’t you people that were employed in higher echelons of management on this forum invest in bringing the trams back?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on June 23, 2012, 10:53:25 am
 Even the ex-boss of RBS hasent got THAT much money. Mike
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 23, 2012, 11:17:15 am
There was an attempt to revitalise the trams in Llandudno some few years ago, but it was found that the idea was totally impractical.   The idea was to operate from Bodafon Field (set up as a park and ride) into the Town.  Too many reasons against to list here, but probably available on one or other web site.  :)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: pentan on June 23, 2012, 11:58:14 am
pity that would bring in people to the area
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 23, 2012, 01:56:37 pm
Plenty more important things to be taken care of before trams.   We already have a couple that go up and down the Orme, another one or two in town wouldn't make that much difference and would create more problems than benefits!  ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 23, 2013, 12:10:00 am
Next week, we see the return of the Triathalon to Llandudno.

Why is this an obstacle to tourism in Llandudno?

Well, in the past we have seen certain streets completely cordoned off for parts the day, (Church Walks, Happy Valley Rd etc) in order for these guys to race their bikes around at breakneck speed.
But now we see not only those roads out of bounds to the public for the ENTIRE day, but also that CCBC have banned all parking on those streets and also the public pay & display areas by The Grand, by the Pier and Marine Drive.

We are talking the best part of 200 car loads of visitors forced out on a weekend in the main season.
Not only that, but what message are we sending to disabled people?   There are LOADS of disabled parking spaces in those areas which are now DISALLOWED for the whole day.

The message?   ''Llandudno welcomes able-bodied people only this weekend''
If you have difficulty walking, you can damn well walk a lot further to get to see any attractions.
It is really badly thought through, if at all.    $angry$ $angry$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 23, 2013, 07:51:35 am
The organisers of the event have been walking about the affected areas and talking to the owners of businesses affected, apologising for the 'inconvenience'. But it does seem as though there are many more events necessitating road closures than there were only a few years ago.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 23, 2013, 09:58:57 am
Except for Extravaganza Week-end (just to appease Wrex) the sign at the top of Penrhyn Hill should read, "LLANDUDNO CLOSED", that would sort the matter for once and for all!   Similar signs could be erected on ALL approach roads.   
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 23, 2013, 10:49:07 am
What quantitative way is there, I wonder, of determining the benefits to Llandudno of all these events?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 23, 2013, 12:10:33 pm
You could ask each competetor wether they have stayed overnight,wether they bought any family or friends with them,where they going to stay on after or going straight home,this event is not a tourist attraction,not many people watch the race,so the jury is out on this one
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: andyCYD on June 23, 2013, 03:33:36 pm
I thought a few people would complain that their human right to drive where the like whenever they want was being infringed for a few hours. I never expected to hear an event attracting 1,000 competitors to Llandudno being described as an "obstacle to tourism."

The Triathlon puts Llandudno on the map for a lot of people that may never have visited before. Even if they don't spend a lot on the day, if they go away with a good impression of the place they are very likely to return; and tell their friends and family about it. 

With the first competitors starting at 2:30pm and the last finishers likely to be coming in around 8pm, this will be great for spectators.  'Transition' on the promenade will be the place to be. Here you will see swimmers starting. After coming out of the water they will then change from wetsuits to cycling gear before heading off around the Great Orme. Next time they return they will change into running gear before heading off to Penrhyn Bay. Final stretch is back to the finish line on Llandudno Prom.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 23, 2013, 05:44:35 pm
Surely, many competitors must be staying overnight on Friday in Llandudno in order to wake up refreshed on the day to do a triathlon and then drive home afterwards?

On the other hand, I cannot see some retail businesses benefitting much, if any, from such an event. e.g Fester's.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 23, 2013, 06:01:04 pm
the supporters and family friends will be spending in Llandudno so a few will benefit
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 23, 2013, 06:53:05 pm
Any business emanating from the event was not my point at all. 

The event will deter some business from the usual regular visitors, because a large swathe of car parking has been wiped out.
Do not underestimate how many Llandudno tourists are regulars, visiting four or more times a year.

My point was, why must all this parking be forfeit this year?  Its hard enough in Llandudno at the best of times, and nigh on impossible for the disabled.  It's outrageous, it really is.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 23, 2013, 07:43:08 pm
Nothing seems to have stopped disabled car owners in the past from parking on yellow lines etc. so I cannot truly understand what the problem will be.

Everybody else will probably park on the central reservations down Gloddaeth Avenue or on the grass verges in Colwyn Road.

There will also be plenty of free parking in Asda, Parc Llandudno and on Mostyn Champneys for those wanting to park for 2 or 3 hours.

If you want to park for longer on Parc Llandudno then one can pay for the privilege.

The car park in the Victoria Centre will also be available.

Alright there will be some inconvenience for a few hours for car drivers.

Fester, we ought to be encouraging these events to come to Llandudno instead of knocking them.

I am sorry to say I am not with you on this one.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on June 23, 2013, 08:19:22 pm
    I would just like to point out that a seaside town around about 16 miles East of Llandudno would absolutely fall over backwards to get an event like this, They would close the whole town off FULL STOP
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on June 25, 2013, 08:43:56 pm
    I would just like to point out that a seaside town around about 16 miles East of Llandudno would absolutely fall over backwards to get an event like this, They would close the whole town off FULL STOP

They've already had theirs a few weeks back (although I suspect it was on a smaller scale).

http://www.xtramileevents.com/events/calendar/rhyl-triathlon (http://www.xtramileevents.com/events/calendar/rhyl-triathlon)


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 28, 2013, 06:45:23 pm
Well if people don't think the Triathalon is an obstacle to tourism, maybe this might satisfy the criteria?

Apparently, the North Wales Alliance, (an offshoot of the right wing EDL) is organising a major demonstration in Llandudno on August 10th.  One of the busiest Saturdays of the year.
It is being organised via Facebook, and over 1500 are expected to attend.

Obviously, left wing opposing groups are also planning to counter-demonstrate, and are urging people to join their demo on the same day in Llandudno.

I understand that the police have already 'advised' local pubs to remain closed all day, and that other attractions are expecting to remain closed to avoid damage or risk to staff.

Nice eh?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 28, 2013, 07:25:21 pm
Time to sell up and move out  ££$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on June 29, 2013, 11:52:03 am
Well if people don't think the Triathalon is an obstacle to tourism, maybe this might satisfy the criteria?

Apparently, the North Wales Alliance, (an offshoot of the right wing EDL) is organising a major demonstration in Llandudno on August 10th.  One of the busiest Saturdays of the year.
It is being organised via Facebook, and over 1500 are expected to attend.

Obviously, left wing opposing groups are also planning to counter-demonstrate, and are urging people to join their demo on the same day in Llandudno.

I understand that the police have already 'advised' local pubs to remain closed all day, and that other attractions are expecting to remain closed to avoid damage or risk to staff.

Nice eh?

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-alliance-demo-llandudno-4749355 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-alliance-demo-llandudno-4749355)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 29, 2013, 12:19:35 pm
I've been doing some digging. The Daily Post article is sensationalist nonsense and they should be ashamed of themselves for publishing it.

On the Group's FB page , it's interesting that the original name of the event was '"ENGLISH DEFENCE LEAGUE EVENT:Northwest Alliance Gogledd Cymru Awareness Day".
https://www.facebook.com/gogleddcymrunwa (https://www.facebook.com/gogleddcymrunwa)
Obviously, at some point, they realised Llandudno was not in England, so changed the name to:
"North Wales Alliance Gogledd Cymru Awareness Day"

They claim that:

It has come to our attention that militant Islam is starting to have an impact in north Wales, we have had reports of these so called Sharia patrols in towns along the north Wales coast, there have been cars driving around town centres harassing girls telling them to go home and get dressed, trying to convince people not to drink saying it is against Islam. This is only the beginning of things to come.

Islam is trying to get a hold in Wales, and we are starting to notice its affects, many schools are serving Halal meat to our kids, there is less integration with the wearing of the burka on the rise. Islam is coming and we must act now before it is too late. Rest assured that taking the attitude of it will never happen here will only result in one thing that is Islam taking over, we need to learn lessons from towns like Bradford, Blackburn, Rochdale, all have high numbers of islamics and they all suffer the effects such as no go areas, child grooming gangs, violence toward non muslims. We will not stand by and let this happen, we will fight this with every breath in our body. Now is the time to stand up and be counted.


The opposing group is:
https://www.facebook.com/events/503721449695198/?ref=3 (https://www.facebook.com/events/503721449695198/?ref=3)

...who say:

The N.W Alliance (another name for WDL) are planning to hold a demo in Llandudno on Saturday, 10th August.

On the N.W Alliance page (http://www.facebook.com/gogleddcymruedl (http://www.facebook.com/gogleddcymruedl)) they are calling Islam a DISEASE, I think these people need opposing!

Please join me on the 10th August in Llandudno to oppose these fascists.

Our rally point will be the Llandudno Coach Park, just up the road from the train station.

Bring flags, banners and placards!

SEE YOU THERE BROTHERS AND SISTERS,

Solidarity.


Frankly, I don't want either group in Llandudno, disrupting trade in the town.  &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 29, 2013, 01:26:47 pm
With the very few access roads into Llandudno it would be quite Easy for everyone to be stopped en route into the town and any weapons, controversial banners, etc to be confiscated, and any known trouble makers turned away.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Big Alan on June 29, 2013, 03:19:18 pm
Oppose it, make your voices heard, get on to the police, your mp, the pricks organising it, anyone who will listen! The last one organised in Liverpool city centre was opposed so much that only about 15 were in the march, the police shortened their march route and it all went off unnoticed, people carried on with their shopping in town unaware of any protest. They only march where they have support.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 29, 2013, 08:01:24 pm
You're right, the Daily Post article makes it sound like a big deal when, in reality, there will probably only be a handful of people demonstrating. Better to ignore them than make a big fuss about it like the papers are doing.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 30, 2013, 12:30:13 am
I think I'm right in saying that despite having a fundamental 'right to demonstrate', there is an application process that any potential demo must go through in order to be permitted.
They can be disallowed on several grounds, but rarely are.

If these organisations have not applied, than it cannot simply be assumed the demo will go ahead, and can be banned.

If these organisations HAVE applied and been permitted, then the CCBC and Police Chief responsible should be immediately sacked.
It is entirely inappropriate to have any such rally in a seaside town, especially on a busy day when children and pensioners are here to ENJOY themselves, not be subjected to hatred and vitriol.

There are 6 weeks for those in authority to see sense, and nip this lunacy in the bud.

Politics does not come in to it, when I see that certain people on facebook are just looking forward to coming to Llandudno on August 10th to 'crack some heads'

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Linda on June 30, 2013, 12:51:19 am
I think I'm right in saying that despite having a fundamental 'right to demonstrate', there is an application process that any potential demo must go through in order to be permitted.
They can be disallowed on several grounds, but rarely are.

If these organisations have not applied, than it cannot simply be assumed the demo will go ahead, and can be banned.

If these organisations HAVE applied and been permitted, then the CCBC and Police Chief responsible should be immediately sacked.
It is entirely inappropriate to have any such rally in a seaside town, especially on a busy day when children and pensioners are here to ENJOY themselves, not be subjected to hatred and vitriol.

There are 6 weeks for those in authority to see sense, and nip this lunacy in the bud.

Politics does not come in to it, when I see that certain people on facebook are just looking forward to coming to Llandudno on August 10th to 'crack some heads'

Hear hear! although I do believe as was said the Daily Post are over reacting. Folk just need to get on with enjoying themselves, but with publicity like that its that newspaper that should be held to account for frightening people away. If everyone ignores the so called threat and carries on, the rally will have no significance.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on June 30, 2013, 08:31:10 am
Well said Fester---and Linda
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: pumpkin on July 02, 2013, 09:19:59 pm
I write this as a coach driver and someone who has visited Llandudno many times with my family. Today I turned up at Mostyn Broadway coach drop off with  a blue badge holder on board as I have done many times, and have always been greeted by a friendly attendant who would instruct me where to park up. Not today, there was a parking attendant on site busy sticking £70 parking fines on all the coaches parked, and he was enjoying it!  Asked him where do I park with my blue badge only to be told, pay your fee and go to Builder Street, asked him what about the previous attendant and  blue badge holders, told me council got rid of him, he was doing it wrong. Well Ive news for the council, the previous attendant was the best advert for your town, he was interested in doing his best for the incoming  visitors. I would be interested to know if any councillors have walked from the coach park into the town, the footpath is covered by low branches in many places, and what about that big empty space next to railway station, would make a very large coach park nearer to town centre.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 03, 2013, 12:18:28 am
Please tell me that we are not expecting visitors to make there way into the resort of Llandudno after being dropped off at Builder Street?

Its bad enough the coach park being at the 'wrong end' of town as it is.  Am I missing something?

Visitors need to be dropped off on either Gloddaeth St, North Parade or The Promenade, and this must be clearly understood.

Jim Jones at CCBC, your job is Tourism, are you listening to this?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 03, 2013, 04:44:43 am
Mostyn Broadway Coach Park is 100 yards from the promenade one way and 150 yards from Mostyn Street in another so I cannot see any problem with its current location.

Can you imagine the chaos and safety issues with twenty or thirty coaches all picking up 1000+ elderly passengers between 4pm – 5.30pm at any of the locations suggested by Fester?

However, I believe the current opening hours of toilet facilities and the tourist information at the current site could be much improved.

Yorkie will soon tell me if I am wrong but the procedure for coach drivers seems to be to drop-off their day trippers in the coach park on Mostyn Broadway in the morning and then move away to park their coaches in Builder Street until later in the day when they return to the coach park to collect their passengers before making their way home.

The reason for this I guess is to make way for other coaches to arrive in the coach park to drop-off.

The problem is there never seems to enough coaches on a daily basis these days to fill up the coach park so coaches often stay in the coach park all day.

Even over the weekend of the Extravaganza we noticed the coach park was not completely full.

Perhaps, it is time for the relevant department of CCBC to review the present rule with a trial run of all-day parking in Mostyn Broadway Coach Park and perhaps we will even stop seeing coaches parked all over Llandudno and C-y-D with drivers trying to avoid paying something like £10 to park or having to park up in Builder Street and walk back into Llandudno.

Some observers might suggest CCBC should be making it easier for proprietors of private coach companies to organise day trips to Llandudno by giving them free parking for a maximum of eight hours in the coach park and a complimentary ticket for a meal in Café Cais !!!

As regards to the feedback from pumpkin, I have to add low branches have never caught my eye on the walk from bog island to the coach park. I am also not convinced building a brand new coach park alongside the railway station would prove a good use of public funds in the present economic climate and I am not convinced it would be much nearer to town anyway.





 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on July 03, 2013, 06:18:00 am
Very quick reply from me.  The Town gets too many coaches to allow parking them all at Mostyn Broadway.  On Bank Holidays we can get up to 120 or more coaches in town and even on an average day the actual number who arrive is not known until they turn up.

The present system has been operating for 20 years and has never had any problems.

I cannot understand the purge by the Attendant unless it was due to the Coach Drivers trying to "beat the system", and to get them back on track.  One will notice that a few Drivers will park anywhere to avoid paying for the days parking!  :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on July 03, 2013, 08:05:08 am
pumpkin this once queen of the welsh resorts , the way the shower that run this town are going we wont have any visitors ,this gestapo lot waiting to punce on locals and visitors [didn,t go to charm school]fester has got an idea ,they could tinker with that one .brian i walk up builder st often the over hang branches are by bathers and the way some drivers speed up there ,when you get to the coach pk notice cccbc except NO resposability for parking in there ,no facilitys there and the walk back into town ,[if pouring down well ]i remember they used to manage the coaches before the coach park on builder st was there and we had a lot more coaches then ,bor and bred but peed off what they are doing ,get a grip before its too late
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 03, 2013, 08:18:29 am
It's rare to see the Coach Park anything approaching even half full when you go past on a Summer afternoon. I see no reason why many more coaches cant be permitted to stay there instead of being shunted off to Builder St. The clue is in the name - Coach Park.  ;D

As regards coaches dropping off/picking up in town, we have many coaches already doing that every day on the Prom outside hotels and it seems to work ok.

Each full coach is the equivalent of many hundreds of pounds in extra takings for the town's traders. We should be doing our utmost to attract more coaches to the town, not put them off by sky high parking fees and making things difficult for them. Or is that a bit too much like common sense?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 03, 2013, 10:26:23 am
Bri, not for the first time recently you disagree with me, and thats fine... but looking at your post in detail you actually DO agree with me because you have used the key words, 'Elderly people'

The current coach park is too far from any Llandudno attraction for 'the elderly'

I speak to them all day long, they are here in town for 5 hours maximum and they spend almost all of it struggling to walk the distance from the coach park and back again.
They can never take a trip on the Tram or the Cable Car.  It's just a poor experience for them.

I constantly hear people saying, 'oh its taken us 2 hours to get to the pier'
Or,  'why can't they drop us off closer to the best part of town'?

The VAST majority of coach travellers are Elderly.  They have given up driving now and are not too good at walking.
But for some reason we force THAT group of people to walk further than everyone else!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: pumpkin on July 03, 2013, 10:38:36 am
Thanks to those who replied to my post. Rang the councils parking office this morning, the lady who answered was polite and tried to help, but has asked the manager to ring me back re what  we do when Builder Street full. To the person who thinks the footpath from the coach park to the town is ok, try taking a walk there again. Once again please bring back the original attendant and apply some common sense, its easier to be helpful than to be a pain.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 03, 2013, 10:44:56 am
I have to agree. It occurs there are two possible solutions: Adapt Gloddaeth to make it possible to drop off and later collect coach guests or - secondly - create a transport system into the town from wherever coaches can drop off. But that would need investment...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: hollins on July 03, 2013, 11:12:19 am
I agree with Fester and he is the one who is getting the first hand feedback from the visitors.
The other thing about parking that far away is that visitors are discouraged not to buy anything in the shops because they cannot manage to carry it back to their coach.
When I can't find a place to park in town I park near Debenhams and carry my shopping back to the car and I am always very glad when I get there as my arms are dropping off by then.
I know visitors are not going to be buying groceries but just a few things from the Pound shop, a book from Smiths and a drink and a sandwich for the trip back would be difficult enough for some.
My dad used to struggle to manage the walk from the Imperial to the pier.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 03, 2013, 11:49:58 am
Many of the elderly people who come by coach have to use taxis to get to this end of town, they just can't walk with luggage, so a drop off could be sensible, trouble is people aren't sensible, if a coach is willing to stop somewhere other than a designated stop it becomes a free for all with "just drop me here" or "just drop me there".
As for coaches parking overnight, they seem to be here, there and everywhere, a popular place, especially for foreign registered ones, is along the centre of Gloddaeth Street, longways on the car park.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 03, 2013, 12:18:13 pm
Fester, by me using two words such as ‘Elderly People’, I fail to comprehend how I actually agree with you with your proposed relocation of the current Coach Park.

Do you know most of the elderly people I see on the pier are far more agile than me?

Perhaps, they are regular customers of yours.

Seriously, Llandudno has a Land Train route from the Pier Gates down to West Shore and back again.

I believe another route from the Coach Park to the Pier Gates for a couple of hours in the morning and from the Pier Gates to the Coach Park for another couple of hours in the afternoon would soon solve your problem especially if it was sponsored by the Pier Company.

From memory, my previous disagreement with you was over your complaint that last weekend’s Triathlon was going to be an ‘obstacle to tourism’.

Was it?


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on July 03, 2013, 12:22:03 pm
 >>>Bri the footpath Pumpkin is talking about is the one down Builders st,as for the coach park today it is full of LLandrillo minibuses.What a disgrace if a parking attendant is booking coaches parked on a coach park,its not their fault CCBC have nobody there to look after them and will these coaches return now they have been fined,i bet there is no charge to park in Eirias park.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 03, 2013, 12:41:37 pm
Thanks, wrex. That was ambiguous in pumkin’s post.

I would be interested to know if any councillors have walked from the coach park into the town, the footpath is covered by low branches in many places,

And you are correct about the other matter.

When I passed earlier there was a cluster of nine vehicles comprising mini-buses, people carriers and one private car.

I did notice a female enforcement officer booking a visiting coach

FYI, there is a Disability Swimming Gala on this morning in Llandudno Swimming Centre so I am guessing all those other vehicles will be displaying blue disabled badges.

However, the sign at the entrance on Mostyn Broadway clearly states COACHES ONLY so something obviously needs to be done quickly to resolve this issue.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on July 03, 2013, 01:47:33 pm
Point one:  Llandudno was never build to accept tourists and day trippers travelling by coach, and like many other aspects of the infrastructure cannot cope with the sheer volume.  The streets of the town and the parking facilities are stretched beyond their capability and can give no further, for either cars or coaches.

Consequently about 20 years ago a system was introduced for the coaching traffic to make the best use of the facilities available.  Coaches delivering to hotels were allowed to drop their passengers at the hotel and to assist in this matter even special parking bays were later introduced.  Day visitors had to disembark their coaches at Mostyn Broadway.   For any period of parking by either type of coach they had to use the purpose built Builder Street Coach Park.  A facility was put there for the drivers to dump the coaches toilet which saved them a trip to Llandudno Junction.  The short walk back to Town did not seem to bother most of them.

Apart from the attendant at Builder Street there was also an Attendant at Mostyn Broadway to give help and advice.  The Parking Fees are on a Pay and Display basis and the Policing, to ensure compliance with the system, is in the hands of the Parking Department.

If the Drivers followed the system, there would be no hassle, and no Fixed Penalties.

The Local Parking Orders prohibit coach parking anywhere in the Town, but to save the parking charge many drivers will chance their arm.   In all cases, I suspect that their employers would refund any Parking Charges they have to pay.

Use, rather than abuse the system and all will be well.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on July 03, 2013, 08:59:28 pm
   Right at the end of all these posts about coach parking. How did I miss it? My biggest hobby horse.
   However, surprised to see that no one mentions the "heritage", open topped double decker.
   As no one has mentioned it I presume that noone knows about it. So I will give you a very brief summary.
   Last year the pier owners were concerned by the number of potential customers who stated that quote "its too far for us to walk from the coach park to the pier."
  So, the pier contacted Alpine the local coach operator. Can you help? So Alpine spruced up an open top and gave it a vintage paint job and off you go. A shuttle service, coach park to pier and return.
  Obviously this cost money, and someone somewhere was going to have to pay. So, a charge was made for riding on it.
  Don't see any sign of it this year. Don't think I need to tell you why.  Mike
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bellringer on July 03, 2013, 09:28:18 pm
There are four of those open-topped buses parked in the Alpine yard most nights, so what do they do with them. Surely they can't all be on the Llandudno/Conwy run. And in terms of passengers carried, I often see one between the two towns with virtually no passengers on it - perhaps they have all 'hopped off'!!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 03, 2013, 09:33:36 pm
I think I'm right in saying that despite having a fundamental 'right to demonstrate', there is an application process that any potential demo must go through in order to be permitted.
They can be disallowed on several grounds, but rarely are.

If these organisations have not applied, than it cannot simply be assumed the demo will go ahead, and can be banned.

If these organisations HAVE applied and been permitted, then the CCBC and Police Chief responsible should be immediately sacked.
It is entirely inappropriate to have any such rally in a seaside town, especially on a busy day when children and pensioners are here to ENJOY themselves, not be subjected to hatred and vitriol.

There are 6 weeks for those in authority to see sense, and nip this lunacy in the bud.

Politics does not come in to it, when I see that certain people on facebook are just looking forward to coming to Llandudno on August 10th to 'crack some heads'

We have now received E Mail from OWL ( NW Police) asking us to inform them of any large groups of single men trying to make bookings-- some have already booked ( not with us thank goodness)

Strikes me something bigger is afoot than people think.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on July 03, 2013, 11:13:38 pm
There are four of those open-topped buses parked in the Alpine yard most nights, so what do they do with them. Surely they can't all be on the Llandudno/Conwy run. And in terms of passengers carried, I often see one between the two towns with virtually no passengers on it - perhaps they have all 'hopped off'!!


When I worked there they had two out on the road operating the Llandudno/Conwy service at any one time plus they would need a third as a spare to cover for a breakdown or if one was in for a service/MOT etc... Maybe the fourth is the one Mike referred to as the shuttle bus.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 05, 2013, 12:58:25 am
I think I'm right in saying that despite having a fundamental 'right to demonstrate', there is an application process that any potential demo must go through in order to be permitted.
They can be disallowed on several grounds, but rarely are.

If these organisations have not applied, than it cannot simply be assumed the demo will go ahead, and can be banned.

If these organisations HAVE applied and been permitted, then the CCBC and Police Chief responsible should be immediately sacked.
It is entirely inappropriate to have any such rally in a seaside town, especially on a busy day when children and pensioners are here to ENJOY themselves, not be subjected to hatred and vitriol.

There are 6 weeks for those in authority to see sense, and nip this lunacy in the bud.

Politics does not come in to it, when I see that certain people on facebook are just looking forward to coming to Llandudno on August 10th to 'crack some heads'

We have now received E Mail from OWL ( NW Police) asking us to inform them of any large groups of single men trying to make bookings-- some have already booked ( not with us thank goodness)

Strikes me something bigger is afoot than people think.

CCBC have confirmed that those intending to demonstrate have NOT yet applied to do so through the required channels.
They do have have the power to disallow, amend the route or defer the event.
They also need to liaise with the Chief Constable as events such as this can be disallowed due to policing resources.
We all know that CCBC is a very sensible and wise group of people, so I trust they will use their powers adroitly.

Strange though that Wetherspoons, Cottage Loaf and others have already decided to close on that day, thus making it a victory for the disruptive elements and they have concluded that it will go ahead.
Official police advice is for businesses to remain open on that day, and not let the rally disrupt the town's usual business.
Easier said than done.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 05, 2013, 12:59:15 am
Fester, by me using two words such as ‘Elderly People’, I fail to comprehend how I actually agree with you with your proposed relocation of the current Coach Park.

Do you know most of the elderly people I see on the pier are far more agile than me?

Perhaps, they are regular customers of yours.

Seriously, Llandudno has a Land Train route from the Pier Gates down to West Shore and back again.

I believe another route from the Coach Park to the Pier Gates for a couple of hours in the morning and from the Pier Gates to the Coach Park for another couple of hours in the afternoon would soon solve your problem especially if it was sponsored by the Pier Company.

From memory, my previous disagreement with you was over your complaint that last weekend’s Triathlon was going to be an ‘obstacle to tourism’.

Was it?

Yes.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on July 05, 2013, 12:00:06 pm
Strange how the pubs don;t just employ door men for the day.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 06, 2013, 12:03:58 am
Strange how the pubs don;t just employ door men for the day.

A good point Wrex, that's what the Pier Company intend to do... and have only one gate open to make it easy to secure. (The Main entrance on the Prom)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on July 06, 2013, 06:24:54 am
How can a company like Wetherspoons just say ok and shut up shop for the day in the middle of summer, i know NWP over react when it comes to football matches at Wrexham and this is the same,they are practically closeing the town down because of a handfull of thugs,common sense is never used.Have doormen on everypub,if the numbers get out of hand then demand closure,let them have their demo and sheperd them out of town.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 06, 2013, 08:02:36 am
According to Sue Nash, manager of Victoria Centre, in a letter to her tenants; North Wales Police have not instructed any business to close.  Two pubs have a national policy that in the event of such rallies they close. That has nothing to do with NWP. If other pubs have chosen to close that has been their choice.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 06, 2013, 08:07:33 am
The letter!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 10, 2013, 10:02:09 pm
Latest from North Wales Police regarding August rally:

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing to you in relation to a proposed Protest in Llandudno on Saturday 10th August 2013. I am aware that there has been media coverage surrounding this event which has generated concern amongst residents, and the business community. I am writing to you as a valued member of this community and to provide you with an insight into what North Wales Police and our Partner Agencies are doing.

 

We are aware of and preparing for a potential planned event by the North Wales Alliance Gogledd Cymru (NWAGC),and that a group known as Unite the Union intend to hold a counter demonstration in Llandudno on the same day. Both groups state their intention is to undertake a peaceful protest. It remains unclear how many will attend either demonstration. Facebook pages for each organisation indicate around 100 supporters have stated an intention to attend on the day. Clearly we are monitoring the situation and will continue to do so.

 

European Human Rights law, enshrine an individual’s right to carry out peaceful protest. Indeed for the police, national guidance developed through good practice and case law now directs that our starting point should always be the presumption in favour of facilitating peaceful assembly and not preventing it from taking place. Article 11 ECHR places a duty the police not to prevent, hinder or apply unreasonable restrictions to a peaceful assembly. In addition we must take reasonable and appropriate measures to protect a peaceful protest.

 

An order to ban any march can only be authorised by the Home Secretary.

 

Such an order would only be authorised if there was evidence that the powers available to the police to place restrictions on a march were insufficient to prevent serious public disorder.

 

I should add that although circumstances exist where it is possible to seek the Home Secretary’s agreement to ban a public procession no such power exists in relation to banning a public assembly.

 

The Public Order Act 1988 provides the necessary powers to place restrictions on both marches and public assemblies under certain conditions. These restrictions must be proportionate, legitimate and necessary and must also stand scrutiny when held up against both UK legislation and European Human Rights Law. Again the use of these powers remains under constant review.

 

 

Despite assurances from NWAGC and Unite the Union that they intend to hold a peaceful demonstration it is recognised that there remains a risk of disorder. Given this risk and the uncertainty regarding numbers taking part on the day a significant policing operation is being planned. The primary purpose of that operation is to facilitate lawful and peaceful protest however the resourcing of the event will ensure appropriate contingency measures are in place to minimise the risk of serious disorder and minimise the disruption to the local community.

 

Recent media reports have suggested that the police have advised local businesses to close. This is not the case. No business has been advised to close.

 

Local officers will continue to  work closely with local community representatives. We have a good relationship with people in the communities that we serve and we will talk to them about any concerns they might have and reassure them that public safety is our priority.

 

In summary, North Wales Police continues to be in dialogue with the two groups as we seek to discharge our legal obligations to facilitate peaceful protest. Together with our partners we will keep the situation under constant review to ensure the safety of the public, including the use of any specific police powers, is appropriate, proportionate and lawful. We will continue to share this information with you as a representative and key stakeholder within the community. 

 

I trust this response addresses the concerns you may have and I would ask that if you hold any information that you wish to share our preferred contact would be Northwalespolice@nthwales.pnn.police.uk  or the Force Control Room on 101.

 

We are particularly keen to hear of increased bookings from large groups on or around the date of the protest and I would encourage you to share such information with North Wales Police as directed above.

 

Please feel free to share the content of this letter with your colleagues in other business forums.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

 

Steve Williams

Uwcharolygydd Dros dro /Temporary Superintendent

Gwasanaethau Plismona Lleol  - Local Policing Services

Estyniad/Extension: 88751
Llinell Union/Direct Line: 01745 588751

Symudol/Mobile: 07810 528556

E mail : Steven.Williams@nthwales.pnn.police.uk
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 11, 2013, 12:43:47 am
Thanks for the update Jack.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 11, 2013, 07:12:14 am
Thanks, Jack.  Very useful.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on July 11, 2013, 12:41:08 pm
Very strange! The counter protest is not from 'a group known as Unite the Union'
As this 'group' has over three million members I'd expect that to be a pretty large counter demo  $angry$

Given they don't even know the specifics of who they are dealing with, I imagine this whole thing is going to be chaos.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 11, 2013, 12:56:05 pm
Both groups are from well outside the area and just seem to be using Llandudno as a playground. I suggest they both b****r off.  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 11, 2013, 01:13:13 pm
After alot of correspondence with police, council and other parties on behalf of businesses and Charity Shops we have been told by the police inspector that the only person who can call off any Demo is the Home Secretary.

No one knows how many people will be involved, or where the demo is to be held within the town. The only info which has come our way is that no road closures have been applied for. This was not in writing, but by word of mouth from someone on the Council, so whether it was placatory or true I wouldn't like to say.

Our 'Demo folder ' of E-Mails is now topping 40.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 11, 2013, 11:55:26 pm
My brother-in-law is a police officer with the mounted division.
He and his colleagues get sent to all the major disturbances, football match flash-points etc, and they are well trained to deal with such events.
He has been present at all previous EDL and counter demonstrations, in the North of England and elsewhere.
They use officers to infiltrate these groups, they have 'spotters' to wheedle the ring-leaders out and many other tactics at their disposal.

But he tells me that no back up has been requested or suggested for the Llandudno event, and that quite often these events are a damp squib.
If it isn't a damp squib, then I suggest that the NW Police very quickly meet to ensure that they do have the correct level of resource to contain such a potentially volatile event.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Linda on July 11, 2013, 11:59:25 pm
Pretty worrying time for all, even though I dont live in Llandudno my niece is to attend a Wedding at the main church on mostyn street on that day. Its really not fair for the whole wedding party as well, all that planning then wondering if there will be any problems. I feel for everyone concerned.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 12, 2013, 12:00:15 pm
My OH heard yesterday where the demo is beginning and where it is going, so someone either knows or is making it up. If I can get this confirmed I will post same, but not until.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 12, 2013, 12:28:11 pm
I believe its finishing at the Cenotaph. Probably starting down by the Theatre. Does that tally with what you've heard?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 12, 2013, 12:31:10 pm
If it isn't a damp squib, then I suggest that the NW Police very quickly meet to ensure that they do have the correct level of resource to contain such a potentially volatile event.
I'm suggesting this sort of response:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 12, 2013, 02:36:11 pm
I believe its finishing at the Cenotaph. Probably starting down by the Theatre. Does that tally with what you've heard?

More or less.

Have you heard the rumour about certain businesses boarding over windows? Or is that another red herring?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 12, 2013, 04:26:01 pm
My gut feel is that it will be an enormous damp squib, with maybe 30 people on either side at most.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 12, 2013, 04:36:17 pm
I agree.  The only snag would be if the weather was like this. All the major riots in the UK have taken place in heat waves or hot conditions.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 12, 2013, 05:58:35 pm
OMG It's being so cheerful that keeps you going !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 12, 2013, 06:14:20 pm
 WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 12, 2013, 07:12:43 pm
A user on Oscar's blog called 'Red Flag' has published this useful analysis of the situation:

Why Llandudno? Basically the main group - English Defence League (EDL) has been pressuring the smaller groups in Wales and Scotland to pull their fingers out while the murder of Dmr Rigby and the 'grooming cases are fresh in the public's minds. The EDLare p*ssed off with having to provide the bulk of attendees at non-England events. So the Welsh Defence League (WDL) has made a few dismal attempts in South Wales and the NWAGC has being doing likewise in the past couple of months - Connahs Quay, Wrecsam etc - again with a laughable turnout (much to the annoyance of the EDL). Same thing in Scotland where the SDL tried to get involved in the Bedroom Tax = and were given two fingers.

Bit strange the Police asking for info on large bookings. Chosen Modus Operendi is coaches picking up football grounds of ill repute, paid for by the EDL bank-roller Alan Lake, and dropping as close to the nearest Wetherspoons as possible.

Why Llandudno? Because the WDL won't come this far north and the NWAGC only need a taxi so they will behoping the EDL will beef them up on what will be a busy saturday tourist-wise, hopefully with good weather and thanks to the A55/M53/M6/M56 is within an hour by coach of some of the most 'tasty' football firms in the country - such as the Stoke Norty-Forty, Burnley Suicid Squad, Oldham FYC, Liverpool Urchins, City Guvnors, United Men in Black, Everton Cutters etc etc who will all be available due to lack of games.

That's why Llandudno. Probably won't work though because most of the EDL can't be a*sed with Wales and Scotland so it will probably be around half-a-dozen NWAGC again (at least 2 of which in Wrecsam the other month weren't Welsh they were English living in Wales)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 12, 2013, 09:29:22 pm
Why Llandudno? Because the WDL won't come this far north and the NWAGC only need a taxi so they will behoping the EDL will beef them up on what will be a busy saturday tourist-wise, hopefully with good weather and thanks to the A55/M53/M6/M56 is within an hour by coach of some of the most 'tasty' football firms in the country -[/b] such as the Stoke Norty-Forty, Burnley Suicid Squad, Oldham FYC, Liverpool Urchins, City Guvnors, United Men in Black, Everton Cutters etc etc who will all be available due to lack of games.

http://englishdefenceleague.org/ (http://englishdefenceleague.org/)

Not racist-not violent-no longer silent.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 12, 2013, 09:41:33 pm
The EDL "leader" Paul Harris, took Tommy Robinsons' name. Tommy Robinson was a well known "face" in Luton Town's hooligan firm the MIGS.

Another AKA is Stephen Yaxley Lennon. http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/stephen-yaxley-lennon/ (http://www.loonwatch.com/tag/stephen-yaxley-lennon/)

Actually, Robinson isn’t his real name, and his prison sentence has nothing to do with standing up for anyone’s freedom. Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (his real name, or possibly another alias) pleaded guilty to using someone else’s passport to illegally enter the United States, in order to speak at one of Geller’s anti-Muslim rallies. And he resorted to this ruse because he was previously barred from the US due to his violent criminal record.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 12, 2013, 11:59:15 pm
Quote... ''Probably won't work though because most of the EDL can't be a*sed with Wales and Scotland so it will probably be around half-a-dozen NWAGC again''

That concurs with what my brother in law says,  apparently the hard core nutters of the EDL and similar groups will not be bothered travelling as far as Llandudno.  He is quite certain it will be a non-event.

I just hope that it's not 'famous last words'

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 13, 2013, 08:22:41 am
Snap !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 13, 2013, 08:51:37 am
Dave's right;  most of the 'instant riot' events (just add hot yobs) are bussed in jobs. Mind you, just to keep Nem's assessment of my sunny and optimistic disposition confirmed, remember Margate in '64?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm)

 :o :o :o
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 13, 2013, 10:36:07 am
remember Margate in '64?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm)

 :o :o :o
Were you there wielding a bicycle chain, Ian?  8)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 13, 2013, 10:40:53 am
You clearly know an excellent Orthodontist...

 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 15, 2013, 06:31:56 am
remember Margate in '64?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/18/newsid_2511000/2511245.stm)

 :o :o :o
Were you there wielding a bicycle chain, Ian?  8)

But two years later, most Mods had turned their attentions to the burgeoning, more laid-back, hippie culture.  ;)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2013, 07:13:14 am
Rarht arhn, Man...  {}{}
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Big Alan on July 15, 2013, 07:52:22 pm
Quote
Were you there wielding a bicycle chain, Ian?  8)

HALEWOOD CHAINS!!!!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2013, 08:16:47 pm
Quote
Were you there wielding a bicycle chain, Ian?  8)

HALEWOOD CHAINS!!!!
:o  8) I hope you were making them and not wielding them, Big Alan!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 15, 2013, 08:31:13 pm
Lots of facebook and twitter chat saying that the demo on the 10th is postponed.

https://www.facebook.com/UAFpage/posts/10151511020825814 (https://www.facebook.com/UAFpage/posts/10151511020825814)

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 15, 2013, 09:03:06 pm
More about it here:

http://casualsunited.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/llandudno-demo-postponed-edl/ (http://casualsunited.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/llandudno-demo-postponed-edl/)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on July 15, 2013, 09:23:39 pm
Let's hope it gets postponed permanently.  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Big Alan on July 15, 2013, 09:45:34 pm
Nice one Dave, Halewood Chains is a gang from my youth, if you watch LFC games you will also see a banner from my old pub, now sadly knocked down but the legend lives on, The Leather Bottle.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jack on July 16, 2013, 04:49:42 pm
North Wales Police confirm protest suspended:

http://www.north-wales.police.uk/news__appeals/latest_news/protest_suspended.aspx (http://www.north-wales.police.uk/news__appeals/latest_news/protest_suspended.aspx)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 16, 2013, 07:12:09 pm
I suppose what I have seen this evening must be deemed an obstacle to tourism.

This evening, we enjoyed a family meal at the Afon Conwy on Glan Conwy corner.

There must be around 100 families of visitors staying in the Premier Inn next door every evening.

As soon as you enter the car park, there is a large Tourist Information display provided by CCBC with two large sections for advertising posters.

One is empty.

The other shows photographs of the top ten attractions in Llandudno.

The first photo is of a theatre and it is entitled the North Wales Theatre.

I believe it was renamed Venue Cymru in January 2007.

Who is charged with supervising this display and why isn’t it updated and fully utilised?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on July 16, 2013, 07:34:46 pm
Yet another astute observation from a TTF Member, that will no doubt go unheeded, and a question that will also go unanswered.

Well spotted Bri!  $3towns$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on July 17, 2013, 03:46:53 pm
I suppose what I have seen this evening must be deemed an obstacle to tourism.

This evening, we enjoyed a family meal at the Afon Conwy on Glan Conwy corner.

There must be around 100 families of visitors staying in the Premier Inn next door every evening.


I think my concern would be that 100 families of visitors booked into a hotel that according to Premier Inn's website is in Llandudno only to find themselves stranded five miles away with only a petrol station for entertainment  :o.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 18, 2013, 01:24:02 am
More about it here:

http://casualsunited.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/llandudno-demo-postponed-edl/ (http://casualsunited.wordpress.com/2013/07/15/llandudno-demo-postponed-edl/)

"A blog for peaceful hooligans"  $lol$

More like, "A blog for hooligans too old to be hooligans anymore"
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 18, 2013, 01:31:43 am
Nice one Dave, Halewood Chains is a gang from my youth, if you watch LFC games you will also see a banner from my old pub, now sadly knocked down but the legend lives on, The Leather Bottle.

I remember chasing you down Walton Breck Road Alan.   $bounce$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 18, 2013, 01:35:57 am
I suppose what I have seen this evening must be deemed an obstacle to tourism.

This evening, we enjoyed a family meal at the Afon Conwy on Glan Conwy corner.

There must be around 100 families of visitors staying in the Premier Inn next door every evening.


I think my concern would be that 100 families of visitors booked into a hotel that according to Premier Inn's website is in Llandudno only to find themselves stranded five miles away with only a petrol station for entertainment  :o.

They could always go to Cineworld in "Llandudno" http://www.cineworld.co.uk/cinemas/llandudno/information (http://www.cineworld.co.uk/cinemas/llandudno/information)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Big Alan on July 18, 2013, 07:03:32 pm
Nice one Dave, Halewood Chains is a gang from my youth, if you watch LFC games you will also see a banner from my old pub, now sadly knocked down but the legend lives on, The Leather Bottle.

I remember chasing you down Walton Breck Road Alan.   $bounce$

These colours don't run  8)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on July 19, 2013, 04:53:24 am
Nice one Dave, Halewood Chains is a gang from my youth, if you watch LFC games you will also see a banner from my old pub, now sadly knocked down but the legend lives on, The Leather Bottle.

I remember chasing you down Walton Breck Road Alan.   $bounce$

These colours don't run  8)

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: MacMillan on August 06, 2013, 02:08:25 am
In recognition of this, the  General Manager of Llandudno Pier, Simon Mason, has this week been making a direct attempt to divert coaches from the coach park, and to drop off their passengers near the Pier
In fairness, he has suggested that rather than all coaches drop off at the pier, there could be a fairer system whereby some coaches come to the pier, some to Gloddaeth St and others to the coach park.  (Perhaps other places too)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 06, 2013, 06:03:08 am
Interesting, but why the links to shoe adverts?  ???
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 06, 2013, 06:33:29 am
I wonder if CCBC will allow the owners of the Summit Café, Bodafon Farm and the West Shore Café to do something similar.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 06, 2013, 08:46:03 am
MacMillan is a spambot, I doubt you'll get much sense out of it.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 07, 2013, 12:13:26 am
MacMillan is a spambot, I doubt you'll get much sense out of it.  :laugh:

...or the GM of Llandudno Pier.  :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jonty Hammers on August 07, 2013, 02:17:55 pm
Llandudno's damned to a rather peculiar fate. Forced to advertise itself as a seaside resort, because that's the reputation it's built up in the past century or so; but thanks to mishandling of sea defenses, the beach which is supposed the prime location in the town doesn't actually have much in the way of a...er...beach. (ADDENDUM - Alright - it has West Shore. Can't knock that, as it is a fairly lovely beach. But the town built up its reputation around the North Shore, and therein lies the rub.)

The apparent gap has been decorated with all the usual bits and bobs associated with seaside resorts, from donkeys to deckchairs, but it's a ludicrous and rather saddening situation when hundreds of visitors are corralled into the relatively small stretch of sand between the pier and the slipway.

Have to say I'm personally more fond of "the beach" (rock-pools; the occasional glimpse of sea-life; surfers etc) rather than "the seaside";  made up of candy-floss; the wurbling of Hammond Organs; straw hats; and screaming gulls if you ask me! In any case, the old Blackpool model no longer draws the crowds like it used to. Llandudno, Rhyl and Colwyn Bay all chased that prize, but the old adage of "it all went down hill when package holidays became cheap" still stands.

I've always tried to stress that Llandudno keeps trying to please the elderly when - forgive me for being brutally frank - that market cannot last forever. The people who came here during the 40s/50s and enjoyed summer holidays here are dwindling. And I'm terrified it'll start to resort to tackiness in a bid to keep people here. 

And there's probably already been a decent bit of chatter about it on the forum, but has anyone else seen that report by the Centre for Social Justice, covering the problems faced by seaside resorts throughout the UK? Makes an example of Rhyl as having gone downhill largely because the old hotels and guest houses made GREAT multiple-occupancy housing, attracting large amounts of pensioners and people of low-income. This has a knock-on effect on the following generations and is then difficult to get out of.

The only buffer Llandudno has is its large number of still-operating hotels and guest houses, and employers like the shops, large and small alike. Not to mention the fact that Rhyl, and to a lesser extent, Colwyn Bay, are there to "absorb" (awful word, I know!) the amount of people coming from the North-West down the coast. Once said buffer goes, that's it. Prepare for the downward spiral.

But that same report mentions how towns like Brighton and Eastbourne (or was it Bournemouth? A case of Bourne identities, eh? ???) have survived by - and this is the kicker - FOCUSING ON OTHER SECTORS. Llandudno risks a death by throwing the vast part of its eggs into a big resort-shaped basket. I visited Brighton with the family a while back and it's impressive what they've done there.

I'm not suggesting we ignore the resort part of the Llandudno cake as it's obviously important, but more needs to be done to help shops; small businesses; big businesses etc. Attracting private investment form a large firm would do Llandudno no harm at all.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on August 07, 2013, 04:13:19 pm
The apparent gap has been decorated with all the usual bits and bobs associated with seaside resorts, from donkeys to deckchairs, but it's a ludicrous and rather saddening situation when hundreds of visitors are corralled into the relatively small stretch of sand between the pier and the slipway.

Sand?  :D

Isn't that Wrexs' favorite spot?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 07, 2013, 05:04:11 pm
Jonty said.
I visited Brighton with the family a while back and it's impressive what they've done there.

Wrex would go mad there, unless they have replaced all the pebble beach with sand!    Buckets and spades are a no go in Brighton.  It is however famous for its variety of life!    ;)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 07, 2013, 05:55:13 pm
I've always tried to stress that Llandudno keeps trying to please the elderly when - forgive me for being brutally frank - that market cannot last forever. The people who came here during the 40s/50s and enjoyed summer holidays here are dwindling.
Do people no longer get older then, Jonty? People are living longer and longer, and as they get older, they will all want somewhere pleasant with a gentler pace of life to go to on holiday. Enter the Queen of the Welsh Resorts. The early retired (50+) group is probably the most affluent in society; these are the people we need to attract.

The CFSJ report is here, if anyone would like to read it:
http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/UserStorage/pdf/Pdf%20reports/Turning-the-Tide.pdf (http://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/UserStorage/pdf/Pdf%20reports/Turning-the-Tide.pdf)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 08, 2013, 12:06:19 am
Jonty makes several good points though, and one of them is lost in the debate about whether the elderly population get replenished by those who are getting old.

Yes, of course people are living longer, but those who are elderly NOW, seem to have a few bob to spend on themselves and their grand-kids.
It may be from the sale of nice houses, comfortable pensions, savings or whatever.

But, (and here's the the rub)... every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren.
However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'
Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?

5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.
Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.
It will be a case of letting kids play on the X-box for 364 days a year, and then open their new version of it on Xmas day.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Trojan on August 08, 2013, 12:59:14 am
but the old adage of "it all went down hill when package holidays became cheap" still stands.

Hit the nail on the head there Jonty.  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Gaylord Screwsby on August 08, 2013, 08:44:27 pm
Jonty makes several good points though, and one of them is lost in the debate about whether the elderly population get replenished by those who are getting old.

Yes, of course people are living longer, but those who are elderly NOW, seem to have a few bob to spend on themselves and their grand-kids.
It may be from the sale of nice houses, comfortable pensions, savings or whatever.

But, (and here's the the rub)... every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren.
However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'
Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?

5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.
Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.
It will be a case of letting kids play on the X-box for 364 days a year, and then open their new version of it on Xmas day.

You've obviously been listening to me telling my kids the piggy bank is empty.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 09, 2013, 08:56:12 am
Quote
every day I see middle aged people, or 40-somethings who are the next generation of 'elderlies'... they have precious little money, no properties to sell, no fat pensions to cash in, but they have loads of kids/grandchildren. However, in the past they could afford to spoil them, but now all I hear is.....'put that down, you had an ice cream, there's no more money'

They may tell their children they have no money but that - interestingly - is how a lot of extremely wealthy people get both to make and keep their money. You're probably meeting a lot of closet millionaires, F :-)

Quote
5 years from now, no one will be able to afford a day out, or a holiday of any kind.

I thin that's being unduly pessimistic, but Llandudno's best days are behind it, beyond a doubt. In the '50s families came, often by bus or train, for a week or two at a time and yet, even then, the busiest weeks were the so-called 'factory fortnights'.  Patterns have changed, now, but more importantly so have expectations.  While I was uploading the 1950 Llandudno Holiday brochure I did a few quick sums, and discovered that a family of four who wanted a week in the Hydro, for example, would have paid - in real terms - what it would cost a family of four to fly to Orlando and stay on iDrive.  Among the many problems the town faces is an ageing and expensive-to-maintain hotel sector. The Clarence renovation could provide a way forward, but gutting and rebuilding are most like the only options to make some of the hotels viable propositions. 

Quote
Those who can afford it, will find everything closed down, as there are insufficient customers 'year-round' to make it viable to pay the rent.

The past few years have seen a reversal of the trend whereby many cafes closed seasonally. The cable car, one of the premier attractions, will probably be defeated by excess winds too often in the off-season but the trams could certainly operate for longer than they do.  That, however, would probably depend on the Orme summit opening for longer.

I think if the period since 2001 has been notable for one thing, it's been the loss of confidence and the unwillingness to take chances. And that does much more damage than anything else.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Jonty Hammers on August 09, 2013, 04:11:18 pm
In response to DaveR:

Indeed sir! People do still get old, but the point I was aiming at (and which, admittedly, didn't come off all too clear in my post) is that Llandudno is only aiming at a certain generation. While I don't doubt that older people of any generation would prefer a more leisurely pace once they enter "later" life, the tastes and things they expect during that time will change; purely because tastes change over time. I suppose this is why nowadays, when better-off people retire, rather than heading over to Margate, Llandudno etc as their parents did, they are now moving to the Continent.

We do of course need to attract people in that bracket, who have a greater disposable income - but unlike their parents' generation, they will search out for something other than the mix of comfortable benches, candy floss and reasonably-priced tea.

Fester covers the other angle (that of the people that don't have much money to spend) rather well - though in answer to his question of "Why bring kids to the seaside, if you can't afford to treat them?", I'd say the day out at the seaside is thought of as a treat in and of itself. Not to generalise, but a lot of these families will come from large urban centres where the kids will have little chance to see the seaside or what is usually termed "the great outdoors". Giving them the chance to play on a beach is a bit of a treat.

Though I also concede that while it might be no harm in adding an ice cream or bucket or spade to that list, in many instances, the family involved has scraped just enough to afford to get to Llandudno, stay in a hotel and pay for their dinners/breakfasts while there. The extra top-up costs of amusements; souvenirs; sweets; burgers etc can add up to a fair bit when all taken in to consideration, especially when as Fester notes, you have a load of kids/grandkids all of whom you want to treat equally.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: No 6 on August 09, 2013, 10:25:35 pm
When I was a kid my grandparents or parents would pop us in the back of a Ford Pop, or worse, our old Ford van, and trundle off along the A roads in a seemingly never ending journey to Llandudno.

For my parents - with the farm - it was often out and back in a day. But grandad and grandma ran to few days away. I do still recall the trams, steam trains, open top buses, Prof Cadman's Punch and Judy, and bands on the stand, trips from the pier, and a whole more innocent way of life.

The intervening years have seen costs, and speed, of travel change out of all recognition, and the British tourism market more or less give up an unequal struggle. The people who stay at home are generally those who can't afford to fly, don't want to, or are in no position to, the insufferable or the incapable. No one should have to suffer the former - the latter - poor souls - should not form the staple fodder of any business witha forward looking outlook.

Time my journey right and I can do SK14 to Llandudno prom in in less then 90 mins. No need to stay in stuffy outdated hotels. I can eat when I get back, so no need to patronise third rate eateries with no intention of selling a quality product. No need to spend in the same chain stores I see at home, and with the calibre of vehicle passing for trains, and coaches, these days with your legs round your neck - I would rather have my choice of speed, temperature, music and company thank you!

Across the extremes of Liverpool Bay, Blackpool and Llandudno stare at each other, all but out of sight, and as different as chalk and cheese in the markets they serve and the way they have developed.

The iron hand of Mostyn Estates has stopped all but the most innocent of tourism developments in North Wales. No blaring night clubs or discos, no vast amusement arcades, but - equally, no night time atmosphere at all.  Wouldn't the summit complex as a high class eatery with supporting twinkling trams be a winner? If some of the hotels on the front opened their doors and windows to the bay and to business, perhaps people would circulate more and test out the market, rather than vegetate in their booked hotel.

Get a restauranteur of name into the old Grand Pavilion site - CPO it if possible, and bring some life to the prom - yes - bands! but some rock, some country, and some celtic, and bring the town to life after seven o clock, perhaps even one day - toastracks to the Little Orme again - in your dreams!

Some night life is an absolute necessity to bring some evening atmosphere back - but NOT - oh no! most definitely not - the innumerable stag and hen parties of Blackpool. or the fate that has taken over everything behind the golden mile, square miles of boarding houses turned over to DSS - Llandudno has avoided that with its retirement market outbidding the buy to let crowd.

In summary - daytime - Llandudno needs little change in its offer - perhaps a better park and ride scenario - but after six - it needs a rocket, but a subtle, well tuned one to match the daytime tastes of its patrons.

What it must not do is stand still.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 09, 2013, 11:25:06 pm
Very perceptive, No.6  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 10, 2013, 12:29:34 am
Jonty makes several, erudite, articulate points, but ultimately the main thrust is economically naive.

You see, there is nothing wrong (ostensibly) with having a free day wandering around the Orme, or climbing up it.
There is most certainly a place for that.
But more and more these days that is all visitors can AFFORD to do.

So, investment will stagnate, rents will NEVER fall, and less and less businesses will be able to survive.

The phrase I hear most often from visitors, more than any other by far is..... 'why is everything closed?

The inescapable answer to that is, 'if they were economically viable to be open, they would be'



Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 10, 2013, 08:45:42 am
Quote
Wouldn't the summit complex as a high class eatery with supporting twinkling trams be a winner?

Interesting - and appealing - idea. I can see only two problems: for high-class eateries, people like to dress up. In the autumn and winter, however, the weather is probably going to deter them - firstly from travelling up in an open tram and, secondly, actually making it from the Tram to the complex.  The second one is the risk element.

But I really like the 'twinkling tram' concept. Riding up there in the dark then looking down on the lights of Llandudno would be an interesting experience, and could prove a profitable one.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 10, 2013, 10:10:50 am
Time to start Three Towns Tourism Enterprises Plc????     :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 15, 2013, 07:44:06 am
Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 15, 2013, 07:52:30 am
Quote
Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

Llandudno's weather is interesting, as you could say it really enjoys its own little micro-climate. The rainfall on the Orme is about 11 inches per year, compared with more than 60 per year in Betws and twice that in Capel.  'Sunny Llandudno' isn't a myth;  the old tourist brochures had it spot on.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: TheMedz on August 15, 2013, 03:55:39 pm
Quote
Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

Llandudno's weather is interesting, as you could say it really enjoys its own little micro-climate. The rainfall on the Orme is about 11 inches per year, compared with more than 60 per year in Betws and twice that in Capel.  'Sunny Llandudno' isn't a myth;  the old tourist brochures had it spot on.

Although it was difficult to tell because of the winds I think all 11 inches of that might have fallen on our house last year. :)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: snowcap on August 15, 2013, 09:20:00 pm
bet that blocked your gutters. lol
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: TheMedz on August 15, 2013, 10:09:15 pm
I just knew the gutters would get a mention. Thanks for the help getting them unblocked.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: snowcap on August 15, 2013, 10:14:40 pm
could,nt resist, your more than welcome
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2013, 12:31:14 am
Quite often the weather forcasts predict bad weather and often the weather turns out to be much better, by that time of cause day trippers have decided not to bother coming! How much does that cost the economy I wonder?

It has a dramatic effect Andy,
Take today for example, a terrible forecast, so the town was very quiet indeed.  Thursday is usually the busiest weekday by some margin.

If the forecast is bad, people don't travel,  if the forecast is good but turns out bad, the town is still quiet as everyone leaves early or stays indoors. (arcades, Wetherspoons etc)

I have been discussing with many other traders just how quiet the town has been over the last 2 weeks, when it is usually heaving. 
My theory is that the previous months heatwave brought everyone to the seaside earlier than usual to take advantage of the spell of good weather, (and we all did quite well out of it) ... but there is limited money around these days, and people will not make multiple visits.

A bumper July has been followed by a disappointing August, and that is true for everyone I speak to.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2013, 09:46:09 am
Although the weather forecast can have an effect on impulse visitors, there are other factors that combine to make yesterday the start of the decline in the tourist season generally for Llandudno. Yesterday was the first set of exams results day across England and Wales, and that has always resulted in a fall-off of visitor numbers. It takes out of circulation any families with children aged 17 - 18, most teachers of sixth form students and anyone concerned with University applications - which is actually a fair few.  The trade-off is a fair few grandparents taking the younger siblings out to keep them out of the way.

Next Thursday is the slightly less significant, but equally huge GCSE results day, when anyone in England and Wales aged 15 - 16 finds out their results and then applies to go to a sixth form, somewhere.  Between them, with all the families involved, the rush for applications, the preparations for going onto the next phase of the education and all the paperwork involved, accommodation sought and grants being applied for yesterday has always been the cut-off for the high season (as it used to be called).

Next weekend's bank holiday is the last hurrah for Llandudno and the tourist season, and then we're back to the package tour visitors, the upcoming Turkey and Tinsel weeks but - importantly - the older visitors who dislike the crowds during the main season.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2013, 09:53:30 am
It's probably worth adding that there's no clear picture of what percentage impulse visitors add to the overall tourism during the season. An impulse visitor is one who, by definition, simply decided to "go out somewhere" in the morning,  Up to, but not including, yesterday, there have been queues of vehicles on the A470 from the roundabout to Pydew down to Black Cat between 1630 and 1730.  Yesterday was the first time I saw almost no queue, so impulse visitors were certainly down. 

Although this group doesn't benefit the hotels that much, it does generally help Llandudno. Most have to eat, so cafes tend to do well, and in fact cafes are probably the most reliable indicators of visitor traffic overall. The other indicators are the old stalwarts: the Orme Trams - which still provide a unique experience - and possibly the Summit complex.

It is this group - impulse visitors, however, that seems most affected by grotty forecasts, as - if they have a day off to go out somewhere - the weather forecast is probably the determining factor about how that day should be spent.  But it badly needs researching, so we can get some idea of the accuracy or otherwise of the surmise.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2013, 10:00:41 am
All those elements that you mention Ian, they certainly add to the cumulative effect of downturn from now on.

However, that simply compounds the downturn from the earlier weeks which has been significantly down on any of the last 4 years.

I believe that the new beach at Colwyn Bay, and the efforts that NW tourist board have put in to get people there have had a significant impact on Llandudno.
Many of my 'regulars' have spent the previous days in CB, (many had never been there before)
Many one-off visitors from England are telling me that Llandudno is a quick stop off, as they were really attracted to Colwyn Bay by adverts and posters in their own area.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 16, 2013, 10:16:24 am
Up to, but not including, yesterday, there have been queues of vehicles on the A470 from the roundabout to Pydew down to Black Cat between 1630 and 1730.  Yesterday was the first time I saw almost no queue, so impulse visitors were certainly down. 

Ian, we went to Afon Conwy to eat last night and we got caught up in a traffic queue from the top of the hill right down to the Black Cat roundabout just before 5.30pm so I am afraid yesterday was no different.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2013, 10:16:44 am
I wonder how the cafes in CB are doing, then?  Of the kiosks still open, have they reported an upturn in business? It'd be interesting to know the full effect of the work being done and the money being spent on advertising it.  CB has always had the better beach, of course, but in the late '80s and throughout the '90s the tourist trade all but disappeared.

It's interesting, however;  for as long as I can remember (and throughout my involvement with the Extravaganza from its inception) people have always said the same sorts of things: "Oh, bookings are well down on last year" was the commonest and - curiously - a friend who owns a hotel in Betws has - without fail - said the same thing every year since I've known him in the mid '90s.  Now, we accept there's a long-term deterioration in the holiday trade for Llandudno and the financial situation in which we find ourselves now (and which, to be fair, seems to be a regular feature of the UK for as long as I can remember) doesn't help matters, but there's possibly a reason why new cafes are springing up all over the place, and why the Clarence is being renovated. The Clarence work is going to cost a fair bit, I'd have thought, and I don't image the bean-counters will have gone ahead without researching the area and visitor patterns very carefully beforehand.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2013, 10:18:34 am
Quote
Ian, we went to Afon Conwy to eat last night and we got caught up in a traffic queue from the top of the hill right down to the Black Cat roundabout just before 5.30pm so I am afraid yesterday was no different.

Interesting... That suggests Fester is wrong, then, in his assumption the season was down. If there were still that number of visitors, maybe they're all on second trips and avoiding the pier, perhaps?    WWW

In all fairness, I should probably have added that the queues at the time we drove the road were much lower, and that was about 1630.  On previous weeks, they've been much longer at that time.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 16, 2013, 10:38:50 am
That’s nothing new, Ian.

There are lots me and Fester disagree on.

Even we have often given the pier a miss this summer as it is always so busy when we reach the pier gates.

Perhaps, pedestrians don’t get as far as Fester’s Emporium on the Pier because they turn back if they begin to meet an obstruction or a bottleneck.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 16, 2013, 10:51:12 am
Back to the weather forcasts, twice in the last few months we were going to classic car shows, both out of the area, but due to the weather forcasts on the day decided not to go. We later found out that both days were ok and wish we had gone!  :rage: I think the forecasters are being over pessimistic ever since the big storm of 1987!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian48 on August 16, 2013, 10:56:02 am
there's possibly a reason why new cafes are springing up all over the place, and why the Clarence is being renovated. The Clarence work is going to cost a fair bit, I'd have thought, and I don't image the bean-counters will have gone ahead without researching the area and visitor patterns very carefully beforehand.

I tend to agree with you on this.  Investors aren't daft and, especially during times like this, they aren't going to throw good money after bad in the way that they used to at the height of the economy.

I am starting to think that perhaps Llandudno is being seen as a safe investment in some respects.  There are groups with lots of money and they have sat on it for far too long and many want to start investing again (hence the Clarence).  You come to Llandudno and you see a retail occupancy rate of 92% (I read that somewhere, but I know there are a few charity shops in the mix there) and hotels which are doing rather well and look smart and you think 'this is a safe bet' - maybe that's why something might soon be happening with the Tudno Castle as well.  It has a large elderly population (who let's face it are far better off than most other people in society, no cuts to pensions, free travel etc) and so there is a constant stream of money there.

I have  been around and about recently and met people from all over the country and I must say that ,when I say where I am from, more and more people are saying things like 'ooh I saw that on TV the other day - looks lovely', or 'there's quite a buzz about that place at the moment', or 'isn't that having a bit of a renaissance these days' (all these are genuine I assure you). 

What we need is to capitalise on that and get investors investing and visitors visiting.     
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 16, 2013, 10:57:04 am
but - importantly - the older visitors who dislike the crowds during the main season.

I must admit I do not like big crowds, although strangely I enjoy the extravaganza in spite of the crowds, we just drive there and park early ready to look around it!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2013, 11:20:54 am
Quote
I think the forecasters are being over pessimistic ever since the big storm of 1987!

Ah yes - the 'Fish' effect, as those in the trade call it :-)))  No, I think you're right. The various ';yellow alerts' we've had in the past few weeks have all come to nought. And few are aware as to just how little rain actually falls on Llandudno compared with - say, Llanrwst.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on August 16, 2013, 05:27:14 pm
The main trouble with local weather forecasting is that it's all done from the Met office in Bracknell. Data is collected from remote sites around the county. This is then feed into their all seeing and all knowing computer so that the clever forecasters in Berkshire can tell us what our weather is going to be.

Our local weather reporting station is 8 miles away on the B5106 down the Conway Valley so it's no wonder that our coastal forecast is so often wrong. This centralised system does not have the capacity to take into account localised micro climates which produces major variations in our local weather patterns.

Meteorology is the only inexact science where they get the forecast wrong in excess of 60% of the time and people still think they are doing a good job   
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 16, 2013, 06:26:56 pm
I was talking to the Llandudno manager of a national coffee shop chain only last week, and he said that the previous two weeks trading had been their best ever.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on August 16, 2013, 08:09:33 pm
It isn't just here-- we have just been away for a few days and many places that we have visited were much quieter than last year.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on August 16, 2013, 08:54:11 pm
DaveR and a coffee shop,no suprise there then.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 16, 2013, 10:03:56 pm
DaveR and a coffee shop,no suprise there then.

Good to see you yesterday Wrex! (Just around the corner from where we live!)  :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2013, 11:13:01 pm
That’s nothing new, Ian.

There are lots me and Fester disagree on.

Even we have often given the pier a miss this summer as it is always so busy when we reach the pier gates.

Perhaps, pedestrians don’t get as far as Fester’s Emporium on the Pier because they turn back if they begin to meet an obstruction or a bottleneck.

Yes, Bri you do... and it does feel that you go out of your way to do so occasions, but no matter.

With reference to what you say though, there have been a number of well documented bottle-necks on the pier this year due to important (if poorly managed) restoration work. You are correct about that.
However, they were at their worst in July during the heatwave, when I quite frankly 'raked it in'
So, now that they are gone, and yet August is a poor month for everyone (except national coffee shops it seems), then that could lend weight to my theory that visitors spent their hard-earned earlier this year.  Thats all I'm saying.

The other traders I speak to range from people at the beginning of the pier where no bottlenecks exist, the Pier manager himself, various bar and cafe owners in Mostyn St.   All report a disappointing August.


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 17, 2013, 07:51:35 am
The other traders I speak to range from people at the beginning of the pier where no bottlenecks exist, 

Untrue.

They do exist occasionally and I believe the cause is the volume of pedestrians in conjunction with the selfish positioning of retail stands by kiosk holders.

When these bottlenecks occur on the way down, we always exit the pier at the second entrance upon our return journey in order to avoid them.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on August 17, 2013, 10:31:42 am
It's July and August Bri, and the Pier traders like everyone else have to make hay whilst the sun shines. It's just what we have to contend with by living in a popular seaside resort. Once you accept that life becomes a lot easier.  $sunny$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Llechwedd on August 17, 2013, 11:33:57 am
Just back from the Edinburgh Festival - to say that you couldn't get another person in with a shoe horn would be an underestimate it's absolutely heaving.  Locals plus foreigners.  Shows that you offer good stuff and people will come and it's not expensive. Saw very good Fringe shows for just £5 and concerts for £25.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 17, 2013, 01:11:20 pm
It's July and August Bri, and the Pier traders like everyone else have to make hay whilst the sun shines. It's just what we have to contend with by living in a popular seaside resort. Once you accept that life becomes a lot easier.

Blongb, do you remember the statement – send three and four pence we are going to a dance?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on August 17, 2013, 03:41:28 pm

Blongb, do you remember the statement – send three and four pence we are going to a dance?

I don't take sides Bri, just call it as I see it.

Its like when I used to get wound-up driving down Mostyn Street because of all the people crossing over where ever and cars pulling out without looking, it drove me to distraction. Then one particularly bad day my OH said, "for goodness sake, why don't you treat it  as if your driving through a car park". Such good advice and so much more stress free since heading her words of wisdom.   $thanx$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 17, 2013, 04:04:57 pm
Quote
for goodness sake, why don't you treat it  as if your driving through a car park".

Excellent advice.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 17, 2013, 04:41:17 pm
Blongb, do you remember the statement – send three and four pence we are going to a dance?

Never mind, Blongb, I won’t bother explaining.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 17, 2013, 09:03:49 pm
Blongb, do you remember the statement – send three and four pence we are going to a dance?

Never mind, Blongb, I won’t bother explaining.

It might be worth it though Bri, because I have genuinely never heard that phrase in my life, please educate me!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bigmurph on August 17, 2013, 09:07:28 pm
Llandudno is a nice town I have stayed a few times because of the work at the station, the station is busy loads of people going for a few days or a full week , I come come from an ex seaside resort that was busy in its day but people found more exotic places to go like llandudno,looking from the outside what the town needs is to tell people it's there and it's a nice place.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: mull on August 18, 2013, 12:22:47 am
Is this the Jethro joke about his sister Nance going to the dance ?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Gwynant on August 18, 2013, 01:33:02 am
           The saying "Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance" was meant to be   "send reinforcements, we're going to advance" as far as I can remember, though I can't quite understand the relevance in this case.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 18, 2013, 07:20:15 am
Absolutely correct, Gwynant.

It is all about miscommunication.

It started with Fester and his statement that there are never any bottlenecks on one part of the pier and me ‘going out of my way’ to disagree with him again resulting in Blongb completely misunderstanding my point altogether and thinking I am complaining about all the crowds on the pier but then Blongb thinks I am accusing him of taking sides with one of the moderators agreeing with him so later I am being asked to ‘educate’ Fester and so it goes on.

Please remind me what was my point? *snore*

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 18, 2013, 07:57:36 am
 :) :) :)

One thing that doesn't help, BTW, is when folk simply hit the 'Quote' button when replying, but don't bother editing the quote. Too often that results in the entire - and often lengthy - post being reprinted, with just a one line comment being added by the person posting. If folk were more judicious in their use of cutting and pasting the topics would flow more smoothly and conversations could be followed much more easily. I hasten to add this doesn't apply to Blongb or Bri, both of whose quotes are the epitome of sartorial succinctness :-))).
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on August 18, 2013, 08:09:42 am
:) :) :)

One thing that doesn't help, BTW, is when folk simply hit the 'Quote' button when replying, but don't bother editing the quote. ..........I hasten to add this doesn't apply to Blongb or Bri, both of whose quotes are the epitome of sartorial succinctness :-))).

Exactly! :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 19, 2013, 10:03:03 pm
:) :) :)

 doesn't help, BTW, is when folk ...... hit the 'Quote' button when replying, but don't .......often that results in the entire - and often lengthy -..... one line comment being added by the person ......... cutting and pasting the topics would flow more ...........much more easily. I hasten to .............to Blongb or Bri, both of who..............sartorial succinctness :-))).

Let's see.... is that how to do it?   YES!!!!  I have learned something today.  Thanks Ian!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 10, 2014, 12:21:10 pm
CCBC are the main obstacle at the moment,how the lady at the North Shore protest meeting could sit there and tell us all that Llandudno was important to CCBC tourism was a disgrace.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 10, 2014, 12:49:17 pm
To my mind there are two main obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno.

First it is the uncertainty and vagaries of the English Welsh Weather.

Second the lack of facilities or entertainment when the Weather is unaccommodating. 

Unless, of course, one is content to amuse oneself in any one of the multitudinous cafes!   
 ZXZ   Z**   $dins$  $drink$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 10, 2014, 12:54:07 pm
CCBC are the main obstacle at the moment,how the lady at the North Shore protest meeting could sit there and tell us all that Llandudno was important to CCBC tourism was a disgrace.
Agreed. It just seems to be cutback after cutback in Llandudno. I was looking at the Floral Clock yesterday - its full of grass and weeds surround it. Why bother going to the trouble and cost of installing such a feature if they are not willing to maintain it to a high standard?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 10, 2014, 02:13:50 pm
To my mind there are two main obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno.

First it is the uncertainty and vagaries of the English Welsh Weather.

Second the lack of facilities or entertainment when the Weather is unaccommodating. 

Unless, of course, one is content to amuse oneself in any one of the multitudinous cafes!   
 ZXZ   Z**   $dins$  $drink$

Laser quest, Ice skating rink, cinema, Entertainment complex - Build them and they will come. Families that is. Unless Llandudno think that the old people who come here now are going to live forever. No beaches to go on, nothing to do. Nothing to do at night (Crap all on in the arena and theatre and getting WORSE every single season)  In ten years time Llandudno will be a ghost town, mark my words.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 10, 2014, 02:15:39 pm
Unless Llandudno think that the old people who come here now are going to live forever.
Are we not all getting older every day?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 10, 2014, 02:44:35 pm
Unless Llandudno think that the old people who come here now are going to live forever.
Are we not all getting older every day?  :laugh:

I definetley am! But the next generation of old people are not going to come to Llandudno, they've been too aquainted with foreign holidays. Llandudno has nothing for them and nothing for anyone else either except memories.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 10, 2014, 05:01:54 pm
We have been travelling abroad for holidays for nigh on 50 years now and had a great time soaking up the Sun or visiting the various sights wherever we have been.   However, I now think it is time for us to spend sometime looking round our own Island.   I would like to once again visit the places where we have travelled but never stopped long enough to experience the sights and pleasures on offer.  I want to go to Scotland again, to the West Country, The Lakes, Yorkshire and also my home County of Essex.  There is much to see and do in this Country, so we will have to brave everything the weather can throw at us, and enjoy ourselves as best we can.
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 10, 2014, 05:37:31 pm
Some pics of the Floral Clock, it obviously hasn't been touched for many months and is an embarrassing mess. That plant in the second photo is a very large weed, by the way!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 10, 2014, 07:25:43 pm
I wonder if andrew Lloyd-Weber saw that weed yesterday,apparently he was watching Cats last night in Veue Cymru.Can you imagine what he would have made of the filth CCBC are leaving us with at the moment,i had not noticed the West Shore grass till today,how can any body thing of having a picnic on that so called lawn,why is nobody caring from town too county clls disgracefull.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 11, 2014, 09:11:32 am
I saw this flower bed yesterday, it's just outside the Broadway Hotel, on the main route into town from the Coach Park. It's not been touched this year and is full of weeds. very disappointing.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: OrmeMac on June 11, 2014, 04:47:14 pm
I was in Scarborough and York last week and whilst some of the Summer bedding plants were still awaited it was amazing the difference between there and Llandudno.People are more likely to behave in a respectful manner in nicer surroundings so you'd think it would be a win win for the Council to keep Llandudno tidy.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 11, 2014, 05:21:34 pm
Where do these Community Payback teams work? They could be put to good use putting bedding plants in, weeding etc.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 15, 2014, 08:29:09 am
CCBC please take note,the cuts you have made in the parks dept are making Llandudno a mess,the fact that no gigs have happenend in the Arena since last May(2013) is not helping the Llandudno economy the hoteliers are up in arms about one car rally,why the hell are they not bothered about no groups appearing in the 2,500 Arena,at least 300 people would be staying for every gig yet not a word,no sense hoteliers.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on June 15, 2014, 09:01:46 am
Careful Wrex-- alot of Hoteliers have more on their minds than gigs.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 15, 2014, 09:45:31 am
Sorry Nem but if hoteliers don;t complain about the lack of people CCBC are bringing into Llandudno or why the hell the parks dept have stopped cutting grass then there is no hope for tourism.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 15, 2014, 10:25:44 pm
Further to the subject of 'overgrown Llandudno'.

I went away on holiday last week, and the grass verge outside my house on LLwynon Road was the worst I had ever seen it.
But, I couldn't believe my eyes when I returned from holiday and it still had not been touched.  :o
The picture below shows what any tourist catching the bus to the Orme summit would witness.
The massive weed in the middle of the shot has about 10 sturdy stalks, and is about 3 ft tall (and growing everyday)
Is the 'Fix my street' link to CCBC any use in tackling this?   
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 16, 2014, 07:50:51 am
Fester just phone one or both of your county clls(gogarth) and tell them you get paid to sort this mess out so sort it,PLEASE.Sorry i have no idea who they are though.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2014, 08:58:09 am
Quote
But, I couldn't believe my eyes when I returned from holiday and it still had not been touched.

Perhaps all the residents could come together and form a working party?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 16, 2014, 09:08:41 am
Quote
But, I couldn't believe my eyes when I returned from holiday and it still had not been touched.

Perhaps all the residents could come together and form a working party?
...subject to a reduction in Council Tax, naturally?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2014, 11:11:45 am
Naturally  WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DVT on June 16, 2014, 11:19:39 am
I was on West Shore Prom yesterday for the Car Club event and, at the end, was approached by a lady who asked me what was the name of the beach.  I told her it was the "West Shore" and she asked if it was part of Llandudno.  I was a bit taken aback by this, but she then told me that she had been to the "other" beach with her children and was disgusted (by the boulders and lack of sand) and had somehow stumbled across West Shore.  Although the tide was in you could see some sand and I told her that when it went out there was a vast expanse of sand, although you shouldn't venture too far out.

She thanked me and said next time she brought the kids she would head for West Shore.  I told her there was a cafe at the end and she left happy and looking forward to a coffee.  Unfortunately, I forgot to ask where she was from, but iobviously not local!

I'm sure for every tourist that finds West Shore there are plenty that don't and, having seen Boulder Beach, will not return to the town.

As for the general untidiness there is also the safety aspect.  Failure to cut the "hedge" as you turn into Mostyn Street by Tudno Castle means you cannot see pedestrians about to step out.  Similarly the high grass on the Black Cat A55 roundabout, whe exiting from Colwyn Bay, means you cannot see low cars coming from the right.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 16, 2014, 05:02:24 pm
If the St Grorges hotel left its grass uncut and flower beds unweeded then it would not attract many visitors soCCBC the same applys too Llandudno.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2014, 05:07:36 pm
Quote
Similarly the high grass on the Black Cat A55 roundabout, whe exiting from Colwyn Bay, means you cannot see low cars coming from the right.

indeed.  But interestingly hedges on roundabouts are often used to impede visibility so as to slow down cars on their approach.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 16, 2014, 07:43:22 pm
H A HA i love the size of DaveR;s weed next to the floral clock,i think someone has been feeding it.The grass on the West Shore is horendous yet no worrys whatsoever,filthy town will be the message from tourists,shower CCBC
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 16, 2014, 10:17:32 pm
Quote
But, I couldn't believe my eyes when I returned from holiday and it still had not been touched.

Perhaps all the residents could come together and form a working party?

Perhaps I should also pay for a trolley full of shopping in Asda, but then just leave it with them out of kindness?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2014, 06:59:42 am
The analogy is flawed. When you shop in Asda you're paying for specific items you need and will use. With communities, however, there are many things for which you must pay that you will never use nor want, but to which you must contribute through council tax. This is called democracy.

I've always thought Council Tax was misnamed; it implies you're being taxed simply for choosing to live in a particular area when in fact it's simply a contribution towards the running costs of that community. And it is only a contribution: much of the CCBC finance comes through the RSG and formula grant from central government.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: A.L.N. (a local nobody) on June 17, 2014, 09:18:18 am
Quote
Similarly the high grass on the Black Cat A55 roundabout, whe exiting from Colwyn Bay, means you cannot see low cars coming from the right.

indeed.  But interestingly hedges on roundabouts are often used to impede visibility so as to slow down cars on their approach.

Unfortunately they also cause serious accidents when idiots don't slowdown thats why they need cutting.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2014, 12:53:53 pm
H A HA i love the size of DaveR;s weed next to the floral clock,i think someone has been feeding it.The grass on the West Shore is horendous yet no worrys whatsoever,filthy town will be the message from tourists,shower CCBC
I saw CCBC Gardeners (an endangered species) working today at Combermere Gardens in Rhos and by the 'Welcome To Llandudno' sign at top of Penrhyn Hill.

Efforts to entice them into Llandudno itself have so far proved unsuccessful.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2014, 02:50:54 pm
Quote
Unfortunately they also cause serious accidents when idiots don't slowdown thats why they need cutting.

But it can be argued 'idiots' will cause accidents, anyway. It's far from clear cut.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: hollins on June 17, 2014, 03:29:40 pm
Quote
I saw CCBC Gardeners (an endangered species) working today at Combermere Gardens in Rhos and by the 'Welcome To Llandudno' sign at top of Penrhyn Hill.

Efforts to entice them into Llandudno itself have so far proved unsuccessful.  :laugh:

Your comments made me laugh DaveR but at the same time I am sorry that they are true.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 17, 2014, 04:56:16 pm
H A HA i love the size of DaveR;s weed next to the floral clock,i think someone has been feeding it.

The floral clock received appropriate attention this afternoon.

I hope they remember to move the clock forward by 5 minutes before they leave.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Mikethewatch on June 17, 2014, 05:38:08 pm
H A HA i love the size of DaveR;s weed next to the floral clock,i think someone has been feeding it.

The floral clock received appropriate attention this afternoon.

I hope they remember to move the clock forward by 5 minutes before they leave.
Thing is rarely telling the right time. Should stop it altogether, at least then it would be right twice a day!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2014, 06:42:57 pm
I saw that it had been tidied up a little. Can't say that it deserves the title of 'Floral" Clock though...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 17, 2014, 09:23:04 pm
Soilal clock, grassal clock weedal clock? Take your pick!  &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 17, 2014, 10:06:19 pm
I did e-mail one county councillor last nite about DaveR;s weed,looks like it did the trick.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 17, 2014, 11:48:04 pm
The analogy is flawed. When you shop in Asda you're paying for specific items you need and will use. With communities, however, there are many things for which you must pay that you will never use nor want, but to which you must contribute through council tax. This is called democracy.

I've always thought Council Tax was misnamed; it implies you're being taxed simply for choosing to live in a particular area when in fact it's simply a contribution towards the running costs of that community. And it is only a contribution: much of the CCBC finance comes through the RSG and formula grant from central government.

Ian, I rather think my analogy is entirely accurate.
Part of the council tax is a direct payment towards the Parks and Gardening Budget, which I pay in the knowledge that CCBC are now obliged to keep the grass verges relatively tidy.
I do realise that I am also required to contribute to some services that I might never use, but that as you say, is democracy.
I think my old bug-bear the Llandudno Swimming Centre would come into that category for many people.

I simply object to paying for things that I am entitled to, that are then either not provided, or are done to a poor standard.

In a nutshell, the Council Tax bill increases every year, whilst the services delivered for it continually deteriorate.
bear in mind also that there are NUMEROUS Council officials on more than £100,000 per year.   Value for money?



Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 08:36:25 am
Quote
In a nutshell, the Council Tax bill increases every year, whilst the services delivered for it continually deteriorate.

That does appear to be true in some respects, but from the information CCBC provides it's difficult to see what impact the cuts have made over the past six years.

Quote
bear in mind also that there are NUMEROUS Council officials on more than £100,000 per year.   Value for money?

And there we agree, and all this was forecast not that long ago when the plans to create CCBC were advanced, and many astute observers at the time pointed out that 'jobs for the boys' would become the order of the day. That happened - in spades - and now, of course, the current plan is to revert to more-or-less what existed before.

Traditionally, councils seem to pay their workers more than the average wage and there appear to be few - if any - assessments as to how the excessive salaries of these highly paid individuals are justified by their performance. But, as I've said before, I believe there's a lot wrong with the current system, some of which at least could be addressed by making council service mandatory. Bringing in true democracy, where the council tax payers could vote out unpopular measures and lazy councillors, would be a hugely popular innovation, but that's never going to happen because our elected 'servants' are too terrified of the possible outcomes.

Back to the Council tax issues, however, and from a quick glance at the CCBC website it's as clear as mud:

[smg id=3273]

The pie chart provides a tiny overview, lacking in details, but the sectional expenditure chart is a little more detailed:

[smg id=3275]

What's more interesting is the origin of most of the money:

[smg id=3274]

so the total expenditure by the council is £210m, of which the lowly taxpayers contribute 21.4%. From the pie chart above, we know that C,E and P get a mere 11% overall, which equates to about 2.2% of the council tax payer's contribution and exactly what proportion of the 11% is set aside for cutting grass verges isn't shown, but a rough guess would be about 0.002%, so it's pretty clear that the council's priorities are not verging on the verges.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 18, 2014, 08:40:34 am
3 more images that I can't see!  :(
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 08:47:17 am
ME: just an idea, but can you see this image? If you can, then I know what the problem is.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 18, 2014, 10:19:02 am
Yes Ian, no problem!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 18, 2014, 10:35:09 am
so the total expenditure by the council is £210m, of which the lowly taxpayers contribute 21.4%.
In reality, of course, the Revenue Support Grant element is paid for by taxpayers (albeit not solely in Conwy County) as well, making our contribution around 80% of expenditure.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 18, 2014, 10:47:19 am
The analogy is flawed. When you shop in Asda you're paying for specific items you need and will use. With communities, however, there are many things for which you must pay that you will never use nor want, but to which you must contribute through council tax. This is called democracy.

I've always thought Council Tax was misnamed; it implies you're being taxed simply for choosing to live in a particular area when in fact it's simply a contribution towards the running costs of that community. And it is only a contribution: much of the CCBC finance comes through the RSG and formula grant from central government.

Ian, I rather think my analogy is entirely accurate.
Part of the council tax is a direct payment towards the Parks and Gardening Budget, which I pay in the knowledge that CCBC are now obliged to keep the grass verges relatively tidy.
I do realise that I am also required to contribute to some services that I might never use, but that as you say, is democracy.
I think my old bug-bear the Llandudno Swimming Centre would come into that category for many people.

I simply object to paying for things that I am entitled to, that are then either not provided, or are done to a poor standard.

In a nutshell, the Council Tax bill increases every year, whilst the services delivered for it continually deteriorate.
bear in mind also that there are NUMEROUS Council officials on more than £100,000 per year.   Value for money?

Most of Llandudno swimming pool now closed for the month!! Only the deep end is open as there is problems with the floor ;D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 12:16:08 pm
Quote
Yes Ian, no problem!

Okay.  It seems you can't see images which are retrieved via our media gallery, but you can see those which are simply posted through the normal method.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 12:28:49 pm
Quote
   
Quote
so the total expenditure by the council is £210m, of which the lowly taxpayers contribute 21.4%.

In reality, of course, the Revenue Support Grant element is paid for by taxpayers (albeit not solely in Conwy County) as well, making our contribution around 80% of expenditure.

But all government expenditure is funded via taxation, so that's a bit of a red herring, Dave, as we're specifically discussing Council Tax and its relevance to cutting Fester's verge. In that sense, the Tax payers' contribution, as opposed to the Council Tax payers' is 100%, especially as the government seems intent on flogging off all the profitable elements of their businesses at knock-down prices to their cronies. 

But where d'you draw the line? There have been cases of people withholding income tax and other taxes in protest at government strategies, such as wars. Or you could simply follow the example of that bastion of fairness, the egregious Thatcher, and move all your taxable assets overseas and out of reach. I've often said that my wife and I are probably keeping the entire armed forces afloat, such is our tax bill, but taxes are an important element of a just society, so we pay up...and look miserable.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 18, 2014, 02:03:49 pm
taxes are an important element of a just society,
Can't remember the name of the chap who said "The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." but he was probably right...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 18, 2014, 04:15:17 pm
Lenin  $good$

Didn't think Communism was allowed on here though  ;D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 04:18:22 pm
 (To Dave) _))* _))* _))*



Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 18, 2014, 04:20:53 pm
But a more serious point:  what taxes should be eliminated?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 18, 2014, 04:34:53 pm
But a more serious point:  what taxes should be eliminated?

Bedroom tax for a start
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 18, 2014, 05:09:19 pm
But a more serious point:  what taxes should be eliminated?

Bedroom tax for a start
A Tax is defined as 'A compulsory contribution to state revenue, levied by the government on workers' income and business profits, or added to the cost of some goods, services, and transactions'. How does a reduction in a benefit paid qualify?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2014, 05:46:54 pm
But a more serious point:  what taxes should be eliminated?

Bedroom tax for a start

I would tend to agree with that and it typifies the party that introduced a tax on the poorer section of the community.   Revenue has to come from somewhere but it would be interesting to know the comparison between the amount saved by the introduction of the bedroom tax against a tax levied on properties in the UK that are valued over £1 million and also the rebanding  of all the properties in England.
Would the present Government do this?     No chance whatsoever as they wouldn't do anything as it would affect their MP's and their supporters.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 18, 2014, 05:59:29 pm
I would tend to agree with that and it typifies the party that introduced a tax on the poorer section of the community.
I'm still hoping that someone can explain to me how it is a tax?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2014, 06:24:08 pm
I would tend to agree with that and it typifies the party that introduced a tax on the poorer section of the community.
I'm still hoping that someone can explain to me how it is a tax?

It isn't a tax as such, it's obviously an attempt at a saving in benefit payouts and has  just been labelled a bedroom tax.  Having said that those savings are at the expense of the poorer members of society and could possibly have be achieved by increasing the tax on £1 million properties and rebanding all other properties in the UK that weren't rebanded when those in Wales were.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 18, 2014, 08:35:44 pm
Exactly, the use of the word 'tax' is an attempt to mislead people.

Another question - why is it right that working class people cannot afford to have an extra bedroom but people living on benefits can?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2014, 10:01:07 pm
Exactly, the use of the word 'tax' is an attempt to mislead people.

Another question - why is it right that working class people cannot afford to have an extra bedroom but people living on benefits can?

That's not quite correct as the "bedroom tax" only applies to people who don't own their own property and those tenants are from working class people as well as the benefit people.
If you mean that working class people who own their own home cannot afford an extra bedroom because for example they live within their  means then that is another matter completely.
I still think that money could be raised from taxing expensive property and also England should have the houses rebanded just like we had in Wales about 10 years ago but that would be a definite vote loser for the Government in power.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 18, 2014, 11:40:49 pm
But a more serious point:  what taxes should be eliminated?

Capital Gains Tax on share dealing for one!

If I walk in to a bookies,  bet a fiver and win a tenner.... I get to keep the winnings.
If I purchase shares in a company, and by sheer luck they increase in value,  then I have to pay 28% of the value that I have 'won'

I have never understood how that can be fair.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 19, 2014, 07:10:28 am
Quote
If I walk in to a bookies,  bet a fiver and win a tenner.... I get to keep the winnings.
If I purchase shares in a company, and by sheer luck they increase in value,  then I have to pay 28% of the value that I have 'won'

It might seem an anomaly, but I seem to remember that the original idea was that for many people share dealing is actually a business - a full-time occupation, in fact, and CGT was intended to act as a form of income tax for those folk. Few make a living out of betting, presumably. Although it's a little odd, since making money from betting probably involves more work than making it from share dealing. Perhaps you're right;  they should institute a 28% tax on betting.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 19, 2014, 08:13:21 am
Agreed! The tax on profit from shares does seem excessive. The problem is though that if you cut one tax they have to increase another, but which one?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 19, 2014, 09:08:39 am
If you mean that working class people who own their own home cannot afford an extra bedroom because for example they live within their  means then that is another matter completely.
That's exactly what I do mean. I can think of working families with a mortgage who would love but cannot afford an extra bedroom - why should it be any different for people on housing benefit?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 19, 2014, 09:10:58 am
If I purchase shares in a company, and by sheer luck they increase in value,
It certainly would be sheer luck in your case....  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 19, 2014, 10:10:55 am
Quote
If I walk in to a bookies,  bet a fiver and win a tenner.... I get to keep the winnings.
If I purchase shares in a company, and by sheer luck they increase in value,  then I have to pay 28% of the value that I have 'won'

It might seem an anomaly, but I seem to remember that the original idea was that for many people share dealing is actually a business - a full-time occupation, in fact, and CGT was intended to act as a form of income tax for those folk. Few make a living out of betting, presumably. Although it's a little odd, since making money from betting probably involves more work than making it from share dealing. Perhaps you're right;  they should institute a 28% tax on betting.

We had betting tax for many years at 9% - but it was abolished about 10 years ago causing a massive rise in the betting industry.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 19, 2014, 01:27:06 pm
And there are plenty of people who make money out of betting in all its forms! ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 19, 2014, 01:39:15 pm
...in the form of www.sportingbet.com (http://www.sportingbet.com), possibly?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 19, 2014, 06:43:19 pm
...in the form of www.sportingbet.com (http://www.sportingbet.com), possibly?

I was thinking more of Bingo!   I only bet on the certain fact that I wont win!   ZXZ 
The Lottery is enough for me, and why I do it with odds of 14,000,000 to 1, I don't know!   WWW

Now, Share Dealing, well that's a bit different!    ;)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 19, 2014, 07:52:41 pm
...in the form of www.sportingbet.com (http://www.sportingbet.com), possibly?

Did someone say www.sportingbet.com (http://www.sportingbet.com) ?  $good$  <:<:<:<
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 19, 2014, 10:46:32 pm
Quote
If I walk in to a bookies,  bet a fiver and win a tenner.... I get to keep the winnings.
If I purchase shares in a company, and by sheer luck they increase in value,  then I have to pay 28% of the value that I have 'won'

It might seem an anomaly, but I seem to remember that the original idea was that for many people share dealing is actually a business - a full-time occupation, in fact, and CGT was intended to act as a form of income tax for those folk. Few make a living out of betting, presumably. Although it's a little odd, since making money from betting probably involves more work than making it from share dealing. Perhaps you're right;  they should institute a 28% tax on betting.

Professional Poker players are 'gambling', but they compete in games of skill.
They are not taxed, but it is their ONLY source of income.
A recent court case where a champion Poker Player was excused paying his CSA payments, because he argued that his income was unsustainable or regular.   
He won his case, pays nothing for his child, and therefore WE are paying for it instead.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on June 20, 2014, 07:53:49 am
Quote
They are not taxed, but it is their ONLY source of income.

Not for the top ones, like Victoria Coren Mitchell. She also presents, writes books and appears on TV a great deal. But I know winnings aren't taxed, but presumably - as a professional player - you would have to register as self-employed with HMRC?

Presumably, removing the tax equation from winnings was designed to make the UK appealing to professional gamblers. I seem to remember some issues surrounding plans for mega-casinos in 2004-2006 that never came to fruition. Had they done so, the corporation tax levied on the casinos would have been significant I suspect.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 20, 2014, 10:58:24 am

Quote
A recent court case where a champion Poker Player was excused paying his CSA payments, because he argued that his income was unsustainable or regular.   
He won his case, pays nothing for his child, and therefore WE are paying for it instead.

By Law you are allowed to bet on games of skill without paying tax and are allowed to legally gamble for small amounts in public houses too, there was an interesting case many moons ago where a landlord who allowed darts betting was tried for gambling violations but he argued it was a game of skill not luck and therefore exempt. To prove his case he brought into the courtroom his best darts player and a board and the player hit any number the jury and judge shouted out, he won the case as well!

Good job they didn't call you up Fester  L0L
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 20, 2014, 12:35:38 pm
I haven't played darts for many years, but I always found it to be a game of pure luck!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 20, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
ME, I suggest you don't tell that to Fester.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 20, 2014, 04:01:13 pm
 :laugh: no I'm talking of my darting abilities, or lack of!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on June 20, 2014, 04:16:22 pm
Has Fester perpetuated this myth on here that he is in someway good at darts?

In reality he coudn't hit a barn door with a banjo (although if he could it would make a better noise than his Motorhead music  _))*)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 20, 2014, 05:41:37 pm
 L0L  L0L
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 21, 2014, 01:28:43 am
Has Fester perpetuated this myth on here that he is in someway good at darts?

In reality he coudn't hit a barn door with a banjo (although if he could it would make a better noise than his Motorhead music  _))*)

I have never made any such claim, however the league statistics don't lie mate.
I wonder if you would care to play against me for ANY sum of money you like?   I somehow doubt it.

Anyhow, I don't know how you DARE even talk about darts, given your recent ignominious ''retirement'' from the game at the end of last season.
Many have been wondering how you could have retired from a game you never really played in the first place.

You are considered the Owen Hargreaves of Darts.   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on June 30, 2014, 09:16:22 am
I passed through Prestatyn on Friday and have to give them credit, the floral displays there were superb. Loads of summer bedding and all immaculately maintained. Presumably, Denbighshire are under the same financial constraints as CCBC, so what excuse have CCBC got for the dismal state of Llandudno's shrubberies and flower displays?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: hollins on June 30, 2014, 06:48:56 pm
Totally agree DaveR. I drove through Prestatyn and Flint yesterday and thought the same thing.
Mind you I was in Harrogate today and their displays are magnificent. However I was told that the council has borrowed money to make everything look good for the Tour de France which will take three years to pay back so maybe not such a good display the following years.
The villages look great at the moment with all the decorations for the race. There are yellow bikes and vests all along the route.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 30, 2014, 07:31:47 pm
Stage Two of The Tour of Britain bike race finishes in Llandudno on Monday, 8 September 2014. 

*cycle* or will it be :cyclist40:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on June 30, 2014, 08:10:13 pm
Bri you need to tell CCBC that this is on and make sure they have the weeds and grass sorted,somebody forgot to tell them there was an event on the beach at the weekend,it was full of litter,i nearly picked up some of it to take to the hut but there was no one there.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 30, 2014, 09:00:57 pm
wrex, the cyclists will be going round the Great orme.

Yesterday evening, wrex, I informed a lady coming off the beach with a dog by the jetty that dogs were not allowed on the beach and she informed me she was unaware of that when she went onto the beach further down towards the Imperial Hotel.

Just as I was talking to her a couple of visitors with a poodle walked passed us and down onto the beach.

It seems those new white sail-like signs are only up during the daytime.



Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 30, 2014, 09:04:39 pm
And the dogs can't read anyway!   ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on June 30, 2014, 09:13:28 pm
What has happened to the Llandudno Hotel and Restaurant Group?    Surely the Tourist Businesses of the Town should be shouting long and hard, at their Town and County Councillors and also lobbying their AM's and MP's.   It is no good sitting on one's A*** and expecting everything to be done for you!

Maybe, whilst Wrex is making all the fuss, the Town's Hoteliers are prepared to just accept things as they are, in which case it is no use moaning at the end of the year when the final line on the Balance Sheet starts with a minus sign!   
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on June 30, 2014, 10:30:45 pm
Bril the guys in that hut put them out and take them in before they finish,and they only go near the bandstand
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 30, 2014, 11:07:19 pm
That makes sense.

There are usually several, norman, stretching from kiddies corner to the bandstand but if you check the notice board near the jetty you will see that dogs are actually not allowed from kiddies corner over to the Washington.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on June 30, 2014, 11:22:46 pm
Yes bri ccbc can,t afford anymore lol
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 01, 2014, 08:38:27 am
There were originally either 10 or 12 'dog flags', but CCBC kept coming along and taking them to other places-- Rhos now has 2 and apparently Pen and Llanfairfechan have one each. Have a chat with the chappies in the hut !!!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 01, 2014, 08:55:47 am
Which is the better option?

Positioning them on the ‘shingle’ when the tide is in, or

Positioning them on the sandy beach when the tide is out.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on July 01, 2014, 09:29:28 am
And the dogs can't read anyway!   ZXZ

 _))*

I love the sign that used to be (maybe still is) on the green near the Grand Hotel. 'This is for Guide dogs only' That's not getting read by either the dogs or the owners!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on July 05, 2014, 05:40:54 pm
Biggest obs at the moment seems to be the parks dept,nem has just posted pics from Heulfre Gaedens and the place is disgusting and to think they shoved dweedle and dummer up there,why the cafe owner has;nt had the press up there i will never know.Who is going to sort this filth out before the summer has gone,Huelfre gardens a tourist destination and on Alice trail,joke big fat joke.l
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on July 06, 2014, 08:18:08 pm
  On the golf course I get a fairly substantial number of enquiries about the way to the gardens. Probably because of the footpath going up and down the Orme alongside and also because the golf course is described as being part of the gardens.
  Anyway my point is there are a number of people trying to find it. So ---  there are a number of people who are going to be very disappointed when they get there. So as attractions go it is not as if this is somewhere which has been forgotten and does not matter. Mike
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Mikethewatch on July 06, 2014, 08:43:52 pm
I have noticed over the last few years there have been fewer and fewer visits from the council gardeners up there.
Its now got to the point where they clearly don't care.
Green house vandalised and now removed. Two shelters vandalised and now gone, one replaced with those wooden figures..
Grass uncut for weeks if not months, weeds everywhere and now getting regular visits from the local drop outs looking for somewhere to drink/take drugs.
The gardens department or whatever they might like to call themselves need a kick up the A***
Invalids walk is just as bad but I believe that's the responsibility of the Orme warden, who has been told about the problem but has done little to clear the pathway.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on July 07, 2014, 07:14:05 am
Bring on the goats!   They will soon make the place nice and tidy again - if there are any goats left, that is! 
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: wrex on July 07, 2014, 07:21:51 pm
I have had no reply from the parks dept,no idea if the Heulfre lawns have been cut so we need mike to pop and have a look.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on July 07, 2014, 08:56:09 pm
   Yorkie and Wrex, both talking about something that I do know something about.
   First, the Goats. Yes, there are certainly plenty of goats still left, although one sadly died a couple of weeks ago. I can guarantee that. My shovel can provide proof from this morning.
   But I didn't know the gardens had lawns. Never mind, I don't mind going down to have a look. But I won't be "Popping to have a look."
   Walk down three holes on the golf course, then 80 steps, several steep, with downwards sections of path. And I am there.  Maybe 10 minutes.
  The return journey? O.K. I will put a spurt on. Half an hour?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on July 07, 2014, 09:32:22 pm
   Yorkie and Wrex, both talking about something that I do know something about.
    plenty of goats still left, although one sadly died a couple of weeks ago. I can guarantee that. My shovel can provide proof from this morning.
   

You buried it Mike???    :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 07, 2014, 09:47:19 pm
I had a reply from CCBC-- they will be in touch !    I won't hold my breath !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 07, 2014, 10:43:02 pm
   Yorkie and Wrex, both talking about something that I do know something about.
   First, the Goats. Yes, there are certainly plenty of goats still left, although one sadly died a couple of weeks ago. I can guarantee that. My shovel can provide proof from this morning.
   

That is a coincidence, Mike.

Our youngest and her friend were driving round the Great Orme in the late evening a couple of weeks ago and witnessed a very serious attack on a goat by stray dog.

They later informed a couple of police officers in Mostyn Street who said they would let the Orme Warden know.


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 12, 2014, 12:16:50 pm
Tourist numbers rise in Wales but they are spending less a survey reveals
Aug 12, 2014 10:30 By Tom Bodden
Trippers are spending less time and money on holiday destinations according to major survey

More tourists are coming to Wales from the rest of the UK but they are staying for shorter breaks and spending less money, a major survey revealed.

Figures for the first quarter of this year, show the ‘stay-cation’ in Wales is still popular with Britons as the number of domestic trips to Wales are up 3.2% to 1.51m while trips to England were down 11% and overall GB trips down 9.8%.

Wales now accounts for 7.8% of overnight trips within the UK, up from 6.8% in 2013. But the trips are getting shorter, the number of nights spent in Wales fell 11%, compared to 2013, although a smaller fall than England and GB as a whole.

The average length of stay was 2.66 nights in January to March compared with 3.08 nights in 2013. Spending was also down 14.6% from £246m in 2013 to £210m, a bigger fall than England (10.7%) and Great Britain as a whole (10.3%).

But day visits to Wales were up 25% to 40m for the first five months of 2014, compared to the same period last year with associated expenditure up by 5%. In comparison, for Great Britain as a whole, trips were up by just 1% and expenditure was on a par with 2013.

Welsh tourism minister Edwina Hart said: “As the summer holidays are now in full swing these figures are a welcome boost to show that the industry was still performing well at the beginning of the year after a very successful 2013.

“It seems that the industry managed to weather the storms which hit the UK at the beginning of the year and that quick action and investment from the Welsh Government meant repairs were carried out and tourism trade was not adversely affected. We also know that the Easter period was a busy one in Wales and there’s every indication that this will be reflected in the official figures.

“The tourism strategy for Wales has been in place for a year and we’re now seeing that we are on track to meet the challenging growth target of 10% by 2020.”

Occupancy rates were higher than 2013 for hotels, hostels, static caravans and touring pitches, while similar levels of occupancy to 2013 were recorded at Guest Houses/B&Bs and Self-catering properties.

Holiday or leisure trips made up just over half of all trips to Wales. Business visits made up only 10.9% of all overnight trips but the volume of business-related tourism was well down compared with the same period in 2013.

Some 89m tourism day visits were made by British residents to destinations in Wales in 2013, generating expenditure of just over £3bn. The average spend per person per day trip was £34, on a par with the average in Britain as a whole.

In North Wales, roughly half of day visits originate outside Wales, with some 4m visits from the nearby North West of England. People spend the least on average on a day out in North Wales £29. The annual average bed occupancy rate for North Wales was highest of all the Welsh regions at 49%.

But Suzy Davies the Tory shadow tourism minister said: “The domestic day trip market is an important part of Wales’ vibrant tourism industry and it is a poor reflection on Visit Wales that despite last year’s good weather, that fewer day trips were undertaken in Wales.

“Tourist day trip visits to Wales contribute millions of pounds to the Welsh economy and represent income and jobs to small tourism operators and the hospitality industry. These figures do not bode well for attracting those lucrative longer-stay and high-spend visitors, if Visit Wales cannot even tempt more day trippers from within Wales and neighbouring regions to take up our tourist offer.

“The potential of the day visit has long been recognised and the domestic market forms the strong focus of the Welsh Labour Government’s tourism strategy. That strategy is now over a year old. Has the Welsh Government’s strategy started to fail already?”

However, statistics show that foreign tourist visits to Wales are up by more than 30,000 on last year.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/tourist-numbers-rise-wales-spending-7597684 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/tourist-numbers-rise-wales-spending-7597684)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 12, 2014, 11:46:13 pm
So,  the people will come... and in large numbers too.

The challenge is then, we must offer them something that they cannot resist spending their money on.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on August 13, 2014, 09:02:20 am
Indeed. The tourism market is changing, and we must change with it to keep the visitor cash rolling in.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: craigollerton on August 13, 2014, 10:35:12 am
Indeed. The tourism market is changing, and we must change with it to keep the visitor cash rolling in.

Wales urgently needs a strategic review on it's marketing campaigns. I have been conducting research into tourism campaigns both locally and internationally and there is much Wales could learn from how other countries bring in the visitors. Of all the countries I have visited so far, personally I would take a leaf out of New Zealand's book.

I recently received two awards for tourism design concepts themed on 'Gateways to Wales', with particular emphasis placed on UK domestic transport hubs. It is all well and good telling people about your country domestically and abroad, but a successful campaign should follow visitors upon arrival and throughout their journey. This is something which I experienced whilst over in New Zealand.

Anyway doing my bit for Wales, Pictured: 1 3D physical poster (centred) which could confront you as you stepped off the train for example (the photograph does no justice in demonstrating this), 2D concept left, and 2D concept right (you might recognise the beach). They are all about showing the possibilities of what Wales has to offer, Mountains (road trips, breath taking views, walks for example), Sea (golden beaches, isolation, tranquillity, escapes, breath taking views).

The full-size mock gateway was constructed from one similar I found in the Brecons, this got me thinking along the lines of gateways to Wales, creating the feeling of stepping over or into Wales. The open-wind break onto the beach is a continuation of this theme. Similarly I have other running themes covering other aspects of Wales.

(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/craigrockfield/1466143_713541892043648_512042718411510982_n_zpsafc9c5bc.jpg)
Copyright (C) Craig Ollerton

(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/craigrockfield/10325404_393821654092528_434822894903741875_n_zps0f7f87bb.jpg)
Copyright (C) Craig Ollerton

(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/craigrockfield/10303468_393826534092040_8283714077739925153_n_zps4fbe3548.jpg)
Hire Car Building, Cardiff Airport.
Copyright (C) Craig Ollerton.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DVT on August 13, 2014, 01:26:49 pm
Being critical now, but hopefully constructive!!!

When I used to go to the local camera club the "judges" often dismissed photos which featured a closed gate, saying the gate should be open to allow you through into the picture.  I think the same here, accepting there is a stile, but it does give the impression of having to climb over a fence to get to where you want to go.  Perhaps a half-open gate would be better?

Having got the visitors into Wales we need to sort out the many eyesores so they can appreciate the real beauty of the area properly - but that's another agument!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: craigollerton on August 13, 2014, 02:32:59 pm
Being critical now, but hopefully constructive!!!

When I used to go to the local camera club the "judges" often dismissed photos which featured a closed gate, saying the gate should be open to allow you through into the picture.  I think the same here, accepting there is a stile, but it does give the impression of having to climb over a fence to get to where you want to go.  Perhaps a half-open gate would be better?

Having got the visitors into Wales we need to sort out the many eyesores so they can appreciate the real beauty of the area properly - but that's another agument!

 $good$

Hi DVT, I accept your views. As with anything in design, it is all very subjective and as a designer I take criticism on the chin all the time. I have several renditions of that particular design, these are only possible outcomes and I always take the view that anything can be refined or improved further. For me partially blocking the scene with a style as opposed to an open gate was to suggest the idea of stepping over and into the scene. The style from the Brecons was juxtaposed with the A5 past Betws-y-Coed capturing two thought pathways, one of scenic travel through Wales and one of walks in Wales or using transportation as means of getting there, effectively hitting two birds with one stone.

On the point you make above, another more tangible design concept below of the other poster with the windbreak closed doesn't work quite the same as the wooden style as the style has slats giving partial view through.

Couldn't agree more about your last argument, so many eyesores in Wales now. Don't get me started on the pavilion  _))*

(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/craigrockfield/1780001_375314079276619_497488987_o_zps68454d51.jpg)
Copyright (C) Craig Ollerton.
Design concept, Arrivals, Holyhead Station Platform.

(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/craigrockfield/10156050_371223739685653_491367885_n_zps64de2944.jpg)
Copyright (C) Craig Ollerton.
Collage, sketchbook work leading to design concepts.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 13, 2014, 02:52:52 pm
Is that top one Llandudno railway station?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: craigollerton on August 13, 2014, 03:13:38 pm
Is that top one Llandudno railway station?

Holyhead B2R.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 13, 2014, 04:38:03 pm
Ok, so did you make the poster and then put the windbreaker in front of it to photograph? I'm a bit confused, I assume the windbreaker doesn't stay there all the time?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Mikethewatch on August 13, 2014, 05:15:29 pm
Ok, so did you make the poster and then put the windbreaker in front of it to photograph? I'm a bit confused, I assume the windbreaker doesn't stay there all the time?

In Holyhead ? Id give it 10 mins tops before its nicked !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 14, 2014, 12:25:26 pm
That's what I thought  L0L
Title: Fixed Penalty Litter ''Officers''
Post by: Fester on September 04, 2014, 11:14:22 pm
I have been annoyed and irritated by these unprofessional looking 'characters' for a long time now.
But today, I saw them in action again, and I am incensed!    $angry$ $angry$

Don't get me wrong, I don't like litter, or selfish people causing litter, but there are some real serious issues associated with these people who are employed to prevent it.
I saw 2 very young girls on the pier, (perhaps 18 years), and they were sharing a cigarette on a bench.
The scruffy looking ''officers'' were poised like predators on the bench opposite.
As soon as one girl flicked the cig butt into the sea, they pounced... and immediately hit them BOTH with a £75 fixed fine.
They didn't look like they would ever have the means to pay this amount.
A number of issues sprang to my mind.

1, There was no bins anywhere near the girls, for them to use.
2, There are no signs on the pier to say ''no smoking' .... though I think there should be,
3, There are NO WARNING signs, anywhere (that I have seen), which says there is a £75 fine for those causing litter, or at least not prominently displayed.
4, There was no 'let off, or first warning' for these girls,  it is obviously therefore a money making scam.
5, These ''officers'' look like scruffy youths, certain not professional or official looking.... why should they be taken seriously?
6, Taking the personal details of 'young girls' is questionable at any time in this day and age.... how do we know that other 'unscrupulous' types might copy this, in order to get peoples details.

I could go on and on.... and I have said that I do not want litter,  but there MUST be a better way of policing it than this???



Title: Re: Fixed Penalty Litter ''Officers''
Post by: majormellons on September 05, 2014, 01:43:31 am
Being a bit of a devils advocate, but doesn't everyone know that you can't just drop litter anywhere these days?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 05, 2014, 08:23:03 am
Quote
I could go on and on.... and I have said that I do not want litter,  but there MUST be a better way of policing it than this???

What would you suggest?
Title: Re: Fixed Penalty Litter ''Officers''
Post by: FatAndy on September 05, 2014, 08:51:07 am
I have been annoyed and irritated by these unprofessional looking 'characters' for a long time now.
But today, I saw them in action again, and I am incensed!    $angry$ $angry$

Were they geninue litter inspectors and not just a couple of chancers trying it on?  I don't know if I'm just completely unobservant but I can't recall ever seeing one of these litter inspectors so I don't know what they look like, although I've seen more than enough instances when I wished there was one about.  If they were genuine and they were the ones funded by the council then they shouldn't be on the pier as it's private property, unless the pier owners are contribuing towards the cost.

As for any smoker I have no sympathy whatsoever if they choose to dispose of their litter in an antisocial manner.  Any litter thrown into the sea is likely to get washed up on the beach and given the obsession many people in Llandudno have about preserving the beaches I doubt there'll be too much sympathy shown elsewhere either.  All smokers should invest in one of these - http://www.tarlock.co.uk/stub-pouches.php. (http://www.tarlock.co.uk/stub-pouches.php.)  I don't know how much a packet of fags costs these days but I'm sure if you can afford to buy them you can easily afford £2.25 + £2.99 p&p in order to keep your filthy, stinking waste to yourself and not inflict it on others.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on September 05, 2014, 09:00:48 am
I wouldn't have thought their jurisdiction covered the sea so until it washes up on shore can it be classed as litter or is it jetsam?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on September 05, 2014, 09:15:03 am
I don,t like litter, it is not just cig ends but they are the easy targets,  1 the cig end is still on the ground when they both leave so where is the sense, the pier is private and I heard the manager invited them on I also heard he got fined  oops , I seen an old guy getting a ticket last week (not for a cig end) he was eating a gregs pie a seagull swooped paper blew on floor yes you know the rest they swooped with the ticket  ,common sense they don,t have .  One last thing would you lift the lid up on them filthy blue bins on the prom I have won,t again .
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 05, 2014, 09:26:55 am
Quote
Were they geninue litter inspectors and not just a couple of chancers trying it on?  I don't know if I'm just completely unobservant but I can't recall ever seeing one of these litter inspectors so I don't know what they look like, although I've seen more than enough instances when I wished there was one about.
Quote


That's the problem, you do NOT see them, they should be a deterrent , I said it before, they should be in HI VIS uniforms, not waiting in ambush..... $angry$

they are working on commision and a bonus, what do you expect, this bunch are wrong for what is needed, they do not stop littering, by not being seen... $angry$

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 05, 2014, 10:49:15 am
Quote
I'm sure if you can afford to buy them you can easily afford £2.25 + £2.99 p&p in order to keep your filthy, stinking waste to yourself and not inflict it on others.

Always nice to see disinterested comments...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 05, 2014, 11:07:37 am
Why not throw fag ends into the briny, how on Earth do you think we get smoked Haddock?    :D

These Litter Inspectors are dressed all in black and by the looks of them probably have evening jobs as Nightclub Bouncers.   They have very little identifying marks as to who and what they are.  The company who employ them work purely on a rake off from the £75 FPN's they issue.  There is your incentive to issue as any as possible, when a word in the ear would possibly get more results.

By the appearance of the messin our roads they are much less than effective. :rage:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on September 05, 2014, 11:51:41 am
Time they went up onto the Orme ! Fag ends inches deep at the top of the concrete track.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 05, 2014, 02:04:45 pm
 
Quote
The company who employ them work purely on a rake off from the £75 FPN's they issue.  There is your incentive to issue as many as possible, when a word in the ear would possibly get more results.

They take £45.00 of the fine.......and they are taking the easy route, they are dog wardens also......responsible for dogs, not on leads or leads to long, dog fouling and litter, but the majority comes from smokers and questionable accidental drops...wind....seagulls....and now young girls.......the council might get some revenue, but at what cost.

 $angry$ $angry$           Untill they are a visible deterrent, they are PEST'S             $angry$ $angry$

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 06, 2014, 10:56:06 pm
Quote
I could go on and on.... and I have said that I do not want litter,  but there MUST be a better way of policing it than this???

What would you suggest?

Ermmm, as I intimated in my original post,  I would suggest.
1, Proper Signage,  outlining the threat or penalty people may face for causing litter.
2, Proper Hi-vis or professional looking uniforms.
3, As others have  said.... employ a degree of common sense, or some transparent policy.

Norm... as you rightly say, the Pier Manager invited them on, basically to attack the dog-mess problem.
But I can tell you that he has not been fined by them at all.   One or two concessionaires have though!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 07, 2014, 08:32:11 am
I seem to remember that they once had 'police-style' uniforms but had to change them after protests? And I do believe people are aware that dropping litter will attract a fine.  That's pretty well understood, F, and once you decide to have signs identifying punishable offences, where will it stop?

[smg id=3287]
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 07, 2014, 10:51:33 am



I remember the "police Style" uniform, and spoke to one of them, my impression, was of a retired gentleman, and not of a club bouncer,...so who protested?...
I think people are aware that they should'nt litter,and would be embarrassed, to be pulled up on it,but the old fine was £10 , enough to stop you doing it again, but not enough to think that you had just been robbed by two bandits, and not enough to make you think twice about visiting again.
It is definitley an obstacle to our tourism.                                                                     $angry$
 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: majormellons on September 07, 2014, 11:14:58 am



I remember the "police Style" uniform, and spoke to one of them, my impression, was of a retired gentleman, and not of a club bouncer,...so who protested?...
I think people are aware that they should'nt litter,and would be embarrassed, to be pulled up on it,but the old fine was £10 , enough to stop you doing it again, but not enough to think that you had just been robbed by two bandits, and not enough to make you think twice about visiting again.
It is definitley an obstacle to our tourism.                                                                     $angry$

People trying to keep Llandudno litter free is "definitely an obstacle to our tourism"....Not sure I agree.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 07, 2014, 11:34:02 am
It's not what there doing , it's how there doing it.......of course I do not want litter...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 07, 2014, 03:26:44 pm
It's not what there doing , it's how there doing it.......of course I do not want litter...

I would agree 100% with that! it is possible to accidentally drop something and end up getting fined for it. Yes it is wrong to drop litter but the fine seems out of all proportion to the offence, they would be better employed picking up the litter instead, it sounds like yet another revenue earning enterprise!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 07, 2014, 04:35:28 pm
I suppose one reason why litter continued to be dropped after the penalties were first introduced many years ago was that people weren't being caught. Now they're being caught, but some feel it's wrong to fine them, or fine them so much. I suspect the fines were set at the current levels precisely so private companies would be interested in doing the job.

If the current system is reducing the amount of litter and dog fouling then one has to ask how it can be improved. People will adapt of course. In North Wales most people stick to the speed limits but that wasn't always the case. Brunstrom's single-minded approach to speeding seems to have conditioned the driving population to drive within the limits. Perhaps the same could happen with littering and fouling?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 07, 2014, 06:00:36 pm
I would say that dog fouling and litter are poles apart! I was a litter warden in an Oxfordshire village many years ago, it was a nice little job, I just picked up the litter, not that much really, I never once complained if I saw someone drop anything, they kept me in work! I just think if someone has come on holiday they will be relaxed and may drop the odd thing, they have enough trouble with parking wardens without making their visit even more unpleasant with extreme litter enforcement! 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on September 07, 2014, 08:16:24 pm
Going back a post or two, Fester, are you saying the Pier Manager invited these inspectors onto the pier but he has not ben fined, but a couple of concessionaires have been? I can hardly believe this. I should certainly not think the pier manager would have a pooing dog around him and chucking litter on his own pier. he probably spends all day picking up other peoples litter.
  But have two kiosk operators like yourself actually been fined for dog pooing/litter throwing? If so, I am speechless with amazement.
  If these enforcement operators are so stuck for an income, I can offer them an absolute goldmine. Its a normal morning for me to go out on the course and scoop up a dozen samples left by local dogs. Also the local youths from the estate up here walk down to town. They all seem to be eating/drinking on their walk down. Plastic wrappers are torn off and dropped every ten/twenty yards.
  Never mind about inviting the inspectors. Just give me a uniform and a pad of official summons sheets and to hell with green fees off golfers, I'm on to a winner.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 07, 2014, 09:39:00 pm

If the current system is reducing the amount of litter and dog fouling then one has to ask how it can be improved.

I am not aware of any evidence that the above is actually the case.
As Merddin and many others have said,   the issue is not about being in favour of reducing litter or dog mess, (everyone wants that)... this is about the out of proportion Draconian measures employed to achieve it.

Mike,  one of the concessionaires had a receipt fall from his trouser pocket... his wife pointed to him to pick it up, but before he had chance to do so,   BANG... the scruffy officers had their pads out, and he was £75 poorer.
If it had been me, there would have been an entirely different outcome.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 07, 2014, 09:56:44 pm
I would not have paid either, do they film it happening? Total insanity!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on September 07, 2014, 11:24:24 pm
Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 08, 2014, 07:19:21 am
Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,

Do the Council charge them for this service?  If they don't, they should.

Maybe the Council could also stop giving them a Grant every year!    ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 08, 2014, 08:43:58 am
Quote
Mike,  one of the concessionaires had a receipt fall from his trouser pocket... his wife pointed to him to pick it up, but before he had chance to do so,   BANG... the scruffy officers had their pads out, and he was £75 poorer.
If it had been me, there would have been an entirely different outcome.

It seems that it's not the original (1990) Act that's responsible for all this but the 2005 amendment.  This 

"states that a person
is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise
deposits, and then leaves, any litter in any place to
which this section applies. It is no longer necessary for the
litter to cause or contribute to the defacement of a place."

The 2005 amendment also made anywhere "open to the air" a place to which the section applied, so it's a pretty wide-ranging bit of legislation.  It's also worth noting that it's an offence not to supply your full name and address if one of the litter officers asks for it.

But they do have to be able to prove the bit I've emboldened: that you actually 'left' the item or items in question. The Act doesn't seem to recognise the possibility of accidentally dropping something - such as when you get something out of a pocket and something else falls out.

On the other hand  it's worth remembering that these fairly sweeping bits of litter legislation were brought in because the existing legislation was being widely ignored. Perhaps a compromise would be to form a group to monitor the actions of these litter enforcing officers and document any incidents. Done consistently that would at least provide a clearer and more objective view of what's happening.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 08, 2014, 09:30:29 am
Quote...
"states that a person
is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise
deposits, and then leaves, any litter in any place to
which this section applies. It is no longer necessary for the
litter to cause or contribute to the defacement of a place."

So if you drop something but do not leave then you have not committed an offence, not until you leave without picking it up. So these wardens give you a ticket when you are still there and have not yet technically committed the offence? Do they not say something like " excuse me you seem to have dropped something, we will have to fine you if you do not pick it up! " it still seems purely an exercise to generate money, totally wrong! I wonder if they fine you if you drop a £20 note?  :twoface:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 08, 2014, 10:40:44 am
Yep there you go - they are clearly breaking the law with regards to the leaving of the litter.
All anybody has to say as a defence is 'I was just about to pick it up'
If they further begin to intimidate (which they will as this vermin are purely after their commission) then they will be breaking their own codes of practice with regards to bullying and harassment. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 08, 2014, 11:10:46 am
 :o B2R agreeing with me!  :laugh: the other week my other half found a wallet in the road, we handed it in to the Police and it was returned to the owner who came round with a bunch of flowers! But what if one of these wardens had seen this happen? Would he have fined the wallet owner for dropping it and leaving the scene? The Police didn't fine him for littering, but would the wardens?  :twoface:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 08, 2014, 11:37:11 am
:o B2R agreeing with me!  :laugh: the other week my other half found a wallet in the road, we handed it in to the Police and it was returned to the owner who came round with a bunch of flowers! But what if one of these wardens had seen this happen? Would he have fined the wallet owner for dropping it and leaving the scene? The Police didn't fine him for littering, but would the wardens?  :twoface:

I would like to see the facts if the dropping of litter has decreased since this lot started their 'patrols' I suspect it hasn't and this is another tick box episode - where the council can say 'look we've given it to someone to deal with'
Nothing improves and the only people who suffer are visitors and residents of our town.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 08, 2014, 11:40:08 am
I think that's the crux of it. They have to make a call as to when you've 'left' the litter. That's why I wonder if these stories are accurate.

Some time ago I remember a front page story about an irate motorist who'd been charged for remaining in the Llanrwst co-op car park for too long.  He was adamant he hadn't. Yet what he had done, in fact, was drive out through the 'IN' gate, thus stopping the camera photographing his departure...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 08, 2014, 11:42:57 am

 I wonder if they fine you if you drop a £20 note?  :twoface:

Technically they could, but they may choose to implement the more serious offence of "Attempted bribery and corruption of a duly authorised officer."

Unless of course, they pick it up themselves and bid you a "Good day, Sir!"
 ZXZ
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 08, 2014, 11:40:59 pm
I think that's the crux of it. They have to make a call as to when you've 'left' the litter. That's why I wonder of these stories are accurate.


Actually, I don't think that is the crux of it.
The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: majormellons on September 09, 2014, 01:36:01 am
Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,

Get the wardens there...no skin off my nose.....I don't litter, I've nothing to fear....although the amount of dog walkers who flout the laws on the rugby pitches is disgraceful.
I've asked for a sniper tower and Carte Blanche in shooting a few dog owners, but all I get is 'health and safety won't allow it' :-[
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: majormellons on September 09, 2014, 01:38:38 am
Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,

Do the Council charge them for this service?  If they don't, they should.

Maybe the Council could also stop giving them a Grant every year!    ZXZ

Nice try, but I 'anit biting.

WARNING-DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 09, 2014, 07:21:40 am
Quote
The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.

So are you arguing that incentivisation per se is wrong, or only the way it's used by the litter wardens? If the former, then there are many, many examples of incentives being employed to promote employees' job effectiveness and I can't see how you could eradicate the practice entirely, even if it was felt desirable.  If the latter, then surely all that has to be done is what was suggested - monitor the enforcers for a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 09, 2014, 08:43:53 am
Actually, I don't think that is the crux of it.
The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.

Are the wardens FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can?  I know the company they work for gets more money the more tickets that get issued but that doesn't necessarily mean that the employees do as well.  The only job advert I could find for XFOR, from a few years back, seemed to offer a flat rate salary but no mention of any bonuses.  Maybe the problem is more to do with the wardens being too conscientious about their work?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 09, 2014, 09:55:00 am
Hi FA,  The £75 is split £45 to the wardens, £35 to the council, with a monthly draw for the wardens.....

I think we all agree no littering....I do not think our stealth approach, is working, we would achieve better end results, less littering and a less negative effect on visitors, with a different method.

The picture below, shows a warden in HI VIZ an obvious deterrent, accompanied by someone dressed as a cigarette
handing out anti litter leaflets, I think, this is a more positive approach,... it pays to advertise.
 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 09, 2014, 11:30:07 am
Hi FA,  The £75 is split £45 to the wardens, £35 to the council, with a monthly draw for the wardens.....

Shouldn't that say "£45 to the company that employs the wardens" rather than "to the wardens"?

I do agree about the fancy dress though, it could even boost tourism if the wardens dressed up as discarded fag ends, empty crisp packets or fizzy drink cans.  I can imagine there would be a certain comedic value to seeing a wheezy smoker desperately trying to leg it down Mostyn Street while being chased by a giant half eaten M&S Cheese and Pickle sandwich.  I for one would pay to see that  :D.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on September 09, 2014, 11:31:20 am
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 09, 2014, 12:03:27 pm
Just remembered, yesterday on my way to see the cycle race, I passed The Hambone, and the ground was littered with their distinctive napkins and wooden stir spoons, when I returned, it was worse, and this time, there were no customers, the tables had been cleared and cleaned, I was surprised, it was a poor reflection on this business.  ...outside cafes and takeaways have a responsibility to themselves and the town to keep their area clean. 
So is this LITTERING ......who deals with this?.......


FA.  Like the fancy dress, Great idea.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 09, 2014, 12:33:17 pm
Hi FA,  The £75 is split £45 to the wardens, £35 to the council, with a monthly draw for the wardens.....

Shouldn't that say "£45 to the company that employs the wardens" rather than "to the wardens"?

I do agree about the fancy dress though, it could even boost tourism if the wardens dressed up as discarded fag ends, empty crisp packets or fizzy drink cans.  I can imagine there would be a certain comedic value to seeing a wheezy smoker desperately trying to leg it down Mostyn Street while being chased by a giant half eaten M&S Cheese and Pickle sandwich.  I for one would pay to see that  :D.

Makes no difference really. If the money goes to the company then the company just puts more pressure on the 'wardens' to 'catch' more people. Point is the whole business is operating on financial incentive. They are little more than gangsters in uniforms running a racket. They are scum basically and should be in the 'scum' thread. I for one don't appreciate these bullies being on the street extorting money from locals and visitors alike.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 09, 2014, 02:32:27 pm
Quote
They are scum basically and should be in the 'scum' thread.
Firstly, there is no 'scum' thread.  Secondly, your assertions are your own, and are probably unsubstantiatable. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 09, 2014, 02:40:12 pm
There certainly was a 'scum' thread. You seem to have merged it or deleted it. Whatever you have done doesn't erase the memory of it. Secondly I didn't make any assertions I pointed out that it doesn't matter whether or not the money goes directly to the wardens or the company. That's definitely not an assertion.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on September 09, 2014, 03:31:07 pm
I thought yesterdays visit of the Tour of Britain cycle race was another example of poor communication on a local basis. Road closures were advertised and parking restrictions displayed but there was very little information about the actual race , the route it was taking locally, if there were pedestrian restrictions on where you could view and what time it was all going to happen.
The official T of B web site  wasn't in any local detail,and not everyone, particularly visitors might have access to the internet.
Once again, a "what's on for holidaymakers" paper might help tourists and locals alike . Other places publish them.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 09, 2014, 03:41:30 pm
I saw a lot of tourists, struggling with their luggage, coaches could not get near enough for arrivals or departures, would have thought there was enough time for the hotels and coach co's. to make arrangements .
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: andyCYD on September 09, 2014, 04:00:09 pm
Llandudno seems to be doing well at attracting some big events, but it does seem to fall short on publicising them locally. I am not sure why.

It may be that we have a good team of people tasked with attracting events, but the publicity team is just not so good. Alternatively, I do wonder if there is almost an element of embarrassment because they know that some people are going to moan about disruption, costs etc. and so individuals want to distance themselves from the event in case it goes wrong.

I thought the degree of disruption was incredibly low considering the scale of the event. And how often do you get to see a national sporting event involving real stars (e.g. Wiggens and Cavendish) for free.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on September 09, 2014, 04:08:20 pm
I guess the scale of disruption is relative to individual perception. None of the hotels on the front could take in new arrivals before 4.30pm for example, how that affects running the business I don't know but hopefully they were all too busy selling afternoon teas instead !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on September 09, 2014, 04:33:45 pm
Depends which way you look at this--the hotels who cater for some of the older people would have one hell of a problem.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 09, 2014, 04:49:31 pm
Quote
Secondly I didn't make any assertions

Quote
They are little more than gangsters in uniforms running a racket. They are scum basically

In fact, almost libellous.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 09, 2014, 04:54:13 pm
There is a big difference between an assertion and an OPINION 

That was my opinion which I stand by. People who harrass people, often vulnerable people, for money are IMHO gangsters.

But please carry on trying to stifle any form of interesting debate as you so often do.  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 09, 2014, 05:11:30 pm
Quote
But please carry on trying to stifle any form of interesting debate as you so often do

Well, I don't. What I do is determine when people are making assertions as opposed to opinions.

Assertion: a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief

That's what you're doing. Had you prefaced it with "I think..." then it would have been fine. Choose your words more carefully but continue to enjoy "any form of interesting debate" that isn't potentially libellous. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 09, 2014, 05:39:36 pm
Whilst I strongly dislike the methods used to enforce the litter law, they are people who wanted a job, that does not make them scum or gangsters. I would blame the system / CCBC / whatever that led to this stage!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 10, 2014, 12:00:48 am
Having seen the 'officers' at first hand on a daily basis,  having weighed up how they look, how they conduct themselves and having witnessed the impact on their 'victims',  I find myself in agreement with...............

.........BORN TO RUN!

However, I have qualified all my comments on this subject by saying that WE ALL surely want less litter etc, but this is just the wrong way to go about it.

Incidentally,  that most offensive of litter, dog poo, is STILL evident on the pier every morning, and every night..... because this is when most dog walkers are on there largely unseen,  and it is precisely when the wardens are NOT working!

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 10, 2014, 07:41:35 am
Quote
but this is just the wrong way to go about it.

I understand what you're saying about their approach and technique but we lack statistics on everything in this case. We don't know if their existence has led to a decline in the amount of litter, we don't know if they are behaving as badly as some stories would suggest and we have no idea if their work has resulted in fewer visitors. Everything we're actually discussing is based on little more than anecdotal evidence and what we need is significantly more empirical evidence. The only things about which we can be certain is that they don't appear to be costing CCBC anything and they may well be raising money through the fines for CCBC.

I'd liken them to speed cameras. No one likes being caught by them, yet they only normally catch those who break the law. Until we have compelling evidence, as opposed to casual observations, then I believe it's impossible to draw any conclusions.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 10, 2014, 08:50:01 am
Incidentally,  that most offensive of litter, dog poo, is STILL evident on the pier every morning, and every night..... because this is when most dog walkers are on there largely unseen,  and it is precisely when the wardens are NOT working!

I'm sure I remember that once upon a time dogs were banned from the pier so perhaps the solution is bring back that ban?  There are plenty of far more suitable places around to walk a dog, especially considering the lack of grass verges along the pier.

The other possible solution would be for dog owners to purchase a pack of Doggy Diapers.....which I will be presenting to the Dragons on the next series of Dragons Den.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 10, 2014, 08:53:57 am

The other possible solution would be for dog owners to purchase a pack of Doggy Diapers.....which I will be presenting to the Dragons on the next series of Dragons Den.

Too late, mate!  It's already been done.   :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 10, 2014, 08:57:07 am
I've often wondered what happens with guide dogs? The owners can't pick up after them, so what happens?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 10, 2014, 09:01:28 am
I've often wondered what happens with guide dogs? The owners can't pick up after them, so what happens?

I thought that was interesting so I googled it and found this

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/25/blind-man-ian-bradwell-fined-after-failing-to-pick-up-guide-dogs-poo_n_1451957.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/25/blind-man-ian-bradwell-fined-after-failing-to-pick-up-guide-dogs-poo_n_1451957.html)

Seems it doesn't happen often but they are exempt from fines
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on September 10, 2014, 09:07:10 am
Andy my dog loves her walk along the pier  I am one of the sensible owners it annoys me when people don,t pick the poo up ,3rolls of bags cost 99p from home bargains ,that is what them guys should monitor more instead of stalking smokers ,I would sooner stand on a cig end than dog crap .
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 10, 2014, 09:59:06 am
Here is a quote from an interesting article....."The Corruption of Punishment" how litter fines became a business

"Such financial incentives have led to a corruption of pun
ishment. The official issuing the fine has a (direct or indirect)
financial interest in punishing people. Their concern becomes
not to discharge a public service, but to look for people they can
fine. There is no room for leniency, or for issuing a warning, since
every missed fine is missed income."

Full article...
http://www.manifestoclub.com/files/corruptionofpunishment.pdf (http://www.manifestoclub.com/files/corruptionofpunishment.pdf)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 10, 2014, 10:42:03 am
Beware..........................(I wanted the theme from "Jaws" playing in the background, not that clever.)

"On Tuesday a young mother was given a £75 fixed penalty notice for throwing bread to the ducks in her local park.

According to the report, a warden approached Vanessa Kelly and her 17-month-old son Harry, and issued them with the FPN for littering."  (Sandwell Council)      >>>
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 10, 2014, 11:48:58 am
You see there is evidence I just couldn't be bothered to look for it.

Thanks Steve  $good$

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx)

1000 people a year ago - this racket is big business
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 10, 2014, 12:28:53 pm
The ducks incident took place 5 years ago and the council backed down:

"A council backed down today over a fine issued to a young mother for feeding the ducks with her 17-month-old son, pledging to adopt a "common sense approach".

Vanessa Kelly, 26, was given a £75 fixed penalty notice for littering last Tuesday, after a warden saw her and her son throwing bread at a duck pond in Smethwick Hall Park in the West Midlands.

Ms Kelly, from Oldbury, West Midlands, was told she was not in a "designated feeding area", but today Sandwell Council dropped the fine and promised to improved signage in the park.

The council's deputy leader, Councillor Darren Cooper, said: "We will take a common sense approach to this matter and for this reason we will not pursue payment for Vanessa Kelly's fixed penalty notice while we improve signs at Smethwick Hall Park.

"The new signs will make it abundantly clear that feeding of waterfowl is not allowed at all in this park and that anyone observed feeding the geese and any other birds will receive a fixed penalty notice."

Do we have any recent evidence concerning Llandudno?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 10, 2014, 01:25:58 pm
You see there is evidence I just couldn't be bothered to look for it.

Thanks Steve  $good$

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx)

1000 people a year ago - this racket is big business

The other way to interpret this is that there are still far too many people out there who haven't yet got the message that their anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.  To me that suggests there's a continued need for enforcement and perhaps even a need for more enforcement.  The Pioneer article is actually quite useful as a deterrent in that it helps to make people more aware of the potential consequences of littering but I'd like to see far more publicity around this.  Perhaps a weekly "name & shame" column in the Pioneer showing the faces of offenders?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 10, 2014, 01:29:53 pm
Andy my dog loves her walk along the pier  I am one of the sensible owners it annoys me when people don,t pick the poo up ,3rolls of bags cost 99p from home bargains ,that is what them guys should monitor more instead of stalking smokers ,I would sooner stand on a cig end than dog crap .

What about his number threes?  Personally given the choice I'd rather not stand on a cig end, drop crap or in a puddle of urine  &shake&.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on September 10, 2014, 02:20:21 pm


So many missed opportunities, the Tour costs could have easily been recovered...those fine collectors have bikes too don't they ?


(http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q212/Rioja_1/Isthatlitter17738.jpg) (http://s137.photobucket.com/user/Rioja_1/media/Isthatlitter17738.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 10, 2014, 02:54:14 pm
You see there is evidence I just couldn't be bothered to look for it.

Thanks Steve  $good$

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/123836/1-000-people-fined-in-conwy-county-for-littering.aspx)

1000 people a year ago - this racket is big business

The other way to interpret this is that there are still far too many people out there who haven't yet got the message that their anti-social behaviour will not be tolerated.  To me that suggests there's a continued need for enforcement and perhaps even a need for more enforcement.  The Pioneer article is actually quite useful as a deterrent in that it helps to make people more aware of the potential consequences of littering but I'd like to see far more publicity around this.  Perhaps a weekly "name & shame" column in the Pioneer showing the faces of offenders?

Problem with that is the Pioneer don't want to get into legal problems by naming individuals.
No what we need is some kind of local anonymous blog, something that can tackle the issues in our town head on and name and shame all the individuals involved.

 _))*
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 10, 2014, 03:41:06 pm
Quote
Just to keep Ian happy. I must clarify that the above statement is all my opinion that I think

Quote
You can't say all of them behave in an abrupt almost aggressive manner. That's a ridiculous generalisation.

Quote
They are little more than gangsters in uniforms running a racket. They are scum basically and should be in the 'scum' thread. I for one don't appreciate these bullies being on the street extorting money from locals and visitors alike.





Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 10, 2014, 03:55:43 pm
You're good at taking things out of context D)

I said

"You can't say all of them behave in an abrupt almost aggressive manner. That's a ridiculous generalisation."

About Fester generalising about orthodox Jews - The equalities act 2010 protects people of "religion, belief or lack of religion/belief"

Now as these litter police gangster/nazi/scrotes are not as I'm aware, any kind of organised religion or race I can say exactly what I like about them.

I believe their organisation is a racket. It should be illegal, and that anybody doing that job should be ASHAMED of themselves.

Now if you don't agree with me that's fine  $good$ I welcome some debate. But lets not be silly and go dredging up other posts that have nothing to do with this whatsoever.

Thank you
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 10, 2014, 04:02:49 pm
Quote
You're good at taking things out of context

Indeed? It's what you've said - nothing more.

Let's get this straight.  You berated Fester for 'generalising'. That's a fact. You then proceeded to generalise. Your defence is because the employees of a company dedicated to litter law enforcement don't constitute a religion it's fine to abuse them? Whether I agree with you or not has no bearing on this. You are generalising about a company's employees, which you seem to think is quite acceptable, when you feel that generalising about a religious group isn't. 

Doesn't vilifying employees go against the grain?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 10, 2014, 04:56:51 pm
I have said as a whole I don't agree with what this company do
I have said that as a whole this company's employees use harassment and intimidation in order to get 'results'

I'm not generalising at all because this is merely my opinion of these people based around what they do with regards to their work.

It is not a personal generalisation or attack of a group of people based purely on religion or race but an opinion based on what this company openly does for a living.

two completely different things.

As I'm sure you clearly see, but are being reactionary purely for the sake of it.

 ££$

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 10, 2014, 06:07:05 pm
Quote
It is not a personal generalisation or attack of a group of people

Quote
They are little more than gangsters in uniforms running a racket. They are scum

You may disagree with what the company does and how they do it, but does that give you the right to call the employees en masse 'scum,'?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 10, 2014, 06:42:01 pm
Irrespective of what we think of these Litter etc. Wardens, it is as well to realise they are, in fact, a civilian version of the Police.  They police certain offences which have been decriminalised and can therefore be dealt with by Fixed Penalty Notices.  Just like any other appointed officer some are a little more exuberant than others and will issue a FPN at any opportunity.  Others will take a more soft approach and give just a warning for minor infringements.
This difference in approach to the job is also found in the Council's own Parking Wardens who do not receive any incentive to do their job or any special targets to achieve.

If one is aggrieved by the manner in which they, or others, are treated, there is the safety net of an appeals procedure which is generally regarded as thorough and fair.
 ££$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 10, 2014, 11:31:43 pm
Anyone passing comment on the activities of these 'operatives', should spend some time (as I have) watching them in action.
Also, you will see the disproportionate effect they have on their 'prey'
Until you have witnessed their appearance, activities and over-zealous methods, I do not believe that you can have a balanced opinion.

Therefore, on balance, having weighed up everything posted here, and annoying though he can often be...I come down on the side of.........

............ BORN TO RUN!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 11, 2014, 07:15:35 am
Quote
Until you have witnessed their appearance, activities and over-zealous methods, I do not believe that you can have a balanced opinion.

From Born2run
Quote
There's a chance, a very small one, that every single one you have ever encountered has been abrupt and aggressive, but there is no way you have met every single one of them and so your labelling of them is ,as I pointed out, 'a terrible generalisation'  You cannot label a whole set of people as abrupt and aggressive.

I'm not debating the issue of their existence, their attitudes or their behaviour; I'm simply curious as to how someone can be so adamant that it's wrong to make generalisations about a group, then makes...er, generalisations about a group. They may well be dreadful human beings, hiding in nooks and crannies and awaiting their opportunity to pounce on the unwary nun for dropping holy water by accident. I can't speak to the veracity or otherwise of those comments, other than to note we don't have sufficient disinterested evidence to make a judgement.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on September 11, 2014, 08:42:57 am
I see the Baytree traffic island has now been reinstated.

I wonder how many bits of broken pavement in town could have been repaired with that £10,000.  &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: bigbadhenry on September 11, 2014, 08:56:43 am
Litter Wardens should spend some time between John Brights School and Asda/McDonald's.
The pupils buy lunch there and guess what happens to the packaging.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 11, 2014, 09:04:23 am
I see the Baytree traffic island has now been reinstated.

I wonder how many bits of broken pavement in town could have been repaired with that £10,000.  &shake&

Hosting the Tour will probably bring in a £1,000,000+ boost to the Conwy economy so I can't see any problem with spending £10,000 to make that happen.  In fact I'd have be extremely disappointed if Conwy Council hadn't seen the big picture here and I'm sure lots of local business would have been pretty peed off to lose out on a cash windfall if the council hadn't acted as they did.  Maybe some of the extra money can be put to good use and spent on the really important matters that concern us all like planting more petunias along Llandudno promenade ???.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on September 11, 2014, 09:10:17 am
Hosting the Tour will probably bring in a £1,000,000+ boost to the Conwy economy
Probably? Not definitely then? Where did you get this figure from; can it be quantified or is it just pr spin?  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 11, 2014, 09:13:41 am
I would hope they are not allowed to prey on Children.

Ian, however nice and lovely and charming some of the employees may well be, I couldn't care less, I do not like what they do nor the way they do it. They may well spend their evenings saving kittens and helping the homeless but that doesn't change my opinion of the fact that during the hours they are doing that job I think they are scum.
The fine is disproportionate to the offence - they do not wear high vis and therefore don't have intentions of stopping people dropping litter but rather waiting in prey to 'catch' someone. Thirdly and most importantly to me they don't know or care who they are victimising - that person may be elderly (or young and naive as in Fester's example) they may have a debilitating physical or mental illness and I don't believe these people are equipped or adequately trained (as the Police are) to deal with these issues.
I'm sure if you had a vulnerable friend or family member who had been accosted by these people and had been left traumatised after the indecent, you yourself would feel quite differently.

The only evidence I need to base my 'generalisation' of these people on is the fact they are willing to do this job, nothing more, nothing less.

That's my answer Ian, if you're not happy with it I'm sorry.


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 11, 2014, 09:34:40 am
Hosting the Tour will probably bring in a £1,000,000+ boost to the Conwy economy
Probably? Not definitely then? Where did you get this figure from; can it be quantified or is it just pr spin?  :laugh:

It's probably too early to tell but I'm guestimating and maybe being a but conservative in my guestimate given that last year, for example, when the tour passed through Devon is provided a £5.9m boost to the local economy - http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Tour-Britain-returns-economic-boost-Devon/story-22045814-detail/story.html. (http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Tour-Britain-returns-economic-boost-Devon/story-22045814-detail/story.html.)

I've also seen elsewhere that each stage of the Tour generates a net visitor spend of £3m and as the finishing line seems to be the centre of attention each day I'd guess that the area where the finishing line is located gets a fair share of that £3m.

http://brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/wiggins-tour-britain-confirmation-boost/ (http://brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/wiggins-tour-britain-confirmation-boost/)

Whatever the actual figure turns out to be I'm sure it will be well in excess of the economic boost provided by any number of flower beds on Llandudno promenade  :roll:.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on September 11, 2014, 09:44:16 am
So you're actually just guessing then?  :P

I wonder if any of the local traders on the forum can comment on whether they received a share of the supposed £1,000,000 boost to the economy on Monday?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 11, 2014, 10:05:10 am
or from the other supposedly £1,000,000 from the Wales Rally GB.

Sometimes, I think the organisers of these events should be paying CCBC to allow them to come here.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: andyCYD on September 11, 2014, 10:12:37 am
Surely everyone has said what they need to about the litter wardens. And the Tour of Britain has been and gone - some of you think it was great and others may not.

Perhaps we can have an 'ongoing arguments' topic on the forum so that the topics that interest me do not become cluttered with disagreements between individuals.

Thanks
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on September 11, 2014, 11:32:33 am
So you're actually just guessing then?  :P

I wonder if any of the local traders on the forum can comment on whether they received a share of the supposed £1,000,000 boost to the economy on Monday?

errrrrrrrr- No !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 11, 2014, 12:05:35 pm
Surely everyone has said what they need to about the litter wardens. And the Tour of Britain has been and gone - some of you think it was great and others may not.

Perhaps we can have an 'ongoing arguments' topic on the forum so that the topics that interest me do not become cluttered with disagreements between individuals.

Thanks

I thought the whole thing was the ongoing arguments forum  _))*

Anyway people are always moaning about seeing posts they don't like, I honestly don't get it! it's a forum - for the public, some people will have the cheek to talk about things you don't want to hear about. Tough. Either ignore it or go on a website dedicated to the things you want to read about.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 11, 2014, 02:28:42 pm
Just remembered, yesterday on my way to see the cycle race, I passed The Hambone, and the ground was littered with their distinctive napkins and wooden stir spoons, when I returned, it was worse, and this time, there were no customers, the tables had been cleared and cleaned, I was surprised, it was a poor reflection on this business.  ...outside cafes and takeaways have a responsibility to themselves and the town to keep their area clean. 
So is this LITTERING ......who deals with this?.......
Litter Wardens should spend some time between John Brights School and Asda/McDonald's.
The pupils buy lunch there and guess what happens to the packaging
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should shops be held responsible for their litter, and the adjacent area?
Should schools make pupils aware...more respect for their town, not just litter, public gardens, I have seen schoolboys take great delight in destroying flower beds etc.
Can/should a litter warden fine/warn  schoolchildren.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 11, 2014, 05:24:44 pm
Quote
I'm sure if you had a vulnerable friend or family member who had been accosted by these people and had been left traumatised after the indecent, you yourself would feel quite differently.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. This is not about them in any way.  It's about you describing a group of people employed to do a job as 'scum'. Do you not admit it's a generalisation? The points you make about uniforms, vulnerable people and disproportionate fines are irrelevant to the point I've been making consistently. They are, in the realms of logic, what are deemed 'straw men' and contribute nothing to the debate.

Here's the point: you had a go - at some length - at Fester when you accused him of generalising about a group of people. Notwithstanding the fact that he didn't actually impute any of the things you claim he did, you then went on to generalise yourself in much blunter and more vituperative terms, by calling members of this community 'scum'.

My point is very simple: leaving the actual litter wardens out of it, do you accept that

1. Fester did not generalise
2. You in fact inferred that from what Fester had written.
3. You condemned Fester for generalising about a group (when he didn't)
4. You then went on to generalise about another group.


There may well be a lot of substance in your issues with the litter enforcement agency but that's not the point.  To quote your own words in this context , "You can't say all of them behave [like scum]. That's a ridiculous generalisation."



(I can't believe I'm going to these lengths in defence of Fester either...)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 11, 2014, 06:19:29 pm
It's not just us...    Litter wardens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 11, 2014, 10:36:15 pm
On the subject of Litter Wardens,    Thanks to Ian and B2R,  I love both of you Guys.   :-*
But..... I like generalising,  it allows me to be as prejudiced as I like, and it makes life very simple for me.
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.
The rest it is just noise..... but being defended makes a nice change!


On the subject of the Bike Race 'Bonanza'
Well, most of the Pier shops closed for the day, realising that access to the Pier would be nigh on impossible for any customers.
Those who were foolish enough to open reported that it was a complete waste of time.
So,  it might be nice if some of this 'Million Quid' could be pushed the way of traders, as compensation, for LOST income, rather than this fictitious boost to trade? 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 08:31:37 am
Quote
It's not just us...    Litter wardens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s)

Fascinating sociological study of the Superman dilemma: what happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object. Who'd be anything even remotely official in Merseyside?

Interestingly, the fact that the litter had been deposited on private property makes no legal difference whatsoever. The anti-litter legislation covers everything in the UK 'open to the air'.

Quote
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.

I wonder if this isn't a similar situation to the early 'bouncer' firms? I'm very aware that a sage comment by ME was overlooked, earlier, when he observed this is not a lot to do with the wardens per se, but to do with the oversight, training and management, both by the companies of their employees and of the council with regard to the company.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 08:38:50 am
Seems Merseyside is not the place to become a Litter enforcement operative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_niIOcgPo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5c_niIOcgPo)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 08:41:06 am
This is how the Police treat things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUoqsEDHmo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrUoqsEDHmo)

In this instance, of course, he was filming close to Windsor Castle, and had there been a serious incident shortly afterwards, then the Police would have been expected to explain why they allowed filming by someone who refused to say why he was filming.  Of course,had he been a terrorist planning an attack, he certainly wouldn't have refused to say anything - unless he was a pretty dim terrorist.

But Yorkie's comment about their status, earlier, does pose the question as to exactly what powers the enforcement officers have.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2014, 11:15:22 am
Quote
It's not just us...    Litter wardens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUgZ-6JdF4s)

Fascinating sociological study of the Superman dilemma: what happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object. Who'd be anything even remotely official in Merseyside?

Interestingly, the fact that the litter had been deposited on private property makes no legal difference whatsoever. The anti-litter legislation covers everything in the UK 'open to the air'.

Quote
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.

I wonder if this isn't a similar situation to the early 'bouncer' firms? I'm very aware that a sage comment by ME was overlooked, earlier, when he observed this is not a lot to do with the wardens per se, but to do with the oversight, training and management, both by the companies of their employees and of the council with regard to the company.

Ian.. HONESTLY I think Fester did generalise and I think I didn't! I don't think we are ever going to agree on those things, if we keep arguing it is going to go on and on and I will need to get some beer in  Z**

But I see the point you make, and how it can be easily conceived. Your comparisons with bouncers make my point even clearer.

I hate the job these 'wardens' do. I hate them for doing it

Bouncers on the other hand have a very different job are not there to dish out hugely disproportionate fines and ruin people's evenings. They are they to protect the patrons and keep away undesirables from ruining people's night out.

Now - I do agree there are some 'corrupt' bouncers and some of them are indeed 'scum' some of them use the job to bully people and to drug deal and do all sorts of things (and having worked in security I know this all to well)
But the difference is, and the reason I can if you like 'generalise' about the litter Gestapo is that the bouncers job description is not to do these things, in fact it is to do the opposite.
The Litter Wombles job description though is quite clearly to 'catch people' if they don't catch people and slap a ridiculously unfair fine on them and ruin their holiday, then they don't get paid.

That's why I feel quite comfortable saying what I like about ALL litter wardens.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 12:56:30 pm
Quote
The Litter Wombles job description though is quite clearly to 'catch people'

Indeed, and as Yorkie aptly pointed out they are a civilian branch of the Police, inasmuch as their job is to enforce the law. The level of fine is set by CCBC, I suspect, within the range specified by Parliament so - again - not the fault of the individuals themselves. If we're to clinically analyse the issue then it comes down to how dedicated the individual wardens are and - probably most importantly - whether any bias is demonstrated towards specific groups of people - i.e. the vulnerable, etc.

Thus, if the issue is the level of fine, then it is CCBC or Parliament who need to be dealt with.  If it is the approach adopted by them, then you do need solid evidence, and not simply anecdotal stories.

I think the issue of whether this is scaring off holidaymakers is totally unknown, and the question has to be asked if rubbish, cigarette ends, cans and paper strewn everywhere might not do a better job.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 12, 2014, 04:17:03 pm
I've still never seen one anywhere! What do they look like?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 12, 2014, 04:38:52 pm
Nearest I can find M.E.


Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2014, 04:40:40 pm
I've never seen one either, but what is the problem here?    Is it the approach of these "Environmental Officers"  or are people simply objecting to the fact that visitors and locals alike can be fined for dropping litter?
It's not as if you can really educate people to stop dropping litter because they should be aware anyway.  They have tried it with cigarettes and even the notice on the packet "Smoking Kills" doesn't deter them, as you can see from the evidence on the ground every where.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 12, 2014, 05:31:05 pm
From what we hear on this forum, it seems that if you drop something even accidentally then they pounce and issue a fine on the spot, no warning just a fine. As I said I have not personally seen it so have no evidence myself. To me it would seem reasonable for them to say "excuse me you have dropped xxxx could you please pick it up?" If the person say's " sorry I had not noticed" then picks it up then to me end of problem! It seems not to work like that but that they hide waiting to catch people and fine them to raise money for the enforcement company and CCBC. As I say though I never see them anywhere, although that could be because I don't go to Llandudno that often these days!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 12, 2014, 06:46:52 pm
Hi M.E.
"As I say though I never see them anywhere, although that could be because I don't go to Llandudno that often these days!"

You do not see them, because they are not in uniform, as I think they should be, more of a deterrent, and less impact on tourism.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 12, 2014, 06:56:15 pm
No uniform? Like CID!? No deterrent factor then, just out to get cash!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 12, 2014, 07:08:22 pm
Just been thinking, if they do not have a uniform, what is to stop anyone setting up in business as a fake litter warden, with fake id, fake notebook etc? Just a thought!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 07:10:11 pm
Quote
No uniform? Like CID!? No deterrent factor then, just out to get cash!

I'm fairly certain that when they started they had complete uniforms, but had to reduce their appearance as people caught complained they were masquerading as the Police 

:Sisyphus:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 07:13:32 pm
Yes - I'm right:

"The uniformed presence of enforcement officers assists in providing public reassurance. Officers can be clearly identified by their uniform and are equipped with body worn video cameras that record the interaction with offenders."

CCBC 2012

But people objected to being caught, so they were forced to change...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 07:15:58 pm
Quite a bit more on the website:

"Neither is it a requirement that signs are in place informing you that it is an offence to drop litter.

If you drop litter it's a crime - saying you 'didn't realise you'd littered' will not be accepted as an excuse. Everyone has a responsibility to keep Conwy a clean and safe area to live, work and visit."
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2014, 07:19:13 pm
And more...

"Cllr Philip Evans, Conwy’s Cabinet Member for Regulation said: “It is everyone’s responsibility to keep Conwy a clean and attractive place to live, work and visit.

“Littering is not acceptable - put your litter in a bin or take it home with you.”

Dog fouling is one of the main priorities which has been highlighted by the residents of Conwy county.”

Cllr Mike Priestley, Conwy’s Cabinet Member for Environment said: “Be warned - if you drop cigarette stubs, chewing gum, litter or you don’t pick up after your dog you can expect a tap on the shoulder and a £75 fine.”

Enforcement is mainly concentrated on the towns of Colwyn Bay and Llandudno and involves uniformed officers stationed full-time to check for any offences regarding environmental crime.

Body cameras are worn to review and manage the conduct of enforcement officers and to record video and audio evidence.

They are switched on when interacting with a person that has committed the offence, once that person has been informed that they will be filmed.

Out of the tickets issued 954 were for littering, three for dog fouling and 12 were for dog control issues.

A total of 65 per cent of fixed penalty notices issues are paid without further intervention, whilst a percentage of the remaining 35 per cent are listed before the court."
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on September 12, 2014, 08:50:54 pm
   I don't really know if this is of any interest, but the statistic mentioned by Ian from the CBC report, 300 plus litter droppers to one dog fouler.
  This MUST depend on the area patrolled by the observers. O.K. it could well be correct for Mostyn Street. But get a bit more out of the town centre---say Happy Valley. Possibly 200 litter bugs and a 100 dog fowlers.
West Shore---anybodys guess, maybe 50/50. But dog walking areas with no eating facilities around? Just watch where you are walking.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 12, 2014, 09:01:05 pm
Ref. Ian

"Body cameras are worn to review and manage the conduct of enforcement officers and to record video and audio evidence.
They are switched on when interacting with a person that has committed the offence, once that person has been informed that they will be filmed."

I'd heard they do not film the incident,  as Ian has found, when they stop you.!!!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 12, 2014, 10:01:44 pm
The Officers on the YouTube clip in Liverpool, looked very official and were clearly marked with Environmental Enforecement logos on the uniforms.   If I was approached by them, I would realise I was in the presence of officialdom, they were filming all incidents and I would simply say 'fair cop' ..... they hated being filmed though, and reacted ridiculously to it.

The 'Officers' in Llandudno look NOTHING like that, they wear unmarked, and scruffy black fleeces.  They look for all the world like unemployed lads hanging around town, loitering on corners and up to no good.   Or at best, fairground ride operators.
I can confirm that they HAVE NO CAMERAS, so how they propose to make convictions stick is anyone's guess.

CCBC might have the right idea,  but completely the WRONG way of executing it.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 13, 2014, 02:42:48 pm
Thought just went through my mind.....Obstacles to Tourism...........Contradiction in terms.

LITTER,DOG MUCK,FAG ENDS.............................LLANDUDNO'S LITTER WARDEN'S              WWW
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 17, 2014, 05:11:41 pm
Quote
The Litter Wombles job description though is quite clearly to 'catch people'

, then you do need solid evidence, and not simply anecdotal stories.

I think the issue of whether this is scaring off holidaymakers is totally unknown, .

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/133135/woman-fined-75-for-littering-after-binning-cigarette-butt-in-conwy.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/133135/woman-fined-75-for-littering-after-binning-cigarette-butt-in-conwy.aspx)

"I can’t say I’d be in a hurry to recommend Conwy as a place to visit if things like this can happen to you there"

That will do I think
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 17, 2014, 05:14:54 pm
"On Tuesday a young mother was given a £75 fixed penalty notice for throwing bread to the ducks in her local park.
According to the report, a warden approached Vanessa Kelly and her 17-month-old son Harry, and issued them with the FPN for littering."  (Sandwell Council)      (case and fine dropped later)
These new signs appearing in Llandudno......Does this come under the wardens jurisdiction?
In case it cannot be read, it says at the bottom, section 87 env. pro. act 1990  £2.500 fine for littering including foodstuffs.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 17, 2014, 05:17:24 pm
If the Seagulls swoop down and guzzle it then surely that isn't littering!!!  L0L
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 17, 2014, 05:44:33 pm
If the Seagulls swoop down and guzzle it then surely that isn't littering!!!

The way it's going, you could be fined, (I think), and a lot of people are against feeding them anyway, but the most likely offender is going to be a tourist, part of their holiday!...with the usual result, are they going to come back? Below is an extract from the piece you found ..

“I just burst into tears because I was totally embarrassed, humiliated and completely bewildered as to how I could have been accused of something I did not do.”
Miss Graham was in the town with 30 fellow students from the University of Glasgow, and said her ordeal “ruined” her visit to Wales.
She added: “The implication that I would visit Wales and behave in this disrespectful manner has completely ruined my visit and I can’t say I’d be in a hurry to recommend Conwy as a place to visit if things like this can happen to you there.”

After she sent a detailed appeal to Conwy Council, the authority withdrew the fine and apologised.

A spokesperson said: “If someone disagrees that they have committed an offence or feel that it was unreasonable for us, or someone authorised by us, to issue them with a Fixed Penalty Notice then we ask that they send an appeal in writing to Regulatory Services.

So is that 31 tourists not coming back?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 17, 2014, 06:15:28 pm
The way it's going, you could be fined, (I think), and a lot of people are against feeding them anyway, but the most likely offender is going to be a tourist, part of their holiday!...with the usual result, are they going to come back? Below is an extract from the piece you found ..

“I just burst into tears because I was totally embarrassed, humiliated and completely bewildered as to how I could have been accused of something I did not do.”
Miss Graham was in the town with 30 fellow students from the University of Glasgow, and said her ordeal “ruined” her visit to Wales.
She added: “The implication that I would visit Wales and behave in this disrespectful manner has completely ruined my visit and I can’t say I’d be in a hurry to recommend Conwy as a place to visit if things like this can happen to you there.”

After she sent a detailed appeal to Conwy Council, the authority withdrew the fine and apologised.

A spokesperson said: “If someone disagrees that they have committed an offence or feel that it was unreasonable for us, or someone authorised by us, to issue them with a Fixed Penalty Notice then we ask that they send an appeal in writing to Regulatory Services.

So is that 31 tourists not coming back?

You can get fined in Glasgow for dropping fag ends so she won't be any safer when she gets home.

"Facts and Figures - Year 2010 / to date

    6,580 Fixed Penalty Notices issued:
    345 for litter
    5,714 for cigarettes
    83 for domestic refuse/litter (flytipping)
    438 for dog fouling"


http://www.saferglasgow.com/what-we-do/enforcement-services/community-enforcement-officers.aspx (http://www.saferglasgow.com/what-we-do/enforcement-services/community-enforcement-officers.aspx)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 17, 2014, 06:35:30 pm
Hi FA. Can't argue with the figures, same all over now, but it still comes back to how they do it,.... the easy pickings ....stealth approach,

Quote from Fester...The Officers on the YouTube clip in Liverpool, looked very official and were clearly marked with Environmental Enforecement logos on the uniforms.   If I was approached by them, I would realise I was in the presence of officialdom, they were filming all incidents and I would simply say 'fair cop' .....

Our lot still need to be seen....
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 17, 2014, 07:25:45 pm
So if a seagull swoops down and knocks food from your hand, you will probably get fined for littering!
The sign in the pic also seems to say 'no bags of chips'  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 18, 2014, 12:43:11 am
So if a seagull swoops down and knocks food from your hand, you will probably get fined for littering!
The sign in the pic also seems to say 'no bags of chips'  :laugh:

I was thinking the very same.... on BOTH counts!
P.S, Andy.... are you going to see The Guvnor at VC on Saturday?  We are.  Z** Z**
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 18, 2014, 08:00:59 am
So if a seagull swoops down and knocks food from your hand, you will probably get fined for littering!
The sign in the pic also seems to say 'no bags of chips'  :laugh:

I was thinking the very same.... on BOTH counts!
P.S, Andy.... are you going to see The Guvnor at VC on Saturday?  We are.  Z** Z**

 :laugh: yes we are going, we have front row seats! How brave is that!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 18, 2014, 07:47:11 pm
So if a seagull swoops down and knocks food from your hand, you will probably get fined for littering!
The sign in the pic also seems to say 'no bags of chips'  :laugh:

I was thinking the very same.... on BOTH counts!
P.S, Andy.... are you going to see The Guvnor at VC on Saturday?  We are.  Z** Z**


 :laugh: yes we are going, we have front row seats! How brave is that!  :laugh:

VERY brave indeed!!
We will be peering down on you, from the side balcony thingy.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 18, 2014, 10:19:04 pm
We're going to Blackpool tomorrow until Sunday so for the first time ever we'll have to miss Mr Murray's visit to VC  :(.  Hopefully next time he'll remember to consult with us first before finalising his tour dates.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 19, 2014, 11:03:30 am
So if a seagull swoops down and knocks food from your hand, you will probably get fined for littering!
The sign in the pic also seems to say 'no bags of chips'  :laugh:

I was thinking the very same.... on BOTH counts!
P.S, Andy.... are you going to see The Guvnor at VC on Saturday?  We are.  Z** Z**


 :laugh: yes we are going, we have front row seats! How brave is that!  :laugh:

VERY brave indeed!!
We will be peering down on you, from the side balcony thingy.

I'm going as well - row F - let's have a forum night out  D)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 19, 2014, 01:04:42 pm
He was great last year when we saw him, but beware he takes no prisoners!  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 20, 2014, 12:44:44 pm
There is some good news though with Conwy now number two for clean streets in Wales – making it the least messy county in the region.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/loom-bands-craze-partly-blame-7801757 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/loom-bands-craze-partly-blame-7801757)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on September 20, 2014, 08:43:54 pm
  Forum night out? Well count me out for one. I don't know if I live on a different planet but I've never even heard of the Guvnor never mind knowing who he is and paying to watch/listen to him
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 20, 2014, 10:34:18 pm
Al Murray, The Pub Landlord, a great show, good to see Fester and Mrs Fester! 😄
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 21, 2014, 12:30:21 am
Al Murray, The Pub Landlord, a great show, good to see Fester and Mrs Fester! 😄

It was a great night Andy,  I never stopped laughing.....  the man is a comic genius.
You and Mrs Merddin got away with murder sitting right in front of him, and not getting picked on!   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 21, 2014, 12:39:00 pm
 L0L unlike you! Remind me again, what is the name of your shop?  :twoface: you thought you would be safe up in the balcony!  L0L
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on September 21, 2014, 07:20:20 pm
 I.m still no wiser. What is the Pub Landlord? A T V show or what
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 21, 2014, 08:23:17 pm
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Murray (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Murray)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on September 21, 2014, 08:25:57 pm
I.m still no wiser. What is the Pub Landlord? A T V show or what

Al Muurray is Pub Landlord whodecided he could earn more as a Comedian than serving pints.
 Z**
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 21, 2014, 11:32:13 pm
Al Murray is actually an Oxford Graduate, a Master of Arts in Modern History.

He used to have bit parts in many fringe comedy shows, however, his characterization of the 'Pub Landlord' is what he is mostly known for,  it has kind of stuck and become his trade mark.
The following from Wiki kind of sums it up.

His character the Pub Landlord is a stereotypical, right-wing British patriot advocating a dislike for anything "un-British".

You cannot help but laugh at his attempts to put the world to rights in a completely politically IN-correct manner.. Almost like a modern day Alf Garnett.
Last night the Stock Market, and that most terrible thing 'career politicians' were in his sights.  Just brilliant.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 22, 2014, 10:16:10 am
He didn't have a lot of material - just a ten minute rants about the stock market.
But he is a very witty and clever man who can rap on stage about almost anything.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: FatAndy on September 23, 2014, 12:34:11 pm
I.m still no wiser. What is the Pub Landlord? A T V show or what

He used to have a TV chat show called Happy Hour on Friday/Saturday nights.  He'd interview three guests (asking the sorts of questions the likes of Parky would never dream of asking) and there'd be a musical guest/group who would be waiting in the toilets until they got called on to perform one of their own songs and then a classic Queen song at the end as well.

This is a clip of John Barrowman on Happy Hour - JB on Al Murray's Happy Hour (March 07) - Part 1/3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnVaH6tz6wA#)

Poundland in Llandudno had one of his live DVDs last week so if you want a cheap introduction try there.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 24, 2014, 12:23:54 pm
I see from a leaflet I got given in Llandudno the other day that RHYL has just opened a brand new purpose built laser quest - 3 games for a tenner is competitively priced as well.

So in the next few weekends we shall be going from Llandudno to Rhyl on a day out.

Llandudno 0.1 Rhyl
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on September 24, 2014, 03:32:43 pm
I see from a leaflet I got given in Llandudno the other day that RHYL has just opened a brand new purpose built laser quest - 3 games for a tenner is competitively priced as well.

So in the next few weekends we shall be going from Llandudno to Rhyl on a day out.

Llandudno 0.1 Rhyl

I appreciate that the title of the thread is tourism in Llandudno but surely we should look at the bigger picture and not just think about keeping people in Llandudno. As a tourist I wouldn't want to spend a whole week in Llandudno but I would choose to stay here above most places along the coast.
As a side, there is also the Paintball place in St George,Abergele. It's excellent and they give you 20% discount with your Conwy card I believe.( Didn't consider looking  until after I shelled out £100+ :o)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on September 24, 2014, 03:35:41 pm
I prefer lasers they don't hurt as much  L0L

The point about the coast is a good one tbf when we go to Cornwall we stay in Perrenporth but go to about 8 or more different towns in the week
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on September 26, 2014, 01:31:36 pm
Out of the tickets issued 954 were for littering, three for dog fouling and 12 were for dog control issues.
A total of 65 per cent of fixed penalty notices issues are paid without further intervention, whilst a percentage of the remaining 35 per cent are listed before the court."
19/09/14 - Less litter on Conwy's streets
Wales is getting cleaner and Conwy continues to see an improvement in cleanliness with a reduction in litter and dog fouling, according to the All Wales Annual LEAMS Report 2013/14 published today by Keep Wales Tidy.

http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=142&doc=35492&Language=1 (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/doc.asp?cat=142&doc=35492&Language=1)

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on September 26, 2014, 09:24:32 pm
I don't believe a WORD of it!

They can come on the pier any day of the week, and count the piles of dog turds.

I can assure you that there has been no discernible reduction in their number, and its DISGUSTING!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on October 08, 2014, 01:39:06 pm
He didn't have a lot of material - just a ten minute rants about the stock market.
But he is a very witty and clever man who can rap on stage about almost anything.

Just wondered into the canteen and saw that empty head Nick Clegg quoting an Al Murray skit about Britain.
Seems like even those in high power hardly realize he's a SPOOF taking the mickey out of chest pumping patriotic idiots not an advocate of them. &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on October 20, 2014, 04:31:03 pm
Going back to littering and I might add, I am very against and pro any measure that stops it, I did wonder if my attitude might change had someone issued me with a fine today. I was parked in town and noticed that the gap between my windscreen and car bonnet was full of leaves and sycamore "helicopters" that the car had collected when parked elsewhere and I couldn't use the washers. I scraped them all off and in to the gutter but suddenly thought to my self  "Am I littering ?". It's autumn and leaves are falling everywhere but you do wonder !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 04:55:05 pm
Going back to littering and I might add, I am very against and pro any measure that stops it, I did wonder if my attitude might change had someone issued me with a fine today. I was parked in town and noticed that the gap between my windscreen and car bonnet was full of leaves and sycamore "helicopters" that the car had collected when parked elsewhere and I couldn't use the washers. I scraped them all off and in to the gutter but suddenly thought to my self  "Am I littering ?". It's autumn and leaves are falling everywhere but you do wonder !

It is getting like that....I find myself counting sugar sachets and rolling them into a ball, when having a drink outside, just in case one blows onto the pavement, I do not want to give them the satisfaction...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Yorkie on October 20, 2014, 04:58:20 pm
As far as leaves are concerned, it wont be long before the Council will be forcing tree owners to collect all fallen leaves, place them in bio- degradable sacks and have them sent to the recycling centre for compost making.

 _))*  _))*  _))*
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on October 20, 2014, 05:02:52 pm
As far as leaves are concerned, it wont be long before the Council will be forcing tree owners to collect all fallen leaves,lace them in bio- degradable sacks and have them sent to the recycling centre for compost making.

 _))*  _))*  _))*
Have they got an app for that..... :D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Cordyline on October 28, 2014, 08:26:23 pm
We are contacting to you with reference to the above booking at our Llandudno Travelodge and very much regret to inform you that the hotel will not be open in time for your visit.

 

Unfortunately there has been a delay in the completion of this hotel and it will not open until 26th January 2015.  We fully appreciate that this will impact on your travel plans.

 

Of course, we wish to assist in relocating your booking to another Travelodge and we have relocated your booking to our Colwyn Bay Travelodge, which is just over 7 miles from Llandudno
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on October 28, 2014, 08:50:29 pm
Hard luck, Cordy  hope you get sorted... ££$     Still do not think it will open in Jan.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Cordyline on October 28, 2014, 10:50:40 pm
No probs Steve; won't be going to CB, asked for refund
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on October 29, 2014, 11:38:29 am
We are contacting to you with reference to the above booking at our Llandudno Travelodge and very much regret to inform you that the hotel will not be open in time for your visit.

 

Unfortunately there has been a delay in the completion of this hotel and it will not open until 26th January 2015.  We fully appreciate that this will impact on your travel plans.

Of course, we wish to assist in relocating your booking to another Travelodge and we have relocated your booking to our Colwyn Bay Travelodge, which is just over 7 miles from Llandudno

Hate to say this, but I posted this weeks ago. Steve H............I agree with you there, it still has a long way to go.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on October 29, 2014, 05:04:20 pm
Nem,  we did ''told you so'' ....... same with The Waverley, ... and several other things. but I wish I had been wrong!

There is a lot to look forward to in 2015.   $good$ $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: snowcap on October 29, 2014, 08:54:53 pm
Like 2016
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Cordyline on October 29, 2014, 09:36:16 pm
They don't want to make a refund - be warned

Your booking is not cancelled, it is just being relocated to another hotel 5 miles further along the road.  The room rates you have secured are co competitive that I would doubt you would be able to match them anywhere else for that time of the year.

Before we cancel for definite, I wonder if you might reconsider, as I can only refund these rooms in the form of an e voucher.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 29, 2014, 11:01:34 pm
I would have thought that they have broken the contract by being unable to supply that which you have ordered? You have rejected the alternative which was offered so they must refund your money, not as an e voucher either!  But I am no legal expert! You could contact trading standards for advice! Good luck!  ££$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on October 30, 2014, 07:06:50 am
Quote
as I can only refund these rooms in the form of an e voucher.

ME's correct.  They are obliged to refund the cost, as they are unable to perform their part of the contract. The only way they could get out of the refund is if you had agreed to a clause which stated that your original booking was for a location and not a specific hotel and that they were able to move your booking at their discretion.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on October 30, 2014, 09:19:51 am
We could all see it wasn't going to be ready, maybe by March so they should not have taken bookings ,would they pay for a taxi to Llandudno /colwyn bay  No they are at fault demand your refund .
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on October 30, 2014, 09:22:54 am
What a way to begin trading here. :-X
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on October 30, 2014, 03:08:12 pm
Taken this afternoon. The Clarence
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: hollins on October 30, 2014, 03:45:48 pm
Cordyline, So very sorry to hear about your disappointment especially after the Waverley incident. You are due a bit of good luck.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on October 30, 2014, 04:31:44 pm
Travelodge T&C

8.Relocation

1.Travelodge operates a relocation policy (for more details on (relocation policy click here). If a room is unavailable on arrival (except due to an event beyond our reasonable control, (see section 10.2)) then, we will either:
provide a room in another Travelodge hotel and pay the reasonable cost of transport to that alternative hotel or any applicable car park; OR
provide a room in a third party hotel and pay the reasonable cost of transport to that alternative hotel or any applicable car park; OR
at your request, cancel your Booking and refund you any money you have paid in advance for the unavailable room(s) including related extras.
If you are due to pay on arrival at the hotel we will take payment for the cost of the booking and any prepaid extras. As outlined above any additional costs over and above the original cost of the booking will be covered by Travelodge. I.e. difference in room rates, reasonable transport costs, car park charges.

Section 10.2

Events Beyond our Reasonable Control: We shall not be in breach of these terms, nor liable for any failure to perform any of our obligations in relation to your Booking (such as the provision of room(s) and/or other products and/or services and/or extras) due to any adverse event, act, omission or accident which happens which is beyond our reasonable control including, but not limited to, flood, earthquake, extreme adverse weather conditions, natural disasters, other acts of God, acts of terrorism, interruption or fire (except by way of our default) or failure of (except by way of our default) electric power, gas, water, or other utility service, plant machinery, computers, vehicles or any collapse of building structures
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on October 31, 2014, 08:38:28 am
Nem,  we did ''told you so'' ....... same with The Waverley, ... and several other things. but I wish I had been wrong!

There is a lot to look forward to in 2015.   $good$ $good$

I hope we have Fester 'cos the way things are at the moment nothing seems either settled or finished.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on October 31, 2014, 08:55:28 am
Nem,  we did ''told you so'' ....... same with The Waverley, ... and several other things. but I wish I had been wrong!
If only your predictive talents could be extended to the stock market with the same degree of accuracy...  :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Cordyline on October 31, 2014, 09:36:44 am
Quote
Cordyline, So very sorry to hear about your disappointment especially after the Waverley incident. You are due a bit of good luck

Quite right too Hollins !! Just bought a lottery ticket for tonight's draw

The Waverley saga was a good excuse to visit Llandudno

Looking at the small lifeboats on there; had there been a disaster....... with my luck.....

Travelodge have finally  agreed to refund my money
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on October 31, 2014, 10:01:10 am
Glad you got refunded!  $good$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on October 31, 2014, 10:49:07 am
Nem,  we did ''told you so'' ....... same with The Waverley, ... and several other things. but I wish I had been wrong!

There is a lot to look forward to in 2015.   $good$ $good$

I hope we have Fester

I phrase nobody in their right mind has ever uttered  ;D
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on March 03, 2015, 12:19:00 pm
Today, at precisely 0945, a black car facing the 'wrong' way outside Holy Trinity on Mostyn street parked bumper to bumper with a 4 x 4 which was parked in the single legitimate space, just past the rarely-used gateway. This is on double yellow lines, and on the bend, so it was surprising anyone would park in such a tricky position.  The man inside the car opened his door, jumped out and ran across the road towards Lloyds.

As we passed his car it became obvious why he'd parked in such a strange spot.  On the dashboard was a disabled pass. What struck us both was way he ran across the road.

He clearly wasn't disabled, by any normal definition, yet he was using the pass to park in a potentially dangerous location and, it could probably be argued, denying a genuinely disabled person the opportunity to park there.   
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2015, 09:09:43 am
Tourism in Wales bucks the downward trend to hit record-breaking 10 million visitors
16:48, 12 May 2015 By Cathy Owen
The figures are the best since the Great British Tourism Survey was set up in 2006


Tourism in Wales hit a new high last year as new figures have revealed a record breaking year with more than 10 million visitors.

The Welsh Government figures are the best since the Great Britain Tourism Survey was set up in its present form in 2006.

With beauty like this, it is now wonder tourists love Wales:

Even better when compared against Great Britain as a whole which suffered a downfall.

The number of trips to Wales in 2014 is up 0.7 per cent on 2013, itself an excellent year.

In comparison, the total for Great Britain as a whole fell by 7.0 per cent.

The amount spent by British visitors in Wales is also the highest on record at £1.735 billion.

This shows an increase of 2.3 per cent while the total expenditure on overnight trips in Britain as a whole fell by 2.6 per cent compared with 2013.

Holiday visits – the mainstay of tourism in Wales - have shown even more impressive increases over 2013.

They are up 4.4 per cent in terms of trips, and up 7.7 per cent on related expenditure.

Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Ken Skates, said: “These figures are absolutely fantastic and show that Wales is ahead of the game, getting to 10 million visitors is an important milestone and Wales is gaining market share.

“This success is due to the incredibly hard working industry we have here in Wales who make sure that our visitors have an outstanding experience and want to return time and again. It also shows that the Welsh Government strategy and activity is enabling the industry to grow and prosper.

“We saw that confidence among the industry was high after a successful Easter. I hope that these figures give the industry further confidence and that we can build on this success. The down-turn for Great Britain as a whole shows the extremely competitive nature of the tourism industry, and we will work with the industry to sustain these excellent figures for Wales.”

Justin Baird Murray, Chair of British Hospitality Association Cymru which represents the hotel and restaurant industry in Wales, said: “These figures from the Great Britain Tourism Survey are very encouraging, reflect the confidence hoteliers have in their own product and promise to give us a strong base from which to continue to grow quality tourism in Wales.

“We are on course to meet our ambitious target of 20,000 new jobs in our sector between 2011 and 2020 and will have our own supportive interim statistics to demonstrate our vital importance as an employer to communities across Wales in the next few months.

“We have an outstanding tourism product to promote and, by working together, and with continued support from strong marketing campaigning by Visit Wales, we are confident we can outperform any of our competitors within the UK.”

Overseas visitor figures for Wales are also positive with the International Passenger Survey figures for the first nine months of 2014 showing that Wales had an increase of 14% in the volume of visitors (795,000) compared with the same period in 2013. Expenditure figures were 6% up (to £303 million).

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourism-wales-bucks-downward-trend-9242950 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourism-wales-bucks-downward-trend-9242950)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on May 13, 2015, 02:03:38 pm
Today, at precisely 0945, a black car facing the 'wrong' way outside Holy Trinity on Mostyn street parked bumper to bumper with a 4 x 4 which was parked in the single legitimate space, just past the rarely-used gateway. This is on double yellow lines, and on the bend, so it was surprising anyone would park in such a tricky position.  The man inside the car opened his door, jumped out and ran across the road towards Lloyds.

As we passed his car it became obvious why he'd parked in such a strange spot.  On the dashboard was a disabled pass. What struck us both was way he ran across the road.

He clearly wasn't disabled, by any normal definition, yet he was using the pass to park in a potentially dangerous location and, it could probably be argued, denying a genuinely disabled person the opportunity to park there.

He could have been registered blind. Did you think of that?  $good$

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/blue-badge-scheme (http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/blue-badge-scheme)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SDQ on May 13, 2015, 02:47:55 pm
Today, at precisely 0945, a black car facing the 'wrong' way outside Holy Trinity on Mostyn street parked bumper to bumper with a 4 x 4 which was parked in the single legitimate space, just past the rarely-used gateway. This is on double yellow lines, and on the bend, so it was surprising anyone would park in such a tricky position.  The man inside the car opened his door, jumped out and ran across the road towards Lloyds.

As we passed his car it became obvious why he'd parked in such a strange spot.  On the dashboard was a disabled pass. What struck us both was way he ran across the road.

He clearly wasn't disabled, by any normal definition, yet he was using the pass to park in a potentially dangerous location and, it could probably be argued, denying a genuinely disabled person the opportunity to park there.

He could have been registered blind. Did you think of that?  $good$

http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/blue-badge-scheme (http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/blue-badge-scheme)


Registered blind & driving a motor vehicle???
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: suepp on May 13, 2015, 03:00:06 pm
Blue Badges are available to people with disabilities regardless of their ability to walk or run.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on May 13, 2015, 03:38:01 pm
That's true, but the purpose of a disability badge is to allow easy access to shops and their ilk for people who might have difficulty sustaining the physical effort of reaching them otherwise. Those who possess the physical attributes necessary both to run and to see where they're running to are, IMV, abusing the facility. There are detailed criteria for gaining a blue badg (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wales/consumer/cars-and-other-vehicles/driving-and-parking/driving-and-parking-for-disabled-people/the-blue-badge-scheme/who-is-eligible-for-a-blue-badge-w/)e and from the way he sprinted I doubt he would fulfil any.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: suepp on May 13, 2015, 10:08:16 pm
They can also be used by a passenger, if he was alone in the car and not the person named  on the badge he could get prosecuted, so quite risky given the zealousness of traffic wardens in Llandudno.     
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: spotty dog on June 02, 2015, 09:54:00 pm
Stuck behind CCBC recycle truck today in local village ,they dropped cans and kicked them down the road. Paper and cardboard that fell out of the boxes blew all over the road not one of the operatives made any attempt to tidy up .No litter police to be seen will video it next time
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on June 03, 2015, 12:44:26 pm
Stuck behind CCBC recycle truck today in local village ,they dropped cans and kicked them down the road. Paper and cardboard that fell out of the boxes blew all over the road not one of the operatives made any attempt to tidy up .No litter police to be seen will video it next time

This is the scene on my street every time they come.
The grass verge is strewn with glass and plastic,  paper and cardboard is everywhere.
They step over it and ignore it.
This policy needs serious reconsideration.  &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bosun on June 03, 2015, 02:01:09 pm
The policy is fine, the implementation is not. The operatives require supervision, oversight and management, that isn't happening. Pass the details of the location of concern to your councillor and the situation should change; I did and there was a huge improvement.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 07, 2015, 11:01:11 am
This is good to see, but it cost £8,0000! I still say better to have these wardens picking it up!                 

"6 July 2015 at 3:31pm
Man slapped with £75 fine for accidentally dropping tiny piece of orange peel wins fight with council"

http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-07-06/man-slapped-with-75-fine-for-accidentally-dropping-tiny-piece-of-orange-peel-wins-fight-with-council/ (http://www.itv.com/news/london/2015-07-06/man-slapped-with-75-fine-for-accidentally-dropping-tiny-piece-of-orange-peel-wins-fight-with-council/)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on July 27, 2015, 07:00:44 pm
Today, at precisely 0945, a black car facing the 'wrong' way outside Holy Trinity on Mostyn street parked bumper to bumper with a 4 x 4 which was parked in the single legitimate space, just past the rarely-used gateway. This is on double yellow lines, and on the bend, so it was surprising anyone would park in such a tricky position.  The man inside the car opened his door, jumped out and ran across the road towards Lloyds.

As we passed his car it became obvious why he'd parked in such a strange spot.  On the dashboard was a disabled pass. What struck us both was way he ran across the road.

He clearly wasn't disabled, by any normal definition, yet he was using the pass to park in a potentially dangerous location and, it could probably be argued, denying a genuinely disabled person the opportunity to park there.

We called in at Tesco's today, and I noticed the misuse of mother and pram parking bays, they had older children with them, but not in prams etc so the extra space was unused, not as bad as nicking disabled parking but annoying........Mrs H found this on Facebook when we came in.....good timing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7fWYxRq34g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7fWYxRq34g)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 27, 2015, 07:37:56 pm
That is brilliant!  L0L  L0L  L0L he must have been parked there for ages,
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 05, 2015, 01:20:25 pm
Welsh councils make £9m on car parking charges in one year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33777710 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33777710)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2015, 02:56:31 pm
Welsh councils make £9m on car parking charges in one year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33777710 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33777710)

It's worse in Cornwall. Try parking in St ives. Although we never pay to park in Llandudno, Conwy or the Bay. I suppose local knowledge comes in handy.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 25, 2016, 12:41:30 am
Not exactly Llandudno but...
It would seem that the council coffers in Snowdonia will be overflowing after they hit the jackpot yesterday.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on April 25, 2016, 07:53:32 am
Fester, was that just past Pen Y Gwryd on the way to Beddgelert?        They have parking meters either side of the hotel but it wasn't always like that and really it's only parking on grass.
At the car park in Pen Y Pass its £10.00 to park there all day!
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on April 25, 2016, 01:21:47 pm
Fester, was that just past Pen Y Gwryd on the way to Beddgelert?        They have parking meters either side of the hotel but it wasn't always like that and really it's only parking on grass.
At the car park in Pen Y Pass its £10.00 to park there all day!
Ten quid to PARK your car??   That's about how much it costs to drive it to Manchester,  truly disgusting.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on April 25, 2016, 02:37:35 pm
That's about the going rate in Cornwall. Perhaps the council are copying them $$$$ &shake&
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on April 25, 2016, 03:18:06 pm
Fester, was that just past Pen Y Gwryd on the way to Beddgelert?        They have parking meters either side of the hotel but it wasn't always like that and really it's only parking on grass.
At the car park in Pen Y Pass its £10.00 to park there all day!
Ten quid to PARK your car??   That's about how much it costs to drive it to Manchester,  truly disgusting.

People use it as a car park for walking up Snowdon so if you can walk up there and back in under 5 hours then they only charge you £5.00.    &shake&
What a racket.        We park for free in Llanberis and catch the bus with our OAP bus passes and that way it doesn't cost us anything to do the walk up Snowdon
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on April 26, 2016, 01:22:06 pm
Here's what you say about THAT Snowdonia parking ticket photo
There was a clear split between readers over whether motorists visiting Snowdonia should have been fined or not.

A photo showing cars lined with penalty notices in Snowdonia sparked debate on social media.
Some people argued it was a way to "stop tourism fast" and others said "parking there increases the chance for a accident."
Chris Parry, who took the photo, said: "It doesn’t give a good image of the area at all."
The results from the Daily Post poll reveal 51% think the cars should have been ticketed, whilst 49% think they shouldn't have been.
Comments    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/heres-what-you-say-snowdonia-11242507 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/heres-what-you-say-snowdonia-11242507)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 26, 2016, 08:10:17 pm
If the narrow minded idiots who control our National Park were made to provide adequate parking to meet the needs of the general public who want to come and experience that wonderful asset, there wouldn't be a problem
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bosun on April 26, 2016, 08:21:39 pm
The fact of the matter is that the deliberate lack of parking and high parking prices is one way that the National Park control try to control the number of visitors to the Park to avoid overuse and degradation of the Park.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 26, 2016, 08:31:32 pm
The fact of the matter is that the deliberate lack of parking and high parking prices is one way that the National Park control try to control the number of visitors to the Park to avoid overuse and degradation of the Park.

That would be quite acceptable if the money used to finance the Park didn't come from the people they are trying to prevent from using it.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bosun on April 26, 2016, 09:59:09 pm
The fact of the matter is that the deliberate lack of parking and high parking prices is one way that the National Park control try to control the number of visitors to the Park to avoid overuse and degradation of the Park.

That would be quite acceptable if the money used to finance the Park didn't come from the people they are trying to prevent from using it.

I totally agree, but the management of natural resources in allowing it to be used today and preserved for the future is a delicate balancing act. It's an extremely difficult call, and any decisions are bound to upset or to be disagreed with by some.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on April 27, 2016, 09:51:09 am
I totally agree, but the management of natural resources in allowing it to be used today and preserved for the future is a delicate balancing act. It's an extremely difficult call, and any decisions are bound to upset or to be disagreed with by some.
That's it. We can't just let everyone park where they want, otherwise chaos would ensue and the very thing that attracts people to Snowdonia would be destroyed. The Snowdon Sherpa bus service is a good way of getting around the area without a car but perhaps requires a little more effort than a lot of visitors are prepared to make.

http://www.visitsnowdonia.info/snowdon_paths_and_sherpa_bus_service-98.aspx (http://www.visitsnowdonia.info/snowdon_paths_and_sherpa_bus_service-98.aspx)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on April 27, 2016, 10:19:02 am
The Sherpa was a good idea at the outset, but it needs to be replaced by an all-electric vehicle. Particularly in the route it follows the vehicle could use its batteries for the ascents and recharge during the descents.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 27, 2016, 01:24:15 pm
The Snowdon Sherpa bus service is a good way of getting around the area without a car but perhaps requires a little more effort than a lot of visitors are prepared to make.


Then provide large car parks for the visitors who you want to use the Sherpa buses to leave their cars in. You try getting to Llanberis by public transport, then you might just have some sympathy with the visitors who come from all over to enjoy the National Park which is funded by their taxes.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on April 27, 2016, 03:50:26 pm
The Snowdon Sherpa bus service is a good way of getting around the area without a car but perhaps requires a little more effort than a lot of visitors are prepared to make.


Then provide large car parks for the visitors who you want to use the Sherpa buses to leave their cars in. You try getting to Llanberis by public transport, then you might just have some sympathy with the visitors who come from all over to enjoy the National Park which is funded by their taxes.

I've travelled by bus from Llandudno to Llanberis via Caernarfon a couple of years ago - wasnt difficult really? Have you made the trip by bus?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 28, 2016, 07:26:25 pm

I've travelled by bus from Llandudno to Llanberis via Caernarfon a couple of years ago - wasnt difficult really? Have you made the trip by bus?

Yes Dave I have and do use the Bus service, on a very regular basis. Your right of course, it isn't difficult, except if you expect the present bus service to cater for the needs of the thousands of daily visitors to Snowdonia. 1½ hours for the ride to Caernarfon followed by an 1 hour trip to Llamberis, never mind the waiting time between Buses in Bangor and Caernarfon, then the same for the return journey, that's a lot of time to waist out of your day out, when a direct return car journey will take less than 1½ hours. Very idealistic reasoning but the infrastructure just isn't there to support your argument.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on April 28, 2016, 08:57:40 pm
Blongb - do you think you might be exaggerating a trifle. 1 and a half hours Bangor to Caernarfon? What did you do in Bangor, visit to a cafe? An hour Caernarfon to llanberis. I must admit I've never done it by bus but really there must be some mistake here. Don't say there was a traffic accident or something, because that would have held up cars as well. Or is there confusion between single and return journeys?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: DaveR on April 29, 2016, 09:45:26 am
I couldn't remember how long it took me to do the journey, so I tried the planner at Traveline Cymru. It suggested I go on the X1 down to Betws Y Coed, then catch the S2 Sherpa to Llanberis, a total journey time (including waiting) of 1hr42m.

I do agree that a lot more could be done to provide a more attractive bus service around Snowdonia, in order to tempt people out of their cars.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on April 29, 2016, 10:14:24 am
Although this debate is destined to run and run some facts are inescapable. Using any form of public transport in the UK is normally much more inconvenient than using your car.  Part of this is down to the fact that public transport, despite its name, is largely in private ownership. In the places around the world where public transport works well it's almost always electrically powered, runs vehicles very frequently and adheres to a strict timetable. Private companies generally want the most for the least expenditure, and until forced to do so won't invest in new technology such as electric power units.  An excellent example of this is the Conwy valley train service. While the enthusiast-run Ffestiniog operators are proclaiming their investment in observation coaches, which would be the perfect fit for the Conwy Valley line, Arriva are making no attempts to change and thus squandering a huge opportunity.

I've long held that a circular monorail loop, going through Llanberis, Caernarfon, Bangor and Llandudno with electrically powered vehicles running every 30 minutes would make a lot of money, although the initial investment would be very high. The national park would find it difficult to refuse permission for a clean form of transport whose footprint would be far smaller than a train line and which would effectively offer car users a sensible and efficient alternative to driving. Strategically placed car parks could be developed at station sites around the loop and complemented by a levy imposed on those who insisted on driving.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 29, 2016, 03:23:53 pm
Blongb - do you think you might be exaggerating a trifle. 1 and a half hours Bangor to Caernarfon? What did you do in Bangor, visit to a cafe? An hour Caernarfon to llanberis. I must admit I've never done it by bus but really there must be some mistake here. Don't say there was a traffic accident or something, because that would have held up cars as well. Or is there confusion between single and return journeys?

You missed the point Mike, the journey was started from Llandudno not Bangor and that does take 1½hrs one way, on a good day.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Blongb on April 29, 2016, 04:06:29 pm
And for Ian;  my OH and I were sitting in that very carriage just 2 weeks ago. The X1 from Llandudno to Blaenau Ffestiniog. Then the Train 1st class down to Porthmadog, a quick lunch in Jenny's. After the pit stop we used the S97 Sherpa Bus through Beddgelert and on to Pen-y-pass. There was a 50 minute wait for the S2 to take us down to Betws y Coed and as we pulled into the bus stop the X1 we were hopping to catch pulled out without us. Fortunately we were able to catch the 15:36 Conwy Valley Line Train back up to Llandudno instead.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Michael on April 30, 2016, 10:18:04 pm
Hello again Blongb, I didn't miss the point. I just made a mistake in incorrectly quoting you "Bangor to Caernarfon." I should of course typed "Llandudno to Caernarfon." Sorry about that obvious mistake. But I stand by what I wrote, no missed points
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: SteveH on August 16, 2016, 11:33:58 am
Calls grow to protect tourism amid shrinking budgets.

Senior figures in the tourism industry have said north Wales needs to improve the basics it offers visitors if it wants them to return.
They have claimed dirty streets, poor amenities and local authority spending cuts could affect business.
Hoteliers and industry representatives insist facilities should not suffer even if "money is tight".
But local councils in region say they are doing their best with limited budgets.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2016, 11:40:40 am
Calls grow to protect tourism amid shrinking budgets.

Senior figures in the tourism industry have said north Wales needs to improve the basics it offers visitors if it wants them to return.
They have claimed dirty streets, poor amenities and local authority spending cuts could affect business.
Hoteliers and industry representatives insist facilities should not suffer even if "money is tight".
But local councils in region say they are doing their best with limited budgets.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440)

That's strange Steve?
Whenever I point out that spending is tight and tourism isn't as buoyant as it was, the Tourist people tend to issue articles that prove me wrong.
Is a bit or realism starting to creep in?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 16, 2016, 01:14:49 pm
It was heaving today - the town and the Orme, anyway. But decent toilets are essential.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: born2run on August 16, 2016, 02:02:50 pm
Calls grow to protect tourism amid shrinking budgets.

Senior figures in the tourism industry have said north Wales needs to improve the basics it offers visitors if it wants them to return.
They have claimed dirty streets, poor amenities and local authority spending cuts could affect business.
Hoteliers and industry representatives insist facilities should not suffer even if "money is tight".
But local councils in region say they are doing their best with limited budgets.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-37087440)

That's strange Steve?
Whenever I point out that spending is tight and tourism isn't as buoyant as it was, the Tourist people tend to issue articles that prove me wrong.

Is a bit or realism starting to creep in?

"Dirty streets" Only one thing for out the litter gestapo need to INCREASE their fines  :twoface: :twoface:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 16, 2016, 02:04:39 pm
I agree with the need for more public toilets.

Also, yesterday, the weather was glorious well into the evening and I could not help notice that the deck chairs had to be returned by 4.30pm.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Dave on August 16, 2016, 02:32:17 pm
I did the touristy thing as I had visitors staying with us two weeks ago. Everywhere we went was busy and I was surprised just how many people there were on holiday in North Wales. I'm told it's difficult to get a room in Llandudno at the weekends if you haven't booked in advance.
Whenever I am in town all the cafes seem to be full of customers and judging by the numbers open they must be doing well. I hear Macdonalds want to open 24/7 now.
It seems to me that if you offer what the customers want then you can't go too far wrong. Money might be tight, and it's likely to get tighter but as a consequence there will be more people staying in the UK for their holidays and more foreigners pouring in to take advantage of the exchange rates.
The majority do of course do want to see a litter free, clean environment and the availability of a decent loo is always a necessity. Both the council and private business can do their bit . Shops and businesses could brush their pavement areas every morning, it would be nice to see some hanging baskets too. However, the overriding thing that will bring tourists back is value for money, appropriate entertainment and the availability of parking space. The latter I believe is critical and that's where the council need to concentrate their efforts and that doesn't mean employing more traffic wardens ( or whatever they call themselves nowadays). Low cost and plentiful parking is doable, even if it involves park and ride.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on August 16, 2016, 03:35:30 pm
A couple of points about parking in the town.:

Since charges began on the prom all the people who work in the town park on the residential streets, thus filling them up before the tourists arrive.

Since Travelodge opened it's doors 82 rooms worth of people arrive to find no designated car park.

No wonder parking is as it is !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 16, 2016, 04:49:35 pm
Quote
Dave..."Shops and businesses could brush their pavement areas every morning,"

I agree with what you say, and in particular shops cleaning their area, before and during and after business, I think this would greatly improve the town.                    Maybe it should be made compulsory.

Since charges began on the prom all the people who work in the town park on the residential streets, thus filling them up before the tourists arrive.
Since Travelodge opened it's doors 82 rooms worth of people arrive to find no designated car park.
No wonder parking is as it is !

And we have yet to come, the new Pay and Display arriving on Gloddaeth St and Westshore .

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on October 01, 2016, 12:06:32 pm
It's not a local matter but I thought that I'd share this article that I read today in the Daily Mirror.    It came under the heading of " Quackers fine for feeding ducks in river"
An over zealous litter warden gave a woman an £80.00 on the spot penalty when she threw breadcrumbs into the River  Loose in Maidstone for the Ducks.
The Maidstone Council have now suspended a team of 10 litter wardens from the Kingdom Security  firm and the contract is now being reviewed.
Isn't that the same firm that CCBC uses for the Conwy County area?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on October 01, 2016, 12:17:58 pm
Yes they are everywhere, here's an article I bookmarked last year............

Litter firm compared to the Stasi makes £2million profit as it issues 116 fines a DAY - including people who gave bread to ducks
Officials for Kingdom Security has issued 42,529 fines for 16 councils
New figures lead to fears officers get bonuses for handing out penalties
One litter warden forced smoker off a bus for dropping butt on pavement
Warden then used character Judge Dredd's catchphrase: 'I am the law'

Sorry it's from the DFM............. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375071/Litter-firm-compared-Stasi-makes-2million-profit-issues-116-fines-DAY-including-people-gave-bread-ducks.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3375071/Litter-firm-compared-Stasi-makes-2million-profit-issues-116-fines-DAY-including-people-gave-bread-ducks.html)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on October 01, 2016, 12:22:55 pm
Steve, I'm shocked as I thought that Ian was the only one who reads the DFM             :o
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on October 01, 2016, 01:17:33 pm
 :D

Justice will be swift, Hugo... WWW WWW
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and N. WALES
Post by: SteveH on February 22, 2017, 01:26:16 pm
This looks nasty, I had heard that the new Rateable values could be a good thing for Llandudno as they were paying to much, but this is going to cause problems....

Hotels set to suffer, “This will impact on Llandudno but it is also a big issue in rural areas where hotels are often at the centre of the local economy.
This has seen some key hotels in the region hit with dramatic hikes in their rateable values, which in turn leads to rises in business rates paid.

The Imperial Hotel in Llandudno faces an annual increase from £237,000 to £302,000, while the St George’s Hotel in the town is being hit with an increase of £50,000.

Full article...
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/caernarfons-black-boy-pub-boss-12637280 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/caernarfons-black-boy-pub-boss-12637280)

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: norman08 on February 22, 2017, 04:01:52 pm
Take a look how many hotels guest houses are on the market now ,can see even more soon with these big rises.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: mull on August 09, 2017, 09:33:44 am
Sunday 16 July 2017.

Arrived hotel at West Shore after a 300 mile drive at 1800hours.
!830 we set off to walk into town for something to eat . Lovely evening and Llandudno looking good.
Passed the Tram Station and arrived at the Kings Head, Always been good in passed visits.
Found a table outside and went in to get a menu at 1857. Young man inside advised me I would have to be quick as kitchen closing at 1900 . He was not sure what was left to eat.
Decided to move on.
Could not believe they had refused to serve food so early in the evening, for heavens sake it is the middle of July !
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 09, 2017, 10:50:35 am
Mull,
That's a massive problem in Llandudno and many, many other towns.
Unless you want a kebab, then have to order by 8.30 at the latest, everywhere.

That's why I spend more and more time in Spain, where we can basically order whatever we want at any time of the day or night. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 15, 2017, 11:05:15 am
Fined for a dog off the lead: "I was frightened not to pay it"
Heather was fined £75 for walking her dog off the lead on Llandudno beach 9/8/17.

Another Kingdom security mess, guilty or not, she was frightened by the wardens, and will not be returning to Llandudno, and to make matters worse, she was interviewed on BBC Radio Wales.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05by7yq (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05by7yq)
 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 15, 2017, 11:47:19 am
I noticed on the beach now they have these massive wind sail looking things everywhere with a picture of a dog crossed out.
They look very tacky in my opinion. Would be a lot easier if they'd get rid of Himmler Security and employ a beach warden who could patrol the beach and advise people they shouldn't let their dogs on there. If they still refuse after being warned that's when you fine them. Surely for the sake of 25k a year that can't be too difficult? There is enough traffic wardens in town surely the beach deserves one - he could even commute between both beaches. If they can pay a "sickness lord" 80k a year they can afford a beach warden $walesflag$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on August 15, 2017, 01:14:22 pm
Do we not still have a promenade inspector? At one time he used to set off at a rare pace chasing people who took a dog on to the beach.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 15, 2017, 01:23:08 pm
Do we not still have a promenade inspector? At one time he used to set off at a rare pace chasing people who took a dog on to the beach.

Nem, I have seen inspector's on both prom's recently,  (the Westshore chap uses a quad bike)
not sure what their duties are though.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on August 15, 2017, 01:30:23 pm
To be fair, I witnessed the 'inspector' chase after a couple of visitors on Sunday afternoon and insist they return to pick up their dog poo off the steps leading down to the beach near the slipway.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 15, 2017, 01:40:21 pm
Begs the question if there are people being paid - and presumably well to do this job on the promenade and beaches. Why don't they ban Klansman Security from those areas and only allow them to operate in the town centre to catch litter droppers?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 15, 2017, 02:05:34 pm
The Westshore situation explained.

WARDENS will be permanently stationed on the beach this summer after several rescues from sandbanks.
 The wardens – to be known as seaboard inspectors – will be on Llandudno’s West Shore Saturday, May 5 until mid-September.

 Conwy Harbour Master Matthew Forbes said that the seaboard inspectors will be stationed at West Shore during low water – when the sandbank becomes isolated from the beach.
 He said: “They work a rota to ensure the beach is manned seven days a week, from 9am to 8pm. Their shifts are arranged around the times of low water, in order to ensure coverage when the ‘North Deep’ channel fills with water.
“The inspectors are equipped with a quad bike, which allows them to effectively patrol the beach and warn members of the public if they have moved too far out on the sands.
 “They also have binoculars and hand-held radios.”
REF DP May 2013
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 15, 2017, 02:43:14 pm
To be fair, I witnessed the 'inspector' chase after a couple of visitors on Sunday afternoon and insist they return to pick up their dog poo off the steps leading down to the beach near the slipway.

I hope he had better luck than me when I used to remonstrate with people on the pier about dog poo. Ended up in fisticuffs more than once. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 15, 2017, 03:54:49 pm
...which is probably why they now employ Kingdom Security...
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 15, 2017, 04:56:55 pm
...which is probably why they now employ Kingdom Security...

Kingdom Security are banned from the pier, with it being private property... but prior to the ban they did spend a lot of time on there terrorising people.

I used to bait them, by pretending to throw litter into the sea behind my kiosk, but actually put it in my pocket.  They were like meerkats, trying to get a glimpse of what I was up to.

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on August 15, 2017, 06:37:07 pm
Do we not still have a promenade inspector? At one time he used to set off at a rare pace chasing people who took a dog on to the beach.

Nem, I have seen inspector's on both prom's recently,  (the Westshore chap uses a quad bike)
not sure what their duties are though.

Sitting in a hut? $donald$
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 16, 2017, 12:07:01 am
Do we not still have a promenade inspector? At one time he used to set off at a rare pace chasing people who took a dog on to the beach.

Nem, I have seen inspector's on both prom's recently,  (the Westshore chap uses a quad bike)
not sure what their duties are though.

Sitting in a hut? $donald$

Doesn't make him a bad person, I made a career out of it!   :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on August 16, 2017, 10:39:55 am
Do we not still have a promenade inspector? At one time he used to set off at a rare pace chasing people who took a dog on to the beach.

Nem, I have seen inspector's on both prom's recently,  (the Westshore chap uses a quad bike)
not sure what their duties are though.

Sitting in a hut? $donald$

Doesn't make him a bad person, I made a career out of it!   :laugh: :laugh:

Pizza hut?  :P
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Hugo on August 17, 2017, 08:08:14 am
It's not just Llandudno but it's happening all over N Wales too, but does Kingdom Securities tackle anyone other than soft targets?


http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-security-fine-travellers-who-13483056 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/kingdom-security-fine-travellers-who-13483056)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 18, 2017, 06:18:50 pm
Not knowing the full details, this punishment still seems extreme.......

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/home/2017/08/18/gallery/hawaiian-tourist-lands-huge-fine-after-brandishing-sword-on-llandudno-s-great-orme-93100/ (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/home/2017/08/18/gallery/hawaiian-tourist-lands-huge-fine-after-brandishing-sword-on-llandudno-s-great-orme-93100/)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 18, 2017, 07:09:09 pm
It's interesting.  It's legal under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139) and Offensive Weapons Act 1996 (section 3 and 4) for people to carry a sword for religious, cultural or work related (filming, drama) reasons. The cultural defence might well have worked. The big question for me, however, is where did he buy it?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on August 18, 2017, 08:06:20 pm
That was my thought, unless it was a toy sword from Billy Lals I can't think of anywhere that would sell such a thing except perhaps the shop opposite Bog Island which sells Eastern type souvenirs such as waving cats and lucky turtles ! :roll:
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Fester on August 18, 2017, 09:48:08 pm
Doesn't that Armoury shop in Conwy sell genuine swords?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on August 19, 2017, 08:18:43 am
The Knight Shop? Yes - of course.  And they have an outlet in Mochdre. They sell reproductions but they could still do a bit of damage. 
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on April 11, 2018, 12:40:28 pm
This gentleman may be trying it on, but this "coach park" system is flawed.

Tourist trip organiser's boycott of town after toilet visit costs him £50
Steve Brown said he paid to park at Mostyn Broadway car park while dropping off passengers, but trip to toilet cost him dear.

A coach driver says he plans to stop bringing tourists to Llandudno after he paid £6.50 to drop off passengers and endep being fined £50 when he went for a toilet break.

Steve Brown dropped off a bus full of Thai holidaymakers at the Mostyn Broadway coach stop. He then went to the only ticket machine he could find and paid to stay for several hours.

Twenty minutes later he returned to his vehicle to find a fine notice on the windscreen, telling him he had parked his vehicle in a spot for a purpose other than its designated use.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourist-trip-organisers-boycott-town-14517544 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourist-trip-organisers-boycott-town-14517544)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: born2run on April 11, 2018, 02:26:38 pm
If it's just to drop off why do you need to buy a ticket in the first place?
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and North Wales
Post by: SteveH on July 26, 2019, 05:19:16 pm
A55 joins M6, M5, M4 and M3 on the full list of UK roads to avoid this summer

The A55 has joined some of the busiest roads in the UK as those to avoid this summer, according to motoring experts.

A list of roads where lengthy delays are expected this summer, the North Wales Expressway to be among the worst in Britain.

Lengthy delays on the main route through North Wales are predicted as holiday makers travel to take advantage of the sun.

More......   https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/a55-joins-m6-m5-m4-16650148 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/a55-joins-m6-m5-m4-16650148)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on January 26, 2020, 12:21:29 pm
A recent FB photo of one of the Queen of resorts Promenade waste bins..........   :-[    :-[
Title: Re: Tourism and the coronavirus economic impact in North Wales
Post by: SteveH on April 25, 2020, 10:41:35 am
Eight communities in North Wales set to be worst hit by coronavirus economic shock waves
Two reports lay bare the economic impact coronavirus is already having on our towns and villages.

Two reports have laid bare the communities in North Wales that look set to be impacted the hardest by the economic fallout from the coronavirus pandemic.

Lockdown measures to control the spread of Covid-19 are set to have a major impact across Wales and the rest of the UK.

But certain towns look set to receive the greatest economic hardship and two reports have this week placed eight communities in North Wales among those at greatest risk.

With tourism and hospitality two of the worst hit sectors it is no surprise to find that among the communities under most threat are seaside towns.                           cont   Two reports have laid bare the communities in North Wales that look set to be impacted the hardest by the economic fallout from the coronavirus pandemic.

Lockdown measures to control the spread of Covid-19 are set to have a major impact across Wales and the rest of the UK.

But certain towns look set to receive the greatest economic hardship and two reports have this week placed eight communities in North Wales among those at greatest risk.

With tourism and hospitality two of the worst hit sectors it is no surprise to find that among the communities under most threat are seaside towns.                      https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/eight-communities-north-wales-set-18148745 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/eight-communities-north-wales-set-18148745)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: bigbadhenry on April 27, 2020, 09:15:46 am
Shearings owner ‘starts administration process’ in race to find rescue deal
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 27, 2020, 10:15:27 am
Shame as they are owned these days by a US private equity firm with assets of $45 billion.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on July 22, 2020, 04:11:59 pm
Expecting too much, too soon ?

A family cut short their holiday to North Wales after describing post-lockdown Llandudno as being “like a scene from a zombie apocalypse”.

Ian Doyle, his wife and daughter, from the Wirral, booked a three-night stay in the seaside resort to coincide with the start of the school summer holidays.

But they claimed Llandudno was a “ghost town” with few hotels open, most attractions shut and long queues to get in the few public toilets available.

Full story    https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/merseyside-family-cuts-short-holiday-18640186 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/merseyside-family-cuts-short-holiday-18640186)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 22, 2020, 06:43:02 pm
Sorry, but there has been sufficient publicity telling people what would be open and where they could go. As you say Steve.....too much too soon.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 22, 2020, 07:31:13 pm
I know that a couple of the largest hotels are experiencing approaching capacity at the moment.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Nemesis on July 22, 2020, 09:16:33 pm
Just a shame for the people who cannot operate normally.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on July 24, 2020, 10:23:07 am
Some DP comments to the above story, and importantly, sympathetic reply's in the Liverpool Echo.


Rob Lee Colley said: "I respect what the Welsh government is doing. If people are not happy can they stay away."

Karen Schofield said: "It's common knowledge by now that the Welsh and Scottish governments are following a different timeline to the English government. The fault is his, some people love to find fault"

Will Stephens said: "Fortunately, the Senedd makes the rules, not the Doyles."

Emyr Williams said: "Should have checked first. Obviously not aware that Wales is a different nation to England, and that the rules were 'nationwide'!"

Tywysog Corniog on Twitter said: "Arrogant family doesn't do research, blames country they visit for their own ignorance."

Lynn Walker wrote: "Some people seem to think that because England has come out of lockdown everywhere has. The virus is still out there, it hasn’t gone away."

Susan Singfield commented: "How awful! It’s almost like there’s a global pandemic going on, with a cautious easing of lockdown designed to keep people safe."

Wendy Backhouse said: "Hes a little selfish don't you think? There's a lot of elderly people in Llandudno, most will still be shielding to save their lives, so sorry if your holiday was ruined, you'll get over it."

Julie Jarvis added: "Have these people been living under a rock for the past 4 months? Despicable of them to blame the resort, if the usual attractions and entertainment are of such importance to them then it's their own responsibility to decide whether it's right to take their holiday in the current situation!

"They should give a thought for the 45,000 people who will never be able to take a holiday again and consider themselves very lucky."


And from the Liverpool Echo....      These were a few of the reactions we received after running the story.

Allison Metcalf said: "Do people not watch the news. Places will be closed. Things are not back to normal. If you don’t like this, stay home."

Jon Williams said: "Went [to] Llandudno a few days ago and it was rammed. No parking, people everywhere in shops, pier open for rides and shops but arcades shut. All over North Wales, pub beer gardens open with no social distancing. Everyone was just sitting next to each other, having a drink, Definitely busier now."

Kate Roberts said: "We went in the rain on Saturday & even then there were a lot of people around considering the bad weather! There were also quite a lot of hotels open, shops, a few fair rides on the pier so definitely not a ghost town!"

Heather Francis said: "What did he expect? Wales are taking this lockdown completely differently to England. All he had to do was research and he would have found out everywhere is still closed."

Kathryn Brindley said: "They have their own lockdown rules in Wales! Holidaymakers should check first, I drove through the town on Sunday and from what I saw it was rammed with people, no not really apocalyptic as described, yes things are closed but that's in line with the COVID-19 rules. Have this family not heard of a bucket and spade? Picnic? Walk up the Great Orme?"
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: Ian on July 24, 2020, 11:34:47 am
Must admit, the family did seem to miss the fact that the beach and hills hadn't gone anywhere.
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on July 25, 2021, 04:02:13 pm
Wales' tourist image 'could be harmed' by overloaded infrastructure

As visitors flock to mountains and beaches there have been reports of packed trains, traffic jams and parking problems.

Tourism lecturer Marcus Hanson, of Wrexham Glyndwr University, said it could have "negative consequences".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57898837 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-57898837)
Title: Re: Obstacles or Asset
Post by: SteveH on July 26, 2021, 09:48:58 am
Tourism boss says visitor tax would be 'absolute disaster' as he makes windfall figures call
The Welsh Government is consulting on giving local authorities the power to impose a levy on overnight stays, which has concerned parts of the tourism sector

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourism-boss-says-visitor-tax-21142202?IYA-reg=a05105fc-304d-4c50-9807-edab51f779a4 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/tourism-boss-says-visitor-tax-21142202?IYA-reg=a05105fc-304d-4c50-9807-edab51f779a4)
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Wales
Post by: SteveH on July 24, 2022, 10:13:36 am
People have been left in disbelief over The Telegraph?s recent article advising its readers to avoid Wales and Cornwall this summer because the ?place names are weird?. The Telegraph?s travel writer, Ed Grenby, wrote in the article about advice on managing UK holiday expectations with children, that Wales was ?cheaper? for holidays but was let down by the place names. Instead, the newspaper recommends holidaymakers to visit Devon.

Some people are in disbelief that The Telegraph would publish such a statement. The comments prompted hundreds of comments, with most hitting out against the remarks.

Joy McHugh said: ?Would have expected a better class of journalist on The Telegraph - childish to call place names 'weird' just because you can't pronounce them. It seems to be written by the Tourism Officer for Devon!?

cont https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/welsh-language-telegraph-news-comments-24573112?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
Post by: SteveH on August 07, 2022, 09:59:12 am
Welsh tourism tax plan comes at 'worst possible time' as holiday bookings slump
The industry claims tourism firms are cancelling spending plans and preparing for closures and job losses amid cost-of-living fears

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/welsh-tourism-tax-plan-comes-24689525
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism
Post by: SteveH on October 07, 2022, 10:24:35 am
The closure of an inland surf attraction in north Wales would be a disaster, according to a tourism chief.

Bosses at Adventure Parc Snowdonia fear they may have to sell up after the business faced a string of setbacks.

They have been looking for investment that could lead to the site in Dolgarrog, Conwy county, being sold.

Jim Jones, head of Tourism North Wales, said while he feared the worst for the area if it did close, he was hopeful it would remain open.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-63145248
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: SteveH on March 04, 2023, 10:34:26 am
Snowdonia holiday cottage cancels ?12K refurb amid fears of Welsh tourism exodus
As new occupancy rules start to bite in Wales, a plea for additional self-catering exemptions has fallen on deaf ears

Holiday lets in Wales are being penalised through no fault of their own, tourism chiefs have said. Owners struggling to meet stiff new occupancy rules could face hefty council tax premiums if they fall ill or are forced to close for bad weather.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/snowdonia-holiday-cottage-cancels-12k-26376491
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: SteveH on May 16, 2023, 10:11:57 am
The North Wales beaches awarded Blue Flag and Green Coast status in 2023       :(
Full list of beaches across Wales on the prestigious list

Twenty five beaches in Wales have been awarded the prestigious Blue Flag status for 2023, but only one was in North Wales - Prestatyn.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-beaches-awarded-blue-26921767?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism
Post by: SteveH on July 12, 2023, 10:51:31 am
Tourism: Wales fails to attract overseas visitors, say MPs

Wales' hopes of becoming a global tourist attraction are hampered by confused marketing, a lack of holiday packages and poor transport connections, MPs have warned.

The Welsh affairs committee is concerned Wales attracts "such a small proportion" of visitors to the UK.

Of 41 million international holidaymakers to the UK in 2019, just over a million visited Wales.

Visit Wales said it would work with VisitBritain on how Wales is marketed.

A report by MPs on the committee highlighted the country's "relatively low profile overseas" and said "Wales lacks a coherent brand for the overseas market".

The report said ?28bn was spent in the UK by international tourists in 2019, but only ?515m of that was spent in Wales, or just 2%.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66171190
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Wales
Post by: SteveH on August 06, 2023, 10:29:47 am
Tourism: Wales visitors drop by 33% amid cost of living

The number of overseas visitors to Wales dropped by a third in three years, new figures show.

International Passenger Survey data, released by the Welsh government, shows there were 33% fewer inbound visitors to Wales in 2022 than 2019.

The amount they spent also dropped by 24%.

Businesses said that while wet weather could deter holidaymakers, a bigger factor was the cost of living crisis.

Sean Taylor, founder and president of Zip World based in Llanrwst, Conwy county, said the six-week school summer holiday was "absolutely essential" for the business.

He added: "The 49 days of summer holidays, including the Scottish holidays, accounts for about 55% of our turnover during the year - it's that important.

"We've had 13 consecutive interest rate rises - it's going to hit people in the pocket."

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66417213
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and NW
Post by: SteveH on August 12, 2023, 09:51:36 am
THIS year?s Welsh Adaptive Surfing Championships will not be held at Adventure Parc Snowdonia, as it has been in previous years, due to its wave machine not being in use.

Para surfer and event organiser Llywelyn Williams has had to move this year?s competition to The Wave, Bristol, with it taking place on August 18 and 19.

https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/23717354.para-surfing-championships-leave-conwy-due-faulty-wave-machine/
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and North Wales
Post by: SteveH on September 30, 2023, 10:08:27 am
'Bleak, dire, a complete downer'- tales from tourism in Wales after a soggy, skint summer
Washout summer and cost of living crisis has meant a mixed-bag season for operators

The latest tourism barometer has checked the pulse of the sector in Wales. While not flatlining, the soggy summer and cost of living crisis has damaged its health.

The Wales Tourism Business Barometer 2023: Summer Wave Report has shown that the boom of the Covid and post Covid summers has fallen away. Bad weather and the current costs hitting families and businesses were the main reasons - although that's not to say it was a complete washout.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/bleak-dire-complete-downer-tales-27808687
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and North Wales
Post by: SteveH on October 09, 2023, 09:48:33 am
Pier boss hires minibus to get staff home as transport and homes shortage barriers to tourism
The Covid pandemic cost Conwy?s tourist industry in the region of ?700m during a two-year period

The Covid pandemic cost Conwy?s tourist industry in the region of ?700m during a two-year period and housing and transport issues are now a drag on staffing the sector. A council report published this month shows that the county?s tourist industry made just ?372m in 2020 and ?729m in 2021 when lockdowns were still in place.

Previously the county made ?904m in 2018 and ?996m in 2019. The tourism vision ? the revised Destination Conwy Management Plan (DCMP) ? was published by both the Destination Conwy Partnership and Conwy County Council and went before the council?s economy and place overview and scrutiny committee.

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"Visitors are fussier than they've ever been, so they want super-fast wi-fi," she said. "They want decent rooms. They want different accommodation. They don't tend to go to B&Bs as much now - the self-catering, that's an issue with housing. The pier owner tells me he has to hire a bus on a Sunday to get his workers home because there's no way of getting them home. So it's not just about the visitor. It's about the residents and workforce, so I think that's important for it to work.

Full story https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/pier-boss-hires-minibus-staff-27860165?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589

Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno and North Wales
Post by: SteveH on December 20, 2023, 09:51:48 am
'Huge challenges' for tourism as latest visitor stay statistics published for Wales
Jim Jones, the Chief Executive of North Wales Tourism, said there are real concerns surrounding the implementation of the Welsh Government policies

The latest visitor accommodation figures have been released for Wales - with a tourism boss saying the sector faces "huge challenges" . Over the last few years the pandemic - and post pandemic - period has posed unique problems for the tourism and hospitality sectors, from lockdown closures to booming summers that left businesses struggling to meet demand.

Since then there has been a cost of business crisis with energy prices spiralling while Brexit and the pandemic impact has made recruitment more challenging and more expensive. In addition Welsh Government has been under fire for introducing and proposing new policies impacting the visitor sector, from second home rules and extra taxes to the planned tourism tax.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/huge-challenges-tourism-latest-visitor-28318797
Title: Re: Obstacles to Tourism in North Wales
Post by: SteveH on March 26, 2024, 09:57:29 am
What tourists think of 20mph Wales and whether they will stay away this year
The prospect of more leisurely speeds and fewer signs has detractors and supporters

Tourism groups in England could be forgiven for rubbing their hands over the new 20mph speed limits in Wales. Newspaper letters pages have heard howls of anguish from irate holidaymakers and, on online forums, some English tourists have vowed "never to set foot in Wales again".

The country?s visitor economy is braced for a backlash and places like the West Country are hoping to pick up the pieces. But how much of it is talk? Will the prospect of becoming speedo-watching ?Sunday drivers? affect visitor numbers from across the border ? or will this become part of the appeal?

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/what-tourists-think-20mph-wales-28885185?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589