Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: ckirkrph on May 20, 2017, 08:17:34 pm

Title: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on May 20, 2017, 08:17:34 pm
Hey there. I was fortunate enough to pick up last year on a conversation pertaining to Grace Ellen Jones and her family. My Great Great Grandmother was her sister Annie Maria(h) Jones . She died young in 1909 but not before having atleast 2 boys, one which carried down to me, with an Alfred Kirk, but they were given up for adoption after her death (would love more info on this) and sent to Halifax in 1915. So, I recently connected with a cousin who was able to send me a copy of a picture of Annie Maria's father whom we had found to be Pierce Jones, married to an Jane Williams. All is fine as I have other pics of this gentlemen rowing in boats at LLandudno, but on the back it is written William Pierce Jones! Not sure, even the birth certificate I found only had him listed as Pierce, I thought there was a brother named William but not much could be found. Does anybody know if my Pierce Jones of Tan Y Wal was actually William Pierce, or was this a brother? Anyways, I am trying to gather any and all info on this side of the family. Ultimately I want to find out where Annie maria is buried. Please, if anybody cares to comment I would appreciate it. Chad Kirk
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 20, 2017, 11:04:24 pm
Annie Marie Kirk's death was registered in Solihull  ( Birmingham area )  in the quarter July to Sept 1909 but I have no idea where she was buried.  I think that I had a search previously in the local Archives but found no trace of her in any of the Burial Indexes.
Perhaps someone else on the forum may be able to find this information for you.
I found Pierce's grave in Glanwydden but the inscription on the headstone just said Pierce Jones.    Sorry that I can't help you any more at the moment
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 22, 2017, 04:16:21 pm
I was at the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the Baptism records for the Parishes of Eglwysrhos and Llangystennin for the mid 1800's.
I was hoping to see  Pierce Jones' Baptism record and the names on it.     Unfortunately there was no entry for Pierce in either record and I noted that there were no other entries for anyone living at Tan Y Wal.
In those days nearly everyone was Baptised and as we know Pierce and his parents were members of the Baptist Chapel at Glanwydden so I would guess that the Baptisms were recorded in the Chapel register and I've no idea where those records are but that they are not in the Conwy Archives
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: mull on June 28, 2017, 05:17:57 pm
Hi folks.
Just been on the Nestoria website and found :-

Tan-y-wal, Penrhynside, to be sold by auction at a guide price of £110,000 includes all the land with planning permission for a 3 bed semi . Auction is on 12th July 2017, Crown Plaza Hotel, Pier Head, Liverpool.
I would think it would go for more than that with the planning permission.
Bit out of my range  I think.
Nows your chance Hugo.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on June 28, 2017, 06:16:28 pm
Mull,  how can you get planning for a 3 bed semi?     Unless of course it's going to be attached to Tan Y Wal.       

Out of my range too,  I'm an OAP  don't forget.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Bri Roberts on June 28, 2017, 06:22:45 pm
You could always consider an equity release, Hugo.  ¢¢##
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: mull on June 28, 2017, 08:20:57 pm
Its on all the land below the cottage.
No mention of how Tan -y-wal wil be dealt with seeing as it is Graded 2 Listed although there are a lot of alterations been made already which I am suprised anyone got the permission for.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 01:36:54 am
I would love to get my hands on that property, but would have limited times to visit and no way to manage maintenance issues, but I can almost see my great great grandmother walking through the gate via the pics you all made available. Thanks for that. Hope all are well, and thanks for all the digging you have done Hugo!! I am trying to piece together Annie Maria's life details and death, it has been a challenge, especially finding out where Alfred Kirk ended up after her death, and what lead to her 2 sons being sent to Halifax after being sent to I believe Middlemore House orphanage. The mystery has always been why were the boys sent away, and did Alfred start over. Family stories passed down say Alfred's father disliked the boys, or Alfred, well, somebody, and when Annie Maria Jones passed so young, Alfred either sentthe boys away, or perhaps was so poor they were taken away, perhaps he, remarried and ..... So, again, I apologize for disappearingfor so long. Thanks for all your help, I would really like to connect with any of the Jones family who are still residing in your area who might like to trade info and pics with me. Thanks again fellas!! I also would like Mull to send me his info and parents grandparentsetc so I can officially add him to my/our tree. Also, one of those Kirk boys sent from orphanage to Halifax, one of their sons is still alive, he and I chat as often as possible, and I am hoping to solve as many of these Kirk/Jones mysteries as possible so your efforts are invaluableto me! Chad
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2017, 09:36:26 am
Chad,   I had a walk through the village of Penrhynside in early December and if you look under the heading "walking" on the forum, you'll see photos of the village that I've posted.
I know that you would love to be able to do that and think about your ancestors who lived in this close community.

Since I visited Tan Y Wal with Mull and his wife Lorna not much has been done to the house but I did notice that the narrow path leading up to the house had been cleared of vegitation.    Mull will remember it like this and all that was missing was the name Tan Y Wal which was on the iron gate.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2017, 12:24:41 pm
Chad,  just a few things, you are probably aware of them but I'll post them anyway:-

Annie Maria Jones got married to Alfred Kirk in the bride's home Registration District of Conway.  This was registered in the Conwy District in the quarter Oct- Dec 1900.     Now the details of the wedding may be in a newspaper in the Conwy Archives but if you look under Wales Newspapers on line I think that they cover up to 1919 so if there is an entry for the wedding you may be able to find it but look for the Wales papers  Llandudno Advertiser or the North Wales Weekly News

Now Annie died in 1909 and the death was registered in the Solihull District of Birmingham in the quarter July- Sept 1909.    Now if you look under "British Newspapers online"  the English newspapers on line go up to about 1950 so it gives you a lot of things to look for.
I've done some personal research for myself and my relatives were in Solihull in the 1940's so I found what I was looking for in the Birmingham Mail but there are other Birmingham papers to look through too.

Good luck, it is time consuming but may be worth it     $good$

Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2017, 03:00:19 pm
Chad,   I read an article in the Daily Mirror today  (it's a British daily newspaper)  and thought that you might be interested to see it.  It just shows you how great the improvements are in modern day science and how they can link the DNA gene to people.

I tried it myself when an offer came up with my Heritage.     It's an easy process to do yourself and after I had followed the instructions I sent the package of to the laboratory in Houston Texas.
After about 4 weeks they send you the findings by e-mail and it basically tells you where your ancestors came from and also links you to others that have a similar DNA.     You can complete a family tree and you would be surprised what turns up.

I have used My Heritage but there are others that do a similar thing, might be something useful for you

Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:20:11 pm
I very much appreciate the info and advice. Growing up a Kirk I had originally always fixated on Alfred, but I gotta tell ya, with the beauty of Llandudno, and the history of the Jones family in the region, and the untimely death of Annie Maria I sorta really switched my efforts to her, and her side that we knew nothing about, and then finding Annie Maria's grand son still alive I feel impelled to help him know more of his grandma. None of this would have ever gotten this far without your help and this forum to unite us. I hope to meet you sone day soon. Thanks for those leads. I hope to find those Jones relatives you mentioned, interesting, but I found a census where Annie Maria's one son was boarding with his father, Alfred, but his oldest son  (my  great grandfather), was living with the Jones family, so it does seem like they probably tried to keep them around, but ultimately they were shipped to Halifax. So many questions, perhaps the Jones relations still there know what happened. Hmm. lol! Thanks again!
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:28:02 pm
1911 census
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on December 28, 2017, 06:29:06 pm
1911 census
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2018, 05:30:25 pm
Lots of mysteries Chad but they may come to light in due course.    I had a look online and also in the Archives at the local papers for 1900 but could see no mention of the marriage between Alfred and Annie.
That's a shame really as those old reports contained a lot of info that could have helped you with your search.

Have you found out where Annie was buried?
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 09, 2018, 04:31:32 am
Hey. No I sure haven't found her burial place yet. I found a record I believe 12/12/1900 for marriage. It was tricky, they had Kirk spelled something line Kirth or some variation. If will look for a picture of that record and try to attach. I think I found a record of her death in Solihull 1909.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 09, 2018, 04:39:44 am
Marriage record
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 09, 2018, 04:46:03 am
Interesting story.  On this side of the water, we have William Pierce Kirk Sr, Jr, etc. My uncle who is a William P. Kirk ALWAYS disliked his middle name. Nobody knew where it even originated, until I saw this marriage paperwork.  Her father was Pierce, Alfred's was William, and I guess the rest is history. I saw William listed as a bailiff, but then nothing else. I  think he was a butler. Anyways, thanks as usual, and I will be sitting down to start  looking at old periodicals as you suggested. Thanks guys!
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on January 09, 2018, 09:20:08 am
If you ever come to Llandudno you could always stay at this place,  Ty Newydd Cottage Old Road which is just across the road from the Kings Head pub.        Z** Z**   Z**
The tram station to go up the Great Orme is opposite the cottage too     



https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj9g7vWxcrYAhVpLsAKHfDMCyAQFggtMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tripadvisor.co.uk%2FVacationRentalReview-g190724-d3875214-Ty_Newydd_Cottage-Llandudno_Conwy_County_North_Wales_Wales.html&usg=AOvVaw1VA6rLyzZdGzwM8gYoi4q8 (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj9g7vWxcrYAhVpLsAKHfDMCyAQFggtMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tripadvisor.co.uk%2FVacationRentalReview-g190724-d3875214-Ty_Newydd_Cottage-Llandudno_Conwy_County_North_Wales_Wales.html&usg=AOvVaw1VA6rLyzZdGzwM8gYoi4q8)
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 09, 2018, 01:12:55 pm
I have been kicking around a week or so to get out there. Would be nice to meet y'all and get dusty in those archives. Appreciate the info. Hey, which church is "the old parish church exactly?
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Cambrian on January 09, 2018, 01:36:30 pm
The parish church for Llandudno in 1900 was St George's Church in Church Walks.  It closed several years ago and the parish church is now Holy Trinity in the town centre.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on January 09, 2018, 01:54:33 pm
The original Parish Church would have been St Tudno's on the Great Orme but in 1840 St George's Church in Church Walks was consecrated and designated the Parish Church in 1862 so Alfred and Mariah must have been married in that Church in 1900.

I took these 3 photos of Ty Newydd this morning as I was in Llandudno and then had a look in some of my books on Llandudno to see about Ty Newydd (Eng  New House)   
The two cottages must have been built in 1817 one of the cottages was called Siop Ty Newydd  (Eng   New House Shop)  and was a Williams' family business selling drapery and groceries.
According to the book I read No's 1 & 2   Ty Newydd Cottages sported the last thatched roof in Llandudno up to 1920.   So in Alfred's time in the cottage the thatch would have still been on the roof
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 09, 2018, 07:01:21 pm
Wow, the pics are awesome! So they got married in St. George's church. Okay, thanks fellas!!
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: PhilMick on January 10, 2018, 10:25:16 am
Marriage record

I thought you may be interested in this  birth certificate.

Mary Grace is my wife's great grandmother and she was born in Ty Newydd.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on January 10, 2018, 01:36:50 pm
Thanks for sharing that Certificate PhilMick.   In Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"  he mentions a widower called William Jones living in one of the Ty Newydd cottages, perhaps it was John's father?

Families often used to pass names down to their children and I've seen the name Mary Grace Jones before but can't place it but think that I've heard it mentioned in the 1960's.
Did a family member with that name live on the Great Orme in the 1950's or 1960's?
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on January 10, 2018, 03:57:59 pm
St George's Church this afternoon
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on January 16, 2018, 01:54:35 pm
Will add the certificate! Thabks for sharing. That church pic is very much appreciated too!
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on March 06, 2018, 02:52:12 am
Hey there.  I was reading through some old posts, and I realized someone had posted some info on a Mary Grace. Trying to figure out where they fall into my tree. Anybody have any more info. Philmick, if you see this let me know.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: PhilMick on March 06, 2018, 07:49:09 am
Hi - do you have access to Ancestry?
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2018, 04:01:44 pm
Just as a matter of interest, roughly when was your Mary Grace born?
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: PhilMick on March 07, 2018, 03:52:07 pm
Hugo = birth cerificate above.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2018, 04:38:57 pm
Thanks Philmick,      $good$

She's not the one I was thinking about, the name I heard was much more recent
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on March 07, 2018, 08:16:28 pm
I do have access to Ancestry.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: PhilMick on March 09, 2018, 09:29:05 am
Use Mary Grace's birth data to search the family trees on Ancestry - there are quite a few trees that you can access, including my wife's. This might be of help to you.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on March 09, 2018, 01:18:30 pm
I will. Thanks!
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: ckirkrph on March 09, 2018, 01:25:30 pm
Oh, hey Hugo.  I happened upon their marriage certificate with Kirk spelled Kirth. Then Annie Maria was spelled Annie Mariah Jones.  I went through 800 certificates one at a time and happened to find it by chance. This is in response to an earlier response of yours of nothing being found for these guys, most likely due to Kirk misspelling. Married 12 12 1900. Thanks sgain.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 18, 2018, 03:57:35 pm
Mull, hope that you are both keeping well up there on the island.    Have you ever heard of Pierce Jones, a butcher who had an abattoir just behind Tan Y Wal?
The only reason I am asking is because I had a drink or two last night and Dafydd from Penrhynside was there and he mentioned that.
Would the butcher have been a relative of yours or not?
Dafydd was asking me to take him to the memorial on the Little Orme so I'll do that asap and ask him for more info then
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: mull on May 18, 2018, 06:28:53 pm
Hi Hugo,
Yes all fine up here just wish we had your sunshine.
Been in North Yorkshire for the past 2 weeks visiting family.

Tan Y Wal
First I have heard of an abattoir there. But...... what I do remember is the house at the other end of the terrace was home to the Pierce family and Mr Pierce had the butchers shop in the village. The shop was on the triangle next door to the Coop, near to were we parked up last summer.

Wish I could join you for the walk to the memorial, perhaps next visit.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 18, 2018, 06:39:22 pm
Thanks Mull, it would appear that Dafydd has got the names mixed up and mistaken Pierce Jones for Mr Pierce.   He'd had a few beers when I spoke to him so that may account for his mistake.
If the tide and times are suitable then we'll have that walk to the memorial on your next trip over
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2018, 05:23:23 pm
Hi Mul,    I had a drink with Dafydd last night and after I explained again to him, he realised that he was mistaken with what he had told me in the past.
One interesting thing he said was that his family once lived at Siop Y Roe, that's the small cottage at the top of the hill where you see the sign "Llandudno welcomes you"     It was a smallholding that operated as a shop and between the wars it also offered refreshments to passers by.  Dafydd said that he had found a few old pop bottles at the back of the cottage and they had the makers name on them.  He thought that the name was something Hill from Llandudno but couldn't be sure
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: mull on May 25, 2018, 06:21:13 pm
Hi Hugo........ Seem to remember someone who lived in that cottage used to visit Uncle Hugh in his cobblers workshop.
Always seemed to be people visiting and chatting whilst he worked, nice fire going in the stove and old Uncle Hugh aiming his spit into the bucket. Another world 60 plus years ago. 
Just had a look on the West Shore Webcam it looks very wet there.  Fantastic here sunshine all day..... about time.
Mull.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Jack on May 25, 2018, 06:59:03 pm
Hi Mul,    I had a drink with Dafydd last night and after I explained again to him, he realised that he was mistaken with what he had told me in the past.
One interesting thing he said was that his family once lived at Siop Y Roe, that's the small cottage at the top of the hill where you see the sign "Llandudno welcomes you"     It was a smallholding that operated as a shop and between the wars it also offered refreshments to passers by.  Dafydd said that he had found a few old pop bottles at the back of the cottage and they had the makers name on them.  He thought that the name was something Hill from Llandudno but couldn't be sure

Hugo, that will probably be William Hill of the Perseverance Aerated Water Works, Llandudno  :)
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2018, 10:19:35 pm
Thanks Cambrian, Dafydd did say at first that it was William Hill but then said that he wasn't sure of the Christian name but he had had a few drinks by then
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2018, 10:24:07 pm
Hi Mull,  perhaps the Jones family from Siop Y Roe were related in some way to the Pierce Jones family,  but I don't think that I'll ever get the info from Dafydd unless he goes on the wagon.
Title: Re: Pierce and Jane Jones of Tan Y Wal
Post by: Hugo on May 26, 2018, 09:44:11 am
OOPS,  I've just noted that it was Jack who advised me of the William Hill bottle co.

Thanks Jack