Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: Helig on March 14, 2019, 11:00:53 am
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I wonder if someone can help me by doing a few local searches. I have seen an entry on the 1939 register which is intriguing. This is for Elizabeth Kerridge, living at Poplars, Clement Avenue, Llandudno. Her date of birth is shown as 8 June 1869 and she states she is a Manageress of a Restaurant.
I suspect she is a relation of mine and am trying to prove this. In an earlier request on this site I asked about the death of an Elizabeth Kerridge living in 2 Clement Avenue in 1947. Hugo kindly gave me some information and it is thought she is a relation. She is someone a number of her descendants are trying to trace after her last appearance in a census in 1911.
What makes it more interesting is that my mother used to talk about a relation who was manageress of The Cocoa House in Llandudno. Could this be the same person?
Is it possible to look at the old Street and Commercial Directories for Llandudno to see if Elizabeth Kerridge was living there prior to 1939? I imagine she could have lived there anytime from the 1920s/1930s. I know these directories used to be kept in Llandudno Library. It would be helpful in trying to establish if she is a relation. Also, does anyone have any knowledge of The Cocoa House in days gone by?
Helig
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Info re the cocoa house can be found here....
http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=suffragist-pioneers-meeting-place (http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=suffragist-pioneers-meeting-place)
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Hi Helig, I hope that you are ok up there in the Scottish Lowlands with Storm Gareth. It has been pretty grim here with the winds and rain, not that Rhuddlan would know anything about the weathere here as he has been sunning himself in the Canarys again, lucky B
The Archives have street indexes for I think 1911, 1914, 1922, 1926, 1929, 1939 and another sometime in the early sixties. These indexes only list one person living at the address and that is usually the head of the family or the breadwinner but with a name like Kerridge they are easy to find.
As far as I am aware the Cocoa House is still going but the entrance is behind Mostyn Street by the Town Hall.
When I next go to the Archives I can have a look at the Street Indexes and will post anything I find on here.
I don't know if you are familiar with The Conwy Archives online catalogue but it's a handy thing to know about. To get into it you need to go on the CCBC website then click on search. Put in Conwy Archives and click on it and look for online catalogue where you can do searches
I've done that today and in the search at online catalogue I've put in "Kerridge" and 6 items have turned up, whether they are any good for you I don't know but you'll have to see them for yourself.
You could also put in Cocoa House and see what turns up but it is handy for local research
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Hello Hugo and Rhuddlan,
Thank you very much for this information.
The search of the street directories would be best started from the 1920s. I didn't know about the Conwy Archives online catalogue and will see what they have on the Kerridge family.
I was surprised to hear The Cocoa House is still there. All the time I was in Llandudno I never went in there once. We used to go to either Sumners, or Sandbach for coffee, or lunch. In later years The Queens Hotel used to be the favourite. The post about in online was of great interest.
I have just done a search of the Conwy Archives catalogue and found the 6 entries for Kerridge. Five of them relate to members of my family. Some of the details need further investigation, more mysteries by the look of it.
Storm Gareth wasn't too bad, the winds were the worst of it. There was some flooding but nothing serious.
Helig.
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Those Street Indexes list the streets in alphabetical order and then list the individual who lives in each house. Better still is the fact that those individuals are also listed alphabetically in the Street Index so it's easy to find a name like Kerridge.
What I'll do Helig is to go through all the indexes and list any Kerridge that is in the books and leave it up to you to look at them
I'll also see if they have any info on Elizabeth.
The Cocoa House is at 2 George Street and behind the one in the photo. You go downstairs into a basement area and we used to go there quite often years ago because the food and the atmosphere were so good
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Helig, The Elizabeth Kerridge who was your relative was she born about 1860 and died in 1947 aged 87? As a matter of interest was she a spinster or did she marry into the Kerridge family?
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The Cocoa House which is now in George Street. By the way I'm hoping to visit the Archives this week all being well
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for the photos. I remember seeing The Cocoa House but never ventured in it.
There is no rush to go to the archives.
Elizabeth Kerridge in the 1939 register is thought to be the same Elizabeth Kerridge that died in Llandudno in 1947. The only doubt is that in the 1939 register, her year of birth is shown as 1869, rather than 1859 which is the correct one.
It is a long story this one. My great grandfather, Albert Abraham Kerridge, had an older brother, Henry Francis Kerridge (HFK) born 1860. There was never any mention of HFK by the family and in 2005 a family surfaced in New Zealand who were descended form HFK. They had been unknown to anyone prior to that. One of them came over about 2011 and we did some research to find that HFK had been a solicitor in Brighton and had a breakdown which resulted in him being committed to the Brighton Asylum in 1894. He stayed there until he died in 1921. In the 1881 and 1891 census returns HFK had a wife, Eliza and two daughters, Edith Ethel Kerridge and Gertrude Frances Kerridge. We have searched extensively but cannot find a marriage between HFK and Eliza (maiden name Hayler).
In the 1901 census both Edith and Gertrude were with my great grandparents and their family in Leamington Spa. Eliza was known to be living in Brighton in 1905. In the 1911 census she is living in London with her daughter, Gertrude. Her name in that is Elizabeth Kerridge, widow.
Edith Ethel Kerridge went out to New Zealand in November 1904, she arrived in Wellington and in June 1905, she gave birth to a daughter. The family in NZ descend from this child. Subsequent to that, Edith appears in an electoral roll in Wellington in 1908 but after that there is no trace of her so far.
My great grandparents moved to North Wales in the early 1900s. They had pubs and hotels all over, from the Harp in Corwen to The Station Hotel in Blaenau Ffestiniog. They settled in Conwy, Llandudno Junction and then Llandudno eventually. They were in Llandudno by 1908. Gertrude Kerridge must have moved with them and she is shown as the proprietress of The Gwydyr Hotel in Dolwyddelen when she died in 1913.
It is possible that Elizabeth Kerridge moved up to North Wales, possibly to join her daughter Gertrude. Someone has found an article in an old Welsh paper about a Mrs Kerridge at the Gwydyr Hotel, Dolwyddelen and this is dated 1915. It isn't Gertrude as she died in 1913. We wonder if that is Elizabeth Kerridge.
Nothing more is known about Elizabeth Kerridge until the entry in the 1939 register, then the death registered in 1947.
It is likely she moved to join her daughter, or the Kerridge family. Proving it is something else. The street and commercial directories may answer the query over her.
Helig
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Just a couple of random items from local press. In April, 1910, the two sons of Mr Kerridge, North Western Hotel, Llandudno Junction, Albert Henry and George Frederick, left for Chester en route to Chatham to join the Clerical Department of the Royal Engineers.
In October 1910, Mr A.H. Kerridge left the Bridge Hotel, Conway.
Similar items can be seen on the Wales Newpapers Online site.
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As a matter of interest Hugo , did the property in George Street used to be a Fish café ?
I seem to remember eating in there with my father shortly before he retired and moving back to Llandudno. That would be about 1970 .
At the time it was run by a ships cook and had a very good reputation .
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Helig, I've been to the Archives this afternoon to see what info I could gather about Elizabeth and there isn't much that you don't already know.
I've concentrated entirely on Llandudno and had a look at all the Street Indexes going from 1911 to the early 1960's and there is no entry for Elizabeth.
In fact the only Kerridges that are listed, you already know about them. There is Albert A Kerridge, Mrs Amelia Kerridge and S F Kerridge. The reason for this is because the Street Indexes list the owners of the property and Elizabeth was not the owner of the property
The Poplars and No 2 Clement Avenue are the same. It was a semi detached property ( see photo and the Poplars is the one on the right and the business was apartments so in fact Elizabeth rented a room there. I've seen the 1939 Register that you refer to and I have compared this to the 1939 Street Index. The owner was a Miss M Jones and you will see her entry in the 1939 Register. The street Index shows that Miss M Jones is the owner
I looked at the 1947 Llandudno Advertiser for an obituary for Elizabeth but there was no record of it. There was however one for Mrs A A Kerridge in the edition of the 15th February 1947 pg 5 but I think you already have those details
The 1939 Register shows Elizabeth's DOB as the 8th June 1869 and her occupation as Manageress Restaurant but although the lady in the Archives went to a lot of trouble it was impossible to say which restaurant she worked at.
Just as an additional bit of info and no connection whatsoever to Elizabeth's time at the Poplars I found this online:-
According to the Llandudno Advertiser, Belgian civilian refugees were billeted at The Poplars’, Clement Avenue
I couldn't find a grave for Elizabeth in the local area and was wondering if she could have been buried with a family member elsewhere
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As a matter of interest Hugo , did the property in George Street used to be a Fish café ?
I seem to remember eating in there with my father shortly before he retired and moving back to Llandudno. That would be about 1970 .
At the time it was run by a ships cook and had a very good reputation .
I'm not sure Mull as I can only remember it as the Cocoa House but I do know from the Street Indexes that it was a cafe at one time and they must have renamed it the Cocoa house as it was part of the original building. It had a nice menu when I looked at it yesterday, very tempting indeed.
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Thank you for all your efforts, Hugo. Also thanks to Rhuddlan for that information.
The fact that 2 Clement Ave and Poplars, Clement Ave, are one and the same place makes me certain that this is the same person. Elizabeth would have stayed there until she died by the look of it.
My theory is that she moved up to join her daughter, Gertrude and stayed in North Wales until she died. She wouldn't have been well provided for to my knowledge. I doubt it will be possible to prove this so it will be another mystery in the Kerridge family.
Thanks again.
Helig.
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Helig, just to clarify something about Elizabeth, was she married to Henry Francis Kerridge and was her maiden name Hayler?
The reason I'm curious is because her date of birth was given as the 8th June 1869 and there is no matching birth record in the BMD records I've seen.
There is an Elizabeth Hayler born in 1869 and registered in Cuckfield but that was in the December quarter so it couldn't be her
What I think may have happened to agree with your thinking that she was born in 1860 is that she lied to the people who knew her in Llandudno.
In the 1939 Register she was a manageress for a restaurant and would have been 79 at the time which was quite old for working so she may have deducted a few years off her age when talking to people but her birthday on the 8th June would remain as correct.
There is an Elizabeth Hayler whose birth was registered in the June quarter of 1860 in Reigate and that would fit in with what you have said
As for the place of burial that's a mystery for now
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Hello Hugo,
Eliza/Elizabeth was the partner of Henry Francis Kerridge. No marriage can be found. I suspect that they got together when they were both under age (in 1881 they have a daughter, Edith Ethel born that year) and it could be Henry's parents didn't approve of her.
The birth and baptism were in Arundel, Sussex, and she was registered as Eliza Hayler. She was born on 26 June 1859.
I think there are two possibilities for her age being incorrect in the 1939 register:
1) there was a mistake in the transcription, or the enumerator got it wrong, or
(2) she falsified her age for reasons you suggest.
She seems to have changed her name to Elizabeth in the early 1900s as she is living under that name in The Dyke Hotel, Devil's Dyke, Brighton in 1905. In the 1911 census, she is Elizabeth Kerridge, widow.
Thanks again.
Helig.
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I went down to Conwy Library this morning to see if I could find a Burial place for Eliza/Elizabeth Kerridge in the Memorial Inscription booklets for the area, but no luck I'm afraid.
I'm not sure if you already have this information but what I did come across was Grave A059 In loving memory of Albert Abraham the beloved husband of Amelia Kerridge who departed this life September 6th 1915 age 49 years. "Peace Perfect Peace".'
'Not sad but beautiful, his memory so calm, so bright
'Twill lead us through earth's darkness, tenderly into God's Light'.
(Marble cross with concrete kerbs)
Also grave A061a, In loving memory of our father Henry Kerridge who fell asleep age 82.
(slate kerbs)
Both these graves are at St Agnes Cemetery, Conwy.
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Thanks very much for looking Meleri, Elizabeth's grave is a mystery still.
I saw the graves in St Agnes' Church some time ago and unfortunately the cemetery was very overgrown. Henry Kerridge's grave is behind the cross and is even more overgrown
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The Friends of St Agnes Cemetery have cleared a lot of it now Hugo & it looks a lot tidier, when I have time I might pop down & have a look to see if I can get any more information off both headstones. Sadly if Eliza/Elizabeth Kerridge did not have much money she could have possibly gone into a paupers grave.
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Hello Meleri,
Thank you for your interest.
I suspect Elizabeth would have had little, or no, money and would have had a pauper's funeral. By the time she died the family nearest to her were all dead. Her surviving daughter, Edith Ethel Kerridge, cannot be located after 1908 when she was living in Wellington, New Zealand.
I did wonder if she could have been cremated, was that a possibility in those days?
Helig.
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I thought I would have a look for the daughter. Assuming she did not marry and decided to return to the uk
this is a possibility....a lot of assumptions I know but you never know with family history research! It seems to fit in with her birth in 1881 in Brighton in terms of age at death.
I read a lot of what in the public domain(roots... etc) in terms of attempts to trace what happened to her post 1908 so I think its only a
very vague possibility!!But I thought I would post it anyhow.
Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page
Deaths Dec 1961
KERRIDGE Edith E 80 Battersea 5c 43
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It's a possibility Rhuddlan, Helig mentions that both daughters were in the 1881 Census but hasn't said the ages. The mother Elizabeth was about 21 at the time but had two children
What is certain is that Gertrude died in 1913 and the death was registered in the Llanrwst District and her mother Elizabeth died in 1947 and her death was registered in the Conway District
I've had numerous searches but cannot find the graves of either the mother or the daughter
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I thought this was Henry but I may be wrong! no children in April when the census was done and birth later in the year.
Must admit I maybe up the pole here....I thought kerridge would be a relatively easy name to trace!!!
Perhaps helig can comment on this and my earlier posting today?
Name: Henry Kerridge
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1881
Event Place: Brighton, Sussex, England
Registration District: Brighton
Residence Note: Railway Street
Gender: Male
Age: 22
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Solicitors Clerk
Relationship to Head of Household: Head Lodger
Birth Year (Estimated): 1859
Birthplace: London, Middlesex, England
Page Number: 34
Registration Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 1088/67
Affiliate Record Type: Household
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Henry Kerridge Head Lodger Male 22 London, Middlesex, England
Eliza Kerridge Wife Female 22 Arundel, Sussex, England
Image of Henry Kerridge, England and Wales Census, 1881
Record Collection:
England and Wales Census, 1881
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Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1881 (>99%)
Kerridge Edith Ethel Brighton 2b 223
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There has been a lot of research about this and I accept my posting at 2,30 today has been eliminated previously viz .
sorry,,,I had no idea there were so many rootschat discussions about this very elusive lady! I keep finding them!!!!
Sorry to have wasted anyones time here!
KERRIDGE - Edith Elizabeth - widow of 90 Muncaster Road, Battersea - died 8 December 1961.
Probate granted to Florence Amelia COUPLAND : [L 7236-4s-0d]
[KERRIDGE - James of 90 Muncaster Road, Battersea - died 2 September 1954. Admin. to Edith Elizabeth KERRIDGE, widow.]
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This is the Census for 1891 and as can be seen from the ages of the children they were not born when the 1881 Census took place and this would agree with Rhuddlan's findings on the 1881 Census
Census Year County Place Civil Parish Ecclesiastical Parish Piece Enumeration District Folio Page Schedule House Number House or Street Name
1891 Sussex (SSX) Brighton Brighton St Martin 808 29 106 16 99 11 Upper Wellington Rd
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
KERRIDGE Henry Head M M 30 Solicitors Clerk (Em'ee) LND Kensington
KERRIDGE Eliza Wife M F 30 SSX Arundel
KERRIDGE Edith Dau - F 9 Scholar SSX Brighton
KERRIDGE Gertrude F Dau - F 6 Scholar SSX Brighton
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Hello Hugo and Rhuddlan,
Thank you for the new posts.
The Elizabeth Kerridge who died in Battersea RD in 1961 looked promising but she has been investigated and can be traced back so it could be established it is not the right person. She was married to someone else and was a widow when she died. We found her in the census returns and know for sure it isn't our Elizabeth K. Her maiden name was different.
Rhuddlan has the right Henry Francis Kerridge in Brighton in the 1881 and 1891 census returns. Although it states "married" there have been extensive searches to find a marriage all to no avail. Edith was born on 6 August 1881, so she should have been shown on the 1881 census.
It gets confusing as the grave of Henry Kerridge in St Agnes, Conwy, was of Henry Kerridge b1834, Brettenham, Norfolk. He was the father of Henry Francis Kerridge and my gt grandfather, Albert Abraham. Henry Francis Kerridge was buried in the grounds of Brighton Asylum in 1921.
There are more mysteries as Henry Kerridge, senior, left Hove c1898 and moved with my gt grandparents to Leamington Spa where they ran the Clarendon Hotel. Edith and Gertrude are with them there in the 1901 census. Henry later ran The North Western Hotel in Llandudno Junction, until he died there in 1916. My grandmother and her sister were with him there in the 1911 census. Henry's wife, Frances Kerridge stayed in Hove until she died in 1903. I found her grave in Hove cemetery and it has a magnficent monument with many tributes to her from her children. What struck me as curious was the fact there was no mention whatsoever of her husband, Henry Kerridge.
I lived with my grandmother, Florence Kerridge, for a time and visited her very often. Although we were close, she never spoke about her childhood, or family. The only things I remember her saying was that she hated Blaenau Ffestiniog because of the climate. She disliked Conwy as she said the river brought in the damp and the walls held it in. She added it was awkward to meet a boy without being seen. She loved Llandudno and remained there until she died age 88. She is buried in St Tudno with her husband who predeceased her.
Helig.
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Rhuddlan has the right Henry Francis Kerridge in Brighton in the 1881 and 1891 census returns. Although it states "married" there have been extensive searches to find a marriage all to no avail. Edith was born on 6 August 1881, so she should have been shown on the 1881 census.
Helig.
Just an observation on this point Helig, The 1881 Census was carried out on the night of the 3rd April 1881 so if Edith was not born until the 6th August 1881 she wouldn't be on the 1881 Census
She does appear on the 1891 Census and her age is given as 9
It's frustrating not being able to find the graves of Gertrude and Elizabeth because they both died in the area now covered by Conwy County
The information must be in this area somewhere, but where?
Helig, I've just had an afterthought
Go to the website of Colwyn Bay Crematorium. They have a questions and answer part and if you provide the details of Elizabeth and Gertrude they may have the details of their burials there. Nothing to lose by trying that method or alternatively give them a phone call Phone: 01492 577731
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Hello Helig,
Fascinating stuff!
The 1881 census was apparently done on the night of the 3rd of April . Therefore EEK did not appear on the census as she was not born until some months after this date.
For info
The date of the 1851 census was the night of 30 March 1851. The date of the 1861 census was the night of 7 April 1861. The date of the 1871 census was the night of 2 April 1871. The date of the 1881 census was the night of 3 April 1881
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Must say I find these emoticons or whatever they are called are most irritating!! Each to there own though.
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What on earth are you on about Rhuddlan? ;D
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Ha Ha.
I just find the things distracting when I'm trying to concentrate. This is why you were quicker off the mark in you reply than me.
I did get a warning that someone had posted something but I thought "effit" and posted it anyway.
I'm tempted to use the oops little man.... but won't!
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Effit ! :o that's not very nice *punch*
Too much time in those sunny islands is turning you into a grumpy old man, it's time that you had a walk with Tellytubby and me $hands$ and then we can finish the walks like we usually do $cofffee$ $good$
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I'm not having much luck finding the Kerridge Ladies either :( What I did find in the Llandudno Advertiser 11th August 1906 was mention of 'License applied for the transfer of License of The North Western Hotel Llandudno Junction from Mr Wallbank to Mr Kerridge late of the Queen's Hotel Blaenau Ffestiniog'.
I did a double check on Edith Ethel Kerridge who died 1961 Battersea & her maiden name was Hain, so not the right one.
I found a EE Kerridge Lady's maid age 23 born 1881, departing from London & sailing on the Ruapehu to Wellington New Zealand on the 2/11/1904 but couldn't find any return journey. Do you know who she married in New Zealand, if she did return to Britain it would have been under her married name?
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Hello Hugo, Rhuddlan and Meleri,
Thank you for the information and suggestions. I will pursue the Colwyn Bay crematorium possibility.
The transfer of License of the North Western Hotel was to my gt grandfather, Albert Abraham Kerridge. They were supposed to have had The Station Hotel in Blaenau Ffestiniog at one time. My mother said that they worked for Inde Coop and worked all over North Wales with them. Later on they had their own places, The Crossings in Llandudno Junction was one of them. That was said to be an open house, it never closed, day or night. According to my mother, the local Police entered and exited by the back door whenever they chose.
Both Albert Abraham Kerridge and his wife, Amelia, learned to speak Welsh fluently. They needed to be able to chat in Welsh for their businesses to survive.
Meleri, the E E Kerridge you found sailing to NZ on the Ruapehu is the lady that disappeared without trace so far. There is no marriage for her in NZ that has ben traced to date. My cousin over there, one of her direct descendants, has spent hours in the archives and more as he lives in Wellington too. She is on an electoral roll in Marjoribanks St, Wellington in 1908. That is the last we can find for her. He has spent at least 17 years looking for her without success. He has searched the ships leaving NZ for many destinations, there was no trace of her in these. It is possible she changed her name and didn't marry, the same as her mother.
Someone recommended searching the NZ deaths for people with the name Edith, or Edith Ethel, who were born c1881. I did make a start but no luck at the moment. There is one thing that is certain, she will have died by now.
Helig.
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Blimey that's some commitment!
Have you tried Family Search? The reason why I suggest this is the whereas the NZ BDM site seems to need a surname as a mantatory field, the family search seems to process from the forename(s) alone. I limited what I put in to the site the forenames and birth in 1881 and it produced some results.
You would need a user name and p/w but its free. I've had more success personally on family search than any of the pay sites that I used to subscribe to. If you do decide to do it once you've entered their site(make sure its family search) you could try what I did and just put this in google "family search new zealand deaths" and then select.:- I wish you and your cousin well!
New Zealand, Civil Records Indexes, 1800-1966
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I agree Hugo suggestion re a walk..now it's started to cheer up a bit ....weather wise!!
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Hello Rhuddlan,
Thank you for that suggestion. I will try it and see if there is anything that resembles EEK. I used to look on Family Search back in the dark ages when I started my genealogy. It was one of the few sites online and had quite a bit of data available. The main problem with it was that much of the stuff was inaccurate. Since Ancestry etc came on the scene, I haven't used it at all.
The reason why my cousin in NZ was spending so much time on the search for EEK was due to another descendant of hers over there being very upset at not knowing what happened to her after 1908. This person was my cousin's aunt and she desperately wanted to know where EEK got to.
There is nothing to suggest she returned to the UK, unless she changed her name and we cannot identify her because of that.
Helig.
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I'm not surprised that your cousin has had so much difficulty in tracing Edith Ethel Kerridge. I've tried different ways but had different answers too and I didn't realise that there were so many Kerridges about
What is good though is that women appeared on the electoral rolls in Australia and New Zealand much earlier than in the UK.
There is an Edith Kerridge in the New Zealand Electoral Roll in 1911 and then another Edith Kerridge appears in 1913 in the Australia Electoral Rolls at Camperdown, New South Wales, Australia
Because I don't subscribe to Find my Past I couldn't see any more info but I'm sure that your cousin has seen these already and ruled them out
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for your interest.
The Kerridge name is most common in Suffolk and Norfolk.
Yes, the people with the name of Edith Ethel Kerridge in electoral rolls etc have all been eliminated. My cousin thinks she changed her name and that is why it has been impossible to trace what happened to her. I wonder if she altered her age the same as her mother.
I was surprised at how many people by the name of Kerridge were living in New Zealand.
Helig
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There is an addition to Albert Abraham Kerridge's grave stone 'Amelia Anna Died February 9th 1947 Aged 75 years United in Peace Perfect Peace'. The friends of St Agnes cemetery have made a very good job of cleaning up the cross & it's in good condition, but the concrete curbs have cracked, given that it's over 72 years since Amelia was buried it has done very well. What I did discover was the marble cross was supplied by my Great Grandfather Hugh Hughes of H Hughes & Son Monumental Masons Llandudno Junction ;D
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Just as a matter of interest Meleri, where was your Gt Grandfather born?
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Hello Meleri,
Thank you for the report on the grave of my gt grandmother, Amelia Kerridge (nee Frooms). The last time I visited it, the overgrowth was very high and dense. It is good to hear that it has been cleared and the monument is still in reasonably good condition. That says a lot for your gt grandfather's work. Small world isn't it?
I have posted details of Amelia previously. She had The Alexandra Hotel in Llandudno for some years. I wish I could have met her as she had a fascinating life from birth in Shoreditch/Hoxton, then Brighton and Hove, Leamington Spa and on to North Wales in the early 1900s. She used to stay in the hotel at the top of the Great Orme for a fortnight once a year as she claimed the air did her chest good.
This is a photo of her taken in Llandudno in the 1940s.
Helig
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My ancestors used to live at Railway Cottage.
When she was young, my great grandmother, Elizabeth, was nicknamed Lizzie Crossing because she used to help open and close the crossing gates before Maesdu Bridge was built.
The nickname was handed down with my grandfather in Tywyn caled Joe Crossing as well as some of my uncles before subsequently disappearing.
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I am pleased you had a separate post on the Board for the Hughes family. It is amazing to find that you have ancestors in common.
I have phoned Colwyn bay Crematorium and established:
It opened in 1958.
She checked the burial registers to see if she could find Elizabeth Kerridge but there was no trace of her.
She suggested EK might have been buried in the church ground at St Tudno. She said the church would be able to assist with their records. Other possibilities are Llanrhos, or St George's. The Llandudno Parish people might be able to help with records for those.
The burial record should still be in Conwy Archives however.
The mystery continues.
Helig.
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Sorry for hijacking your post for a while Helig but I'm glad that Ian has sorted it out now.
In St Tudno's Church it has two cemeteries, the older one is near the church and is enclosed by the wall, belongs to the Church while the other is the municipal one.
The Church will have the records of burials at the old cemetery but CCBC should have the records for the other.
As a rule of thumb people living in Clement Avenue would be buried in St Tudno's The Archives only have records of graves with headstones and have no record of Elizabeth.
I've had a look at the Burial Indexes for Dolwyddelan, Betws Y coed , Llanrhos and St Tudno's without seeing anything for Elizabeth or Gertrude. The records must be available somewhere but the question is where?
I'll make enquiries when I'm next in the Archives but I've already checked the Billion graves index and there is no trace there either.
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Thanks, Hugo.
I had forgotten that St George's had a burial ground. Is it possible she could have been buried there? It would have been very close to Clement Ave. My parents married in St George's and I think there are some other family connections with that church.
I will try Llandudno Parish to see where the records for their cemetery in St Tudno are held. My grandparents are buried there and I think their grave is in the area attached to St Tudon, not the municipal one.
I have tried to send a message to Llandudno Parish via their website but this has failed. Does anyone know how to contact them?
Helig.
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You are welcome Helig
St George's Church does have a cemetery, but all the graves were taken up by the late 1800's about 10 years after the Church was built so Elizabeth won't be buried there. I will check however when I go to the Archives
I can't remember who your Grandparents were but I did take some photos of the grave and if I remember correctly the grave is near the Church and on its eastern side
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Thank you, Hugo.
My grandparents were Albert Edward Ackerley, died 1946, and Florence Frances May Kerridge, died 1983. They are buried quite close to the church.
Helig.
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Thank you, Hugo.
My grandparents were Albert Edward Ackerley, died 1946, and Florence Frances May Kerridge, died 1983. They are buried quite close to the church.
Helig.
Helig, there is no one by those names listed on the St Tudno's Burial Index. If they had a headstone then they would have been listed, or should have been
I looked through the 1947 NWWN and there is no obituary notice for Elizabeth in it. The Archive lady had a look in the municipal records that they have on the computer but she was not listed there either. At the moment Elizabeth remains a mystery
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Hello Hugo,
There was a headstone on their grave the last time I was up at St Tudno's church. It would be under Albert Edward Ackerley, it was re-engraved when my grandmother died to include her name and details.
When I spoke to a very helpful lady in Colwyn Bay Crematorium she said that the council keep records for the municipal cemetery at St Tudno but the Church of Wales hold them for their burial ground. That is why I tried to contact the Llandudno Parish to enquire how I can find out about their records for St Tudno. It is possible that Elizabeth went into one of the family graves there.
Helig.
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Hi Helig,
I did look at the names Ackerley and Kerridge but there was no entry for either person. I don't know the date that the records were compiled so there could be an error on the Index or a possibility that the headstone had been removed for the addition of Florence's name.
In the index the kerridge grave did not have the name of Nellie down, although I have seen her name on the base of the cross, so whenever I go up there next I'll have a look to see who else is named on the grave
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There is something rather odd about this as when I looked on Find My Past for the burial of Albert Edward & Florence it stated they were buried at St Tudno's, but when you click on the option to view the Headstone on the Billion Graves site it's stating they are buried at Llanrhos ??There is a photograph of the headstone but there are only Albert Edward died 21st August 1946 age 55 & Florence Frances died 27th April 1983 age 82, no other member of the family mentioned.
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Meleri, have you got a photo of the headstone as it may be possible to see where the grave really is?
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Sorry Hugo but it only shows the actual headstone. If you want a look it's on the Billiongraves website just put the names, area & year of death in & it will come up, anyone can use the site it's free.
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Thanks Meleri, I've seen it now and saved the picture but the angle of the photo doesn't give me any idea of exactly where it is.
Helig, you say that the headstone is near the Church in St Tudno's, have you actually seen it there? The date of death seems quite recent for it to be in the old Cemetery. Was it possible that the grave was near the building in the new Cemetery that does look a bit like a Church or Chapel?
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I found the article that Meleri was referring to and also a map of the location of the grave. The map is poor but it definitely is St Tudno's but it shows the grave as south of the Chapel but I can't tell from the sketchy image if the grave is south of the Chapel in the new Cemetery or south of the Church in the old Cemetery.
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Hello Hugo and Meleri,
Yes, the headstone has been on the grave since 1946. It was re-engraved in 1983 after my grandmother died and she was buried there as well. It is a double plot. From memory, I think it was near the chapel in the old cemetery. I think it is close to the area where they hold the outdoor services in the summer months. I used to visit it every time I walked on the Orme.
I have seen the photo of the gravestone on Billion Dollar Graves and this is the right one. They have transcribed the details incorrectly.
Helig
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It's a strange one Helig, I double checked the St Tudno's Church Burial Index and there was no trace of Albert or Florence. I then checked the St Tudno's own webside and again it said that there is no monument for them and yet there is a photo of it on Billion Graves website and the location is the Great Orme
I'll have to put on my walking boots when we get a fine day and have a look around the grave yard. The headstone is quite distinguished so it should be easy (ish) to find. It won't be this weekend though as the town will be packed so I'll stay put and enjoy the nice weather that they have forecast
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Thank you, Hugo.
It makes me wonder if the records are accurate as it looks as though there are people missing from them. That could be the explanation for being unable to find Elizabeth Kerridge and Gertrude Frances Kerridge. In the past, in other cases, I have asked for the grave plans for the church in question. These show where people are buried, including those who don't have a headstone. These are usually kept by one of the church officers. I don't know whether all churches keep them. In the case of St Tudno's, I imagine there would have been people buried up there years ago in the days when no records were kept.
I expect the town will be busy if the weather forecast is accurate. We haven't had rain here for some time. It is nice to be able to go out without taking an umbrella.
Helig.
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I drove up the Great Orme on Thursday and had a look around the old Cemetery and although I could find the grave with the cross and took some photos of it showing all the names on the grave, I could not find the grave for Albert and Florence
That doesn't mean that the grave is not there it just means that I couldn't find it from the ones I looked at. The directions on Billion graves were poor but the cemetery isn't that big anyway so I looked around all of the plots there but not all the individual graves.
One thing that I did notice was that there are dozens of Rabbits living there and as a result a lot of graves are subsiding. Another feature I noticed was the grass in the cemetery, it's all very close cropped and unlike the grass in the photo of the headstone
When did you last see the grave?
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for your efforts in searching for this grave.
I last saw it in 2014. Since then I have lived some distance away and it hasn't been possible to visit Llandudno. By the sound of it I need to pay a visit now.
I know that the council were taking down some headstones they considered to be dangerous. The last time I saw it all was well. It is situated close to the path.
The goats tended to be a nuisance over the years. It was hopeless putting flowers on the grave as they didn't last 5 minutes. We did leave some years ago and as we turned to look back on leaving the cemetery, we saw goats devouring the flowers we had left.
Helig.
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If you could give some indication of where the grave was in relation to the Church eg North, south west or east I'll have a look as soon as this old back of mine is sorted out
Tellytubby and I are due for a walk up there and when we do go we'll have a more organised search and post any photos if my computer is working by then
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for your kind offer. Don't worry, there is no rush for this.
I shall have to get my thinking cap on to give you more idea of where it is located. It was easy enough for me to find when I was up there. Giving someone directions is another matter.
Helig
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Hi Helig
Don't worry about being too specific as the cemetery isn't that big anyway. The grave with the cross is to the east of the old Church and not too far away from the building
The other headstone is upright and looks like it is made of slate so it shouldn't be too hard to find as most of the others headstones appear to be of various types of stone
I'll have another look sometime and will try and find something about Elizabeth if I can
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Thank you, Hugo. I hope your back has improved and you are not in pain.
I am not very good with directions, east, south, west etc. My memory is that the grave was on the left side of the church as you are looking towards the Orme. It was close to the path that runs along there.
See the second photo of St Tudno on this site and to the left of the area where the seats are shown.
http://www.greatorme.org.uk/sainttudno.html (http://www.greatorme.org.uk/sainttudno.html)
I hope my memory serves me well!
Helig
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Thanks Helig, that will help. The second photo is of the pulpit on the southern side of the Church and where they have the open air services in the Summer ( weather permitting of course)
I'll let you know if I can find it
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I was at the Archives yesterday and the Archivist found the grave of Albert and Florence Ackerley at St Tudno's Cemetery. It is not by the Church or in the Church graveyard but is in the municipal part of the newer Cemetery.
It was a nice day so I drove up the Great Orme and finding the grave was easy after seeing the map of the Cemetery. I've taken a few photos and will post them as soon as my laptop is repaired
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Thank you, Hugo. Please accept my apologies for the memory lapse as to the location of the grave. I was usually admiring the view when I was up there.
Helig.
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No need to apologize Helig at least I've found it and know why it wasn't on the Burial Index for the Church. I'll post the photos when my computer is sorted out
As soon as I am able to I'll have a look for Elizabeth again but I don't know when that will be. My back has gone worse and I won't be playing golf again and at present I have difficulty even walking but hopefully the physio on Thursday .may help
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Don't worry Hugo, there is no rush.
I am sorry to hear your back is worse. It sounds the same as I was having recently. I was struggling to walk and got stuck when I was out a couple of times. It has improved now, thank goodness. I hope you have some good results with the physiotherapist.
Helig.
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Hi Helig,
the good news for me is the laptop has been repaired but the bad news is that I've lost everything that was on it, photos and all. So there is a lesson for me that I should have backed up my work on line
My back is still bad and I'm unable to walk without being in pain so no golf ever and no walks in the immediate future either. I'm just glad that the laptop is back in action and I can see what is going on around here
I'm sorry that you had your problems with your back hope that it is back to normal now
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Hi Helig, here are a few of the photos I took at St Tudno's Cemetery. The first one is of the base of the grave with the cross that is in the old Cemetery. It would appear that there are 4 people buried in the grave
The 2nd and 3rd photos are of the grave in the council run Cemetery. In the 3rd photo the grave is the nearest slate headstone, it just gives you an idea of it's location in the Cemetery
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Thank you, Hugo. It looks as though you had a lovely day on the Orme. I used to love walking up there, the views were gorgeous.
Helig
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While I was in the Archives today I asked the lady there if she had any records of Elizabeth and she did have a good look on the computer but nothing turned up.
She did suggest contacting the Crem at Colwyn Bay but I think that you have already had a go at that and they couldn't help either.
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Helig, I had a look at this site and put in Elizabeth Kerridge 1947 and 4 examples came up. I did not go into it any further as there was a nominal charge of £2.00 or £4.00 depending on which example you view'
With all your searching you have probably seen them all before but I'll list them just in case you haven't
1 headstone in a collection recorded with the name Kerridge location Highlands
4 " ditto " Norfolk
1 ditto " Norfolk
1 ditto " Norfolk
https://www.deceasedonline.com/ (https://www.deceasedonline.com/)
https://www.deceasedonline.com/ (https://www.deceasedonline.com/)
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Thank you, Hugo.
These wouldn't relate to the Elizabeth Kerridge in my tree. The Kerridge family originate from Norfolk and Suffolk, so there are loads of them in those counties. The one in the Highlands is a mystery. I have a Kerridge contact who has a massive database on the family and most of the Kerridges in the UK and abroad. I can ask him about this one. He has been asked about Elizabeth Kerridge but doesn't have her burial details. He didn't have her death information until we found her death in Llandudno.
There is one possibility that I haven't pursued and that is whether she was buried by her family who were called Hayler. They come from Sussex and I did wonder if she was buried somewhere there. The other family members doubt that but it seems we have drawn a blank in North Wales.
Helig
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It's strange Helig that nothing is turning up for Elizabeth. There must be some type of paper trail to follow because her death was recorded in the Conwy Registration District in the first place and then you would think that if her body was removed and taken out of the area there must have been some documentation completed.
I don't know what the procedure would have been in those type of cases, if I ever see Em the Crem in Llandudno I'll ask him, last I heard was that he was also doing research into his own family but was having some difficulty too
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Hugo,
Sadly Em the Crem passed away a while ago. Very quiet funeral
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I'm sorry to hear that Cambrian and thanks for posting that info. I knew him when I was a teenager in Llandudno and didn't see him very often over the years afterwards and that was usually in the Crem but he'd always have time for a short chat
One of the ladies in the retirement group knew that Emlyn was researching his family tree in the Holyhead area and was asking me if I could help but unfortunately I wasn't able to due to other things going on.
They say as you get older that time flies past but I didn't realise just how long ago it was, it's sad to hear of another good one going.
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Sorry to hear about Emlyn. In the early 90s he lived a few doors down from my mother and father and arranged both their funerals.
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Hi Helig, I think that I mentioned before, that my DNA was tested by My Heritage in Houston Texas and as a result I've had contacts from people from all over the world, the latest being this week from Norway
Anyway the reason I'm posting this is because of a couple of things. A guy I know is going to do a DNA test through Ancestry and wants to trace his relatives in Poland who he knows nothing about, The other thing was that in the Daily Mirror today it had an article about a couple of women, one searching for her biological father as the man who brought her up was not her natural father and the other was searching for her biological father who happened to be an anonymous sperm donor.
They were both able to trace their father but only one of them had a happy ending
On a separate matter but on the same DNA theme I've just read in the world news about the murder of an Isdal woman in Death Valley near Bergen Norway. She was murdered in 1970 and everything possible was done to hide her identity. New clues have emerged that may help to solve the mystery. The article is fascinating to read but I'm convinced that DNA would help to bring the solving of this mystery nearer.
This link is worth reading
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48736937 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-48736937)
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for this. The report on the Isdal woman is a very interesting read. I agree that DNA would help solve the mystery but it sounds to me as though there are people who don't want to solve it. The episode as described reminds me of the death of Dr David Kelly.
I must get a DNA test as I know they are making advances all the time. It sounds as though your results have enabled you to get in touch with people from all over the world.
I know that there are people in New Zealand who descend from Edith Ethel Kerridge who have had DNA tests. They were hoping to make contact with other descendants of hers but as far as I know, they only came up with me via other methods.
Helig
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It's a very intriguing mystery about that Isdal woman who was murdered in Norway in 1970. They did everything possible to hide her identity but DNA was not discovered then but with the progress made in recent times they may be nearer the answer. That is providing they get the cooperation of the powers that be.
It will be interesting to see how they get on with their search
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Helig, I visited the Conwy Archives today and had another look at the 1947 copies of the Llandudno Advertiser just in case I had missed something on my previous visits. Unfortunately there was no entry for an obituary for Elizabeth Kerridge ( or Hayler ) and the lady at the archives had a good search too but nothing has appeared for her so it's still a mystery
I saw the obituary notice for Amelia in the paper dated 15th Feb 1947 and it said that she died on the Sunday ( that would be 8th Feb 1947 ) but that photo is already on here somewhere.
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Hello Hugo,
Thank you for your time and trouble over this. That line of the family seem to be full of mysteries and it looks as though they won't be solved now. The people who would have known about these matters have all been dead for some time now. We shall never know by the look of it.
Helig.
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It occurred to me afterwards that Elizabeth Kerridge isn't the only member of that family who died in North Wales and for whom it isn't possible to find a burial. One of her daughters, Gertrude Frances Kerridge, died in Dolwyddelan in 1913. I have tried to establish where she is buried and once again, have met with being unable to trace this place. It is strange that both mother and daughter died in North Wales yet no burials can be found there.
Gertrude Frances Kerridge was proprietress of The Gwydr Hotel, Dolwyddelan, when she died there on 12/01/1913. At that time her aunt and uncle, my gt grandparents, were around and I should have thought they would take care of the arrangements. When Elizabeth Kerridge died in 1947 it was bad year for the family as Amelia Kerridge, her sister in law, died in February 1947. My grandfather died in 1946, so my grandmother would have been left having to cope with the deaths of her husband and mother.
I don't know of anyone else who would have been involved at that time. The fact that the burials for the two of them cannot be located makes me wonder if they were buried elsewhere.
Helig
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I can understand your frustration Helig as I've made numerous searches online and with Welsh newspapers as well as visits to the Archives but can't find anything about Elizabeth or Gertrude.
I saw on Roots Chat someone making a similar search as the one you have been making, albeit using a different name and they couldn't get the answer they were looking for.
The answer is out there somewhere but where exactly? ?{}?