Three Towns Forum

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: jom on April 03, 2017, 12:11:19 am

Title: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 03, 2017, 12:11:19 am
I have kindly acquired the attached photo of Susannah (Jones) OWEN Headstone.
I believe I have deciphered part of it i.e.
"In loving memory of Susannah the beloved wife of John Owen Gogarth Llandudno who died March 2nd 1875 aged 52 years"
It's the next part with which, I am having some trouble.  I think it reads
"Also Jane the beloved wife of William Moran Chester Road Flint who died (28?) April (1884?) aged 56 years"

Firstly:- Any other suggestions for what is actually written
Secondly:- I know nothing of Jane or William Moran
A Jane Moran died Jun Qtr West Derby Age 56 (Vol 8b Page 202)  and is the only one I can sensibly find.
I can't find a William and Jane Moran anywhere as a couple including marriages.

The only closely related Janes to Susannah I have, are
1. Her sister of whom I know nothing except parents are Moses and Elinor JONES and Jane was born Llangystennin abt 1833
2. Her daughter Elizabeth Jane bn 1863 Gogarth, Llandudno but married John Roberts and died 1948 aged 85!
3. Susannah's husband John Owen had a half sister Jane bn abt 1843 (parents John and Alice) but she married Hugh Lester

My question is IF i have read the headstone correctly... who on earth are Jane and William and why was Jane buried with Susannah or at least put on the same headstone

I would welcome some ideas re this mystery
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2017, 07:35:54 am
Hi Jom, hope that you are keeping well and I can see that you are still searching on your family tree.    First of all the Conwy Archives have burial indexes of most of the local Cemeteries and Archivists went around these Cemetries and recorded everything that was on the headstone.
I have a coffee morning in Llandudno tomorrow and had planned to go to the Archives anyway so I will look up that headstone and let you know what is on it.

Secondly, Moses and Eleanor Jones,   I remember doing a search and we established that a Moses Jones was buried in Gyffin in the 1800's but I've a vague memory that another Moses Jones was buried in the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden which was in the Parish of Llangystennin.
I can't tell you anything at the moment except that:-
2)  Elizabeth Jane bn 1863 Gogarth  Llandudno  means that she was born on the Great Orme.
3)   Hugh Lester was from a well known local family and  if my memory is correct had some connection with the copper mines on the Great Orme
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 03, 2017, 08:31:20 am
Hi Hugo.. yes thanks.. keeping well. DO hope you and yours are too. You have a very good memory.  I don't have my research to hand having moved house and in temporary accommodation, so not all is unpacked.  Moses Jones however was I think from Llangystennin in THIS branch BUT another branch has  a Moses JONES and Anne (I think was his wife) in Gyffin as you rightly say. The Gyffin Moses' son Hugh was at Adwy Rhydd. It's Hugh whose grave you found at the baptist cemetery. The 2 Jones families merge after another generation

The look up would be most welcome if convenient but I'm more curious as to who "Jane Moran" was and a theory as to why sharing the same headstone. First to confirm that's what's engraved naturally.

I did suspect the Lester family were prominent/ eminent. I've come across a number of them in my research.  I think Elizabeth's husband was a master mariner if memory serves
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Bri Roberts on April 03, 2017, 09:40:19 am
I knew Max Lester during the sixties.

I have seen his grave up on the Great Orme.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2017, 09:46:16 am
Hi Jom,  I'm glad to hear that you are ok as we are over here.    Tomorrow I'll go to the Archives and copy the inscription from the headstone and I'll also look for the Moses Jones who I believe is buried in the Baptist Cemetery at Glanwydden and see what that inscription says.
Your other Moses Hones (Hugh's father) was buried in Gyffin but I've never been able to find his grave.   I remember finding Hugh's grave in the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden and it was like a jungle then but the last time I was there someone had been tidying up the place.
I'll post what I find on here tomorrow but if I see anything else in the meantime then I'll put it on here.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 03, 2017, 09:49:55 am
That'd be wonderful.. thank you.  I know you did a bit of tidying in the cemetery too.  ££$ $thanx$
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2017, 09:56:18 am
You're welcome Jom, I've just read an extract from Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"   and at pg 171  he mentions Roger Lester who lived at Bodnant  (Cwlach Street)  and it said that both Roger and his son enjoyed great success in the mines. 
Bodnant is opposite Caersalem Chapel and is a very impressive building even now, but in those days before 1850 it must have been very grand
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 03, 2017, 10:48:06 am
I'll have to dig out some papers and my copy of the book and look at it all  ;D $good$
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Cambrian on April 03, 2017, 01:37:45 pm
If it helps, a Jane Moran was born in the Flint Sub-District in 1859 when your Jane would have been 31 years old. Possibly a daughter ??
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2017, 04:24:39 pm
Just a couple of bits of info from that same book:-

Pg 154      Had an Elizabeth Lester of Ty Coch in it saying that she was the only Llandudno investor in the new mines of  Penymynydd, Pyllau and Maesyfachrell and she had a holding of 10% of the stock.      Ty Coch was once a farm and didn't you have another descendant called Edward Owen who lived there?

pg 192   relates to squatters on the morfa
What I found interesting was the first one, Jane Jones widow, was head of the family.  She was born in Rowen and her deceased husband was Joseph Jones.  Her eldest 3 children were born in Gyffin and one of them was called Hugh.
Now Hugh Jones of Ardwy Rhydd was also born in Gyffin and Hugh's father Moses was from Gyffin too and I was wondering if Moses and Joseph could have been brothers?
Just a thought but nothing to back that up
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 04, 2017, 09:22:25 am
I'll have to dig out my copy.  Thank you both for the snippets.  Just pulled a 12 hour shift so will look at all your ideas HOPEFULLY at the weekend.
Cheers
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2017, 04:15:55 pm
One interesting bit of news I heard at the coffee morning today was that Capel Einon in Glanwyddan has been sold and will be converted into a private residence.   The trustee also said that the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden will be tidied up which will be a really good thing.
Anyway I called at the Archives after the coffee morning and this is the full inscription on the headstone in the photo at grave No D035:-

In  loving memory of  Susannah  the beloved wife of  John Owen Gogarth Llandudno  who died March 2nd 1875  aged 52 years  also Jane   the beloved wife of William Moran Chester Road Flint  who died April 28th 1880 aged 56 years
        "Thy will be done"

Now the strange thing here is that there is no mention of the death of John Owen or William Moran on this headstone so perhaps they are not buried with their wives?

Now I did look at the Burial Record for Capel Einon and there was a Moses Jones buried there as I thought but I don't think that he was your relative.    The inscription on the grave was written in Welsh but the English translation is as follows:-

In memory of Elizabeth daughter of Moses and Maria Jones  Y Bwlch she died January 4th 1856 aged 3 years.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2017, 04:41:51 pm
In the Burial Index for St Tudno's Church there were many of the Lester Family listed and although I have made a note of the grave numbers I'll just list the names for you:-
Bertha, Dorothy Sara Ann, Elizabeth, Ethel Maude, Hugh, Jack, James, Jane, John Owen, Margaret, Richard, Robert, Roger, Roger Hugh, William and William Herbert.

As your interest was in Hugh Lester I have listed the inscription shown on the headstone at grave No G220:-
In loving memory of Hugh Lester who died January 22nd 1900 aged 64 years, Also Jane the beloved wife of the above who departed this life September 1st 1902 aged 61 years. Also John Owen (Jack) the youngest and beloved son of the above who died September 25th 1902 aged 27 years. Also Roger Hugh the beloved son of the above who died September 30th 1917 aged 46 years.  Also Ethel Maude wife of the above Roger Lester died September 12th 1942.

The photo is of the house in Cwlach Street called Bodnant

Due to lack of time I did not look at No's 1 & 2 on your posting
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 05, 2017, 09:47:46 am
Thank you very much, Hugo.  I wasn't too far off track with my effort at transcribing then.  Does seem odd that John and William weren't apparently buried with their wives.

Thank you too for the LESTER info.  I know some of those are Jane and Hugh Lester's kids so I'll check out ancestry etc over the weekend and may be adding a relative or two.  Good to hear that the cemetery will be cared for again.

You're right about that Moses JONES too not being mine, but thanks for thinking of me and taking time to check it all out.  I believe my Moses died Mar 1858 and I have a copy of the burial record.  He was buried 5 Mar 1858 and the record is from the parish church Llangystennin.  Elinor I believe was buried 12 sep 1836 and I have that burial record too.  I don;t know Elinor's maiden name yet.

Thanks again everyone and great photo of Bodnant too.   will do some research at the weekend
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 05, 2017, 03:30:46 pm
There is a possible death of a William Moran in West Derby RD in the March quarter of 1887, aged 60 years. That puts his year of birth at c1818.

Jane's year of birth would be c1824 if she was aged 56 in 1880.

In Liverpool RD there is a marriage in the September quarter of 1850, William Moran and a Jane Collins. FreeBMD has a total of 8 marriages on that page and it isn't certain that William Moran married Jane Collins.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1850&end=1850&sq=3&eq=3&type=Marriages&vol=20&pgno=421&db=bmd_1489437828&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTQ5MTQwMTM2NjpmOGU2ZTdlNjg0OTRhZjVhMDQ0OGJiYTAyMmQ3MTk1M2NmNWYwN2Rk&searchdef=countyid%3Dall%26sq%3D1%26given%3Dwilliam%26db%3Dbmd_1489437828%26start%3D1845%26end%3D1850%26type%3DMarriages%26s_given%3Djane%26eq%3D4%26surname%3Dmoran&action=Find (https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1850&end=1850&sq=3&eq=3&type=Marriages&vol=20&pgno=421&db=bmd_1489437828&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTQ5MTQwMTM2NjpmOGU2ZTdlNjg0OTRhZjVhMDQ0OGJiYTAyMmQ3MTk1M2NmNWYwN2Rk&searchdef=countyid%3Dall%26sq%3D1%26given%3Dwilliam%26db%3Dbmd_1489437828%26start%3D1845%26end%3D1850%26type%3DMarriages%26s_given%3Djane%26eq%3D4%26surname%3Dmoran&action=Find)

There are two other marriages shown in Liverpool RD as follows:

December quarter 1854, William Moran, possibly to Jane Smith.

September quarter 1856, William Moran, query to Jane Duncan.

I cannot find a William and Jane Moran in the census returns.

The name of Moran appears to be of Irish origins, could they have come over to Liverpool as many Irish families did in those days?

Helig.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 07, 2017, 06:15:36 am
Many thanks Helig.  Will check them out over the weekend. I don't have any Moran's in my tree currently so what on earth the connection is .....
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 07, 2017, 04:07:17 pm
No, I did wonder if Jane was the sister of Susannah but that didn't work out.

It seems strange for Jane to be buried on the Great Orme if she was from Flint. Also, strange that she wasn't buried with her husband, the same as Susannah. There would probably be some sort of family connection but quite what is baffling me.

Helig
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 07, 2017, 10:28:07 pm
 ??? Me too. Start my further investigations today with luck.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 10, 2017, 02:21:54 pm
You have probably investigated Jane  the sister of Susannah who was born 1833 in Llangystenin but I tried to find her on Ancestry in the Library.     
Although Census records were carried out from 1801 on wards the first one online is 1841 so I had a look at that.
Living at Maes in Llangystenin were Moses Jones  aged 45 and a quarry man. Also there were Robert aged 13,  Elias aged 11 and Jane aged 8.
There was no mention of Elinor Jones who may have died after 1833 and before 1841.    The death registers came into force in 1837 and I did find an Elinor Jones who died in the Conway Registration District and her death was recorded in the July to Sept 1837 quarter.
The actual death Registers for Llangystenin may be in the Conwy Archives and should confirm if this Elinor lived at Maes.
The 1851 Census shows the same 4 people still living at Maes.  Jane was 18 then and the Census records her "still at home"
In the 1861 Census a Jane Jones from Llangystenin aged 28 is a domestic servant and living at Bryn Y Gwynt  in the district of Bodnant Eglwysbach with Evan Jones a farmer and his wife and children
I couldn't find any trace of her in the 1871 Census though.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 12, 2017, 11:04:14 am
Following on from Hugo's find, I searched for Jane Jones and family in the later census returns. In the 1851 census the family are living in Maes, Llangystenin, Jane is shown as aged 18 and "Living at home". The others in the household include Moses, widower, age 57, Quarryman, Robert, son, age 24, Elias, age 21, both Quarrymen. In the next house there is a John Owens, age 29, Miner, born Llandudno. He is married and his wife is Susannah Owens, age 27, born Llangystenin. They have a son, John, age 1.

Helig.

Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 12, 2017, 02:00:04 pm
Helig,   I forgot to make a note of the properties nearby when I looked at the 1841 Census, have you got a note of the names of those properties as I would be interested to know where  Maes is or was.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 12, 2017, 07:28:19 pm
Hi,
     I'm not sure if this helps but I thought I would write it anyway.
Rumours passed down from Elizabeth Jane's family, (Susannah's daughter) say that Uncle Will, Flint sold his land to Courtaulds factory. Also, in the 1930's or 40's two ladies used to come to stay with Elizabeth Jane from that direction and called her Aunty Liz but nobody knows who they are. Later in the 1950's or 60's Elizabeth Jane's daughter and granddaughter Bessie and Faith used to visit a lady of about 100 years old near Faith's home which was in Holywell, then Rhuddlan which are both in the direction of Flint, from all the rest of the family. Faith knew she was related but didn't know how.
     Hope this may help and I'll try digging a bit more.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 13, 2017, 12:26:47 am
Hi,
     Just an idea, could the Moran be Morgan. I found a marriage in the Caernarvonshire records, in 1858 between Jane Jones and William Morgan.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 13, 2017, 06:48:42 am
Dear Hugo, Helig and Emma Silk
Thank you VERY much for your investigations and sorry I haven't replied sooner.  Life has taken over here at the moment and didn't get much done last weekend.  This weekend however we have cyclone cook on the way plus Easter so there may be an opportunity to do some research... as long as I have internet, which we didn't yesterday.  I'll go through your findings, suggestions and comments and see what I have and where it leads.  I did manage a wee bit the other day but was based around the MORAN name now I have date of death for Jane but didn't really gey anywhere in the time I had.

Many thanks again and hope to sort things out a bit whist hunkering down for the storm.

Regards

Jom
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 13, 2017, 11:28:37 am
Hello Hugo,

The properties nearby in the 1851 census are as follows:

Preceding Maes on the census, Pen y Bont and Ffordd. The occupants were the household of Robert Williams in Pen y Bont and of Hugh Williams in Ffordd.

The next household after Moses Jones in Maes, is shown as living in Maes again, this time it is John Owens and family. The properties after that are Waen Fynydd, occupant Elinor Roberts and household, then Bwlch Glas, occupied by John Evans and family.

In the 1841 census, Moses Jones is living in Maes but the surrounding houses are different. These are:

preceding Maes, Garth, occupied by Robert Williams, Farmer, then Twullyog (not sure of spelling) occupied by Elias Roberts and family.

After Maes, Ty Gefn, occupied by Robert Roberts and family, Fron, occupied by Hugh Williams, Farmer, then Ffordd, occupied by Evan Williams, Farmer.

I take it that both Moses Jones and family and John Owens and family lived in Maes but they are shown as two separate households.

Helig.

Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 13, 2017, 12:54:05 pm
Thanks very much for that Helig, it's been really helpful.    The Census records are done in some type of order but not necessarily the same order for each Census.
Some of the names I am familiar with and they have not changed over the years.    The word Maes means field in English so it's not unusual for the two properties to be so named.
Quite often you'll see the same name in a place such as for example Pen Y Bryn and it will have either Isaf or Uchaf after the name and it just donates lower or higher.
I'll look again for the exact location of Maes now that you have pointed me in the right direction.     $good$
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 13, 2017, 03:19:39 pm
I've just had a look at a map  of the area in the late 1800's and although I can't pinpoint Maes from the map I have a rough idea where it was.
There were two Pen Y Bonts in the Parish of Llangystenin and I think that it was in Pabo or Marl ( now part of Llandudno Junction.)
Pen Y Bont and Waen Fynydd are still there so Maes was somewhere in between the two.   
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 14, 2017, 12:02:43 am
Hello all
Just starting some investigating etc and in reply

1. Elinor wife of Moses JONES died 1836.  I have her burial record and was noted as being of Maes
2. Many thanks for the 1861 Census entry for Jane JONES.  Looks a likely candidate for Susannah's sister certainly.  I didn't have that.  It has led me to ...
3. 1871 census a William and Jane ROBERTS living in Egwlys Rho, a famer.  Residing with 2 neices (ROBERTS and an Ellin JONES).  No noted offspring of their own.  There are several Jane JONES and William ROBERTS marriages between 1861 and 1871 so no help there. 
1881 census suggests they might be at Penlau? Llangystenin ... IF it's the same couple (A farmer) but with 2 daughters Charlotte 18 and Mary Ann 16.  Not convinced it's the sane household.  There are only 1 or 2 Janes bn 1833/34 Llangystenin and that was my main checking point
4. EmmaSilk - I don't have a brother William for Susannah, do you. The only siblings I have are Robert, Edward, Elias and Jane.  Have you any others?  I do of course have a half brother (bn abt 1828) for John, Susannah's husband so would still be Elizabeth Jane's Uncle.  I only have record of him up to 1841 as a copper miner on the Morfa (Son of John and Alice OWEN who went on to own the Prince of Wales)

Will carry on the search ........
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 14, 2017, 02:35:25 am
Hi EmmaSilk

I have just been looking at your ancestry tree and note you have a surname for Elinor (Ellinor) wife of Moses JONES.  How have you come by that and her previous marriage that you have listed to David MAURICE.  I have't found anything as yet to say who she was other than the wife of Moses!!!!!  Helpp please?????
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 16, 2017, 02:58:44 pm
     I couldn't find a local marriage for Moses but I found Elinor married to David Maurice in the Cearnarvonshire records 24th December, 1814. Then Elinor Maurice married to Moses in the Denbighshire records, 19th January, 1822 which would fit with Susannah's birth. I don.t know if they are correct as I haven't researched anymore. I'm not sure if I have a copy as I haven't got my papers with me. I used to be able to check all local records on genes reunited but for some reason that has stopped so I'm looking into why as it was really useful for baptisms, weddings and burials. I have Robert, Edward, Elias and Jane as Susannah's brothers and sisters. I thought this Jane might be married to William Moran which would make sense why it's on the head stone. I assume William Moran will be buried Flint way. The only wedding I could find in Llangwstennin was between Jane and William Morgan on 26th March, 1858 but other people have her married to somebody else so again not sure. I found a baptism for Moses 19th April, 1794 and one for an older brother Moses who died as a baby. I also found burial records for them both, 28th April, 1793 and 5th March, 1858. I think Elinor died in1836 which would explain her not on the 1841 census records. When I get back to my papers I'll have a look and then try and post them on here. Hope this helps xx
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 16, 2017, 03:15:35 pm
Hi, I haven't got a half brother to John born in 1828, I have a William born 1828.  I have Mary, Owen, William, Thomas, Robert, Richard, Jane, Elizabeth and Alice. There definately was a William as he was mentioned in N W Chronicle 2nd March, 1872 picking mushrooms belonging to St.Georges Hotel. I haven't found the rest of this article. I only ever found a couple of their baptism records and not sure about Alice at all. I have some of their marriages which do tie in with the family. xx
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 21, 2017, 07:03:24 am
I was in the Archives yesterday and had a quick look at the Burial Index for Llangystennin Church but couldn't find an entry for Moses and Elinor Jones although I believe they are buried there.    The index only includes the graves with headstones though.
After Susannah died did John Owen remarry and get buried at St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme?

Just as a matter of future interest the Conwy Archives holds the following information on Llangystennin:-
Baptisms   from 1608  to 1934
Marriages     "     1608 to 1970
Burials          "     1608 to  1958
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 22, 2017, 04:10:31 am
Hi Emma and Hugo

Emma, Thank you for your email and attachments.   I have found Susannah's baptism which confirms your thoughts that Elinor (Elin), Moses wife was Elinor MAURICE, widow.  Thank you VERY much. 

Your William OWEN Bn 1828, I suspect IS John'ds half brother.  John was born to John OWEN and Ann EVANS illegitimately.  John senior then married Alice WILLIAMS and they had

Mary, Owen, William (1828), Thomas Robert, Richard, Jane, Elizabeth, Alice (John's John junior,s half brothers and sisters)

Hugo,  Thanks for your help to date.  John OWEN (Husband of Susannah) didn't remarry as far as I can tell.  I have his burial noted as Llandudno parish church 20 Jan 1891.  I have the burial record but no specifics on cemetery.  He died at Gas Works Cottages, Eglwys Rhos, Llandudno, Caernarvonshire on 16 Jan 1891
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2017, 07:23:34 am
I've only had a quick look at the Baptism record for Susannah and can see that her mother's name was written down as Elen not Elinor so I don't know which name is correct.
The Parish Church was St Tudno's and I did see an entry in the Burial Index for a John Owen of Gogarth but didn't make a note of the dates or anything else on it and will look properly again now that you have given dates of his burial.
I lived very near to Gas Works Cottage when I was a boy and remember a Harry Jones aka Harry Gas living there and he had a daughter called Sharon but didn't know them that well.   When I used to play in the gas works Harry would often chase after me but thankfully never caught me.
I can't make out the name of the abode at present but will have a better look at it later
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 22, 2017, 08:10:21 am
It's amazing!  Fancy that.  What was it like

Ellior was seemingly noted as Ellin in the earlier documents but Elinor latterly so not sure her true name presumably ellinor.  Emma Silk thinks she was ellinor williams who married david Maurice nr phwellhi.  I can't find anyone more likely but it seems odd that they moved a fair way in distance
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 22, 2017, 08:12:09 am
By the way... I reckoned it stated abode as llangwystenin
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2017, 09:39:09 am
The abode wasn't Llangystennin Jom and it was in the Parish of Llansanffraid Glan Conwy.      Welsh house names usually described the property or where they were located and I've had a look again at the abode but can't actually read it.
The first part I would say is Llongwaith   now in English it means Llong = ship    gwaith  = work  so I presume that it's a ship yard or works and I do know that Glan Conwy did have a small ship building place many years ago.
The rest of the name I just can'r read.
I'm guessing that Elin's name was Morris before she married John

Gas works cottage was a small stone cottage facing on to Maesdu Road but the building was in the Gas works and the whole works covered a large area in its time.      A very large gas tank was directly opposite the front so it didn't have nice views from the cottage.     It's going back nearly 60 years but I can remember them having a nice ornament in the window and thinking that they were very posh.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2017, 12:07:27 pm
Jom,  I've had a good look at the abode and you are probably correct with Llangwstennin.    It has been spelt in so many different ways but I was convinced that the first part of the name was Llong  but I think that I'm mistaken.
It seems that the name has been split in two because it didn't fit into the  box and the second part of the name is beneath it.
I still can't make out the bit that has been underlined though.
Sorry for the confusion I may have caused
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Cambrian on April 22, 2017, 01:09:37 pm
Hugo

Do you think it might be "Ph" which was an abbreviation used for "parish" - that would make sense in the context I think.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 22, 2017, 03:52:02 pm
I think that you are spot on there Cambrian, thanks very much for pointing that out.    The family did live in Maes in Llangystennin and I thought that because of the names like Bwlch Glas,  Waen Fynydd then Maes and Ffordd and Pen Y Bont that it was in Llandudno Junction and I think that one early map has a Maes Villa on the main road.
What are your thoughts on the location of Maes?
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Cambrian on April 22, 2017, 06:03:33 pm
Had check with the Inclosure Award Schedule for Llangwstenin and "Maes" is listed between "Fordd" and "Morfa Cottage".  This may give a clue.
The holding was 3 roods and 1 perch so more akin to a detached house and reasonably sized garden as opposed to a small-holding.
The owner was Thomas Peers Williams who owned quite a bit of property on the Creuddyn peninsula.

Hugo, I know you go to the archives fairly often.  They have copies of the plans drawn up for the Inclosure Awards so it may be fairly easy to locate "Maes" by reference to the plan and the schedule.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 22, 2017, 11:26:02 pm
I have also found 2 of Susannah's siblings who were baptised at the same church.  The first born was Elizabeth bp 1822 and the abode was noted as "Bryn = rhus", then Susannah and brother Robert noted as Llangystenin, the remaining siblings (younger) were baptised in Llangystenin abode Maes

Thanks for the info re the parish abbreviation too.  Very helpful
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 22, 2017, 11:29:25 pm
PS Hugo,  No apology needed  $good$  SO easy to misread that it's ALWAYS worth at LEAST 3 looks  :D
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 23, 2017, 08:33:19 am
I have also found 2 of Susannah's siblings who were baptised at the same church.  The first born was Elizabeth bp 1822 and the abode was noted as "Bryn = rhus", then Susannah and brother Robert noted as Llangystenin, the remaining siblings (younger) were baptised in Llangystenin abode Maes

Thanks for the info re the parish abbreviation too.  Very helpful

Bryn  Rhus could well be Bryn Rhys where there are still a number of old cottages.     It's uphill and at the top of Church Street in Glan Conwy and very near the Church where they would have been baptised.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 23, 2017, 10:38:04 am
This is a photo I took of St Ffraid's Church in Glan Conwy.      It was taken from Church Street and Bryn Rhys is on the same road but a little further uphill
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 23, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
Jom, if the put "British History" on Google then go into the site and enter Llanrhos in the box and click on.      Then you get two maps but click on O/S Map name 005/nw.
If you look in the top left hand corner you will see the Gasworks.  The entrance of Gasworks Cottage was on the main road ( now called Maesdu Road) but the rest of the building was inside the Gasworks.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 24, 2017, 05:54:56 am
Great photo Hugo, thank you.  Have you got some good weather or is this an old picture?  Thanks for mentally placing the residence and church for me too.  Many thanks for the OS map tip.  ANZAC Day here tomorrow so not at work.  Will have a little browse
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 24, 2017, 08:34:51 am
It's an old photo I took in June 2014 when I was finding things out for a member of the Davies family who lives in Australia.

That British  history online is a good way of finding properties on old maps
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 24, 2017, 12:15:17 pm
There is a Family Tree on ancestry which has this line. It shows Moses Jones married Elinor Williams in Glan Conwy on 19 January 1822. Elinor Williams died in 1836 in Llangystenin. It has Elinor born 1795 but no further information on this.

Moses Jones shown as born 28 April 1793, Llangystenin, died 5 March 1858, Llangystenin. Moses was the son of John Jones and Elizabeth.

I don't know if you already have this information, apologies if I have duplicated anything.

Helig.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 24, 2017, 02:29:31 pm
Thanks Helig for all that info you have provided, it's a bit spooky too, like Deja Vu.           I've copied a posting that I did on the 19th December 2016 when we were trying to help Mull with his request about Grace Ellen Jones and it came down to John and Elizabeth Jones from Llangystennin and we had run out of ideas by then

"I went to the Archives in Llandudno to have a look in the Marriage Registers to see if I could find the marriage of John and Elizabeth Jones. The custom was for the marriage to take place in the bride's home town so I had a look in the two Parish Registers for Caerhun, being the Parish for Llanbedr Y Cennin.     I couldn't find any record that would match the couple's details,"



There was one word on the Baptism record that I couldn't understand for Susannah Jones and it was olim.     It is either old Welsh or Latin but it meant the same as unwaith  (Eng. once) so in effect it is the equivalent of nee.
That makes another puzzle because Elen Jones nee Morris had previously been married to David Maurice in 1814 according to Emma but could that have been David Morris which after all is a Welsh name?
Perhaps Elinor Williams was her maiden name?


Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 24, 2017, 10:59:57 pm
Hi Helig, I have seen that tree, thanks but have not found the supporting documentation.  I have now established to my satisfaction that Susannah's mum was Elin or Elinor olim MAURICE or MORRIS.  Olim is latin for formerly so whilst it might be her maiden name, it could similarly be her married name as she was a widow as per her marriage record to Moses.  Emma as you say has a marriage record for Elin WILLIAMS to David MAURICE in 1814, Llaniestyn. I haven't actually established that this is her former husband but seems to be the only record on line that provides the right names ie Elin/ Elinor and surname MAURICE (also spelt MORRIS on baptism record for her son Robert.  I don't know from where Elin originated as she died before any census and have no clues from any other records.

I'll look at Grace JONES on the forum later and check out what was found/said too.  Thanks both
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 25, 2017, 12:32:19 pm
I had a quick look at the Burial Indexes in the Archives and the one I was thinking of was the grave of John and Alice Owens, presumably John's parents.
I think that you may have Chris Drapers book "Llandudno before the hotels" and there is a good piece in it about the Owens family and the Prince of Wales pub when they were squatters on the Morfa
I did look in all the local Burial Indexes but could find nothing for Moses and Elin Jones or for John Jones Susannah's husband
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 26, 2017, 11:09:59 am
I hadn't realised there is a link between the Jones family we were researching for Mull and Jom's line. It could well be the case that there was a relationship between the Jones families in Llangystenin back then.

There is a death for Moses Jones registered in Conwy Registration District in the March quarter of 1858. Also, a death for Moses Jones, registered in Llanwrst Registration District in the same quarter and year.

The tree on Ancestry shows he was buried in Llangystenin.

Helig
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Helig on April 26, 2017, 11:25:39 am
It may be nothing but in the 1841 census in the household of Moses Jones, there is a Jane Williams, age 30, born in same county. Jane is shown as a servant. I wonder if there could be a connection with Elinor Williams/Morris/Maurice?

Helig.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on April 26, 2017, 03:03:52 pm
I hadn't realised there is a link between the Jones family we were researching for Mull and Jom's line. It could well be the case that there was a relationship between the Jones families in Llangystenin back then.

There is a death for Moses Jones registered in Conwy Registration District in the March quarter of 1858. Also, a death for Moses Jones, registered in Llanwrst Registration District in the same quarter and year.

The tree on Ancestry shows he was buried in Llangystenin.

Helig

We don't know if there is any link Helig, it could just be a coincidence with the people having the same name and from the same Parish.   The population of Llangystennin in the early 1800's couldn't have been very high but many seemed to have the same name which makes it frustrating when you are searching for someone.
Moses is probably buried in the Parish Church of Llangystennin but the records I look at only have graves with headstones so perhaps Moses and Elin didn't have a headstone.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on April 29, 2017, 04:37:27 am
I hadn't realised there is a link between the Jones family we were researching for Mull and Jom's line. It could well be the case that there was a relationship between the Jones families in Llangystenin back then.

There is a death for Moses Jones registered in Conwy Registration District in the March quarter of 1858. Also, a death for Moses Jones, registered in Llanwrst Registration District in the same quarter and year.

The tree on Ancestry shows he was buried in Llangystenin.

Helig

There are SO many Jones and Owen families .....  Moses died 1858, buried 5 Mar 18158 (Burial record Parish Church llangystenin)

I had a quick look at the Burial Indexes in the Archives and the one I was thinking of was the grave of John and Alice Owens, presumably John's parents.
I think that you may have Chris Drapers book "Llandudno before the hotels" and there is a good piece in it about the Owens family and the Prince of Wales pub when they were squatters on the Morfa
I did look in all the local Burial Indexes but could find nothing for Moses and Elin Jones or for John Jones Susannah's husband
Yes Hugo... John and Alice were John Owen's (Susannah's husband) father and step mother who had the Prince of Wales

The Jane WILLIAMS in the 1841 Census would seem to be too old for the Jane buried with Susannah.  I still haven't come any closer to finding anyone who might fit the bill I'm afraid but haven't stopped looking  ;D
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 30, 2017, 12:00:22 am
HI,
I think Jane is Susannah's sister. She was baptized on the 6th March, 1833. She shows on the 1841 and 1851 census living at the Maes in Llangwstennin. Then I think she married William Morgan on 26th March, 1858 in Llangystennin. Her father on the marriage certificate is Moses Jones a quarryman. I then find her living in Flint until she died. If this is correct she then has at least three children and her husband  stayed in Flint after her death and was buried in Flint in 1912.  I'll try and take some photos of the records again and send them to you Jom. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on April 30, 2017, 12:04:35 am
I forgot to add, I found her death in Flint on 28th April, 1889 and her burial in Llandudno on 3rd April, 1889.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on May 01, 2017, 05:27:39 am
Hi Emma

Thanks for those bits.  Certainly one heck of a coincidence re date if it's not her.  Though the archive transcription did say the name was MORAN and year 1880.....  If you'll pardon the pun  ... these things aren't set in stone in this game D) 
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on May 01, 2017, 07:59:44 am
HI,
I think Jane is Susannah's sister. She was baptized on the 6th March, 1833. She shows on the 1841 and 1851 census living at the Maes in Llangwstennin. Then I think she married William Morgan on 26th March, 1858 in Llangystennin. Her father on the marriage certificate is Moses Jones a quarryman. I then find her living in Flint until she died. If this is correct she then has at least three children and her husband  stayed in Flint after her death and was buried in Flint in 1912.  I'll try and take some photos of the records again and send them to you Jom. I hope this helps.
Thanks for the tip. I've found the marriage  record and it also states she was from Maes so fairly conclusive she married William Morgan who was also of Maes at the time
I found her and William in the 1871 and 1881censuses but not found them in the 1861 census as yet.  Will also look for william in1891 to see if he was in Chester Rpad flint
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on May 01, 2017, 11:44:40 am
Jom, just a few observations on the latest information that you and Emma have gathered:-

Emma said that Jane died on 28th April 1889 and was buried on the 3rd April 1889, I take it that the burial was the 3rd May 1889 and that Jane's surname was Morgan.
Morgan is a Welsh name whereas Moran is Irish so that makes sense but it all means that the inscription on the headstone for Jane is wrong as it has the wrong surname and the year of death.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on May 01, 2017, 02:20:16 pm
Sorry. Yes the burial I have is on 3rd May, 1889. (I shouldn't use computers late at night, I'm bad enough in the day). The Caernarvonshire burial record I have reads:
Jane Morgan - Flint - May 3 - 56 years, in the parish if Llandudno 1889.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: emma silk on May 01, 2017, 02:26:07 pm
Sorry I should have added although the surname is spelt incorrectly on the grave which could be possible, if memory serves me correct it was quite hard to read the year so there was a query by it and she was also 56 years old? Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on May 01, 2017, 02:46:18 pm
Thanks Emma,  I wonder if the people recording the inscriptions had difficulty in reading the year and mistook 1889 for 1880?    If I go to the Church I'll have a closer look at the headstone.
Jom has seen Jane's name in the 1881 Census so it must be 1889 as the year of death
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on May 08, 2017, 04:02:03 pm
It was another lovely sunny day in Llandudno so I drove up the Great Orme to St Tudno's Church.    I found the grave of Susannah quite easily but couldn't read the inscription on it at all.      The headstone looks like it is made of some soft stone and hasn't weathered very well.
That photograph must have been taken a few years ago for it to deteriorate so much so it's a good job the inscription was recorded when it was.
The grave is situated on the north and seaward side of the old Church of St Tudno.
On the south side is the grave of John Williams and the flat stone is made of slate and although it is on the ground the writing is still clear

Did you have relatives called Owen who lived at Pyllau?    Their graves are very close to the Church and are in really good condition
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on May 12, 2017, 12:07:40 am
Thank you everyone.  Another mystery solved though brought up others ha ha ha ... as always in genealogy.  This grave then Hugo, is just round the other side from my John and Martha WILLIAMS, as you say the south side.  Thank you for the photos.  Much appreciated

As far as I know, I have no Owen family from Pyllau residence but that doesn't mean anything in view of their proliferation ha ha.  Will look in to them at some point

I think I have found Jane (Jones) MORGAN and William MORGAN on the 1861 census returns.  They are noted in separate households as single servants.  I know that isn't uncommon in early stages of marriage but they were married in 1858.  I believe I have also found William in 1891

1861 Census Jane JONES (28) unmarried from Llangwstenin,  is noted as domestic servant in the household of Evan and Elizabeth JONES (farmer) at Bryn Y Gwynt Bodnod Egwlys Fach.  I don't think there is a family connection

1861 Census William MORGAN (24) unmarried from St. Asaph, is noted as a servant (cowman) in the household of Hugh and Mary PARRY, farmer at "Bodeugan", Denbighshire (I think it's in Waen)

1871 Census William and Jane are at 8 Furlong Terrace, Flint with children Ellen J 9 and William 5

1881 they are in Tradesman's Row, Pentre Ffwdan, Flint with Ellen J 18, William 15 and Margaret 7

1891 William is at 2 Evans Street, Flint with his daughter and family Anne and Robert JONES and also a son Thomas Morgan

Thanks again to all for your sterling efforts ZXZ
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: karenjadejoy on May 20, 2017, 11:09:35 pm
just to note,
its me that has the owens family at pyllau,  and as i have been following joms journey and posts, i havnt found a link to his family and mine as yet..
:) Karen
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on May 21, 2017, 10:42:33 am
Hi Karen,   I knew that someone on the forum had the Owens from Pyllau as a relative but couldn't remember who but I did take photos of the Pyllau graves.
In the photo of the church, the Owens grave is quite a nice one and is the raised grave directly in front of the pulpit on the outside of the Church.
I took some photos of the inscription on them and they are attached too.
John Williams,  Jom's relation is buried where the flat stone is on the left in the front of the photo.
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: karenjadejoy on May 22, 2017, 09:14:51 am
thanks for the really good photos
 :) karen
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on October 18, 2017, 12:18:59 pm
Hi Jom,  hope that you are keeping ok down there in NZ.    The reason I'm posting on here is because I came across some properties for sale in the local paper last week.

Derwen Deg from Llechwedd near Conwy has just come up for sale and I believe from memory that Moses Jones once lived there and have attached a link for you to look at.   I think that this was his place although I haven't established when this property was built.

I've not been able to find Moses' grave in Gyffin who died about 1842 but I did see a grave in the Burial Index for another Moses Jones buried in Gyffin in the 1860's and his address was Dwygyfylchi,      That's not far from Llechwedd and I wonder if he was related to your Moses?

http://www.fletcherpoole.com/properties/fp5397c-5-bed-detached-conwy#.WecHMoWT2Yk.email (http://www.fletcherpoole.com/properties/fp5397c-5-bed-detached-conwy#.WecHMoWT2Yk.email)
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: jom on November 22, 2017, 07:23:29 am
Hi Hugo... sorry not to have replied sooner.  Been living in an internet black hole  :rage: We have just moved house and seemingly have reasonable access so will check it out as soon as I can.  I can't answer your question from memory but I have 2 Moses Jones in my tree... Just to complicate matters so don't want to get mixed up.  Derwent She was one of their homes though yes.  Well remembered.
All's well here thanks and hope it is with you and your family
Title: Re: Gravestone of Susannah (Jones) Owen Bn 1821
Post by: Hugo on November 22, 2017, 03:52:37 pm
Hi Jom,  I didn't expect a reply as it was just to let you see the property that was up for sale.   It looks a grand house and I bet that there is a lot of history attached to it.
I'm glad that you ae well as we are here. At the moment we have work going on in the house that has gone on longer than we thought that it would so I feel like I'm housebound at the moment.
Good luck in your new home and I hope that you can settle in quickly       $good$