Three Towns Forum - Talk about Llandudno, Colwyn Bay & Conwy

The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: DownUnder on November 12, 2014, 03:24:45 AM

Title: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 12, 2014, 03:24:45 AM
A warm hello from DownUnder living 'down under' (Brisbane).

My father, Hugh Davies (whom I was named after) was born in Llandudno in 1909. His parents were William Davies and Catherine Jones. William was listed as a Boot Maker on the birth certificate. William and Catherine were married in the Register Office in Conway 19/9/1905. The 1911 Census shows them (including my father's siblings Edward (5) and Richard (3) living in 7 Alexandra Road Llandudno.

That is about the extent of the 'facts' I know.  I suspect that William Davies died sometime prior to WWII as Catherine was living on her own in Pennygroes at that time. Other challenges include the absence of a father's name and occupation on William's marriage certificate.

I have some specific questions to help me gain more information about my Welsh grandparents:

1. Is there an on-line newspaper/obituary notice database available for the period 1914 to 1939? This may help me find a record of William's death.

2. I read with interest DaveR's Llandudno Traders in 1901 posting in which he mentions the existence of 6 Boot Makers. Are there any records available which would list the staff of those traders?

3. I think there was another two sons and one daughter born to William and Catherine after 1911. Can anyone suggest a way of finding out details of those births (ie names and dates of birth).

4. Given the absence of a Father's name on William's Marriage Certificate, I have to assume the worst case scenario that he was illegitimate (worst case only in that it makes things extremely difficult in tracing my ancestors). A couple of ideas have sprung to mind, but would be very grateful for any other suggestions.

>> I believe the general 'naming' convention for children born in that era was the first son was named after the father's father, the second son named after the mother's father (not sure about naming further sons). In this case, the eldest son was Edward and the second son Richard - the name of Catherine's father. I know its a very dubious clue to go on, but you never know.

>> The Marriage Certificate lists the witnesses as John Owen Davies, Margaret Davies, and William Owen.  Does anyone know what the norm was in 1905 relating to witnesses? Were they generally friends, relatives, other parties, all of the above.

>> William was born in Denbigh in ~1876. If I was to look at the census for 1881 for a William Davies born in Denbigh where the occupants did not list a father, I could perhaps track the birth details and order copies  to see what it would tell me.


5. Dad (Hugh) was born in 2 Fron Cottages Cwlach Street Llandudno (1909), William was living at Penmaen View, Caroline St Llandudno (1905) and Catherine Jones was living at Rodonal House, Trinity Street Llandudno (1905). Are these buildings still there? If so, are there any online photos I can view.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but my family moved to Australia in 1955, have no other relatives here, and have had no contact with dad's side of the family since shortly after his death in 1970.  As you can imagine, trying to trace a family tree in wales with Davies and Jones as the surnames has been frustrating enough, but to find out that I am unlikely to trace my ancestry past my grandfather William is a new level of frustration.

If any of you have any queries re Australian records I will be glad to help out where I can.

Regards to all,  Hugh Davies
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: SteveH on November 12, 2014, 09:56:54 AM
Hi Hugh,   Welcome ....I found this link yesterday, looks like it is only available for one week, long shot but give it a try.... ££$

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/uncover-north-wales-stories-explore-8092453 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/whats-on/arts-culture-news/uncover-north-wales-stories-explore-8092453)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: suepp on November 12, 2014, 12:43:39 PM
Hi, It's so difficult with the common welsh names. Welsh Parish records are largely unavailable online. What was your fathers occupation? I have a 1929 street directory containing several Hugh and William Davies, nothing under Boot makers though. The Llandudno Archives may be able to help you and a member on here Hugo may be willing to look up an obituary there  as he often very kindly does this in response to queries on here
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2014, 02:25:52 PM
Hi Hugh, welcome to the forum.  The best scenario would be if one of the Davies family living locally could see your request and supply the info you want.
In answer to your questions:-
1)   There was a newspaper called the Llandudno Advertiser that had obituary notices in them relating to Llandudno people.  The North Wales Weekly News was another paper ( more widespread distribution)   Copies of both these weekly newspapers can be found in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno.   I don't think that they are on line but cannot be certain of that.
2)   I don't know the answer but perhaps Dave does
3)   A possibility with the Baptism Records as most people were Baptised in those days, but again the records are in the Atchives at Llandudno and I don't think that they are on line.
4)   I don't think that there were any hard and fast rules on naming children or on who you had as a witness, I think that that was up to the individuals.
You could try the Birth Certificate but there may be many with that name so you would have to be certain of the person before you applied for a costly certificate.
Another option would be to see the Baptism Records but Denbigh's records are in another Archive and I'm not certain which one ( may be Clwyd Archives}
5)  As far as I'm aware all three properties are still there although I can't be positive about Fron Cottage.   The other two properties may have changed their names in the intervening years but I don't know if an on line photo exists of the properties.
I can however help you with this and will take some photos and post them on here.

I do go to the Archives in Llandudno and they have Burial Indexes there.   They cover all the Cemeteries in the Conwy County area and list all the graves with headstones.   The Burial Indexes are also listed alphabetically and this makes it easy to search for anyone's grave.  In fact it may be a quicker way of finding out when William died and it would then  be easier to search for the obituary notice in the paper.

www.conwy.gov.uk/archives (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/archives)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 12, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
Thank you for collective suggestions, I will follow them up where I can.

I am grateful for your offer of taking some photos 'ugo - could you also let me know the street numbers of the Caroline and Trinity street properties.

suepp - I did find a document last night which listed dad's mother's address in 1929 as in Pennygroes. So they must have moved from Llandudno prior to 1929.

SteveH - I will have a good look at the link you provided and hopefully find something.

Regards
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2014, 11:02:00 PM
I'll go to the Archives and check the Street Indexes and then take some photos.   While I am there I'll check on the Burial Indexes for Llandudno and see where we can go from there.
It might be next week though before I can go to the Archives.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 13, 2014, 01:52:26 AM
Thanks once again Hugo for going to those efforts on my behalf $thanx$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2014, 08:59:00 AM
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2. I read with interest DaveR's Llandudno Traders in 1901 posting in which he mentions the existence of 6 Boot Makers. Are there any records available which would list the staff of those traders?
I don't think so, I'm afraid.

Funnily enough, I'm researching my family tree at the moment and there are a lot of Davies and Roberts in it, along with Millward and Myddleton. As Sue says, its so difficult with the common Welsh surnames.

Best of luck with it, anyway.  ££$  $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2014, 09:34:25 AM
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>> William was born in Denbigh in ~1876. If I was to look at the census for 1881 for a William Davies born in Denbigh where the occupants did not list a father, I could perhaps track the birth details and order copies  to see what it would tell me.
Just had a look at the 1911 Census. It lists William Davies as being born in Denbighshire (the County), rather than Denbigh (the town). That's an important distinction and also one that makes it far harder to track him down, unfortunately! Most Census forms will list the village/town/county, which is far more useful. Having said that, there are only 16 William Davies, born in Denbighshire in 1876, so that may be a start. Best of luck, you have a difficult job on your hands.  ££$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2014, 12:56:47 PM
How did you get it down to 16 Dave?    I've tried Roots.uk and there are 127 of William Davies and hundreds more variants.
Hugh's going to need a bit of luck with this one but we'll see what we can all do to help.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 13, 2014, 04:08:00 PM
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How did you get it down to 16 Dave?    I've tried Roots.uk and there are 127 of William Davies and hundreds more variants.
Hugh's going to need a bit of luck with this one but we'll see what we can all do to help.
I used Ancestry and 16 William Davies, born in Denbighshire in 1876, popped up in the search for the 1881 census
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2014, 10:35:11 PM
Thanks Dave,   I used Roots.uk and used William Davies born 1876 as the criteria to give me about 127 possibilities.   If William had a middle name then there are hundreds of others born in Denbighshire.   
Let's hope that I can see something in the Archives that may narrow it down.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 15, 2014, 10:53:29 AM
Hi Dave/Hugo,

I have a 1901 Census record of William Davies living as a boarder with Samuel T Davies and Maggie Davies in Lleweni, Caroline St Llandudno.  William's occupation is listed as 'Shoe Maker' and his birth place as 'Denbigh: Glan Conway'.  On the 1911 census, the 1901 census and William's marriage certificate there is no mention of a middle name.

Once again, thank you for your efforts $thanx$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 15, 2014, 03:45:23 PM
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Hi Dave/Hugo,

I have a 1901 Census record of William Davies living as a boarder with Samuel T Davies and Maggie Davies in Lleweni, Caroline St Llandudno.  William's occupation is listed as 'Shoe Maker' and his birth place as 'Denbigh: Glan Conway'.  On the 1911 census, the 1901 census and William's marriage certificate there is no mention of a middle name.

Once again, thank you for your efforts $thanx$
Using the clue of a birthplace of Glan Conway, I found a William Davies, born in 1876, listed as Grandson, living at Lower Brick Field,  Glan Conway on the 1881 census. His grandparents were Edward & Margaret Davies, they had a daughter called Dorothy. William had a brother called Edward, age 17, living with him at their Grandparents.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2014, 05:09:44 PM
Those are good finds Dave and DownUnder.    If the William Davies is Hugh's Grandfather and if William was illegitimate as Hugh thinks then it is possible that Dorothy (age not mentioned) could be William's mother.
The Baptism records may help but I'm not sure if Llansanffraid Glan Conwy's records are at the Conwy Archives.   Although Glan Conwy is now in the County of Conwy I know some of the Parish records are elsewhere.   I'll have a look when I'm there next.
Anyway, here's a photo taken today of 7 Alexandra Road Llandudno where William once lived. ( No 7 is the door on the right)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 17, 2014, 10:42:03 AM
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If the William Davies is Hugh's Grandfather and if William was illegitimate as Hugh thinks then it is possible that Dorothy (age not mentioned) could be William's mother.
That's an interesting idea, Hugo. Good work!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2014, 06:26:53 PM
Can you remember the age of Dorothy in the 1911 Census Dave?      It was only an idea but we need more evidence before we can say for certain that Dorothy was Wlliam's mother.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2014, 06:42:51 PM
5. Dad (Hugh) was born in 2 Fron Cottages Cwlach Street Llandudno (1909), William was living at Penmaen View, Caroline St Llandudno (1905) and Catherine Jones was living at Rodonal House, Trinity Street Llandudno (1905). Are these buildings still there? If so, are there any online photos I can view.

Hugh, I visited the Archives today and then drove around town to take photos of the houses you have listed.
The first photo is of Penmaen View Villa  39 Caroline Road Llandudno.
The second photo is of Roden Villa   23   Trinity Square Llandudno.    This large building has been used for various things and in the 1950's and 1960's it was a Dr Barnado's Home for children
The third photo is of what I believe is 2 Fron Cottages Cwlach Street.   The reason I'm not certain is because the street was not listed in the Street Index although we know that it is one of the oldest streets in the old village of Llandudno.  It's the second house on the right as you go from Cwlach Road.        I'll follow that up though.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2014, 06:59:43 PM
After looking at the Street Indexes, I then had a look at the Burial Indexes for St Tudno's,   St Hilary's in Llanrhos and also Llansanffraid Glan Conwy's and had a look at every William Davies' listed there.
Unfortunately your Grandfather was not listed in the books I looked at.     These Burial Indexes only list the graves with headstones and do not list the others.    Without any idea of the date of death it would not be possible for me to look through all the Obituaries in the Llandudno Advertiser as it would be too time consuming for me.
However there was one very small hope of me finding the grave for your relative and this was because a William Davies who was buried at St Tudno's Church on 6th March 1937 had his grave purchased for him by an Arfon Davies who lived in No 13 Alexandra Road Llandudno.
If you know of a relative of yours by this name then I will look at the relevant copy of the Llandudno Advertiser   (I'll probably look anyway!)
I did go up the Orme and went into the Cemetery of St Tudno's and found grave No Q 45 but this was an unmarked grave and proved nothing.   
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 17, 2014, 07:04:34 PM
3. I think there was another two sons and one daughter born to William and Catherine after 1911. Can anyone suggest a way of finding out details of those births (ie names and dates of birth).

I need to look at the Baptism Records for this info but they only give the dates of the Baptisms and do not give the dates of the births but at least it will help you with tracing their births.

It was only due to lack of time that I couldn't follow this up but will do so on another visit to the Archives
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2014, 03:15:05 PM
The Conwy Archives is now closed for stocktaking and will reopen on the 8th December 2014 so I'll have to wait until after then to look for the info.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 25, 2014, 03:19:44 AM
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Those are good finds Dave and DownUnder.    If the William Davies is Hugh's Grandfather and if William was illegitimate as Hugh thinks then it is possible that Dorothy (age not mentioned) could be William's mother.
The Baptism records may help but I'm not sure if Llansanffraid Glan Conwy's records are at the Conwy Archives.   Although Glan Conwy is now in the County of Conwy I know some of the Parish records are elsewhere.   I'll have a look when I'm there next.
Anyway, here's a photo taken today of 7 Alexandra Road Llandudno where William once lived. ( No 7 is the door on the right)

I have joined FindMyPast for 1 month and have been pouring over many, many records to a) make sure I have the correct 1901 Census record for William Davies, and to explore a number of other possibilities. For confirmation of the 1901 Census record, I used 1876 +/- 1yr as the birth date (based on 1911 Census/Marriage Certificate/my father's Birth Certificate), Denbighshire as the Birth County, and Marital Status as Single applied to the 1901 English, Wales and Scotland Census. Of the 19 names listed (without a middle initial) the Llandudno entry is the only one to tick the majority of boxes (although it was more about eliminating the other 18 entries).

Having confirmed what I think is the only logical match for the 1901 Census, I decided to look at the 1891 Census records using 1876 +/- 1yr as the birth date (based on 1911 Census/Marriage Certificate/my father's Birth Certificate/1901 Census), Denbighshire as the Birth County, and Marital Status as Single applied to the 1891 English, Wales and Scotland Census. A total of 17 names were listed (without a middle initial). Only one of the entries looked positive - Birth Place Glan Conway, Occupation - Shoe Maker and even included the Father.  However, when I checked on this family for 1901, William Davies was listed as still living there. All other entries listed birth towns other than Glan Conway or Llansaintffraid in Denbigshire or listed a father.  All in all, nothing positive.

I had previously, around 6 months ago, flagged the possibility of Dorothy being William's mother.  I traced this family from 1841 to 1881. Edward and Margaret had 10 children during this period, 7 of them females, anyone of them potentially the mother of William Davies.  Intriguingly, Dorothy (4) was listed in the 1861 Census but absent from the 1871 Census, only to reappear in the 1881 Census (23) with a William Davies. Will try to find an entry for Dorothy in the 1871 Census but not feeling too confident.

My apologies for delays in thanking you all or providing input.  I suffer from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and have been particularly out of sorts in the past few weeks.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 25, 2014, 09:46:28 AM
Sorry to hear you've not been well. Please keep posting, you have a fascinating search on your hands.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2014, 10:24:04 AM
I'm sorry to hear that you have Chronic Fatigue syndrome,   my wife suffers from the same illness so I know how debilitating it must be for you.
With research it can be so frustrating when you are looking for some one as you think that you've found them but need conclusive proof before you can say for certain that that is the person you are looking for.
Once the Archives are open again I'll pop down there and see what I can find, unfortunately there are no guarantees that I'll find something, sometimes you just need that bit of luck.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 25, 2014, 08:05:51 PM
Just a thought Hugh, in your original enquiry you referred to the witnesses and one was Maggie Smith.    As Maggie is the pet name for Margaret I'm just wondering if this was the Margaret Davies of Lleweni  Caroline St that you found in the 1901 Census as  William was a boarder there.
It's possible that William was in fact related to Samuel T Davies & Maggie Davies as families often helped each other out in those days.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 26, 2014, 08:24:59 AM
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Just a thought Hugh, in your original enquiry you referred to the witnesses and one was Maggie Smith.    As Maggie is the pet name for Margaret I'm just wondering if this was the Margaret Davies of Lleweni  Caroline St that you found in the 1901 Census as  William was a boarder there.
It's possible that William was in fact related to Samuel T Davies & Maggie Davies as families often helped each other out in those days.

Great suggestion Hugo. I will start a trace on Samuel T Davies which hopefully will uncover a fresh link. As for the CFS, it affects me mainly in the afternoon/evening when my ability to reason logically or think cohesively becomes a challenge.  I'm sorry to hear your wife is a sufferer.  I have found (for me) a 20 minute walk each day builds up my energy levels and I can function pretty well on a day-to-day basis.  If I stop walking (as I have recently), I tend to go down hill fairly quickly.

On a positive note, Brisbane seems to have weathered the recent G20 Summit without the normal upheaval and destruction associated with this event elsewhere. I think the record high temperatures for November set the weekend of the G20 made any physical exertion a real challenge. It was that weekend our granddaughter was baptised and a celebration party held at our home (what else are grandparents for) - fortunately we have air conditioning which made things bearable (but only just).
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 26, 2014, 09:22:20 AM
What sort of temperatures are are you getting over there? Currently 8 Degrees here in Llandudno!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 26, 2014, 10:18:29 AM
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What sort of temperatures are are you getting over there? Currently 8 Degrees here in Llandudno!

The temperature for that day was forecast to reach 40 degrees Celsius.  Brisbane is a sub-tropical climate and whilst I have been in Melbourne on days reaching 40 degrees, it was like standing in front of a hair dryer. Brisbane at that temperature is more like being in a sauna - high temperature with high humidity. Having said that, we are near the bay and we normally get some sea breezes of an afternoon on our back deck. 

There was a tourist campaign a number of years ago along the lines of 'Queensland - Sunshine one day, perfect the next'.  I think a more accurate line was delivered by a comedian (may have been Billy Connelly), "Queensland does have a Winter, It lasts for one or two days around the middle of July".  My wife and I have been to Tasmania in the middle of Winter where scraping the ice of the car window was a daily event, and loved the experience of the cold weather. Would I swap for good? It would not be out of the question.  Spring in Brisbane is absolutely beautiful. Cool crisp mornings followed by bright sunshine and mild temperatures for the rest of the day.

We did get over to the UK in 2002 (first time since emigrating to Australia in 1955) for our son's wedding in London.  We had to be in Scotland for my uncle's 70 the birthday party but did arrive there via Wales. Can't remember where we stayed overnight in Wales but I do fondly remember going to the local pub and listening to the lovely Welsh lilt - not heard by me since the death of my father in 1970. We did spend some time in Llandudno trying to find the house my dad was born in, but without much success. I do know that I was very impressed by the town and regretted that we did not have more time to spend there.

Sorry. Seems a very long response to your question, but  whilst 8 degrees does sound very cold, I can imagine that rugged up with all the appropriate winter gear, the beer would still taste good at the local.  Z**
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on November 26, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
Very interesting, thank you. I'm not sure I'd swap our 8 Degrees for your 40 Degrees. I like it warm but not quite that hot!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 26, 2014, 07:53:11 PM
That CFC affects people in different ways, the heat affects my wife and it's one of the reasons we can't go to see her natural father who lives in Western Australia.  He said last Summer that the temperature where he lives was 50C which is unimaginable.
I can't do much before the 8th December but I'll have a think about things and see if it can help you in any way.
I've posted a photo of where I think your father was born at 2 Fron Cottages Cwlach Street but I want to be absolutely certain that this is the address and I'll let you know on here.  The other addresses are all confirmed.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 27, 2014, 08:29:33 AM
Last night I was reading a book by Chris Draper called "Llandudno before the hotels"   and it covers the period before about 1850.  Part of the book covers streets and houses in the old village of Llandudno and as a result I don't think the photo I posted is of 2 Fron Cottage.
The old names and terraces appear to have vanished but I know roughly where Fron Cottage would be.
In the book it is near a terrace of Properties called "Queen Street" and my G Grandfather lived in one of those cottages. 
A short distance from them is Tai'nyfron (sometimes called "Y Fron")   and a William Owen, Gogarth and his wife were living in one of the cottages when this story was told.
This is where Fron Cottages is and where your father would have been born, I'll find the cottages and post a photo on here.   I want to double check it at the Archives so it'll be after the 8th December.
 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 28, 2014, 07:44:05 AM
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The old names and terraces appear to have vanished but I know roughly where Fron Cottage would be.
In the book it is near a terrace of Properties called "Queen Street" and my G Grandfather lived in one of those cottages. 
A short distance from them is Tai'nyfron (sometimes called "Y Fron")   and a William Owen, Gogarth and his wife were living in one of the cottages when this story was told.
This is where Fron Cottages is and where your father would have been born, I'll find the cottages and post a photo on here.   I want to double check it at the Archives so it'll be after the 8th December.
 

Many thanks once again Hugo. 

Using my fathers birth certificate, William's Marriage Certificate, the 1911 Census and the 1901 Census, I narrowed search criteria to William Davies with no middle name, born in Llansaintffraid Glan Conway, Denbighshire in 1876 between 3 April and 19 September. It would appear that William does not know the name of his father and therefore would not be listed in any Census as having 'Son' as a relationship.

An examination of the 1891 Census proved to be inconclusive with a number of possibilities but only one match with a birth place of Llansaintffraid. Tantalisingly, this record shows a William Davies having an occupation of Shoe Maker but lists his father. Looking forward to this family in 1901 shows William Davies as still residing there.

I then focused on the 1881 Census which, of the 10 records showing an 1876 birth year, only one record matches the 'known facts', and yes, it is the record of a William Davies - Grand Son born in Llansaintffraid Glan Conway and a Daughter listed as Dorothy Davies, potentially William's mother.

I then looked at the Birth records in Denbighshire for 1876, only to find that there was no records listing Llansaintffraid Glan Conway but showing 10 entries for Wrexham, 1 entry for Llanwrst and 4 entries for St Asaph.  Does anyone have any suggestions? Even if the William Davies shown in the 1901 Census and the 1881 Census is not my grandfather, shouldn't there be a birth record for this person? Even extending the search to 1878 +/- 1 year does not reveal anything different except for one record for Ruthin and one for Minera.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 28, 2014, 09:32:21 AM
You've reached that stage in your research that can be frustrating, but all you need is a bit of luck and that may point you in the right direction.
Just to pick up on the last paragraph of your reply, Denbighshire years ago had two counties that were separate for some reason.  You can discard the entries for Wrexham and it is the St Asaph ones you need to focus on.
If my old memory serves me right then St Asaph was the Registration District for births etc. for Glan Conwy
Llandudno on the other hand was in Caernarfonshire and the Registration District for the town was Conwy

I've had a look at Baptism records for other people on the forum and they go back well before 1876 so I can look at them for your Father's siblings as they are at the Conwy Archives
As for the one's relating to Llansanffraid Glan Conwy  I haven't found out where they are located yet but will do as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 28, 2014, 11:54:18 AM
This link below may be of some help with tracing William.  It seems that the Baptism records may be in Ruthin.

I put this into Google " baptism records Glan Conwy"  and had a search under Denbigh Baptisms but I'm afraid that no results came up for Glan Conwy but that doesn't mean for certain that William wasn't baptised there


www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/LlansanffraidGlanConwy (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/LlansanffraidGlanConwy)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 29, 2014, 04:06:24 AM
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This link below may be of some help with tracing William.  It seems that the Baptism records may be in Ruthin.

I put this into Google " baptism records Glan Conwy"  and had a search under Denbigh Baptisms but I'm afraid that no results came up for Glan Conwy but that doesn't mean for certain that William wasn't baptised there


www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/LlansanffraidGlanConwy (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/LlansanffraidGlanConwy)

I was wondering what the situation would have been for an unmarried mother in relation to having her illegitimate child baptised back then? Was baptism 'compulsory'?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
It wasn't compulsory to have a child baptised back then but it did seem to be the norm.    There were numerous illegitimate children baptised and I've even seen some where they have named the father too.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 30, 2014, 05:36:02 AM
I have ordered the four birth certificates for St Asaph from the GRO so hope one of these is my treasure chest.  One other thought, I had was the norm at the time for recording the Father's name on the Birth Certificate. Did an unmarried mother generally omit the father's name out of fear, embarrassment, etc. or was she likely to include the fathers name as a 'legal requirement'.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2014, 06:47:28 PM
Do you have to pay for the four birth certificates?    My cousin is into family research in a big way and has ordered various certificates only to find out when he has received them that they are not for  his relation so it's cost him a bit.
It wasn't a legal requirement to put the father's name on the Birth/Registration Certificate but from all the Baptism records I have seen the name of the father is missing in the majority of cases.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 30, 2014, 11:31:59 PM
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Do you have to pay for the four birth certificates?    My cousin is into family research in a big way and has ordered various certificates only to find out when he has received them that they are not for  his relation so it's cost him a bit.

The four certificates cost me 37 pounds in total.  If one of them turns out to be a positive for my grandfather, it will be worth every penny.  When I originally started tracing my father's tree in 2010, I did not really approach it too logically and ordered four birth certificates, one of which I was certain would be the one I needed. All were for the Conway district (cannot remember why) and none proved to be what I was looking for.  So, yes, it can become a costly hobby.  Having said that, I have taken a lot more methodical approach this time and thanks to you and others on this web site, have got some vital clues and suggestions, so I am hopeful of success this time.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on December 01, 2014, 09:40:52 AM
I'm in a similar position with a relative, as I have found 4 possibilities in the records with same name, year and place of birth. As far as I can see, the only way to narrow it down to the correct one is to order the birth certificates.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2014, 10:11:27 AM
If the possible relative lived in this area Dave, have you thought of looking at these Baptism Records?     It's free to browse in the Archives and they will do a photo copy of it for 25p.
I'll be in the Conwy Archives next week looking in those records for Hugh's father's siblings and hope I'll get lucky there.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DaveR on December 01, 2014, 10:35:10 AM
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If the possible relative lived in this area Dave, have you thought of looking at these Baptism Records?     It's free to browse in the Archives and they will do a photo copy of it for 25p.
I'll be in the Conwy Archives next week looking in those records for Hugh's father's siblings and hope I'll get lucky there.
Good idea, Hugo, I shall bear that in mind, thank you.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2014, 03:19:16 PM
Hugh,  I had a wander down Cwlach Street today and made a note of that info I read in Chris Draper's book.   Unfortunately it didn't help as all the old names of the cottages have gone and been renamed.  In addition the street has been renumbered since your Dad lived there.
I called at the terrace that I thought was the most obvious one and spoke to a lady who had lived there for 40 years and she had never heard of Fron Cottages.   Mind you she had never heard of Queen Street either and that was immediately next door to her and I know that because my G Grandfather lived there.
Over the years the properties have been altered and today where I called,  there are two cottages together but looking closely at the building, I believe that it was a terrace of four cottages originally.
I can find out the exact one though, through the Archives but it'll be next week before they reopen but in the meantime I took photos of a couple of terraces so that I don't need to go back to the street again.
Once I can confirm the correct address I'll post the photo on here.
 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on December 05, 2014, 01:56:02 AM
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Hugh,  I had a wander down Cwlach Street today and made a note of that info I read in Chris Draper's book.   Unfortunately it didn't help as all the old names of the cottages have gone and been renamed.  In addition the street has been renumbered since your Dad lived there.
I called at the terrace that I thought was the most obvious one and spoke to a lady who had lived there for 40 years and she had never heard of Fron Cottages.   Mind you she had never heard of Queen Street either and that was immediately next door to her and I know that because my G Grandfather lived there.
Over the years the properties have been altered and today where I called,  there are two cottages together but looking closely at the building, I believe that it was a terrace of four cottages originally.
I can find out the exact one though, through the Archives but it'll be next week before they reopen but in the meantime I took photos of a couple of terraces so that I don't need to go back to the street again.
Once I can confirm the correct address I'll post the photo on here.
 
Thank you for making such great efforts on my behalf Hugo, I very much appreciate it.  As we are coming into the Christmas season I expect you will have many other things that will claim your time so I am happy to wait until such efforts suit your timetable.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 05, 2014, 09:15:18 AM
Thanks Hugh,  I'll see what I can do next week but after that I'll be getting busy and the Archives will be closed over the Christmas and New Year period.
Don't worry though because I've got a list of things I want to check and will do them asap.       
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2014, 05:01:26 PM
I was in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at a few records but couldn't find anything that may help with your search.

What I did first was to have a look at the Burial Indexes for Salem Baptist Church at Glan Conwy and the Baptist Church at Glanwydden but there was no record of William Davies' burial at either Cemetery.
Next, I had a look at the Street Indexes for Llandudno but this didn't help either as all the houses were numbered and not named.   I did look at an old map  (1800's)  of Llandudno and all the houses shown on it are still there today so 2 Fron Cottage is there but just needs locating.
I'll look next time at the 1906 Llandudno rates book which may help.
In the 1911 Street Index William is living at Ivy Dale  7 Alexandra Road and is a shoemaker.   There is also a William Davies living at 13 Alexandra Road and he is a Mason.   He must be the father of Arfon Davies and is not your William so I didn't look at the 1937 Llandudno Advertiser as I knew then that he wasn't your Grandfather.
In the 1914 Street Index  a Frank Collins a PO wireman was living at Ivy Dale 7 Alexandra Road so your William must have moved address by then.   There are a number of William Davies' listed in the 1914 Street Index but none of them had their occupation listed as a boot or shoe maker.
I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Records and looked from 1905 until 1927 but there are no entries for any of William's children.
I'm sorry Hugh but I'm having no luck with my searches and don't know what to suggest but I'll follow up the location of Fron Cottage and hope that I have more luck there.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2014, 08:26:46 PM
Hugh,  I've done a few searches here and don't know why information is not appearing for me.    I've been thinking about it and am assuming   that you haven't had much contact with your family since you moved to Australia in 1955.
If my assumptions are correct you would have gone there under the £10.00 ticket but would have been old enough to remember details of your family in Wales.
I'm not wanting to know any personal details but any extra info could possibly help.
I take it your father didn't go to Australia with you as you would have gleamed the info from him?    If he died in this area then there may have been  an obituary notice in the local papers and sometimes these notices can supply names of relatives etc
I found out today that William had left 7 Alexandra Road by the time the 1914 Street Index had been published so do you know for a fact that William was still living in Llandudno after 1914?
The reason I ask is that you know that Catherine was living in Penygroes in 1929 but at the time William would only have been about 53 so he may well have been still alive and living there with her.   In which case we would be looking in the wrong area and the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon is where some records will be.
I take it that you were born in Llandudno so any address that you or your father lived at may help and was Hugh Davies your father's full name or did he have another first name?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on December 11, 2014, 07:29:39 AM
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Hugh,  I've done a few searches here and don't know why information is not appearing for me.    I've been thinking about it and am assuming   that you haven't had much contact with your family since you moved to Australia in 1955.
If my assumptions are correct you would have gone there under the £10.00 ticket but would have been old enough to remember details of your family in Wales.

Hi Hugo,

Sorry. I realise I have not put things together in any sort of logical order so I hope the following clears things up (all names are the full names as far as I am aware of):

I (Hugh Davies) was born in Glasgow in 1/9/1950. My father, Hugh Davies (b.2/9/1907) was born in Llandudno and married my mother Agnes McLeod Cowan (b 3/4/1921) in Glasgow on 18/10/1944. Dad was in the Merchant Navy during the war years (but only one record could be found to support this). Mum and dad had three sons William, John and Hugh (me), whilst living in Glasgow, and around 1954, dad made application to immigrate to Australia – eventually accepted, and we moved to Australia in 1955. 

Mum was a very naïve young woman when she got married and it appears she never really enquired into dad’s family, so she is not a reliable source of knowledge (now 93).  Some of the snippets of my mother’s memories include dad working in a slate quarry as a young man. Before coming to Australia in 1955, we all visited our Welsh grandmother and other relatives in PenyGroes.  I remember my father in tears some time before 1968, and I’m fairly certain that he had just received word that his mother had passed away.  Other memories include dad and another crewman being expelled at a port during the war because they have saved their ‘rum rations’ for some time and then had a party. The ship was subsequently torpedoed and sunk with all hands. Dad had lost the ‘pointer’ finger of his right hand as a result of an infection. Dad passed away in 1970 when I was 20. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, we never had general discussions with dad about his life history, and hence the vacuum of knowledge.

Dad’s parents were William Davies (b.~1876) and Catherine Jones (b. ~1885) who married in 1905 in Llandudno. William and Catherine had Edward ~ 1906, Richard ~1908 and Hugh (my father) in 1909.  I think there were two other siblings which followed dad, one was known as Bonzo or Gonzo, and the other his sister who calls herself Jinw pronounced ‘Jeannie’.  I read a letter sent from dad’s brother Richard sent after the death of my father wherein Richard talks about the fondness both he and my father 'Hughie' had for the mountains they could see from their doorstep when they were school kids. He also mentioned the frequent trips up to the mountains to see their uncle “Bwff” and mentioned being born in his grandmother’s cottage up on the mountains. Was the ‘front’ door somewhere in Llandudno or somewhere in PenyGroes I do not know. Was the grandmother the paternal or maternal grandmother, I do not know. I do know that William, Catherine and my dad were living in PennyGroes in 1929. I am now assuming William was still alive as there was no mention of being deceased on the document.

So, the challenges have been – no mention of a Father on William’s marriage certificate; no results using a search of BMD using Bonzo or Gonzo as a name for dad’s sibling; no results when using Jinw as his sister’s name; and no hit was found for any Census using the first name of Bwff.

In the mid 60’s dad’s brother Edward had a son Gwyndaf who was a cook on a merchant vessel which would dock here in Brisbane from time to time.  Dad would spend a lot of time with Gwyndaf during these visits mostly speaking Welsh, so the rest of us were oblivious to what stories were being told.  Gwyndaf retired in Pwhlleli where his parents lived. I did a search of a Gwyndaf Davies for Electrol records and found a Gwyndaf Davies who is around 65 (would be the correct age) and has been living there since 2002.  I will send a letter to him to see if he is THE Gwyndaf. If so, it should open a huge window of information.

One of the key bits of information I need to find (if possible), is when did William, Catherine and their children leave Llandudno.  Dad’s brother Richie talked about the mountains they could see from his mother’s doorstep when they were young children going to school. Again, were they going to school in Llandudno or in PennyGroes.

Sorry for being a bit vague on the details, but hopefully the above has put the details in some sort of order. I am still awaiting the copies of the birth certificates for William Davies and keeping my fingers crossed. Once again my sincere thanks for all you have done.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2014, 12:12:08 PM
Thanks very much Hugh for going to all the time and trouble with your reply.  It explains a lot and especially why I have had no luck tracing your Llandudno connections.
I had a look at the 1911 Street index and saw Williams name but  not in the 1914 Street Index nor any of the four other indexes I looked at.
Now that you've supplied the extra info my opinion, although I have no proof, is that William moved to Penygroes after 1911 but before 1914 and the mountains that Hugh saw from the front are the Snowdonia mountains and he would have seen them from Penygroes.
In those days Penygroes was a mainly Welsh speaking community and the main occupations were in the various slate quarries around that area.
I think your search should be focused on Penygroes and I hope Gwyndaf can supply you with the missing links.   I know how you feel as I wish that I'd have asked questions at the time but didn't and now I have dozens of photos of my ancestors but cannot put names to them
I put "Penygroes History" into Google and had a look at Penygroes-Nantlle.com and it shows photos of Penygroes in the early days which you may find of interest.  One in particular is of the County School pupils there in 1922 and your father may have been in the school at that time
Another site which may help is "Carnarvon Traders"    (that's how it is spelt on Google)     Caernarfon is the main town in that area and there is a lot of info to be found on the site.
The Archive Office dealing with Penygroes is     archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk   and if you put into Google "Gwynedd Archives online"   there may be stuff there that can help you.
I hope that you find the info that you are looking for and can make contact with Gwyndaf and obtain addresses etc in Penygroes but in the meantime I'll follow up the location of Fron Cottage in Cwlach Street.    This photo is of the cottages that I now think is where your father was born but it'll be interesting to see which one it was.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 11, 2014, 06:36:20 PM
Hugh,  I was back in the Archives at Llandudno again and had a look through the 1906 rates book (all 209 pages) but I'm afraid that I can't find Fron Cottages in the book.
I also looked at the 1911 Street Index which strangely doesn't have a Cwlach Street listed (it does have Cwlach Road but no Fron Cottage)
I did look through every street in that particular area but again had no luck.
One guy in the Archives that I spoke to has a friend who lived in Cwlach Street many years ago and he will ask him for me if he know which house is Fron Cottage.
I'm not holding much hope on this Hugh but if I do then I'll post what I find on here.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2014, 04:02:30 PM
Just to put you in the picture Hugh, the name "Fron"  or "Bron" is the Welsh word for breast (of a hill) and it's quite appropriate for Cwlach Street because of its location.
Cwlach Street isn't a big street as such and there aren't many houses there but tracing your father's address isn't as easy as I thought that it would be.
All the houses are now numbered but in the mid 1800's there were houses there called  Pen Y Fron,   Frondeg,   Tan Y Fron and   Tai'nyfron  (sometimes called Y Fron) all in that small street.
What I need is irrefutable evidence where William Davies lived in the street and I'm hoping that there is a Rates Book for 1909 at the Archives and as William was living there then, it will show me this and then I can work out where the property is in relation to it's modern day number.
Unfortunately now, I won't be able to call in to the Archives until early January but I will look again and update you on here
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2014, 11:04:27 AM
Hugh,  do you have any addresses in Penygroes for your relations?      That would help with some records such as the Register of Electors and possibly Baptism records etc. and then you could e-mail the Gwynedd Archives who may be able to help.
I've been looking on line at Penygroes but up to 2005 they had no Burial Indexes there although that may have changed since.  Those indexes in Conwy Archives record inscriptions from headstones but also list the people alphabetically and it is a good help.
I must admit that I've never heard of anyone in Wales called Gonzo or Bonzo ,  Jinw or Bwff  so perhaps they are just family "pet names"  for the people concerned.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 14, 2014, 01:15:27 PM
Hugh,   I've sent an e-mail to the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon        archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk                                                  asking whether they hold the Burial Indexes for Penygroes and I've also asked them if they have the Register of Electors for the years near 1930 as William,  Catherine and Hugh should be on them then.
When I receive a reply I'll post it on here but it'll be after next Saturday as I'll be off line from today.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on December 15, 2014, 02:38:42 AM
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Hugh,  do you have any addresses in Penygroes for your relations?      That would help with some records such as the Register of Electors and possibly Baptism records etc. and then you could e-mail the Gwynedd Archives who may be able to help.
I've been looking on line at Penygroes but up to 2005 they had no Burial Indexes there although that may have changed since.  Those indexes in Conwy Archives record inscriptions from headstones but also list the people alphabetically and it is a good help.
I must admit that I've never heard of anyone in Wales called Gonzo or Bonzo ,  Jinw or Bwff  so perhaps they are just family "pet names"  for the people concerned.

Hi Hugo. The address I have on a document dated September 1929 shows their address as 2 Tre Ddafydd, Penygroes. I also recall seeing a document giving his mother's name as next of kin around the start of WWII using the same address. I talked to my brother last night who is sure than dad's brother Richard was known as Bonzo. His sister was known as 'Gino' but spells her name as Jinw. As for Bwff, I have no idea. Is their any Welsh language constructs that would give me a clue as to the English translation of Bwff? Once again, thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 15, 2014, 08:13:23 AM
That's all good stuff Hugh and very positive as 2 Tre Ddafydd is a terraced house that is still there.   It will give us a positive start to work on the Penygroes part of the family.
I'll have a look at your latest posting next weekend as I won't be back on the computer until then
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on December 19, 2014, 01:43:27 PM
If you recall, I sent away for four Birth Certificates for William Davies. Alas, they all show a father's name, so I will trace them forward to see where that leads me. 

The one huge anomaly however is that two of the William Davies entries in the Birth Register had identical Folio and Page numbers.  These two certificates highlight the startling qualities of one Eleanor Davies formerly Roberts, who was apparently able to conduct a marriage with both a John Davies in Jenkin Street Abergele as well as an Evan Davies in Market Place Abergele at the same time. Not only did she seem to be able to do this seemingly impossible task, she miraculously was able to give birth to a William Davies fathered by Evan Davies in August 1876 and then give birth to a second baby, also named William Davies but fathered by John Davies in September 1986. Or... the records could be incorrect.

The certificate naming Evan Davies as the father lists the Informant as Evan, and is supported by an 1881 Census record showing a W E Davies as the son and a William Roberts as the Father-In-Law. The certificate naming John Davies as the father lists the Informant as Eleanor Davies, but I could not find any Census Records to support this certificate.  What does all this mean? Which certificate is incomplete/incorrect? I am inclined to think that the name of the informant would more likely to be an accurate inscription than the other details. This would seem to lend credence to the certificate naming John Davies as the father, but I cannot find any supporting census records for this certificate unlike the certificate naming Evan Davies as the informant.

I have sent a letter to a Gwyndaf Davies in Pwllheli but do not expect any reply until the New Year. Given the comments by my father's brother Richard, I should try to get a copy of his birth certificate if he was born in his 'Grandmother's cottage'.  Feeling extremely frustrated with the lack of positive results and the seemingly endless challenges of record anomalies and spelling of names.

Time to take a big breath and enjoy the festive season.  Best wishes to all!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 21, 2014, 08:15:51 AM
It's frustrating for you at the moment but hopefully you'll get a lucky break in the New Year and perhaps a positive reply from Gwyndaf.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 21, 2014, 08:37:45 AM
I sent an e-mail to Gwynedd Archives and asked about a burial index for Penygroes in Gwynedd and also about the Register of Electors for 1930 and this is the reply I have received:-

Dear Sir

If you are looking for church burial records, you can look at our online catalogue for the Llanllyfni parish records (in which Penygroes is situated) :
https://diogel.cyngor.gwynedd.gov.uk/DATRhagorol/RhestrEitem.aspx?iaith=cy&rhif_archif=12&rhif_rhiant=2040&rhif_tudalen=1

If you are looking for chapel burial records, unfortunately these prove to be very scarce.
Additionally, we also have the 1930 electoral register for Caernarfonshire.
There is access to some parish register entries online at ancestry.co.uk (I believe there are some entries for Caernarfonshire included).  However, the electoral registers have not been digitised therefore you would need to visit our archive office in person to access these (or to see the original church registers or any kind of documents associated with chapels).  If it is not possible to visit our office in person, then any research would have to be conducted by our researcher (which does involve a fee) - I have attached a copy of the relevant form to this email which contains full details of this service.

GILES MAURICE

CYMHORTHYDD ARCHIFAU / ARCHIVE ASSISTANT

archifau.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk

archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk

I've copied the application for a research and will post it on here asap

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 21, 2014, 09:18:30 AM
Hugh,  I've copied the letters requesting a research in case you want to use it but would suggest that you don't do it straight away as I feel that you haven't got any conclusive info at present for them to go on.
What I would suggest you do, is to do something I did some time ago (incidently that was for a Hugh Davies but no relation of yours)
Send an e-mail to the Caernarfon Archives and tell them that you are searching for your relatives but live in Australia and ask them " if they can tell you the names of all the people listed on the 1930 voters list who were living at 2 Tre Ddafydd in Penygroes"
When you receive their reply you can decide on what you want to do next.

I have had a look at the link they supplied but to be honest I am not very good at navigating my way around these sites and so I found nothing.  Hope that you have some better luck
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2014, 05:48:33 AM
Quote
I then looked at the Birth records in Denbighshire for 1876, only to find that there was no records listing Llansaintffraid Glan Conway but showing 10 entries for Wrexham, 1 entry for Llanwrst and 4 entries for St Asaph.  Does anyone have any suggestions? Even if the William Davies shown in the 1901 Census and the 1881 Census is not my grandfather, shouldn't there be a birth record for this person? Even extending the search to 1878 +/- 1 year does not reveal anything different except for one record for Ruthin and one for Minera.

Hugh, that is what I found out too but unfortunately the Birth certificates you ordered have not given you the info you are looking for.  The registration district for Glan Conwy has been St Asaph.  You can discount Wrexham completely but I'm now puzzled about the Llanrwst Registry.    In my lifetime I can never remember Llanrwst being the registration district for Glan Conwy but I've been wondering about it since.   
Llanrwst is just over 10 miles from Glan Conwy whereas St Asaph is just over 17 miles away and I was wondering whether Llanrwst was the registration district at the time your Grandfather was born.
DaveR even got an address for him in Glan Conwy so it might be worth looking into that one entry for Llanrwst
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on December 26, 2014, 08:57:45 AM
Hugo - the Glan Conwy area has been in several Registration Districts or Sub-Districts over the years.  At one time it was Llanrwst, then Conwy and also part of the Creuddyn Sub-District.  The Registration staff at the Town Hall have full details of the dates concerned and are very helpful.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2014, 11:40:04 AM
Thank you very much for that information Cambrian, it's really appreciated and will be very helpful for everyone who is doing research in the area,     $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2014, 12:49:59 PM
My cousin has done a lot of research for his family and in the process has requested a number of copies of various documents only to find that they do not relate to his relations.
It's therefore costly and frustrating if that happens so it's so important to be as sure as you can be before ordering the forms.
It means a lot to Hugh to get any info he can,  but now that you've confirmed that Llanrwst was at one time the Registration District for Glan Conwy it may be worth him applying for that remaining one.
I know the Archives did a little work free of charge and that's why I have suggested that Hugh e-mail the Gwynedd Archives just asking if they can supply details of all the people eligible to vote in 1930 at the address he supplied in Penygroes.
When Hugh gets a reply and publishes it on here, perhaps we can put our heads together and come up with the best way to proceed.  Thanks again Cambrian for your info as your local knowledge of these things is very helpful and important.   $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on December 26, 2014, 03:02:07 PM
Hugo - checked a bit more.  Glan Conwy was in the Conway Registration District from 1837 until 1.10.1935 when it transferred to the Aled Registration District.  I think my reference to "Llanrwst" came from something I had looked at in the past where the postal address was Glan Conwy but the parish was actually Eglwysbach.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2014, 04:49:15 PM
Thanks Cambrian,  I've just checked again with Google and agree with what you have said.   The Parish of Glan Conwy was quite big years ago and it could be an anomaly and was included in Llanrwst because of the location.
I've tried various sites to find William and each one has brought it down to 4 in St Asaph and one in Llanrwst.    It's a gamble going for a birth certificate but Hugh may want to take the chance as when he finds the correct one it'll be worth it.
By any chance do you know where the Baptism records for Glan Conwy are held?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 26, 2014, 11:23:59 PM
Hugh  I have no access at present to any of these Ancestry sites and won't be able to look at any in a library for a while now. 
Before you do anything about requesting another Birth Certificate is it possible to do an Ancestry search using Glan Conwy as the place of birth and using Conwy as the Registration District. 
Thanks to what Cambrian has found out, If this is possible then you have more chance of finding William.


I've had another look at Roots.uk and it shows only 3 entries for Conway in 1876  (  Conway V or  Conway Valley not appropriate)  but I am unable to view anything about the 3 William Davies'  but perhaps you may be able to access this info
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 27, 2014, 02:55:26 PM
Hugh,  as I'm going nowhere over this Christmas period I took out a subscription with Genes Reunited and had another crack at tracing William Davies'e birth.
The first thing I can say is to discount the entry for Llanrwst as that William Davies lived in Llangernyw.
With the info Cambrian found and the Census of 1881 that DaveR found I can confirm the following.   In 1876, when William was born the Parish was called Eglwys-Rhos,  the Registration District for Eglwys-Rhos was Conway.
I have previously checked and now rechecked the Conway Birth Registers and there were 3 entries for a William Davies in 1876.   As a result of Genes reunited I have found all three but strangely, as you have found out already it seems that two (pages 14 and 15) have been duplicated.    This leaves only two entries but I cannot establish which one is your William.
Just for your info I have copied the records for you:-
1)    1881    Record Transcription of 1881 Census
2)     1881    Census form
3)     1876  Birth details  pg 12    Registered  July-Aug-Sept
4)      1876    "        "       pg 14  (duplicated with pg 15)       Registered  Apr-May-June
5)      1876    "         "      pg  15  (duplicated with pg 14)             "            "       "       "

I hope this can help you in your search
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2014, 10:13:42 AM
Hugh,  I don't know if you have found William on the 1891 Census.   I did using Ancestry and he was living in Caernarfonshire but I couldn't see where, as I don't subscribe to that website.
He must have left Glan Conwy  as he was about 16 and was working as a shoe maker,  his Grandparents in Glan Conwy may have died by then.   Do you know his address in the 1991 Census?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on December 28, 2014, 12:12:23 PM
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Hugh,  I don't know if you have found William on the 1891 Census.   I did using Ancestry and he was living in Caernarfonshire but I couldn't see where, as I don't subscribe to that website.
He must have left Glan Conwy  as he was about 16 and was working as a shoe maker,  his Grandparents in Glan Conwy may have died by then.   Do you know his address in the 1991 Census?

Hi Hugo. You certainly seem to have been very busy on my behalf. Where do I start? Okay, -

 - I have written to my potential cousin Gwyndaff in Pwllheli and am awaiting a response. 
 - I identified the three potential birth records for William Davies in Conwy back in 2010 and sent away for the associated birth certificates, all of which showed a father.
 - I looked at the http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php (http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/index.php) site for the birth of Edward Davies (eldest son of William and Catherine) and found, as expected, an entry for Llandudno. Similarly, an entry for my father Hugh Davies was similarly located, As I mentioned previously, dad's brother Richard mentioned in a letter that he loved the mountains he could see from his family's front door and in fact had been born in those mountains in his grandmother's cottage.   A search for Richard Davies showed possible records for Betws y Coed, Colwyn Bay, both in Conwy Count Borough (Llandudno) It would seem that the Bets y Coed seems to be the most mountainous of the two.  Is this a fair assumption?
 - I am somewhat frustrated that the Conwy and St Asaph birth records all show fathers.  There were two anomalies. The first was two entries in the Conwy records with the same Volume and Page number which proved to be two unique certificates with only the child's name William Davies in common. The second anomaly was a similar duplicate Volume and Page number for two of the St Asaph records which, in this instance, showed a common mother's name - ' Eleanor Davies formerly Roberts'.  I find it hard to believe that two Eleanor
Roberts married a Davies in such a small area then gave birth to a son within days of each other and both called their son William. So how do I seek clarification on this?   
 - Again, looking at the North Wales BMD site, there is only one match that seems to match the criteria =- William Davies b1876 Denbigh.  It could well be worth my while obtaining a copy of this record -however, they do not accept payment via credit card so I'll have to explore alternative payment methods.
 - Perhaps I should take a view that the absence of a father's name on William Davies' Marriage Certificate may not conclusively indicate that he was an illegitimate child. 

Any further ideas/advice warmly welcomed.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2014, 02:37:58 PM
Hugh, there has been some confusion here between counties and Registration Districts and it's most unusual.     Llansanffraid Glan Conwy was in Denbighshire but for some unknown historical reason it came under the Parish of Eglwys-Rhos.     Now Eglwys- Rhos' Registration District for Births was Conway which was in Caernarvonshire.
Therefore any children born in Glan Conwy would have the birth registered in Conway and that should be the District that William's birth was registered at and even if William was illegitimate a birth certificate could, even if unlikely, still show the father's name.  At this moment please don't apply for any Birth Certificate when the birth hasn't been recorded in Conwy as you will be wasting your time and money.


It seems that William must have moved around a bit as you say that Richard born about 1908  in Betws Y Coed, Hugh was born 1909 in Cwlach Street Llandudno and in 1911 the family lived in Alexandra Road Llandudno and by 1914 the family had left the Alexandra Road address.

I think the cottage could be in Betws Y Coed but it might be better to stick with the facts that we know first before going down that route.
I would still suggest that you send an e-mail to Gwynedd Archives asking if they can let you know all the people registered to vote in 1930 and living at 2 Tre Ddafydd  Pen Y Groes.    Please let me know how you get on.
The 1891 shows William living in Caernarvonshire and I would suspect that he is living in Llandudno then as he was there in 1901.  Have you looked at the 1891 Census and if so what was his address?
If you have copies of the Conwy registered birth certificates does the address on it  fit in with the Glan Conwy address on the Census for 1881?

I can't do anything positive until after the 5th Jan 2015 as the Archives are closed until then.  Ancestry, Find my Past etc are available there for free but I tend to go to our local library where they are also free there too.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2014, 06:00:18 PM
I've been searching again for William Davies born in Glan Conway and seen the one born in 1876 at Lower Brickfield that Dave found in the 1881 Census, this I take it is the same person that appears in the 1901 Census living in Caroline Road.  I cannot though find him in the 1891 Census.
Sorry to put a spanner in the works Hugh but I've also found another William Davies born in Glan Conway but may be in 1875.  This William Davies lived at Trallwyn Farm and I've traced him through the 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census records and surprisingly enough in 1891 when he was 16 his occupation was a shoe maker.
I can't make out his occupation in the 1901 Census but he could have been a farmer as well as a shoe maker.    Can't trace him in the 1911 Census at the farm though.
Have you already come across this entry and discounted it?
The reason I ask is that Trallwyn overlooks the Carneddau Mountain range, also William's younger brother is called Hugh but that may just be a coincidence.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on December 28, 2014, 07:37:31 PM
Hopefully, I can clarify a point.  There is some confusion with Llansantffraid Glan Conwy and Eglwys Rhos parishes but it is not that the names changed.  The Census Return of 1881 is for Eglwys Rhos, not Llansantffraid Glan Conwy.  If you look  at the other properties listed on the page, they include Llanrhos Post Office, the Mostyn Arms (now the Links Hotel) and the Queen's Head (a long demolished pub situated next to Llanrhos Church).  Therefore, I believe "Lower Brickfield" to be the cottage which was situated roughly where Maenan Road joins Conway Road (now Llandudno). 



Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2014, 11:20:24 PM
I think you are correct with the location of Llanrhos (Eglwys-Rhos) and the address of lower Brick field is somewhere in that area but the Census records of 1881 show a William Davies  aged 5 and gives the place where born as Llansanffraid Glan Conwy so although the address is not in Glan Conwy the form does say that he was born there.

The other William Davies that I found today did live in Glan Conwy and at the age of 16 was a shoe maker according to the 1891 Census,  If it's complicated for us with all these names and addresses just imagine what it's like for Hugh so far away.

The strange thing I found out with the latest Willian Davies find was that the Census was recorded in Caernarfonshire and William lived in Denbighshire but the District was Creuddyn.   I never realised that Creuddyn also dealt with Glan Conwy before.

So at present there are two William Davies' who were shoe makers and born in Glan Conwy. One born in 1875 and one in 1876 it's a difficult one for Hugh who will have to consider all the facts available to him
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on December 29, 2014, 09:00:14 AM
Hugo - this may be a shot in the dark or wild speculation.  In the 1891 Census, there should be a Mr & Mrs Wynne living at what was then called Brickfield Cottage.  Mrs Wynne was originally Davies and hailed from Llandudno but had lived for a long period in Glan Conwy.  Could be some family connection on her side with one of the William Davies. (I know this from some other research I did some years ago). Perhaps she moved to Brickfield after her parents ??
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 29, 2014, 01:25:49 PM
Thanks Cambrian, any local info you can supply is always very helpful.  What I wanted to do was to trace where William was born in Glan Conway so I have worked backwards on the Census records and have used Dorothy Davies' name to do the search.  This made it easier as there were only about 12 people of that name in the Caernarvonshire and Denbighshire Census records but only one that matched exactly.
This is what I found and I'll list each one separately:-

1871 Census shows Edward (Grandfather) and Margaret living at No1 Brickfields  Llanrhos       (they were also there in the 1881 Census)

1871  Census shows Dorothy aged 16 living and working as a servant for a Richard Williams who lived at Tyn Y Celyn  Trallwyn   Glan Conwy

1871  Census shows Edward ,  Margaret, Dorothy and the rest of the children living at Marl Bach  Llandudno Junction

It's a small world Cambrian because we have both tried to help someone else on the forum and under the heading of Pensarn Farm they wanted to trace their relative "Bell Rogerson"    However their was a Davies connection with Marl Bach there too.

It doesn't help to trace William's birth address but I now have my own theory but no evidence whatsoever to back it up.  This is what I think has happened.
Dorothy left the family home at Brickfields when she was about 16 and went to live and work in Trallwyn Glan Conway.   She must have met someone there and at the age of 20 she became pregnant and had the baby there.  ( I think the other Davies family at Trallwyn may have been related).    Sometime after the birth she moved back to the family home at Brickfield Llanrhos and then appeared on the 1881 Census with William
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on December 29, 2014, 03:10:08 PM
I agree with your thoughts, Hugo.

A bit more info.

Edward and Margaret (1)'s daughter, Margaret (2) was born at Hendafarn, Llandudno on 7/12/1847.

Margaret (2) married David Wynne (b 12.12.1844 Eglwysbach) at Carmel Chapel, Conwy on 26/3/1869 and she died at Brickfield on 28/1/1903 - subsequently buried in Llanrhos Churchyard.

In the 1871 Census, David and Margaret Wynne were living at 2 Sea View, Glan Conway - it is quite possible that Dorothy went to her sister's home there for her confinement which would explain William's place of birth.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 29, 2014, 03:24:21 PM
That sounds very feasible Cambrian and if Hugh can match that on a birth certificate then it will be a great breakthrough.

Thanks also to your info re Eglwys-Rhos we know that the birth had to be registered in Conway so that's the key to finding William's birth.
Baptism records that I have been looking for only recorded people who chose to have the child baptised, it was not compulsory unlike the births which had to be legally recorded

I feel that we are getting somewhere now.     $good$

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on December 29, 2014, 10:57:10 PM
Just noticed a boo boo I made on pg 5,  the third picture of a Census is for 1861 and not 1871 as stated ( although the picture is correctly named)

There is still a large and related Davies family still  living in this area and they had a number of farms around here too.  It'll be interesting to see if Hugh can now get the correct birth certificate and the address shown on it and can obtain the names of the people listed in the 1930 Penygroes voters list.

That may help with  further searches
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 02, 2015, 05:03:36 PM
Hugh,  all being well I'm hoping to go to the Archives next week as there are a few things I want to look up.    If you find out anything new could you please post it on here so I don't duplicate anything you already know.
It might be best if we establish William's birth details eg. mother, address etc and that will give us something to build on.
I'll post any photos, findings etc on here once I've been to the Archives
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 05, 2015, 08:29:01 PM
Hugh,  I went to the Archives this afternoon but didn't get much luck with my searches.  The first thing I looked at was the 1910 rates book for Llandudno (they didn't have one for 1909)  what I was hoping to see were all the houses in Cwlach Street in order,  with William Davies being the occupier of 2 Fron Cottage.   It didn't work out like that as they had a few listed in one part of the rates book but in another listed under the heading at pg 98  "Lord Mostyn Small tenament  cottages"  was William Davies as being the occupier of one of the two cottages called "Vron Cottages"     but it didn't give me any indication of where it was in the street.   
You may have noticed various spellings of certain words, some in English and some in Welsh.  The correct form is Fron (pronounced as Vron) as there is no V in our Welsh alphabet.
I'll try the voters list sometime and see if that helps.
I had a look in the Street Indexes for Colwyn Bay, Deganwy, Llandudno Junction and Conwy just in case William had remained in the area, but there was no William Davies shoe maker listed.
I had a look at the Eglwysrhos Baptism record but there was no entry for William.
I then had a look in the Baptism records for Llansanffraid Glan Conwy and found one entry for a William Davies.  The entry was No 1257 on the 14th December 1879.    It read William son of William and Mary Davies of Brynrodyn.   Again there is no proof that this is your William but a Birth Certificate from 1876 may help.

Having no luck in the Archives I went to Glan Conwy and took the following photos:-

The first two are of Sea View Terrace where Margaret nee Davies lived with her husband David Wynne at No 2

The third photo is of Trallwyn Farm where the other William Davies a shoe maker born in 1875 lived, the Carneddau Mountain range is in the background.

The fourth photo is of Ty'n Celyn a farm where Dorothy Davies worked according to the 1871 Census.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 09, 2015, 02:30:27 AM
Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I had to get myself another laptop.  My 10 month old granddaughter got a bit carried away with helping Pop use the keyboard so I decided to put the laptop on the floor. Unfortunately, in the process, the computer slipped off the 'Stable Table' I was using and fell end on onto the tiled floor and I could not get it to work again. The laptop came with Windows 8 which I come to hate with a vengeance. I have also had to reload software etc.  I will send a more detailed response in the next day or two.

Regards, Hugh
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 09, 2015, 11:22:44 PM
I was at the open day today in Conwy Archives and asked about the Llandudno Register of Electors for 1910 but was told that they did not have it there.   They said that either the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon has it or it's at The National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth.
What I've done is e-mail the Gwynedd Archives to see if it is there.
As I see it the only way to work out exactly where 2 Fron Cottage was is to see the records and William's name and then work out where the house is in relation to the other houses there.
Good luck with your new laptop, I'm sure that you'll get used to it soon.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 12, 2015, 09:04:27 AM
I came across something on the computer recently and it was a Marriage between Dorothy Davies and Owen Owens in the Conwy Registration District in 1884.
I don't know if the Dorothy was your relation or not but I do know that there were only a very small number of Dorothy Davies' that were eligible for marriage then.  It does help when tracing the ancestors if they have a name which is uncommon.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2015, 03:56:40 PM
Hi Hugh,  I was at the Archives again but could find nothing new in the search for William's past and I now think that I have exhausted all the possibilities there.

You said that William was born in 1876 but what evidence have you got for that?    The reason I'm asking is because for instance the 1881 Census shows William as being 5 years old so you could presume that he was born 5 years earlier and that should make it 1876.

However The date of the 1881 census was the night of 3 April 1881  so if William had a birthday after the 4th April 1881 then he would have been born in 1875.   So from that there is a 75% chance that he was born in 1875 and not 1876

Bearing this in mind I went to the Register of Births, marriages and deaths in Llandudno and spoke to a very helpful and charming lady who had a look through the Register and computers.   As a result you can forget about the Conwy Registration records as they all had fathers and didn't fit the limited criteria that we know.

What we found was as shown below:-
13th November 1875   William Davies  born to Elizabeth Davies a Domestic Servant of  Llan  Llansanffraid
The ref  is Creuddyn 17/65     Entry 322

What I would like you to do now is double check everything to see if this matches in with your searches but please do not apply for any more Birth Certificates as hopefully you no longer need them.

Have you heard from the Gwynedd Archives yet about the 1930 Register of Electors?

The 1861 Census does show an Elizabeth Davies living at Marl Bach and she was born C 1858

By the way I have had an e-mail from the Gwynedd Archives and they have the 1910 Llandudno Register of Electors there and that may help to confirm where 2 Fron Cottage is.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2015, 09:58:49 PM
I've just had a look on Roots.uk  and seen an entry in the 1991 Census for an Elizabeth Davies that may be William's mother.   Because I haven't subscribed to it the info is limited and shows:-

Elizabeth Davies born 1858 age 33 occupation boot shoe maker  birth place Conway

I wonder where she was living on the date of the Census because although I have made numerous searches I haven't found William on the 1991 Census.

If William is also shown as living with her in 1991 then that may give you the conclusive proof you need

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 16, 2015, 11:55:06 AM
I have now found Elizabeth in the 1891 Census and she is living at 3 High Street Conwy with her sisters Mary and Jane.  They are all described as shoe boot makers but their place of birth is given as Conway so there is no proof that that Elizabeth is the Elizabeth that I have seen in the Register of births.
I have tried and tried to find William in the 1891 Census record but cannot find him in the Caernarfonshire or Denbighshire records perhaps you may have had better luck than me.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 16, 2015, 12:11:30 PM
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I have now found Elizabeth in the 1891 Census and she is living at 3 High Street Conwy with her sisters Mary and Jane.  They are all described as shoe boot makers but their place of birth is given as Conway so there is no proof that that Elizabeth is the Elizabeth that I have seen in the Register of births.
I have tried and tried to find William in the 1891 Census record but cannot find him in the Caernarfonshire or Denbighshire records perhaps you may have had better luck than me.

Hi Hugo,
I did send an email to the Gwynedd Archives about the 1930 Register of Electors. Their response was to send a reference to the form they referred you to (and subsequently posted to this thread).

I have been trying to validate all of my assumptions which in turn, has led to a tantalising possibility.  Firstly, the following has (as far as I can determine from the information availablefrom FindMyPast) been confirmed:
1911 Census  - Confirmed
1905 Marriage Certificate - Confirmed   
1901 Census - Confirmed

An initial search of the 1891 Census did not highlight anything definitive.  One entry listed a William Davies as having the correct birth town but an incorrect birth date (1885). A forward search showed this William still living with the Father on the property in 1901 so is ruled out due to the 1901 Census record confirmed above.

An initial search of the 1881 Census  showed only two possibilities:
1.   A William Davies aged 5 living with his grandparents. The age is incorrect but the birth place is a match.
2.   A William Davies aged 4 (correct age), having the correct birth place. However, a father is listed. William had a number of siblings listed in this Census.

Given the above are the only two possibilities, I used a less restrictive criteria to again search the 1891 Census and found a match to the second of the two 1881 Census possibilities. The match was consistent (in the main) to the parents and sibling listed in the 1881 record and showed that the family had moved to Mold, Chesire. William’s father was Richard Davies and his mother was Dorothy. However, no potential matches were found for possibility one as listed above.

I also decided that only one of the four Birth Certificates I ordered seemed to be a match with the birth year and birth town.  The parent’s names were Richard Davies and Dorothy Davies,  formerly Williams. This information was consistent with the second possibility identified in the 1881 Census. Following this family forwards indicates that Richard Davies died in 1891 (post 1891 Census). This 1891 Census record contains the only definitive record of a William Davies that can be matched up to the other records above.

One anomaly appears to be the record of a William Davies living with his grandparents on the night of the 1881 Census which has not been able to add any definitive information to this search.  However, the grandparents had a son, Richard Davies who was born around the same time as the Richard Davies listed as William’s father.  One inconsistency is that William’s father Richard is listed as being born in Ruthin Denbighshire (one record only), but as the son of the grandparents listed in the 1881 Census is listed as having a birth town of Eglwysfach, Denbighshire.

I guess the next step is to order a copy of the marriage certificate of Richard Davies and Dorothy Williams to confirm whether a relationship exists between that Richard and the ‘Grandparents’ of the 1881 Census record listinf William Davies as the Grandson.  Although this would indicate that William has been listed twice in the 1881 Census, it may well have been a misjudgement on the part of his parents or grandparents as to whether he should be included or not.

The above scenario seems to be the only one that fits the records available.  As usual, I welcome any comments or advice on these suppositions.

Regards to all, Hugh
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 16, 2015, 01:38:15 PM
Hugh, you have obviously gone to a lot of trouble and effort in your research for William but one of the problems with things like the Census records is that you cannot always be certain that the info is correct.
For example the 1841 Census has the ages rounded down on adults so someone who was really 44 say, would have their age shown as 40.
Also the age shown on the Census is the age they were at the date of the Census (usually up to the first 3 days in April) but as we have seen it doesn't tell you for definite the year that they were born as it could be 1 year earlier than first thought.
Another thing is that the Census records completed by the Head of the household were then transferred manually on to the records we view now and this is liable to human error unfortunately

These are the facts that I know:-
We know William was born in Llansanffraid Glan Conwy in 1876 or 1875
All births for Glan Conwy were registered in the Conway Registration office so the record of his birth is there
I called at the Registrar of Births Marriages and deaths whose office is now in Llandudno and all the records of the births for 1875 and 1876 were viewed on the computer.
They were then checked against the original entry in the Registry and the only one without a father mentioned in the record was William born to Elizabeth Davies and recorded on the 13th November 1875.
The address was written like this   Llan
                                                      Llansanffraid
I'm no expert on Glan Conwy and perhaps Cambrian may know but from the Welsh word "Llan"  I presume that it was somewhere in the area surrounding the Church.
I have seen the official record myself and I am as certain as I can be that this is your Grandfather but you have to draw up your own conclusions.

I'm disappointed with the Gwynedd Archives for not giving you that info free but don't pay for any searches there yet as I may go there myself to see about 2 Fron Cottage and I can find out about Tre Ddafydd at the same time
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on January 16, 2015, 02:59:11 PM
Hi Hugo and Hugh

I think Hugo is on the right track regarding Glan Conwy.  The village centre was - and is - generally referred to as "Llan" and there are two other points to bear in mind.  Firstly, the original parish of Llansantffraid Glan Conwy was of larger extent than the current one - extending as far as Dawn and Trofarth, so each settlement had its own name.  I suspect "Llan" eventually became "Glan Conway".  The second point is that the smaller houses and terraces did not always have names and numbers in those days so it is not too uncommon in the Census to see many folk all listed for the same location without any distinction as to dwelling.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 16, 2015, 06:32:01 PM
Thanks for that Cambrian, it's frustrating when you are looking for those smaller houses and terraces when they weren't named or numbered,

Hugh, as I've said I've been through all the William Davies born in 1875 or 1876 on the computer and also in the Registry that holds the original recording of the births and William born to Elizabeth is the only illegitimate person recorded.   I'm sure that's your Grandfather but where was he in 1891?

Elizabeth, Mary and Jane were the Davies living in Conway in 1891 and although their birthplace was shown as Conway I'm wondering if that info is true.    Edward Davies had 7 daughters you said, well Elizabeth and Mary were the names of two of them but did they have a daughter called Jane?

If they did have a daughter called Jane it may be just a coincidence with the Conway females but another coincidence is that they and William were all boot shoe makers.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on January 16, 2015, 07:20:55 PM
Luckily I have kept some notes on Eglwysbach families that I was researching some years ago.  I believe that Edward and Margaret Davies were both born in Eglwysbach, him in 1812 and her in 1817.  Does this tally with what has been gleaned from the Census details I wonder.  I'm not sure if this info helps other than to suggest that there was a geographical connection between the younger Margaret Davies and her future husband David Wynne both families originating from the same village.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 16, 2015, 07:57:47 PM
It does Cambrian, have a look at pg 5 and you'll see what I've posted.   The 1861 Census shows Edward and Margaret both from Eglwysbach and  5 of their 10  children,

In my last post I refer to Mary, Jane and Elizabeth living in Conwy in the 1891 Census all working as boot shoe makers and I was wondering if Edward & Margaret Davies had a daughter called Jane.

There seems to be a lot of connections and co incidents to what you and I have found on here.   Do you know if they had a daughter called Jane?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 16, 2015, 09:55:50 PM
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Luckily I have kept some notes on Eglwysbach families that I was researching some years ago.  I believe that Edward and Margaret Davies were both born in Eglwysbach, him in 1812 and her in 1817.  Does this tally with what has been gleaned from the Census details I wonder.  I'm not sure if this info helps other than to suggest that there was a geographical connection between the younger Margaret Davies and her future husband David Wynne both families originating from the same village.

Hi Cambrian.  The 1841 Census shows their birth years as 1811 and 1817. The 1851 Census shows 1813 and 1818. The 1861 and 1871 Census shows 1812 and 1817. The 1881 Census shows 1811 and 1818.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 16, 2015, 11:38:43 PM
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It does Cambrian, have a look at pg 5 and you'll see what I've posted.   The 1861 Census shows Edward and Margaret both from Eglwysbach and  5 of their 10  children,

In my last post I refer to Mary, Jane and Elizabeth living in Conwy in the 1891 Census all working as boot shoe makers and I was wondering if Edward & Margaret Davies had a daughter called Jane.

There seems to be a lot of connections and co incidents to what you and I have found on here.   Do you know if they had a daughter called Jane?

Well done Hugo!!

Edward and Margaret did have a daughter called Jane. Jane was their eldest child born in 1840. Elizabeth was born in 1858 and Mary was born in 1860. This would seem to be a completely different set of birth dates and birth order to the Mary, Jane and Elizabeth you found.

However, it is an exciting prospect that you have discovered a) a William Davies who was an illegitimate birth and b) the mother having an occupation that eventually William would adopt.  I will do some digging on the three sisters to see what I can find.  What was the birth date and place in the birth record you found of William Davies?  Is it possible to obtain a copy?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 17, 2015, 12:03:00 PM
Thanks Hugh,   I do think this William was your Grandfather but Elizabeth's occupation was listed as a domestic servant at the time the birth was registered.
The Elizabeth Davies who was the boot shoe maker in the 1891 may not be William's mother as the ages of her two sister's do not agree with those that you know for certain, so it's a bit more investigating for you.
I've copied and posted on here all the info that was recorded in the Register so I have no other info to report.   Under no circumstances can a photocopy of the Register be made so you would need to get a copy of the birth certificate.  I don't know how you would go about that but I would suggest that you phone the office up and discuss the matter with the person.

The Register Office, Town Hall, Lloyd Street, Llandudno, LL30 2UP
Offices are open 9.00 am - 5.00 pm Monday to Friday                                    E-mail      registration.services@conwy.gov.uk


There is obviously a fee for this purpose but the cost will depend on your personal circumstances and they will guide you through it.
Phone 01492 576525 (add international code)   and ask for Glenys.    When you speak to her tell her what you want and quote this:-
Ref  Creuddyn  17/65     Entry   322
She will then be able to go straight to the record that we found there
Good luck with that


Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 17, 2015, 01:31:36 PM
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Thanks Hugh,   I do think this William was your Grandfather but Elizabeth's occupation was listed as a domestic servant at the time the birth was registered.

Goodness me. What a journey.   

It starts in 1830 when a William Davies marries Elizabeth Griffith. By 1841, William’s occupation is listed as a Shoe Maker and they are living in High St Conway and have a number of children, Hugh 9, Mary 7, David 4, John 1 and Jane 15 (whom I assume is a servant).

By 1851, William is still a Shoe Maker but has added Parish Clerk to his duties. All the children from the 1841 Census are still living in the family home. In addition to these, Elizabeth 6, Jane 3 and William Taliesin 1 have also joined the family.

By 1861, William’s business appears to be blossoming. His occupation is listed as “Parsih Clerk and Boot and Shoemaker employing 5 men and the boy” (presumably a reference to his son David who is listed as a Shoemaker. Hugh and John are no longer living there and neither is Elizabeth who should be 16. Another Elizabeth 6 has been listed  - does this indicate the first Elizabeth has died.

The 1871 Census shows William as a “Master Shoemaker and Parish Clerk”. David and William have now moved on, and it would appear that the second Elizabeth has either passed on or is living elsewhere. This leaves William and Elizabeth with their children Mary, Jane and John J.

By 1881, his wife Elizabeth has passed away and his occupation no longer lists him as a Parish Clerk.  The only family members living with him are Mary, Jane, Elizabeth (the second Elizabeth), and a grandson, William T 7.

The 1991 census indicates that William has now also passed away and the sisters have switched business from the shoe and boot making business to the proprietors of the Bridge Hotel in Conway.

I also used North Wales BMD site which lists the birth of a William Taliesin Davies in 1874.  This name is the same as the son born to William and Elizabeth in 1850, and coincides with the 1881 Census.

Again, what a find Hugo! I cannot imagine that these people are not my grandfather’s relatives. There is too much coincidence involved. The only mystery is, as it has always been, where was William Davies in the 1991 Census? I have checked Prison Records and Poorhouse records, none of which seem to be relevant. Another possibility is that William became a Merchant Seaman and was not in the UK at the time of the 1891 Census. Potentially it could be a case of William spending the night in a location that was not appropriate to document, or indeed a simple oversight on the part of the ‘Head’ of the household William was staying in on the night of the Census.
I will be having another look at all the records and assumptions once my excitement dies down, but I must admit, the above scenarios look very favourable.

Later…

Okay, I am now more confused than ever. The North Wales BMD reference I found for a William Taliesin Davies (which I thought matches the William T Davies in the 1881 Census) has a reference of CONWY/08/72 (b.1874). The reference you have provided CREUDDYN/17/65 refers to a William Davies born in 1875. Will have another review of all of this.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 17, 2015, 05:09:28 PM
It's tricky Hugh and is getting a bit complicated.    The Davies family of Conwy doesn't quite match but could be related in some way to the Davies family whose Grandparents come from Eglwysbach.
You need to get the Birth Certificate of William Davies and see if there is any other info that you can gleam from it and then continue your search based on that.
Contact Glenys on that number I've provided and she'll guide you through the process and cost,  She's very helpful and can answer your questions on that entry.
One thing though Hugh is don't forget the time zones between the UK and Brisbane when you make the phone call.
Cambrian may come up trumps again with his research in Eglwysbach and it may help you to find William and Elizabeth in the 1891 Census
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 19, 2015, 10:32:56 AM
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It's tricky Hugh and is getting a bit complicated.    The Davies family of Conwy doesn't quite match but could be related in some way to the Davies family whose Grandparents come from Eglwysbach.
You need to get the Birth Certificate of William Davies and see if there is any other info that you can gleam from it and then continue your search based on that.
Contact Glenys on that number I've provided and she'll guide you through the process and cost,  She's very helpful and can answer your questions on that entry.
One thing though Hugh is don't forget the time zones between the UK and Brisbane when you make the phone call.
Cambrian may come up trumps again with his research in Eglwysbach and it may help you to find William and Elizabeth in the 1891 Census

I have contacted Glenys who remembered your latest research and was most helpful. I have purchased a copy of the Birth Certificate which will be posted to me in due course, but Glenys will email a scanned copy of the certificate which I should have tomorrow.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 19, 2015, 11:21:53 AM
That's great news Hugh, I bet you can't wait until you see the copy.    I thought that you'd find Glenys helpful as getting the copy records wasn't as straightforward as it would have been if you were living in the UK.
It'll be interesting to see if there is any more info to be obtained from the actual copy of the Birth Certificate
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 20, 2015, 08:09:32 AM
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That's great news Hugh, I bet you can't wait until you see the copy.    I thought that you'd find Glenys helpful as getting the copy records wasn't as straightforward as it would have been if you were living in the UK.
It'll be interesting to see if there is any more info to be obtained from the actual copy of the Birth Certificate

Hi Hugo. I have attached a copy (as sent to me by Glenys) of the birth certificate.  Unfortunately, it only contains minimal details - specifically the address which is "Llan Llansantffraid".  However, I remain upbeat and have begun a scan of the 1871 and 1881 Census records. Let me know if you have any insights into the attached certificate. For example why is their a "Llan" in front of "Llanssantffraid"? Thanks again.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 20, 2015, 11:16:21 AM
Thanks Hugh,  I have printed out the copy of the Birth Certificate which is exactly as shown in the Registry.  At least we know that William was born on 13th November 1875.
With regards to the Llan Llansanffraid it's not a mistake or anything but is exactly how Cambrian has described it.   The Church of St Braid's is in the middle of the village of Llansanffraid and the immediate area around the Church is called  Llan
The houses are mainly small cottages and are quite old.
For example 2 Sea View Cottage where Margaret Wynne (nee Davies) lived is not far away from the Church but I'm not sure if that is in the area generally called Llan.
Cambrian is the expert on Glan Conwy and he can tell you the location of the area called Llan
It might be worth having a go at this,  William was born 1875 so Elizabeth should appear on the 1871 Census and hopefully living in Llansanffraid Glan Conwy.    If you go on the Census for 1871 you can scroll back and forth until you find an Elizabeth Davies that fits the description of a possibility for William's mother eg age  and location.
It's only a wild chance though because often unmarried women were sent away to have their babies to save embarrassment to their parents.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2015, 02:52:41 PM
I went to the Library today and had a go on Find my past and Ancestry as searches there are free.  I tried variations of William by himself and William with Elizabeth but couldn't find a trace of William in the Wales or England Census of 1891.
I'm completely baffled as to why his name hasn't appeared in these various searches and just hope that you have more luck than me.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on January 21, 2015, 07:19:07 PM
Hugo,

Maybe I have missed something, but I had assumed "our" William (b 1875 Glan Conwy) had been traced to Trallwyn Farm for 1881, 1891, 1901 cenuses.

Just reverting to the "Llan" issue.  As I have mentioned "Llan" was a generic name used for the Village centre - hence "Top Llan Road".
Whilst the many public houses and a few shops are identifiable, I think the small cottages rarely had names or numbers in those days - everyone knew where everyone lived! In the more rural area of the parish it was different.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2015, 10:53:04 PM
Cambrian,  if we think it's confusing for us living here just imagine how it is for Hugh down there in Australia.

Apparently we have found two William Davies' both born in Glan Conwy in 1875 and shown in later Census records as boot shoe makers

In the 1881 Census living at Lower Brickfield  is a William Davies,  Grandson of Edward Davies head of the family.   According to Hugh Edward had 10 children, 7 girls and 3 boys.    One of the girls is called Elizabeth and is  old enough to have been William's mother by 1875.

In the 1881 Census living at Trallwyn Farm is another William Davies the same age as his namesake.  He is described in that Census as the son of William Davies the head of the family.  William Snr's  wife was called Hannah and there is no mention of an Elizabeth living there.

However in the 1901 Census, William from Lower Brickfield is living in Caroline Road Llandudno  and the other William is still living on the farm

It looks like the William we are looking for is the one from Lower Brickfield but Elizabeth is the key to this.  We first thought that William's mother could have been Dorothy who worked in Glan Conwy but the Birth Certificate has proved it is Elizabeth Davies

To confuse the issue further I found an Elizabeth Davies in the 1891 Census, her occupation was a boot shoe maker like William but she lived in Conwy and according to the 1891 Census was born in Conway and not Glan Conway.  If she had of been William's mother she would have been aged about 17 at the time of the birth

I've tried numerous times but cannot find a William Davies and or Elizabeth Davies in the 1891 Census who meets the criteria but haven't had any luck there

I would think that Church Street, Pentai  and top Llan Road are the areas where Elizabeth lived at the time of the Registration of the birth
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 27, 2015, 07:16:54 AM
I have been going to some lengths to solve the puzzle of William Davies.  I have gone forward on the assumption that the Birth Certificate received recently is in fact my Grandfather.

My first step was to undertake a search of the 1881 Census using William Davies, 1875 +- 1yr, and Birth County of Denbighshire or Caernarvonshire. A total of 79 possibilities were returned each of which was examined for a possible match. Any match which listed a father was discounted.  Only one entry matched the known facts. That was the one mentioned on a number of occasions in this post - a William Davies (Grandson) Lower Brick Field Eglwys-Rhos Conway.

For this entry to be correct then Edward and Margaret Davies (Grandparents) must have had a daughter Elizabeth who was of a suitable age in 1875 to give birth to William Davies.  A search of the 1861 Census found Elizabeth aged 3. Her birth town shown in the original image was EglwysRhos, Denbighshire.

Elizabeth was not living with her parents in 1871 or 1881 according to the respective Census records. So could well be working as a Domestic Servant during this time (the occupation of the mother in the birth certificate as at 1875). The next step was to attempt to locate Elizabeth in the 1871 Census record. She would not have been of an age to have married so should be listed as Elizabeth Davies. The search criteria returned a total of 56 records. The transcripts did not include the birth town which had to be done using the original Image. Only two records were deemed to be a possible match:

The first match shows an Elizabeth Davies working as a Domestic Servant (General) in the Vale Street Anchor Inn, Denbigh, St Asaph, Denbighshire. Her birth place is recorded as Denbighshire, Denbigh, and Year of Birth 1857.  The second match shows an Elizabeth Davies working as a Domestic Servant in Portland Place, Denbigh, St Asaph, Denbighshire. Her birth place is recorded as Denbighshire, Denbigh, and Year of Birth 1857.

The first match would have provided a opportunity to meet many "suitors" assuming she was still there in early 1875. The second match is a bit of a mystery. She was a servant in a household comprised of William H Breadew (Head, 30, Mason, b.Surrey, Kensington); Margaret (Wife, 32, b.Denbigh, Llanfair T.H); Thomas Breadew (Son, 10mths, b.Denbigh, Denbigh); Charlotte Breadew(Mother, 59, Surrey, Lambeth); John Breadew (Boarder, 24, Surrey, Lambeth).  Where is the mystery? I tried to find out a bit more about the Breadew family but kept coming up with blanks. In the end, I used the Find My Past option for searching all of their records using only the surname of Breadew. The only matches were those for the 1871 Census as listed above. One explanation is that the original image has not been transcribed accurately. The original image is not one of great quality so could be the reason. I have attached this image below and would welcome any suggestions for possible surname.  So, this is where I am at the moment. After the birth of William, Elizabeth could well have married. The mystery of the absence of a William Davies match in the 1991 Census remains just that, a mystery. As usual, any comments, suggestions or corrections are more than welcome.


Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 27, 2015, 02:20:23 PM
You have been really busy Hugh and at the moment I haven't got any suggestions to help you unfortunately but will try and think about it.

You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 28, 2015, 05:20:31 AM
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You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.

Hi Hugo,

I must admit, I have become very confused over the variations in town names. For example, the original image of the 1861 Census showing Elizabeth Davies at Marl Bach shows "Denbighshire EglwysRhos" in the Where Born column. Glan Conwy is also known as Llansanffraid and also known as Denbigh even though on a map Denbigh an Llansanffraid seem very far apart. Eglwys Rhos is also known as Llanrhos.

So I am wondering what other possible names Eglwys Rhos could be known as on the Census records? I will revisit the 56 records located in the 1871 Census and have a closer look at the birth towns looking for Llanrhos and any other suggestions forthcoming.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2015, 02:52:36 PM
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You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.

Hi Hugo,

I must admit, I have become very confused over the variations in town names. For example, the original image of the 1861 Census showing Elizabeth Davies at Marl Bach shows "Denbighshire EglwysRhos" in the Where Born column. Glan Conwy is also known as Llansanffraid and also known as Denbigh even though on a map Denbigh an Llansanffraid seem very far apart. Eglwys Rhos is also known as Llanrhos.

So I am wondering what other possible names Eglwys Rhos could be known as on the Census records? I will revisit the 56 records located in the 1871 Census and have a closer look at the birth towns looking for Llanrhos and any other suggestions forthcoming.

I can understand your confusion regarding the names of places, it's easy for us because we were born in the area but I'll try and explain it as best as I can,

Firstly,  Llansanffraid Glan Conwy,  is sometimes shown in the Census as Llansanffraid,  It can also be shown just as Glan Conwy.   Nowadays it is more commonly known just as Glan Conwy.      In the days of the Census that we are able to see up to 1911,  it was in the County of Denbighshire.   If you have seen it on the Census shown as Llansanffraid   Denbigh  then this is incorrect and it should have read Llansanffraid  Denbighshire.

Look again at the Census records for 1861 and you'll see at the top right hand corner of the form  " the undermentioned houses are situated within the Boundaries of the Parish of Eglwysrhos"
If you look below that for Marl Bach and  see across the page at "Where born"  you will see  Denbighshire Eglwysbach and that is correct for Edward Davis and Margaret Davies.
However the entries for every one in the family below the parents are incorrect.   Llandudno and the Parish of Eglwysrhos are both in Caernarvonshire.
This happens on Census forms and you can't always take them as gospel as they have only been copied on to the form you see by a clerk and in those two cases you have quoted they both contain human errors.
We have the advantage here of our local knowledge on the area.

Eglwysrhos was a parish that contained a number of areas such as parts of Llandudno, Llanrhos, Tywyn, Deganwy and what is now Llandudno Junction but for Census purposes I've only seen Eglwysrhos mentioned. 

If only the Birth Certificate had mentioned where Elizabeth was born could have made the search a lot easier.    The Elizabeth it may be is in the 1861 Census living at Marl Bach but she was born in Eglwysrhos  Caernarvonshire
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 02, 2015, 02:37:30 AM
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I can understand your confusion regarding the names of places, it's easy for us because we were born in the area but I'll try and explain it as best as I can,

Thanks Hugo.  We have been on a short break and also have a new granddaughter. So have only just started to get back into things.  I have found an Elizabeth Davies in the 1871 Census who is listed as being born in "Conway, N' Wales". Would this be a possible match for Eglwys Rhos?  I cannot find any other potential match.

I will probably start chasing the Grand Parents Edward and Margaret back in time in the meantime.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 02, 2015, 03:32:08 PM
Firstly, congratulations on the birth of your Granddaughter and I hope that mother and daughter are doing well.      That's a good excuse for a barbie and a few beers!      Z**

Conway was not part of the Parish of Eglwysrhos.   The Elizabeth that you have found may be the same Elizabeth that we found in the 1881 Census.   That Elizabeth lived at 3 High Street Conway and was a boot shoe maker according to the 1881 Census.
What address did you find Elizabeth living at in the 1871 Census?

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 02, 2015, 03:52:42 PM
Hugh,   I've just been looking at my print out for the 1881 Census concerning the Davies family from 3 High Street Conway.     The family were boot shoe makers as you have found out already.
William Davies was the Head of the household and he has a daughter called Elizabeth whose age at the Census date was 24.    Under her name it looks like William with an initial after the name but I can't make it out.
William the Grand child's age is given as 7 and the birthplace was Conway but that doesn't tie in with  the birth certificate for William who was born in Nov 1875 at Llansanffraid.
It remains a mystery for now anyway
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 03, 2015, 02:06:07 AM
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Hugh,   I've just been looking at my print out for the 1881 Census concerning the Davies family from 3 High Street Conway.     The family were boot shoe makers as you have found out already.
William Davies was the Head of the household and he has a daughter called Elizabeth whose age at the Census date was 24.    Under her name it looks like William with an initial after the name but I can't make it out.
William the Grand child's age is given as 7 and the birthplace was Conway but that doesn't tie in with  the birth certificate for William who was born in Nov 1875 at Llansanffraid.
It remains a mystery for now anyway

It was a William T Davies. Refer to Reply #94 on Page 7:

Okay, I am now more confused than ever. The North Wales BMD reference I found for a William Taliesin Davies (which I thought matches the William T Davies in the 1881 Census) has a reference of CONWY/08/72 (b.1874). The reference you have provided CREUDDYN/17/65 refers to a William Davies born in 1875. Will have another review of all of this.

Next time you are at the archives would you be able to check if the William with reference of CONWY/08/72 has a father listed or not - but only if this is not inconvenient or difficult.  The absence of a matching Elizabeth Davies born in Eglwys Rhos in the 1881 Census could be a result of a marriage or her death, but I cannot understand the absence of a match in the 1871 census which was 4 years before she gave birth to William and would still have Davies as her surname. Oh well, back to research.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 03, 2015, 10:27:32 PM
I called at the Archives today but unfortunately they cannot say whether a father was listed from those reference numbers.   The Birth Certificates and Baptism records would say if a father was named.

In the case of the Birth Certificate recently received for William, the father was not listed.    I believe that you were on the right track all along with the 1881 Census at Brickfields.      The year of birth,  place of birth on the 1881 Census all agree with the birth certificate and there was a daughter called Elizabeth of the right age to be William's mother.

I had a look at the burial indexes for Llanrhos  (Eglwysrhos) and Llansanffraid to see if Elizabeth was buried there as she may even have died in childbirth or prior to 1881 but there was no record of her burial at these Cemeteries.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 04, 2015, 07:40:01 AM
Another possibility is that Elizabeth subsequently married and had a different surname in later Censuses.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 04, 2015, 08:45:09 AM
It's more likely that that happened Cambrian,  we know the year ( +1)  and the place where Elizabeth was born so it's possible to find out when she got married.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 08, 2015, 12:40:04 PM
Hugh,  we seem to be stuck on finding William in the 1991 Census and also Elizabeth so do you have any other addresses in Wales for your relatives?
You did mention Betws Y Coed earlier and the fact that your father worked in the quarries.      Penygroes is in an area where slate quarrying was a big employer in those days but there were many quarries all over North Wales.   Some were slate quarries and others stone depending of course on the location.
Have you had a reply from Gwyndaf, if not it might be ok to give him a reminder?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 13, 2015, 08:05:53 AM
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Hugh,  we seem to be stuck on finding William in the 1991 Census and also Elizabeth so do you have any other addresses in Wales for your relatives?
You did mention Betws Y Coed earlier and the fact that your father worked in the quarries.      Penygroes is in an area where slate quarrying was a big employer in those days but there were many quarries all over North Wales.   Some were slate quarries and others stone depending of course on the location.
Have you had a reply from Gwyndaf, if not it might be ok to give him a reminder?

I mentioned in earlier posts that the 1911 Census shows William and Catherine Davies living in Llandudno with three children - Edward, Richard and Hugh (my father). After my father's death his brother Richard sent a letter to my mother in which he said that he "loved the mountains he could see from his family's front door and in fact had been born in those mountains in his grandmother's cottage."  As mentioned, I'm not sure where the family's front door was in his memories, but would either be somewhere in Llandudno or in Penygroes. A search for Richard Davies showed possible records for Betws Y Coed and Colwyn Bay, both in Conwy Count Borough (Llandudno).  It would seem that the Bets Y Coed seems to be the most mountainous of the two.  This is where the mention of Betws Y Coed was raised.  I think a copy of Richards birth certificate could be very enlightening.

In the interim, I have used a filter for the 1891 Census for a William Davies (variants on both first name and surname), having a Birth County of either Denbighshire or Caernarvonshire and a Birth Year of 1885 +-2yrs. This has returned 94 matches. I have put together a table of these matches and appended the relationship of the match to the head of the household and the Birth Town of the match. I have attached this in the hope that someone can identify potential matches for my grandfather William Davies.

I will go through this list myself and post my suggestions. But others with more knowledge of town, counties, parishes etc. may have other suggestions.

Regards to all
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 13, 2015, 07:48:37 PM
Hugh,  I have checked every entry and the only one it can be is No 25.     That ticks all the known boxes but does throw up something else.
The reasons I think it is No 25 are listed below:-
 
Full name                   William Davies       ( that's shown on the birth certificate)
Birth year                   1875                    (      ditto   )                                   
Birth County               Denbighshire     ( Llansanffraid was in Denbighshire )
Registration District     Conway            ( births for Llansanffraid had to be registered in Conway)
Parish                          Llansanffraid Glan Conway        (  that was the parish where William was born )
County                        Caernarvonshire                 ( that was the county for Conway the Registration District )
Birth town                   Llansanffraid                       ( that was the town where William was born )

Now every column ticks the boxes but no other entry comes anywhere near it.

There is another column for relationship and this shows "son William Widower"      Now I have no proof of this but my theory is that "William Widower"  is your William's father but it does not state William Snr's surname, but as he was a widower and not married to Elizabeth this would make William Jnr illegitimate and that also ties in with the birth certificate that you have.    This then ticks all the boxes on the form
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 13, 2015, 08:09:51 PM
Yes- just been studying the list.  I agree with Hugo.  That seems to be the only logical explanation.  There is a view of the mountains (Tal y Fan etc) from the houses along Llanrwst Road in Glan  Conwy which might explain the reference to William's memory of them.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 14, 2015, 03:00:42 PM
This is the present day view from the A470 main road where Sea View Terrace is, the Carneddau mountains are across the river
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Fester on February 18, 2015, 06:56:04 PM
Hugo,  I received a visitor whilst at work today, he can shed light on this subject.
He says you are frustratingly close on this thread, but he likened it to bouncing off the wire at darts!   Oooh so close!

I have his number, but he didn't want to post online.... so if you email me, I will give you his number, and you could call him to discover what he has to say on this subject.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2015, 10:13:15 PM
Thank you very much Fester, that's really good of you and I'll send a PM.      I've also been given a name and a number by my cousin but haven't been able to follow it up yet but will do asap.      $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 19, 2015, 10:32:41 AM
Thank you Fester and Hugo.

The match (#25) that you thought was a possibility is one I have looked at previously. There is a 1901 record for this William Davies which is quite separate from the 1901 William Davies record based in Llandudno.

I am intrigued by the last two responses from Fester and yourself.  Hopefully someone will provide the proverbial "missing link".

From a pure research perspective,  the Birth Certificate I received recently shows William Davies as having a birth date in November 1885. It would seem that most Census collections are made early in the year ~ April.  When birth years are shown, it seems that the calculation is simply the current age at the time of the Census subtracted from the Year of the Census.  This being the case then any reference to William Davies (born in November) would be 1876, not 1875.

Looking at the list of 106 possibilities published previously, there is no match based on this premise.

I am beginning to doubt whether the 1901 Census record I have been relying on (particularly the Llansaintffraid birth place) is the correct one. I will investigate whether the link to #25 1891 record is a more probable one. Although this link does provide a Father record.  AAARRRGGGGHH!!!

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Fester on February 19, 2015, 11:29:01 AM
Hugo, if you enable the email link in your profile,  you can email me directly...
The chap who visited me, (I have his name, but he might not appreciate me posting it here) seemed a very genuine chap, who had gone a long way out of his way to find me, to pass this message to you.
I think it is well worth following up.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
Hugh, just a pointer.   The birth certificate for William shows his birth as 13th NOV 1875.   The next Census and the first one he would appear on is 1881.
This Census was completed on the 3rd April 1881 and William was 5 on that date as his 6th birthday would have been on 13th Nov 1881 after the Census date,
This ties in exactly with the William living at Brickfields with his Grandparents so we are still on the right track.
No 25 on that list you provided is the only one that matches all the boxes,  there is no other entry that comes anywhere close.   He is your William.
I am waiting for a reply to my PM to Fester and will follow that up with interest.   I have also received a PM from my cousin and as a result I will phone the person who may hold info that may help in the search.  I won't do that until I get a reply from Fester though.
Please recheck your dates and they should match with what I've said above
The birth place of William at Llansanffraid is correct so concentrate on that but bear in mind the names that it can be called.  the full title is Llansanffraid Glan Conway, but it may appear as  Llansanffraid or just Glan Conway

When the Census forms are undertaken, they are done in areas like townships.   Trallwyn is one of those and as the only name I knew there in the 1871 was a William Davies who lived at Trallwyn Farm I decided to go all the way through the 500 plus entries.
Unfortunately it didn't cover the area of Llan in the middle of Glan Conway village.
The reason I did this was because I just had a hunch that Elizabeth the domestic servant may have been the housekeeper for the widower William (surname not known) and your Grandfather may have been the result.
I need the name of some one living in Llan in 1871 before I can do a similar search again.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2015, 11:34:45 AM
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Hugo, if you enable the email link in your profile,  you can email me directly...
The chap who visited me, (I have his name, but he might not appreciate me posting it here) seemed a very genuine chap, who had gone a long way out of his way to find me, to pass this message to you.
I think it is well worth following up.

Thanks Fester, I've done that and hope that it works.  The PM is on it's way
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2015, 12:12:15 PM
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Hugo, if you enable the email link in your profile,  you can email me directly...
The chap who visited me, (I have his name, but he might not appreciate me posting it here) seemed a very genuine chap, who had gone a long way out of his way to find me, to pass this message to you.
I think it is well worth following up.

Thanks Fester, I've done that and hope that it works.  The PM is on it's way

I've received the PM so thank you very much for going to the trouble of contacting me.  I'll follow it up asap
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2015, 02:01:20 PM
Just reread this thread and Cambrian at the top of pg 6 has actually provided the names of two people living in or near the Llan area of Glan Conway.     They are David Wynne and his wife Margaret (nee Davies and possibly William's Aunt)
Don't know when I can get to the Library to do that search that I referred to.   It will involve looking for Elizabeth Davies there and seeing if there is also a widower called William living at that address.
It's time consuming, but the process needs to be done to eliminate  this from the search.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 19, 2015, 05:08:43 PM
Hugo

If it helps, the 1871 Census shows Trallwyn as having a William Davies as head.  He is a 36 year old farmer and he has a wife, Hannah, also 36.  They have a fairly large household (his mother, several children, servants and a nurse) but no Elizabeth Davies.

There are numerous descendants of David and Margaret Wynne living in Llandudno.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 19, 2015, 08:07:17 PM
Thanks Cambrian,  that was the William Davies that I was using to search through every household in that area but unfortunately the Census didn't cover the area of Llan.
Frustratingly too is that William Davies the head  had a son also called William and in the 1891 Census the son was a boot/shoe maker but he can be discounted.
I'll use Margaret and David Wynne to gain access to the 1871 Census but don't know when I'll be able to go to the Library next.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2015, 11:22:46 PM
Hugh,  I have no access to Census records at the moment and don't know when I'll be able to go to the library to search either.
I wonder if you can do me a favour and search the 1841 and 1851 Census records for me using this criteria:-
1851 Census
Edward Davies   Head   born Eglwysbach  Denbighshire about 1812
Margaret Davies wife     born Eglwysbach  Denbighshire about 1817
Margaret Davies daughter  born Llandudno  Caernarvonshire about 1846

1841   Census
Edward Davies            same details as above
Margaret Davies wife   same details as above

The Census records will be carried out in the Conway District in Caernarvonshire and I expect that the addresses when you find them will be in the Parish of Eglwysrhos

What I want to find out are  the addresses where they are living and who is living there for those years.

I'll explain if you get that info for me.       
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2015, 03:55:26 PM
It's ok Hugh, I don't need you to look for that info for me now.   I've done a small subscription and found Edward & Margaret Davies in the 1851 Census living at Marl Bach in Eglwysrhos.
I can't find them in the 1841 Census though but I don't really need that info now.  There was an Edward & Margaret Davies who married in 1840 in the Llanrwst Registration District as they both lived in Eglwys Bach at the time and they may be your G G Grandparents.
I'll post something on here later as I'm just going out for a while
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 22, 2015, 05:37:33 PM
The name I was given by Fester and my cousin turned out to be the same person.  He has been reading the thread on the Davies family and was very kind enough to share the information with me.  On Friday I phoned up and had a very interesting and fascinating chat with him.   The information hasn’t enabled me to trace William between  1881 to 1901 but has given me a wealth of information about William’s direct family that Hugh will appreciate down there in Oz.
The Davies family is a large family of a mainly farming background and the family had many farms in the local area.  That area is in the eastern part of the present day Llandudno Junction but in those early days before the railway came Llandudno Junction didn’t exist.  Instead there were townships of Marl, Pensarn and Pabo and others too.    The Davies had a number of farms in very close proximity,  Marl Farm,  Marl Bach, Maes  Glas ,  Esgyryn Farm  and the Pensarn Farm ( another topic on this forum)
I was told that the Davies’ owned and run the farms, the biggest and main one being Marl Farm.      I’ve just found the info I wanted from the 1851 Census and Edward & Margaret were living at Marl Bach then as they were in the 1861 Census.     As far as I can ascertain they didn’t ever live in any of the other farms mentioned above so I’m assuming that it was Marl Bach  that was commonly known in Welsh as Ty Saith Chwaer  ( house of the seven sisters) on account of the fact that all seven sisters lived there.   I was told that some of the sisters may have married into farming backgrounds as was the practise then and one of the farms was Fferm Bach in Llandudno while another may have been Pyllau Farm on the Great Orme in Llandudno.
There is another thread on here with someone searching for Pensarn Farm and their relative William Bell Rogerson married  Anne Jane Davies and farmed the land there.   Of the farms mentioned Pensarn Farm has been demolished and Marl Bach is just a ruin (see photos)  the other 3 properties are still there but only Marl Farm is still a working farm and the others are private residences.
A public footpath shown in an early O/S map ran from Pensarn Chapel to Egyryn Fawr farm and may have been a route that the Rogerson family took to see their Davies family relations who lived further up the hill.
Thanks again for the info provided by this person and it was nice to meet him again after so long.   It seems Hugh, that you have got direct or indirect links with people who have posted on the forum
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2015, 08:05:53 AM
Hugh, you probably know the info from the Census records but I'll just post them again:-
1851 Census and living at Marl Bach were:-
Edward Davies Head  age 38  born Eglwysbach  Denbighshire
Margaret   "      wife           33             "
Jane           "                      10              "
Anne          "                        8              "
Ellen           "                        6              "
Richard       "                        5              "
Margaret     "                        4              Llandudno    Caernarvonshire
Hugh           "                        1                   "                      "

The 1861  Census still at Marl Bach shows the daughters Jane, Anne and Ellen to have left but adds:-
Dorothy    Davies  daughter age 6     born  Eglwysrhos
Elizabeth      "           "                 3                  "
Mary            "            "                 1                  "

By the time of the 1871 Census the family had moved to Brickfields and only
Edward & his wife and their son Edward aged 7 born in Eglwysrhos were living there with the Grandchild Anne Parry aged 2

The more I read the thread the more I'm convinced that you have been on the right track all along.  Now that I've seen the 1851 Census, I know that William's Grandparents had 7 daughters and 3 sons and now I know their names.
The sons were Richard,  Hugh and Edward so it seems more than a coincidence that William called his first 3 sons after his 3 uncles.
If you are tracing the 1841 Census Hugh, then the family of William Snr, Margaret and daughter Jane should be in the Eglwysbach area of Denbighshire.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2015, 06:57:26 PM
I was at the Conwy Archives today and looked at the Burial Indexes for St Hilary's Church at Llanrhos ( Eglwysrhos)  and also the two Cemeteries in Eglwysbach but I couldn't see any grave for William's Grandparents Edward and Margaret Davies.
While I was looking through the graves in the Llanrhos Burial Index I came across this interesting but sad inscription and thought that I would share it with you.    The inscription was in Welsh and I'll translate it for you:-
In memory of Mary
daughter of Edwart and Marged Davies of Marl Bach
Born 1st January 1853
Died September 20th 1857
The names on the inscription are Welsh but that is how they appeared.
 
I then visited the grave at Plot J040 and took these photos of the grave for you.  Interestingly enough someone has been tending the grave as you can see from the flowers put on the grave.
I couldn't understand why Edward and Margaret weren't in the indexes for Eglwysrhos and Eglwysbach so I had a look in the Burial Index for Llangystennin Church and found this at grave  A009.     Again it was in Welsh so this is the English Translation:-

In memory of Edward Davies  Bodysgawen   Pydew,  he died November 13th 1879 aged 63
Also Margaret Davies his wife she died May 19th 1902 aged 81 and buried May 23rd.

Pydew is in the Parish of Llangystennin and although it is only a mile or two from where they lived at the Brickfields they must have moved to Pydew and were buried in the Parish Church.

In the photo of the hillside Maes Glas is the propert on the right that was once owned by the Davies' and Marl Bach is hidden in the trees on the far left of the photo
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2015, 08:43:09 PM
I was looking at the notes I have made and Mary Davies was born in January 1853 and died in September 1857 aged just 4. 

In the 1861 Census there is a Mary Davies  aged 1 and she is the daughter of Edward & Margaret and she must have been named after the young Mary who died a few years before.

When I can, I'll visit Llangystennin Church and take a photo of the grave of Edward and Margaret but on reflection I'm not sure now if they are William's Grandparents as that William died in 1879 yet in the 1881 Census William was still alive and living at Brickfields.
It's so frustrating!    ???
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 24, 2015, 06:31:46 AM
Once again I am humbled at the effort every one of you continue to make.  I must admit to shedding a few tears at the photos and translated inscriptions of what appears to be my distant great-great-great grandparents. I have been looking at all the info I have been given or have amassed from the internet.  I have even purchased a copy of Legacy 8.0 to try to become a bit more organised.  I have started to enter data (whilst fretting over the recent Category 5 - worst possible- Cyclone which landed north of Brisbane. Minimal affect on Brisbane but devastating for the towns where it made land).

In this process I have noticed that there appears to be a number of confusing inconsistencies so instead of hitting the list with a swag of questions, I thought I would start with Edward and Margaret.  In 1841, the Census image shows "Parish of Eglwys Fach Township of Cefn y Coed". The street name is transcribed as "P???adicey".  I tried to find the street name using Google Maps, but was surprised to find that Eglwys Fach was near Aberdovey, and Cefn-y-Coed is located in Bangor.  Are these location correct?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2015, 07:52:56 AM
Hugh, Eglwysbach is a small village in the Conwy Valley that joins on to Glan Conwy and is south of that village.
Unfortunately there are a number of Eglwysbach or Eglwysfach's in Wales.  In English the word means "Little Church" but the Eglwysbach that your relatives were from is in the village in Denbighshire.
There have been some changes in the County or "shire" name in recent years and Eglwysbach is now in the County of Conwy, but for your research purposes it is Denbighshire.

A lot of villages in Wales also didn't have street names in the 1841's just names of houses as everyone seemed to know each other.  I'll try and find the Census details for 1841 and 1891 at the Archives as I have to go there again this week as I've left something there.  (another senior moment)

Don't struggle with place names etc as there are people here who know the area.  In fact the distance between Eglwysbach and Llanrhos is less than 9 miles and Marl and Glan Conwy are  in between the two so it's only a small area where Edward and Margaret lived.

I hope that you won't be affected by the cyclone but it must be horrendous for those that are.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2015, 10:59:59 AM
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When I can, I'll visit Llangystennin Church and take a photo of the grave of Edward and Margaret but on reflection I'm not sure now if they are William's Grandparents as that William died in 1879 yet in the 1881 Census William was still alive and living at Brickfields.
It's so frustrating!    ???

I just want to correct this posting as it is misleading.  It should of course have read  "  on reflection I'm not sure now if they are                                                William's Grandparents as that Edward   died in 1879 yet in the 1881 Census Edward was still alive and living at Brickfields".             :-[                                              .     
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 24, 2015, 07:34:34 PM
Hugo

I am fairly sure that Margaret Davies (later Wynne) (daughter of Edward and Margaret) was born 7.12.1847 at Hendafarn. This property was located near Black Gate on the Great Orme.  It might be worth checking the 1851 census for Hendafarn (could also be spelt Hen Dafarn) to see if the family was there. If they had a Llandudno connection, possibly Edward and Margaret (snr) were buried on the Great Orme.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2015, 07:59:49 PM
Thanks Cambrian, I've found Edward & Margaret Davies in the 1851 Census  and they were at Marl Bach but I can't trace them in the 1841 Census
I checked the Burial Indexes for them at St Tudno's on the Great Orme and St Hilary's in Llanrhos as well as all the Cemeteries in Eglwysbach.
It was when I was checking the Llangwystennin one that I came across a Grave for Edward and Margaret Davies and thought that I had found their grave.  The dates they were born fitted, but it said that Edward died in 1879 and we know from the 1881 Census that Edward was alive and living at Brickfields so I'm back to square one.
The Edward buried in Llangystennin lived at Bodysgawen Pydew but Williams Grandfather may have moved from Brickfields  after 1881 so at the moment I'm looking at Census records for 1841 and 1891 but am not having much luck.
Hen Dafarn is an 18th century building with a lot of history but I'll use Margaret Wynne's name to try and trace Elizabeth in the 1871 Census at Llan Glan Conwy
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 24, 2015, 08:53:38 PM
Hugo, the Wynnes appear to have been in Glan Conwy for the 1881 census and then at Brickfield for the 1891.  I wonder if Edward and Margaret died between these years and the younger couple took over the tenancy.

I have a note that Margaret (junior) was living in Glan Conwy at the 1861 census.  In 1871, there were at 2 Sea View:

David Wynne 25 Labourer b Eglwysfach
Margaret Wynne 23 wife b Llandudno
Jane Wynne 2 daughter b Llandudno
William Wynne 3 mths son b Llansantffraid

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2015, 09:39:31 PM
You could be correct Cambrian because in 1891 Edward Davies would have been 75 and too old for farming but if he died where was he buried?   The only Cemetery in the area I didn't check was the old Baptist one in Glanwyddan so I'll have a look at that one next.
I was looking through one of the Census records but can't remember which year, but as I was scrolling through I could see two Brickfields there.   I'll check ancestry when I go to the Archives next and see if I have more luck
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 24, 2015, 09:58:48 PM
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Thanks Cambrian, I've found Edward & Margaret Davies in the 1851 Census  and they were at Marl Bach but I can't trace them in the 1841 Census

Hi Hugo,

I have attached copies of the 1841 Census Transcript and the Image of the Census Entry.  I now realise the gravestone you found may not be of my grandfather's grandparents, but it is still an emotional journey for me finding all this information about my father's family history after all these years.

Which brings me to the point that if there is anyone who happens to be reading this thread and thinks they have any relevant information or leads but does not want to post publicly, please, please contact me direct on hugh.daviessolutions@gmail.com

 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2015, 08:49:09 AM
Cambrian,  I've a couple of points to ask you:

You are familiar with the area of Eglwysbach, can you make out the name in the Census report?   It looks like Piccadilly but seems strange for a Welsh area although when I was working I have called on a farm somewhere with that name but can't remember exactly where it was.

In the 1861 Census was Margaret Wynne (nee Davies) aged 23?    The reason I ask is because she would have been born about 1838.
The Margaret Davies from Marl Bach though was born about 1848 and would have been only about 13 in the 1861 Census.
This would mean that your Margaret is not William's Aunt although they could be directly related because of where they were born
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2015, 08:51:32 AM
Hugh, the Census you have found is the correct one for 1841, now we'll have to find the correct name of the farm
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2015, 12:17:56 PM
I've found Hafodty and Fron on the O/S map and they are just south and to the west of the village of Eglwysbach but couldn't see anything  resembling the name of Edwards House.
The Census returns were sometimes done in some type of order so I expect Edward's place to be in between the two properties. I'll ask Tellytubby, my walking friend to have a look on his more detailed map
Title: Re: Davies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 25, 2015, 12:40:11 PM
Hugo

Piccadilly is a bit of puzzle I agree.  There's a pub in Caerwys so named and a wood above Glan Conwy but nowhere I know of in Eglwysbach.

I think Hafodty is on the road up to Llyn Siberi - not been there for some years but I seem to recall it was quite dilapidated.

I'll ponder on Margaret Davies but my notes are not very comprehensive as it was another family I was researching at the time.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2015, 02:22:07 PM
Thanks Cambrian,  I've enjoyed a few pints in the Piccadily in Caerwys in the past. a good place for meals nowadays I've heard.     Z**

Fron and Hafodty on that Census both appear on the ordinary O/S map but the other one is missing.   By the way what do you think the name of Edward Davies' property is?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 25, 2015, 11:42:59 PM
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Hugh, the Census you have found is the correct one for 1841, now we'll have to find the correct name of the farm

I have attached the image of what I am certain is the baptismal record of Jane Davies as listed in the 1841 Census.  It seems to have a location noted which may help.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 26, 2015, 09:44:03 AM
I did some further digging and found a record for the baptism of Edward Davies on 23 Sep 1810 baptised in Eglwys Bach.  True to form, the entry states that he is the "naughty boy son of David Davies and Elinor Hughes". I could not find any subsequent record of a marriage between these two.

What would the likely scenario have been at that stage - ie. would Edward have ultimately lived with his mother of father?

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 26, 2015, 09:49:43 AM
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True to form, the entry states that he is the "naughty boy son of David Davies and Elinor Hughes".

I note the translation into civilized language of my previous message.  Naughty Boy was substituted for B_@_st_@_rd.

Regards
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2015, 10:36:41 AM
You've been busy Hugh and unearthed a skeleton in the cupboard too.      In the Baptism record Edward and Margaret were living in Tyddyn Iolyn which must have been in the township of Cefn Y Coed. 
It's more than likely that Edward lived with his mother but it's not definite as we know from William who lived with his Grandparents
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2015, 06:32:01 PM
I went to the Archives today but didn't find out anything new but I did go into the Census records for 1871 using Margaret Wynne as an example to get me into the system.    Margaret who lived in Sea View Terrace did live in the township of Llan so I navigated my way through every Elizabeth who lived in Llan in the 1871 Census but couldn't find Elizabeth Davies.
I don't know what else we can do as Elizabeth and William are just proving difficult to find in the 1891 Census as I had a go at that too.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 27, 2015, 01:43:33 AM
I have come across another mystery. The 1871 Census shows Edward and Margaret as having a son Edward Davies aged 7 (b1864) which matches the corresponding image - ie not an error in transcription.  However, the 1881 Census shows a Grandson Edward Jones 17 (b.1864), again not an error in transcription. Both Edward records show the same birth town details. Where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him?

Any thoughts on this?  I will dig a little deeper to see if they are one in the same person or two different people.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 27, 2015, 08:01:55 AM
It was quite common in those days for illegitimate children to be brought up as a younger sibling by the grandparents.  Besides for the sake of propriety, it enabled the young mother to eventually marry unencumbered.  I do know of one instance locally where a child is described as the "niece" of the grandparents with whom she is buried. This practice carried on well into the first part of the 20th century.

I wonder if, in this case, Edward junior was illegitimate and by the time he was 17 his actual origin no longer mattered as his mother was by then married hence his description accurately given in 1881.  I may of course be wrong.....!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 27, 2015, 09:07:55 AM
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It was quite common in those days for illegitimate children to be brought up as a younger sibling by the grandparents. 

Thanks Cambrian. You have described how the grandparents may have 'displayed' these children as their own children to the rest of the world, but how would this have been handled in respect of baptisms and registration of births etc. This may assist me in chasing down further information.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 27, 2015, 09:29:05 AM
I have had a Eureka moment (may be an Australian saying), but have found the one piece of the jigsaw that joins the Elizabeth Davies giving birth to the illegitimate William Davies to the Edward and Margaret Davies that had a grandson named William Davies staying with them in 1881.  Previously, it was ASSUMED that these two events were linked.

A search of the birth/baptism records revealed an entry when I used Eglwys Rhos as the location.  It returned a Baptism entry listing a William Davies having a mother 'Elizth'.  Looking at the image of this record reveal that it lists the birth as Illegitimate and most importantly the Abode as "LG Bricks" which would seem to match with 1871 Census address of "Brickfield" for Edward and Margaret Davies.

Thank you, thank you, all for helping me to arrive at this point.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 27, 2015, 09:55:48 AM
Hugo,  You posted a message which said, in part -

"I was at the Conwy Archives today and looked at the Burial Indexes for St Hilary's Church at Llanrhos ( Eglwysrhos)  and also the two Cemeteries in Eglwysbach but I couldn't see any grave for William's Grandparents Edward and Margaret Davies.
While I was looking through the graves in the Llanrhos Burial Index I came across this interesting but sad inscription and thought that I would share it with you.    The inscription was in Welsh and I'll translate it for you:-
In memory of Mary
daughter of Edwart and Marged Davies of Marl Bach
Born 1st January 1853
Died September 20th 1857
The names on the inscription are Welsh but that is how they appeared.


The passing of one so young is extremely sad, but finding that in 1860 Edward and Margaret gave birth to another daughter which they named Mary after their deceased child and then finding that this child also died very young in 1865. I wonder whether there is another gravestone dedicated to the second Mary?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2015, 01:05:08 PM
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I have had a Eureka moment (may be an Australian saying), but have found the one piece of the jigsaw that joins the Elizabeth Davies giving birth to the illegitimate William Davies to the Edward and Margaret Davies that had a grandson named William Davies staying with them in 1881.  Previously, it was ASSUMED that these two events were linked.

A search of the birth/baptism records revealed an entry when I used Eglwys Rhos as the location.  It returned a Baptism entry listing a William Davies having a mother 'Elizth'.  Looking at the image of this record reveal that it lists the birth as Illegitimate and most importantly the Abode as "LG Bricks" which would seem to match with 1871 Census address of "Brickfield" for Edward and Margaret Davies.

Thank you, thank you, all for helping me to arrive at this point.

It looks like you have finally cracked it Hugh and the abode "LG Bricks"   is  "Lower  G  Brickfields"     the home of William's Granddad Edward Davies.        I've forgotten what the G meant but you have the right person and address so well done.       $good$

I'll have another look at the Burial Index for St Hilary's in Llanrhos next time I go to the Archives.       St Hilary's is the parish Church for Eglwysrhos and is only a very short distance from Edward's house at Lower Brickfields.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2015, 02:50:53 PM
While I'm at the Archives looking at the Burial Index,  I'll also have a look at the Baptism Register there and try and find the entry for William.
It should be in the 1875 or 1876 pages but I'll look again.

Now that you've found the Llandudno links the next search will be to find where William went to after he left Alexandra Road.   Did your father ever say where they moved to or what type of quarry he worked in?
If he did in fact move to Penygroes then any info will be stored in the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon but if it was to Betws Y Coed then some of the info will be in our Archives here.
By the way, have you heard from Gwyndaf yet?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 27, 2015, 07:14:20 PM
Hugo - re Piccadilly.  The pub in Caerwys is said to have been built by a chap who had a good bet on a horse of that name running at Holywell racecourse in the early 19th century. Possibly others placed bets with good returns or simply copied the name. The horse was owned by the Earl of Plymouth and named after the London location.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2015, 11:10:36 PM
Thanks Cambrian, that's an interesting bit of info.   I've passed the racecourse on my way to Babell from the A55 and I think the road to Babell runs through what was the old racecourse
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 28, 2015, 05:57:38 AM
I have managed to track down a number of Baptism records (transcript and original image) of some of the children of Edward and Margaret.  The 'Abode' details in these records are:

 1840 Tyddyn Iolyn
 1842 to 1845 Glan y borth
 1848 Llwyn Onn (See Attachment)

Is anything known about any of these places?

I am particularly interested in Tyddyn Iolyn as I have uncovered another treasure. It is the Baptism record for Margaret Davies b 1816. It shows her parents are Hugh Davies and Dorothy Jones living at Tyddyn Iolyn.  So, it would seem that for a short period of time after their marriage, they were living with Margaret's parents.
 
Back to the digging
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on February 28, 2015, 08:54:57 AM
Hugh

Interesting stuff.  I am a bit puzzled as the younger Margaret Davies (who married David Wynne) I have as having been born on 7.12.1847 at Hendafarn, Llandudno.  As the year and the location are different, I wonder if they are the same.  By another odd coincidence, there is a Llwyn Onn in Llandudno very close to Hendafarn.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 28, 2015, 04:16:53 PM
According to Google,  Llwyn Onn, is in Ffordd Gyffylog, Eglwysbach but whether it is the same property I'm not sure.  Also Tyddyn Iolyn is in Ffordd Maenan at post code LL28 5UG  but I've no idea about Glan y borth.   
Glan y borth in English means Bank of the ferry/ port so I would expect it to be somewhere near the Tal Y Cafn bridge but again I've not seen  or heard of it, but will try and find out.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 01, 2015, 08:54:43 AM
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Hugh

Interesting stuff.  I am a bit puzzled as the younger Margaret Davies (who married David Wynne) I have as having been born on 7.12.1847 at Hendafarn, Llandudno.  As the year and the location are different, I wonder if they are the same.  By another odd coincidence, there is a Llwyn Onn in Llandudno very close to Hendafarn.



Hi Cambrian,

The baptismal record I found for Margaret is the only one matching the details known to me, particularly the father and mother names (Edward and Margaret).  I have tried to find a baptismal record for the Margaret b. 7/12/1847 without success. Having said that, the Baptismal record will always lag the birth date. In the case of 'my' Margaret, the baptismal record is dated 9 January 1948, so could well be 'your' Margaret as well.  I am not sure what records you hold in relation to 'your' Margaret, but my only record for 'my' Margaret is the Baptismal record naming her parents and a birth date consistent with other records I have, and of course a corresponding area consistent with other family records.

I have unsuccessfully searched for a marriage to 'my' Margaret so would hope there is sufficient evidence to match both our Margarets. 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 01, 2015, 02:43:57 PM
Hugh

I have seen marriage details for Margaret.

She married David Wynne, aged 23, a farm labourer of Llansantffraid Glan Conway, on 28th March 1869.  He was a farm labourer.

She was aged 21 and a domestic servant whose residence was "Brickworks, Llandudno".  Her father was Edward Davies, a labourer.

The marriage was at Carmel Calvinistic Chapel, Conwy. The Chapel is still there in Chapel Street.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 01, 2015, 03:01:42 PM
This is the Chapel you are talking about Cambrian.    I took the photos when I was helping out with the research for Pensarn Farm and she was looking for her relatives etc.    From memory one of her relations worked and lived in the Chapel House and she must be related directly or indirectly to Hugh.

The posting by Anneelaine under the topic Pensarn Farm pg  8 & 10  shows that her relative Jane Ann Rogerson  (Nee Davies) in her burial notice lived at Bronallt Chapel Street Conwy.    Bronallt is the house on the left in the first photo 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2015, 12:22:30 PM
I've just gone into the web site  British History Online and as a result I have found Glan Y Borth.   It was exactly where I thought it was and as you go from the Tal Y Cafn Hotel cross the railway line and it was on the left before the bridge.
The  BHO site is very good and is easy and handy to use. The map was an O/S map of 1888- 1895 and seems to predate the bridge at Tal Y Cafn
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 02, 2015, 10:15:59 PM
I've had a look at British History Online and put in Llanrhos for the map search and can see where the Brickfield Cottages where.    They were roughly  on the corner of where Conwy Road meets Maenan Road nowadays and opposite that pubic footpath that goes to Queens Road.
It's a good site to see where older properties once where.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 03, 2015, 12:20:48 AM
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Hugh

I have seen marriage details for Margaret.

She married David Wynne, aged 23, a farm labourer of Llansantffraid Glan Conway, on 28th March 1869.  He was a farm labourer.

She was aged 21 and a domestic servant whose residence was "Brickworks, Llandudno".  Her father was Edward Davies, a labourer.


That's good enough for me!!  Another link to add to the tree.  Are you able to send me a transcript or copy of the document you are citing from? Again, my email address is hugh.daviessolutions@gmail.com if you wish to do so off line.  I have attached a copy of Margaret's Baptism for your records.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 03, 2015, 03:00:52 PM
Hugh - The detail I have is from a note I made when I was looking at another family some years ago. It could have been from a certificate someone had.  If you look at a site called North Wales BMD you can input the couple's details for 1869 and that will bring up the partial record.  The reference is CNWY/02/23. 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 04, 2015, 10:12:53 PM
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Hugh - The detail I have is from a note I made when I was looking at another family some years ago. It could have been from a certificate someone had.  If you look at a site called North Wales BMD you can input the couple's details for 1869 and that will bring up the partial record.  The reference is CNWY/02/23. 

Thanks Cambrian. I will use the Northern Wales BMD reference in my records.  Out of curiosity, was the person you were doing the research for looking at the Wynne side (as I suspect), or the Davies side?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 06, 2015, 08:02:55 PM
No, just the Wynnes as an off-shoot.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2015, 10:24:23 PM
Just a few photos of Eglwysbach as it is now.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 07, 2015, 08:26:58 AM
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I've had a look at British History Online and put in Llanrhos for the map search and can see where the Brickfield Cottages where.    They were roughly  on the corner of where Conwy Road meets Maenan Road nowadays and opposite that pubic footpath that goes to Queens Road.
It's a good site to see where older properties once where.
Hugo, what map did you look at to find this? Any chance of a snapshot of the piece of the map showing the Brickfield Cottages that I can use to find them myself.

Similarly, are you able to post a snapshot of the piece of map showing Glan y Borth.

I know you talked about tracing the route to Penygroes from Llandudno, but at the moment, I am still trying to record all the data that has been found predominantly as a result of your efforts. There has not been a reply from the Gwyndaf I wrote to prior to Christmas which I take to mean that he is not a relative or does not wish to pursue communications.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2015, 10:12:40 AM
Hugh if you put British History Online into Google and then go into the home page.  In the top box on the left put Llanrhos in the box and two maps will appear.
Go to the O/S map   005/NW and then click.   Then go to see the whole screen and keep enlarging.   Tou are looking towards the top left hand side of the map.      By the Church in Llanrhos there is a main road follow that North or upwards and then the road forks.  Take the left hand fork and you will see Brickworks Cottages.   That is where it was but they are no longer there.
What is good about the map is no matter how much you enlarge it the image quality stays the same.

Now I have a question for you Hugh.  On your posting on the 28th February you enclosed a copy of a document for Llwyn Onn, was this document from Eglwysbach or Llandudno?

The reason I am asking is because I did see something in Google saying that there was a Llwynn Onn in Ffordd Gyffylog Eglwysbach.   (  Ffordd is Welsh for Street so in English it would be Gyffylog Street)       Anyway I was in Eglwysbach yesterday and I asked a postwoman delivering mail where it was and she had not heard of Llwyn Onn.    That doesn't mean that there isn't one just that she didn't know one.

Tyddyn Iolyn is still there and is up a steep hill but is not visible from the main road.

Glan Y Borth is a bit of a mystery as I thought that I had seen the property on the o/s map.   Using BHO put in Tal Y Cafn and go to the map 009/SW and you will see where it should be in the top left hand side of the map.     The property I thought it was is called Ty'n Y Borth ( roughly translated Farmstead of the Ferry)     That is where Glan Y Borth should be according to the translation of its Welsh name and it could be that Ty'n Y Borth and Glan Y Borth are the same place.
Here is a photo that I took of the property called Ty'n Y Borth yesterday

I think that you are wise to concentrate on this area as there is still a lot more to find out and the area and Archive are both close at hand
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2015, 12:40:09 PM
Hugh, I have found the attached info on line so I know that it was in Eglwysbach. and a property search on rightmove showed these details:-

Llwynonn, Ffordd Gyffylog, Eglwysbach, Colwyn Bay, Conwy LL28 5TU
£180,000   Detached, Freehold   25 Apr 2007

It's a long single track lane but I couldn't see where exactly Llwyn Onn is.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 07, 2015, 02:09:23 PM
Hugo

The cottage was on a plot directly opposite the public footpath between Queen's Road and Conway Road (the path has the figure "31" on the map). There is a property up a lane off Maenan Road, called Maenan Close, which may be the site of the cottage(s). From memory it looks like a small quarry rather than a clay pit.

What puzzles me a little is that on the map the reference is to "Brickyard Cottage" which conveys a slightly different meaning to brickworks. I wonder if it was an area for storage of bricks produced at the brickworks down on what is Maesdu Road (now roughly where Arch Motors is situated).
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2015, 05:38:00 PM
Cambrian,  that footpath was the old cinder track that ran alongside the GPO Engineering place and may still be there but I'm not familiar with Maenan Lodge.   By the way, where is Maenan Lodge, what street is it in?
After you mentioned the connection with the Wynne's living there I looked at Census records and there were two properties at Brickfields and the Census records usually come in some type of order and after Brickfields on the Census records came Gasworks Cottage which was opposite the big Gas Tank that stood there for years.
The Brickworks were just past there adjoining Billy Simpson's old place now Arch Motors, so I'm assuming that the Davies family lived in the address by Maenan Road but I'm not completely positive.  I can't see any cottages on the Brickworks site on that map of BHO but I'll look on the Street index for 1911 and see if anything is there
I was having a chat with someone who has been reading this thread and he mentioned the brickworks and the chimney by Arch Motors and also the brick works by Marian Place.   That area was contaminated and a lot of soil had to removed from Marian Place because of health reasons.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 07, 2015, 06:54:09 PM
Hugo,

The property is called Maenan Close.  It is down a private track (or drive) off Maenan Road, running parallel to Conway Road and Elwy Gardens, heading back towards Llanrhos and ending at what is (or was) a bungalow. It can't be seen from Maenan Road.

The footpath alongside the old GPO depot is still there but no cinders now!

From what I understand, the Wynnes definitely lived there and not the Maesdu Road brickworks so the same will be true for the Davies family. You are right about the other brickworks at Marian Road/Place.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2015, 10:16:06 PM
Cambrian,   I know where you mean now about Maenan Close after looking it up on Street view.     It was a parcel of land behind all the other houses and had that narrow drive leading to it.
In actual fact it was owned by my uncle and aunt and they had the bungalow built on the land.   It had a rather steep back garden if I remember  correctly.
It's a shame that we don't have photos of the Brickfields properties so that Hugh can build up a bigger picture of where his ancestors lived.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 08, 2015, 05:12:12 AM
Hugo and Cambrian.  I found the Brickyard Cottages on the map, and compared this area to the image of the 1871 census. The entries were as follows:

No of Schedule      Residence           Family Name
   1                         Brynia                     Hughes
   2                         Brickfield No 1         Davies
   3                         Brickfield No 2         Roberts
   4                         Gas Works               Roberts
   5                         Cwn Howard            Parry

The above is very consistent with the information on the map.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 08, 2015, 07:23:07 AM
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Now I have a question for you Hugh.  On your posting on the 28th February you enclosed a copy of a document for Llwyn Onn, was this document from Eglwysbach or Llandudno?

Hugo, the image shows "Baptisms solemnized in the Parish of Eglwysfach in the County of Denbigh".  Unfortunately, the records I have are in between Census years so I can't make out any other data that would narrow down its location.  I will keep digging

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2015, 07:31:37 AM
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Hugo and Cambrian.  I found the Brickyard Cottages on the map, and compared this area to the image of the 1871 census. The entries were as follows:

No of Schedule      Residence           Family Name
   1                         Brynia                     Hughes
   2                         Brickfield No 1         Davies
   3                         Brickfield No 2         Roberts
   4                         Gas Works               Roberts
   5                         Cwn Howard            Parry

Thanks Hugh, it follows the pattern I was thinking of,   Bryniau is a farm just past Llanrhos Church, then you had the two Brickfield properties followed by the stone cottage at the Gasworks and then Cwm Howard Farm.
The land near the Brickfields may have been farmed by Cwm Howard or more likely by Jackson's Farm which was further down and across the road.
I'm old enough to remember both Cwm Howard and Jackson's Farm as working farms but nowadays the land has been used for housing and I used to live near them.

The above is very consistent with the information on the map.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 08, 2015, 07:48:51 AM
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Now I have a question for you Hugh.  On your posting on the 28th February you enclosed a copy of a document for Llwyn Onn, was this document from Eglwysbach or Llandudno?

Hugo, the image shows "Baptisms solemnized in the Parish of Eglwysfach in the County of Denbigh".  Unfortunately, the records I have are in between Census years so I can't make out any other data that would narrow down its location.  I will keep digging

Thanks Hugh, I realised that they were in Eglwysbach when I found a reference to Llwyn Onn in Eglwysbach.     That property was sold in 2007 so the chances of it keeping the same name are good.     I did drive up the lane but couldn't see the house and apart from the postwoman there wasn't a local in sight.    Don't worry though because it will turn up again.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2015, 08:22:09 PM
Hugh,  I was in the Llandudno Archives today but didn't find anything new there.    Just so you know they have the Eglwysbach Parish records for Baptisms. burials and marriages going back to 1601 so there is a lot of info out there.
I don't know if you know where and when Edward and Margaret died as I can't find them in the 1891 Census and I did look in the Llandudno Register of Burials up to 1891 but they were not there either.
According to the 1911 Street Index Brickfield Cottages were no longer there so Edward and Margaret may have moved address in the meantime.
Just to give you an idea of the problem with locating things that are in different Parishes I've posted a photo again.     Marl Bach where Edward & Margaret lived was in the trees on the left of the photo and was in Eglwysrhos,   The house on the right is Maes Glas where another member of the Davies family lived and that I believe was in the Parish of Llangystennin
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 09, 2015, 09:32:40 PM
Just a couple of things.  Yes, Hugo, Marl Bach was in Llangwstennin/Llancystennin.
Robert Wynne and Margaret had a daughter, Catherine, who was known locally as "Caddie Bricks", so the name stuck for decades afterwards.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 09, 2015, 09:52:34 PM
Cambrian, wasn't Marl Bach in Eglwysrhos and Maes Glas the building in the picture in Llangystennin?

I've heard that name in the distant past somewhere but names did stick.   We had Billy Bricks in Cwm Place and what a nice guy he was.
Years ago my G Grandfather had the Temperance Hotel in Llandudno  (half the Castle Hotel) and for years our family were known as the Hughes Temperance but that changed over the generations especially when Norman 08 and myself came along.      Z**    Z**
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 10, 2015, 08:27:28 AM
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I don't know if you know where and when Edward and Margaret died as I can't find them in the 1891 Census and I did look in the Llandudno Register of Burials up to 1891 but they were not there either.
According to the 1911 Street Index Brickfield Cottages were no longer there so Edward and Margaret may have moved address in the meantime.
Hugo. For some obscure reason, I had not previously searched for the burial/death details for Edward or Margaret until your request. I have now found both as follows:

 - Image of "Burials in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos" shows and entry on p70 entry no 554 for Edward Davies, Brick-Field Cottage Eglwys Rhos buried on 5 Jan 1887.

 - Image of "Burials in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos" shows and entry on p97 entry no 772 for Margaret Davies, Conway Union late Ty-Brick buried on June 15 1891. There is an entry on the 1991 Census for a Margaret Davies, living at Cottage, Village, Llansaintffraid Glan Conway as a widowed lodger living on her own means.

I am not sure if the two records, the burial record and the 1991Census, agree completely, but my guess is that they do.

If this leads to the discovery of their graves then I will be immensely grateful. If not it fills in some important data.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2015, 08:54:16 AM
Thanks Hugh, that all fits in,   Edward died before the 1891 Census and was living in Eglwysrhos.     Margaret had moved to Glan Conwy by the time of the 1891 Census  (probably held in April )   
The entry for Margaret Davies at the Conway Union fits in too date wise but I'm not sure if the Conway Union was a hospital or a workhouse and I'm sure that Cambrian will know the answer to that one.
As to the graves then they could be in a number of places but I haven't searched for Conwy graves yet.   When I next go to the Archives I'll have a look again now that I've got the extra info from you.
Margaret's address in Glan Conway sounds like the place we have been calling Llan and would have been near St Brigit's Church in the centre of the village
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 10, 2015, 09:32:13 AM
Interesting stuff.

"Conway Union" sounds like a reference to the Conway Union Workhouse on Bangor Road, Conwy.  This later became Conwy Hospital and has now been demolished.

It's a pity the Glan Conwy address is so vague - though, as Hugo surmises, it will be the area round the Church.

I'll check on Maes Glas/Marl Bach.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 10, 2015, 08:44:12 PM
I've nothing to add to that, but just to clarify Ty Bricks in case you are wondering about the various names.   Ty means house in English so it's the same place where they lived in Eglwysrhos.
Quite often you'll come across names that are spelt differently and there are a variety of reasons for it, but you have definitely got the right people.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: mull on March 10, 2015, 09:30:19 PM
When I have time, will have to dig out my family papers.
My family name is Davies and  remember in the 1970/80s walking along Conway Road with my father towards Llanrhos, were many of the family are buried. I can recall during the walk he mentioned his Granfather having an allotment off Conway Road.
I wonder if our families are connected in some way.
My grandmother on my fathers side lived in Conway before she married and the family had connections with the Rowen area.
My father had a cousin named Wynne, by marriage, living in Brynau Road, West Shore in the 1970/90s.
Might be some mileage in this,just wish I had time to investigate more and keep up with it.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 10, 2015, 09:48:40 PM
Maes Glas was in Llangwstennin and Marl Bach in Eglwys Rhos.  The parish boundary probably went alongside the western boundary of Maes Glas.

I apologise for any confusion over an earlier post (0932 on 09/03/15) in which I referred to "Robert Wynne", it should, of course, have read "David Wynne". A senior moment!

Hugh - regarding the 1891 Cenus where Margaret is shown as living at "Cottage, Llan", is there any indication of any other people at the dwelling ?  It seems unusual that in her widowhood she would go to Glan Conwy unless to live with relatives. 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 11, 2015, 09:14:33 AM
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When I have time, will have to dig out my family papers.
My family name is Davies and  remember in the 1970/80s walking along Conway Road with my father towards Llanrhos, were many of the family are buried. I can recall during the walk he mentioned his Granfather having an allotment off Conway Road.
I wonder if our families are connected in some way.
My grandmother on my fathers side lived in Conway before she married and the family had connections with the Rowen area.
My father had a cousin named Wynne, by marriage, living in Brynau Road, West Shore in the 1970/90s.
Might be some mileage in this,just wish I had time to investigate more and keep up with it.
Hi Mull.  If I can help doing some research, just give me some names/dates/locations and I will see if there is any connection between our families.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 11, 2015, 09:29:45 AM
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Maes Glas was in Llangwstennin and Marl Bach in Eglwys Rhos.  The parish boundary probably went alongside the western boundary of Maes Glas.

I apologise for any confusion over an earlier post (0932 on 09/03/15) in which I referred to "Robert Wynne", it should, of course, have read "David Wynne". A senior moment!

Hugh - regarding the 1891 Cenus where Margaret is shown as living at "Cottage, Llan", is there any indication of any other people at the dwelling ?  It seems unusual that in her widowhood she would go to Glan Conwy unless to live with relatives. 

Hi Cambrian. I have attached part A of the images before and after Margaret's 1891 Census Image. Because of the file size restriction, I will send Part B in a separate post.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 11, 2015, 09:32:00 AM
Here is Part B. I hope the trail of the five pages helps in positively identifying Margaret's location.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 11, 2015, 04:04:20 PM
I went back to the Archives to have a look at the Burial Indexes following your posting giving the dates of death of Edward and Margaret.
The Burial Indexes though only list graves where there is a headstone and they have copied the inscription from the headstone.  They are easy to locate because the name of the deceased is listed alphabetically as is the address they lived at.
For both Edward and Margaret I have drawn a complete blank as there is no trace in all the records I looked at, and I've looked at all the likely possibilities.     In addition I asked the Archivist to check through their computer records but again it was to no avail.
Finally I checked the Llandudno Advertiser for 1887 and there were no obituary notices in those papers.
Obviously the pair have been buried somewhere and only the Church records of the burial plots will be able to confirm the location.    Edward died first and lived very close to St Hilary's Church Llanrhos (Eglwysrhos) so one would expect him to be buried there and it is hoped that Margaret would have been buried in the same grave later, but where is it?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 11, 2015, 04:19:45 PM
Thanks for posting those attachments Hugh, the names on some of the properties will help to identify where Margaret lived but I'm having trouble reading some of the addresses.   I can read some parts of them but not all but one address looks like "Bee"   now by coincidence Eglwysbach had and still has a pub called the Bee  but I'm not sure if Glan Conwy had a pub called the Bee.
From the info on the Census records the area seems to be in the centre of the village ( the area called Llan)  and I'm wondering if the Bee was  near where Margaret Davies lived in Seaview Terrace.

Cambrian, have you had any better luck looking at the names on the Census?     One of the names looks like Ty Meddiant but the only  Meddiant I can remember is the one off Top Llan Road nearer Fforddlas.   Another looks like Pen Y Foel shop, while another looks like "Iron Duke Public House"        I must remember to make that visit to Specsavers soon!
By the way what did you make the name in Eglwysbach to be  that I thought could be Piccadily?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 11, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
I've got it now,  Victoria House is in Church Street Glan Conwy and that should help to pinpoint the cottage.    Hugh, it is right in the centre of the village where we first thought.
The photos are of St Bridget's Church and Church Street as you approach it from the main road.  The Church is on the left after this short street.
By the way I took this photo of Church Street when I was helping someone on here looking for Davies Family Conwy/ Gyffin and John Davies and his wife Selina lived in the cottage called Isallt which is the cream coloured one on the left of the photo.
Another member of the Davies family, I wonder?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 11, 2015, 08:31:21 PM
The "Bee" and the "Iron Duke" were both pubs or inns in Glan Conwy.  There is evidence of there having been nearly 20 of these in and around the village, however, most were simply drinking parlours in a room in someone's house rather than pubs as we know them.  They were most numerous when Glan Conwy enjoyed a thriving coastal and river shipping trade which gradually tailed off in the late 19th century. I am unsure of the precise location of the two pubs referred to in the Census.



The use of "Victoria" was quite common - the current village shop in Church Street was originally "Victoria Shop"; next to it are two cottages dating from the early 18thC and are called Victoria Cottages; another shop (now a house) situated next to the cottages, was called "Victoria Stores". There was also a Victoria House which may have been the living accommodation above Victoria Shop.

Now I think I may have cracked the location. If we assume the enumerator has worked in a "walking order" he has started at Pendraw Llan with the Iron Duke (27).  Number 31 is The "Prince of Wales" which is not named but was a pub at one time.  I know this as I recognise the names of the family listed. This property is now called "Benarth" and is a few doors north of the Post Office. After a few more properties in Llanrwst Road we reach the "Cross Keys" (now the only pub!) at number 40.  41 to 48 will be from the Memorial Hall round the Ffraid Villa which is the first house on the left as you enter Church Street.  This is where it gets a bit tricky.  I think he has branched left and gone up "Pen Tai" rather than straight along Church Street.  At the end of "Pen Tai" there is a terrace of 4 houses called Bryn Eglwys.  I know from other research that the Hughes family at Number 53 were living at 1 Bryn Eglwys in 1890/2. Margaret Davies is listed at 54 so if we follow the logic that should be 2 Bryn Eglwys.  The enumerator then follows the road round skirting the church wall to reach Ty Mawr (still there by the cemetery) (63).  Incidentally the properties 57 -62 seem to be the Terrace called Pen Tai as Robert and Mary Hughes (57) are listed as being of Pentai on an 1891 inscription on a headstone in the churchyard. After Ty Mawr we get to Tan y Fynwent (64) which used to be the Church Institute and is now a house which has reverted to its original name.  Victoria House is next at 65 but by my reckoning this should be Victoria Stores unless the names were exchanged at a later date.
The terrace (66 to 69) seems to be what is now Victoria Cottages.

I hope this perambulation is of help, but no joy with "Piccadilly".

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 11, 2015, 10:35:53 PM
Cambrian,  I think you have cracked it and FFraid Villa was No 48 on the Census form and Margaret lived 5 doors away ay No 54.      Tyn Y Fynwent was No 64 and was 10 doors away past Margaret's address.
So on that basis we can pinpoint exactly where Margaret lived at the time of the Census.
Hugh, if the cottage was in the street called Pen Tai, then that street is at the top of the street going uphill in my previous photo.    The first  photo is of Pen Tai    ( In English in means Houses at the top)  and the second is of the Chapel at the end of that terrace.

Incidently Hugh, the other Davies Family from Glan Conwy/ Gyffin had ancestors that once lived in Pen Tai.

Another person was on this research  topic under "Mary Jane Davies"  pg3 was looking for their Grandparents Mary Jane Davies and Hugh Davies.
I'm not suggesting that they are also related to you but there seems to be a lot of Davies' in the area.

Cambrian, what I meant to ask was does the name look like Piccadily to you, even if we don't know where it is at the moment it's nice to put a name to the property
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
Hugh,  I'm not sure if it'll be as easy as I thought to find the address of Margaret as I had a look on Google street view and there have been some alterations to the property.  I will have a walk around the street  asap and see if I can work it out.
I would appreciate it though if you could publish on here the part of the Census that includes Margaret  (No 54 to 62) but please include all the details from that particular Census form ages etc.
There is something I want to see on that page but I can't get to the library to see it.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2015, 10:06:06 PM
Hugh,  you might find this link helpful in your research.   Have a look through it and it seems that the Eglwysrhos Church records have been transferred to the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon and from what I've read the info is available on line with the permission of the Archivist.
Just a point if and when you come to look for something in Penygroes, you need to refer to Llanllyfni to trace those records



http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genuki.org.uk%2Fbig%2Fwal%2FCAE%2FEglwysRhos%2F&ei=iAsCVf2CLI3fPaawgeAF&usg=AFQjCNFBIxxNsvxqg-2gwooe_KHmMZvh2w (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genuki.org.uk%2Fbig%2Fwal%2FCAE%2FEglwysRhos%2F&ei=iAsCVf2CLI3fPaawgeAF&usg=AFQjCNFBIxxNsvxqg-2gwooe_KHmMZvh2w)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 13, 2015, 02:16:52 AM
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Hugh,  I'm not sure if it'll be as easy as I thought to find the address of Margaret as I had a look on Google street view and there have been some alterations to the property.  I will have a walk around the street  asap and see if I can work it out.
I would appreciate it though if you could publish on here the part of the Census that includes Margaret  (No 54 to 62) but please include all the details from that particular Census form ages etc.
There is something I want to see on that page but I can't get to the library to see it.

Have had to break up image into two parts due to the file restrictions. This is Part 1 54 to 58.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 13, 2015, 02:19:33 AM
Here is Part B
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2015, 08:25:47 AM
Thanks Hugh, it was No 59 that I was interested in only because I could see Elizabeth Jones with two children Margaret and Edward but I can see now that the Elizabeth is not William's mother.  At least I've ruled that out.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 13, 2015, 09:35:46 AM
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Hugh,  I'm not sure if it'll be as easy as I thought to find the address of Margaret as I had a look on Google street view and there have been some alterations to the property.  I will have a walk around the street  asap and see if I can work it out.

Hugo. I have also been looking on Google Maps. The first attempt followed the route that Cambrian described and at the end of Bryn Eglwys, just before the lane that skirts the church cemetery on the right, the last house displayed a house plate "1 Bryn Eglwys". Moving back down the street did not show any further useful house plates.  However, when I keyed in an address of 2 Bryn Eglwys, I got a 2011 image showing a woman walking into the door of the house next to 1 Bryn Eglwys. To the right of the door used by the woman is a house plate displaying "2 Bryn Eglwys".

I have attached the image for your perusal.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2015, 02:33:07 PM
Thanks for posting the photo Hugh, but I'm not entirely convinced that, that is where Margaret lived.    The Census forms were done in some type of order even if it is not always obvious to follow.    This morning I had a walk along Pen Tai and saw all the properties in the street.
Ffraid Villa is now one property ( prev No 49 &50) and Bryn Eglwys Terrace of houses starts nine doors away.  It doesn't seem logical that the Census enumerator would then go back to No 1 Pen Tai and then go past Bryn Eglwys to pick up the next one Ty Mawr at No 63.
I might be completely wrong in this and I can't identify where she lived for certain.
While I was looking around I met an old work colleague of mine who has lived in Pen Tai for the last 30 years and he invited me in to his house and showed me the old parts and the new conversions and it's a really lovely property.
He told me that No 1 Pen Tai was not a cottage but an old warehouse that stored tobacco and other things and belonged to Ffraid Villa. On that basis I think that the cottage Margaret lived in was was the fourth inhabited property in the street from Ffraid Villa No 50 and that would make it No 5 Pen Tai
I've enclosed a photo I took of some of the houses in Pen Tai.   Ffraid Villa is on the extreme left behind the large block of flats.    Bryn Eglwys is out of sight and four cottages away to the right.  No 5 Pen Tai is the first of the half stone half timber buildings on the left with the chairs outside.

After going there I carried on to Eglwysbach and spoke to a young farmer and found that Tyddyn Iolyn is now a ruin and there is no access to it from the road only through private farm land and as it was muddy I decided to give it a miss.   Llwyn Onn I couldn't find and the farmer didn't know where it was either.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2015, 11:10:56 PM
After checking my notes again I've come across something that is puzzling me and that is that there are only 10 cottages between Ffraid Villa  (No50)  and the next named property Ty Mawr. (No63)
Yet on the 1891 Census there are 12 properties between the two named houses.   I know that there have been alterations to the cottages over the years but I've tried to take that into account.
The 10 properties there are No's 2,3 & 4 Pen Tai,  No's 5, 6 & 7 Pen Tai  ( half stone,half timber ) and 4 in the Bryn Eglwys Terrace.    There were 3 families living there called Hughes.   J Hughes (No 53)  R Hughes ( No 57) &  Wm Hughes  (No 60)

I don't know the area well enough to explain what has happened to the missing two properties but am guessing that they may have been demolished when the new cemetery was built but also the gable end of No 2 Pen Tai does seem odd for an end of terrace property.
I still think that Margaret's home was one of those in the last photo I posted but which one?
Perhaps Cambrian may be able to help with the missing two properties.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 14, 2015, 09:35:02 AM
Hugo,

I think the first two cottages of Pen Tai were demolished to allow the building of a warehouse, known locally as "The Factory".  This was the base of Robert Williams Tobacco Factor.  He lived in the larger house next to it - in the direction of the chapel.  The "Factory" itself was demolished a few years ago and some new housing built on the site.  The occupants of 53 are John Hughes and family. He owned Victoria Shop. I have managed to identify No 36 - not directly relevant to the Davies family - it was the Ship Inn and is still called "The Ship" although now a private house next to the Post Office. No 31 was also a pub at one time, "The Prince of Wales", now called "Benarth" and also a private house.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 14, 2015, 12:37:00 PM
Thanks for all that info Cambrian and that would explain the discrepancy between the number of cottages now and the number of occupiers in 1891.    I still think that the Census would have continued with the same pattern as it had done from Llanrwst Road A470 and up and along Pen Tai.    At some stage there must have been a renumbering of the houses at Pen Tai, as the present No 1 Ty Newydd  Flats occupies the land where the original two cottages where.
With your latest info   J Hughes would have lived at the present No 2 cottage and Margaret Davies would have lived next door at the present day No 3.
Hugh,  No 3 is the house on the left of the cream coloured cottage in my last photo.     Pen Tai is an elevated street that has views to the mountains from the front doors and the traffic is quiet there unlike the busier Church Street below.
I've a feeling that there are more secrets to unravel in William's past and they may lie in Glan Conwy, but finding them is the problem.  We have mentioned Llan on here before and in the past it was a small concentrated area around the Church comprising mainly Church Street, Pen Tai and Bryn Eglwys,  Top Llan Road and Llanrwst Road.    Elizabeth was in this area when she had William and was a domestic servant.   It could even mean that she was a housekeeper for someone such as the William the widower that you came across in your searches.
 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 14, 2015, 02:01:05 PM
I understand the logic Hugo, but I can say quite definitely that John and Lucy Hughes & family lived at the address 1 Bryn Eglwys.  I know descendants of theirs and most of their children were born at that address. John Hughes himself lived to the ripe old age of 93. By a strange coincidence, one of John Hughes' descendants is currently married to one of David & Margaret Wynne's!

Back to the Census: I wonder if the explanation is that, for whatever reason, the enumerator has begun at the Bryn Eglwys end of the street and worked back to join those he had already done. The forms we are seeing are, of course, not a register he would carry around "door to door" but result of forms he will have collected or filled in for households then copied out into the return. This would explain some of the variations.  If he filled in the return starting at Bryn Eglwys end and worked back, that would give 50/51/52/53 as the Bryn Eglwys houses and the remainder as Pentai.  This would mean that Margaret was living at either the first or the last house of Pentai. I hope this makes some sense.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 14, 2015, 04:18:56 PM
I can understand what you are saying Cambrian and that is a definite possibility.  Every Census is different and it's quite likely that the 1881 Census and 1901 Census could follow a different direction.
Hugh though needs conclusive proof before he can say for certain which cottage Margaret actually lived in.    A comparison of the street in the 1881 Census and 1901 Census may get the answer.  If only they had the numbers and street names on them,
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 14, 2015, 07:12:43 PM
I have had a quick look at the 1871 census which follows a different route as you suspected, Hugo.  After Ty Mawr, the route goes up Top Llan Road rather than down Church Street. The 10 houses in Pentai are listed. There are 13 houses between a house where a Methodist Minister was staying (Ty Capel Ebenezer ??) and Ty Mawr but no mention of Bryn Eglwys or Ffraid Villa.  I wonder if there were a couple of very old cottages on the site of Bryn Eglwys and later they were demolished to make way for the terrace of 4.

Jane Evans is in the fourth house listed in Pentai.  Her husband was called John and he was born in Llanrhos.  That I suspect may be the connection, could he have been related to the Davies family ? As to the location of the house, I wonder if the simple explanation is that they just moved along. 

I have no access to the 1881 so perhaps Hugh can check.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 14, 2015, 10:38:18 PM
Thanks for going to all that trouble Cambrian, it's still a mystery but if Hugh can check the 1881 Census for the Pentai area we might have more idea of which house Margaret actually lived in.
Most of the property may have been rented and as you say the people moved from one place to another, the fact that you identified the street means that we know that she either lived in Pen Tai or Bryn Eglwys in 1991.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 16, 2015, 04:55:05 AM
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Thanks for going to all that trouble Cambrian, it's still a mystery but if Hugh can check the 1881 Census for the Pentai area we might have more idea of which house Margaret actually lived in.
Most of the property may have been rented and as you say the people moved from one place to another, the fact that you identified the street means that we know that she either lived in Pen Tai or Bryn Eglwys in 1991.

Hugo. Here are the images for the 1881 Census - will need to sent over a number of posts.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 16, 2015, 04:57:04 AM
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Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 16, 2015, 04:59:41 AM
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Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 16, 2015, 05:03:50 AM
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Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 16, 2015, 05:07:31 AM
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Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2015, 09:10:38 AM
Thanks Hugh, I've printed them off but will need some time to look at them so they make sense.   First impression is that the Census has been done in a different order again but will study them in more detail asap.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 16, 2015, 12:49:24 PM
Yes, the 1881 enumerator has a different walking order.  If you follow the round the back of the Church from Ty Mawr, the first 4 houses are 1-4 Bryn Eglwys (87, 88, 89 and an unoccupied one which would be 90)  John and Jane Evans are at 91 so that will be the last cottage before Bryn Eglwys.  This seems to fit with other info except in this one John's parish of birth is given as Llangwstenin rather than Llanrhos.  (The boundaries must have been confusing even then!)

Of interest also is 102 which is the home of David and Catherine Wynne.  These are the parents of David Wynne who married Margaret, sister of Elizabeth Davies.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 16, 2015, 04:21:52 PM
Thanks for sorting that out Cambrian, it's saved me taking some paracetamol and a stiff drink   Z**

Just to clarify what you've said, do you think now that Margaret lived at No 7 Pentai which is the last of the stone and timber cottages before Bryn Eglwys?

I've just come back from the Archives and had a look at the original Baptism record for William.   Hugh has already seen the details but I'll post what I saw.
Baptism Record for Llanrhos     Page 38  No 303
1st December 1875    William      Illigitimate son of Elizabeth Davies   Ty Bricks Eglwysrhos       Baptised by John Davies vicar

I had a look at the marriage register but could find nothing for Elizabeth Davies but suspect that in those times as she already had a child if she got married it would have been in a Registry Office, probably that one in Conwy.

I double checked the burial indexes but couldn't see anything for Edward and Margaret Davies.   I did notice a lot of Wynne's buried in Eglwysbach though.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 17, 2015, 01:05:16 PM
Yes, Hugo, No 7 I think it will be if that is number of the next one to Bryn Eglwys. I also think we have three options for Edward and Margaret resting place.  St Hilary's (Llanrhos), Glan Conway, or Eglwysbach.  As William (Jr) was baptised by the vicar, I think it safe to assume the family were Anglicans.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2015, 04:44:15 PM
Thanks Cambrian, so No 7 Pen Tai is where Margaret Lived in 1891.  No 7 isn't shown in the photo I took so when I'm next there I'll pop around and take a photo for Hugh to see.
By coincidence No 7 was the house I went into on my visit there recently.   No 6 and No 7 have been converted into one property and I was shown around both cottages and the old and new parts were pointed out to me.  It really was a lovely conversion.

I have looked at the burial indexes for St Hilary's, St Tudno's,  Glan Conwy and Eglysbach as well as a few others but found nothing apart from the grave for young Mary Davies in St Hilary's.  Quite honestly I'm stumped as what to do next because either I'm missing something or there is no headstone on any grave but that seems unlikely.
What I intend to do now is to send an e-mail to St Hilary's and ask the secretary if there is a grave there and if so the number of it. 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 17, 2015, 09:53:16 PM
Hugo - if you have a look back to Hugh's post on 10/03/15 @ 0827, it looks as if he has found the burial details for Edward and Margaret.  Both are in St Hilary's and as he found them in the Burial Register there should be a plot number.

St Hilary's is administered from the Parish Office at St David's in Penrhyn Bay, possibly they have a plan there.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2015, 10:08:40 PM
Thanks Cambrian, it's the plot number I'm looking for and that will be enough to trace the Graves.   I had intended to e-mail St David's but couldn't find the e-mail address.
I have contacted St David's about graves in Llanrhos in the past and the secretary is very helpful there so tomorrow I think that I'll phone them instead.  I'm puzzled by the fact that I haven't found the grave in the Burial Records as I would have thought that they had a headstone, but I should know the reason soon.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 18, 2015, 12:28:17 PM
I called at St David's Church in Penrhyn Bay this morning and spoke to the secretary there.   The records that they have do not have the grave number and are exactly the same as those in the Archives and she brought their copy of the records out and it is just a copy of the one in the Archives.
They do not have a record of where the graves are in St Hilary's and suggested that I contact Cardiff instead.

Later I went to Glan Conwy and took some photos of No 7 Pentai and one of the whole street looking from the Bryn Eglwys end.   By chance I saw my friend there who now owns No 7 and we had another good chat while enjoying the warm Spring weather.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 18, 2015, 02:36:26 PM
Hugo, the original No 7 was for many years the home of Tom Gill, a noted steam engine driver at Llandudno Junction who later served as verger at the church. He was a nephew of the Lucy Hughes who lived at Bryn Eglwys.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2015, 08:22:38 AM
That's a name from the past,  I never met Tom Gill, but I knew a lot of people who worked at the Junction and they always spoke highly of him
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 19, 2015, 10:08:44 PM
As St Hilary's Church is in the Diocese of St Asaph, I sent an e-mail to St Asaph today asking if they can tell me the location of the grave for Edward and Margaret.     I also asked them if they do not have the record of the burial plots, then where should I apply to for that information.
As soon as I receive a reply I'll post it up on here.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 20, 2015, 07:40:14 AM
I have been digging through the on-line records to trace Edward and Margaret's history.  I mentioned previously the Edward was the illegitimate son of a David Davies and Elinor Hughes in 1810. I then focused on Margaret Davies. Her baptism record in 1816 showed that she was the daughter of Hugh Davies and Dorothy Jones of Tyddyn Iolyn.  I decided to see who else had lived at that farm and did a 'House Name' search of the Census records.

The only hit was for the 1881 Census and showed William and Mary Jones and their family members, but lo and behold, there was a William Davies 14 listed as a Farm Servant. This would have been William's age at the date of the 1881 Census. On the image, his place of birth shows "Do    Do", which also appears against the previous three entries all under under "Denbighshire  Eglwysbach". My assumption is that William would not have completed the Census himself so any error would have been detected by him.

The only other record I have found is for 1901 where Charles and Ellen Roberts were residing there.  Other properties around Tyddyn Iolyn include Pen Rhiw, Rhiw, Berllan Bach, Morfa and Dyto (1901) Fron Isa (1891).   Do you know if Tyddyn Iolyn still exists?

Hugo, I have my fingers crossed for a good result from St Asaph.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2015, 10:39:19 AM
Hugh,  Tyddyn Iolyn does still exist but it is now a ruin and has no access to it from the road.     It is about 2 miles from Eglwysbach and is near Coed Iolyn  (Iolyn Woods) and is some distance from the road.    It is at the top of a very steep and zig zag narrow road.
I went up there to take a photo of the place but it is now on private farmland and the ground was muddy so I didn't go to it.   
I'll try again when the weather improves.
That William isn't your Grandfather as you already have him on the 1881 Census at Brickfiels and the age at Brickfields is correct whereas the Eglwysbach one is not
The other names of the properties around Tyddyn Iolyn give you an idea of the type of area that surrounds Tyddyn Iolyn.    Rhiw in English means hill so Pen Rhiw  (Hill top)  Rhiw  (Hill) Berllan Bach  (Little Orchard)  Morfa   (Marsh) and Fron Isa  (Lower breast of hill)

I'll let you know as soon as I hear from St Asaph but I am surprised that St David's Church hasn't got a plan of the graves as a few years ago I was looking for my Grandfather's grave there and they gave me the location and the grave didn't have a headstone.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 20, 2015, 12:07:50 PM
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That William isn't your Grandfather as you already have him on the 1881 Census at Brickfiels and the age at Brickfields is correct whereas the Eglwysbach one is not

Oops! Rush of blood! Of course you are correct. It just threw me when I saw a William Davies working at a property once housing William's relatives.  Thank you for your attempt at photographing the remains of Tyddyn Iolyn, but take care.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2015, 01:04:42 PM
I've done the same myself Hugh when I've got carried away looking for someone.     I saw Tyddyn Iolyn  from the road but my camera is basic and only has a  4X zoom lens but if my mate Tellytubby was with me he would have been able to take a photo with his 41x zoom camera.
Don't worry but we'll get a photo sometime.     
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2015, 02:17:56 PM
Hugh,  if you want to see Tyddyn Iolyn on Google street view just put in Eglwysbach, then click on maps.
Go South down from the village and as you are looking at the screen go left at the staggered cross roads and follow that road on your left

Switch to the satellite image and go  along the road, past Backtrack Camping and carry on until you see Cefn Y Coed Uchaf and stop there.

Across the road and in the middle of a few trees are two buildings and that is where I was told by a young farmer, is where Tyddyn Iolyn is.    It looks like it has a good roof but when I saw it through my binoculars the roof has large holes in it.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2015, 05:39:39 PM
Cambrian, you are probably aware of it but I came across this when I was looking on line for graves in the Llanrhos Cemetery.   It's a sad reminder of World War I   

In memory of Private D Wynne
Rank:PrivateService No:14560Date of Death:01/05/1915    Age:29Regiment/Service:Royal Welsh Fusiliers 11th Bn.    Grave Reference:III. I. 1B.Cemetery:LLANRHOS (SS. ELERI AND MARY) CHURCHYARD
Additional Information:Son of David and Margaret Wynne, of Brickfield Cottage, Llandudno
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 22, 2015, 08:22:34 AM
Hugo/Cambrian,

There has been considerable comment relating to the Davies clan working/running farms in the Llanwrst/Llandudno area. What sort of farming would this have been.  I would guess it would be sheep, but would be keen to have this confirmed.  I have been struggling with the "proper" recording of the information collected, particularly in the area of citation of sources. Finding how to cite Findmypast records is turning out to be more difficult than finding my relatives!

Hugo, I followed your excellent directions re finding Tyddyn Iola on Google maps. I went to the "Street" view and was able to capture a distant image of the buildings.  I noted on a previous post that a William and Mary Jones were listed as residents of Tyddyn Iola in the 1881 Census. Sadly, I found the attached newspaper article relating to this family.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 22, 2015, 10:54:49 AM
Hugh,  did you see the two buildings from an aerial photograph or just from the street?     The aerial one is best because you can see their location quite clearly and you also have an idea of the surrounding countryside.
That notice in the papef was sad to see.   The Denbigh asylum was a large institution where they kept people with very bad mental health issues.. It would have been hard for the family to cope then as they didn't have the help that they have nowadays.

Cambrian may have more idea of the farming that the various Davies' did but sheep would certainly be one of the types of farming but Marl Farm also had cattle and possibly crops too.
Where Marl Bach and Maes Gwyn are situated, I have been told that they grew potatoes there and because of it's southerly location they had some of the earliest potatoes in the area.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 22, 2015, 06:12:09 PM
Farming in the lower Conwy Valley tends to be fairly mixed arable with both dairy and beef cattle and some sheep.

One source which Hugh does not seem to have covered are the Tithe Records from the 1840s.  These give the size of each holding and sometimes it is possible to have a guess at what the farm's main activity was.  The Tithe Schedules were done on an (Ecclesiastical) Parish basis.  From memory I think most of the originals are in the National Library of Wales at Aberystwyth but copies are held at the County Archives locally. The other source is the Enclosure Awards again for a similar period, copies are usually at the Archives.

I have had a look at a printed note I have of the Enclosure Awards for Eglwysrhos and Llangwstennin.  Unfortunately nothing matches exactly - there is a "Maes" near Marl Gate House and Morfa Cottage which was 3 roods and 1 perch in extent so quite a small holding.
Marl Bach is probably  included in "Marl demesne" which is over 247 acres.

The Tithe records list each field associated with a property and give the acreage and names.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 23, 2015, 05:31:01 AM
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Hugh,  did you see the two buildings from an aerial photograph or just from the street?     The aerial one is best because you can see their location quite clearly and you also have an idea of the surrounding countryside.
That notice in the papef was sad to see.   The Denbigh asylum was a large institution where they kept people with very bad mental health issues.. It would have been hard for the family to cope then as they didn't have the help that they have nowadays.

Cambrian may have more idea of the farming that the various Davies' did but sheep would certainly be one of the types of farming but Marl Farm also had cattle and possibly crops too.
Where Marl Bach and Maes Gwyn are situated, I have been told that they grew potatoes there and because of it's southerly location they had some of the earliest potatoes in the area.


Hugo,
I have capture both the aerial view as well as the street view. The street view is not great, but I'm happy to capture any and all information.

Cambrian,
Are the Tithe Records and/or Enclosure Awards available online as a searchable database?  Would love to delve into that area if available.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2015, 09:21:12 AM
I'll get close up photos of Tyddyn Iolyn for you as soon as I can, maybe in a week or so.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 23, 2015, 04:01:46 PM
Hugh,  just an after thought but you may already be aware of it.   Put " National Library of Wales " in Google and there is a lot of info available for you.
It also has Newspapers online covering 1804 - 1919 which you might find useful.     The ones that may be the most help for you at present are the Llandudno Advertiser and the North Wales Weekly News.    The Llandudno Advertiser covers Llandudno and the North Wales Weekly News covers a wide area of North Wales including Llandudno
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on March 23, 2015, 04:03:03 PM
Hugh - I am not sure about on line access.  Could I suggest you look at the National Library of Wales website and Conwy Archives one.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2015, 03:52:30 PM
Hugh,  I went back to Eglwysbach today to have a look at Tyddyn Iolyn.  It's on land belonging to Bodnant Estates and there is no direct  access to the old farm.   It's very rural and about 2 miles outside of the actual village of Eglwysbach and up a very steep 33% hill so I went to a farm called Tyn Y Bryn and spoke to a very nice lady who gave me permission to cross her land to see Tyddyn Iolyn.   She did also say that some builders had also asked her for permission to cross her land and they had done some work to the roof and propped up certain parts of the building.
After parking my car and changing into my walking boots I went across the fields and was surprised by the number of Rabbits that were running about.   There is in fact a very muddy track that leads you down to Tyddyn Iolyn and there are 3 detached buildings on the land. There are two large barns, one of which has a tin roof and the other is a slate roof.    The house itself is small and has a chimney on the gable end.   It was originally on two floors and there seems to be the ruins of some type of building at the other gable end.    I crawled in through the narrow open window and the ceiling was very low but may have been higher as there was a lot of dirt on the floor.   At one end there is a large inglenook fireplace with a huge wooden lintel and it had an old bread oven inside the fireplace. Large wooden beams supported the first floor level but there only appeared to be the one room downstairs.    I've taken a few photos and posted some of them here, the last one is when I was leaving the village and took it through the car windscreen
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 24, 2015, 03:55:17 PM
Tyddyn Iolyn Eglwysbach
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 25, 2015, 02:40:44 PM
Hugh, as I had not had a reply to my e-mail, I sent a reminder directly to the Secretary and had an immediate acknowledgement.  My request has been passed to the Rector and a reply will be issued shorty.
As soon as I receive it I'll let you know on here.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on March 26, 2015, 04:30:26 AM
Hugo. Many thanks for the photos and you efforts re the graves of Edward and Margaret. I have been a bit flat of late so have not been as engaged as much as I'd like to. I have also begun to put together a "Location" document with maps and photos (the ones you have been kind enough to post). This will make it a lot easier for me to visualise the Davies movements. 

Cambrian. I had a look at both the National Library and Conway Archive sites but neither had on-line access to Tithe records. However, I intend to revisit both sites to see what information I can find.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 26, 2015, 09:38:55 AM
Although the smallest building is the main farmhouse, it's window and doors had a strange layout.    I'm afraid that I didn't take a photo showing the other side of the building but I did take one from inside the building.  It's a poor photo taken into the light but you can make it out where the builders have propped up the large opening.
The other barn with the tin roof has a more traditional house look to it and there is a small fireplace in the room on the left of the building but it looks like the chimney has been removed
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 30, 2015, 02:50:24 PM
Not heard a thing from the Church so I phoned up today but had no reply.    There was no massage facility so I sent another e-mail, this time to the Llanrhos Secretary.
Hope that it's not too long before I get a response
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 31, 2015, 12:52:24 PM
Hugh,  I still cannot find the house in the 1841 Census that looked to me like it was called Piccadilly,  but from the other two properties on the same page then it must be near Tyddyn Iolyn which was in the same township of Cefn Y Coed.
I've looked again at the site I found at British History Online and looked at the map on sheet 006 and zoomed in on Tyddyn Iolyn.   What I found interesting was that there are four detached properties on that site whereas when I visited it recently I only saw three.
The fourth property would be to the right of the one with the tin roof but now there is just a pile of stones there.  At the time of my visit I did wonder what purpose those stones would have been for.

You have done a lot of searching but have you found either William or Elizabeth in the 1891 Census?       In the 1891 Census we know that Margaret was living in Glan Conwy and died later that year and that her husband  Edward had already died so William might have gone to live with a relative.      It's unlikely that William was living with his mother Elizabeth as she wasn't bringing him up according to the 1881 Census so it's still a mystery.
By the way I've looked at the list of William Davies' that you supplied previously and we know your William was the one at No 25 but have you any idea about the  ( William Widower) that was mentioned on the form?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on March 31, 2015, 08:01:10 PM
As I haven't heard anything from my e-mails to the Church,  I went to the Archives again to check the Llanrhos Burial Index.  I was concerned in case I had overlooked something and just wanted to recheck everything.
As it turned out nothing was found from the recheck but I did see something that interested me personally.   The Burial Index is done alphabetically in a persons name and also their address so when I saw Brickfields I had a look there.   It turned out that the person buried there was a distant relation of mine!   It's a small world.

While I was there I was thinking of a way to find the address where your Father was born in Cwlach Street.    So here's what I did,  I looked again at the Llandudno Rates Book for 1910 and listed all the people living in Cwlach Street at that time and their addresses.
I then used one of the names to access the 1911 Census and then I listed all the names of the people and their addresses who were in Cwlach Street at the Census date.  I know that William wasn't living there then but at least I had the details of those people who were.

I then walked along Cwlach Street looking at the names of the properties and found 2 Fron Cottages, although it is no longer called that.
It is next to Daisy Bank, which has still retained it's name and is now one  cottage.   Originally it was two cottages and William Jones was living in No 1 in 1910 and your Father was living in No 2.     The building would have had two front doors but has been altered and only one door exists now but the two chimneys remain.
Ironically this was the house I called at previously and the lady who has lived there didn't know that it was previously called Fron Cottage.
Next door on the other side is a terrace of four cottages that was once called Queen Street and where my G Grandfather lived.   It was called Brooke Cottages in the 1910 Census and was probably renamed that on account of the fact that the Copper Mine manager George Brookes owned all four of them and in fact two of his daughters lived in two of the cottages in the mid 1800's.

The photo is of Fron Cottages,  No 2 would have been the one on the left.      As you look at the cottage Daisy Bank is on the right and Brooke Cottages  (aka  Queen Street) is on the left.
Another photo of Fron Cottage showing Daisy Bank the cream coloured house on the right
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 01, 2015, 02:37:19 AM
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Hugh,  I still cannot find the house in the 1841 Census that looked to me like it was called Piccadilly,  but from the other two properties on the same page then it must be near Tyddyn Iolyn which was in the same township of Cefn Y Coed.
I've looked again at the site I found at British History Online and looked at the map on sheet 006 and zoomed in on Tyddyn Iolyn.   What I found interesting was that there are four detached properties on that site whereas when I visited it recently I only saw three.
The fourth property would be to the right of the one with the tin roof but now there is just a pile of stones there.  At the time of my visit I did wonder what purpose those stones would have been for.

You have done a lot of searching but have you found either William or Elizabeth in the 1891 Census?       In the 1891 Census we know that Margaret was living in Glan Conwy and died later that year and that her husband  Edward had already died so William might have gone to live with a relative.      It's unlikely that William was living with his mother Elizabeth as she wasn't bringing him up according to the 1881 Census so it's still a mystery.
By the way I've looked at the list of William Davies' that you supplied previously and we know your William was the one at No 25 but have you any idea about the  ( William Widower) that was mentioned on the form?

Hugo. Firstly, many thanks once again for your research and photos.

As for the 1841 Census, I have attached a summary of all Census images from Cefn Y Coed. I noticed that some properties appeared more than once, including the one that looks like "Piccadilly".  I don't know if this will provide any more insight into identifying the property but it is interesting. I did this mainly to provide a snapshot of Edward and Margaret's neighbours in 1841.

I have also been busy capturing all of the information I have relating to my relatives plus putting together Location documents containing your photos, Google Map images, British History Online maps and other information about each location.

Your message has served to remind me about the gaps still to be investigated/resolved.  So, I will start trying to locate Elizabeth from 1871 onwards, and William's location in the 1881 Census.  The next step will be the Pen Y Groes history. I have tried on a couple of occasions to contact the Nantlle Valley website (http://www.nantlle.com/history-nantlle-baladeulyn.htm (http://www.nantlle.com/history-nantlle-baladeulyn.htm)) to have a message posted on their Noticeboard. However, I have yet to receive any response, and I note that the latest message on their Noticeboard is dated 2013.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 01, 2015, 02:46:36 AM
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So, I will start trying to locate Elizabeth from 1871 onwards, and William's location in the 1881 Census. 

Oooops! I should have said "locate Elizabeth from 1881 and William's location in the 1891 Census."
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 01, 2015, 08:09:46 AM
Hugh,   I was also thinking about William's life from the 1911 Census onwards and the next step for you.
At the start of World War I  on 28th July 1914  William would have been nearly 39 and could have been conscripted into the War.    If he had of been then he would most likely have gone into the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.   I've not even looked at that but I did look in the Llanrhos Burial  Index yesterday regarding the war dead to see if there was a grave for William there but there wasn't.

I don't know why William would have gone to Penygroes in the first place with having such a strong family tie with this area but there must have been a reason.
Did your Father ever mention where they moved to?

It's up to you what you want to do next but if it was me then I'd contact the Gwynedd Archives direct and for the relatively small cost it would be better to let their researcher do half an hours work to help you get started.
I would ask them to do the following with their alloted time:-
Ascertain all the names of the people eligible to vote in the 1929 voters list who live at 2 Treddafydd  Penygroes  Gwynedd
                     ditto                                                                1913                ditto
Find the graves of William and Catherine Davies  in Penygroes

If they can find the graves and give you the plot number it's unlikely that they have a photo of it but I go walking in the mountains in that area occasionally and I'll gladly take a photo for you 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DVT on April 01, 2015, 10:47:05 AM
Looking at that 1841 census list I recognise a lot of the place names as being in the area to the south-east of Tal-y-Cafn, between the A470 and the road runnign north-south through Eglwysbach ... mainly on the road to Llyn Syberi.  But they don't seem to be in any particular order.  Looking at old-maps.co.uk I can pinpoint most of the places on that census - some still exist, some are long gone.

I was brought up in Tal-y-Cafn and my father was one of the estate maintenance workers for Bodnant Estate, from 1935 to 1985, so I have been to many of the places on that list!

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 01, 2015, 07:18:59 PM
Do you know the place that looks like "Piccadilly" ?       It's an unusual name for the area and I think Cambrian mentioned Piccadilly Woods above Glan Conwy, so the building may be there.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 02, 2015, 05:03:15 AM
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Looking at that 1841 census list I recognise a lot of the place names as being in the area to the south-east of Tal-y-Cafn, between the A470 and the road runnign north-south through Eglwysbach ... mainly on the road to Llyn Syberi.  But they don't seem to be in any particular order.  Looking at old-maps.co.uk I can pinpoint most of the places on that census - some still exist, some are long gone.

I was brought up in Tal-y-Cafn and my father was one of the estate maintenance workers for Bodnant Estate, from 1935 to 1985, so I have been to many of the places on that list!


Thanks DVT. I got on to the site you mentioned but could not find the elusive "Piccadilly" property. It would seem that at some time after 1841 but before 1875 (earliest map on the site) either the property was destroyed or it was renamed for some reason. Hugo suggested it may have been a building associated with Tyddyn Iolyn based on the property names listed before and after the Piccadilly entry.  But as you observed, and as I discovered when putting the summary document together, even though the list was transcribed in the same order as the original Census image documents, they seemed to be a bit haphazard.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 02, 2015, 08:25:13 AM
I have no idea where Piccadilly may have been,  Cambrian mentioned Piccadilly Woods and that is probably where it was.  However for that to be correct Piccadilly Woods must have been in the Township of Cefn Y Coed.
DVT,   do you know where Piccadilly Woods was or is?
As regards the fourth building in Tyddyn Iolyn I have no idea what its purpose was or if it had another name.

While I was in Eglwysbach,  I was told that the Community Council for the village was compiling details of the village's history but I have no more information than that.  The impression I got was that it was about the village itself rather than the rural properties of which Tyddyn Iolyn was one.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 02, 2015, 09:41:48 AM
Taking a step back, I decided to look for William Davies in the 1891 Census records, and his mother Elizabeth Davies in the 1871, 1881 and the 1891 Census all based on the facts established. I used a new website FreeCEN (http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl (http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)) which is a great way of trawling through multiple, possible records.  I tried all combination such as "William Davies", "William", "Davies" and even blank given and surnames, all with a Llansaintffraid birth town. There was no possibility identified at all. A similar detailed search was made for Elizabeth Davies, but again, no possible records identified.

I could imagine unusual circumstances leading to an individual not being included in a Census - mistakes, misreading of Census images, other factors, but when this appears to have happened to a mother and son over several decades, it leaves me scratching my head. I would be glad to hear from anyone who has any suggestions for alternative searches.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 02, 2015, 10:42:26 AM
I've tried something similar but with no luck whatsoever.     The trouble could be with the Census records that are not always correct, for instance they may have put the wrong place of birth on the form.
Perhaps it's time to move forward and explore for William after 1911.     The Archive researcher at Caernarfon may be the easiest and best way to proceed.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DVT on April 02, 2015, 03:39:30 PM
I suspect, and this is only a guess, that Piccadilly would be the woodland referred to as Coed Goleu on later maps - the area is at map reference 800699 on the current OS maps (it is on the border of sheets 115 and 116).  I am only guessing as Llety is to the NW of that woodland, and Berllan to the SE.

I think it was, and possibly still is, part of the Bodnant Estate.  Certainly Meddiant Ucha, Garth and Penllyn farms were as my father did electrical work on them!  Unfortunately my father is no longer with us, he knew the estate inside out!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 03, 2015, 11:25:23 AM
Thanks DVT for that info.   I had a look again at the 1841 Census that Hugh provided and there are two Piccadilly's there with two different families.   In fact there are a number of others with the same name listed on that Census.
Your Father was lucky to work in that area of outstanding natural beauty,  it hasn't been spoilt over the years and there are some lovely properties in that area.
The roads are another thing though, just about wide enough for a tractor and I was lucky to be by a passing place when I met one coming the other way!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 04, 2015, 07:38:30 AM
Just been reading again about Pensarn Farm, another Davies connection, and on 14th Nov 2014 DWSI  posted this link which may be helpful for any one doing research

Copies of Welsh tithe maps are now available online, this might help with your search http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/ (http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 05, 2015, 05:43:50 PM
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Just been reading again about Pensarn Farm, another Davies connection, and on 14th Nov 2014 DWSI  posted this link which may be helpful for any one doing research

Copies of Welsh tithe maps are now available online, this might help with your search http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/ (http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/)

Thanks Hugo.  I have searched the site and found the attached detail relating to "Tyddyn Iolyn". However, having Welsh blood does not result in the ability to recognise welsh words/phrases.  I would like to translate the image (as part of the project on the web site), but want to capture the land portion names/descriptions accurately. So.... If you or others are willing to help, could you please let me know what you think the welsh words are aligned to each land parcel.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on April 05, 2015, 07:30:46 PM
Hugh

I will have a stab at these but Hugo may be able to give some suggestions as well.  Some of the names are not quite decipherable and, of course, there are Welsh mutations to factor in as well as the fact that the writer may not have been a fluent Welsh-speaker.  So here goes:

Bryn - usually means a hill or in this context may mean higher ground.

Homestead - as English

Cae Sgybor - a corruption of Cae Ysgybor.  Barn Field.

Cae Conbren - a bit difficult but a guess would be Corn Head Field.

Cae Gwyn - White (or Holy Field).  May relate to the lighter colour of the soil.

Ffridd Penardd - Hilly pasture above the garden

Ffridd Ganol - Middle Hilly Pasture

Winllan - The Wood

Cae Bryn - Hill Field

Croft - as English

Cae Slaty(?) - Could mean field of the sledge hut (house).

Hope this is of interest for starters.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 05, 2015, 10:42:12 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Cambrian on most of the translations but am not sure on two of them:-

Cae Conbren      Cae obviously means field but Conbren could be two words put together and a mutation changes the second part of the word       Con  =  no idea of this word  but Can could mean white
               Pren  = Tree  or  wood

Cae Slaty         Again I have no idea but would hedge a guess at:-
                     Cae  =  field
                    Slaty  =  Slatey  as in the slate rock (  A mixture of Welsh and English perhaps)

Again I'm not sure of these two but would appreciate any suggestions
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DVT on April 06, 2015, 09:06:15 AM
I think "Winllan" is the Welsh for Vineyard.  Could refer to an orchard or fruit-growing area?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on April 06, 2015, 09:21:27 AM
Thanks, Hugo/DVT - those seem more accurate.  I wonder if "Slaty" may refer to shaley land.  The field is used for pasture which suggests it might be rocky. Folk may have used an English term - this was not uncommon in field names.

Hugo - could Cae Conbren mean wooden something such as a horn ?

I missed out

Erw Fardir -  I think his could be a corruption of Maer Dir thus "Steward's field acre".

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2015, 10:45:28 AM
Winllan or Gwynllan to give it its full name does mean Vineyard in the dictionary but whether they grew grapes in that high exposed ground is debateable.      If it was an orchard you would have thought that they would have used Berllan instead and there are a few "Berllans" in that area in the 1841 Census.

Cambrian,  I have no idea of the actual meaning of Cae Conbren,   as Pren,  meaning wood normally refers to wood that has been cut and worked so I wouldn't like to have a guess on that
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2015, 03:36:59 PM
 Cambrian wrote   "Erw Fardir -  I think his could be a corruption of Maer Dir thus "Steward's field acre"

I must admit that I'm stuck on this one as it doesn't make any sense at all unless there has been some mistake or rather misspelling.  I looked at my Welsh dictionary and tried on line too  but nothing came up.

I tried to think how some one who wasn't fluent in Welsh would think and pronounce words and had an idea, but I wouldn't back myself on it whatsoever but it made me laugh.

Erw  =  acre
Ffa    =  beans
Dir    =  certain or necessary
Tir     =  land

So it could be an acre of beans   or a necessary acre of beans     ???

I'd love to know what it really meant and hope someone will know the answer.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on April 06, 2015, 04:31:51 PM
I have given some more thought to Erw Fardir.  I now believe it is Clay Acre.  Mardir is a derivation of Marl Land.

We seem to have missed Ffuches Lai.  This could well be "smaller milking place".
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 06, 2015, 05:43:20 PM
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I have given some more thought to Erw Fardir.  I now believe it is Clay Acre.  Mardir is a derivation of Marl Land.

We seem to have missed Ffuches Lai.  This could well be "smaller milking place".

You could well be correct on Erw Fardir  but it may remain a mystery for now.  As for Ffuches Lai,  that's another one I've never heard of.   
 Llai  definitely means smaller  but I've never heard of Ffuches   I've only heard of a dairy being called llaethdy before.    Where did you see it as milking place?

I've found Fuches on line and it means "herd"   so Furches Lai means smaller herd in English.       No wonder it was hard to find as there are two mutations there and Fuches is not even in my dictionary,  Perhaps it's a South Walian word.    ???
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 07, 2015, 09:29:46 AM
Wow!  I have now decided not to attempt to become involved in the Tithe transcription project seeing how much of a challenge it has been for such a pool of knowledgeable intellects as yourselves. However, having said that, the suggested English translation of the Tithe document has given me a more in-depth knowledge of the property Tyddyn Iolya.

I have been doing some more digging and find that Margaret's parents had a late edition to their family - Abel Davies. They were living in Cefyn y Coed according to the 1841 census (image attached).  I am hoping someone will be able to tell me the property name and its location.

In addition, I have found yet another illegitimate addition to the family. Margaret's sister Elizabeth gave birth to an illegitimate child Anne in 1833. I know I should move on, but the depth of information available around the early years is intoxicating.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on April 07, 2015, 02:42:50 PM
Hugo - I found it in the online Geriadur Prifysgol Cymru. It can also mean byre, cattle fold etc. There's quite bit there if you are interested.  It may stem from "buarth".  If you look in the post code directory, premises with "Fuches" in the name tend to be more common in Mid-Wales. Regional variations do occur in Welsh quite often, eg, round here "erw" is quite usual for "acre" but in Flintshire you will come across "acre" or "accra" or similar.  Interestingly there's a farm in Penmachno called "Fuches Goch".
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on April 07, 2015, 02:45:38 PM
Hugh - When you say they were living at Cefyn y Coed, do you mean the township as my reading of the extract is they were at Ffrith Wen.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 07, 2015, 03:31:31 PM
Thanks Cambrian for that info on Fuches and as you say there are Regional variations in the Welsh language but even so I would have expected them to be in a dictionary. I'll have a look at the site you have mentioned and thanks again.

Ffrith Wen is in the old township of Cefn Y Coed and can't be too far away from Tyddyn Iolyn although I haven't checked out the map yet.

Hugh,   I was in the Archives for a very short time today as the weather today has been warm and sunny and too good to be indoors for long.
In the Eglwysbach Burial Index  I found the following epitaph which was in Welsh but I've translated it into English for you.:-
 
Grave No B005
In memory of William Jones, Tyddyn Iolyn,  he died June 1st 1885 aged 81,  Also Margaret Jones wife of William Jones she died 7th  June 1887 aged 84

I haven't heard from Llanrhos Church yet but will remind them again
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 09, 2015, 10:02:04 AM
I still haven't heard from Llanrhos Church so I phoned this morning and a recorded message said that the Parish office opens again on the 13th April 2015,  so I'm afraid that the matter will have to wait a bit longer.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 11, 2015, 11:23:12 AM
I've been up and down Ffordd Cyffylog in Eglwysbach looking for the property called Llwynonn and even the lady delivering the post had not heard of it.  I was slightly puzzled about it because I can usually find addresses but hadn't quite given up on Llwynonn.
Anyway, this morning a new postman came to my house and we chatted about the weather and he mentioned that he had been delivering in Eglwysbach yesterday so I asked him about Llwynonn.      No wonder I couldn't find it, the name has been changed to Llygad Yr Haul (eye of the Sun )  and in actual fact I had parked my car next to this property when I was looking for Llwynonn.

Now I know where it is I'll take a photo when I'm in that area next.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DVT on April 11, 2015, 12:54:55 PM
Ah, you beat me to it!!!  I attended Eglwysbach School from 1954 to 1959, and my sister a couple of years after me.  We could both remember a John Llwyn Onn and a David Llwyn Onn, and knew they'd move to a farm (Henblas) on the edge of the village.  Neither of us could remember where Llwyn Onn was.

I occasionally see someone who was in that school with me and he would definitely have known.  Unfortunately, not bumped into him for a while!!!

My sister and I both thought Llwyn Onn was in the village but from your comments suspect it wasn't!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 11, 2015, 02:15:20 PM
The Postman said Llygad Yr Haul was the second building on the right as you turn in to Ffordd Gyffylog.   I remember the place because of a private no parking notice in the front of the building.
When I was looking for info in the Archives I came across a booklet that may be of interest to you as you attended Eglwysbach school.
The booklet is about the history of the school from when it was built in the 1830's I think, to recent times.  There are a number of photos of the school children in it and you never know but you may be included in it DVT.
There wasn't anything about the Davies family in it so I only had a quick read through it
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 11, 2015, 02:33:21 PM
DVT,   I've had a look on Google streetview at that property and am not entirely convinced that it was Llwyn Onn.     The building is an old bungalow,  sympathetically modernised  but it doesn't seem to be old enough to fit in with the Davies family of the 1800's.
Llwyn Onn as you know means Ash Grove in English but there isn't a tree in sight by the bungalow.
I have seen a property higher up the road that fits the location  of Llwyn Onn but that property has another name.
If you do bump into your old friends I'd appreciate it if you could get the location of Llwyn Onn from them and post it on here.

Zoopla describes Llwyn Onn as a detached freehold house with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms and 2 reception rooms but there is no photo of it.    :rage:
It seems that the bungalow which the postman described to me is unlikely to be Llwyn Onn as it doesn't look big enough to have all those rooms that we know Llwyn Onn has.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 14, 2015, 07:58:52 PM
I phoned yesterday and was advised by the secretary that the Parish Church only had a record of the graves with headstones ( just like the archives)
She had  discussed the  matter with the Reverend prior to Easter and he said that he will be phoning me about the matter, so I am just awaiting the phone call.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 16, 2015, 12:44:27 PM
Still no phone call from the Church but today I went to the Archives while my car was having its MOT   $good$    and had a look at the Burial Index for Eglwysbach but could find no entry for Hugh and Dorothy Davies of Ffrith Wen.  I also looked in the Glan Conwy Burial Index but no trace there either.
I did find an entry for Abel Davies in Eglwysbach though, but it only listed his wife though but it is possible that he was buried with her and the headstone was not updated with his details.
The inscription in Welsh translates into English as follows:-
In memory of Mary, dear wife of Abel Davies, Tyddyn Cynal  Gyffin,  she died May 14th 1886 aged 65
" For me, to live is Christ and dying is gain "
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on April 19, 2015, 09:41:43 AM
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Still no phone call from the Church but today I went to the Archives while my car was having its MOT   $good$    and had a look at the Burial Index for Eglwysbach but could find no entry for Hugh and Dorothy Davies of Ffrith Wen.  I also looked in the Glan Conwy Burial Index but no trace there either.
I did find an entry for Abel Davies in Eglwysbach though, but it only listed his wife though but it is possible that he was buried with her and the headstone was not updated with his details.
The inscription in Welsh translates into English as follows:-
In memory of Mary, dear wife of Abel Davies, Tyddyn Cynal  Gyffin,  she died May 14th 1886 aged 65
" For me, to live is Christ and dying is gain "

Thank you Hugo.  I may be off line for a period as my mother (94), according to her doctor, is in the last phase of her life. Given the current quality of her existence, my hope is for a peaceful, pain-free transition. My brothers will be arriving soon, one at the end of this month and the other at the end of May. However, I will jump in when I can.


Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 19, 2015, 11:09:14 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Hugh and my thoughts are with you and all your family at this sad time, we'll catch up again in the future.
 
I've still not heard from the Church but as I've sent 3 e-mails and made numerous phone calls I'm starting to wonder why they can't tell me about all the graves including the unmarked ones.    I contacted them years ago about my Grandfather's grave in Llanrhos and they were able to tell me straight away even though he had an unmarked grave.   There are records of the plots but where are they kept now?
 
I was having a drink with a friend a few weeks ago and we discussed this and he made an unsubstantiated allegation that the Church had loaned the records to some one some time ago and they were never returned and the Church didn't record who they lent the records to.
It's just an allegation but I'm starting to wonder why no one can tell me where they are.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 20, 2015, 11:20:01 PM
Hugh,  this is a very early photo of Esgyryn Farm that someone who has been following your research, very kindly let me have a copy of it.  The Davies family are outside but I don't know their names or the date of the photo.  Apparently the farmhouse was a place where members of the various Davies family would meet up. The white part to the left was a lean-to shed  where they kept their cart.
The farmhouse has since been very sympathetically modernised and I've posted a recent photo on here previously.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on April 30, 2015, 10:36:36 PM
Hugh,  the first two photos are of the grave of William and Margaret Jones of Tyddyn Iolyn and the third and fourth are of the grave of Mary Davies the wife of Abel Davies.  The headstone of Mary is leaning forward quite a bit now.
I don't know where Abel is buried but if I'm right, he died in 1879  therefore before Mary.   The death was registered in Conway District in the quarter Oct - Dec 1879.
The graves are in St Martin's Church in Eglwysbach.   While I was there I came across a grave  for a William Davies and took a photo anyway just in case your research shows him to be one of your ancestors
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on May 05, 2015, 05:05:22 PM
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I don't know if you know where and when Edward and Margaret died as I can't find them in the 1891 Census and I did look in the Llandudno Register of Burials up to 1891 but they were not there either.
According to the 1911 Street Index Brickfield Cottages were no longer there so Edward and Margaret may have moved address in the meantime.
Hugo. For some obscure reason, I had not previously searched for the burial/death details for Edward or Margaret until your request. I have now found both as follows:

 - Image of "Burials in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos" shows and entry on p70 entry no 554 for Edward Davies, Brick-Field Cottage Eglwys Rhos buried on 5 Jan 1887.

 - Image of "Burials in the Parish of Eglwys Rhos" shows and entry on p97 entry no 772 for Margaret Davies, Conway Union late Ty-Brick buried on June 15 1891. There is an entry on the 1991 Census for a Margaret Davies, living at Cottage, Village, Llansaintffraid Glan Conway as a widowed lodger living on her own means.

I am not sure if the two records, the burial record and the 1991Census, agree completely, but my guess is that they do.

If this leads to the discovery of their graves then I will be immensely grateful. If not it fills in some important data.

I have had no contact from the Rector so I went to the Archives again and as I was going  in,  I met a local historian that I knew and spent some time chatting to him.   I explained the situation to him and was quite surprised by what he had to say to me.   I was told that the Church does not have a record of where each grave is, just a record of if that person is buried in the Churchyard.  I still find it incomprehensible that each plot is not recorded by the Church with the names of those people buried there.
I did check the Llanrhos Burial Registry and have seen the two entries for Edward and Margaret.  In the case of Edward, John Davies the Vicar performed the ceremony and Margaret's was performed by a person called D W Davies.
It does not help in identifying the location of the grave(s) but at least it confirms that they were buried in the same Cemetery.   There is something called a Bishop's Transcripts which is held in the Archives but as this wouldn't lead me to the exact spot of the grave I didn't follow it through.
Sorry about that but it looks like the exact location of the grave in St Hilary's Church Llanrhos is not known.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2015, 10:29:37 AM
I have now had official contact from the Reverend and have been advised that "There is no plan or the church yard, with the position of graves for the dates you are looking for."
In the circumstances there is nothing further that can be done to establish the precise location of the graves of Edward and Margaret.  As St Hilary's Church graveyard was and still is the only Cemetery in the old Parish of Eglwysrhos then that must be where they are buried and hopefully they are  together there.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on May 30, 2015, 09:34:54 AM
Hi Hugo,

I very much appreciate your efforts to find the graves of Edward and Margaret. I am disappointed, more for your sake given your efforts, that there headstones could not be located, but at least I can be confident of the cemetery they were buried in.

My 94yo mother passed away very peacefully on the 18 May. I feel grateful that her suffering is ended. Due to the complexities in trying to get all families here at the time of the funeral it will not be until next Wednesday. 

In some respects this has given me a sense that I should spend more time with those still with us instead of searching for details of those who have passed. But by the same token, all four grandparents of our children have now passed, and my desire to record their lives and those that went before them is stronger than before.

Regards, Hugh
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on May 31, 2015, 10:50:04 AM
Hi Hugh,

I'm sorry to hear the news about your mother passing away but at least you know that she is not suffering now. 

It's important to spend time with your remaining family and friends as no one is here for ever, so we have to make the most of the time that we have with them.

At the same time it is nice to know where you came from as that has made you the person you are today.

When you are ready and if you want to find out any more about the past in North Wales then I'll gladly help you in any way I can.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 04, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
Hi Hugh, it's just an after thought in case you ever decide to continue with your search.   I did suggest that if you wanted to follow up the 1929 letter from your Grandmother who was believed to be living in Penygroes you could ask the Gwynedd Archives for a list of the people eligible to vote at that address.
What I forgot was that women were not eligible to vote until 1932, so if you did want that info you'd have to request a date after then.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 05, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
Hi Hugo,

It has been some considerable time since my last post.  I cannot believe the level of complexity in attending to my mother's funeral, estate, and interment requirements. It has been almost 4 months since her passing, and I have only just finalised everything.

Coincidental to your post yesterday, I decided to get back into my father's history tonight. The one line of investigation I needed to pursue was the letter written by my father's brother Richard Davies (on the death of my father) where he talks about his love of the mountains and the fact he was born in those mountains at his grandmothers house. You may recall that I could not find any positive records of my father's grandmother (on the Davies side) since giving birth to my father's father William, and so far, my father's grandmother on his mother's side remains a mystery. So, ordering a birth certificate for Richard Davies may provide very important information.

I started searching for Richard Davies records on FindMyPast, and interestingly found two records relating to school records. The first was a 1909 record for St George's National School (Infants), Llandudno for my father's eldest sibling Edward Davies(1905), living at (looks like B but also listed elsewhere as F)ron Cottage, Cwalch Street, matching the address on other records. The second is a 1910 record for both Edward and my father's second eldest sibling Richard Davies (1907) attending Dyffryn Road Council School whilst living at 7 Alexandra Rd, and most importantly "Left the Neighbourhood" on 15 December 1911.

The above school records also record Edward's and Richard's date of birth which provides a means of confirming any birth certificates ordered.

My investigation will continue, and I must admit this research has already given me a new boost in life.

Is there any information you can provide on the St George's National School (Infants), Llandudno or the Dyffryn Road Council School?

Regards and thanks
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 05, 2015, 05:32:48 PM
The National School of St George is in Church Walks and not far from Cwlach Street, my Mother and Uncles went there and I believe that some school records still exist in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno.
What the records are exactly I don't know.     I've posted some photos of the school for you.

I don't know much about Dyffryn Road School as I went to the Lloyd Street one ( it's now the Conwy Archives ) but here is a  photo of the school taken this week.

I'll write  again when I've read your posting properly
 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2015, 09:09:00 AM
Just a quick add on Hugh.   Don't worry about seeing the words Bron and Fron  they are actually the same word and meaning,  Fron being the mutated version of Bron and one of the quirks of the Welsh Language.
You can even see it as Vron  but that is the English version as we have no letter V in our Welsh alphabet

The original name of the property was Tai'nyfron    (sometimes Y Fron)   but it has obviously been shortened over the years and then dropped and the present owner of the property who has lived  there for 40 years didn't even know that when I spoke to her.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 06, 2015, 10:25:09 AM
Once again Hugo, my thanks for your consistent efforts.

The school records are from the ‘National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914’ collection. The details captured in the image are Admission No; (Re)Admission Date; Full Name; DOB; Address; Name of Parent/Guardian; Last School; If Exempted from Rel. Inst.; Withdrawal – Date of Last Attendance & Remarks.

I have posed this question before, but cannot seem to locate any answers (which are probably there). My father’s brother Richard talked about his birth being at his grandmother’s house in the ‘mountains’.  His birth location is shown as ‘Carnarvonshire’ in the 1911 Census. The North Wales BMD site shows births for a Richard Davies in Betws y Coed, Conwy County; Colwyn Bay, Conwy County; and Llandwrog, Gwynedd – Bangor.

The question is, which of these three locations would be considered most likely to be described as ‘in the mountains’? Given that both his older sibling Edward and younger sibling Hugh (my father) were both born in Llandudno, it would seem the birth area would not be too far away from Llandudno.  If I can narrow down the likely area, I can limit the number of Birth Certificates I have to order.

On a parallel note, what was the schooling structure around the early 1900’s. Both Edward and Richard appeared to attend ‘school’ at around three years of age. Looking at the records, this appeared to be the norm.  So, was this the modern day version of ‘kindergarten’ or ‘pre-school’? Was this free education or was there a fee for this?

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2015, 01:11:14 PM
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I have posed this question before, but cannot seem to locate any answers (which are probably there). My father’s brother Richard talked about his birth being at his grandmother’s house in the ‘mountains’.  His birth location is shown as ‘Carnarvonshire’ in the 1911 Census. The North Wales BMD site shows births for a Richard Davies in Betws y Coed, Conwy County; Colwyn Bay, Conwy County; and Llandwrog, Gwynedd – Bangor.

The question is, which of these three locations would be considered most likely to be described as ‘in the mountains’? Given that both his older sibling Edward and younger sibling Hugh (my father) were both born in Llandudno, it would seem the birth area would not be too far away from Llandudno.  If I can narrow down the likely area, I can limit the number of Birth Certificates I have to order.

On a parallel note, what was the schooling structure around the early 1900’s. Both Edward and Richard appeared to attend ‘school’ at around three years of age. Looking at the records, this appeared to be the norm.  So, was this the modern day version of ‘kindergarten’ or ‘pre-school’? Was this free education or was there a fee for this?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2015, 01:21:33 PM
Betws Y Coed is the most obvious choice as it is in the middle of the mountains, whereas Llanwnda is not but both Llanwnda and Penygroes have views of the mountains.
 Betws Y Coed is in the County of Conwy so therefore some records will be here in Llandudno in the County Archives if you need anything following up.
Your family has strong connections to the Conwy Valley on the Davies side of the family so there is a good possibility that there is a link to Betws Y Coed.
With regard to the schooling structure,  I can't tell you much about about it but the education was free.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 06, 2015, 04:44:32 PM
Is this the record you mean Hugh,  before you apply for the birth certificate would it be best to check the Baptism record first just to make sure?

DAVIES Richard  1907 Betws y Coed Conwy County Borough (Llandudno) BETWS/13/16
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 07, 2015, 03:22:37 AM
I haven't been able to locate an on-line baptism record for a Richard Davies so will have to take a punt with the Birth Certificate.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2015, 09:14:32 AM
Hugh,   they may have the actual Baptism Register in the Conwy Archives so I could have a look for you so put your money away for now and I'll check it out asap
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 07, 2015, 11:16:04 AM
Thanks Hugo I am indebted to you once again.  Richard's date of birth (from the school record) was 28/07/1907. By the way, I know the norm is to insert a quote of the relevant message being responded to, but despite clicking on the "Insert Quote" icon, nothing seems to happen.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 07, 2015, 05:10:59 PM
Hi Hugh,  I checked the Betws Y Coed Baptism Register for the period 1813 to Dec 1907 but unfortunately there was no entry for Richard Davies.
The Baptism Register for 1908 onwards was not in the Archives and may still be with the Church.
Sorry I can't help you with that one so now's the time to splash the cash on that Birth Certificate.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 10, 2015, 10:08:51 AM
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Hi Hugh,  I checked the Betws Y Coed Baptism Register for the period 1813 to Dec 1907 but unfortunately there was no entry for Richard Davies.
The Baptism Register for 1908 onwards was not in the Archives and may still be with the Church.
Sorry I can't help you with that one so now's the time to splash the cash on that Birth Certificate.

Unfortunately, the two potential references for Betws Y Coed and Colwyn Bay have proven not to be relevant to my Uncle Richard.  I have carried out some comparisons with Free BMD against the North Wales BMD sites and have ruled out all but one other possibility relating to Caernarvonshire for Llandwrog. I have sent an email to the Gwynedd Council Offices to get a relevant email contact to enable me to pursue this further.

Will let you know the outcome.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2015, 10:38:41 AM
Hugh, you have mentioned that Richard has said that he was born in his Grandmother's house but that you don't know where the house was.
His Grandmother was Elizabeth Davies but you haven't been able to find out if she married and if so where she was living.   
The other Grandmother was William Davies' wife's mother and I was wondering if the Census records for her will show where she was born and that may be an indication of the area where the other Grandmother lived.
I know it's clutching at straws but there is little to go on at present.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 20, 2015, 10:30:46 AM
Hi Hugo,

The importance of Richards birth address is that it was supposedly his grandmother's house. 

If it was his paternal grandmother (ie Elizabeth Davies), then that may provide some history as to her background - remembering that subsequent to the birth certificate of William Davies I have not been able to find a single trace of Elizabeth.

Alternatively, his maternal grandmother ? Jones is equally mysterious and could provide a lead to Richard's connection to the Jones side.

I have posted a request to Gwynedd Council re the one remaining possibility for Richard's Birth Certificate. Unfortunately, this is in complete opposition to the service provided by Conway Borough Council. I sent my request on 10 Sep to ascertain a contact to gain a Birth Certificate, and have tonight sent a follow-up email as I have not had a reply. If I don't receive a reply shortly, I will seek a certificate via the GRO website.

Still haven't solved the "Insert Quote" problem.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 30, 2015, 09:50:45 AM
What a difference a County makes!

When I ordered a Birth Certificate (my grandfather) from the Conwy County Registration Office, it was a very simple, straightforward and value added experience. I expected a similar experience when I ordered a Birth Certificate from Gwynedd Council for my uncle Richard Davies.

My initial request was made via their website on 10 September. In the absence of a reply, I sent a follow up email on 20 September. It was not until 22 September that I received a reply, requesting information which was sent (using their own form) on 23 September, and received a reply stating that a record was found and I could contact them by phone but would need a "UK Card Only" to facilitate payment.

I asked for clarification on this point on 24 September and drew their attention to my experience with Conwy. Having no reply, I sent a follow up email on 29 September and finally received a response stating that the Council can "only accept credit/debit cards registered in the UK".  I responded with my disappointment that I could not deal with a local office, suggested that they explore their current practices (with perhaps a phone call to Conwy Council) to enable a world focus rather than a UK only focus, and stated that I would order the certificate through the GRO (which is cheaper and very straight forward for overseas customers).

I have placed an order with GRO tonight, so hope to hear back soon.  Regards to all
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 03, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
Hope that you have better luck this time Hugh.    I've always found the Conwy Archives people very helpful in any searches that I've made and also the Conwy County Registration Office in Llandudno.    Glenys who worked there was extremely helpful when we were looking for your Grandfather's birth certificate.
It must be very frustrating for you in your research with you living so far away.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on October 04, 2015, 09:41:36 AM
Thanks Hugo,

Yes, my dealings with Glenys in supplying a copy of my Grandfather's birth certificate was nothing but positive, and had nothing to do with her Surname (Davies) http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/grin.gif (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/grin.gif)

I am feeling very positive about this record as I have ruled out every other matching Birth Record (again, mainly thanks to Glenys from the Conway RO). I am hopeful of gaining some very helpful information.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 04, 2015, 11:46:10 AM
I hope that you get some luck this time with your request, Richard Davies is a relatively common name so you need a bit of luck getting the right one.
My sister in law's father was also called Richard Davies and he was born in Llanberis which is in the middle of the mountain ranges here in N Wales and would be about the same age group as your relative.
I phoned his wife yesterday but he wasn't one of your relations unfortunately.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on October 13, 2015, 09:54:44 AM
What a shame! Imagine the wealth of information I could obtain if your sister in law's father was my "Richard Davies" ;o)

I have been waiting with baited breath for a response from the GRO regarding my Uncle's birth certificate, but also awaiting a bundle of goods from China relating to Micro Quadcopters (which I have decided to get into).  I had some temporary excitement when my mail contained a bulky item addressed to me. My excitement was short lived however when I realised the item was in fact a "Bowl Cancer Screening Kit" issued by the Australian Government - at least it was free!

An apparently exciting rugby game Aus vs Wales resulted in setting up an Aus vs Scotland game. Many conflicts of interest on my part.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 13, 2015, 06:30:00 PM
As a matter of interest Hugh what town did Richard Davies live in?       

At least you'll be a winner with the Rugby whichever side wins.     $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on October 14, 2015, 09:30:06 AM
I am still awaiting arrival of the Birth Certificate from GRO. I used Family Search, North Wales BMD, and Free BMD to identify all possible births of a Richard Davies in Caernarvonshire in 1907. I discovered a total of six possible matches. I approached Glenys Davies at the Conway Registration Office and she was kind enough to check a number of the possibilities, none of which matched with the birth date, or the mother and father's names. Glenys steered me to the Gwynedd Registry Office for the one possibility remaining, and after substantial delays and many follow-up emails, I was informed that yes, they had a match, but would not recognise my MasterCard as payment for a copy of the certificate. I subsequently gave up on them and have ordered the certificate through GRO.

The Aus v Wales match was one challenge, but now there is the Aus vs Scotland (where I was born) match.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 14, 2015, 03:54:58 PM
When you get the certificate and if it is your Uncle,would you post the details on here.    I was talking to someone in the Archives this week and they told me that parts  of the Register of electors are being earmarked for coming on line.
Now that would be great for you and you could solve the mystery of  Penygroes but don't forget that the women wouldn't appear on the Registry until after 1932.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on October 23, 2015, 05:22:31 AM
AT LAST! 

The Birth Certificate has just arrived and is the correct one. 

When and Where Born:
28th July 1907, Penpelyn Llanllyfini

Informant:
Jane Jones, Grandmother (Present at birth)
Penpelyn Llanllyfini

Sub District: Llandwrog in the County of Carnarvon

So I now know that Catherine Jones' father is Richard Jones (from marriage certificate) and her mother was Jane Jones.

Time to give Findmypast another workout!
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 23, 2015, 11:41:22 AM
Well done Hugh,  Llanllyfni is a small village on the Llyn Peninsular and in the heart of the slate industry and near the mountains.  Have a look at this web site which might help in your search
It mentions  " Pen Pelyn. In a house nearby dwelt 'Martha of Llanllyfni Mountain'"      Llanllyfni is also very near Penygroes where you already have an address where your relative lived.



http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjACahUKEwiIqcv-sdjIAhXCPxoKHWpXD1A&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nantlle.com%2Fhistory-nebo-nasareth-circular-walks.htm&usg=AFQjCNE9FQ1JxOcQaiy2fwdw47CQkk9N-Q (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDEQFjACahUKEwiIqcv-sdjIAhXCPxoKHWpXD1A&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nantlle.com%2Fhistory-nebo-nasareth-circular-walks.htm&usg=AFQjCNE9FQ1JxOcQaiy2fwdw47CQkk9N-Q)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on October 31, 2015, 11:20:00 AM
Hugh,  a few years ago I was helping someone to find an address in Llandudno, they were looking for a relative that lived in Min Y Don Cottages but no one seemed to know where they were.  My Nain and Taid lived in Penmorfa Cottages but I remembered my Nain saying about when they Lived at Min Y Don so I had a look at the 1906 Llandudno Rates Book and found them there and had a photo copy made of the entry.
Anyway, I've just had a clear out and found the copy again and had a look at it.    You can see also an entry for W Davies at Vron Cottage, well that's your Grandfather who lived there.  Don't be put off by the spelling, there is no letter V in our Welsh alphabet and Fron has been spelt a number of ways and for different reasons.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 02, 2015, 10:43:09 AM
Hugo,

What a great find (for me at least)! I am still trying to isolate my grandmother's lineage, but I'm having to fit things in between grandchild sitting, church air conditioning, quadcopter flying practice, and trying to identify who Australia still has a relationship with after the rugby results.

Of interest was an episode of "How Britain Worked" I saw here recently with Guy Martin, and set in Llandudno.  The narration was interesting but unfortunately Guy's utterances did not come with sub-titles, so I am unsure of what he actually said/contributed. I'm also unclear what year this happened. Very interesting none the less.

Will update you on my grandmother's lineage shortly.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 02, 2015, 12:59:32 PM
Thanks Hugh, I've patched up the other parts of the 1906 Rates Book so you can see it.     It just gives you an idea how times have changed over the years.
The rates for 2  Vron Cottages was  14 shillings and 6 and a half pence.     In modern day money this would be about 73 PENCE and I think that that is PER ANNUM.
William's house was half an old penny more than his adjoining neighbour William Jones paid.  Perhaps your Grandfather's house was slightly bigger?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 09, 2015, 03:59:00 AM
Thank you Hugo.

I have been away on a short break and arrived home yesterday.  I checked my emails today and found one with the title "Penygroes Connection" which turned out to be from Gina who is married to the son of my father's sister and talked about some of the various family members.  It took ages for the tears to stop flowing and my hands were still shaking when I sent her a response leading to me accidently clicking the Send button after typing half a dozen word on my first attempt.

I never ever thought I would be able to track down any living members of my father's family, and it has been because of Three Towns Forum and this thread that the connection with Gina has come about.  THANKYOU, THANKYOU, THANKYOU!!!!

Some of the earlier mysteries have already been solved. You may recall that dad had a sister Jinw which is not a name I could find anywhere.  It turns out her real name was Jane Davies (named, I assume after her mother's mother Jane Jones).  I also know where his mother passed away and hope to find out the date she died and where she is buried.  I also hope to solve the where and when of his father's death.  Most of all, I hope to learn more about by father's life as a youngster and his life prior to marriage.  And wouldn't it be great if I could get some old family photos (I have none of my father prior to his marriage to mum, and only one phot of his mother.)

My Christmas present has certainly come early. Once again, thanks to all who have helped to make this link possible, and Hugo in particular.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: hollins on November 09, 2015, 09:37:05 AM
What a heart warming story, so pleased for you.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2015, 12:09:11 PM
That's fantastic news Hugh, I'm so pleased for you and you've now got the breakthrough that you've wanted.  I hope that you can get the answers to your questions and some photos of the family too.
It will be interesting to know what happened to William and Catherine after they left Llandudno.  We know that they were in Llandudno in 1911 and  World War I  was  only 3 years away.   William was of that age group that could have been conscripted into that war, so lots of info for you to find out.
It's been so hard for you being so far away but your efforts have been worth it and paid off.   Good luck and best wishes with everything for the future and it would be really interesting for us here on the forum to know how you get on.
I had a walk in the Dorothea Quarry in recent years and it is very near Penygroes, I wonder if it was that quarry where your father worked at?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 09, 2015, 10:17:39 PM
Many thanks Hollins!

I'm having to calm myself so I don't overwhelm Gina (who sent me the contact) with questions and requests.  I received another response from her and coincidentally, found out that her brother lives here in Brisbane. But yes, it has very much been a heart warming journey for me.

Kind regards.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2015, 10:30:16 PM
Brisbane looks like a very nice place to live, my cousin has lived there for a very long time
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 09, 2015, 10:35:27 PM
Hi Hugo,

If you don't mind, I would like to keep posting information on the forum as I find out more about William and Catherine's lives. 

Gina said that most of my cousins know very little of their family history and had all assumed their forbearers must have lived around Penygroes.  Apparently Gina (who has an interest in genealogy), decided to start tracing her husband Clifford's (my cousin) ancestors and did a search using "Davies family Penygroes". Lo and behold, she stumbled across this forum, and was amazed at how much information has been unearthed about the Davies history.

The information contained in her initial email left me in absolutely no doubt that this was my missing Welsh family. One very sad event was that a large number of old photographs etc., were accidently thrown in the skip bin when Clifford moved from his mother's house after she had passed on.

Having lived in Brisbane most of my life (60 years) I can say with certainty that outside of the occasional floods, sever tropical thunderstorms, and extreme heat and humidity during the summer,  that it is a great place to live ;0)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 12, 2015, 06:08:36 PM
Looking forward very much to hear what updates you've got from Gina.     $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 19, 2015, 06:41:35 PM
I've noticed that you've been dropping into the forum recently and wondered if you have  got any news Hugh.     It would be fascinating to know where William and Catherine moved to.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 21, 2015, 01:49:19 PM
Hi Hugo,

I have been busy putting together a three part history for Gina of what I have found in relation to the family. Part 1 was finding the connection of my father to his father's birth (William Davies), and the validated connection to William's grandfather Edward Davies. Part 2 was the history going forward from my father's birth. Part 3 was going backwards from Edward Davies. This took some effort to put together and resulted in a .pdf file greater than 5Mb. I have only just completed this file prior to this reply.

One of the problems of putting Part 3 together was that I kept finding avenues of exploration that I had not considered beforehand.  I have managed to trace back the maternal arms of my ancestors to Edward Davies (b.~ 1726) marrying an Ellin Jones (b.~ 1730).

Some of the information I have received from Gina is that my father's sister "Jinw" is in reality Jane Davies. We also sorted out the nicknames vs the actual given names of dad and his siblings - eg., Hugh known as "Taffy", Jane known as "Jinw", Edward known as "Teddy", and Richard known as "Bonzo", and a collective memory of another brother called Humphrey.  I did some investigating and found that a Humphrey was born in 1916 and Jane in 1920, both in Llandwrog.

There are a number of arms of the family scattered around and I hope to maybe harness there photos/memories/experiences as time goes on.

Regards Hugh

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on November 21, 2015, 11:07:01 PM
Some other information that has come to light is:

Catherin Jones' (wife of William Davies) parents were -
Richard Jones      1855   b Aberdaron, Caernarvonshire
Jane ?         1853   b LLaniestyn, Caernarvonshire

I think Jane's maiden name was Davies but I still have to confirm that. Richard and Jane settled in the Llanllyfni area and their children were -

Mgt (Margaret) Jones   Dau   1875   Caernarvonshire
Hugh Jones      Son   1878   Llanllyfni. Caernarvonshire
Humphr(ey) Jones   Son   1881   Llanllyfni. Caernarvonshire
Anne Jones      Dau   1883   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire
Catherine Jones      Dau   1885   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire
Elizabeth Jones      Dau   1887   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire
Griffith Jones      Son   1889   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire
Thomas Jones      Son   1892   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire
Mary Jones              Dau   1894   Llanllyfni, Caernarvonshire

It would seem that the family moved to Llandwrog from Llandudno and were there at least from 1916 to 1920. Apparently William was still alive when the family moved to Penygroes.  Catherine passed away in her daughter Jane's house. William and Catherine are buried together at Machpelah cemetery Penygroes and all that marks the grave is a cross with W.D on it. 

Gina also remembered that Teddy (Edward) Davies was a boxer, and apparently quite a good one.

I am hopeful that Gina will be able to talk to the extended family and pass on some additional information.

One intriguing thought I had was that of the boot/shoemaker shops listed in Llandudno, one was owned by a William Jones. The Rates Book image you kindly posted shows that the other family living at Vron Cottage was a William Jones.  I wondered whether there was a connection between William Jones and Catherine Jones? Was this how they met?  Another thread to explore.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on November 23, 2015, 03:43:49 PM
I see that Catherine's parents come from the Llyn Peninsula in North Wales.   Aberdaron is a pretty little village, right at the end of the peninsular and was the last place on the mainland before pilgrims made their trip over the sea to Bardsey Island.
It's nice that you've been able to discover where William and Catherine are buried and Gina may be able to provide you with dates and photos too.
Did you find out the name of the quarry where your father worked?

This little cafe in the photo is called Cegin Fawr and is in Aberdaron and reputedly 700 years old. What is certain is that the Cegin Fawr (Welsh: Big Kitchen) once supplied sustenance to pilgrims en route to the holy island of Bardsey
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 04, 2016, 12:24:18 PM
Happy New Year to you Hugh and I hope that 2016 will bring you more news of your Welsh family.   Did you ever find out which quarry your father worked in?
In one of the links I posted there was a photo of the school children at Penygroes school in 1922.    You father should have still been in school then and may have been in that photo.  If he was would you have recognised him?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 05, 2016, 11:12:07 PM
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I've noticed that you've been dropping into the forum recently and wondered if you have  got any news Hugh.     It would be fascinating to know where William and Catherine moved to.

Hi Hugo, and Happy New Year to you and yours.

Just keeping up with the "happenings" on the Forum.  The flow of information coming from Gina has been a bit restricted due to her only having time on Sundays to work on the family history, and of course the lead up and aftermath of the Christmas/New Year seasons. I am thinking of putting together a 'Questionnaire' that Gina could hopefully on forward to family members and either respond directly to me of through Gina.

On a technical note, is there any way I can download this thread in its entirety?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2016, 03:29:27 PM
On a technical note, is there any way I can download this thread in its entirety?

I've no idea Hugh as I'm not very good with IT but you may get an answer from the Admins or someone else.

That's a good idea about the questionnaire as each family member may have a bit to add to it that the others are unaware of.    With such a strong link to the Conwy Valley area it seems strange that they moved to Llanwnda but World War I was imminent and that may have prompted the move.  I wonder if William was conscripted into the Army ( Royal Welch Fusiliers being the most obvious branch) as he was of the age that he could have served in it.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 26, 2016, 09:39:47 AM
Hi All,

We had an opportunity recently to 'escape' to Toowoomba, a lovely regional city some 90 minutes from where we live (Brisbane). During a stroll through their main public park, we were approached by a middle aged man and a much younger girl.  This was the result, our 15 seconds of fame! http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/queens-park-impressing-with-summer-blooms/2907261/ (http://www.thechronicle.com.au/news/queens-park-impressing-with-summer-blooms/2907261/)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on January 26, 2016, 11:48:51 AM
We'll all be asking for your autograph now Hugh.    ;D     The park does look well kept and beautiful with all those flowers there and getting interviewed on the media was a bonus too.
You've got a good Ozzie accent there, no trace at all of any Scottish accent but you have been in Oz  a long time.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on January 28, 2016, 10:42:28 AM
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We'll all be asking for your autograph now Hugh.    ;D     The park does look well kept and beautiful with all those flowers there and getting interviewed on the media was a bonus too.
You've got a good Ozzie accent there, no trace at all of any Scottish accent but you have been in Oz  a long time.

The funny thing was that as we were strolling through the garden, I saw a middle aged man taking photos of a young woman in her twenties (who is seen early in the video) which struck me as a bit strange. When we got close to them, the man approached us and showing the back of the camera towards us he said "Uh., I was just wondering if you could..". I immediately put two and two together and came up with nine responding with "Ah, would you like me to take a photo for you?", only to be told no, and after explaining they were from the local newspaper, asked us whether we would be willing to model for him. After being assured we could remain clothes at all times (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/wink.gif (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/wink.gif)) we agreed. It was an interesting experience where posing for 'still' photos led to some short 'video' shots which then culminated in a request for a video interview. 

It was a bit hard to portray the enthusiastic love of the gardens which they were obviously after, but I'm sure we will be nominated for a local 'Oscar' type award http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/laugh.gif (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/laugh.gif)
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2016, 03:52:50 PM
Hi Hugh, hope that everything is going well with your new found family members in North Wales.     Yesterday my friend and I had a walk in Criccieth and coming home we had to pass through the village of Penygroes.     You may already have had photos from the family here but just in case you haven’t already I’ve taken some for you.      Tre Ddafydd is part of the main street in the village and the first photo is of Tre Ddafydd and No 2 is the second cottage on the left (see photo 2)
We then left the main street and drove uphill to Machpelah Cemetery to see if we could find the grave of William and Catherine Davies your Grandparents.    Machpelah Cemetery is a very large and well maintained Cemetery so we parked our car by the first big iron gates and we had an amazing bit of luck.    My friend Pete went through the gates and as I was getting my camera out of the car, he shouted to me “I’ve found it” and he had.    There are literally hundreds of graves there but Pete saw it within one minute.      Looking through the gates it is in the second row on the left of the path and about 4 or 5 graves from the gate.
The slate cross is very small,  less than 12 inches tall.  The initials W D have been carved into the slate and it looks like someone has painted the letters in a white paint to highlight the initials.   There also appears to be the shape of a heart above the initials that has been scratched on to the slate cross    The grave is covered in decorative stone chippings and some pebbles have been laid near the cross.
The panoramic view from the Cemetery is stunning and the mountains can be seen clearly in most directions.    In the days when your father and Richard were children these are the views that they would have seen and they would have been seen from the front door of 2 Tre Ddafydd too.
The photos show one of the many slate quarries in the area and your father Hugh could have worked in any of them as there were quite a few slate quarries in that area.
You have mentioned Pen Pelah as a place where members of the Davies family have lived and I’ve no idea where that is but as “Pen” means head or top in English then I suspect that the property is somewhere above the Cemetery
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2016, 03:57:54 PM
Machpelah Cemetery Penygroes
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 27, 2016, 05:39:14 AM
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Hi Hugh, hope that everything is going well with your new found family members in North Wales.     Yesterday my friend and I had a walk in Criccieth and coming home we had to pass through the village of Penygroes.     You may already have had photos from the family here but just in case you haven’t already I’ve taken some for you.   

Many thanks once again Hugo.  My brother and I and our respective better half's did visit Penygroes very briefly in 2002 when we attended our son's wedding in London.  We did find 2 Tredaffyd St and in fact, I walked up the lane adjacent to No 1 and into what appeared to be a mechanics shop and got their permission to take some photos of the back of No2. 

Your greatest find indeed was my grandfather's headstone.  Unfortunately, I have not been in contact with the new found family member due to an extremely busy time looking after grandchildren 5 days a week.  With the CFS, I am exhausted at the end of each day.  I am looking at the possibility of putting up a website that the new found relatives can interact with, but still in the early stages. Once again I am so grateful for all you are doing and have done for me and many others on the forum
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 27, 2016, 11:28:22 AM
You are very welcome Hugh, it was my pleasure.   With the luck we had it didn't take long and it was nice to see the location of the Cemetery and the wonderful views of the mountains.
I'm surprised that you can manage looking after the Grandchildren with the CFS as I have seen how debilitating it can be for my wife who has the same condition.
Hope that you are able to pace yourself and just take one day at a time.      Once you get your website going and get the info from your N Wales family you'll be able to tell the Grandchildren all about your Welsh family
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 28, 2016, 07:03:34 AM
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You are very welcome Hugh, it was my pleasure.   With the luck we had it didn't take long and it was nice to see the location of the Cemetery and the wonderful views of the mountains.
I'm surprised that you can manage looking after the Grandchildren with the CFS as I have seen how debilitating it can be for my wife who has the same condition.
Hope that you are able to pace yourself and just take one day at a time.      Once you get your website going and get the info from your N Wales family you'll be able to tell the Grandchildren all about your Welsh family

Thank you Hugo. Fortunately my wife carries out the vast bulk of the heavy lifting.  I just rest in the lounge chair telling 'Pop Jokes' and enjoying the collective groans in response (or complete indifference depending on the age of the grandchild/grandchildren and my wife's mood http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/cheesy.gif (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/cheesy.gif) ).

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on July 11, 2016, 06:00:17 PM
Hi Hugh,    I was wondering how you were doing with your research on your N Wales family and if you had found out anything new about your Grandfather, in particular, if he was conscripted into the Army in World War 1
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on July 12, 2016, 11:13:05 AM
Hi Hugo,

Unfortunately, I have only been able to obtain a very limited amount of information.  I have started to build a page on FamilySearch to perhaps encourage other Welsh family members to swap family information, but looking after grandchildren and my constant tiredness have made this a slow process.

I still plan to research more of my grandfather's mother's family, and hopefully my grandmother's history as time and energy permit.  I do enjoy this Forum and spend a bit of time looking at the various posts. 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 16, 2017, 05:04:53 AM
I think I mentioned in one of my posts that out of desperation to make contact with my Welsh family members, I did a search on White Pages for a Gwyndaf Davies living in Pwllheli. Gwyndaf was my cousin (dad's brother's son) and worked on a merchant ship which would dock in Brisbane from time to time.

My search found a possible match so I drafted a letter explaining who I was, who I hoped this Gwyndaf was, and my contact details if he was my actual relative.  I posted the letter in December 2014. But alas, no response was forthcoming...until a few nights ago when I received an email from a Carys mentioning the 2014 letter asking me if my email address was still valid. I confirmed that my address was still valid and received a follow up email explaining that my cousin Gwyndaf passed away 32 years ago but the Gwyndaf who received the letter eventually tracked down Carys who was in fact my cousin Gwyndaf's younger sister (and also my cousin). We are currently bringing each other up to speed with our respective families/lives. And I will then share the information I have garnered so far. I am hopeful that between us we can perhaps make more discoveries.

Will post an update in due course.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 16, 2017, 01:11:08 PM
Hi Hugh,   that's fantastic news and I'm so pleased for you having a response like that.        $good$
Thanks for posting it on the forum so we can see how your search is progressing.
Have you had any more updates from the Penygroes side of the family?    I know that the Chronic Fatigue was holding you back with your searches when you last posted but I hope that the CF is under control as I know how debilitating it can be.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on June 16, 2017, 11:00:42 AM
Thus far, I have made connection with two of my cousins in Wales which  has been extremely exciting. I have now had communications with a distant cousin, who is a descendant of my great grandmother's sister Margaret Davies.

Again, I am very grateful to this site which has provided a means to connect individuals to potential, previously unknown family members. For those who feel unconnected to distant family members, making these connections are priceless.

Regards, Hugh
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on June 16, 2017, 11:55:13 AM
That's great news Hugh and I'm so pleased for you as I know how much your search has meant to you.    I hope that your Davies connection continues to grow and that you keep us up to date on the forum
Hope that your CF isn't too bad at present as you have a lot to catch up on this your Welsh family          $walesflag$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Gwyrfai on June 28, 2017, 02:50:03 PM
Hello
Over the past month I've been tracing the family history of a friend of mine, David Davies, (known as Dafydd) originally from Clynnog, about 10 miles from Caernarfon.
I had managed to trace his paternal grandfather’s family line back to Hugh and Margaret Davies, Tyddyn Iolyn, Eglwysbach. When I googled “Tyddyn Iolyn, Eglwysbach” to get a few details about the place, I came across your messages on the Three Towns Forum.     
Dafydd’s father, William Lloyd Davies, was your father’s brother. As you are aware, William, his brother Humphrey and sister Jane were not born at the time of the 1911 census.
I have obtained some details about Dafydd’s grandmother's side of the family, (Catherine Davies, nee Jones) and managed to go back a number of generations. If you want to email me I can forward some details on to you along with Dafydd’s contact details.
Robert
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on June 28, 2017, 04:13:18 PM
I've noticed that Hugh has visited the forum very recently so he'll see your posting and get in touch.

Tyddyn Iolyn is set up high above Eglwysbach and is no longer accessible  from the road.   When I went there to take some photos for Hugh I got permission from the landowner first of all.    There are a number of buildings there but they were dilapidated when I saw them, although the farmer I spoke to said that someone was going to do them up.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Gwyrfai on June 28, 2017, 07:47:28 PM
Thanks Hugo, I'd read a few of the posts already. Hugh's grandmother's ancestors were also farmers on the Llyn peninsula.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on July 04, 2017, 11:05:06 AM
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Thanks Hugo, I'd read a few of the posts already. Hugh's grandmother's ancestors were also farmers on the Llyn peninsula.

Hi Gwyrfai/Robert

Wow!  What a revelation.  I have been stuck on my Grandmothers (Catherine Jones) family connections after having considerable success with my Grandfather's (William Davies) history.  I must admit that it wasn't until a recent and unexpected email from one of my cousins that I knew that dad had a brother called William.

I would welcome any and all information you have in relation to my grandfather or grandmother's history.  My email address is hugh.daviessolutions@gmail.com and look forward to any information you can provide.  Equally, I am more than happy to provide what information I have.

Regards, Hugh
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on July 17, 2017, 09:58:44 AM
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Thanks Hugo, I'd read a few of the posts already. Hugh's grandmother's ancestors were also farmers on the Llyn peninsula.

Hi Gwyrfai/Robert

Wow!  What a revelation.  I have been stuck on my Grandmothers (Catherine Jones) family connections after having considerable success with my Grandfather's (William Davies) history.  I must admit that it wasn't until a recent and unexpected email from one of my cousins that I knew that dad had a brother called William.

Regards, Hugh

Another Piece in the Puzzle!

Chalk up another huge benefit of this website. I started my family history journey with a few scraps of information seeking help on this forum. As a result I solved a very complex journey to find my Grandfather's history thanks to many inputs from other members (particularly Hugo).

Due to other Welsh family members conducting searches on-line, they have discovered this thread and as a result I have made contact with those family members. The latest puzzle was an email from my Cousin who mentioned a William Lloyd Davies who was my father's brother.  I responded that I had never heard any mention of a William Lloyd as a brother of dad. The latest discoverer of this thread was a Robert Williams tracing the family history for a David (Dafydd) Davies, who is the son of William Lloyd Davies who turned out to be my father's brother referred to in many stories as 'Bonzo'. Prior to this I thought 'Bonzo' was a nickname of one of his other known brothers.

The importance of the contact by Robert Williams is that I now have a detailed history of my grandmother's (Catherine Jones) family history which I am still trying to digest.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on July 17, 2017, 10:33:03 AM
Very recently I had a conversation with friends of ours where I mentioned that despite a number of setbacks due to brick walls such as illegitimate births etc., I had continued to trace the maternal relatives and other extended family members.  I was then told that the wife of our friend had traced her direct family with a view to capturing as much of the family lore as she could.

I was then asked if I was similarly seeking family lore or just exploring family links for the sake collecting relatives names.  This comment did give me pause to think about my approach to tracing my family heritage. I soon realised that the difference was that those I was talking with had had there extended family as part of their on-going lives. For me, my extended family was permanently removed from me when we left the UK for Australia in 1950.  So any connection I can make with my father's past is another point of interest which in other family units would be folk lore.

May the journey continue.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on August 14, 2017, 04:58:19 PM
I'm afraid that I can't help you at all with the family lore Hugh but you must have many relatives of the Davies family in the Conwy County area.  I've a feeling that there may be relatives on the forum too.
Let's hope that they can come forward and give you some more info
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 10, 2017, 06:39:51 AM
Hi  Hugo (and others)

I have decided to take your advice and continue my research of my great-grandmother's family (i.e. the children of Edward and Margaret Davies). I decided to start with their eldest child Jane Davies b1840. On 6 December 1867, Jane married a Llewelyn Parry, Stone Mason living in Glan y Mor Terrace Llandudno. I tried to find them in the 1871 Census but could only find Llewelyn living with his parents at Ty Gwyn, Llandudno. However, in the 1881 Census I found a Llewelyn and Jane Parry living Brynmaenen, Llandudno with their son John b1875. The 1891 and 1901 show all three living in Madoc Street, Llandudno. Llewelyn died in 1906.

Something jogged my memory and I checked the 1871 Census for Edward and Margaret, and there was an Anne Parry(2) - Granddaughter living there at that time but is not listed with Llewelyn and Jane in the 1881 Census. I thought that she may have died very young but could not find any conclusive record for her death.  It was also odd about Llewelyn living with family in the 1871 Census and although it listed a Jane Parry b 1842, she was listed as "daughter". I wondered whether the transcript I was referring to was somehow incorrect so looked at the original image which confirmed Jane was recorded as "daughter". However, whist the transcript did not show Marital Status for any individual the image did and showed Llewelyn to be a "Widower". I did a search for a death record for a Jane Parry and found that she died in 1969 and buried on 2 January.

So who was the Jane Parry listed in the 1881 and subsequent Census records? I found a marriage record for a Llewelyn Parry marrying a Jane Foulkes in 1875. Mystery solve. But what happened to Jane's daughter Anne. I found her (listed as Annie) living with Llewelyn, parents at Ty Gwyn, North Parade Llandudno in the 1881 Census remaining there up to the 1911 Census where she was living with Llewelyn's sister. Both remained unmarried and were listed in 1911 having an occupation of "Private Means"

I had a look at the 1939 records and found some "Parry" members living at number 8 North Parade and would be interested if you could confirm that this is the Ty Gwyn referred to in the Census records. I have also done a search for any record of Annie's death. I found the following image on Billion Graves site:

http://billiongraves.com/pages/record/Annie-Parry/289695
 (http://billiongraves.com/pages/record/Annie-Parry/289695)

The image shows Annie died 16 August 1933 and is buried with her Aunty Jane Parry who died in 1918. They are buried in Saint Tudno Church Cemetery Llandudno.  As Annie Parry in the only "Davies" offspring of Jane Davies and that Annie never married, there is no more to be explored for Jane's family.

On to Anne Davies b1842
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 10, 2017, 06:47:37 PM
Well you have been busy Hugh and added a few more pieces to the jigsaw of the Davies family.   

North Parade is a street made up of Hotels and boarding houses and is in a lovely location on the promenade and just opposite the pier.  I did some research for the Williams Family in Llandudno and one of their relatives lived at the rear of No 8 North Parade.
No 8 is the cream coloured building on the right and is now part of the Baytree Hotel.     When I was a teenager I would have known the names of all the hotels but they have changed names etc over the years but I believe that No 8 North Parade and Ty Gwyn North Parade are the same building.    If I'm wrong then I hope someone can correct me but I can check it out in the Conwy Archives when I go there next.

The grave of Annie is in the newer part of the Cemetery and is council owned.   I took the photo when I had a walk on the Great Orme earlier this year  and stopped for lunch  over looking the Cemetery.    If you look at the big building in the foreground the grave is roughly to the right and forward of the building towards the fence.
The old Church of St Tudno is behind it in the far corner and the earlier graves are contained within the walls of the Church Cemetery.

Good luck with the next instalment od Anne Davies      $good$
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on September 10, 2017, 07:38:33 PM
8 North Parade was Brixton House so possibly not the same family.

In 1864, there was a Thomas Parry recorded at Ty Gwyn, North Parade. I think this Ty Gwyn became Plas Marina at some stage. It was certainly the next property to Merville which is still so named.

Its as Hugo says, these properties are hotels and guest houses in a prime location.  Ty Gwyn even had a an MP staying there in October 1864!

Interestingly, as far as Glan y Mor Terrace is concerned, again in 1864, a Mr T Parry was at No 1 and the Misses Parry at No 2.  (Hugo - these are the first two properties looking from the Trevor Street end and now form part of the Esplanade Hotel).

Also of possible interest, a Thomas Parry was chairman of the Llandudno Improvement Commissioners for the years 1869-1872 - could he be Thomas at Ty Gwyn ?



Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 10, 2017, 11:14:59 PM
Thanks Cambrian for pointing those things out.   I've just had a look at Google street view and I can see the Merville property,   I remember my old dentist Mr Crawford working and I think living there.
So Ty Gwyn was next to that place, quite appropriate name really as the Ty Gwyn Copper Mine was in that area. 

Was Ty Gwyn the Belmont Hotel or the Belle View House?    I was wondering where Glan Y Mor Terrace was so thanks for pointing that out.
Do you happen to know where  Bryn Maenan in Llandudno was as I've not heard of that before either?
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on September 11, 2017, 04:37:42 AM
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8 North Parade was Brixton House so possibly not the same family.

In 1864, there was a Thomas Parry recorded at Ty Gwyn, North Parade. I think this Ty Gwyn became Plas Marina at some stage. It was certainly the next property to Merville which is still so named.

Its as Hugo says, these properties are hotels and guest houses in a prime location.  Ty Gwyn even had a an MP staying there in October 1864!

Interestingly, as far as Glan y Mor Terrace is concerned, again in 1864, a Mr T Parry was at No 1 and the Misses Parry at No 2.  (Hugo - these are the first two properties looking from the Trevor Street end and now form part of the Esplanade Hotel).

Also of possible interest, a Thomas Parry was chairman of the Llandudno Improvement Commissioners for the years 1869-1872 - could he be Thomas at Ty Gwyn ?

In the 1861 Census, Thomas Parry (father of Llewelyn) has his Occupation recorded as Builder and House Proprietor Employing 14 Men. At that stage he is living at Tygwyn House, Tygwyn Newydd, Llandudno. In the 1871 Census Thomas is recorded as Land & Houses Owner. So I think the Thomas Parry who was chairman is in all likelihood Llewelyns father.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 11, 2017, 08:36:38 AM
Cambrian,  I can see that Ty Gwyn  North Parade is now called  Belle View House but it would be interesting to know where Bryn Maenen was.

DownUnder,  Thomas Parry must have been well off in those days as the property is quite impressive.    I would imagine that in 1861 his address of Ty Gwyn  Ty Gwyn Newydd was to distinguish it from the farm that was in that area and also called Ty Gwyn.
In English Ty Gwyn Newydd means New White House
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Cambrian on September 11, 2017, 02:01:54 PM
Hugo - yes I agree re Belle View House.  Bryn Maenan is a bit tricky.  There was a Bryn Maenan in Cwlach Street but the name seems to have become corrupted to Bryn Maenu for some reason.  Possibly a printer's error somewhere along the way and it stuck.  The house is number 6 and you can see what I mean in the street directories in the archives. The Census for 1881 would also give a clue if the property is indeed in Cwlach Street or  adjacent to some other property we know the name of.
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 11, 2017, 07:29:07 PM
Cambrian, thanks very much for posting that info about Bryn Maenen in Cwlach Street.  The name isn't familiar to me although the street is as I had relatives living there in the 1861 Census.

Because of your posting I've just had a look at Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"  and there were some interesting things and coincidences about Thomas Parry and DownUnder.       Some time ago I was looking for a property No 2 Fron Cottages in Cwlach Street and had some difficulty finding it.
DownUnder's  Grandfather William Davies once lived there so that's why I was looking for it.

I eventually found it and the cottages have been converted now into one dwelling and this is the interesting bit, they belonged to Mr Thomas Parry ( the Mason)    At the end of the cottages standing by itself on a nice piece of land stood Valley View, the residence of Tom Parry.    This can be found on pg 170 of the book together with a little story about Tom

At page 168 is another reference to Thomas Parry of Valley View who built Frondeg in 1833 and it was one of the most important houses in the village as it was the residence of Thomas Jones the Agent for the New Mine.

DownUnder, perhaps you can help here and have a look at the Census records and give two or three addresses in the Census either side of Bryn Maenen and perhaps with our local knowledge might be able to trace this place
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2017, 08:32:54 AM
I've checked the notes I made when I was looking at the 1910 Rates Book for Llandudno and Bryn Maenan is in Cwlach Street.   The house next to it is Valley View so Thomas Parry must have lived in both houses at some time.

The 1910 Rates Book had DownUnder's Grandfather  William Davies as the occupier of 2 Fron Cottages,   Albert Wright as the occupier of Bryn Maenan and John William Osborne as the occupier of Valley View
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 14, 2018, 05:05:09 PM
Hi Hugh,  hope that you are having better weather than we are here.    Snow, rain and wind a lot of the time here, so roll on Summer.

Conwy Archives have an online catalogue and I was looking through it and came across an article relating to Marl Bach where your ancestors once lived.    The strange thing about it is that another forum member who has made postings under the title "Pensarn Farm"  has an ancestor of the Davies family and she married into the Rogerson family but there was a rift between the Rogerson's and the Davies' for some unknown reason.    I wonder if this article may have had something to do with it?

Cyfernod / Ref No CPS1/2/3/48/35
Teitl / Title Defendant: Mary Ann Rogerson
Ddisgrifiad / Description Mary Ann Rogerson of M[arle]bach, near Conway.
Charged with Breaking and Entering the dwelling house of John Davies and stealing one pound in weight of mutton belonging to him.
Witness statements from John Davies of M[arle]bach, a working Gardener; Evan Roberts, a Police Constable at Tywyn; John Davies of Deganwy, a Labourer (Son of John Davies of M[arle]bach) and Mary Ann Rogerson.
Verdict: Dismissed.
Dyddiad / Date 26/5/1902
Graddau / Extent 12 
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 21, 2018, 05:21:45 AM
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Cambrian, thanks very much for posting that info about Bryn Maenen in Cwlach Street.  The name isn't familiar to me although the street is as I had relatives living there in the 1861 Census.

Because of your posting I've just had a look at Chris Draper's book "Llandudno before the hotels"  and there were some interesting things and coincidences about Thomas Parry and DownUnder.       Some time ago I was looking for a property No 2 Fron Cottages in Cwlach Street and had some difficulty finding it.
DownUnder's  Grandfather William Davies once lived there so that's why I was looking for it.

I eventually found it and the cottages have been converted now into one dwelling and this is the interesting bit, they belonged to Mr Thomas Parry ( the Mason)    At the end of the cottages standing by itself on a nice piece of land stood Valley View, the residence of Tom Parry.    This can be found on pg 170 of the book together with a little story about Tom

At page 168 is another reference to Thomas Parry of Valley View who built Frondeg in 1833 and it was one of the most important houses in the village as it was the residence of Thomas Jones the Agent for the New Mine.

DownUnder, perhaps you can help here and have a look at the Census records and give two or three addresses in the Census either side of Bryn Maenen and perhaps with our local knowledge might be able to trace this place

These latter messages were somehow missed by me (or perhaps forgotten about) so sorry for the late response.

The 1911 census lists the following:

3 Cwalch Street (Charles R Williams)
4 Brookes Cottages (Alfred Bryan)
Vron (Fron?) Cottage (William Jones)
Daisy Bank (John Hughes)
Valley View (John William Osbourne)
BRYN MAENAN (ALBERT EARNEST WRIGHT)
Rosa Cottage (Louis Magee)
Fern Bank (John Hughes)
8 Bodhyfryd Cottage (William Jones)
Bodhyfryd Cottage (Jane Roberts)
2 Cwlach Street (Mary Anne Thomas)

Hope this helps
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2018, 10:50:07 AM
Thanks Hugh for posting that info.   Some of the old names of the houses live on thank goodness and they helped me to trace where your Grandfather lived in the street
Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: DownUnder on February 24, 2018, 11:24:18 AM
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Hi Hugh,  hope that you are having better weather than we are here.    Snow, rain and wind a lot of the time here, so roll on Summer.

Conwy Archives have an online catalogue and I was looking through it and came across an article relating to Marl Bach where your ancestors once lived.    The strange thing about it is that another forum member who has made postings under the title "Pensarn Farm"  has an ancestor of the Davies family and she married into the Rogerson family but there was a rift between the Rogerson's and the Davies' for some unknown reason.    I wonder if this article may have had something to do with it?

Cyfernod / Ref No CPS1/2/3/48/35
Teitl / Title Defendant: Mary Ann Rogerson
Ddisgrifiad / Description Mary Ann Rogerson of M[arle]bach, near Conway.
Charged with Breaking and Entering the dwelling house of John Davies and stealing one pound in weight of mutton belonging to him.
Witness statements from John Davies of M[arle]bach, a working Gardener; Evan Roberts, a Police Constable at Tywyn; John Davies of Deganwy, a Labourer (Son of John Davies of M[arle]bach) and Mary Ann Rogerson.
Verdict: Dismissed.
Dyddiad / Date 26/5/1902
Graddau / Extent 12

Hugo,

I have yet to make a connection between the "John Davies" in the article and my family line. Having said that, I am even more driven to continue the search into the extended family. Our weather here has been variable - hot humid days with severe thunderstorms (and associated electrical blackouts), or cloudy cool days (very few of). Seems much easier to build up clothing layers to tackle the cold (no limits) than take layers off (legal constraints) to battle the heat.

Title: Re: Daviies Family
Post by: anneelaine on March 13, 2018, 09:05:58 PM
Hi;
Just been looking  at (Mary Ann and here baby)
 my Great Auntie Mary Ann Rogerson in 1902 lived on the same farm as John Davies
with her Mum Mary Rogerson
Mmmm and my grandfather age 23 her brother
 So all living on this farm