Three Towns Forum
The Local => Genealogy & Research => Topic started by: sgbright on February 27, 2013, 10:51:23 am
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I am descended from the Elias family who lived at Caerhun for a number of generations and before that at Plas Y Glyn. I am planning a trip to the area and would like to work out in advance what I might find of family interest. From a funeral notice I suspect Edward Elias may be buried at St Mary's. I cannot find any burial records online - if anyone knows a way to check that would be appreciated (died 1893). If anyone knows of this family which I suspect remained in the areas for many subsequent generations I would be interested to hear. Edward's father was William. If there are any locals who would like to try to work out where a property is from census records please be in touch also. Edward and his father William both managed the estates of Lord Newborough (that I have not researched yet). William Elias was stated in the death notice to be from "The Abbey LLaarwel" - if anyone knows this it would be appreciated also.
At risk of asking too much I also have a newspaper article on the marriage of Ernest William Bartleet and Sarah Isobel Elias my great great grandparents. It is however in Welsh which I cannot read (I live in Australia). If anyone would be interest in translating it for me that would also be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
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I don't know that area well or the Elias family but I do know the Church at Caerhun. St Mary's is built in the corner of an old Roman fort and at this time of the year the graves are covered in Snowdrops (see photo)
The Burial records can be found at the Conwy Archives in Lloyd Street Llandudno and they have a list and location of each grave that has a headstone. They are easy to check as they are also listed alphabetically.
e-mail archifau.archives@conwy.gov.uk website http://www.conwy.gov.uk/archives (http://www.conwy.gov.uk/archives)
As regards the death notice from " The Abbey LLaarwel" I have never heard of it and it is obviously spelt incorrectly as you don't get two "a's" together in our Welsh alphabet.
If you can post the newspaper article on the marriage of Ernest and Sarah on here then I'm sure that it can be translated for you
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It's only an afterthought but could LLarwel actually be LLanrwst which is across the river from the Lord Newborough estates?
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Another late afterthought, Maenan Abbey in Maenan near Llanrwst is or was owned by Lord Newborough. The Abbey was destroyed hundreds of years ago in the reign of Henry VIII and as far as I know burials were not made there in your relatives time but I may be wrong on that.
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http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.penmon.org%2Fpage33.htm&ei=1KAvUdgk49DRBdSOgaAG&usg=AFQjCNEQZbNOHbXjBzZf-oV_F8a4b8uEEw&sig2=FuTgj-0Ak2YLtV2Ed4HZtQ&bvm=bv.43148975,d.d2k (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.penmon.org%2Fpage33.htm&ei=1KAvUdgk49DRBdSOgaAG&usg=AFQjCNEQZbNOHbXjBzZf-oV_F8a4b8uEEw&sig2=FuTgj-0Ak2YLtV2Ed4HZtQ&bvm=bv.43148975,d.d2k)
Have a look at this website of families in the Conwy Valley but you have to scroll far down to see John Elias who owned a Heifer that had been stolen by someone.
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Thank you very much for all of that info. In actual fact last night I hit the jackpot. The Abbey you selected was correct. When I read the history link on the Maern Abbey it finished by saying the Elias family built that property and occupied the site for most of the 19th century. I will certainly be staying there when I visit. William and then Edward Elias were the land managers for Lord Newborough for many years and saw one reference that pointed out they were related to him. Very exciting.
Do you which would be the most likely burial location for folk residing in that area. I have also found that William Elias way back in the mid 1800s was keen on genealogy and that his papers reside in the council archives also! What a find!
I also attach the wedding article. If you could translate this would be much appreciated. It is quite long so I am guessing there might be some good information in there.
Thanks again, I sense this is going to be one of the best branches to work on yet. While my GG Grandmother emmigrated to New Zealand in what seems so long ago, my mother remembers her well and hence puts it all in perspective. Kind regards Stuart
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A follow on thought. Do you know that the Abbey was owned by Lord Newborough. The references I have seen suggested it was the Elias family although of course they may have been occupying it only as his manager of estates. Thanks once again.
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A follow on thought. Do you know that the Abbey was owned by Lord Newborough. The references I have seen suggested it was the Elias family although of course they may have been occupying it only as his manager of estates. Thanks once again.
I put into Google "Maenan Abbey Lord Newborough" and took the 1st option and Lord Newborough is still the present owner of the property. We often have meals at the Maenan Abbey and if you do go there I'm sure that you will enjoy your stay.
I had a walk in the mountains yesterday and stopped at St Mary's in Caerhun to look at the Snowdrops but didn't look for any graves there as I'm in Llandudno on Tuesday and it would be easier for me if I looked at the Burial Indexes there first of all.
I'm afraid that I couldn't open your link so I couldn't have a go at translating the article. Could you possibly scan it or something so that it can be posted like the photos are?
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Hi Thanks again. I need to research more on the Lord Newborough link. For some reason when I attach it only goes in as a link probably because there is too much text to go in as a pic. if you could perhaps email me I can send it to you directly.
thanks again - I separately emailed archives to see if I can find any grave reference.
kind regards
Stuart
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I'm unable to e-mail as I haven't got your e-mail address but don't post it on here though. I'll try and get round the problem at this end. Sometimes you can take photos of cuttings and post them as photos on here. Is that possible?
The people at the Archives are very helpful but I'll have a look anyway and see if I can find it.
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Thanks for trying. I will try a different formal also. regards Stuart
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Thanks for posting it like that, unfortunately my printer appears to be having a problem but as soon as I can I'll try and translate it but it might be a few days before I do.
If anyone who is fluent in Welsh wants to do it sooner then that would be appreciated. It's very detailed and is interesting to read and it sounds like a special event at the village and the service was conducted by Rev H E Cawley, the brother in law of the young husband.
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That would be much appreciated. I can see that it makes reference to London and New Zealand so I am guessing they got married and immediately emigrated. Such a fantastic fine. Even though it was so long ago my mother remembers Sarah Isobel (referred to as Isobel) who was her great grandmother. thanks again
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Hi
Would anyone be able to identify the location of the Elias residence from the attached census record?
Any assistance would be much appreciated.
Kind regards
Stuart
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Attached is an old photograph. Unfortunately other than some intelligent guessing we are not certain of the identity of the person or the servants. However it is likely to be a member of the Elias family or some connection therewith. If anyone has any observations about it - the dress, the type of bird, or anything else especially from a Welsh perspective that I might be missing it would be much appreciated.
regards Stuart
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here is the reverse of the pic ...
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The bird is a Herring Gull, scourge of all the coastal towns on the North Wales coast! They are supposed to eat fish that they catch themselves but prefer doughnuts, sausage rolls, ice creams and their particular favourite chips that they steal from unsuspecting tourists :laugh: :laugh:
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Thanks - guess it wasnt one of the "pets" referred to on the card then ... thank again
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Please try this link -if it fails, look up Roots web and you will find it by searching alphabetically. There is a lot of information on there about the entire Elias family. The name of the house was Gorswen.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=willperf&id=I054645&style=TABLE (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=PED&db=willperf&id=I054645&style=TABLE)
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Thanks for this - I had most of the data but not in that format. Thanks didnt realise Gorswen is the house name.
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Eryri Snowdonia National Park Authority I National Park Office
Penrhyiideudraeth
Gwynedd LL48 6LF
(01766)770274 Fax No (01766) 771211
cynllunio@eryri-npa.gov.uk
List dated 22-11-2010
New Planning Applications
Caerhun
Demolish existing agricultural building and construction of new agricultural building
Gorswen, Tyn-y-Groes, Conwy / Gorswen, Tyn-y--Groes, Conwy
Mr. R. Roberts, Gorswen, Rowen, Conwy, LL32 8TE
Cotrestwyd
Registered
17/11/2010
Application No,
NP4112/201
Community:
Proposal:
Location:
Applicant:
Type
Full
Grid Reference
275720 371163
Level of Decision
Delegated
If you use the post code on Google maps you will be able to see a picture of the current building which is grade 2 listed and therefore preserved as historic building. Also google Gorswen and you will find all sorts of useful information about the location.
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with Rootsweb you can actually find other people who are researching the same family to whom they are so related! You can also download a Gedcom file as long as you have a software package to accept it. By the way, the Maenan Abbey is an amazing place to stay and full of history. When there was a ban on Sunday drinking in our County many years ago, they were able to open becauseof their ancient links to Caernarvonshire and Lord Newborough as an Abbey, so were exempt. It was packed with customers on a Sunday!!
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Thanks.
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I66746&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I66746&tree=Welsh)
Now I know Gorswen was probably the name of a house rather than a place it looks like it was of substance over many centuries as you can see to the above which flows through to the Elias. I am definately coming. I have conflicting material on the webb whether Mearn Abbey would have been owned by the Elias family or whether it might have been part of the estates of Lord Newborough. Any thoughts on that?
I will study the above now. thanks again
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A quick potted history -surprisingly no mention of Lord Newborough who was a big landowner in the area (the local Newborough Arms pub was named after him (try googling that one!!). http://www.maenanabbey.co.uk/The-History.html (http://www.maenanabbey.co.uk/The-History.html)
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Yes I found that the other night. It implies that it was the Elias property. Not sure if you knew but both Edward Ellias and William Elias were his Estate Manager's one after the other. I saw a suggestion on a post that they were related. Guess that would make sense.
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http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2143853 (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2143853)
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This should sort out the William and Edward situation
http://histfam.familysearch.org/pedigree.php?personID=I183935&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/pedigree.php?personID=I183935&tree=Welsh)
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Husband: Ernest William Bartleet
Born: 1857 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Father:
Mother:
Other Spouses:
Wife: Isobel Elias
Born: 1863 at: UK
Died: at:
Father:
Mother:
Other Spouses:
CHILDREN
Name: Edgar Llewellyn Bartleet
Born: 14 NOV 1898 at: Waiuku, Sth AKL, NZ
Married: at:
Died: 18 NOV 1986 at: Auckland, NZ
Spouses: Ethel May Colson
Name: Ethel Isobel Bartleet
Born: 1884 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses: Percival Vivian Flexman
Name: Robert Edward Bartleet
Born: 1886 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses:
Name: Ernest Oswald Bartleet
Born: 1888 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses: Alberta Wheeler
Name: Harold Bartleet
Born: at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses: Ivy Miriam (Miriam) Partridge
Name: Richard Bernard Bartleet
Born: 1892 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses: Winifred Swinton
Name: Arthur William Bartleet
Born: 1894 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses:
Name: Annie Harriet Muriel Bartleet
Born: 1901 at:
Married: at:
Died: at:
Spouses:
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Thanks again Viv. I had seen that reference to the Elias family and the Abbey - separately though the Maern estates are referred to as having belonged to the Lord Newborough estates for centuries. As William and Edward were his Estate Managers until the death of the then lord in the 1880s it is possible they resided there.
Re the tree thanks again - I have most descendant info. For your interest I am descended from the Percival and Ethel included in that tree.
Can you read welsh by any chance - the wedding article above - would love to know what it contains.
thanks again
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Could anyone kindly assist me with a translation of the attached? any assistance would be much appreciated.
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sgbright, Just an update for you. The newspaper article was written in an old style of Welsh but I have been able to translate it for you and all I need to do is check it again and type it up and post it here. I'll do that later today or tomorrow.
Secondly, I was in the Archives again and can confirm that your relatives were buried in the St Mary's Cemetery in Caerhun. I then drove to Caerhun and took the photos of the graves. There are two graves next to each other and the first photo of the graves No A065 , the one with the chain link fencing has the following inscription although it is not clearly visible:-
Edward Elias
Sacred to the memory of Edward Elias Gorswen who departed this life January 2nd 1893 aged 70 years.
Also William Elias eldest son of the above born September 4th 1849 died September 5th 1894
Sacred to the memory of Sarah the beloved wife of Edward Elias Gorswen who died 25th July 1865 aged 43
Also Susannah Anne infant daughter of the above who died August 2nd 184- (number not shown)
The second grave No C075 has this inscription:-
In loving memory of Edward, youngest son of Edward Elias of Gorswen who died May 19th 1878 aged 21 years
Also John Hughes Elias second son of Edward Elias Gorswen born August 5th 1852 died April 20th 1896
Also Jane, widow of the above J H Elias died 23rd July 1903
Inside the Church on the wall written on a wooden plaque is this tribute:-
In memory of Edward Elias of Gorswen in this Parish born May 8th 1822 died January 2nd 1893 and Sarah his wife died July 25th 1865 aged 43, Also of Edward youngest son of the above who died May 19th 1878 aged 21 years.
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This is my translation of the newspaper article and is as accurate as I can make it.
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Wow - thank you so much - isnt that an amazing find. I am definately coming when I am over in late July August. The plaque was such a bonus and thank you so much for taking the time to drive up, much appreciated.
As I have continued looking at my ancestry in this part of wales - especially the material on the histfam site, it looks like there are a very many generations and branches in a fairly small area of north wales. I will pull my thoughts together to make sure I make the most of my trip. I have discovered the poet William Elias (a few generations up from Edward) is buried at Llanwrog, have asked archives to check and see if we can see where those who resided at Mearn Abbey may have been buried.
The thing I seem to be hitting a deadend on is the census record I posted. The family lived at a property at Gorswen - it was 300 acres so not small. Would you mind looking at the census record I posted above and let me know if it gives you any clues as to where it may have been. it also lists surrounding properties. Like the discussion of Mearn abbey above it would be interesting to know if it was their family property or whether it was part of the Lord Newborough estates that Edward and his father William were land managers for.
I will slow down with the questions for you lol - last one for now would be where you think the must visits from a family history perspectives are - I already have some archives identified (including genealogical papers of an ancestor from around 1850) but am guessing there will be a local history centre somewhere that may cover this area.
Enough for now. thanks again for all of your assistance and the trouble taken in the last few days
Regards
Stuart
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Thanks again. Isn't that translation so amazing. And so sad also. I am posting a photograph of the couple and their children in New Zealand. I do know that they did make at least one (probably only one) trip home. It would have been 15 to 20 years later as my great grandmother was in her late teens we understand and she was the eldest daughter. Her father would have long since passed. Thanks again
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Gorswen (Eng White Marsh) is in Rowen and if you put into Google " gorswen Rowen" click on J Roberts Gorswen Farm and you will see for yourself where it is and what it looks like now.
I've not heard of a place called Llanwrog but I do know of Llanfwrog and Llandwrog, would you mind checking the spelling please.
I'll have a look at your questions again as I'm watching the football on TV at the moment.
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Thanks again Hugo. much appreciated. Very interesting looking home, hard to tell with my knowledge how old the property is.
Thanks again
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What a lovely story - they don't do weddings like that any more. The family must have been so wellespected. Interesting to know that people managed to travel such vast distances - and the time it took to get there. You must be very proud of your roots!
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Yes indeed and still learning! I loved the fact that they were firing canons!
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Elias is a relatively rare name in this area so out of curiosity I looked as the residential listings in the Telephone directory for North West Wales. In total there are only 17 Elias' listed and there is only one listed in the Conwy Valley and that is H Elias of Llanrwst. Another 5 are listed in the Llandudno Colwyn Bay area but most are listed in the Llyn Peninsula area.
I mention Llandwrog before and that is in the Llyn Peninsula, it is where the small Caernarfon Airport is and also the large Estate of Glynllifon. ?{}? In fact a further 10 Elias' are listed in the area where I would describe as the Llyn Peninsula. ( It's the westerly arm of North Wales)
Perhaps it's Llandwrog in Gwynedd that the family moved to and the big estate of Glynllifon may have attracted them there. That's only my wild speculation as I've no proof whatsoever for this idea.
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I've just checked Google for Glynllifon and you've guessed it. Glynllifon was owned by Lord Newborough so this is another link for you to follow up.
Glynllifon is the name of the old estate which belonged to the Lords Newborough, near the village of Llandwrog on the main A499 road between Pwllheli and Caernarfon in Gwynedd, Wales The original mansion is now a privately owned Country House hotel and wedding venue
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HI, some good guesses there I suspect. I attach Edward Ellias' death notice which discussed the Lord Newborough link.
This is the link to William Elias the poet and yes sorry for the typo it was Llanfwrog. Out of interest in that context to you think Plas-y-glyn is referring to an area/town or a house/property? It features prominently in the histfam records over many generations.
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html (http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html)
so much to learn about this family!
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sorry I forgot the death notice! I am sorry it is hard to read.
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Have a look at this link for Carnarvon Traders, there is a William Elias Jnr listed at Tyn Y Towyn LLANFWROG listed in it. There are a number of other Elias' too.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carnarvontraders.com%2F&ei=9RY3Ub-mDMmt0QX5qoCYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGL3osTYtxDibmzEwLOHfkAPB2iBg&sig2=QB4VsUg5loKBt8FWg1ISbw (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carnarvontraders.com%2F&ei=9RY3Ub-mDMmt0QX5qoCYCQ&usg=AFQjCNGL3osTYtxDibmzEwLOHfkAPB2iBg&sig2=QB4VsUg5loKBt8FWg1ISbw)
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Fantastic once again. I wish all my branches were as interesting as these. you certainly seem to know your way around. Thanks Stuart
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Just wanted to say that this has been a great thread to follow. Speaking from experience the help offered on this forum is brilliant and the extra mile (literally!) that people go to is heartwarming. Well done again to Hugo for his Welsh translation, I love the fact they had Bara Brith ( a particular favourite of mine!).
Hope you enjoy your visit to the area when you come to the UK.
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Thanks Jane. And I have learned so much more than is on this thread. I have found two ancestors who were into genealogy in the 19th century and their papers are in the Archives. Hows that for a goldmine!
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Hi Jane, hope that are keeping well. At least you can travel to the Archives in Llandudno to have a look at your Roberts connections but it's a bit harder for Stuart to do that! ;D
The Gwynedd Archives are in Caernarfon so anything to do with Glanllifon or the Llanfwrog line will be dealt with there.
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please ignore
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Thought I would post a another pic of Isobel, this time much later in life with her daughter, granddaughter and great grand daughter (my Mum). A few years ago I tried to locate their graves but could not. After speaking to some of the relatives, I was told that they were cremated and had their ashes thrown into the wind in the hope that they would reach the mother country.
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A lovely photo Stuart and you ancestor obviously had "Hiraeth" for the old Country.
Plas Y Glyn is the name of a house and translated it means the Mansion of the Glen. Here is another link to keep you busy:-
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genuki.org.uk%2Fbig%2Fwal%2FAGY%2FLlanfwrog%2Findex.html&ei=ZTY3UdTeDsXuOo_qgcgG&usg=AFQjCNHTZ1tJiaHILZ1voRjJ-tS3E9fGKA&sig2=8zinUkp0baktiFP-8Z7Ngg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CFwQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genuki.org.uk%2Fbig%2Fwal%2FAGY%2FLlanfwrog%2Findex.html&ei=ZTY3UdTeDsXuOo_qgcgG&usg=AFQjCNHTZ1tJiaHILZ1voRjJ-tS3E9fGKA&sig2=8zinUkp0baktiFP-8Z7Ngg)
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Stuart, I'm not sure if you know about this or not but I'll repeat it as it may help with your Welsh roots. $walesflag$
If you want to find the meaning of a Welsh word go into Google and just type this for example:-
Plas Welsh and from the list that comes up click on Plas Welsh English translations it will then tell you the English meaning of the Welsh word. $welsh$
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Hi Hugo
This Plas y Glyn seems to appear in the family back to the early 1700s see
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh)
It refers to Plas Y Glynn Clynnog. When I search on Ancestry I can see a Plas Y Glynn appearing in Llanfwog in the 1911 census. Do you think this may be the same home?
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Ah - thanks Hugo - I was not aware. In this part of the world we are amazed at the age of some of the homes that remain in the UK and certainly Wales I can see. I live in an 1880s home and there are not very many older really - coincidently that was around the time the couple in question immigrated to put in perspective
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http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/search_index.php?acc_type=1&id=3671 (http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/search_index.php?acc_type=1&id=3671)
It will be a fascinating visit!
Would there be an easy way to find out if Plas Y Glynn still exists or what its location might be - some of these things may be easier to work out when I am there but are trying to put together a list of things to see to maximise the time there. any comment welcome but please dont go to any trouble.
cheers
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Here is another link from the Jones family of Glyn Derw Bodwrog in Anglesey to the Elias family by the marriage of Anne Elias.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Farcw.llgc.org.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fanw%2Fsearch2%3Fcoll_id%3D2724%26inst_id%3D27%26term%3Dohebiaeth%3F%26L%3D0&ei=rGc3UafKLYnoOuDbgJgD&usg=AFQjCNF-smmdgVwlSSBolBrOpLJhIXYDIQ&sig2=Nk0ygN8uHHZdT5Go0bBuTg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CGUQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Farcw.llgc.org.uk%2Fcgi-bin%2Fanw%2Fsearch2%3Fcoll_id%3D2724%26inst_id%3D27%26term%3Dohebiaeth%3F%26L%3D0&ei=rGc3UafKLYnoOuDbgJgD&usg=AFQjCNF-smmdgVwlSSBolBrOpLJhIXYDIQ&sig2=Nk0ygN8uHHZdT5Go0bBuTg)
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HI, some good guesses there I suspect. I attach Edward Ellias' death notice which discussed the Lord Newborough link.
This is the link to William Elias the poet and yes sorry for the typo it was Llanfwrog. Out of interest in that context to you think Plas-y-glyn is referring to an area/town or a house/property? It features prominently in the histfam records over many generations.
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html (http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html)
so much to learn about this family!
Unfortunately I can't see the link but it could be the same property. The village of Clynnog or Clynnog Fawr as it is sometimes called is near Glynllifon and Llandwrog and years ago on Census records they put the name of the Parish down instead of the actual village. I'm not saying that this is the case but it is a possibility as Jane found out in the search for her ancestors.
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This looks interesting ..
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/wa-24808-cartshed-granary-range-plas-y-glyn-llanfa (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/wa-24808-cartshed-granary-range-plas-y-glyn-llanfa)
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I've only just had a very quick look and what I noticed immediately was this note " 800 metres NW of the Church of St Mwrog" Now in Welsh this is Llanfwrog and I know that there is a Plas Y Glyn in Llanfwrog near Holyhead.
It's just an observation but with the unusual name of Elias in this area I would think that they all are distantly related to you. In fact out of all the Elias listed in our telephone directory, I'd be extremely surprised if H Elias in Llanrwst and R M Elias in Clynnogfawr were not related to you.
According to this link the Plas Y Glyn is definitely in Clynnogfawr and it fits in with Glynllifon etc. Just as a matter of interest Clynnogfawr was an inportant stop on the Pilgramage to Bardsey Island and it has a massive Church there. I'm due for a walk tomorrow and my friend lives just a mile away from there so I'll ask him if he knows anything about Plas Y Glyn
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Sorry but I forgot to post this link and wanted to explain a bit about the history of your surname. Centuries ago the Welsh people didn't have Surnames and in order to identify the person they also had their father's name and described as son of. In Welsh this is shown as ab or ap.
In your family tree below the earliest person known below was Elias ap Richard ( Elias son of Richard)
Now Elias had a son called William ab Elias ( William son of Elias) born 1708.
Now about this time the Welsh people had to conform with the English rule because it became confusing for them for example because William's name should really have been William ab Elias ap Richard etc etc
The English wanted the Welsh to stop their tradition and so William ab Elias simply became William Elias and thereafter Elias became the Family Surname
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistfam.familysearch.org%2Fgetperson.php%3FpersonID%3DI183969%26tree%3DWelsh&ei=O8c4UeyCOoHbPaLMgKAD&usg=AFQjCNEBYUBuKp7rBHqaRs66nnyGTOTTLQ&sig2=8D-zlKP8XZEPHp2YxcJZNA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.d2k (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhistfam.familysearch.org%2Fgetperson.php%3FpersonID%3DI183969%26tree%3DWelsh&ei=O8c4UeyCOoHbPaLMgKAD&usg=AFQjCNEBYUBuKp7rBHqaRs66nnyGTOTTLQ&sig2=8D-zlKP8XZEPHp2YxcJZNA&bvm=bv.43287494,d.d2k)
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Thanks Hugo. Interesting and useful. This one is pure conjecture I am going to ask but based on any thoughts you might have about practices of the day would welcome any input. Ernest William Bartleet was a younger son of Robert Smith Bartleet of the company William Bartleet & Sons a very substantial needle making company based in Redditch, Birmingham. I am wondering how he and Isobel (whose actual name was Sarah Isabella) may have met esp since she was only 21 when married. Given the size of Gorswen and the census record, and what I know of the Bartleet's both families would have been regarded as quite privileged in the day.
Would young women of families such as these gone away to school or have been debutanted (not sure the right word) to society in a larger city where they might have crossed paths or any other thoughts?
Hope you enjoy your walk - will be fascinated to hear. Re the likely relationship to the Elias's in the phone directory - I might fire about some old fashioned snail mail and see what comes up. I can use an online directory for that - are you using one online or the old fashioned kind lol! If online is it whitepages or another - which is best for the area. Thanks again stuart
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I can't speculate on how they met but it would be interesting to know if you ever found out. I use the old fashioned phone book to find the names of people and if you wanted to know any then I can let you know there names addresses and phone numbers.
The walk still seems on for tomorrow even though it is raining at present, fingers crossed.
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Thanks Hugo. That is probably something we will never know but I will keep it in my mind as I track any movements etc. Thanks again
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Now looking for Isobel's mother Sarah Hughes. Can anyone read the second line of this census. Pretty sure it says Denbighshire but I cannot make out the word after. thanks all. stuart
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Hi, It looks like Llanychan which is near Ruthin. It's a small hamlet. , I pass through there very often so could check property names or the local churchyards if you have anything else to go by!
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Stuart, I asked my friend about Plas Y Glyn but he hadn't heard of the name. He is not a local and hasn't lived there that long so we'll keep looking for you.
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I would say you are right Llanychan. Pretty clear once you know what it is. Thanks for that.
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Thanks Hugo. Hopefully you had a good walk. I will keep cyber digging also. I have another short family notice in Welsh - this was Isobel's mother who died in 1865 when Isobel would have been only an infant. I suspect it doesnt reveal too much but would still be good to know. thanks again.
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I've translated this and put it in the context of when it was written
25th, Sarah, wife of Edward Elias, Esq Gorswen near Conwy. For immense grief to the family and very wide recognition to the circle.
And betterment in death is hoped
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Thanks again Hugo. much appreciated.
Stuart
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Stuart, I've had a look on Google for "listed building Clynnog" but Plas Y Glyn is not listed there. Because of it's age it should have been listed so I suspect that it has either been demolished or very unlikely had a change of name.
I may be going to the Conwy Archives next week and will have a look there but the info that they have there will only relate to the Conwy area.
Anything to do with the Clynnog area will be in the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon
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Thanks Hugo. I guess we havent seen any sign of it since the early 1900s so may well have gone. At least we know roughly where it was. will give me another reference point when there. kind regards Stuart
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Stuart, You've probably been swamped with websites to look at but have a look at this and in particular the postings of Brevitas which may or may not help you with your search.
Plas Y Glyn keeps reappearing on a lot of postings.
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http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183969&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183969&tree=Welsh)
ref to Plas y Glyn , Clynnog
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also this one: http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=willperf&surname=Elias%2C+Thomas (http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=SHOW&db=willperf&surname=Elias%2C+Thomas)
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and another: http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=2724&inst_id=27&term=Elias%20family%20 (http://www.archiveswales.org.uk/anw/get_collection.php?coll_id=2724&inst_id=27&term=Elias%20family%20)|%20of%20Plas%20y%20Glyn
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no actual content in this, but an index of records kept: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB0221%20WM%201534.pdf (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/onlinelists/GB0221%20WM%201534.pdf)
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Plas y Glyn, Llanfwrog (by Llanfaethlu) Anglesey : listed building http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/wa-24808-cartshed-granary-range-plas-y-glyn-llanfa/osmap (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/wa-24808-cartshed-granary-range-plas-y-glyn-llanfa/osmap) ranary building -this matches the Archives letter from Thomas Elias to Lord Newborough updating him n the barley and oats harvest!
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Thanks Viv. We did see that earlier and is interesting. Will try to find it during my visit. I wonder if there is a residence still there. You can see from this that my family was linked to the property for a number of generations. http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183969&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183969&tree=Welsh)
I had not picked up that this was also linked to Lord Newborough. Its not very readable but earlier in my thread i posted the death notice of Edward Elias - it explains that he and his father were both Estate Manager for the Lord which probably explains their residence at the Mearn Abbey for most of the 19th century (if you go to the Mearn Abbey website and click on the "history" link the very end talks of the Elias family and how they built the current building in circa 1850.)
Thanks again
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Hi Hugo
This Plas y Glyn seems to appear in the family back to the early 1700s see
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh)
It refers to Plas Y Glynn Clynnog. When I search on Ancestry I can see a Plas Y Glynn appearing in Llanfwog in the 1911 census. Do you think this may be the same home?
That's a fantastic site Stuart and I've been looking at it again today. I hope that you have booked a long holiday because there is a lot of research you can do with your family. You've the Gwynedd and Conwy Archives and also the Anglesey one which I see contains a lot of personal info about the family.
Plas Y glyn is just the name of a property and there are a lot of them around Wales. Clynnog on the other hand is a one off. It's a village and I'm still inclined to think that there is or was a Plas Y Glyn there and that, that is where your ancestors came from.
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Be careful not to confuse Llandwrog near Caernarfon with Llanfwrog near Holyhead. There is a Plas y Glyn in Llanfwrog, Holyhead.
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Be careful not to confuse Llandwrog near Caernarfon with Llanfwrog near Holyhead. There is a Plas y Glyn in Llanfwrog, Holyhead.
I know about Plas Y Glyn in Llanfwrog near Holyhead but those records point to a Plas Y Glyn in Cynnog and although I can't find any sign of the building in Cynnog I still think it was there and not on Anglesey but I could be wrong.
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Interesting and confusing.
The histfam and Ancestry sites describe things a little differently. Here are the records for the same person:
Born in Plas Y Glyn, Anglesey, Wales on 11 Feb 1789 to Edward Elias and Elizabeth Parry (Ancestry.com)
Plas-y-Glyn, Clynnog, Caernarvonshire, Wales (histfam)
I would tend towards the former which is sourced to the pedigrees of caernarvonshire which as I understand it was very much based on source records.
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I also note that even today there seem to be a bunch of Elias families around Clynnog which I understand is close to Pwllheli.
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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0DbhWsDENjAJ:wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html+elias+plas+y+glyn+clynnog&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0DbhWsDENjAJ:wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html+elias+plas+y+glyn+clynnog&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
This link was a bit hard to download, but kee trying as it explains the Clynnog to Plas y Glyn connection in the 18th century.I had to access it by clicking on the "cache"
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If you subscribe to Ancestry.com you should be able to open these links -they are all in there - Clynnog, Gorswen and Plas y Glyn.
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sorry -forgot to add link!! http://records.ancestry.com/Default.aspx?sname=eli&dc=100&page=15 (http://records.ancestry.com/Default.aspx?sname=eli&dc=100&page=15)
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http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-GLYN-LLI-0850.html (http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-GLYN-LLI-0850.html)
The ancestors of the first Lord of Newborough came from Clynnog - Glynllifon -that mansion is still there
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http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0DbhWsDENjAJ:wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html+elias+plas+y+glyn+clynnog&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0DbhWsDENjAJ:wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-ELIA-WIL-1708.html+elias+plas+y+glyn+clynnog&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)
This link was a bit hard to download, but kee trying as it explains the Clynnog to Plas y Glyn connection in the 18th century.I had to access it by clicking on the "cache"
I think that this link answers all the questions. William Elias was born in Clynnog but later moved to Plas Y Glyn in Llanfwrog near Holyhead. There are photos of Plas Y Glen in the Anglesey Archives in Llangefni along with other personal records of the Elias Family.
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So it seems there were two Pas Y Glynn's one near Llanfwrog which is referred to in the piece about Thomas Elias and the one near Clynnog referred to in the histfam (citing the Pedigree of Caernarvon publication). Seems odd that the family could be connected to both. I guess there may be some clues in the material in the archives themselves some of which were written from Plas Y Glynn. If anyone knows or has any connections with the Llanfwrog locale would be interesting to know if that is just a grain facility of if there is or was a home. Looking forward to my trip - lots to see and do!
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Wow - photos of Plas Y Glen - very exciting. Maybe it is just the grain facility that remains on the site. thanks to you both.
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http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/AGY/Llanfwrog/#Genealogy (http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/AGY/Llanfwrog/#Genealogy)
Parish church records show Thomas Elias as a member
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have a look at the old maps section.When the map shows Llanfwrog at the centre, move to the left and you will see Plas y Glyn! http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/placemaps. (http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/placemaps.) If u go on Zoopla and type in Plas y Glyn, Llanfwrog you will see entries forw. These are modern homes, but if you select street view and walk along the road you will come across the main farm
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wow. I am in the office - will have to wait til I am home and have better capabilities to do that. amazing hey! You can see the farm - no sign of an old building?
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hi viv. having difficulty with that genuk link. Would you mind giving me some further explanation so I can follow it. Also not having much luck on zoopla. could you give me a property reverence to follow?
i did however find this: http://www.geolocation.ws/v/E/1369460/plas-y-glyn-farm-from-drumlin-31/en (http://www.geolocation.ws/v/E/1369460/plas-y-glyn-farm-from-drumlin-31/en)
regards
Stuart
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Hugo and Viv. If you email me on stuart.bright@bigpond.com (I will delete this post subsequently) I will send you a copy of a tree prepared in the 1930s I think you will find interesting and may also be able to comment upon. regards
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here we go ..
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Hi Stuart, thanks for your posts. Your head must be spinning with all these links that have been posted but there is a lot of useful info in them.
I've looked again at the various links regarding the addresses of your Ancestors and they all seem to say that William was born at Plas Y Glyn Cynnog although I have been unable to find any other reference for a Plas Y Glyn in Clynnog anywhere.
Looking up the links again this is what I found:-
Richard Born Derwen Isa Clynnog
Elias ap Richard born Gefail Talhenbont Llanystymdwy (occupation Smith)
William ab Elias ( known as Willliam Elias) born 1708 Plas Y Glyn Clynnog
As I said before there are only 17 Elias' listed in the telephone directory and the vast majority live in the Llyn Peninsula and two of those are in Llanystymdwy and one in Clynnogfawr
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Thanks Hugo. Yes will need to take stock and digest at some stage - luckily I have a few months to go before my trip. The archives material may also help once there. kind regards for now
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I was in the Conwy Archives for a short time today and had a look at the Burial Indexes for Llanrwst. There is only one entry for the Elias family and that is at St Mary's grave No 361. The entry was as follows:-
In memory of Thomas Elias of Llanrwst who died the 6th day of January 1901, aged 67 years.
Also Evelyn Mary the beloved daughter of Thomas and Mary Elias who died the 7th day of November 1923.
Also the said Mary Elias who died the 29th day of August 1930 aged 85 years.
There was also a small book there which I think you would find interesting, it's called " The story of the Parish of Caerhun" with particular reference to the village of Rowen and is by E C Bryan.
I was having a read of it when my phone rang and I had to leave the Archives. During my quick read of it, I read that it mentions John Elias of Manchester House who was a member of Seion Chapel in 1911.
There was also a mention of Edward Elias of Gorswen and it said that he was a tenant of the old mansion of Gorswen but the mansion disappeared a long time ago and an ancient garden wall still encloses the present farm house.
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Thanks Hugo. The following shows who these folk were who you found today. Great to know for my visit.
http://records.ancestry.com.au/William_Elias_records.ashx?pid=84109063 (http://records.ancestry.com.au/William_Elias_records.ashx?pid=84109063)
Shame the Gorswen house is not there but not unexpected. The census indicated that he was farming Gorswen - I wonder if it too was a Lord Newborough property although Edwards death notice indicated that he and his father were the Estate Manager to the same lord who I think died in the 1870s so may have changed at some stage.
Thanks for pointing out the publications which will be on my reading list.
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Hi Stuart, I know Gorswen is on your must see list when you visit this country but I drove past it yesterday for the first time. I drove down a narrow lane from Caerhun to Rowen and the winding lane followed the small river Ro crossing some lovely little bridges on the way. I passed the driveway to Gorswen but didn't take any photos as the building is not visible from the lane I was driving along.
The driveway for Gorswen goes uphill through some lovely woodland and the house must be somewhere above the trees. Well worth a visit for you when you do come here.
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Thanks Hugo, much appreciated. Certainly looks like a beautiful area. I am assembling quite a list of things to see. thanks again
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Hi Stuart, last night I was reading one of my walks with history books and I came across a walk entitled " A Victorian Murderer's Guide to Rowen" Your ancestor's home has a mention in it, in the nicest possible way and I've copied it for you.
Very briefly, a man called Jac Y Swan had committed a murder in May 1853 and was making his escape via a field close to Gorswen to avoid possible detection. The comments went on to say:-
" Gorswen was formerly a very important gentry house, the home in 1622 of Nicholas Bayly, an ancestor of the Marquess of Anglesey. In 1853 it was occupied by a wealthy tenant, Edward Elias (1822- 1893) who farmed 250 acres and employed 11 servants and farm labourers. After completing his grizzly task the murderer descended from the hills, skirting Parciau Farm and following this precise route. Was he heading for an outlying dwelling or avoiding the village centre in case he was recognised? If the latter, he was out of luck for at about seven o' clock one of Gorswen's labourers William Williams, was leading his master's ponies up towards the mountains when he spotted a familiar figure heading towards him. He shouted to him and although the man obediently opened the field gate he then seemed to vanish into thin air"
Jac Y Swan was later tried and convicted of the murder and 10,000 people, including most of the population of Rowen witnessed a public hanging in Caernarfon
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Thanks Hugo. Much appreciated. In looking more closely at the hisfam data this property seemed to have been occupied by the family longer than i thought. there were initially a couple of generations of Elias but then previously one of the wives family occupied the property for much longer. Is that a book you were reading from?
Also we speculated on how Ernest Bartleet from Redditch and Isobel from Gorswen may have met. I have since found that there was an Ernest Bartlet (spelling error in census) was living in Llanrwst (2 Rhiwlas Villa) in 1881. he was listed as a sheep farmer with 3000 acres (census has correct age and birthplace) so that mystery is partly solved.
thanks again ... i cant wait to get over there ..
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I enjoyed a walk in Rowen today and walked through the Gorswen Nature Reserve but didn't walk past the present house at Gorswen, we're saving that for another day.
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Hi Hugo
Very interesting. I saw something on the net that suggested the Gorswen reserve is make up of land that was compulsorily acquired from Gordwen and a couple of neighbouring farms some years ago so you may well have walked on some of the original Gorswen. I'll bring my hiking boots!
cheers
Stuart
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There is a footpath that goes past the Farmhouse but due to lack of time and a good thirst we made straight for the Ty Gwyn pub and enjoyed a drink outside in the warm sunshine Z** Z**
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Fantastic, i did have the nature reserve on my list also thinking it might have interesting views of the locale. Is the chapel referred to in Rowen itself or one of the other villages I see referred to and which supplied the 270 children for the 1884 wedding?
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It's in Rowen just past the pub I believe.
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great, will add this to my list ... fantastic
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Can anyone tell me what the last column in the attached means - it is for nationality but in some cases says Welsh and in others it says something like "Boch".. Apologies in advance i suspect this is a silly question!
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Hi Stuart, that end column was only in some Census forms and it aked for the language that that person spoke. In those old days it was predominantly Welsh but if the person spoke both Welsh and English they said "both" that's all it was.
In that Census the Elias family spoke both Welsh and English but the servants spoke only Welsh
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arghh - I thought that may have been a silly one - thanks
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Am going over a little bit of old ground but wanted to sense check.
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh (http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183900&tree=Welsh) - this site suggests Plas Y Glyn was in Clynnog.
However when I look at the census records for various folk which histfam says were born at plas y glyn they all say llanfwrog. does this mean the clynnog on histfam is not correct or is there another clynnog that does not show on most maps?
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Stuart, I can't give you an answer to your question. Clynnog Fawr is the correct name of the village but it is commonly just called Clynnog. I can't find any other Clynnog in North Wales but Clynnog Fawr is the area where your distant ancestors are from.
I have looked in " listed buildings Clynnog Fawr" but there is no Plas Y Glyn listed there and although the Census records show that they were actually born in Clynnog they must have moved from there to Plas Y Glyn in Llanfwrog later on.
I'm not saying that the site you have posted the link for is wrong, but I can find no trace of Plas Y Glyn in Clynnog and although Plas Y Glyn isn't such a common name it seems too much of a coincidence for the family to have lived in two different properties that shared the same name.
Sorry that I can't be more helpful.
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Hi Hugo. Thanks for that. The older census records seem to say llanfwrog. The only place I can see clynnog is histfam. The old will also points to Anglesey in the same area. I am wondering if there is a chance histfam may be wrong. Is there anything you have seen in our writings that point to clynnog other than histfam and its source publication? It was only yesterday that I went back to the first census that went back this far and saw the birthplace as llanfwrog
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Stuart, I had a look on Google last night and just put in "Elias Clynnog" and a number of interesting things came up. Some you already know but others you may not. As I said before Welsh people many years ago did not have surnames, they were simply known as the son of. For instance William ab Elias was the first person to have a surname and he adopted his father's Christian name of Elias so he became William Elias and that is how the surname originated.
histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I183969&tree..
This shows some of the early Elias family:-
Richard ap ? birth not known but may have been living at Derwen Isa Clynnog
His son Elias ab Richard birth not known but born at Gefail Talhenbont, Llanystumdwy. Gefail in English means Smith so that must have been their occupation.
His son William ab Elias born 1787 AKA William Elias and residence just given as Plas Y Glyn ?
William had 10 children listed and the only address was Plas Y Glyn Clynnog and this is what is causing the confusion. Was there ever a building in Clynnog called Plas Y Glyn? Possibly because Glyn means a valley and there is a street called Nant Y Glyn in Clynnog.
Anyway, I had a look in the Baptisms for Clynnog 1813 etc but could find no entry for any Elias family there, but there was a Baptism record for 1624 onwards that I couldn't access but you may be able to get into it and find the answer.
One thing I did see was a site for John Evans and Mary Jones etc etc (Rootschat.com) which you might find interesting. It's a contact site and it seems like these people may be distant relatives of yours. If I find out any more then I'll post it here
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Thanks Hugo. The 1851 census for William Elias b 1787 d 1870 shows his birthplace as Llanfwrog compared to Clynnog per histfam. As a primary record I err towards it. The handwritten tree also says Plas Y Glyn Anglesey which is also consistent. I had thought that the histfam material had been drawn from the Pedigree of families of Caernarvonshire and Anglesey bit have not yet been able to compare. I do however have a page which I think comes from that publication which also points to Llanfwrog. Very interesting!
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Stuart, I went to the Library this afternoon and went on the Ancestry website and found out this info, which with all your research you are probably aware of anyway:-
William Elias AKA William ap Elias born 4th March 1707 or 1708 at Gefail Talhenbont
He was Baptised 3rd July 1707 or 1708 at Llanystymdwy and married Ann Williams at Llanfrothen on 19th January 1730.
He lived at Clynnog but the address only said Plas y Clynnog and later moved to Plas Y Glyn Llanfwrog where he died on 29th June 1787 and was buried there.
I found the info below on Google but again it doesn't give his exact address in Clynnog. I would think that the County Archives for Gwynedd at Caernarfon would have some info on him as he was so well known then.
ELIAS , WILLIAM ( 1708 - 1787 ), poet . According to David Thomas ( Dafydd Ddu Eryri , q.v.) , he hailed from Clynnog — Elias ap Richard of Talhenbont smithy was his father, says J. E. Griffith ( Pedigrees ). He is said to have started life as a shoemaker , and the list of subscribers to the Diddanwch Teuluaidd , 1763 , and an occasional note in the manuscripts (e.g. Wynnstay MSS. 7, 105, 131, etc.), confirm this. Later, he became a farmer and land agent to the Wynns of Glynllifon . He m. Ann Williams , 19 Jan. 1730 , as is shown by a letter in Wynnstay MS 7 , and ten of his children are mentioned in the pedigrees, among them the ‘ William Elias junior ’ whose name is found in Wynnstay MS. 7 and also in the Diddanwch Teuluaidd . He moved to Plas-y-glyn , Llanfwrog , Anglesey , in 1774 , d. there in 1787 , and was buried at Llanfwrog 2 July , at the age of 79. Elegies upon him were written by Dafydd Ellis of Holyhead and by Twm o'r Nant . He had been taught prosody by Owen Gruffydd (q.v.) — some of the latter's manuscripts, e.g. Llyfr Madryn ( N.L.W. MS. 799 ), had passed into his possession — and the elegy (a cywydd ) upon his old master, 6 Dec. 1730 , is his principal poem. Several of his lyrics and englynion are to be found in manuscripts which formerly belonged to him — e.g. N.L.W. MSS. 799, 7892 ; Wynnstay MSS. 6, 7 . He was on friendly terms with Michael Prichard (q.v.) , and there was correspondence between him and Goronwy Owen (q.v.) . [See further the article Williams , Hugh ( 1722? - 1779 ) .]
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anks Hugo. I have seen most of this but there are a few things i will track down. the tree i sent you shows there were marriage connections with the Wynns of Wynnstay which might explain the appointment to the role thanks again stuart
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Sarah Elias died in 1865 when my gg grandmother was only 2. any assistance in a little translation of this would be much appreciated.
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Hi Stuart, it's old and very formal Welsh and I've tried to translate it in the context it was meant:-
"25th, Sarah, wife of Edward Elias, Esquire, Gorswen, near Conwy causing great sorrow to the family and their very wide circle in recognition of the long affliction suffered.
She suffered a long illness extremely quiet and uncomplaining and it is hoped that she died in gain"
The literal translation of "she died in gain" I would take it to mean that it is hoped that all her suffering wasn't in vain.
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Thanks Hugo. Much appreciated. Its amazing whats out there to be found ..
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Stuart, I was thinking again about the records that show William Elias and his children as being born in Plas Y Glyn Clynnog and I would be surprised if they were wrong but where is that address?
I was reading about the History of Glynllifon the other day and at one time the Glyn Family ( also Glynne) owned it and in the writings it referred to "Plas Y Glyn or Plas Glynllifon as it is known"
Now this is only a wild guess but your ancestors were very well connected to the Lord Newborough Estates and their Mansion of Glynllifon is massive. Is there a possibility that they lived and worked on the Estate?
Clynnog Fawr or Clynnog as it is commonly known is a small but historically important village, but it is also the name of a Parish that covers a wider area and I wonder if Glanllifon is or was in that Parish and that may be the answer you are looking for.
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Hi Hugo
Yes it is a little odd. As an aside I see that Gorswen was owned by the Marquess of Anglesey. It turns out that it was tenanted by the family of Ann Jones the wife William Elias for a number of generations before the Elias.
Yours is a good possibility but it doesn't really explain the census birthplace for Edward or the Edward Elias (died 1812) will which says:
I, Edward Elias, of Plas y Glynn in the Parish of Llanfurog in the County of Anglesey, Farmer, being of sound mind, Memory and Understanding, Do make and Publish this my last will and Testament in manner following, that is to say,
I give and bequeath unto my wife Elizabeth Parry all my stock of Cattle, Horses, Chattles, Goods and Effects whatsoever and wheresoever the same may be or consist of which I am now possessed of, and being upon the Farms and Lands called Plas y Glynn and Blew Situate in the Parishes of Llanfurog and Llanfflewyn in the said County of Anglesey. (note assume the former is actually Llanfwrog - translation error from handwritten will).
The old tree I sent you also says Plas Y Glyn Anglesey. I think I sent you the page extract from the pedigree of families of anglesey and caernarvonshire publication. this page is not very easy to read. I am wondering whether in transcribing this into the histfam website someone has made an error - perhaps.
welcome your thoughts and thanks again for your interest and perseverance
Re: Elias Family
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2013, 11:21:56 AM »
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Stuart, I was thinking again about the records that show William Elias and his children as being born in Plas Y Glyn Clynnog and I would be surprised if they were wrong but where is that address?
I was reading about the History of Glynllifon the other day and at one time the Glyn Family ( also Glynne) owned it and in the writings it referred to "Plas Y Glyn or Plas Glynllifon as it is known"
Now this is only a wild guess but your ancestors were very well connected to the Lord Newborough Estates and their Mansion of Glynllifon is massive. Is there a possibility that they lived and worked on the Estate?
Clynnog Fawr or Clynnog as it is commonly known is a small but historically important village, but it is also the name of a Parish that covers a wider area and I wonder if Glanllifon is or was in that Parish and that may be the answer you are looking for.
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Stuart, if you want to check it out Bangor University Gwynedd have the papers for one of the Elias Family ( may be Thomas? ) Also find my past has the Baptism Records for Clynnog going back to the 1600's. It's available on subscription but unfortunately I don't subscribe to it.
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Thanks Hugo. There is so much info out there. yes I had seen the Bangor papers. there are some of the Jones family that married with the Elias family also. so much to find out!
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Where's your post Stuart? :)
This is what I was referring to and may give you the address where William Elias b1708 was born[/color]
Reference code(s): GB 0222 BMSS EL
Held at: Bangor University
Title: Elias Family Papers
Short Title: Elias Family Papers
Creation date(s): 1612-1894
Level of description: fonds
Extent: 46 items
Name of creator(s): Elias family, especially Thomas Elias (1833-1901), and his great grandfather William Elias (1708-1787).
CONTEXT
Administrative/Biographical history: Thomas Elias (1833-1901) of Llanrwst, Denbighshire, was well known as a local genealogist and antiquary. He was knowledgeable about Welsh archaeology and regularly contributed articles to newspapers; when the British Archaeological Society held their conference at Conwy in 1897, he contributed a paper on the abbeys and monasteries of the Conwy Valley. He was interested in local politics, and was a member of the Llanrwst Urban District Council, the Llanrwst Parish Council and was a governor of the Llanrwst County School. An obituary in the Welsh Coast Pioneer describes him as a staunch Conservative and Churchman. He operated a successful brewing business at Llanrwst, which was taken over after his death by his son, Arthur E. Elias, who was a painter
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Thanks Hugo. It is certainly on my list to do. Another breakthrough tonight (my time). If you go pack to page 1 down the bottom recall the mysterious photo that was taken visiting relatives in Wales in 1911. We never knew who the photo was of. Well attached is the census record from 1911 (coincidently same year as the visit) showing Sarah Isabella Elias (my grandmother)'s only remaining sister (Annie Pritchard) at that time. She lives in Bangor (census matches back of photo), and has 2 servants of ages which by my eye may well match the two servants in the photograph. Naturally could be a coincidence but seems pretty good to me. I am feeling like a detective at this stage!
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Sorry Hugo just saw your earlier query. It was an error. I had posted another death notice in Welsh but then realised it was another person by the same name. Regards stuart
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I don't know why but after reading a link on pg 1 I thought Gorswen was a black and white timbered style property but I went there a few days ago to see it, but no one was there that I could talk to so I just came away.
It's a large stone house with a commanding view over Rowen and parts of the Carneddau, a must for Stuart to see on his visit to Wales. $walesflag$
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Yes very impressive looking buildings. Hard to date something like that but I am guessing 19th century - does anyone think they could be older. The family involvement with this property seems to date from around 1750 to 1900 so am guessing the Elias family may have built these buildings. At least at one point Gorswen was owned by the Marquess of Anglesey.
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I gather Edward Elias jnr died of malaria after returning from India at a young age. If anyone would mind a rough translation it would be much appreciated.
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This is a rough translation but there is no mention of the illness in the notice. I was a bit confused about one word "wr" it is actually the mutated form of Gwr which in Welsh means man or husband. As there is no mention of his wife then I have assumed it to mean man. The modern term for man nowadays is dyn so I'll leave you to work the answer out:-
Rowen near Conwy
Burial Mr E Elias Jnr
We have the sad reference to the death of Mr Edward Elias youngest son of Edward Elias Esq Gorswen near Conwy. It happened the morning of last Sunday in London on his way home from East India. He lost his health there about 2 months ago. After landing at the Capital he lived for some three or four days.
Tuesday, his body will be buried in the mausoleum of the respected family in the Cemetery of the ancient Church of Caerhun near Conwy.When this happens many of the inhabitants of the neighbourhood will come to pay their final and kindest respects.
It isn't a year since he went from this country to an inmportant office in India.
He was an extremely pleasant and kind young man and he and his family were very much respected by all who knew them.
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thanks Hugo , much appreciated. such a young age. kind regards stuart
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I drove past Glynllifon on my way to a walk yesterday and I bet the Elias' have some close connection to the place. If you go to Clynnog on your stay over here it will be worth a visit too.
At the moment we are enjoying a spell of very warm weather so I hope that it continues while you are over here.
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Thanks Hugo. I am sure if nothing else the family members would have visited at some stage given the 3 generations that worked for him as estate managers etc. Since we last chatted I have learned more of Elias Jones which seems to have been possibly the earlier connection with him. I see a Wynn in his direct line which could be a family connection. Good news on the weather .. its winter here now so hoping for at least a little warmth here and there.
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It was a shame to see this on the news yesterday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-23380663 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-23380663)
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Very sad given the amount of work that had gone into the refurbishment. Hugo on 2 May you included a pic of the board referring to photographs in a chapel. Which chapel would that have been. I am now assembling my detailed list of things to see!
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I take it that you mean this photo Stuart. I don't know the name of the Chapel but it is right in the middle of the village of Rowen, go up the hill past the Ty Gwyn pub and it's about 100 yards further on and is on the right hand side of the street.
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I had lunch at the Maenan Abbey today and it was as good as it always is, so I hope that you enjoy your visit there in August.
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thanks Hugo for both of the above. There were not any Elias family members on the walls were there? I am guessing long cleaned out! Yes very much looking forward to it.
kind regards
Stuart
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I did look but couldn't see anything.
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Stuart is now in the UK on his long awaited trip to discover more about his ancestors and on Weds and Thursday he was staying at The Gladstone in Penmaenmawr. We have been e-mailing each other over some months now and I met up with Stuart yesterday afternoon and had a good chat with him over a couple of pints of beer.
He showed me some of the papers he has found and they were very impressive indeed and he has already visited some of the places where his ancestors lived so hopefully it will bring everything together for him.
During his stay he has already made some helpful contacts so there's much more for him to discover and he's promised to post something on the forum about his visit here.
I hope the rest of the trip goes well for him and will be interested to see what new discoveries he has made.
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Nice to hear that Stuart has made the connections and discoveries about his family. Hugo and Stuart must have a lot to discuss!
I will be in Llandudno myself next week to meet up with my recently discovered relatives.
Well done to everyone on the Forum that makes these nice things happen!
Jane
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Your Roberts family story was interesting to follow Jane and had a happy ending too. I hope that you have a pleasant time in Llandudno next week and trust that you and Emma are both keeping well.
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Thanks for that Hugo. We are all well thanks and looking forward to a catch up. Glad you are still keeping well yourself and getting out and about.
Jane
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A great holiday combining my family history interests with some great sightseeing. I visited a number of graves in the Conwy Valley and on Anglesey and also old family homes through the Conwy Valley, Anglesey and Denbignshire. I learnt a few things but more importantly saw and gained a better appreciation of where and how my ancestors lived. Thanks to all the great people I met along the way and especially to Hugo who was a great help as I planned the trip. I still have points to follow up and I will be back ...
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Really glad to hear you had a good trip. There is always one more thing you need to check out I have discovered!!!
Regards,
Jane
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I am virtually certain the following are pics of the couple whose marriage is discussed above. Ernest William Bartleet and Sarah Isabella Elias - maybe even around the time of the marriage.
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I'm sure that you are correct Stuart as your research has been meticulous. Did you establish any connection with any of the present day Elias family when you had your visit to Wales?
Hope that you weren't affected by the bush fires that we saw on the TV here.
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Hi Hugo..
Via a connection made at the archives I met one distant relative (descended from the same from Elias) but unfortunately there seems to be little trace of the Llanrwst branch. I know that many twigs have hit dead ends but have not given up hope.
The real find quite by coincidence was that the lady above - my gg grandmother Sarah Isabella, her aunty Susannah married Thomas Gee and i met a descendant. I have seen a translation of a welsh book about thomas gee that talks about the Hughes family and the type of people they were. I then spent a night in the house where they lived.
cheers
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Yesterday I received a Calendar for 2014 that Stuart had very kindly sent to me. It was full of photos that he had taken on his visit to Wales earlier this year and had an attachment explaining each photo.
His visit to Wales was very productive and it's nice to know that the trip was worthwhile. I wouldn't be surprised if Stuart had another trip back to Wales in the future as there are still more questions than answers.
Thanks again Stuart for your very kind gesture and best wishes for the future.
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What a lovely surprise for you Hugo and well deserved.
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While in NZ last week I visited the final resting place of Isabel and Ernest and also discovered that the home that they built in Auckland was named Gorswen after her home outside of Rowen Conwy Valley. The are two watercolours in the family. One by Henry Measham of Talybont and one from John Johnson who was part of the artist colony at Trefriw in the 1880s. Interestingly both John Johnson and Ernest were in the 1881 census in Trefriw making it quite likely that he bought it from the artist.
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That's nice that they called their home in NZ Gorswen, a pleasant reminder of the home so far away in Wales. I had not heard of the artists colony in Trefriw until you mentioned it so I looked it up on Google:-
The Artists' Colony The latter 19th century saw a number of artists living in Trefriw. The art movement, which had started in Betws-y-coed in the 1850s, popularized by David Cox, saw a movement down the valley following the arrival of the railway in Betws-y-coed. In 1871 William Barker lived in the village, and the 1881 census recorded another 8 artists living in the village, namely John Davies, Ben Fowler, Robert Goody, Julius Hare, Henry Hilton, John Johnson, James Morland and Henry Boberts.[7] Although artists continued to live here until after the turn of the century, like Betws-y-coed it became a victim of its own popularity. The movement therefore again re-established itself, this time at Tal-y-bont and Llanbedr-y-cennin, where its 40 members included those artists from Trefriw. Here in a building they set up an ‘Artists Club’, and its members were a strong influence on the formation of the Royal Cambrian Academy of Art, which moved into Plas Mawr, Conwy in 1886.[
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Thanks Brian. I did have a look at the census record. They all show up in 1881 and some in 1891. They weren't all young budding artists either, they seemed well established most older with families. Henry Measham was English but in 1901 was showing as living Eglwys Fach, Denbighshire. From the back of the watercolour I thought Talybont. I can't easily pinpoint Edlys Fach - do you know if they are close?
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Eglwysbach is on the opposite side of the river to Tal Y Bont. ( same side as Maenan Abbey) and is slightly inland from Tal Y Cafn.
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A photo Sarah Isabella Elias (later Bartleet) probably taken around 1880. A good one to post on St David's Day weekend.
Edit: Photo removed at user's request.
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A lovely photo Stuart and quite appropriate for this weekend. I assume that the photo of Sarah Isabella was taken when she was single and living in Wales as I couldn't see a wedding ring on her finger
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Hi Hugo. that is my guess also which would put it in the early 1880s i would think.
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Hello, I stumbled on this forum after googling a particular Elias name and found this thread. I haven't read everything yet but what I have read hopefully there will be opportunity for mutual help to Sgbright.
I am a direct descendent of part of the Elias family who farmed Plas y Glyn in LLanfwrog near Holyhead and also later a farm close by called Penmynydd which still stands near the little church where a great deal of Elias family are buried.My side of the Elias family were part of the Llanrwst family and as such I have a lot of research papers on Llanrwst and the Plas Y Glyn families.
Plas Y Glyn was originally owned and farmed by Thomas Glynne in the 1600's one of the sons of the Glynllifion estate , then the Elias family farmed it as tenants for a couple of hundred years, Penmynydd was farmed the same until my great grandfather bought it from the estate in the 1930's ( for £2000 I believe) as the lands were being sold off to pay crippling death duties.
I believe there are still some descendants living and working there , if not at Plas Y Glyn nearby at Penrhyn Farm and caravan site ( not sure though as I haven't been back to Anglesey for a few years)
Feel free to PM me .
The Elias I was looking for was a William who left Llanfwrog in 1854 to make a new life in Ballarat Australia during the goldrush.
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Stuart (sgbright) will be absolutely delighted when he reads your post. I met him in Penmaenmawr when he came over from Australia to do his research on the Elias family and his research is quite meticulous.
You'll have a lot to talk about, so good luck with everything. $good$
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Thanks Hugo for bringing this to my attention. I have been keeping an eye on it but not too often. Fancy another Australian following the same leads. I have learned so much since I started this thread and are very keen to compare notes. Almost certain that I am coming back this August / Sept. regards for now
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Stuart (sgbright) will be absolutely delighted when he reads your post. I met him in Penmaenmawr when he came over from Australia to do his research on the Elias family and his research is quite meticulous.
You'll have a lot to talk about, so good luck with everything. $good$
Thanks for putting us in touch. $good$
We certainly have lots to talk about. It'll be good to do a bit more myself, I've not picked it up for a while.
I'm not in Australia, I'd love to visit one day. My Great great grandma came back to Wales in 1890 , and funnily enough her daughter married a Roberts from Caernarfon and then settled in Llanfairfechan where taid was a bank manager, they lived up Park road, I think, a house called Plas Berllan.
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You're welcome Trishrob, I've seen Stuart's family tree and it's very impressive indeed as you'll soon find out.
That house that your Taid and Nain lived at Plas Berllan is really nice and in a lovely part of Llanfairfechan.
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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ernest-William-Bartleet-and-Sarah-Isabella-Elias/216668895182176?ref=hl&ref_type=bookmark (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ernest-William-Bartleet-and-Sarah-Isabella-Elias/216668895182176?ref=hl&ref_type=bookmark)
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I took this photo of Plas Berllan in Park Road today.
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I have not been on here for a while. I have been learning more and more but are now focusing on some new branches. I am looking at some family members where deaths are referred to at Tremorfa, Llangelynnin. I can't see a place on maps around Llangelynnin and are wondering if instead Tremorfa was a property name. Does anyone know?
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I have not been on here for a while. I have been learning more and more but are now focusing on some new branches. I am looking at some family members where deaths are referred to at Tremorfa, Llangelynnin. I can't see a place on maps around Llangelynnin and are wondering if instead Tremorfa was a property name. Does anyone know?
It was a Township, on the other side of the B5106 to Llangelynnin itself.
Take a look at this map to see where it was:
https://goo.gl/maps/5tlrV
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Great, thank you. I see on that map there is Tremorfa Farm. Do you know if this is historic i.e. perhaps the basis for the old township. In the Old Llangelynnin Church there are various prominent Evans memorials inside the church itself which include xx Evans, Tremorfa. Could they perhaps be the farm owners?
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I have not been on here for a while. I have been learning more and more but are now focusing on some new branches. I am looking at some family members where deaths are referred to at Tremorfa, Llangelynnin. I can't see a place on maps around Llangelynnin and are wondering if instead Tremorfa was a property name. Does anyone know?
It was a Township, on the other side of the B5106 to Llangelynnin itself.
Take a look at this map to see where it was:
https://goo.gl/maps/5tlrV
I did see this on another site "In 1667 the tax record listed David Pugh, in the Township of Tre'r Morfa, the Parish of Llangelynnin, in the old county of Merioneth, on the western slope of Tyddyn Sheffrey, near the present town of Arthog."
Was there also a township of Tre'r Morfa near Llangelynnin in Caernarfonshire Dave
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Tremorfa is a derivation of Tre yn y morfa. In English, township in the morfa. Morfa can have a few interpretations (bog, sea marsh, etc) but in this case would seem to relate to the grassy wetland abutting the river.
Hugo - Arthog is a very similar topographical area abutting the Mawddach so similarity of names would be not be unusual. What is also interesting that is the two churches are dedicated to Celynin as well.
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Thanks for explaining that Cambrian, I was a bit confused as I'd never heard of a township called Tre'r Morfa near Conwy before. I can see from Dave's map that Tre Morfa Farm is on the Tre Morfa Road and the land from the farm may have stretched to the river in days gone by. The river is tidal at that point so I can see where the morfa came from.
The farm is probably the one Stuart is looking for in his research in that case.
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I have not made a certain link yet but this is a memorial from inside the church almost certainly connected to my family. Good to be chatting again Hugo.
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Nice to hear from you again Stuart and hope that you are keeping well down there in Oz. Was that inscription on the wall or the floor because it looks like something you see when people are buried inside the Church?
If it is on the floor then he must have been an important person in that Parish.
I've not heard of the farm but will have a look when I go past next, but that may be in a few weeks time. The street view does not really give you a clear enough look to date the building.
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I stopped at St Mary's Church in Caerhun on my way from Betws Y Coed today and had a look at the Elias family graves. It was a lovely Winter's day and the snowdrops are now coming out.
The grave on the left is of Richard Evans (not the one listed in the church at Llangelynnin) the middle one is an Elias family grave but I wonder if the location of the grave of Richard is just a coincidence or not
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Thanks for that, it does look beautiful in winter. I will have to look more closely at the Richard Evans link to see what I can see. Was there a property name on the grave? The Richard Evans I mentioned would have been Elias Jones grandfather. The earliest reference I can see to Elias Jones and Gorswen is at around that time also noting that Elias' first wife Jane who would have been Richard's daughter died very young - i think about 1790 and is buried there - interestingly his second wife who also predeceased him was not buried there (from memory). When I visited this year I did the Huw Tom walk which I am guessing in those days would have been roughly how they would have done the trip on horseback from Rowen to Penmaenmawr as I a guessing Elias Jones would have done often given his property interests in both locations.
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I didn't really look at the inscription for long so I can't say whether there was an address or not but will check with the Burial Index next time I visit the archives.
Hope that the weather was good when you did the Huw Tom walk as it can be very exposed up there.
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I was in the Archives today so I had a look in the Burial Index for St Mary's Church at Caerhun. so I'll copy it out as it read in the book.
Richard and Esther are buried in grave No C63 next to Elias Jones.
The inscription read as follows:-
" In memory of RICHARD EVANS of Llwydfanissaf was inter'd on the 25th day of March 1789 AGED ....
also Esther wife of RICHARD EVANS was inter'd 28th March 1808 aged .... "
No ages were shown so perhaps they were unreadable but you have another new address to add to your list. I would imagine that the house name could be Llwydfan Isaf but I've never heard of it and I've tried to Gogle it too.
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I suspect Llwydfan is the one which now forms part of the Bodnant estate although in previous references to this property I have not seen the Isaf included. We know that the Llwydfan where they lived was 2miles from Gorswen, Rowen because the "Bygones" document in the Bangor University archives refers to a grandchild of Richard and Esther making that walk of that distance to Llwydfan regularly. Based on google maps the Bodnant Eatate Llwydfan property at Henryd is in fact 2 miles from Gorwsen. Sounds likely. Thanks again for your help Hugo.
http://www.bodnant-estate.co.uk/businesses/agriculture (http://www.bodnant-estate.co.uk/businesses/agriculture)
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I was in the Archives today looking at the Llanddoged Burial Register when I noticed this entry at No 85:-
" Elias Jones Elias The Abbey died Feb 10th at 7 months old"
I've just noticed that I've forgotten to make a note of the year when I was looking at the period 1836 - 1860 so I'll look again unless the know the year already. A rather sad short life.
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Stuart, I've opened up the link and seen Llwydfaen Farm which forms part of the Bodnant Estate and the farm is near Tre Morfa and very near the River Conwy.
However the abode of Richard Evans according to my notes is LLWYDFANISSAF ( it should be two words Llwydfan Isaf) and is not the same name as the place you have looked at.
I don't know exactly where it is but when you have a name with Isaf (lower) there is usually another farm nearby called Llwydfan Uchaf (upper) but it is Llwydfan Isaf you are looking for.
If I can find the address then I'll post it for you. Have a look at this by putting the highlighted bit into Google
12-03-1828 The Salopian Journal- Last chance to read
At the Castle Inn, in the Town of Conway, in the County of Carnarvon, ... growing on Tremorfa, Llwydfan- issa, and Llwydfan- ucha, in the said Parish ...... to Miss Richards, only daughter of Mr. John Richards, of Llaufafr- isaf, iu the same county
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Thanks again Hugo. Attached is another article that shows how close Tremorfa must have been to Llwydfan Isaf and Llwydfan uscha. Some references to the family link it to these names and some just to Llwydfan, is it possible that the names varied over time or that perhaps one of the farms has ceased to exist once it became to Bodnant Estates? I know the Llwydfan is the correct distance from Gorswen as the Bygones documents talks of William Jones walking the 2 miles between the properties (to his grandparents) as a child. More interesting intrigue …
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I came across a site by accident and it's quite good for finding things like old places. Just put British History Online into Google and go to the home page.
In the search box just put the area you are looking for eg Eglwysbach and you will go to an old 19th century map of that area.
I found Llwydfaen Isaf near Tremorfa and although Llwydfan and Llwydfaen are similar they do have different meanings. However I'm wondering if there may have been a spelling mistake at some time but I'll Look for Llwydfan Isaf when I have more time to do so
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Thanks Hugo. Amazing once again. I am sure the grave inscription would be correct so it must be Llwydfan issa we are looking for. Can you tell from the map whether the Bodnant estate Llwydfaen is in more or less the same spot? You seem to be a bit of a map master!
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It's more by luck than judgement on my part finding things but I still haven't found Llwydfan Isaf although I'm searching in the right area there is a bit of that area I can't seem to find but I'll keep trying.
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I still haven't found Llwydfan Isaf but I was in the Archives again and looking at the Llanddoged Burial Register. Llanddoged is a village between Maenan and Llanrwst and I've listed what I found in the years from 1824 to 1870 to add to your family list:-
Llanddoged Burial Register
No Name Address date buried age
85 Elias Jones Elias The Abbey 10/2/1824 7 months
157 Catherine Elias Ty Ucha Maenan 18/6/1833 30 years
159 John Elias Ty Ucha Maenan 6/7/ 1833 2 years
160 Elizabeth Elias Ty Ucha Maenan 25/7/1833 3 months
229 Thomas Elias Tynddol 23/3/1839 23 years
232 Anne Elias The Abbey 11/8/1840 14 years
234 Thomas Elias Tynddol 17/3/1841 76 years
366 Anne Elias Tynddol 15/2/1855 88 years
370 Anne Elias The Abbey 24/12/1855 64 years
519 William Elias The Abbey 11/8/1870 81 years
I looked at the Register up to 1885 but didn't look any further. I'll still look for Llwydfan Isaf but a thought has struck me about the similarity of the names:-
Llwyd = grey
Fan = place
Isaf = lower so translated it means Lower Grey Place
Llwyd = grey
Faen = stone
Isaf = lower so translated it means Lower Stone Place
In both cases it describes the location and colour of the building and the name could have altered over the years, it does happen so it's something to think about and Llwydfaen Isaf is about the 2 miles from Gorswen
You should be able to find the addresses from that link I mentioned before British History Online
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Thanks again Hugo. I was aware of the Llandogged burials and visited there that first year. I can place all those from the Abbey, I will go back to my notes to see if the others are related. Yes the names do sound similar, interesting and as you say, the right distance from Gorswen. FYI it was William Elias who was the Lord Newborough estate manager taking the role over from his father in law Elias Jones also buried at St Mary's. regards for now. Stuart
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Llwydfaen Isaf and the Tremorfa Stud Farm near Tal Y Cafn and very close to the River Conwy
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Thanks so much Hugo. Out of interest is it still known as Llwydfaen Isaf? And are the two farms very close to one another? regards Stuart
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Yes. it's still called Llwydfaen Isaf and both farms are near each other, probably about less than a mile away from each other. They both have long drives from the road to the farm and both are on sloping ground very near to the River Conwy.
If you want to see them on Google put Tal y Cafn in and then click on maps. Go on the left bank of the river up Tremorfa Road and Llwydfaen Isaf is the firsr farm on the right of the road, Tremorfa is next on the right just after Llwydfaen Woods.
If you switch to the satellite image you can see for yourself how the farms and the area are now.
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Thanks again Hugo. I can tell exactly where it is - I have used the Rowen Road a number of times. I can roughly visualise the track the William Jones in the Bygones document would have taken walking from Gorswen to Llwydfaen. cheers for now
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The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the farm is called LLwydfaen Isaf and am starting to wonder if there was a spelling mistake on the inscription or that I had copied it down wrongly.
I have put just Llwydfaen Isaf into Google and some historical documents have come up which I haven't read in detail but part of Llwydfaen Uchaf appears to have been taken over by Llwydfaen Isaf.
An interesting thing I read in the paper years ago and read on here also is that an aerial photograph revealed a previously unknown church on the lands of Llwydfaen.
I'll check the inscription again and keep my fingers crossed!
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The search for that lost Norman Church at Llwydfaen revealed an unexpected find. The Roman fort of Kanovium in Caerhun isn't that far away from this latest find
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-23708475&ei=fpP8VPeZH4KwPZDKgKAG&usg=AFQjCNFtNYRg4G268kFsVl8w2ypnZG8BXg (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-wales-23708475&ei=fpP8VPeZH4KwPZDKgKAG&usg=AFQjCNFtNYRg4G268kFsVl8w2ypnZG8BXg)
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Thanks Hugo. I have also seen both spellings. Here is an extract from Griffiths pedigrees…
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Just to let you know that the inscription on the grave of Richard Evans at Caerhun was spelt LLWYDFANISSAF. according to the Burial Index I looked at today.
The burial indexes are very good and not only are the people listed alphabetically in it but also the addresses are also listed alphabetically.
I was therefore able to see that there were 6 graves in Caerhun for the family living at Llwydfaen Isaf. I'm not listing them all just in case you already know about them but I'll list one that has the address spelt in different ways so that should be the proof that we are talking about the same place:-
Grave No C051
" In memory of Catherine, wife of Rowd Evans of Llwydfanisaf was interd on the 1st April 1803 aged ... Also the above Rowland Evans was interd on the 31st day of December 1805 aged ... also the remains of Edward Rowlands the son of Rowland Evans of Llwyd Faen Isaf who departed this life March 14th 1838 aged 70
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I've got a feeling that you have already mentioned that you've been to Llanddoged Church and seen the grave of your ancestors but I was there today looking for something else and came across it.
I think that you've taken photos of it but I'll post mine here.
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Thanks Hugo. Yes I did find it when I was there. It is in great condition. Of course those buried there lived at the Abbey just down the hill. William's wife Anne was the daughter of Elias Jones and Jane Evans whose graves you saw at Caerhun. Thanks for your continued assistance. much appreciated
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This is a painting of the building prior to the current Maenan Abbey. I think it was painted by Arthur E Elias from a painting on wood that was located in the current building probably around the 1900s. It looks like to may have been painted from up on the hill somewhere around Llandogged. Would that seem roughly right?
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Judging from the angle of the house in the picture I would say that it was painted somewhere on the hill directly opposite the Abbey. Maenan village is directly above Maenan Abbey whereas Llanddoged is more than a mile away to the south ( to the left in the painting)
The area around the building has changed over the years and I'm not sure if the small building on the left is still there. My wife and I had booked Sunday lunch there yesterday and were looking forward to it very much but she pulled a muscle in her back just before we were setting off and we had to cancel the meal.
We'll go back there as soon as her back gets better as we've always enjoyed a nice meal there. $good$
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Back again with more leads … and welcoming of any assistance. Have still not worked out how Ernest William Bartleet (from outside Birminghsm) came to meet Sarah Isobel Elias or why he was living in Trefiw in the few years before. I had previously seen census information of him boarding in Trefiw but have just come across this:
C H E VALE OF CONWAY1!;
….—Sheep dog or bitch. First, St 10,9; second, 15s; third, 10s. "Twenty-one entries. 1, Air John Owen, Hand Inn, Llanrwst; 2, Mrs Owen, Melai, Llanfair 3, Mr E. W. Bartleet, Cwmeigiau, Trefriw; h c. Mr Donald Ross, Moelcadeiriau, Llangerniew. 43.—Retriever dog or bitch. First, 10s; second, 5s. Ten entries. 1, David Davies, Glanafon, Llan- rwst 2, David E. Jones, ironmonger, Watling-street, Llanrwst. 49…
The census record I saw described him as a sheep farmer . Could Cwmeigiau have been the farm?
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per" family search" 1881 census... (Cwm Eigiau is a large valley.....enter the name in " google earth" to see.)
Name Ernest Bartlet
Event Type Census
Event Date 1881
Event Place Trefriw (Carnarvon), Denbighshire, Wales
Registration District Llanrwst
Residence Note Rhiwlas Villa
Gender Male
Age 24
Marital Status (Original) Single
Occupation Farmer 3000 Acres 3 Shepherds
Relationship to Head of Household Boarder
Birth Year (Estimated) 1857
Birthplace Redditch, Worcestershire, England
Page Number 10
Registration Number RG11
Piece/Folio 5536/104
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Hi Stuart, hope that you are keeping ok down there in Australia.
Now Cwm Eigiau is a long and remote valley high up above Dolgarrog and is surrounded on three sides by the mountains of the Carneddau range. It was part of the area called Ardda and consisted of many small farms most of which are now deserted and in ruins when the people of the uplands gave up their harsh existence and moved down into the Conwy Valley.
There is an old cottage at the end of the valley that I pass on my walks and it's called Cwm Eigiau Cottage but I would think that this name was added many years after William Bartleet lived in Cwm Eigiau.
Also because of the class consciousness of those times you would have expected him to live in a far grander place if he was going to marry into the Elias family and would imagine it was nearer Trefriw that the cottage in the photo. I believe that the land and area called Ardda was owned by Lord Newborough and as you know Lord Newborough owned and had close ties with the Elias family, Perhaps that is how Sarah and William met?
I don't know of any property in that area called Cwm Eigiau so I think the reference there was to the area rather than a specific house, but of course I'm only guessing.
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You just beat me to posting something Rhuddlan but thanks to your find I had a look on Google and there are a number of houses with an address of Rhiwlas Villas. It made me wonder if at one time there was a large property there that has since been demolished to make way for the new build.
But where was this large farm? We'll have to have a walk up there and have a look (minus the car that is) ;D
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I put into Google "Bartleet Trefriw" but couldn't find anything to help trace the location of the farm in Cwm Eigiau but something else cropped up. It showed a Car boot sale at Bartleet Rd, Redditch, B98 0DQ, Worcestershire
Rhuddlan's find that E W Bartleet was born in Redditch made me wonder if the road was named after someone in the Bartleet family as they must have been an influential family in that area to have a road named after them.
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When the Census records were carried out they were done in some particular order, and in that way it gives you an idea where the property was. When I'm trying to locate a place I look at at least three addresses either side of the place I'm looking for and it has helped me in the past.
I don't subscribe to Ancestry or any other site but use the Library or the Archives where it's free.
However with this weather being so hot and sunny I'm only going in the garden while it lasts but will have a look in the Archives when I next go there.
It seems that William Bartleet was a boarder at Rhiwlas Villas
$sunny$ Z**
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I had forgotten that I had a coffee morning in Llandudno today so after that I was able to go to the nearby Archives. I had a look at the 1881 Census that Rhuddlan had previously posted and which showed the address as Rhiwlas Villas. The original form however showed that he lived at No 2 Rhiwlas Villas so it wasn't a massive place as I first thought but was just one of a number of houses that are still there today.
E W Bartleet was listed as a border and the head of the household was shown as William Williams. Strangely though, in a book on old Trefriw the book shows the Census for 1881 but shows Jane Williams (housekeeper) as head of the family.
The original records showing William Williams would be the correct one though
Bartleet is shown as a farmer with 3000 acres and 3 shepherds so that is a sizeable farm, much larger than Gorswen but I've no idea where it was other than the reference to Cwm Eigiau. I don't know offhand how the location of the farm in Cwm Eigiau could be traced but there must be records somewhere.
It wasn't long afterwards (1884 I think) when he married Isobel and went off to New Zealand
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The marriage was recorded in the quarter ended 3/1884 in Conway viz
Marriages Mar 1884 (>99%)
Bartleet Ernest William Conway 11b 599
Zoopla refers to the property
as having... ( whether it did in 1881 I have no idea)...." Semi-detached house 7 Beds, 3 Baths, 3 Recepts."
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It must be that beige coloured house on Google street view. I couldn't see the number on the property to confirm that it is the one though but the house is in Trefriw and quite a few miles from Cwm Eigiau.
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Thank you both - as ever of much assistance. I walked past the Rhiwlas villas when I was there. The Bartleet Rd in Redditch will certainly be named after the family, I visited Redditch also during my last visit. bartleet as opposed to bartlett is unusual spelling so almost anyone with this spelling is usually connected. Ernest was a younger son of the Bartleet family hence his move away from the family business to make his own way first to north wales then to nz almost certainly assisted by the family. We also know his future wife attended boarding school although to date not sure where. Either through her being at school or him being based nearby would seem to be possible ways of them first meeting. He did not appear to be there very long at all which seems a little odd given the size of the farm that he appeared to have there. It looks like I have another area to walk when i next visit!
thanks again and hugo yes very well thank you - hope you are the same
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wedding announcement....
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4451749/4451754/45/%20%20bartleet (http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4451749/4451754/45/%20%20bartleet)
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Thanks Rhuddlan, there is a longer article as well about the wedding - a translation from Welsh is earlier up in this thread - a pretty amazing day including canon fire! I have visited the Church - quite amazing
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Cwm Eigiau is a harsh place to live in, it's a wide valley and very long as Rhuddlan and myself can testify when we walked down the valley some time ago.!
I don't blame William Bartleet if he didn't live there but he had three shepherds and they may have lived in a Hafodty to protect and look after the sheep. A Hafodty or Summer House is where they would have stayed in the Summer months but in the Winter they brought the sheep down to lower land for shelter from the harsh and severe Winters on those uplands.
There must be some records from the farm, tax or tithe and they may be in the Conwy Archives but I've never looked for any before. I'll make enquiries when I go there next time.
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Thanks again Hugo. For those who have followed this post it is fascinating to know that there is a current controversy going in in new zealand about the ashes of Ernest and Sara Isobel Bartleet (known as Bella). https://www.facebook.com/Honour-the-1800-1677207482539723/?fref=ts (https://www.facebook.com/Honour-the-1800-1677207482539723/?fref=ts)
thanks again
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I did have a look in the Archives for the farm in Cwm Eigiau but drew a blank unfortunately. There were no rate books there for around 1881 that could link William to a farm in that valley.
3000 acres is a large piece of land but that valley is poor grazing land and there are now only a few buildings intact, the rest are just ruins.
I've enclosed some photos of the three properties remaining intact and the first photo of the cottage near the Cwm Eigiau dam is occupied but the second (Cedryn) and third (Cwm Eigiau Cottage ) are not.
Our Winters haven't been too bad recently but you can see by the photos in January 2016 just what an inhospitable place it can be.
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thanks Hugo. Might explain what he wasn't there too long. Maybe the sheep were too much for him! Once he got to NZ I am pretty sure they switched to dairy farming. thanks again
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I wonder if this holds any clues? ..
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Thanks Stuart but it doesn't give any info that may help to trace the farm. We know from the Census records of 1881 that William was living in 2 Rhiwlas Villa Trefriw, but Cwm Eigiau is nearer Dolgarrog than Trefriw and at one time there was a Parish boundary formed by a river separating the two towns.
In old records I've looked at Cwm Eigiau was for rate purposes, dealt with by Dolgarrog but William is shown as Cwm Eigiau Trefriw so it's all a mystery for me I'm afraid
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You are probably aware of this Stuart but just in case you are not I'm posting this leaflet about Tithe Maps which may help in your research.
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thanks again Hugo. much appreciated. it doesn't help that he was there so briefly. one day …
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Hi Hugo
Perhaps we are getting closer …
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That article is very helpful and fits in with what you have found out already. The village to give it it's full title is Llanbedr y Cennin and is just south but very close to Gorswen and Rowen.
The Llanbedr Y Cennin fair was a popular market place for cattle and was listed in all the 18th century almanacs.
Cattlemen were accommodated in the White Hart which was located above Rowen and Llanbedr but the once busy drovers' Inn is just now a pile of stones.
I've had a quick look at my o/s map but can't see the farm listed on it but as it's Welsh name suggests it is in the right location of the Carneddau to be part of Cwm Eigiau.
Now I could be completely wrong with this but reading the advert again it refers to a "property" which I've taken to be one farm and that is Ty'nrhos Farms.
Again I could be wrong but Ty'nrhos Farms could be one farm with a number of buildings attached or it could be two farms Ty'nrhos Uchaf and Ty'nrhos Isaf.
I'll try and find out some more info about the farm(s)
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I've just found this article which is a very interesting read and there is a reference in it to Ty'n rhos. It is in the very last paragraph just above the notes.
It is definitely in Cwm Eigiau and appears to be in the area at the start of the valley
It must have been roughly in the area of these two photos
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412562 (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412562)
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Cambrian, when I was trying to find out something about Ty'n Rhos I came across this article. Are you this person by any chance?
"Digital photograph of Cwm Eigiau Cottage taken on 14/08/2003 by Cambrian ... Digital photograph of Ty'n Rhos Farmhouse taken on 09/09/2003 by Cambrian"
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Thanks Hugo. one more very good step. I am guessing life would have been pretty tough up there in winter, He must have only farmed there for a short time and interesting that he sold up a good six months before his marriage although I am guessing that was probably the time of the year for sales perhaps especially if it was timed with the fair. This gives me some more clues to track a little further…and a new area to walk next time I am venture up to North Wales…
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Stuart, have a look at the attached link. I haven't posted the photo of Ty'n Rhos because of copyright but it's in the area of my previous photos.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj0uqaIz9TOAhUpLsAKHerZCSsQFghtMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geograph.org.uk%2Fphoto%2F4979796&usg=AFQjCNEEaqlAPc7ZDwyBn_kItmE8YVKh0A (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj0uqaIz9TOAhUpLsAKHerZCSsQFghtMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geograph.org.uk%2Fphoto%2F4979796&usg=AFQjCNEEaqlAPc7ZDwyBn_kItmE8YVKh0A)
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amazing hugo. ill be there for sure on my next trip. I am guessing he probably never lived there, staying in the relative comfort of Trefiw instead but still very interesting. It must have been the harsh winters that drove him to try nz instead!. thank you
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I'm sure that he would have lived in Trefriw Stuart as the Winters and even Summers are harsh up there in Cwm Eigiau. There is no protection whatsoever against the cold winds that whistle down that valley. Very few trees grow up there and one cottage has had trees planted around it for protection but it was still cold and wet in the valley when we passed by.
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thanks .. ill keep you posted on where this heads
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Stuart, my friend and I had planned a walk from Cwm Eigiau up to a couple of lakes called Melynllyn and Dulyn and because you have found Ty'n Rhos we added that on to the walk and I've enclosed some photos for you.
Before we went I found the location by using the O/S map and Google earth. If you want to see it on Google for yourself put Dolgarrog into Google then go to the map and click on there. When the map appears scroll to the left (westwards) until you come to Llyn Eigiau and at the end of the lake on the right is a stream coming in to it. There is a man made leet which goes straight and into the mountain and level with the start of the leet are the ruins of Ty'n Rhos.
It was built on the valley floor and the area is just wet moorland but is still being farmed with a few sheep grazing in the fields. What I found interesting when I looked at the O/S map is a property north and east of Ty'n Rhos. It's name is Hafod Y Gorswen and I think I've mentioned the Hafodty before and they were summer houses where the farmers grazed their animals during the Summer months and then brought them down to the farm lower down.
I was just wondering because of the name if this building is associated with your relatives farm Gorswen in Rowen.
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Wow mthanks Hugo great to see. Within every answer lies another question. Surely the gorswen link can't be a coincidence. It does not seem to be a common property name. Perhaps another clue to how they met although I a, guessing these areas were not far apart so with the social structures of the day these families would have had quite a few mingling opportunities. I will do some more digging. Interesting .. Thanks
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It was a nice walk but if you ever do it, take your car up to the Cwm Eigiau car park as the walk would be too strenuous from Tal Y Bont.
I wonder how William made his way to the farm?
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yes would be interesting. bit like elias jones of Gorswen who also had the property in Penmaenmawr. I am guessing a horse up and over the hill would have been a lot quicker than the Conwy Rd which I understand used to wind around the river.
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I would be very interested in locating any old photos of Maenan Abbey. I asked management of the hotel and checked local libraries when I visited a few years but are sure that there must be some somewhere. any thoughts would be much appreciated
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Hi Hugo. Long time since posting. Based on your local knowledge do you think this might be the property discussed on pages 13 and 14 of this thread?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Llwydfan_off_Old_Mill_Rd_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1478878.jpg
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Hi Stuart, good to hear from you and hope that all is well in Oz.
I would say that it's definitely not the house you are looking for. First of all the name is different that's Llwydfan whereas the house you are looking for is Llwydfaen. The names may look the same but have different meanings in English.
Secondly and this is from memory only your ancestor from Gorswen Rowen used to have daily walks from Rowen to Llwydfaen but Llwydfaen in Old Mill Road is many miles away.
On the o/s map Llwydfaen is near the Tal Y Cafn Bridge and I'm sure that I sent you some photos of it years ago.
Again from memory I mentioned Llwydfaen Uchaf and Llwydfaen Isaf and I believe that the one by the Tal Y Cafn Bridge must be Llwydfaen Isaf because of it's low position in the valley
If you have any info that you want help with just let me know on here
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Have a look at this link Stuart, it refers to Llwydfan but shows Llwydfaen and Llwydfaen Isaf does it make any sense with your research
https://historicplacenames.rcahmw.gov.uk/placenames?ps=10&s=1&q=llwyd&pn=100
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I return after couple of years revoking at some things that are unanswered in my research. Elias Jones of Gorswen d 1844 is buried at St Marys Caerhun. His grave suggests he is buried with his first wife and some children. However he was married a second time to Mary Jones. I have seen a few things that suggest the relationship my have been heading downhill and in fact some litigation followed his death by his second wife family. Also his will had a number of codicils each of which eroded her position. She died 1843. I would like to see if indeed she was buried separately - if anyone has access to any cemetery headstone data or records would be much appreciated,
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Hi Stuart, hope that you are keeping safe and well down there in Oz. Someone on here may have access to Billion Graves but as I don't subscribe to any of these sites I can't help you there.
The only records I would be able to look at are the Burial Indexes that are in the Conwy Archives but at the moment that place is closed because of the Coronavirus and I'm not sure when that opens but I'll gladly have a look for you when it does.
These Burial Indexes are alphabetically so they are easy to find providing of course you know the Cemetery where they were buried but they only list the graves with a headstone
I presume that when Mary was buried she would still have the name Mary Elias but I will look for Mary Jones if I can't find it. Would she have lived at Gorswen in Rowen?
As an aside there aren't many people with the Surname Elias in the Conwy Valley area but my wife's pilates instructer was called Elias and I was going to ask her if she was related to you in any way but my wife had to pack the pilates in so I never had the chance to ask her.
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Hi. thanks ever for your amazing help. we certainly hope life can return to normal at some point not too. far away. The Elias thing is a little confusing when it comes to Gorswen as the first family inhabitant (relying on my memory) was Elias Jones not to be confused with his grandson Edward Elias who was the later occupant. Mary was Elias Jones' second wife so her surname would be Jones. I can see her burial in the Caerhun burial register but am curious as to whether she is in a separate grave on her own. She died a year before him - it is quite possible based on what seemed to be going on that she may be separate. I. am trying to understand and piece together what was happening. It was Elias Jones that also owned property at Penmaenmawr and appeared very wealthy based on those and some slate interests - a helpful fellow at the local history centre told me he made is money as some of the mines had to cross his land to get their product to shippng and he collected tolls. However he also seemed to have slate interests in his own right as there is also a legal case of him litigating with the Crown over their right to extract royalties in relation to those activities. thanks again for any help and keep safe
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It is highly unlikely Elias second wife Mary would have been buried with the first wife.
His Headstone reads :-
Sacred.
To the memory of Elias Jones of Gorswen in this Parish.
Who left this life on the 15th day of December 1844 age 85.
Here also was interred on 25th day of March 1796 Jane wife of the said Elias Jones, age 34.
And on the 7th day of April 1797 Richard son of the above Elias & Jane Jones age 3.
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It is highly unlikely Elias second wife Mary would have been buried with the first wife.
Interesting comment ... my paternal grandmother (died 1933 when my father was only 12) is buried in Ty'n-y-Groes Chapel cemetery.
My grandfather (died 1959) is in the same grave.
Then my step-grandmother (died in the 1980's) is also buried in the grave with the other two!
Perhaps it's an "unwritten rule" for some cementeries.
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I agree that she doesn’t appear to be in the same grave even though she died a year before her husband. I am guessing that was family choice at the time. Can anyone see where she is buried and if she has a headstone.
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Mary was buried in the same Cemetery on 29th March 1843 age 65 by Curate J M Ellis & the address was Gorswen on the burial records. I can't find a headstone as yet, but will carry on looking.
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That was a great find Meleri, what site did you find that on? If you can't find a headstone for it then I'll have a look at the Caerhun Burial Index when I am able to go to the Archives. With you finding that info I just need to look at that one book to see if there was a headstone
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Hi Hugo,
It was on the Ancestry site under Caernarvonshire Parish Burials for Caerhun Page 46. It should be in the Archive, but I can't see it giving any more info. I looked on the Billion Graves site but there was only one Mary Jones, but the wrong dates so not her. It looks as if there wasn't a headstone or it has perished.
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Thanks Meleri, I did see another Mary Jones but she died in 1842. I'll try the Archives asap and at least there is only one Burial Index I need to look at thanks to your find $good$
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Thank you so much. If when times permit anyone can confirm a headstone or it is in proximity to the other family graves that would be much appreciated. They are kind of to the right and close rear of the church as you come through the gates. I guess it’s not surprising that the family and he might have preferred to have been buried with his first wife since she is the children’s mother but is a little interesting. My own grandfather was married twice and with the consent of both his children and those of his second wife he is buried with them both with a very fitting update to the headstones. He was married to both for exactly 25 years and outlived both.
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The firebreak lockdown in Wales has finished today so the Archives may be opening again shortly. I've lost all the photos of the families graves in Caerhun when my computer went down without a backup but from memory the Elias graves were near the Church in the top left of the photo.
The burial indexes will reveal if there is a headstone for Mary Jones and will pinpoint its exact location so that will be easier than looking around the Cemetery
In January there are masses of Snowdrops around the graves and as you know the Church is in a lovely location and is sited in the corner of a Roman fort called Canovium
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I found out that the Archives opened yesterday so I'm going there next Monday and will look at the Caerhun Burial index and see if anything is there for Mary Jones
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I went to the Archives today and had a look at the Caerhun Burial Indexes. These indexes list the names of the people alphabetically and also list the addresses of the deceased Alphabetically.
However I double checked all the addresses and Mary Jones' ( including Mary Ann's and a Mary Anne ) but there was no entry for Elias Jones second wife.
Melari was able to find that Mary Jones was buried at St Mary's Church Caerhum on the 29th March 1843 and I also checked the date against all the other entries but could not find a grave for Mary Jones. The only conclusion I can make is that there was no headstone for her. and she is buried in an unmarked grave there
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Thank you so much and very sorry for the delay. Based on what I have learned to date that doesn't surprise me. In Elias Jones' will there are many codicils in effect reducing the position of his second wife. In a document called "Bygones" in the Bangor Archives it is clear the family didn't get on with her and her brother litigated the will after she died. Obviously a lot going on that we will never know but thanks very much for helping me resolve this particular aspect of the puzzle. Yes Caerhun is a beautiful place. So pleased I visited when I did.