Three Towns Forum

Members' Lounge => Politics & Current Affairs => Topic started by: DaveR on September 29, 2010, 05:39:26 pm

Title: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 29, 2010, 05:39:26 pm
Am I the only person sick of the sight of these two middle class mummys boys who have never done a day's real work in their lives?  :rage:  WWW

(http://www.britishblogs.co.uk/images/581372.jpg)
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Fester on September 29, 2010, 06:00:22 pm
Nah, I feel the same way.
Its hard to respect politicians at the bst of times,  but the younger they are the harder it is.

Gordon Brown and Tony Blair might have been idiots in various ways ... but at least they had some kind of Statesman-like bearing about them.
Well, maybe a little ..
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 29, 2010, 06:47:44 pm
Both of them prize prats :rage: can I see one of them as prime minister  _))* _))* 
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Ian on September 30, 2010, 07:35:54 am
Are they any more prat-like than the Liberal and Tory leaders? Blair's reign has issued in a new generation of leaders - the professional politician.
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 30, 2010, 09:17:52 am
yes they are, but I know what you mean it seems like there's a machine churning out 'modern' politicians, all clones (or is it clowns L0L )
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Yorkie on October 02, 2010, 11:39:58 am
I just wonder how long he will last as Leader of the Labour Party?   2 years?   L0L  _))*
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Fester on October 29, 2010, 06:30:00 pm
All this talk on TV of Ed Milliband this ... and David Milliband that ...

I'm not impressed at all,   though I did very much like the other brother ....  The Glenn Milliband ....   wrote that song, In The Groove?   

Not really heard much from him since,  oh, 1940 ish?   L0L

Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Michael on October 29, 2010, 10:22:38 pm
Fester, I expect you know all the time. But, just in case, Glenn Millar disappeared in small aircraft crossing the channel towards France in 1944. Despite many rumours and theorys no definitave report was ever issued to what actually happened.
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Fester on October 30, 2010, 12:19:56 am
Yeah.... that was kind of the point of my joke....
Title: Re: Millibands
Post by: Yorkie on October 30, 2010, 07:42:23 am
I got a pencil sharpener you can borrow!               L0L      $uk
Title: National politics
Post by: dontheturner on November 18, 2010, 07:16:00 am
 
  Before my Thai Wife (Tippawan)  can have a Settlement Visa, with independant Leave to Remain, in the UK, (and therefore qualify for her citizenship), she has to undertake an ESOL course, in English Language, at aCollege of her choosing, in the UK,and then sit the Life in the UK, test, and gain a 70% pass.

I would invite any of you guys, to take a moment, to have a look at the web site ''Life in the UK test'', and discover the questions, she is expected to answer,- to gain that pass.  You may well be amazed  - The relevance of the questions, is beyond my comprehension..

Dontheturner
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Ian on November 18, 2010, 07:27:05 am
You can try the test here (http://www.lifeintheuktest.gov.uk/htmlsite/self_10.html)
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Ian on November 18, 2010, 07:30:39 am
This version  (http://www.hiren.info/life-in-the-uk-test/1) scores your attempt.

Just wondering if we should move this to the games and online quizzes board
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: DaveR on November 18, 2010, 08:12:07 am
I'd like to see most British citizens answer those questions!  :o  $uk
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Yorkie on November 18, 2010, 09:05:14 am
I'd like to see most British citizens answer those questions!  :o  $uk

"Remember, you can find
the answers to all these
questions in the handbook."


Not difficult apparently!    ))*  Just got to read the book!
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Pendragon on November 18, 2010, 12:13:40 pm
Is that real, or am I just being gullible...........it has been known............couldn't resist doing the test, got 83% two questions wrong.  )*)&
Title: National politics
Post by: Michael on November 20, 2010, 05:18:50 pm
It was headline news on both BBC and ITV, took up at least ten minutes.Unfortunately I had never heard of him and I cannot even remember his name from 24 hours ago. But I found this news unbelievably depressing. He has resigned because he publicly stated that, in his opinion, a lot of [people in this country "had never had it so good." Mainly because interest rates are at record lows.
 I am not interested in what he thinks, its not that that depressed me.  It is the fact that this person, presumably educated (he is or was an adviser to our Prime Minister) thought he could get away with a remark like this. Has he got no common sense whatsoever?  Worse, as the resignation storm gathered he "withdrew" his statement.  So what?  He presumaby believed what he said 24 hours ago.  He might at least stick with what he said. Did the people who control this country tell him he had better retract what he said and "they" will forget all about it.
  So, not only is he incredibly stupid, he is also incredibly dishonest,  AND HE IS ONE OF THE PEOPLE RUNNING OUR LIVES                 Pass the soapbox
Title: Re: Yesterdays resignation by a top Tory
Post by: DaveR on November 20, 2010, 07:47:27 pm
When you go round any shopping centre and see the amount of money being spent, then you could hardly disagree with him. Even on the poorest housing estates, you see people with the latest designer clothes and expensive mobile phones. Given the amount of money expended on the Welfare State, there should be no such thing as poverty these days.
Title: Re: Yesterdays resignation by a top Tory
Post by: Michael on November 20, 2010, 09:01:06 pm
Hello Dave,  I did'nt say I disagreed with him.   I didnt say either way.    I just am astonished that someone like him could say something like that and not expect a backlash.   Then---when the backlash came, as sure as eggs are eggs it would, he retracts it (under pressure???). Either way,in my mind he is either,or both, an idiot or a coward. And the likes of him are controlling us.  Mike
Title: Re: Yesterdays resignation by a top Tory
Post by: DaveR on November 20, 2010, 09:42:09 pm
I see what you mean. Well, there's no correlation between being a politician and being clever!
Title: Re: Yesterdays resignation by a top Tory
Post by: Hugo on November 21, 2010, 02:12:49 pm
Tact and diplomacy don't always go hand in hand with Politicians but he should have tried to justify his comments before resigning like that.    Times are tough for certain people but it can't be that bad if millions of people are still  trying to get into this country.
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Paddy on November 21, 2010, 02:40:13 pm
I've just taken the test and I'm expecting a knock on the dor very soon! Goodbye my friends.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bellringer on November 21, 2010, 05:11:14 pm
On the topic of what people in "high" places say and how they say it, I happened to catch part of the Politics Show at lunchtime. It was the Welsh part and Edwina Hart was being interviewed in her current role as Welsh Health Minister at the WAG. I have never liked this woman since she became the Finance Minister in the earlier days of the Welsh Assembly and came over as an arrogant individual who just didn't appear to listen to anyone.

Anyway back to my point in making this post - she was asked a question about the current state of Welsh hospitals and the Welsh National Health Service. Her response started by her saying that "MY National Health Service would ..................."

MY NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE? Both my wife and I picked up on it and expressed  surprise to each other.

How dare she refer to it as "MY" NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE - it is OUR HEALTH SERVICE and she is merely a servant of the people and cannot claim to OWN our Health Service. :rage:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on November 21, 2010, 05:17:01 pm
She is indeed a servant of the people, and many local and national politicians, not to mention council staff, would do well to remember that.
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Trojan on November 21, 2010, 09:11:18 pm
I've just taken the test and I'm expecting a knock on the dor very soon! Goodbye my friends.

There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Paddy on November 22, 2010, 11:07:53 am


There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L

Thanks for that Trojan. The "O" on my keyboard is broken so sometimes it doesn't wrk.
Title: Amazing statement by a Politician
Post by: Michael on November 22, 2010, 06:31:20 pm
How about this five word statement  "A SMALL HANDFULL OF BILLIONS."    You deep thinkers might care to tell me if they think this is even possible.  It was said by someone in the Irish rescue discussion, its on Page 3 of todays Dail Mail, somewhere. Mike
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on November 22, 2010, 08:09:24 pm
I think its about this time that we should be thanking our lucky stars that the previous Labour Govt did not get their own way by making the UK join the Euro. William Hague was spot on about it being a potential disaster.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on November 22, 2010, 09:15:15 pm
Did anyone else see the program tonight on Muslim Schools?   Beware the enemy within!   $uk
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Trojan on November 25, 2010, 08:27:54 pm


There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L

Thanks for that Trojan. The "O" on my keyboard is broken so sometimes it doesn't wrk.

Try using the Zero key. To the untrained eye it looks the same 0, o, O.
Title: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: chris99 on November 25, 2010, 08:32:29 pm
As Mr. Cameron rightly says, economic prosperity is not enough; we can become richer without becoming happier.
 
He is therefore asking the national statistician to devise ways of capturing measures of happiness.
 
Why not be patriotic and help to  road-test an early version of this questionnaire?
For some strange reason it is not yet on general release.
 
(Simply score 1 for each question to which you can honestly answer 'YES'
and you have your happiness quotient out of a maximum of 10.)

 
If me and my family all work hard, obey the law and pay our dues, can we all:-
 
1. Feel secure in our jobs?
 
2. Never go without anything we really need?
 
3. Find somewhere to live that we can afford?
 
4. Get the education we need?
 
5. Feel safe from threats abroad?
 
6. Feel safe from criminals and yobs?
 
7. Be well looked after, if we fall ill?
 
8. Be well looked after, when we get old?
 
9. Feel good about our politicians ?
 
10 Feel good about the UK ?
 
OK - so how many did YOU score?

Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Paddy on November 25, 2010, 10:08:55 pm
I scored 7. What a happy chappy I am!
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Paddy on November 25, 2010, 10:11:25 pm


There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L

Trojan, If we're being pedantic, you should have written "there are" and not "there is".
Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Yorkie on November 25, 2010, 10:12:46 pm
I scored nought and I couldn't give a damn!    ZXZ    Z**    $uk
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Trojan on November 25, 2010, 11:23:18 pm


There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L

Trojan, If we're being pedantic, you should have written "there are" and not "there is".

Well, looks like there was someone actually listening to Mrs Evans after all.  8)
Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Ian on November 26, 2010, 07:52:24 am
I was put off as it's illiterately worded:

Quote
If me and my family all work hard,

Arghhhh!!!!
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: DaveR on November 26, 2010, 08:06:27 am


There's two "O's" in door Paddy.  L0L

Trojan, If we're being pedantic, you should have written "there are" and not "there is".
Nice one, Paddy!  ;)
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Ian on November 26, 2010, 08:21:45 am
Quote

Trojan, If we're being pedantic, you should have written "there are" and not "there is"

Nice!
Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Trojan on November 26, 2010, 05:45:38 pm
I was put off as it's illiterately worded:

Quote
If me and my family all work hard,

Arghhhh!!!!

 L0L Looks like it's hard to shake your South Manchester roots.
Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Blongb on December 02, 2010, 04:05:40 pm
I want less Government not more. Tell Mr Cameron and his Whitehall cronies to mind there own business stop wasting Tax Payers money. He should be getting on with reducing the National Debt which currently stands at £8,300,000,000,000,000,000,000, yes that’s right 8.3 Trillion Pounds. And we can still afford to help the poorer countries of the world. I’d love to find out how our financiers define poor.
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: Blongb on December 02, 2010, 04:44:07 pm
Given the state of our weather just now I'm starting to wonder if the Australian Government requires such a test  *&(
Title: Re: E.S.O.L. & The Life in the UK test.
Post by: DaveR on December 02, 2010, 05:19:37 pm
Given the state of our weather just now I'm starting to wonder if the Australian Government requires such a test  *&(
I was wondering about going to live in Florida myself....
Title: Re: Mr. Cameron needs your help!
Post by: Ian on December 02, 2010, 08:37:34 pm
Basically because no one understands international macro economics.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on December 16, 2010, 05:23:09 pm
What are they???          L0L
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2010, 09:37:02 am
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 06, 2011, 10:09:27 am
I was reading in the paper over the weekend how 'socialist firebrand union leader' Bob Crowe lives in social housing (with heavily subsidised rent) even though he earns £145,000 (including his expenses) a year.

What a tosser.  $angry$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 06, 2011, 10:15:30 am
Quote
I was reading in the paper over the weekend how 'socialist firebrand union leader' Bob Crowe lives in social housing (with heavily subsidised rent) even though he earns £145,000 (including his expenses) a year.

What a tosser.

I have to agree. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: JasonW on April 06, 2011, 05:17:35 pm
The problem is that the existing rules are that once you have entitlement to social housing you are never reassessed.
It means that a house becomes your home and you can legally stay there for as long as you like.

Due to the lack of building of new socail/council homes and because of  the sell off of Council Houses it now means we have a lack of social housing.

The Con/Lib Dem government are introducing new laws that will mean that there will be regular reassessments to determine entitlement to houses and whether you have the correct size house. This will only affect new tennants or people who swap homes and take on new tennancy agreements.

The other concern we have at Cartrefi Conwy and other Housing Associations is that as families grow up and leave home we are left with couples living in family homes. What we are now looking at are ways of trying to rebalance this situation and find ways of encouraging tennants to move to more appropraite size homes, freeing up the desperately needed family homes.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on April 07, 2011, 03:36:30 pm
Bob Crow is in a no win situation. If he lived in a big mansion he'd get slated for that too!
He was born in a council house & grew up in a council house which he then refused to buy under the 'Right To Buy' scheme as he didn't agree with the principle as he recognised it would lead to a future housing shortage. If he had taken the option to buy it is obvious that by now he would own that property outright but he instead chooses to rent.
Mr Crow constantly gets slated by the national press as he is seen as the bad guy but people need to realise that it is the union membership that votes democratically to decide what action to take in times of dispute and they then tell Bob Crow what to do, not the other way around. He is just the figurehead for the union and as a fully paid up member of the RMT I know that without people like him I would be working for a lot less money and under worse conditions. I know he isn't perfect but I would prefer someone like him running my union as he gets results and backs the members 100%
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on April 07, 2011, 11:35:02 pm
Ask the 180,000 miners who thought Mr Scargill was a great leader... and there are now less than 1600 in the NUM.

Yet, strangely, Mr Scargill keeps on drawing a huge pension and obscene benefits from the remnants of this once great union.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 08, 2011, 08:11:40 am
He was born in a council house & grew up in a council house which he then refused to buy under the 'Right To Buy' scheme as he didn't agree with the principle as he recognised it would lead to a future housing shortage.
Always easy to have principles when you're on £145,000 a year!

Do you think it's right that a family who need a house are deprived of one because of his principles? After all, he can afford to rent anywhere, they need the subsidised rent of a housing association property.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2011, 08:19:57 am
Quote
Bob Crow is in a no win situation.

But by remaining in subsidised housing, surely it can be argued that he's effectively depriving those in real need, since social housing is - and always has been - experiencing a shortage of available units.

I think Crow is very much in the Scargill mould. He's from the old-school of union leadership which believes in a simplistic model of 'Us and Them', Management and Worker', 'Exploited and Exploiter'.  I think we've moved substantially beyond that, now, and the '70s - if they taught us anything - showed us that the relationship between the worker and the company in which they're employed is far from simple.  Short term, I have little doubt that he'll appear effective as the train companies, in particular, will simply acquiesce to his demands and the members will apparently get more money. But, rather like the miners, one has to wonder if the endless rounds of strategic striking, increases in salary and a constant portrayal of the companies involved as capitalistic monoliths  will eventually result in companies going to the wall and the loss of the jobs for those whom he implied he was protecting.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on April 08, 2011, 09:08:45 am
Well as far as the railways are concerned it's probably cheaper for two people to travel by Bentley than on a train (possibly not counting special deals booked 3 months in advance!) As with all  industries, the unions have priced themselves out of the market  :(
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2011, 11:28:40 am
From the Register: (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/08/government_twit_pay/)

The Cabinet Office is looking for "an exceptional candidate to fill the new and exciting role of Executive Director of Digital to lead the implementation of the Coalition Government's new digital strategy".

You will need "proven credibility in transformation through the delivery of digital channels and engagement".

You don't need any language skills, beyond deciphering the advert, but you will need to "champion the citizen/end user through the implementation of the Coalition Government's digital strategy".

You will also need to complete a Criminal Record Bureau check, but you don't need to be a UK national.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Dwyforite on April 08, 2011, 01:08:22 pm
i would be supprised if there are 1600 miners left in the country after thatcher,as for the benefits of office does she not receive pensions for her time as pm,and i seem to remember her getting paid by americans for her speechs on how  to bring unions to heel.she should be burnt at the stake using top class welsh coal.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 08, 2011, 01:16:43 pm
Why would there be many coal miners now when no-one uses coal anymore?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2011, 01:49:24 pm
Quote
Why would there be many coal miners now when no-one uses coal anymore?

Did a quick Google on that and it appears the coal industry n the UK is actually fairly vibrant, although technology, the type of demand and cost of labour have all combined to make human miners of the past redundant.

Coal is still mined extensively at a number of deep pits in the Midlands and the North, and is extracted at several very large opencast pits in South Wales and elsewhere. There are proposals to re-open several deep pits with Russian capital, owing to the soaring price of the commodity.

The UK uses coal in heavy steel and iron processing, electricity generation and still - surprisingly - in a lot of homes.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Trojan on April 09, 2011, 05:30:17 am
US Government shutdown averted as last minute deal reached.


Lawmakers announced late today (Friday) they had reached a compromise deal to avert a United States Government shutdown just hours before the shutdown would have taken effect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20052351-503544.html (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20052351-503544.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 09, 2011, 08:15:01 am
Seems like that happens quite a bit in the US. Palin, of course, was making the most of it all, probably to deflect attention  from her erudition when she called the Libya operation ad 'squirmish".

 :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 12, 2011, 12:49:22 pm
Full list of Welsh Assembly Candidates:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/assembly-election-2011/candidates/2011/04/10/assembly-election-2011-candidates-91466-28454897/ (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/assembly-election-2011/candidates/2011/04/10/assembly-election-2011-candidates-91466-28454897/)

Amazing that, locally, the Labour candidate has no web presence at all!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: gwil on April 13, 2011, 07:04:36 pm
Great to see the nurses sticking it to the Government with their vote as per the news this evening. All the speakers I heard (but it was the BBC though) were spouting lines that you'd swear had been prepared by one particular party.


The result reminds me of the vote that the Arthur had during the miners strike regarding Thatcher union and pit closing policies.


As well as the one when the turkeys voted for Christmas of course.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 14, 2011, 07:13:33 am
D'you think the Nursing union is out of touch with its members?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 14, 2011, 08:08:25 am
The nursing union should be more concerned with the appalling standard of care in some of our local hospitals. There have been a number of stories in the local press lately about very poor standards of nursing care in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd and I saw for myself about two years ago that the stories are not exaggerated in the slightest.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: gwil on April 14, 2011, 01:00:05 pm
D'you think the Nursing union is out of touch with its members?

I can count many NHS Staff amongst my family and friends so I hear quite a few stories about how things are.

The nursing union are no different to any other union where it's the activists (mostly lefties, be they Labour or Libdumb variety) that wind their way to these conferences.

Activists like the 'nurse' Jane Pilgrim who Guido Fawkes so ably demolishes on his blog. When I compare people like her, and lets face it she wont be the only one, to those that I know then, yes, I do think that the nursing union is out of touch
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 15, 2011, 09:08:29 am
Quote
The nursing union are no different to any other union where it's the activists (mostly lefties, be they Labour or Libdumb variety) that wind their way to these conferences.

I'm not sure how you can support that argument. Union representatives are elected, so if the nurses themselves are choosing those whom they know will represent their views and worries, by implication the entire body of Nursing is left wing.

But your simplistic division of Union membership and representation into Labour and Libdumb is clearly unsubstantiated, and - I'd be pretty sure - plainly wrong.  But what yo might argue is that the membership is - en masse - probably rather anti-government. And there might well be reasons behind that stance.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Orme Vixen on April 15, 2011, 09:21:45 am

I can count many NHS Staff amongst my family and friends so I hear quite a few stories about how things are.

Obviously, none of them Ambulance drivers then?
 _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: gwil on April 15, 2011, 09:33:48 am
 ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 03, 2011, 08:15:07 am
An interesting study; Wales has always suffered from the lack of interest shown by UK politicians - remember Welsh Secretary John Redwood boasting how he had sent several hundred million pounds back to London that had been allocated for public spending in Wales?

FORMER Plaid Cymru MP Adam Price published Harvard research findings that Wales could have been 39% richer as an independent nation.

Mr Price, who stood down after two terms as Carmarthen West MP, is now a research fellow at the US university.

His report, ‘The Flotilla Effect – Europe’s small economies through the eye of the storm’, outlines potential economic benefits of independence for Wales.

It argues that if Wales had become an independent small nation within the EU in 1990, and performed on a par with other small nations, people in Wales could today be an average of 39% richer, and Wales’ GDP would now be greater than that of the UK.


The paper produced by Harvard researchers Mr Price and Ben Levinger studied what has been achieved by small independent EU nations.

It concluded:

Some of Europe’s smallest countries are among its most prosperous;

There is a ‘small country bonus’ among EU member states, with smaller countries growing at a more rapid pace;

Smaller countries are frequently the fastest to recover from recession.

The report acknowledged that the sovereign debt crisis in Greece, banking collapse in Iceland, and Ireland’s fall from “Celtic Tiger” grace reinforced the argument for ‘big’ economies.

But it argues: “There are many plausible reasons for opposing Welsh independence, but the risk of impoverishment can hardly be said any longer to be the strongest. Small can be bountiful – if that’s the path that people choose.”

Four key factors made small nations economically successful, it said, openness to trade, social cohesion, adaptability, ‘the macro-politics of micro scale’ and big government in a small country.

Mr Price, said: “People in Wales could be around 39% richer, and the Welsh economy could have grown by 2.5% a year had Wales achieved independence around the time of the fall of the Berlin Wall and followed a similar patter to other similar small nations. In contrast, regions or countries which have rejected independence have performed poorly.

“Opponents of independence and further devolution have often misused the current economic problems to suggest that small countries would struggle for survival in tough economic times.

“Many conclusions of this report blow these assumptions out of the water.”

Plaid’s MEP Jill Evans who commissioned the report said: “The increasing progress towards independence of many small nations in the European Union, such as Catalonia, Flanders and Scotland, has put this issue firmly on the political agenda.

“The debate on Scottish independence, in particular, has huge implications for Wales. So it is essential that we have a real debate on how we build a successful and sustainable economy.”
Title: Jeremy Hunt
Post by: pentan on June 02, 2012, 09:46:44 am
I watch with great interest Jeremy Hunt at the levison inquiry this well educated man seemed to be suffering from some form of memory loss each time he was asked a poignant question.
Looking this guy up on Wikipedia it seems that this is not the first time he had mislead the House seems a little odd that a millionaire would be a Benefit cheat but then again maybe that’s how he adds to his riches.
I thought Cameron was going to stamp out this sort of thing obviously not as he is giving his full backing to this guy

copied fromWikipedia
Expenses
 
In 2009, Hunt was investigated by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards after allowing his political agent to live in his taxpayer funded home in Farnham as a lodger from November 2005 to June 2007.[19][20] The commissioner found:
 

Mr Hunt was in breach of the rules in not reducing his claims on the Additional Costs Allowance in that period to take full account of his agent's living costs. As a result, public funds provided a benefit to the constituency agent... But I accept that Mr Hunt received no real financial benefit from the arrangement and that the error was caused by his misinterpretation of the rules.[20]
 
Hunt’s offer to repay half the money (£9,558.50) was accepted.[20] Hunt also had to repay £1,996 for claiming the expenses of his Farnham home whilst claiming the mortgage of his Hammersmith home.[20] The commissioner said:
 

Mr Hunt has readily accepted that he was in error, and in breach of the rules of the House, in making a claim for utilities and other services on his Farnham home in the period during which it was still his main home. He has repaid the sum claimed, £1,996, in full. It is clear that, as a new Member in May 2005, his office arrangements were at best disorganised.[20]
 
The Legg Report showed no other outstanding issues.[21] Hunt's expenses were ranked 568 out of 647 in 2008–2009 and 548 out of 645 in 2007–8.[22]
 
 Hillsborough comments
 
In June 2010, Hunt attracted controversy for suggesting football hooliganism played a part in the death of 96 football fans in the Hillsborough disaster; when in reality lack of police control and the presence of terraces and perimeter fences were established as the causes of the tragedy. He later apologised saying "I know that fan unrest played no part in the terrible events of April 1989 and I apologise to Liverpool fans and the families of those killed and injured in the Hillsborough disaster if my comments caused any offence."[23]
 
 Tax avoidance
 
In April 2012, immediately following David Cameron's statement that he would not associate himself with anyone who carried out “aggressive tax avoidance”, the Daily Telegraph disclosed that Hunt had reduced his tax bill by over £100,000 by receiving dividends from Hotcourses in the form of property which was promptly leased back to the company.[24] The dividend in specie was paid just before a 10% rise in dividend tax and Hunt was not required to pay stamp duty on the property
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 04, 2012, 05:22:07 pm
Local Lad, David Jones has been appointed Secretary of State for Wales.

Congratulations to him!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 04, 2012, 05:56:07 pm
Local MP and living locally, Yorkie, but born in London.

Nevertheless, good news (hopefully) for North Wales for a change.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 04, 2012, 06:52:02 pm
Local MP and living locally, Yorkie, but born in London.

Yep!  I know David quite well.   Us Londoners have to stick together, don'tcha know?   But he had Welsh parents and did learn Welsh.   Sara, his wife, is Welsh born and bred!  But to my mind where one is born is of little consequence.  I'm half Dutch, half Yorkshire and born in the Smoke but that never hindered my progress.   :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ludo on September 04, 2012, 07:28:02 pm
I'm half Dutch, half Yorkshire and born in the Smoke but that never hindered my progress.   :D

Spreek je dan Nederlands Yorkie?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 04, 2012, 07:41:22 pm
I'm half Dutch, half Yorkshire and born in the Smoke but that never hindered my progress.   :D

Spreek je dan Nederlands Yorkie?

Dad came to UK in 1909 when he was 9 years old so he grew up speaking English, although he also spoke, German and Yiddish (he lived in th East End amongst all nationalities).  As a result us kids never learnt any Dutch, except for a few swear words!  But as the Dutch all speak fluent English I don't have any problems with conversation.   Tot ziens! 
 :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ludo on September 04, 2012, 08:41:16 pm
But as the Dutch all speak fluent English I don't have any problems with conversation.   Tot ziens! 
 :D

Oh - if only that were true a few years ago!. It is a popular misconception though alas. Many people in the capital speak reasonably good english, when you get out to other cities like Groningen, Leeuwarden, (where most people speak Vries - another language altogether) or Nijmegen where I live, you often encounter people in your day to day life who speak no english at all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: white rabbit on September 04, 2012, 08:48:24 pm
Local Lad, David Jones has been appointed Secretary of State for Wales.

Congratulations to him!

Congratulations to David, I wish him well in his challenge.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 04, 2012, 08:56:37 pm
Last time I was in The Netherlands was when our cruise ship called into Umuiden to pick up passengers.   I normally meet many Hollanders on holiday in Portugal.  If I'm stuck I can revert to my schoolboy German or French or Portuguese.   As an alternative I can do what the British do - if they look as though they don't understand - speak LOUDER! _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ludo on September 04, 2012, 09:14:43 pm
- if they look as though they don't understand speak LOUDER! _))*

WORKS EVERY TIME!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on January 08, 2013, 10:10:28 am
Looks as though things are getting worse in Belfast. What a daft decision the Council made about the Union Flag!    Surely as part of the United Kingdom they should fly the Union Jack every day nt just high days and holidays?    $uk $wales $eu
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 08, 2013, 12:01:10 am
I have made no secret of my dislike of modern day politicians, but despite that I have a keen interest in politics generally.
Indeed, BBC's Question Time is one of my favourite shows, and I enjoy the heated debate irrespective of who is on the receiving end.
I have no political affiliations, and to my shame, I have not in fact voted in the last 2 general elections.

So, that said, it has taken me a couple of days to get over the shock of what I heard uttered by the Leader of Plaid Cymru in their TV Polical Broadcast earlier this week.

She said, one of the main things we can do to cure the economic problems is for all of us to ''go out and spend a few extra pounds in the shops around us''.
The naivety of that statement beggars belief.
On her say so, shall we all go and buy things we don't need?  Which will no doubt end up in land-fill and cause us to miss an EU waste recycling target.
Where are these few extra pounds to come from?  As wages are static, yet inflation continues apace, does she believe that we all have disposable income to throw at things we otherwise would not have purchased?

Perhaps she should stand at the gates of QH in Mochdre and urge those poor sods to spend a bit of their derisory redundancy pay in Halfords?
It was such an ill thought out, and frankly insulting statement that I thought I had mis-heard her, but no!

I am a sole trader, shopkeeper if you like, and the words of this political numpty should have been music to my ears.
But no,  I have long since realised that you do not have a divine right to simply obtain money from customers. 
You must offer something that they want, or perhaps need... and you might just stand a chance of making a small living.
Whether I do or not is irrelevant, the principle is the same for cafes, hoteliers and any service provider.
People will not suddenly, on her say so,walk into any shop and buy something they do not need... who on this Forum would do something like that?

At a time of recession and low growth, it is human nature for us to squirrel away any money we have, and not squander it.
People are genuinely worried about where the next pay packet will come from,  the days of 'jobs for life' have long gone.
People are frightened about the future, and for their families and they are looking for some kind of leadership from our politicians.  They find nothing but empty words and loud bickering over the despatch box.

If that is the best that a leader of a national party can come up with, then it really is time for radical change.  &shake&





Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Nemesis on February 08, 2013, 08:28:11 am
Well written Fester. I am in full agreement with you.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on February 08, 2013, 07:01:10 pm
David Cameron comes back from Brussels with a big smile on his face, telling anyone who will listen what a good job he has done because he has reduced the EU’s budget down to €908bn. What he’s not telling you is that even though he has managed to negotiate a reduction in the euro budget our contribution is going up because our rebate has been cut. From the implementation of the new budget if ratified by the European Parliament it will cost the British Public €50m a day to stay in Euro Cuckoo Land. I for one want a Referendum now Mr Cameron because we all know what your promises of one sometime in the future are worth.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2013, 11:17:53 am
Political opinions vary and every one is entitled to their own view but there is a lot of hypocrisy  with Politicians.     Maggie Thatcher said once that it is inconceivable that anyone on benefits should receive more money than someone in work and I agree completely with her but unfortunately she did very little about sorting it out.
David Cameron on the other hand agrees with her views and has started a process by capping benefits so full marks to him for that.
Cameron has also spoken strongly on tax avoidance and lambasted Jimmy Carr for taking advantage of a legal loophole to avoid paying too much tax.   Will he close all the loopholes?     No chance when it will affect many of his own party and also the Party funding,
The Daily Mirror reported on Saturday that Margaret Thatcher's £6 million London home is owned by a mysterious company with links to 3 notorious tax havens.   Financial experts said that it was a scheme that would help her estate avoid millions of pounds of inheritance tax.
John Christensen of the Tax Justice Network said "  This does not pass the smell test and simply cannot be allowed to happen in 21st Britain"
If a former Prime Minister can do it then I'm sure that some of the Tory MP's are doing the same.    We'll find out in time.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 15, 2013, 12:18:42 pm
Quote
If a former Prime Minister can do it then I'm sure that some of the Tory MP's are doing the same.
\
Some?  _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on April 15, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
The Daily Mirror reported on Saturday that Margaret Thatcher's £6 million London home is owned by a mysterious company with links to 3 notorious tax havens.   Financial experts said that it was a scheme that would help her estate avoid millions of pounds of inheritance tax.

Maybe it is in a Trust Fund to pay for her Funeral!     :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2013, 01:02:03 pm
Let's not forget all the Labour MPs caught fiddling their expenses too.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 15, 2013, 01:36:56 pm
There's a difference between fiddling expenses, with their tiny, fiscally unimportant  amounts, and wilfully depriving the treasury of millions, don't you Agree?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2013, 02:00:52 pm
Theft is theft, regardless of the amount., Ian.  &shake&

Margaret Moran received £53,000 in bogus MP expenses, jury finds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/13/margaret-moran-bogus-mp-expenses (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/nov/13/margaret-moran-bogus-mp-expenses)

MP's expenses: Denis MacShane resigns over false invoices
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20178332 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20178332)

Expenses fraud Labour MP Jim Devine out of jail after four months
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/expenses-fraud-labour-mp-jim-devine-out-of-jail-after-four-months-2330266.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/expenses-fraud-labour-mp-jim-devine-out-of-jail-after-four-months-2330266.html)

Senior Labour MP Denis MacShane Resigns Over Expenses Fraud
http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/senior-labour-mp-denis-macshane-resigns-over-expenses-scam/ (http://richardwillisuk.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/senior-labour-mp-denis-macshane-resigns-over-expenses-scam/)

...and on and on and on.....

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on April 15, 2013, 02:46:33 pm
And it must all start somewhere?   Probably at a local level where it has been known for two individuals to travel to a meeting in one car but both claim expenses!  And then the situation just escalates as those concerned discover that they can claim more and more and still get away with it.

The so-called Independent Auditors are unable to detect many such amounts and very little goes challenged.  The total cost to the Country must amount to millions!   )*)&

And the never empty trough is there to feed even more of the greedy pigs!    $hands$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 15, 2013, 02:57:51 pm
Quote
...and on and on and on.....

Well, I'll start posting the lists of tax evasion loopholes used by Tories, if you wish, but I'm one sure we have the bandwidth...


 _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 15, 2013, 03:33:05 pm
Quote
...and on and on and on.....

Well, I'll start posting the lists of tax evasion loopholes used by Tories, if you wish, but I'm one sure we have the bandwidth...


 _))* _))*
Are you including Guto Bebb and David Jones in your list?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on April 15, 2013, 04:07:12 pm
I understand tax avoidance and tax evasion are two separate issues.  One is criminal, the other is taking advantage of the law to ensure you don't pay more than you need to.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2013, 04:09:32 pm
If a former Prime Minister can do it then I'm sure that some of the Tory MP's are doing the same.    We'll find out in time.
[/quote]

Jonathon Aitken said that he wouldn't do it, but then he does tell porkies.  Neil Hamilton said that he'll have to ask his Barrister ( I thought that he was one once!)  but the Bill won't get through the house of Lords anyway  as good old Lord Archer will see to that.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2013, 04:14:41 pm
I understand tax avoidance and tax evasion are two separate issues.  One is criminal, the other is taking advantage of the law to ensure you don't pay more than you need to.

You are spot on Cambrian but Joe Public can't take advantage of tax avoidance, it's something companies and the well paid can do.   If it's morally wrong to do it as Cameron said then why doesn't he stop it now.      ???
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on April 15, 2013, 05:51:52 pm

You are spot on Cambrian but Joe Public can't take advantage of tax avoidance, it's something companies and the well paid can do.   If it's morally wrong to do it as Cameron said then why doesn't he stop it now.      ???

What and upset all his supporters?   
 $uk
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2013, 08:06:13 pm
Well said Yorkie     $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on June 14, 2013, 06:13:36 pm
Today David Cameron declared his support of Barak Obama to assist in the settlement of the unrest in Syria.

Is this a bit a deja vou, or am I thinking of another PM, another President and another Country?

Lets hope this time the UK will see sense and not follow the US like a bloody lap dog!
 $uk
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 14, 2013, 06:58:01 pm
Agreed. It's none of our business, let them get on with it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 14, 2013, 08:25:32 pm
I concur.
No matter which country we poke our noses into, we never seem to make things better, just the opposite usually.

All that happens is that we lose UK lives, and become hated for decades to come by the locals.

I advocate investing resources into HELPING the estimated 3.5 million people who are displaced on the borders, and let the battle ensue internally without our picking sides. Then, when its over, they can move back in and pick up the pieces of whats left.  How idealistic of me.
At least we will be alleviating a little misery, rather than causing it for a change.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on July 28, 2013, 04:40:57 pm
OK folks, let us all get together and give a great big cheer for the Home Secretary, Theresa May, who has assured us that she will be soldiering on with her Ministerial duties despite discovering that she  has type 1 Diabetes.  Worth every bit of the exposure she has received from the BBC, ITV, and all corners of the National Media.

Doesn't she know that thousands of people lead normal working lives with this problem?  One would think from the various reports that she has set herself up as  a Martyr!   Get on with your work Mrs May, and stop trying to get the sympathy vote for your possible forthcoming assault on the Party Leadership!  :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: richardbroomhall on August 02, 2013, 05:20:34 am
Looking at the test, I'd be one of those Britains  chucked out of the country.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on August 02, 2013, 10:45:41 am
Looking at the test, I'd be one of those Britains  chucked out of the country.

What test?    ?{}?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 05, 2013, 12:54:45 am
I wonder what possible reason there could be for there being over 300,000 attempts to access porn websites in the last 12 months.... at The Houses of Parliament !!!!   :o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23954447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23954447)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 05, 2013, 06:59:20 am
Government research?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 05, 2013, 07:18:33 am
I wonder what possible reason there could be for there being over 300,000 attempts to access porn websites in the last 12 months.... at The Houses of Parliament !!!!   :o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23954447 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23954447)

The low number is accounted for by the very long Summer recess when they were away on holidays!   _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 05, 2013, 07:46:38 am
Quote
wonder what possible reason there could be for there being over 300,000 attempts to access porn websites in the last 12 months

MPs have always had difficulty with new technology, poor things...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on September 05, 2013, 12:55:06 pm
Although, no problem working out their expenses!  :twoface:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on September 05, 2013, 01:34:20 pm
Although, no problem working out their expenses!  :twoface:

Most of them even got those wrong!   _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 17, 2014, 05:09:46 pm
Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg protesters chain themselves to Welsh Government offices
17 Feb 2014 10:04

Campaingers chained themselves to Welsh Government offices this morning demanding action to stop what they say is a worrying decline in the Welsh language .

 Six protesters from Welsh language pressure group Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg took the action at the Welsh Government offices in Llandudno Junction at about 6.30am this morning.

 They claimed the Welsh Government had failed to respond to the latest Census results which showed a decline in the number of Welsh speakers.

 There were reports workers were being turned away while police dealt with the situation.

 Campaigners said the action was part of a series over the spring they will be organising in response to the "crisis" revealed by the Census results released a year ago, which they claim is down to a lack of leadership and policy response by the Welsh Government.

Robin Farrar, Chair of Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg commented: “We’re here to speak out for the present generation, and those to come, who should be able to live in Welsh.

 "There’s a real crisis facing the language, but the Welsh Government is not acting seriously. We’re certain that our unique national language can thrive over the years to come with positive campaigning and political will.

 "But, instead of changing policies and introducing new ones, we have seen more the same from Carwyn Jones and his government. Indeed, the only new idea Carwyn Jones has is to encourage people to email five times a day, despite him not even doing that himself.

"We don’t trust the Government and a number of top officials to prioritse getting to grips with the factors like planning and education which threaten the longevity of the language. Instead of showing positive leadership, the Labour Government is reacting idly once again. If we continue under this lazy leadership, we won’t see the growth in our language that so many of the public want."

 Cymdeithas yr Iaith members are calling on the Welsh Govenrment to adopt six basic policy change, such as Welsh-medium education for all, fair funding for the language, and a new planning system for the benefit of our communities.

 He added: "For over a year, we have written letters, held meetings, taken part in conferences and endless conversations with the Government.

 "With our civil disobedience, we are calling on Carwyn Jones and his government to take progressive and constructive steps to ensure everyone gets to live in Welsh.

 "We will continue with these actions until we see evidence of positive action.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/cymdeithas-yr-iaith-gymraeg-protesters-6716706 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/cymdeithas-yr-iaith-gymraeg-protesters-6716706)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on February 17, 2014, 06:32:58 pm
I personally have nothing against the use or preservation of the Welsh language.  Everything produced by Government is in both languages, road signs, public notices, advertisements and even many shops operate in both languages.  Those who want schooling in Welsh have plenty of opportunities to do so.

If, after all that, the public at large choose not to make use of Welsh, then no amount of protest by any group will change the situation.   In fact, by some of CyIG actions,  many would be supporters could well be  lost! 
 $walesflag$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 27, 2014, 12:55:56 pm
I see the UKIP polled the largest number of votes in Conwy, Denbighshire & Flintshire in the recent European election.

Given that Wales benefits greatly from EU membership*, I wonder how UKIP plans to make up the shortfall in Govt spending that will result from a  withdrawal from the EU? Does anyone seriously imagine that a UKIP London government will divert billions of pounds of spending to Wales to make up the difference?

*Wales receives, per capita, the highest amount of EU spending in the UK. It will receive a total of £6,000,000,000 in funds from the EU in the 2000-2020 period.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2014, 01:34:43 pm
It may only be a protest vote as non of the other political parties are listening to the electorate.   There are genuine concerns amongst the general public about immigration and the Benefit system but the mainstream political parties are just not listening and not prepared to do anything positive about those concerns.
Wales is not the only country concerned about those issues, England is and so are  other countries in Europe as expressed in the recent votes.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 27, 2014, 02:04:22 pm
It may only be a protest vote as non of the other political parties are listening to the electorate.   There are genuine concerns amongst the general public about immigration and the Benefit system but the mainstream political parties are just not listening and not prepared to do anything positive about those concerns.
Wales is not the only country concerned about those issues, England is and so are  other countries in Europe as expressed in the recent votes.

I would say the 'concerns' are not genuine, but deeply misguided. Just look at the actual facts of both benefits and immigration
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 27, 2014, 02:10:04 pm
There are loads of good sources out there - this one for instance

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay/16332 (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay/16332)

It's detailed but the only thing you really need to know is

"immigrants are generally net contributors to the British economy, paying more into the system in taxes than they take out by accessing public services."


Given that overwhelming fact, if anyone still has a problem with immigrants, in my opinion their 'concerns' can only be based on xeonophobia.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on May 27, 2014, 03:01:16 pm

"immigrants are generally net contributors to the British economy, paying more into the system in taxes than they take out by accessing public services."

This can, of course, be turned on its head.
The immigrants are paying the taxes from the wages received for jobs they have taken away from the British worker!  And due to this, the British worker has become a nett drain on the country's finances.

And anyone who doesn't realise that is (generally) a Conservative!    :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2014, 12:10:14 am
There are loads of good sources out there - this one for instance

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay/16332 (http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay/16332)

It's detailed but the only thing you really need to know is

"immigrants are generally net contributors to the British economy, paying more into the system in taxes than they take out by accessing public services."


Given that overwhelming fact, if anyone still has a problem with immigrants, in my opinion their 'concerns' can only be based on xeonophobia.

B2R, is it just possible that the figures presented to show the benefits of immigration could be wrong?

For example, the disproportionate amount of crime committed by certain ethnic groups (gangs etc) is a massive drain on police resources, which is not accounted for in your report.   Nor is the disproportionate drain on the NHS from those who have many more babies than the indigenous population.

The UK is now an over populated rock in the N Atlantic, which is unable to manage its waste, energy or basic services due to the overwhelming demands made on the swindling resouces..... and the inept management of the situation.

For anyone who says there are NO issues with immigration to the UK, I would implore them to live for one year in many parts of the UK badly affected by it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 08:10:19 am
Quote
The UK is now an over populated rock in the N Atlantic, which is unable to manage its waste, energy or basic services due to the overwhelming demands made on the swindling resouces..... and the inept management of the situation.

I can agree with the first part of that;  in terms of land area vis a vis population, I think we're the most crowded of all the European countries. But the Ch 4 website and UCL are both respected sources of information and research (and infinitely more trustworthy than the DFM) so while figures and stats are always to be treated with caution I believe that those at least, are probably more reliable than personal experience in terms of the overall picture.

That's not to say there won't be pockets of groups where problems specific to those groups exist but UKIP itself is enjoying its current success partly because it's never actually been tested and partly because the main parties never believed anyone would take their bigoted and uninformed ramblings seriously.  Which I find odd, considering they're aware people still actually read and pay for the DFM.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 08:26:30 am
Might be worth supporting this:

https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/real-recall#petition
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2014, 09:31:51 am
The issue of how crowded the country is getting is a very valid one, I think. The Uk currently has a Population Density of 256 people per square kilometre - this compares with an EU average of 116.

At what point is the UK too full to accept any more people? B2R, I'm interested to know - where would you draw the line?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 28, 2014, 12:18:59 pm
The issue of how crowded the country is getting is a very valid one, I think. The Uk currently has a Population Density of 256 people per square kilometre - this compares with an EU average of 116.

At what point is the UK too full to accept any more people? B2R, I'm interested to know - where would you draw the line?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables)

The population density is not dangerously high, several countries in the world are higher, including Belguim and Holland. This isn't a reason to restrict immigration, which is FALLING anyway.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2014, 12:32:07 pm
It may only be a protest vote as non of the other political parties are listening to the electorate.   There are genuine concerns amongst the general public about immigration and the Benefit system but the mainstream political parties are just not listening and not prepared to do anything positive about those concerns.
Wales is not the only country concerned about those issues, England is and so are  other countries in Europe as expressed in the recent votes.

I would say the 'concerns' are not genuine, but deeply misguided. Just look at the actual facts of both benefits and immigration

It's rather condescending to say or even think that the 27.49 per cent of the population who voted for UKIP are misguided.     If anyone thinks that the present levels of immigration and benefit payments are sustainable then they should wake up to the real world.
It seems that anyone who expresses concerns over these matters is deemed a racist, fascist, nazi or even a reader of the DFM. which is  unfair and makes people reluctant to speak out against immigration and benefits.
Statistics can be made to show anything, depending on your point of view so don't put too much emphasise on those figures and you as a Union rep should know that fact better than most people.
David Cameron made a comment recently about a certain benefit and complained that the majority of the benefits were being claimed by immigrants and mentioned Poland in particular.   He was immediately criticised by the Polish Prime Minister for his views, but why?   There are about 28 members of the EU but Poland was responsible for claiming 41 per cent of those total benefits so was he right or wrong to state the obvious?
Immigrants work in the UK and yet they are entitled by EU law to claim benefits for children who still live in their native country.  To use Poland again as an example, when the recession hit the UK many Poles began unemployed and returned to Poland to live and they then went to the Polish Benefit offices to sign on there.    The Polish government then advised them not to sign on in Poland and to continue to claim benefits from the UK as the benefits were higher in the UK than in Poland.     I didn't believe that at first until I looked it up and found it to be true.
Many of the fraudulent claims for benefits were made by immigrants too, but I don't suppose you will find these statistics anywhere.
There are obvious flaws in the EU and as other countries have shown they want less but better say from the EU while having more say in matters that affect their own country.


 
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 01:52:56 pm
Quote
It's rather condescending to say or even think that the 27.49 per cent of the population who voted for UKIP are misguided.

Actually, Hugo, it wasn't even close to 27.49% who voted, as the turnout was - on average - around 31% and of course only those of eligible age are voters, which reduces the total figure to about 6% of the  population, which is a little more than the estimated readership of the DFM, BTW,  or about a 9% share of the total possible vote.

Quote
If anyone thinks that the present levels of immigration and benefit payments are sustainable then they should wake up to the real world.

Well, Hugo, as you suggest further in, statistics are flexible in what they can be used to prove, so unless we have an absolutely unimpeachable source of information regarding both benefits and immigration I'm unsure how you can make that assertion. What sources seem to be reliable suggest the opposite. And your concern about benefits - however laudable - doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion.

I do have to say, however, that I love the way you rate the DFM readers as worse than "racists, fascists or nazis"  WWW  WWW WWW

Quote
It seems that anyone who expresses concerns over these matters is deemed a racist, fascist, nazi or even a reader of the DFM

Quote
David Cameron made a comment recently about a certain benefit and complained that the majority of the benefits were being claimed by immigrants and mentioned Poland in particular.

You're correct, but there's a little more to the story. Firstly, UK residents who go for work to any other EU country can claim in exactly the same way for their children living here. That's because this is part of an EU-wide policy, so unless and until we know exactly how much is flowing toward us from UK nationals in the EU, we can't get a clear picture.

But the other factor is the amount.  At most, it's estimated to be no more than £50m per year. Which, by way of comparison, is fifteen times less than the government lost (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/01/royal-mail-undervaluing-taxpayer-cable) when they virtually gave away the Royal Mail. In another comparison it's roughly 2% of what the average government department spends on envelopes per year. So in those contexts is £50m really that big a deal?

It's certainly not when you look at what Osborne has given to his millionaire pals (http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014/02/06/enough-of-the-cost-of-benefits-what-do-subsidies-to-higher-rate-taxpayers-cost/).  "Something like £29 billion of tax relief is given to the higher rate tax payers of this country each year.  That sum is shared by about 4.4 million people. That’s £6,695 each."

To be fair, Hugo, I think you have the wrong target in your sights.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2014, 01:54:34 pm
The issue of how crowded the country is getting is a very valid one, I think. The Uk currently has a Population Density of 256 people per square kilometre - this compares with an EU average of 116.

At what point is the UK too full to accept any more people? B2R, I'm interested to know - where would you draw the line?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/population/data/main_tables)

The population density is not dangerously high, several countries in the world are higher, including Belguim and Holland. This isn't a reason to restrict immigration, which is FALLING anyway.
The figure of 256 is for the UK as a whole, I understand the figure for England is far higher, 411 I think, which is higher than practically every other EU country. How high can it get before peoples' quality of life starts to suffer?

You mention immigration is falling - I dont think that's correct - this recent article shows immigration increased by 35,000 to 212,000 last year:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/22/net-migration-uk-212000-final-quarter-2013 (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/22/net-migration-uk-212000-final-quarter-2013)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 01:57:45 pm
Quote
The figure of 256 is for the UK as a whole, I understand the figure for England is far higher, 411 I think, which is higher than practically every other EU country. How high can it get before peoples' quality of life starts to suffer?

I'm pretty sure that the UK population of about 65m is higher than almost all EU countries in comparison with out total land area.  But changes to the EU have to be made because I suspect cultural and social structures are the areas which will suffer most. Last time we were in London the only native English speaker we encountered was the taxi driver. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2014, 02:02:57 pm
It's certainly not when you look at what Osborne has given to his millionaire pals (http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2014/02/06/enough-of-the-cost-of-benefits-what-do-subsidies-to-higher-rate-taxpayers-cost/).  "Something like £29 billion of tax relief is given to the higher rate tax payers of this country each year.  That sum is shared by about 4.4 million people. That’s £6,695 each."
So, everyone who earns over £31,866 (2014/15) is a millionaire?!

Incidentally, the author of that article is employed by Tax Research LLP - a Limited Liability Partnership. Handy for saving on your tax bill those LLPs are...
http://www.bakertilly.co.uk/publications/should-every-business-be-an-llp.aspx (http://www.bakertilly.co.uk/publications/should-every-business-be-an-llp.aspx)  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 02:08:14 pm
Quote
So, everyone who earns over £31,866 (2014/15) is a millionaire?!

Stop conflating points  :rage: And the UK has almost 350,000 Net Millionaires at the moment, each of whom got a tax break from Osborne. They'll be wondering where the next set of stirrups is coming from, at that rate  WWW WWW WWW
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2014, 02:43:20 pm
Quote
It's rather condescending to say or even think that the 27.49 per cent of the population who voted for UKIP are misguided.

Actually, Hugo, it wasn't even close to 27.49% who voted, as the turnout was - on average - around 31% and of course only those of eligible age are voters, which reduces the total figure to about 6% of the  population, which is a little more than the estimated readership of the DFM, BTW,  or about a 9% share of the total possible vote.

Quote
If anyone thinks that the present levels of immigration and benefit payments are sustainable then they should wake up to the real world.

Well, Hugo, as you suggest further in, statistics are flexible in what they can be used to prove, so unless we have an absolutely unimpeachable source of information regarding both benefits and immigration I'm unsure how you can make that assertion. What sources seem to be reliable suggest the opposite. And your concern about benefits - however laudable - doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion.

I do have to say, however, that I love the way you rate the DFM readers as worse than "racists, fascists or nazis"  WWW  WWW WWW


As I said before, you can make statistics fit whatever it is you believe in but whichever way you juggle your figures whether it is 27 or 9 per cent it cannot be denied that UKIP had more votes than the other parties so something fundamental is very wrong with the system.    In reality the Government have no more idea of how many immigrants are in this country than Joe Public has.
My concern about benefits  doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion. because that is a separate matter.
Benefits should be funded from money that is readily available and Cameron is trying to address that by capping benefits which is a step in the right direction.
Tax avoidance and tax evasion are two different things but both should be addressed and resources pumped into HMRC  to recover the missing Billions.    Will the Government pass Tax laws that make tax avoidance impossible?  We'll just have to wait and see.   It's not just the rich and famous who are guilty of tax avoidance either.  How many of us have had to call in a tradesman and asked the question "how much off for cash"  so many of us are guilty of fueling the black economy.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 28, 2014, 04:16:01 pm
They'll be wondering where the next set of stirrups is coming from, at that rate
You appear to have a very cliched and old-fashioned view of who Britain's millionaires are? In reality, I suspect a lot of them are just fairly ordinary people who have worked hard all their life to build up a business, for example. Contributing 45% of their income via taxation seems to me like they are certainly doing their bit to finance public services.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on May 28, 2014, 04:55:48 pm
I see the BNP lost both its seats. That is very good thing!
Beware statistics, Disraeli said there are Lies, damned lies and statistics.
 How do we increase the turnout....pay people to vote?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 05:49:42 pm
Quote
You appear to have a very cliched and old-fashioned view of who Britain's millionaires are? In reality, I suspect a lot of them are just fairly ordinary people who have worked hard all their life to build up a business, for example.

Well, I was joking, and if you take into account property valuations then I suspect there are many more than the figure quoted. On that basis there are quite a few in Llandudno. But they may have worked hard to build up a business; that's not the issue.  My point was simply that it's relatively easy to target the benefits system and bemoan the loss of a few millions, when the government is actively aiding the lifestyles of those who could easily afford to pay more in tax to redress the balance.

It's all a question of fairness and what sort of a society we want. When Hugo says "My concern about benefits  doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion. because that is a separate matter." I disagree, because the tax avoider or - even worse - the tax evader is denying the exchequer the money it needs to create a just and fair society.

I suspect we're seeing a society which is becoming divided by wealth in a way that we haven't seen for years. For the first time in a very long time more young folk are moving into rented accommodation than buying houses, and I suspect that marks the start of a distinctly two-tier culture. Landlords (the name itself a feudal epithet) have never had it so good, but there's a danger here: folk who live in rented accommodation may not feel truly invested in their local society. When that happens dissociation can follow and society - in the worst cases - can begin to fragment.

If that were to happen in a big way (extremely unlikely in the area, I know) then worrying about the benefit system will be the least of our concerns.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2014, 05:50:27 pm
Quote
How do we increase the turnout....pay people to vote?

Some European countries have made it illegal not to cast your vote.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Michael on May 28, 2014, 09:33:31 pm
  I have just spent around 10 mins reading the last few posts. I THINK I understand the various arguments but --- I must be ignorant. What does DFM stand for? And how or where do you read it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2014, 10:20:10 pm
Ian will explain better Mike as it's his favourite newspaper.     ;D       WWW


 :golf:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2014, 10:54:52 pm
Well, I've just heard on the BBC TV news that 30% of the Welsh population ADMITTED to being racially prejudiced in a survey.

Given that it is actually a criminal offence to be so, then I think we are going to have to urgently build a a massive amount of prisons to lock everyone up! 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 29, 2014, 07:03:27 am
 _))* _))* _))*

Quote
What does DFM stand for?

D= Daily, M=Mail.  I leave it to your imagination what the F stands for :-)))

Quote
30% of the Welsh population ADMITTED to being racially prejudiced in a survey. Given that it is actually a criminal offence to be so

It's not a criminal offence to be racially prejudiced. Thus far, Government hasn't started to regulate our thoughts and opinions, but give it time.  :o

To be honest, the structure  of that survey would need examining.  As Hugo says with stats, you can get any answers you want from a survey, depending on how you ask the questions.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 29, 2014, 12:16:35 pm
Quote
You appear to have a very cliched and old-fashioned view of who Britain's millionaires are? In reality, I suspect a lot of them are just fairly ordinary people who have worked hard all their life to build up a business, for example.

Well, I was joking, and if you take into account property valuations then I suspect there are many more than the figure quoted. On that basis there are quite a few in Llandudno. But they may have worked hard to build up a business; that's not the issue.  My point was simply that it's relatively easy to target the benefits system and bemoan the loss of a few millions, when the government is actively aiding the lifestyles of those who could easily afford to pay more in tax to redress the balance.

It's all a question of fairness and what sort of a society we want. When Hugo says "My concern about benefits  doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion. because that is a separate matter." I disagree, because the tax avoider or - even worse - the tax evader is denying the exchequer the money it needs to create a just and fair society.

I suspect we're seeing a society which is becoming divided by wealth in a way that we haven't seen for years. For the first time in a very long time more young folk are moving into rented accommodation than buying houses, and I suspect that marks the start of a distinctly two-tier culture. Landlords (the name itself a feudal epithet) have never had it so good, but there's a danger here: folk who live in rented accommodation may not feel truly invested in their local society. When that happens dissociation can follow and society - in the worst cases - can begin to fragment.

If that were to happen in a big way (extremely unlikely in the area, I know) then worrying about the benefit system will be the least of our concerns.

Excellent point, just look at the London riots
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 29, 2014, 01:26:41 pm

It's all a question of fairness and what sort of a society we want. When Hugo says "My concern about benefits  doesn't take into account the tax avoidance schemes which HMRC themselves estimate cost the UK over £20billion. because that is a separate matter." I disagree, because the tax avoider or - even worse - the tax evader is denying the exchequer the money it needs to create a just and fair society.

I suspect we're seeing a society which is becoming divided by wealth in a way that we haven't seen for years. For the first time in a very long time more young folk are moving into rented accommodation than buying houses, and I suspect that marks the start of a distinctly two-tier culture. Landlords (the name itself a feudal epithet) have never had it so good, but there's a danger here: folk who live in rented accommodation may not feel truly invested in their local society. When that happens dissociation can follow and society - in the worst cases - can begin to fragment.

If that were to happen in a big way (extremely unlikely in the area, I know) then worrying about the benefit system will be the least of our concerns.

Excellent point, just look at the London riots

I agree with Ian's and BTR's comments but don't just blame the rich and famous for tax avoidance because if anyone pays cash for work done for you without invoices etc then that person is equally as guilty of tax avoidance as a rich person even if it is on a much smaller scale.
Tax evasion is different and illegal and if the Government put resources into HMRC then the UK should reap the reward for it.
The Government create the laws so surely they have qualified people who can prevent any loopholes in the system so that companies like Goggle etc pay their fair share of taxes.
Will this government do anything to block these loopholes?  Probably not because they are Conservatives and have vested interests in large companies.  The laws do need serious reforming and very quickly too.
Another thing that really annoys me too is the lack of affordable housing for young local people.  When I was getting married 44 years ago building firms were building housing estates all over the North Wales area.  They were 1 or two or 3 bedroomed properties that young working couples could just about afford, but that situation no longer exists for young working couples.
All the new builds are massive overpriced properties and the fact that CCBC supposedly had a rule that 30 per cent of new build houses should be affordable is being exploited by building companies and there was an example in the NWWN last week of such exploitation.
 

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 29, 2014, 01:57:05 pm
The housing market has certainly lost all touch with economic reality in the last few years, making it very difficult for young families to buy a home. Of course, the upward pressure on house prices is primarily due to the UK's rapidly increasing population needing somewhere to live. Or did we think that  all of the people who've moved to the UK in the last decade would not need anywhere to live?  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 29, 2014, 02:36:07 pm
The housing market has certainly lost all touch with economic reality in the last few years, making it very difficult for young families to buy a home. Of course, the upward pressure on house prices is primarily due to the UK's rapidly increasing population needing somewhere to live. Or did we think that  all of the people who've moved to the UK in the last decade would not need anywhere to live?  :laugh:

Not only because of immigration it's increading though, more people are being born than are dying, not much you can do about that unless you want to do it the Chinese way!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Big Alan on May 29, 2014, 10:32:05 pm
FUKIP
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 29, 2014, 10:58:23 pm
To be honest, the structure  of that survey would need examining.  As Hugo says with stats, you can get any answers you want from a survey, depending on how you ask the questions.


Correct Ian, so to prove the point I have done some statistics and forecasts of my own, to evaluate the problem of archaic train toilets.
Here goes;

Using the average number of daily train users, multiplied by the number of toilet visits required.... and then multiplying that by 365 days a year.   You then take the mean average of rail commuters over the last 150 years, and divide the resulting grand total into the total track mileage in the UK.
You then strip out the mileage of track closed by Dr Beeching in 1963, and finally apply a 'poo absorption' factor, which I made up for a laugh.   Then you set that against a rising population gradient.
The resulting conclusion is quite worrying.
It clearly shows that by the year 2031, the entire UK train network will be 8 feet deep in human excrement.

Someone prove me wrong?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on May 29, 2014, 11:34:25 pm
was that including toilet paper?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 30, 2014, 06:47:40 am
Quote
It clearly shows that by the year 2031, the entire UK train network will be 8 feet deep in human excrement.
Someone prove me wrong?

 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 30, 2014, 07:44:11 am
Quote
Of course, the upward pressure on house prices is primarily due to the UK's rapidly increasing population needing somewhere to live. Or did we think that  all of the people who've moved to the UK in the last decade would not need anywhere to live?

Some would disagree (http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/house-prices/)

And I'm not entirely sure that the "UK's rapidly increasing population" is the main causal factor behind price rises. A decent semi could be bought in the mid-'70s for about £7000, whereas the same house would probably cost around £240000 now. Between 1976 and 1979 house prices doubled, and that couldn't be ascribed to immigration at all, since the UK population actually fell (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radstats.org.uk%2Fno095%2FRoss95.pdf&ei=rSOIU6cBg_A6lvGAwAo&usg=AFQjCNGPAN7WC_IlGFmzA052g9YZUfYSiA&bvm=bv.67720277,d.ZWU) during that period.

So it's extremely unlikely (if not simply wrong) that immigration forcing a demand for housing is responsible for the price rises.  This is essentially making the assumption - as did the Barker report - that more people can afford to buy and want houses than the building industry is providing. But the application of the basic rules of the free market economy to housing, where the central plank of price reduction becomes the increase of supply, overlooks the basic element behind that model: greed.

The main element identified in the Barker report causing a lack of affordable housing was land availability. But when land became available for building many large building companies bought it up then failed to develop it. Vast swathes of land stand empty and have done for years across the South of England as builders hold back from development to maximise their profits.

There're a few other issues, too: if the house price boom was caused by the UK's rapidly increasing population, then it's a reasonable question to ask why there are 635,000 homes standing empty in England (https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/increasing-the-number-of-available-homes/supporting-pages/empty-homes) alone. Part of the reason is the absurd rules regarding VAT. If property owners leave their houses empty for ten years, the cost of reinstating them and any associated building work is zero rated.  Even after a mere two years, the VAT costs plummet to just 5%.

Thus, there's no shortage of housing or land in the UK. There's a shortage of new-build, affordable housing, certainly, but that's not the same thing. Not only are building companies sitting on tracts of undeveloped land but when they do get permission to build, they will almost always attempt to impose 'variations' at crucial stages. Exactly that ploy has been tried recently in the local area, as a builder, with permission to develop land within a specified criteria started on the contract, then tried to vary its terms to build larger and more expensive houses. Why? Because they get more profit from larger builds.

There's part of me that wonders about the whole concept of land ownership. We like living in places we own, because we feel secure. But ought land or water be able to be owned as commodities? I often think about the four things we need as a species: Water, land, air and sun. They're not optional. So why should a few be able to own huge amounts of those resources and most have to pay through the nose for them? I'm not suggesting Communism, which in all its incarnations has failed to work. But perhaps we - as a society - need to address the question, because history suggests that it's not simply going to disappear.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 24, 2014, 11:18:29 am
Question Time in Llandudno:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0rUUghVYpk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0rUUghVYpk)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on June 24, 2014, 06:00:13 pm
I think one will find that house prices are being fuelled from the amount of foreign money buying up London property in particular.   Do a check on such as Islington which was the working man's home territory and now a millionaires paradise!   :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on November 05, 2014, 11:26:31 am
New EU members add £5bn to UK says research

Immigrants from the 10 countries which joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits, according to a new study.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on November 05, 2014, 12:24:14 pm
 $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on November 05, 2014, 12:40:42 pm
meanwhile the DFM goes with


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821151/Non-EU-migrants-State-costing-British-finances-120billion-1995.html#ixzz3ICHxe7I5 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821151/Non-EU-migrants-State-costing-British-finances-120billion-1995.html#ixzz3ICHxe7I5)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook]By contrast EU migrants since 2000 made a net contribution of £20billion

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821151/Non-EU-migrants-State-costing-British-finances-120billion-1995.html#ixzz3ICHxe7I5 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2821151/Non-EU-migrants-State-costing-British-finances-120billion-1995.html#ixzz3ICHxe7I5)
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook[/url]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on November 05, 2014, 01:32:54 pm
"By contrast, migrants from outside Europe – most of whom arrived from Commonwealth countries – cost the public finances almost £118billion and were a drain in each of the 17 years covered by the report."

This stood out for me.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2014, 02:28:25 pm
New EU members add £5bn to UK says research

Immigrants from the 10 countries which joined the EU in 2004 contributed more to the UK than they took out in benefits, according to a new study.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29910497)

I saw this on the ITV news today but personally I don't take too much notice of statistics as they can be manipulated  to suit someone's argument.   
Cameron was speaking on TV months ago and complained about the EU abusing a particular one of our benefits system and mentioned Poland in his speech and he was promptly attacked by the Polish Prime Minister.      Now, I'm no fan of Cameron but when you have 28 countries in the EU and Poland is claiming 41 per cent of our total benefits then perhaps Cameron has a valid point.
Also working tax credits were claimed by many people from Europe and a lot of the claims were fraudulent too but I don't think you'll get the info under the freedom of information act.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on November 11, 2014, 01:52:39 pm
EU court ruling backs curbs on 'benefit tourism'

The European Court of Justice has said member states are within their rights to refuse to give financial help to unemployed EU citizens who move to that country just to claim benefits.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30002138 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30002138)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Yorkie on February 04, 2015, 12:19:36 pm
Just watching PMQ's on TV, what a FARCE!   Is the Country really being run by this bunch of rowdy clowns?   
 :rage:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 04, 2015, 12:49:42 pm
Just watching PMQ's on TV, what a FARCE!   Is the Country really being run by this bunch of rowdy clowns?   
 :rage:

Don't forget, it's quite a few years now since Mr Cameron promised to eradicate 'Punch and Judy Politics'
It's worse than ever now.   This is why I have no time for any of them.

More worryingly. there was a cross section of young people invited onto a Radio 2 show the other day.
They are sickened and bored by politicians of every type, only one out of 8 have any intention of voting in future.
I know how they feel,   but the more vociferous amongst them were demanding change, via revolution!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on February 05, 2015, 01:35:13 pm
Ronnie Hughes in the daily post today ,saying the welsh gov have no confidence in local councils ,Ronnie the people haven,t any confidence in your shower .
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 05, 2015, 02:57:35 pm
A bit like the pot calling the kettle black  Norman
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 11, 2015, 12:36:29 pm
I received my first circular of the year and probably the first of many in the build up to the General Election.   It was from the ITV   MP of the year for 2013 and was called intouch by Guto Bebb.
I did spend some time reading the leaflet but after doing so wished that the paper would have been a lot softer and more absorbent so it could have been put to some good use.
Why don't politicians just say what they are going to do if they win the election rather than what the opposition have done, it's no wonder that people are disillusioned with them
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on February 11, 2015, 01:41:09 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2946800/Do-twiplets-dads-paternity-leave-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-believes-Miliband-s-bonkers-plan-proves-no-grasp-life-outside-bubble.html?offset=200&max=100&reply=76552235&jumpTo=comment-76552235 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2946800/Do-twiplets-dads-paternity-leave-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-believes-Miliband-s-bonkers-plan-proves-no-grasp-life-outside-bubble.html?offset=200&max=100&reply=76552235&jumpTo=comment-76552235)

More paternity leave

Good idea or bad idea>?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 11, 2015, 05:04:24 pm
If it comes in, it'll be too late for you to take advantage of it unfortunately,  but how is the small employer expected to cope with this proposed paternity leave?
Personally, I think that the leave of absence should be available to either parent depending on their personal circumstances but not both.   I do believe though that there are more important matters that all the parties should be focused on.

PS     I hope that your young baby is doing well and that you are not having too many sleepless nights at the moment!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 18, 2015, 11:32:14 am
Seems like CCBC isn't the only public body to make a horrendous mess of whatever it attempts:

"Poor design and chaotic management by the supposedly crack team at the Cabinet Office's Government Digital Service (GDS) left huge swathes of the British government in disarray, internal documents seen by the Register reveal. The documents confirm that GDS knew its flagship initiative to move all government websites under one roof, GOV.UK, was destroying useful online services and replacing them with trendily-designed webpages bereft of useful information.

One internal report is particularly damning. The Home Office Visa and Immigration site “transitioned [to GOV.UK] without a good understanding of users and needs ... there was quickly a flood of negative feedback ... coming from all directions,” an insider states for the record. The report details “a breakdown in fact checking described by more than one person as 'general chaos' and 'a total nightmare'.”

The disclosures paint a picture that contradicts the public image of supremely confident digital gurus modernising the British government's many websites, and making them more efficient. For all its vaunted skills in website design, GDS had a far poorer understanding of what the public actually needed than the relevant government departments did - this, according to GDS' own internal analysis.

At one stage ministers and Home Office press staff were put on alert for a rash of negative stories after the badly re-designed Visa and Immigration website left visiting notables unable to enter the UK. Irate users besieged call centres with complaints - "switchboards are melting", one insider wrote. Yet eight months later, GDS carried on as if nothing had happened, ploughing on with another “big bang” transition that saw more than 300 more domains move to the gov.uk übersite - creating possibly the most unpopular government web redesign ever yet undertaken.

The digital disaster was on such a scale that one BBC reporter speculated that the transition might be a sophisticated attempt to cripple the UK, and joked that perhaps the GDS worked for North Korea.

The internal documents seen by The Register raise questions over both the Cabinet Office’s strategy - of creating an untouchable “digital” Whitehall fiefdom in the shape of GDS - and the Cabinet Office's ability to manage and deliver Whitehall IT projects effectively.

The GDS was created to sprinkle a little fashionable “digital” magic over government online services, which had presumably not been digital enough before. The fact that it reported to Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude made the GDS politically untouchable, and it quickly assumed supremacy in the Whitehall IT jungle.

GDS carefully cultivated an attractive press narrative, focusing on friendly opinion columnists and political reporters – rather than the technical press, who tended to ask more detailed questions. Coverage was fawning. Civil servants across Whitehall needed to get up to speed with the new jargon fast – buzzwords such as “Agile methodology” and “platforms”. That, and GDS' prickly response to criticism, led one opposition source to describe the new agency as "cult-like”.

GDS' newcomer status was supposed to be a breath of fresh air. In fact, the digital gurus' lack of any skills or knowledge other than webpage design appears to have equipped them poorly for the tasks in hand. As we’ll see, GDS and the Cabinet Office failed to heed the warning signals from their own internal enquiry."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 18, 2015, 01:08:45 pm
I seem to recall that Mr Cameron called a special vote in the House of Commons a year or so ago, as he was desperate for the UK to arm the 'rebels' in Syria, fighting against the Govt.
He lost, and he was bitterly disappointed.

Fast forward one year, and these 'rebels' are now indulging in a murderous orgy of bloodlust throughout the area, and they are known as Islamic State.

Is it any wonder that we have such mistrust in the competence of our so called 'Leaders'?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 17, 2015, 01:02:33 pm
I see in today's news that UK unemployment has continued to fall, with the rate now down to 5.6%. Unfortunately, here in Wales, the rate is significantly higher at 6.2%, making it one of the worst performing areas of the UK. Why should this be?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-32346807 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-32346807)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 17, 2015, 03:20:50 pm
Probably the same reason that the further from London you are, the worse the stats are.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Michael on May 07, 2015, 10:24:28 am
  Fancy reading a true story with a bit of light relief for a change.
  In 1966 I was working for Barclays Bank in Kirkby, Lancashire. A very important general election was on. Candidates  Harold Wilson,  Labour of course and in a real heartland of labour support, Hyton in Merseyside which included Kirkby. An unrememboured Conservative. And the first attempt in politics, screaming Lord Sutch of the monster raving looney party.
  The result was an absolute foregone conclusion. Labour would win by an absolute landslide.
  But this particular constituency attracted a lot of interest because on that night labour were expected to win over the whole country, so Harold Wilson would that evening become Prime Minister. And he personally was up against something unheard of in politics, a monster raving looney. So the t.v. And press were all around in force.
  A few days before one of my bank colleagues asked me did I fancy being a teller at the count. He was into politics. I said o.k. After all I was paid something around a couple of quid, not bad for three hours work
 So off we go. The system was we were all in this large civic hall sat on the outside of a ring of tables. About 30 of us. On the inside siting or walking around were strong party members who were supposed to be keeping an eye on us tellers to see nothing funny going on. The ballot boxes were emptied on to the tables. All the tellers had supplies of ordinary pegs as used on washing lines in those days.  Some painted red, some blue, a few for Lord Sutch, I don't recall the colour. We sorted the papers for the candidates, when we had a fair number of shall we say Wilson we counted out 100 and put the appropriate coloured peg around them and threw the bunch of 100 into the middle of the table. Easy.
  But opposite the man siting on my right was an absolute idiot of a labour official. Probably tattoos smoking woodbines. I'm not being snobby, but you know the sort. They don't exist nowadays. And he was picking on every slightest mistake on the few Tory papers. "Hold on, hold on, I don't like that. It's got the cross slightly outside the box." Rejected.
  This went on hour after hour. The teller next to me was getting really fed up with him. He stage whispered to me "I've had enough. Watch this"  he counted 100 papers out for Wilson and slowly and most carefully reached across the table, picked up a BLUE peg put it around the papers and threw them on the table.
  And waited for the explosion of anger from the other side. Nothing. Not a diccky bird. After half a minute he stage whispered to me again "now what do I do?" I whispered back I hadn't a clue.
  And that was it. I laughed next day when all the newspapers headlines said Wilson had won by so many tens of thousands. Actually 100 of his votes had gone to the Tory who only managed about a thousand altogether.
Guaranteed true. I even got Lord Sutchs autograph.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 08, 2015, 08:42:00 am
David Jones (Conservative) won Clwyd West with an increased majority, pulling in 43.3% of the Vote.

Guto Bebb (Conservative) won Aberconwy, with an increased majority, pulling in 41.5% of the vote.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on May 09, 2015, 11:31:38 pm
i hope my ballot papper was not one of those you threw on to the Torey pile mike,I voted for Harold that election as he was my mp at the time, We were living in Prescot in a terraced house with no bathroom no hot running water, outside toilet, coal fire, it was rough. i wrote to him after getting no joy from the local council and within eight weeks we were rehoused. Never looked back. Good old Mr Wilson
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 10, 2015, 08:32:35 am
Nice guy - and very bright.

Here's some interesting - if depressing  - facts about the election:

0.8% more people voted Tory this time than in the last election, so how does that equate to them suddenly getting a majority of the seats in Parliament?

Meanwhile, Labour got 1.5% more votes than last time (up to 9,347,326), yet lost 26 seats.

UKIP got 3,881,129 votes (12.6% of the total) and got one seat.

The Lib Dems got 2,415,888 votes (just 7.9% of the total votes) and got 8 seats.

The SNP received 1,454,436 votes a 4.7% share and got 56 seats.

And the Greens got 3.8% of the total votes (1,157,613 in total) and also got just one seat.

That's the truly democratic effect of our lamentable FPTP voting system.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 10, 2015, 12:17:57 pm
Have to say I was very happy with the outcome of the election!  $good$   {}{}
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Big Alan on May 10, 2015, 02:55:14 pm
I'm sure us tourists will love that statement
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on May 10, 2015, 03:36:44 pm
Have to say I was very happy with the outcome of the election!  $good$   {}{}


I think it was a disaster and for the first time in my life I'm genuinely afraid of what the future holds!
The Scottish Referendum has deeply split the nation, God knows what the Euro one will do!
Farage will probably be PM in 5 years.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 10, 2015, 03:40:25 pm
Going into the coalition with the Tory Party certainly did the Lib Dems no favours.   It has backfired and cost them a lot of votes as well as any chance of proportional representation.
So it's business as usual, bonuses, tax avoidance and the occasional bit of sleaze and that's just the MP's.  For the rest of us we can expect cuts to everything apart from immigration.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on May 10, 2015, 04:20:43 pm
Going into the coalition with the Tory Party certainly did the Lib Dems no favours.   It has backfired and cost them a lot of votes as well as any chance of proportional representation.
So it's business as usual, bonuses, tax avoidance and the occasional bit of sleaze and that's just the MP's.  For the rest of us we can expect cuts to everything apart from immigration.



The Lib Dems were always going to pay a heavy price for going in with the Tories and they made doubly sure by their u-turn on tuition fees. I think it's a shame that both Clegg and Milliband had to fall on their swords instead of trying to rebuild after the battle, but that's modern politics for you. Ironically, judging by his resignation speech, Farage will probably be back after his Summer holidays!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 10, 2015, 04:29:12 pm
I'm sure that we haven't heard the last of Nigel Farage  as I'm sure that he'll have a lot to say when those boat people start heading for the UK from Italy and the other Mediterranean countries
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 10, 2015, 09:59:23 pm
Ian, you raise the perennial issue of FPTP Vs Proportional represntation.  It's a real toughie.

Whilst PR sounds fair, at least in theory,  in practise, there would be enormous numbers of towns and cities who had an MP imposed upon them, who came nowhere near a majority in that area.
For example,  following this recent election there would have been 93 UKIP Members of Parliament, all to be placed.... where??

 ?{}? ?{}? *&( *&(
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 11, 2015, 08:41:22 am
Quote
Whilst PR sounds fair, at least in theory,  in practise, there would be enormous numbers of towns and cities who had an MP imposed upon them, who came nowhere near a majority in that area.

I agree that's something that would need looking at.  However, if we introduced some sort of PR (there are many variants) we could first look to see how others do it and then - the natural process - alter the composition of Parliament.

People cling to the idea that they have a 'representative' in Parliament, but I'd question a few things.  How many, for instance, ever go to their MP with a problem? In our entire voting lives, we've only done it once, and that was through the redoubtable Elfyn Clwyd who was amazingly good and worked tirelessly no our behalf.

Some MPs are notable for their absence from their constituencies even, and the current system means most seem to vote for a Party rather than an individual, anyway which, combined with the possibility that 'your' MP might be a minister and therefore won't have time to see you or help you until pre-election time, you might even be better off with someone foisted on you by the system.

But the real problem is the party system. No single party has members who agree on all the policies and many only take the party line for fear of their jobs. We might well be better off returning to the representative idea and eliminating parties.  At one time voting slips didn't carry the name of the party, so you had to know something about the candidate prior to voting. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 11, 2015, 09:03:52 am
It has got too political nowadays.    Years ago we had good independent candidates who got voted in but they wouldn't stand a chance now unless they were affiliated to one of the main parties.
The present first past the post system doesn't reflect the views of the country but will never change because of the attitude of Labour and the Cons,
Germany has had proportional representation since 1949 and it doesn't seem to have done that country any harm so perhaps we could learn something from that system.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 11, 2015, 09:26:43 am
Quote
The present first past the post system doesn't reflect the views of the country but will never change because of the attitude of Labour and the Cons,

That's right, because it suits the big parties. But even Lab is now looking over its shoulder at what's happened in Scotland so I suspect there's more of a possibility now that things might change. What we need, of course, is for the smaller parties to take up the idea of peaceful protests in London.  Could help to focus the government's mind, such as it is.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 11, 2015, 11:10:05 am
Quote
Whilst PR sounds fair, at least in theory,  in practise, there would be enormous numbers of towns and cities who had an MP imposed upon them, who came nowhere near a majority in that area.

I agree that's something that would need looking at.  However, if we introduced some sort of PR (there are many variants) we could first look to see how others do it and then - the natural process - alter the composition of Parliament.

People cling to the idea that they have a 'representative' in Parliament, but I'd question a few things.  How many, for instance, ever go to their MP with a problem? In our entire voting lives, we've only done it once, and that was through the redoubtable Elfyn Clwyd who was amazingly good and worked tirelessly no our behalf.

Some MPs are notable for their absence from their constituencies even, and the current system means most seem to vote for a Party rather than an individual, anyway which, combined with the possibility that 'your' MP might be a minister and therefore won't have time to see you or help you until pre-election time, you might even be better off with someone foisted on you by the system.

But the real problem is the party system. No single party has members who agree on all the policies and many only take the party line for fear of their jobs. We might well be better off returning to the representative idea and eliminating parties.  At one time voting slips didn't carry the name of the party, so you had to know something about the candidate prior to voting.

I would love to go to my MP with a problem.....But I just cannot afford the air fare to Israel  :'(
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 11, 2015, 12:11:23 pm
I agree, as I think that most of the British public, outside the 'establishment',  do now, that the election system requires reform and some interesting points have been raised - and as said, none of the problems are insurmountable.

However, I have to say that " the redoubtable Elfyn Clwyd who was amazingly good and worked tirelessly no our behalf " is a view not held by all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 11, 2015, 05:51:44 pm
UKIP  has rejected Nigel Farage's resignation so it'll be interesting to see what he has to say now that Brussels has told the UK to accept some of the illegal migrants from Africa and the Middle East


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32696505 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32696505)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 12, 2015, 09:05:30 am
I would love to go to my MP with a problem.....But I just cannot afford the air fare to Israel  :'(
:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 12, 2015, 09:17:52 am
Nice guy - and very bright.

Here's some interesting - if depressing  - facts about the election:

0.8% more people voted Tory this time than in the last election, so how does that equate to them suddenly getting a majority of the seats in Parliament?

Meanwhile, Labour got 1.5% more votes than last time (up to 9,347,326), yet lost 26 seats.

UKIP got 3,881,129 votes (12.6% of the total) and got one seat.

The Lib Dems got 2,415,888 votes (just 7.9% of the total votes) and got 8 seats.

The SNP received 1,454,436 votes a 4.7% share and got 56 seats.

And the Greens got 3.8% of the total votes (1,157,613 in total) and also got just one seat.

That's the truly democratic effect of our lamentable FPTP voting system.
How many votes did the Conservatives get? You seem to have missed that one out.  ?{}?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 12, 2015, 10:49:28 am
This article is spot on!
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/im-a-proud-tory-but-with-the-left-this-belligerent-and-selfrighteous-is-it-any-wonder-that-so-many-of-us-are-shy-10236544.html?fb_action_ids=941757749179242&fb_action_types=og.shares (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/im-a-proud-tory-but-with-the-left-this-belligerent-and-selfrighteous-is-it-any-wonder-that-so-many-of-us-are-shy-10236544.html?fb_action_ids=941757749179242&fb_action_types=og.shares)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 12, 2015, 12:39:42 pm
Quote
How many votes did the Conservatives get? You seem to have missed that one out.

Unintentionally.  They got 2m more votes than Labour, and it makes an interesting comparison. Ukip got nearly 4m votes, and secured one MP. The entire system is skewed to favour Tory or Lab.

Quote
This article is spot on!

Well, it's primarily about university campuses and the ones who shout the loudest there are normally far left. But the assertions he makes are suspect in terms of generalisation. And the very name conservative harks back to the maintenance of the status quo, from a time when only the wealthy were allowed to vote to keep the wealthy in power.

It's sobering when you realise that it was less than a hundred years ago (1928) that ordinary (not wealthy) men and women were allowed the vote. We should keep Burke in mind.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 12, 2015, 01:04:00 pm
It will be interesting this time around to see how the Cons do on their own without the Lib Dems  allegedly "holding them back"
There are a lot of important issues coming up, but will they deal with them efficiently:-
Immigration
Tax avoidance
Benefit capping
NHS   etc  etc

Immigration            Cameron's "negotiating skills"  with Europe will be tested to the limit as last time he lost    26 - 2
Tax avoidance.        Don't expect anything here as it is their ilk that benefits from these loopholes
Benefit capping       No more excuses here to ensure a fairer society by ensuring that it pays to work
NHS                        What have the Cons ever done for the NHS apart from drip feeding sections of it to their Tory backers?     

There's a lot of work to be done and only time will tell if the Cons have conned the British public.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 12, 2015, 03:52:46 pm
Yes;  it's the NHS that concerns me most, I think.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 12, 2015, 04:24:09 pm
It will be interesting this time around to see how the Cons do on their own without the Lib Dems  allegedly "holding them back"
There are a lot of important issues coming up, but will they deal with them efficiently:-
Immigration
Tax avoidance
Benefit capping
NHS   etc  etc

Immigration            Cameron's "negotiating skills"  with Europe will be tested to the limit as last time he lost    26 - 2
Tax avoidance.        Don't expect anything here as it is their ilk that benefits from these loopholes
Benefit capping       No more excuses here to ensure a fairer society by ensuring that it pays to work
NHS                        What have the Cons ever done for the NHS apart from drip feeding sections of it to their Tory backers?     

There's a lot of work to be done and only time will tell if the Cons have conned the British public.   

It would pay to work if we had voted a party in that got rid of zero hour contracts and increased the minimum wage.
Benefits is a separate issue - and the only one in any way applicable to 'working' is JSA which is
£57.90 or £73.10 a week if you're over 25

NOBODY is working for as little as that so clearly it already pays to work.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 12, 2015, 04:42:36 pm
I agree with you about zero hours working and the minimum wage but benefits is an issue.    I don't mean JSA  where an able bodied person is actively seeking work but a benefit system that discourages people from seeking work when they can get more on benefits.   A system where people can go through all their adult life without a days work and still be entitled to an OAP.    A system that allows women to have a career out of getting pregnant and never paying anything into a system that the are happy to get the benefit from.
If Cameron can put a stop to that type of thing then the sooner he does it the better.   He's got no excuses now that the Cons have a majority so no more U turns and the like.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 12, 2015, 04:54:23 pm
How can you put a stop to it?

Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-expected-live-judge-slams-5682582 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-expected-live-judge-slams-5682582)

How are people to live if there is no work?  They have to scavenge for food or turn to crime.

People are going to die because of poverty not experienced in the last 70 years.

I don't want this done in my name.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 12, 2015, 05:52:03 pm
No one wants that type of thing but people should take responsibility where they can.  Housing benefit used to be paid directly to the landlord but now it doesn't and that creates a problem in itself if the people don't manage their own economy properly.
As for the number of children that they have , then that's up to the parents but don't expect others to pick up the bill.  My Grandparents had 12 children but then he worked all his life and didn't have the benefits or expectations that they have nowadays.
I don't want to see that type of poverty in my name either but I don't want to see people on benefits receiving more money than those who are in full time employment
At the opposite end of the scale,  if Cameron says anything about doing something about tax avoidance take it with a pinch of salt because it won't happen.    His cronies and supporters are too far entrenched in it to rock the boat
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 12, 2015, 06:08:30 pm
UK not bound by EU migrant quotas http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32705615 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32705615)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2015, 08:58:16 am
How can you put a stop to it?

Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-expected-live-judge-slams-5682582 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/how-expected-live-judge-slams-5682582)

How are people to live if there is no work?  They have to scavenge for food or turn to crime.

People are going to die because of poverty not experienced in the last 70 years.

I don't want this done in my name.
Other news articles quote the DWP as saying that Mrs Barker is currently in receipt of Benefits?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2015, 09:03:07 am
The Minimum Wage is an interesting issue. On the face of it, increasing it to, say, £10 an hour would produce massive benefits for those working at the lower end of the jobs market.

However, it's never quite that simple. As the price of employing staff rose, prices in shops/pubs/restaurants etc would have to rise to follow suit, because its not just the lowest paid that would receive a rise, the pay differential would have to be maintained up to Manager level and the cost of the pay increases would inevitably be passed on to the consumer.

The real question is, would an increase in the Minimum Wage produce enough of a net benefit to those receiving it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 13, 2015, 09:18:36 am
Quote
The Minimum Wage is an interesting issue. On the face of it, increasing it to, say, £10 an hour would produce massive benefits for those working at the lower end of the jobs market. However, it's never quite that simple.

I rend to agree. And the other side of the coin is that so long as a 'minimum' exists, employers have no incentive to pay deserving staff any more, so you get this curious situation where a huge number of staff are on minimum wage, then there's usually a large step up to the salaried staff and not a lot in between. I suspect the better solution is to raise income tax thresholds.

Quote
How can you put a stop to it? Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

I think intervention has to start a lot earlier than that. But I'd only ask one thing: is having a baby a right or a responsibility?

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2015, 09:25:52 am
Quote
The Minimum Wage is an interesting issue. On the face of it, increasing it to, say, £10 an hour would produce massive benefits for those working at the lower end of the jobs market. However, it's never quite that simple.

I rend to agree. And the other side of the coin is that so long as a 'minimum' exists, employers have no incentive to pay deserving staff any more, so you get this curious situation where a huge number of staff are on minimum wage, then there's usually a large step up to the salaried staff and not a lot in between. I suspect the better solution is to raise income tax thresholds.
Yes, I agree. I think the threshold for paying Income Tax should be around £15,000. It's essential that people feel rewarded for being in work.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: pkevin on May 13, 2015, 10:08:14 am
How about having a minimum wage banding ( May be 4 bands?) system where the minimum wage is based on a business profits.  This would mean that high profit big business would pay a higher rate of minimum wage and a small business would pay lower rate.  This would mean that a lot of people would be taken off the Tax Credit system and the money saved would be given to those on the lower rates, raising their income up. Any money left over could be good given to the NHS.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 13, 2015, 11:45:52 am
I think that there certainly needs to be some differentiation between Employers (based upon Employer group turnover?)  in order to have a fair system. Perhaps a potential problem could be that employees would gravitate towards the larger companies that pay the higher Minimum Wage rate?

The same theory goes for Business Rates, too. It would be good to see independent local businesses encouraged back onto the High Street by subsidised business rates.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 13, 2015, 12:24:09 pm
Quote
The Minimum Wage is an interesting issue. On the face of it, increasing it to, say, £10 an hour would produce massive benefits for those working at the lower end of the jobs market. However, it's never quite that simple.

I rend to agree. And the other side of the coin is that so long as a 'minimum' exists, employers have no incentive to pay deserving staff any more, so you get this curious situation where a huge number of staff are on minimum wage, then there's usually a large step up to the salaried staff and not a lot in between. I suspect the better solution is to raise income tax thresholds.

Quote
How can you put a stop to it? Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

I think intervention has to start a lot earlier than that. But I'd only ask one thing: is having a baby a right or a responsibility?
[/b]

If somebody has a baby that they can't afford. Do you think that baby should be taken off them at birth?
Because that has happened in the past. Indeed it was customary in some places at a time (Ireland not so long ago)
Or do you think that is barbaric and unjust?

Either way that's the choice. We either have a welfare system or children are removed.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 13, 2015, 12:34:43 pm
Quote
Either way that's the choice. We either have a welfare system or children are removed.

It's not the only choice.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 13, 2015, 01:38:50 pm
Please expand, I'm genuinely interested as I can't think of another way.

A young mother has a baby, Father has shot off nowhere to be seen. Said Mother has no family to support her, no job (or even minimum wage job still fits) ie not earning enough money to support a Child and pay bills.

What happens to this baby?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 13, 2015, 03:19:00 pm
I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're still assuming things start after the mother has given birth and a father's been on the scene - however briefly. But early intervention doctrines pre-suppose just that: intervention well before the situation you describe occurs. 

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 13, 2015, 03:30:52 pm
I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're still assuming things start after the mother has given birth and a father's been on the scene - however briefly. But early intervention doctrines pre-suppose just that: intervention well before the situation you describe occurs.

?????????   !!!!!!!!!!   ?????????      Ian,  that went WAY over my head!   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 13, 2015, 10:34:12 pm

Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

I don't understand the point as housing benefit is paid to the mother for the sole purpose of paying for part or all of the rent and how much she gets depends on her income and circumstances.  This housing benefit should then be paid to the landlord who has provided the accommodation that she has chosen to live in.
If she doesn't pay it over then she has created the problem herself and can't blame anyone else
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 14, 2015, 09:14:10 am

Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

I don't understand the point as housing benefit is paid to the mother for the sole purpose of paying for part or all of the rent and how much she gets depends on her income and circumstances.  This housing benefit should then be paid to the landlord who has provided the accommodation that she has chosen to live in.
If she doesn't pay it over then she has created the problem herself and can't blame anyone else

Agreed. Seems to me that for some people the other benefits they get can't be enough to live off so they are spending the housing benefit to live.
Pay it directly to the landlord and there would be no problems.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 14, 2015, 09:15:48 am
I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. You're still assuming things start after the mother has given birth and a father's been on the scene - however briefly. But early intervention doctrines pre-suppose just that: intervention well before the situation you describe occurs.

?????????   !!!!!!!!!!   ?????????      Ian,  that went WAY over my head!   


I think...... He's getting at contraception?? If so do you think it should be imposed in some way? Surely sex education and the like is a lot more advanced now than it was say 30 years ago?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 14, 2015, 10:40:38 am

Do you take the housing benefit away from the mother and put her and her babies out on the street?

I don't understand the point as housing benefit is paid to the mother for the sole purpose of paying for part or all of the rent and how much she gets depends on her income and circumstances.  This housing benefit should then be paid to the landlord who has provided the accommodation that she has chosen to live in.
If she doesn't pay it over then she has created the problem herself and can't blame anyone else

Agreed. Seems to me that for some people the other benefits they get can't be enough to live off so they are spending the housing benefit to live.
Pay it directly to the landlord and there would be no problems.

I agree with both your points completely and can't understand why the rules were changed when they stopped paying benefits to the Landlord.     Paying the housing benefit to the Landlord direct would prevent  anyone being tempted to use the house benefit for a purpose other than what it is intended and would ensure that they maintain a roof over their head which should be their No1 priority.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 14, 2015, 11:23:56 am
If you can possibly stand it, try watching 'Benefit's Street' for an education into the mind-set and standards of some people on benefits.

Whilst it's made for television, it does reflect attitudes and beliefs of the benefit recipients and is pretty close to the truth in some quarters. 

Having spent several decades working in an inner city, I can assure you that there are legions of third - fourth generation unemployed who consider unemployment and benefit their right and the norm; teenage girls who deliberately get pregnant to get given a flat of their own, people who have more children for the child allowances, the list is endless.

The last clip of the programme I saw was that of a young man who having received his benefit, rolled a cannabis joint and went of to a sun tan parlour to spend time under sun lamps topping up his tan......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 14, 2015, 12:46:34 pm
Paying the housing benefit to the Landlord direct would prevent  anyone being tempted to use the house benefit for a purpose other than what it is intended and would ensure that they maintain a roof over their head which should be their No1 priority.
I agree. I suppose it could also be argued that Housing Benefit just results in artificially inflated rental rates that only benefit the Landlord - just playing devil's advocate for a second, what would happen if it were scrapped altogether?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 14, 2015, 02:10:15 pm
All unemployed people and those on low wages would be homeless

UNLESS landlords put down rent to affordable rates.

£58 is the weekly 'pay' for jobseekers allowance
£130 is the weekly 'pay' for working mothers on Maternity leave

rent would have to be much lower than both of these to allow them to pay rent and stay alive

no more than £30-35 a week.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 14, 2015, 02:50:52 pm
Low rents would mean no landlords would buy properties to rent out as there would be no profit in it. Also less money to spend on maintenance.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 14, 2015, 03:02:12 pm
It's getting the balance right that's always the problem. Good landlords are not hard to find and there's good money in renting - probably a little too much, in fact.  I suspect both business and domestic landlords need to become a little less grasping.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 14, 2015, 03:03:23 pm
Which is why minimum wage HAS to match minimum rents.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 14, 2015, 06:44:50 pm
If you can possibly stand it, try watching 'Benefit's Street' for an education into the mind-set and standards of some people on benefits.

Whilst it's made for television, it does reflect attitudes and beliefs of the benefit recipients and is pretty close to the truth in some quarters. 

Having spent several decades working in an inner city, I can assure you that there are legions of third - fourth generation unemployed who consider unemployment and benefit their right and the norm; teenage girls who deliberately get pregnant to get given a flat of their own, people who have more children for the child allowances, the list is endless.

The last clip of the programme I saw was that of a young man who having received his benefit, rolled a cannabis joint and went of to a sun tan parlour to spend time under sun lamps topping up his tan......

I haven't seen that programme but I saw one on the the food banks that are all around the country.  The person they highlighted was a pretty young single woman with a child.   Her make up was perfect, her blonde hair recently done with streaks added and her nails had been manicured.   It was a poor advert for the desperate and deserving people who now depend on these food banks as it was obvious what she was choosing to spend her benefit money on.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 04, 2015, 04:52:00 pm
Royal Mail stake to be sold off, George Osborne announces

The government's remaining 30% stake in the Royal Mail is to be sold and £3bn cut from government spending this year, George Osborne has said.
The chancellor said the Royal Mail shares - currently valued at £1.5bn - would be sold when ministers could be sure they would get value for money.
The £3bn in cuts come ahead of further reductions to be announced in July.
Labour accused Mr Osborne of "ripping up" his long term economic plan by springing the announcement on MPs..............

MORE DETAILS...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33004664 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33004664)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 04, 2015, 09:49:23 pm
Quote
he chancellor said the Royal Mail shares - currently valued at £1.5bn - would be sold when ministers could be sure they would get value for money.


 _))* _))* _))* _))* _))* _))* _))* _))*

And they have such a sterling record in that department, don't they?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 05, 2015, 02:53:56 pm
Government cuts: How will George Osborne's £3bn in new cuts affect you?
George Osborne ordered government departments to find another £4.5bn in savings this year, most of which will come from spending cuts.
He said he'd claw £1.5bn back by selling off public assets - including the 30% share of Royal Mail we still own after the government's botched privatisation of the 500-year-old business.

The other £3bn has to come from 'savings' to government spending.
But which departments will be hit the hardest - and what will they cut to save the money?
Here's a run down of what we know about George Osborne's new spending cuts.

MORE DETAILS...http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/government-cuts-how-george-osbornes-5828042 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/government-cuts-how-george-osbornes-5828042)


Despite the seriousness of this subject the following stood out...... :D   "One project that will almost certainly be out is Lib Dem Don Foster's pet project, a £250,000 research project on how to deal with the mess caused by urban (Sea) gulls."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 12, 2015, 05:21:28 pm
North South divide won't increase with Cardiff's £1bn 'City Deal' says Welsh Secretary

The Cardiff 'City Deal' should not increase the North South divide and alienate people in North Wales, says Welsh Secretary Stephen Crabb.

The capital region could gain from an estimated £1bn deal which has been heralded as a potential game changer for the South East Wales regional economy.
But Stephen Crabb said potential for Cardiff to become the first city in Wales to get the deal would not “necessarily” add to an impression more money was being spent in the South than the North.

The recently re-elected Welsh Secretary said North Wales had closer economic relationships with the North of England than Cardiff and should “hook” into the Northern Powerhouse projects there.

In an interview with the Daily Post at the Wales Office he said: “We have been talking for centuries about how North and South Wales could be better connected together.

“Anything that strengthens the North of England is of benefit to North Wales and I am very ambitious to see North Wales hook in to all that exciting development that’s going on around the Northern Powerhouse.”
Mr Crabb didn’t rule out the case for another 'City Deal' in Wales saying “there would be no reason why it would be the last if it is done successfully.”

Betsi: "I don't have any criticisms of the Welsh Government"
He also refused to criticise the Welsh Government’s handling of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board saying it was “appropriate” to place the board in Special Measures.
Mr Crabb said he hadn’t had any “direct conversations” with prime minister about the troubled health board but that Mr Cameron “is aware” as is Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt.
He said: “I think the health board itself should have taken action much sooner, and should have published the (Tawel Fan) report much sooner.

“But I don’t have any criticisms of Welsh Government, I think the Welsh Health Minister (Mark Drakeford) has responded appropriately, and I think we have all got to start looking to the future and looking to see some improvements there in the health board and the delivery of services.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-south-divide-wont-increase-9439266 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-south-divide-wont-increase-9439266)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 12, 2015, 07:17:48 pm
Thousands of North Wales jobs on the line in council merger plans warns union chief

UP to 4,000 workers in North Wales could lose their jobs in council merger plans set to be unveiled next week, union officials have warned.
On Thursday, it is expected that the Welsh Government will reveal the “merger map” for local government reorganisation at the Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) conference.
Dominic MacAskill, Unison’s head of Local Government in Wales, said 15,000 workers in Wales could ultimately face redundancy including around 4,000 in North Wales in the massive shake-up.

MORE...http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/thousands-north-wales-jobs-line-9445582 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/thousands-north-wales-jobs-line-9445582)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 16, 2015, 06:58:29 pm
Radical council shake-up in Wales could see number of local authorities slashed from 22 to just eight or nine

"In North Wales, under the two-council model Flintshire, Denbighshire and Wrexham could merge, leaving Gwynedd, Anglesey and Conwy as a single authority.

In the alternative North Wales proposal, Denbighshire would merge with Conwy, Gwynedd would merge with Anglesey and Flintshire would merge with Wrexham."

Full article....http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/radical-council-shake-up-wales-could-9468082 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/radical-council-shake-up-wales-could-9468082) $angry$

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2015, 09:21:01 am
"Gwynedd, Anglesey and Conwy as a single authority"

That would certainly be a mega authority. Imagine the arguing over where the HQ would be!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2015, 10:24:04 am
Especially now that Conwy Council has acquired the new offices in Colwyn Bay
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: bigbadhenry on June 17, 2015, 11:00:31 am
Radical council shake-up in Wales could see number of local authorities slashed from 22 to just eight or nine

"In North Wales, under the two-council model Flintshire, Denbighshire and Wrexham could merge, leaving Gwynedd, Anglesey and Conwy as a single authority.

In the alternative North Wales proposal, Denbighshire would merge with Conwy, Gwynedd would merge with Anglesey and Flintshire would merge with Wrexham."

Full article....http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/radical-council-shake-up-wales-could-9468082 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/radical-council-shake-up-wales-could-9468082) $angry$

Well we might get shot of the dead wood that try to run CBCC
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Greyhound on June 17, 2015, 11:09:26 am
For those looking forward to getting rid of the 'dead wood' on CCBC, I can assure you that a resurrection of Gwynedd (with Coleyn Bay, Abergele and Kinmel Bay etc. as new additions), would be a disaster for our area.

Before 1996, Llandudno and Conwy were used as cash cows by the Plaid Cymru and other assorted nationalist nut cases down in Caernarfon, who would plough money into the most God-forsaken hamlet down the Llyn or in Meirionnydd rather than spend any money on what they perceived as 'English' areas.

You see similar complaints from Bangor even now about the disparity in council spending. You may relish getting rid of Conwy, but the alternative is infinitely worse. I'd rather we remained masters in our own house, but if not, I think Denbighshire is a far better partner and more demographically and culturally similar.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 17, 2015, 11:25:11 am
Local Government Minister Leighton Andrews has revealed two options for the new local government map which would see eight or nine councils in Wales

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-council-merger-could-9470921 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-council-merger-could-9470921)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 17, 2015, 11:57:19 am
Live...... reaction as Leighton Andrews proposes radical shake-up of Welsh councils

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/live-reaction-leighton-andrews-proposes-9470514 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/live-reaction-leighton-andrews-proposes-9470514)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 17, 2015, 01:10:32 pm
I think Denbighshire is a far better partner and more demographically and culturally similar.
I agree.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 17, 2015, 06:09:48 pm
Plans to cut Welsh councils cause split in north
North Wales council chiefs are split over radical plans to carve the region up into two or three authorities as unions warn of job cuts and privatisation.
MORE...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33168003 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-33168003)


Case for fewer councils is 'compelling', says minister
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-33161855 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-33161855)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 23, 2015, 01:55:13 pm
 &shake&    &shake&

Welsh Government refuses to say how much top managers are being paid to leave after top-level restructure

The Welsh Government has refused to release details of redundancy packages paid to three of its most senior civil servants who are leaving following a top-tier management restructuring exercise.
All three of the departing senior managers are designated as Directors-General and head up departments. Those leaving are Gareth Jones, Director-General Natural Resources; June Milligan, Director-General, Local Government and Communities; and Michael Hearty, Director-General, Finance and Corporate Services
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-government-refuses-say-how-9507115 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-government-refuses-say-how-9507115)

Four out of five Welsh Government staff classed as managers
Almost four out of five of staff working for the Welsh Government are designated as managers, astonishing new figures have revealed.
The statistics, released to the Welsh Conservatives following a written question from leader Andrew RT Davies, show that of the 5,424 employed by the Government as of March this year, 4,189 – or 77% – were classed as managers.
These ranked from those at management band 3 through to 25 staff at Senior Civil Service 2 level, earning from £82,900 to £162,500.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/four-out-five-welsh-government-2050794 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/four-out-five-welsh-government-2050794)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 24, 2015, 08:22:13 am
Quote
The statistics... show that of the 5,424 employed by the Government as of March this year, 4,189 – or 77% – were classed as managers.

Interesting.  So it requires 4189 managers to manage 1200 employees?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on June 24, 2015, 10:51:32 am
 :o

Odd I have 'manager' somewhere in my title, and I rarely manage anyone other than myself or a handful of people on a project occasionally. But this is because we are a private company and the manager name on my e mail or on contract specs is appealing to clients.

Who are the Welsh Government trying to impress?

Surely being public their job titles should be as 'honest' as possible
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 24, 2015, 11:47:03 am
Quote
Who are the Welsh Government trying to impress?
Not the tax payer............. $angry$ $angry$     this is a farce, and they want more powers..........

With future major cuts in spending.....the NHS in Wales .....and reducing the number of councils...........their MANAGEMENT does not inspire confidence.     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2015, 01:15:35 pm
This 'Manager' title is something that rankles with me, more and more, every day.

The Pier has 'managers', every business in town has 'managers' .....   
I was told when I became a 'Manager' that the word comes from the latin 'Mana' which means 'hand'
Therefore, it means that you have to keep a grip on what is in your sphere of responsibility, and handle it.
This training stood me in good stead, and I never forgot those words.

In my experience, it was always associated with me having a team of people who I could call upon to perform most things... but I knew I was ultimately responsible.

But these days, everyone I ever come across who has the badge saying 'Manager',  all I hear is.... 'Oh sorry, I'll let the boss know',  or 'Oh sorry, thanks for the feedback, there's nothing I can do'......   or worst of all .... ''Why don't you report this to those above me?, I'm only the manager!!!''

I actually said to a 'Manager' just the other day.... 'You have the title Manager Sir, is it unreasonable for me to expect YOU to manage this query?'

A major bug-bear of mine, and Ian.... your reference to the top heavy statistics blew me away.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 25, 2015, 08:32:12 pm
New North Wales AM will not give up Conwy Council role

A new AM for North Wales has said she will not give up her role as a county councillor – but will give away over £13,000 of her earnings to charity.

Janet Haworth was drafted in by the Conservative party to take the regional seat in the Welsh Assembly, replacing Antoinette Sandbach who was elected MP for a constituency in Cheshire.

Ms Haworth, a grandmother of six, is currently juggling three political roles – as a Conwy county councillor, Llandudno town councillor and an AM, bringing home a combined pay cheque of £67,691.
Despite only having 62% attendance at Conwy meetings, the AM has said she has no intention of stepping down from any of the local roles – in case she doesn’t get reelected to the Assembly.

During an exclusive interview with the Daily Post just three weeks after she stepped into Cardiff Bay, Ms Haworth said she would be donating her £13,300 Conwy council wage to a local young persons’ charity.
Ms Haworth wouldn’t name the charity but said council officers were looking into whether she could pay the cash for her 10 months as an AM through payroll giving.

The AM, who was on a pre-booked holiday in Scilly when she was called upon to take up the seat, confirmed she was closing the Llandudno guest house she runs with her partner Dennis.

Ms Haworth said she had considered standing down from the local councils but wouldn’t be doing so just in case she didn’t get voted back into the Assembly at next year’s elections.
She said: “There is less than a year to run before we face elections here in the Welsh Assembly. There is at least another year after that of county council, so if I was not to be reelected here I would continue with my county council seat – and given this latest plan from the minister (redrawing of the local government map) it could be longer than that.
“So it didn’t make any sense to disrupt things for what is effectively 10 months.
“Now if I was to be reelected here that’s then a different scenario....yes, I would then stand down from both councils.”

Ms Haworth, who is not yet on Twitter or Facebook, defended her county council attendance record saying councillors didn’t have to attend every meeting but could “prioritise” things they are interested in – saying licensing was her main one. She said the town council was “relatively happy” about her only attending meetings such as community and tourism and full council.

Involved in politics for around 25 years, Ms Haworth said the Welsh Government needed to prioritise improvements to the rail and A55 as it was damaging and a “poor introduction” for tourists.
She also highlighted the need for more clarity to help people understand which Government was responsible for what in Wales, and called for a full independent review of the Welsh NHS to see if it was fit for purpose following the decision to place Betsi Cadwaladr into special measures.

The Welsh Local Government Association’s rules say: “An individual member is entitled to forego all or part or their basic/senior salary under the Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011, but to do so must inform the proper officer of the council in writing.”
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-north-wales-am-not-9527857 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/new-north-wales-am-not-9527857)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 25, 2015, 10:07:50 pm
Quote
Ms Haworth wouldn’t name the charity

Interesting...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on June 25, 2015, 10:57:55 pm
Quote
Ms Haworth wouldn’t name the charity

Interesting...


Maybe she's stalling to give herself time to set one up and get it registered?  WWW
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 26, 2015, 12:49:08 am


Ms Haworth said she had considered standing down from the local councils but wouldn’t be doing so ...
“Now if I was to be reelected here that’s then a different scenario....yes, I would then stand down from both councils.”


So.  if she is elected, she will stand down????   Errm.... is there any point in voting for the daft bint then? 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 26, 2015, 08:39:08 am
Quote
Maybe she's stalling to give herself time to set one up and get it registered?  WWW

Wonderful!  _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 26, 2015, 09:18:32 am
If she doesn't want to commit the time to effectively perform the town and county councillor roles, then she should step down and let someone else do it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 29, 2015, 05:03:33 pm
The European elite has treated Greece with disdain, warns leading Welsh critic of single currency.

Thousands of Welsh jobs
A Welsh Government spokesman said: “Clearly, we hope that Greece remains within the eurozone and the EU. The EU is Wales’s most important export market, and thousands of jobs in Wales are dependent on exports to countries in the Eurozone. Were Greece forced to leave , the implications would depend greatly on the wider context – namely the political and economic fall-out in Greece and other member states.

“The effect could be very destabilising. We will be following the negotiations closely.”
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/european-elite-treated-greece-disdain-9549963 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/european-elite-treated-greece-disdain-9549963)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 29, 2015, 07:31:10 pm
I fear the issue with Greece, coupled with the terrorist threat overseas may well lead to retrenchment on the part of the UK Government. Odd; I never thought I'd hear of the UK closing its borders, but I now suspect that day could come.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 30, 2015, 09:02:27 am
The European elite has treated Greece with disdain, warns leading Welsh critic of single currency.

Thousands of Welsh jobs
A Welsh Government spokesman said: “Clearly, we hope that Greece remains within the eurozone and the EU. The EU is Wales’s most important export market, and thousands of jobs in Wales are dependent on exports to countries in the Eurozone. Were Greece forced to leave , the implications would depend greatly on the wider context – namely the political and economic fall-out in Greece and other member states.

“The effect could be very destabilising. We will be following the negotiations closely.”
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/european-elite-treated-greece-disdain-9549963 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/european-elite-treated-greece-disdain-9549963)
Greece should never have been allowed to join the eurozone in the first place. Their economy is a basket case, I don't blame the Germans for getting tired of constantly bailing them out. At least John Major had the sense to keep us out of it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 30, 2015, 09:46:01 am
Glad it is not just me who thinks that Dave, I always wondered why the weak countries were allowed in, they just suck money from the strong countries, madness!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 30, 2015, 11:51:18 am
Anyone who thinks the UK is a 'strong' economy is deluding themselves.

Take a proper look at the debt mountain which has DOUBLED since 2011, and is now a physical impossibility to repay.
See how Govt borrowing actually increases every year, and that is whilst interest rates are at an all time LOW.

Out government, probably more than any other, has been printing fictitious cash to keep the country artificially afloat and it is simply a recipe for disaster.
The financial 'crash' in 2008 was never really allowed to happen, few people even noticed it.
But if they HAD allowed it to happen, we could now have been on the real road to recovery, not this 'Chinese water torture' of more cuts, more borrowing, more delaying the inevitable.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 30, 2015, 12:39:21 pm
Quote
Anyone who thinks the UK is a 'strong' economy is deluding themselves.

You mean, Osborne isn't telling the truth?  :o :o :o

The economy - in terms of the theoretical, somewhat ethereal magical banking economy -  is probably pretty strong, because strong economies which have a cluster of huge banks trading through them rely heavily on debt to keep themselves strong. Don't know why, but they do. The 'Chinese water torture' of more cuts is down to the composition of the government. The Tories prefer wealth to be concentrated in very few hands and they cut for the sake of reducing government - not for any sound fiscal reason. The biggest problem is that no one in the world actually has a sound grasp of international macro economics.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 30, 2015, 01:48:09 pm
I bet that Greece would happily swap economies with the UK!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 08, 2015, 05:51:19 pm
Budget reaction 2015: North Wales families will be hit hard by welfare cuts, experts claim

North Wales families and young people will be some of the hardest hit by welfare cuts outlined in today’s budget, experts have claimed.
Chancellor George Osborne said he was introducing a plan for “working people” as he set out the first Conservative-only budget in almost 20 years.

Repeating the slogan “one nation” throughout his over an hour long speech Mr Osborne set out plans to make £12bn of welfare cuts over the next three years.
The Chancellor – who only dedicated one sentence to Wales – cut housing benefit for most people aged under 21, slashed the benefit cap to £20,000, and limited the tax and universal credits to just two children.
This means any third child born after April 2017, unless they are twins or triplets, won’t get support.

MORE...http://www.dailypost.co.uk/incoming/budget-reaction-2015-north-wales-9616546 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/incoming/budget-reaction-2015-north-wales-9616546)


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on July 08, 2015, 11:04:21 pm
I thought what an excellent budget for a change. I also believe the moon is made of cheese, Father Christmas will bring me a new play station for Christmas and i will win the open next year.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 09, 2015, 09:32:02 am
The Chancellor – who only dedicated one sentence to Wales – cut housing benefit for most people aged under 21, slashed the benefit cap to £20,000, and limited the tax and universal credits to just two children.
Good to see the introduction of a Living Wage, that will make a real difference in the local area.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 09, 2015, 12:23:54 pm
The Chancellor – who only dedicated one sentence to Wales – cut housing benefit for most people aged under 21, slashed the benefit cap to £20,000, and limited the tax and universal credits to just two children.
Good to see the introduction of a Living Wage, that will make a real difference in the local area.

Indeed it will,  it will push up the price of all the coffee's and meals that you buy!!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2015, 01:01:12 pm
A lot was said last year about Tax avoidance  and multi international companies not paying their fair proportion of tax but I didn't see much about it in yesterday's budget.
By coincidence yesterday's Daily Mirror revealed that the Osborne firm sold land to an offshore outfit and the deal avoids £2M in tax.  The transaction was between a British Virgin Island Company,  Osborne and Little Ltd and The Osborne Discretionary Trust.
Tax avoidance schemes will not be tackled seriously while people like these well off politicians are in power and yet Cameron lambasted Jimmy Carr for his part in Tax avoidance but made no comment against his fellow cronies who are equally guilty of the same practise.
The often repeated quotation  "One nation"   stinks a bit
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 09, 2015, 02:18:11 pm
Very true, Hugo.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 09, 2015, 05:46:55 pm
Conwy councillors slam Welsh Government's 'crazy' merger proposals

Proposals by the Welsh Government to merge local authorities in North Wales have been blasted by councillors as “crazy, uncosted, undemocratic and badly timed”, as a row over local government reorganisation intensifies.

Conwy councillors at Bodlondeb today voted unanimously to send a strongly worded letter to Public Services Minister Leighton Andrews AM, after he asked authorities for feedback on the plans.
Councillors also voted to use the council magazine Bulletin and social media to consult the public.

The Welsh Government said no final decisions have been taken on council mergers.

Conwy’s attack comes after the Welsh Government published a preferred merger map just before the Welsh Local Government Association’s annual conference in June.
Conwy favours the status quo or a possible merger with Denbighshire, as recommended by the Williams Commission.
MORE....http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conwy-councillors-slam-welsh-governments-9624241 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conwy-councillors-slam-welsh-governments-9624241)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 09, 2015, 09:03:16 pm
North Wales must be part of the Northern Powerhouse

Business leaders say North Wales must be part of the Northern Powerhouse proposal that is bidding to transform the economy of the North of England.
The Northern Powerhouse concept has been created to help link the North’s major cities into a collective force that could help tackle the economic gulf with London and the South East.
Former Welsh Secretary David Jones has already said North Wales needs to be part of the strategy and recently hit out on the topic - claiming the region had been ‘shunted into the sidings’.
Now business leaders in the region have called for the area to be involved in the proposals to ensure it is not left out of the loop.
“The population of North Wales at the last census was 688.000, that of Hull 256,000.

“In North Wales we need to be part of the discussions on HS2, we need to be part of the discussions on all infrastructure plans made across the Powerhouse.

“One key reason why is that much of the industry in the North West has a vested interest in ensuring the transport infrastructure in North Wales is fit for purpose to ensure efficient links not just to developments in Wrexham, Broughton and Anglesey but also to maintain an accessible UK/Eire link leading to Holyhead .
“And that is before I get to the needs of the tourism and leisure industry in North Wales.
“Our main tourist market is the North West of England.
“People need to travel rapidly and efficiently to their leisure destination. If they cannot, they will look elsewhere.”
 “North Wales should be part of initiatives like those, capitalising on the global gateways of Liverpool and Manchester to drive the dispersal of international visitors into North Wales and delivering new growth opportunities for the region.”

North Wales chair of the CBI Tracy North said: “North Wales businesses operate east-west, into the North West, not north-south with Cardiff, so the Northern Powerhouse presents a fantastic opportunity for businesses in our region.

“We must, however, be proactive about publicising our offering and shouting about our successes, as this is what the other Northern Powerhouse regional economies are doing. We need to be starting now.
“Our infrastructure still needs improving. Electrification of the North Wales rail line and better direct rail access to the Wirral and Liverpool will help the big proportion of the region’s workforce that criss-crosses the border daily.

“The A5117 continues to be a bottleneck at Queensferry and the A55 is regularly congested. Highways investment similar to that proposed for the M4 in south Wales would add lanes, and remove roundabouts in the western A55.

“Continued lack of access to affordable broadband infrastructure in North Wales could discourage Northern Powerhouse leaders and investors from engaging with smaller firms on our side of the border.”

MORE.....http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/north-wales-must-part-northern-9617206 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-news/north-wales-must-part-northern-9617206)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2015, 07:55:56 am
I certainly agree about electrification. The entire rail network ought to be electrified but, as always, it seems only the South East is considered important enough to require that level of investment.

Mind you, I'd argue that the Snowdon railway needs electrification, too. It might sound daft, but electrification would allow for longer and more coaches, year-round operation and more importantly a much smoother ascent. And I've long wondered why A Trains treat the Conwy valley line with such disdain. They claim the investment in panoramic coaches so folk could enjoy the superb views would cost too much, but that could be an egg and chicken situation.  If the Conwy valley trains were fitted out with panoramic windows and roofs, perhaps a small buffet section installed and a souvenir shop made available then it's possible that the visitors might use them a lot more. After all, the Conwy Valley and Blaenau F are becoming the destinations for novel sports and Arriva could do well from such an investment.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2015, 08:34:31 am
A curious anomaly: why is our productivity not rising? Our productivity is lower than Italy's and a lot lower than France, Germany and the US.

http://visual.ons.gov.uk/productivity-puzzle/ (http://visual.ons.gov.uk/productivity-puzzle/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 16, 2015, 07:59:30 am
It seems that the old fox hunter David Cameron was out foxed by the SNP when he tried to bring in his bill to get around the anti hunting legislation.
It just goes to show how low the Cons will go to appease some of their supporters and without thought to what the majority of the population think.
"One Nation"   that's just rubbish when the party just looks after its own.   It'll be very interesting to see next year's New Years honours list as I expect that the Cons financial backers will be prominently featured in the list because of the Cons unexpected victory in the General Election
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 16, 2015, 12:50:50 pm
 $good$ Hit the nail squarely on the head.
The Tories don't even appease the majority of their own supporters only the ones who 'matter'

A simple calculation will tell you a large percentage of the people who voted tory will be in one way or another worse off.
Most of their voters simply 'fell for it'

An example in my work (summed up as simply as I can put it) we had a very 'forward' thinking manager who wanted to change the pay deal so that not everyone got an equal pay rise.
Say there was 100 people in our workplace - he wanted say 15 to get a very large pay rise and the other 85 to get a very tiny one.
Of course nobody would know who the 'lucky' 15 would be until after it was decided!  We knew he had no chance of getting a majority to go along with this ludicrous idea so we let him have a vote on it.

We won by about 65/35 - despite everyone knowing that only 15% would benefit - 35% of people voted for this. So 20% of people voted for themselves to get a massive pay decrease.
Because of course everyone thinks they are that 'lucky one' - they are not  &shake&

Be interesting when those sleep walk voters start coming around and realising what they have done.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2015, 04:42:18 pm
Should you place your vote based purely upon how much you benefit personally then?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 16, 2015, 04:58:08 pm
Should you place your vote based purely upon how much you benefit personally then?

Of course you should.

If everyone did that the mass majority (working classes) would win every election.
But for some reason we are still being ruled by the minority upper classes.
Makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 16, 2015, 07:27:19 pm
Should you place your vote based purely upon how much you benefit personally then?

Of course you should.

If everyone did that the mass majority (working classes) would win every election.
..and the country would be bankrupt, I imagine!  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2015, 12:02:45 am
Should you place your vote based purely upon how much you benefit personally then?

Of course you should.

If everyone did that the mass majority (working classes) would win every election.
..and the country would be bankrupt, I imagine!  :laugh:

It pretty much already is isn't it?   £1.5 TRILLION overall National Debt?  At a time when we have record low interest rates.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 17, 2015, 08:12:14 am
Quote
It pretty much already is isn't it?   £1.5 TRILLION overall National Debt?  At a time when we have record low interest rates.

If anyone could fathom how international macro economics actually worked, then that might make sense.  As it is I don't think anyone can, so it doesn't.

Me - I'm patiently waiting for the criminal gangs who caused all this to be charged and convicted. It's incredible. The bloke who swipes a bottle of sherry from Asda incurs the full wrath of the justice system, yet the bank employees and managers who criminally conspired to make themselves billions and in the pursuit of that brought the world's economy crashing down are still enjoying the high life.

Sadly, I believe this says more about how our society regards the acquisition of wealth than anything else.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2015, 12:30:13 pm
The Cons have indeed conned the public but anyone who has voted for them shouldn't complain when the cuts hit them personally.   As you quite rightly say BTR,  they don't even represent the majority of their own voters only those who are very well off.
They have hammered the Public Sector workers for years now by cutting staff and reducing their pay increases to 1%  but  MP'S are  public sector workers themselves.
I know that they have a different pay review body to other Public Sector workers but it seems hypocritical for them to restrict public sector workers increases to a 1% increase,  but at the same time accept a pay increase of about £10K
I expect the Cons MP's to have their snouts in the trough but I'm afraid that there are a lot of other MP's from other parties who would also accept the increase without question
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 17, 2015, 12:54:09 pm
PAY RISE: There has been mixed reaction to proposals to award MPs a 10% pay rise, increasing their salary from £67k a year to £74k.

Some MPs and members of the public have are angry about the plans as it comes at a time when many people are feeling the pinch due to pay freezes or below-inflation pay rises.
A website Donate My Pay Rise has been set up which tracks which MPs are donating their pay rise to charity.
So far, 43 have signed up.
None of North Wales MPs have made a decision yet.
RefDP.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on July 17, 2015, 01:22:26 pm
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/ (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/)


They tell the press they don't agree with it but behind closed doors they're saying 'about time too!'
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 17, 2015, 04:23:07 pm
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/ (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/)


They tell the press they don't agree with it but behind closed doors they're saying 'about time too!'

"The Prime Minister did not say what he would do with his pay rise but did say that it "gives you the opportunity to do more in terms of charitable giving and things like that."

Perhaps give it to some of the food banks you have caused  D)

What a total muppet!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on July 17, 2015, 04:36:09 pm
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/ (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-16/david-cameron-tells-itv-news-he-will-take-10-pay-rise-saying-the-right-thing-to-do-is-to-be-paid-the-rate-for-the-job/)


They tell the press they don't agree with it but behind closed doors they're saying 'about time too!'

"The Prime Minister did not say what he would do with his pay rise but did say that it "gives you the opportunity to do more in terms of charitable giving and things like that."

Perhaps give it to some of the food banks you have caused  D)

What a total muppet!



The fact he said he already gives to charity shows this rise is going anywhere but.
I guess they say charity begins at home!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 17, 2015, 06:20:39 pm
North Wales MP David Jones says giving his 10% pay rise to charity wouldn't be charitable

A North Wales MP has said he intends to take his bumper 10% pay rise - claiming to give it all to charity wouldn’t be charitable.
The bizarre explanation came from Clwyd West MP David Jones , when asked whether he would take the salary hike that will see his pay go up to £74,000 a year.
Some MPs - including North Wales ones - have decided to give the extra cash - around £7,000 - to charity, saying the rise was inappropriate in straitened times.
But in a blistering defence of his decision to accept the rise, David Jones MP said it was no-one’s business other than his and that the money “ceases to be public money the moment it is paid to me”.
Some MPs have decided not to take the money - which will take their pay up to £74,000 - and are to give it to charity.
MORE PLUS POLL....http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-mp-david-jones-9681072 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-mp-david-jones-9681072)


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 17, 2015, 06:21:40 pm
I’m not particularly interested in Politics,  but because of this thread I started to think in an unbiased manner what various Political Parties have done that have benefitted not just their voters, but  the majority of the UK population. 
My first thoughts were  of the introduction of the Old Age Pension Act of 1908 by the Liberal Government and the NHS  Act of 1946 by the Labour Party.    Both acts benefitted the entire population of the UK without exception.
I then tried to think what the Tories had done that benefitted everyone, after all they have been in power for long periods but I just couldn’t think of anything.   
 I could think of The Enclosure Acts of the 19th Century that enabled the likes of the Mostyn family to legally steal common land from the commoners and in the 20th Century they did a number of reforms such as selling off council houses at a 40% discount.    Then they sold off all the nationalised industries at prices below the market value and mainly to the large companies.
In the 21st Century they are still at it and sold off the Royal Mail and Banks at prices below the market value and have other such sales in the pipeline.
They must have done some good things as people some how still vote for them but I can’t readily think of anything that they have done that benefits anyone other than a minority of their voters
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2015, 07:44:40 pm
North Wales MP David Jones says giving his 10% pay rise to charity wouldn't be charitable


But in a blistering defence of his decision to accept the rise, David Jones MP said it was no-one’s business other than his and that the money “ceases to be public money the moment it is paid to me”.


How arrogant!!   That just about sums up politicians in my mind.
Can I get away with saying... 'It ceases to be the bank's money, the moment I steal it'??
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 17, 2015, 07:55:27 pm
Well, first prize for disingenuity goes to David Jones MP:

"Mr Jones added: “It seems to me that MPs can’t actually win, when they are in charge of their own expenses they get pilloried, they are handed over to an independent body and they are still pilloried - and I just don’t understand why.”"

Does he really expect the electorate to believe that he's incapable of grasping the link between MPs forming the Government that has placed public Service sector wages on hold for four years, then limited them to 1% for the next four, then happily taking a huge pay hike? 

Perhaps he should look at the Public Sector independent bodies that advise on wage increases. In 2014, of course, the Tory-led coalition blocked the recommendations from the independent Review Body on Doctors' and Dentists’ Remuneration (as well as other NHS pay review bodies) for a 1 per cent pay rise for all staff, on the grounds that it would be unaffordable and that many staff would receive pay increases linked to career progression.

The Parliamentary independent body was brought in after the MPs' expenses scandal - with which Mr Jones will be well acquainted, since he paid back £81,000 in profit he made on a tax-payer funded second home. But it's reasonable to ask why the government apparently heeds the MP's body, yet not the Doctors', Nurses' or Dentists'. Are MPs inherently more important than NHS staff?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 17, 2015, 09:08:16 pm
Well, first prize for disingenuity goes to David Jones MP:

...... Are MPs inherently more important than NHS staff?

No.... Never.....Absolutely NOT.
However, they love to THINK that they are...  :( :(
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 18, 2015, 07:57:02 am
From the folk at 38 degrees:

Our people-powered campaign against tax-dodging is working! The government has started making moves to close down tax dodges used by finance bosses to avoid millions of pounds in tax each year.

But so far, their plans don’t cut it. Wealthy private equity managers can still get away with paying less tax than they ought to. And 38 Degrees members don’t settle for a job half-done. So let’s use this momentum to get the Mayfair tax loophole closed down for good.

This Tuesday, our MPs will debate the new law that starts to crack down on tax-dodging. If lots of them speak out about the Mayfair loophole, it could be our best chance yet to force the government to strengthen the law - and finally make this tax scam illegal.

Today, your MP will be sitting down to prepare for the debate. Imagine the impact of hundreds of emails and phone calls from their constituents - all urging them to speak out against the Mayfair loophole. They’ll know that they’ll have to speak up in the debate. Please can you call or email your MP now? It'll just take a couple of minutes:

Here comes the technical explanation! The Mayfair Loophole lets private equity bosses pay a lower rate of tax for their job - managing other people’s money. It should be counted as income tax, but the loophole let’s them fiddle it as a tax on investment so they pay much less.

But thanks to everything we’ve done together, the government’s had to admit that the Mayfair loophole is a scam. Their current plans would bring in an extra £350 million a year for public services like our NHS. But we need to make sure Osborne doesn’t think the job is done. We need to make sure that in next week's debate, he hears from MPs across all parties urging him to close this loophole fully.

The government wants to look good on tax. They know the public wants them to do more to crack down on unfair tax dodging by some of the wealthiest people in Britain. So let’s get MPs to flood the debate with facts about how much money is lost through the Mayfair tax loophole. If our MPs speak out, we can back Chancellor George Osborne into a corner.

Can you take a few minutes to speak your MP and ask them to speak out about the Mayfair Loophole - and why it should be closed - in Tuesday’s debate? Click below to call or email your MP:

Together, we’ve done something pretty extraordinary. We’ve forced George Osborne to tackle a tax loophole used by some of the richest people in the City. But super-wealthy finance bosses are still getting a massive tax cut. 38 Degrees members stand for fairness, and a loophole that still lets millionaires pay a lower rate of tax than nurses and teachers is anything but fair.


Thanks for being involved"
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 19, 2015, 05:04:58 pm
I received an e-mail recently and although I've seen it before it's quite topical for here:-   This is just a little extract

THE CROOKS IN GOVERNMENT HAVE PULLED OFF A BIGGER ROBBERY THAN THE GREAT TRAIN ROBBERS EVER DID.
 
Entitlement!!?? 
My foot !!  IT'S MY MONEY!!  I paid IN cash for my pension.
 
Just because they borrowed the money to spend on other things,
that  doesn't make my pension some kind of charity or  handout!!
 
      Remember MP's benefits? ---
free healthcare,  outrageous retirement packages,
67 days paid holidays, three weeks paid vacation,
unlimited paid sick days.  Now that really should be called
welfare entitlements, yet they they have the nerve to call my
O A P retirement payments entitlements?
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 21, 2015, 12:13:18 pm
PENNY PINCHING... &shake&
POLITICS: An MP who claimed 9p on expenses for a 352-yard car journey has defended the cost, but admitted such small claims may look "odd". Rob Wilson, Conservative member for Reading East, has made a number of claims for short journeys, with many coming in under £1, but said over the course of a year the mileage "does add up".REFDP
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 24, 2015, 11:18:53 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33649251 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33649251)

I am wary of entering into to such a passionate debating arena as one on politics, but this had me falling over with laughter and it confirms that Ken Livingstone is indeed, completely and utterly deluded....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 24, 2015, 12:28:42 pm
I'll be voting for him  $good$

I would rather have a strong opposition than a diluted leadership. Together with the SNP we can beat the Tories in Parliament.
Sadly the current Labour leadership was too weak to vote against the latest benefit cuts which punished people IN work! If Corbyn doesn't win 'Labour' need to change their name.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 24, 2015, 12:31:41 pm
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/jeremy-corbyn-is-the-only-candidate-the-public-actually-likes--labour-or-otherwise-10407998.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/jeremy-corbyn-is-the-only-candidate-the-public-actually-likes--labour-or-otherwise-10407998.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 24, 2015, 12:40:27 pm
Well, he'll probably make Labour unelectable. But we're apparently already living in one of the most right-wing and authoritarian countries:

http://politicalcompass.org/euchart (http://politicalcompass.org/euchart)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 24, 2015, 02:10:44 pm
I'm sure that Jeremy Corbyn is a thoroughly decent, highly principled and well meaning chap, however, the leader of the opposition is supposed to be the 'Prime Minister-in-waiting' and anyone who thinks that Jeremy Corbyn is future UK Prime Minister material is living in cuckoo land. As a Labour leader, he will make Michael Foot's term in office look like a romping success; even his nomination is tearing the Labour party apart and his possible success will create a divisive Labour party meaning a weak and wholly ineffective opposition; the last thing that this country needs.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 24, 2015, 03:02:59 pm
I'm sure that Jeremy Corbyn is a thoroughly decent, highly principled and well meaning chap

He probably is and so were Michael Foot and Tony Benn but the images they portrayed to the public was one of the reasons why Labour was in the Political wilderness for so long.
David Milliband was the favourite to be the previous labour leader but his brother Ed got it instead thanks to the support of the unions and just look what has happened!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 24, 2015, 04:14:02 pm
I'm sure that Jeremy Corbyn is a thoroughly decent, highly principled and well meaning chap

He probably is and so were Michael Foot and Tony Benn but the images they portrayed to the public was one of the reasons why Labour was in the Political wilderness for so long.
David Milliband was the favourite to be the previous labour leader but his brother Ed got it instead thanks to the support of the unions and just look what has happened!

Hugo, you are categorically correct.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 24, 2015, 04:17:09 pm
I'm sure that Jeremy Corbyn is a thoroughly decent, highly principled and well meaning chap, however, the leader of the opposition is supposed to be the 'Prime Minister-in-waiting' and anyone who thinks that Jeremy Corbyn is future UK Prime Minister material is living in cuckoo land. As a Labour leader, he will make Michael Foot's term in office look like a romping success; even his nomination is tearing the Labour party apart and his possible success will create a divisive Labour party meaning a weak and wholly ineffective opposition; the last thing that this country needs.

It already is divisive. 48 MPs voted against the welfare bill. '184 'abstained' I think if I 'abstained' from doing my job I would be sacked. But politicians live in a different world sadly.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 24, 2015, 05:08:50 pm
If you want to see your own political leanings, take this test:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/test (https://www.politicalcompass.org/test)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 24, 2015, 07:45:15 pm
Very interesting Ian,   I ended up almost dead centre but in the same box as Ghandi.

Thank goodness I wasn't in the same box as Thatcher or the other dictator!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on July 24, 2015, 07:53:03 pm
Very interesting Ian,   I ended up almost dead centre but in the same box as Ghandi.

Thank goodness I wasn't in the same box as Thatcher or the other dictator!


I was in the same box just left of you, whatever that means.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 24, 2015, 11:26:33 pm
I was just to the left of centre, which surprised me...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 25, 2015, 08:08:17 am
Quote
Very interesting Ian,   I ended up almost dead centre but in the same box as Ghandi.
Thank goodness I wasn't in the same box as Thatcher or the other dictator!

 _))*

I was almost in the left hand lower corner.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 25, 2015, 05:58:32 pm
This is the result that I got, I wonder how accurate the test is?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 02, 2015, 07:57:09 am
I am fascinated by the Labour leadership contest. Jeremy Corbyn, IRA apologist, supporter of Hammas, Hezbollah and failed leftist leaders who wants to scrap the British monarchy is romping away with the contest. Both Derek Hatton and George Galloway have said that they will re-join the Labour party forthwith if Jeremy Corbyn wins. How can Labour's most rebellious MP, who has voted against his own party over 500 times claim leadership rights? The frightening part for me is that his election will obliterate the possibility of Labour providing any reasoned or tempering opposition for at least a generation allowing a succession of progressively right-wing Conservative governments.

Actually, I am always very slightly suspect of anyone who is tea-total.......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 02, 2015, 10:44:18 am
:-))))

Well, I know that many would leave the party if Hatton rejoined, for sure.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 03, 2015, 04:37:41 pm
Your Political Compass

Economic Left/Right: -6.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46

Whatever that means, I was a bit lower than where Gandhi was
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 03, 2015, 04:40:04 pm
I am fascinated by the Labour leadership contest. Jeremy Corbyn, IRA apologist, supporter of Hammas, Hezbollah and failed leftist leaders who wants to scrap the British monarchy is romping away with the contest. Both Derek Hatton and George Galloway have said that they will re-join the Labour party forthwith if Jeremy Corbyn wins. How can Labour's most rebellious MP, who has voted against his own party over 500 times claim leadership rights? The frightening part for me is that his election will obliterate the possibility of Labour providing any reasoned or tempering opposition for at least a generation allowing a succession of progressively right-wing Conservative governments.

Actually, I am always very slightly suspect of anyone who is tea-total.......

Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 03, 2015, 04:42:04 pm
"Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree.

This makes him a 'supporter' of Hamas and Hezbollah does it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 03, 2015, 05:39:53 pm
Quote
    I am fascinated by the Labour leadership contest. Jeremy Corbyn, IRA apologist, supporter of Hammas, Hezbollah and failed leftist leaders who wants to scrap the British monarchy is romping away with the contest.
Quote
Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way.

Er...not quite. And Bosun left out that he still writes a weekly column for the Morning Star. And he is part-funded by Interpal, a charity set up to aid Palestinians. And he's on record as saying he wants the UK to become a republic. And he supports Russia's positions on NATO and blames the Ukraine crisis on the USA. And he funded a trip to the UK for Raed Salah of the Israeli Islamic Movement, and has spoken on platforms with Hezbollah. So yep;  apart from that, er... Nope.  Seems Bosun's pretty well spot on.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 03, 2015, 05:46:29 pm
I don't doubt that he's a decent person; just...odd. He's living in CCL if he believes his leadership would increase the Labour movement's membership. And I'm suspicious that he was involved with Militant Tendency. He certainly knew and sympathised with many MT members, and for that alone he should be excommunicated.

But no; the current MPs won't support him, but the oddly bizarre voting system the Parliamentary party use to choose a leader could see him squeeze through.  If he does, it will be the end of the LP as we know it, and a gift to the Tories, and yet he can't see that. Which in itself makes him unsuitable.

And I don't know how he has time to be an MP, let alone Leader, since he's Chair of the All Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on the Chagos Islands, Chair of the APPG on Mexico, Vice-Chair of the APPG on Latin America and Vice-Chair of the APPG on Human Rights. He is also a Member of the Bolivia, Britain-Palestine, Great Lakes, Cheese, Dalits, Cycling, International Parliamentary Union and Traveller Law Reform APPGs.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 03, 2015, 06:13:07 pm
He seems to like everything that I dislike! Typical communist!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on August 03, 2015, 10:40:43 pm
He seems to like everything that I dislike! Typical communist!

He can't be all bad, if he likes Cheese!  (according to Ian's list)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 04, 2015, 06:59:20 am
Quote
He can't be all bad, if he likes Cheese!  (according to Ian's list)

 _))* _))* _))*

Initially, at least, that last was an organisation dedicated to the mediation of conflicts - which does fit well with his general mission, if you like. Not quite sure how cheese made it in, though...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 04, 2015, 11:43:48 am
Quote
    I am fascinated by the Labour leadership contest. Jeremy Corbyn, IRA apologist, supporter of Hammas, Hezbollah and failed leftist leaders who wants to scrap the British monarchy is romping away with the contest.
Quote
Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way.

Er...not quite. And Bosun left out that he still writes a weekly column for the Morning Star. And he is part-funded by Interpal, a charity set up to aid Palestinians. And he's on record as saying he wants the UK to become a republic. And he supports Russia's positions on NATO and blames the Ukraine crisis on the USA. And he funded a trip to the UK for Raed Salah of the Israeli Islamic Movement, and has spoken on platforms with Hezbollah. So yep;  apart from that, er... Nope.  Seems Bosun's pretty well spot on.

Your ability to dismiss what is right in front of you is amazing!
In regards to talking to Hamas and the Provisional IRA the man himself says, as I pointed out,
""Does it mean I agree with Hamas and what it does? No. Does it mean I agree with Hezbollah and what they do? No. What it means is that I think to bring about a peace process, you have to talk to people with whom you may profoundly disagree.

In his own words he profoundly disagrees with them. But apparently you and Bosun knows more about who Corbyn 'supports' or 'agrees' with than he does.

Yes he has 'met' with Hezbollah and yes he has met with former provisional IRA leaders, as has this person

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/the_queens_diamond_jubilee/9358332/Queen-meets-ex-IRA-commander-Martin-McGuinness-today.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/the_queens_diamond_jubilee/9358332/Queen-meets-ex-IRA-commander-Martin-McGuinness-today.html)



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 04, 2015, 12:45:24 pm
Quote
  I am fascinated by the Labour leadership contest. Jeremy Corbyn, IRA apologist, supporter of Hammas, Hezbollah and failed leftist leaders who wants to scrap the British monarchy is romping away with the contest.
Quote

   
Quote
Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way
.

Your ability to dismiss what is right in front of you is amazing.  It was you that said "Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way" wasn't it? And they were the first two lines I've commented on, aren't they?

Let's get this clear: you said " Nothing in the first two lines you wrote is accurate in any way" so, by extension, it was all inaccurate or, to put it another way, wrong. Right?

But I'm puzzled: which bit is wrong? Yes - you then went on to post more, and attempted to retract what you'd said by inference. But it still comes back to your fairly clear statement that " Nothing in the first two lines (he) wrote is accurate in any way. But it is. And it's all well documented.

Quote
apparently you and Bosun knows more about who Corbyn 'supports' or 'agrees' with than he does

Well, that's why you have social historians - so they can deduce what people would rather others didn't know.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 04, 2015, 02:05:35 pm
Ian

Jeremy Corbyn is NOT an IRA apologist (I assume Bosun means Provisional IRA by this rather than the IRA)
Either way he isn't one.

He is NOT a supporter of Hamas or Hezbollah (as discussed)

He does NOT want to scrap the British Monarchy "“I am at heart, as you very well know, a republican. But it’s not the fight I’m going to fight.”"


everything Bosun said is wrong. It's black and white, clear as crystal, red as Stalin's backside.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 04, 2015, 03:15:03 pm
Born2Run, let me make the facts perfectly clear, Jeremy Corbyn is the man who sympathised with violent Irish Republicanism in the 1980s, invited IRA representatives to the Commons a fortnight after the Brighton bombing in 1984 and, at a Troops Out meeting in 1987, stood for a minute’s silence to ‘honour’ eight IRA terrorists killed in an SAS ambush. A decade before the IRA ceasefire, he worked hard to build links between Labour and the PIRA, regularly hosting senior figures from their political wing in Parliament, calling for British withdrawal from Northern Ireland and paying tribute to deceased terrorists. Jeremy Corbyn also employed a convicted IRA terrorist as a researcher, notwithstanding that the conviction was later overturned on a technicality. I shall ignore the semantics as to whether you wish to term them IRA or PIRA, they are to all intense and purpose the same, murderers.

Further, the following may be (or, I suspect not) of interest to you, and is and has been, widely reported in the British press, which, if untrue would by now be the subject of a libel case.

Hamas, whose aim remains the complete destruction of Israel and which continues to kill civilians, is supported with fervour by Mr Corbyn who has taken thousands of pounds in gifts from organisations closely linked to the terror group, whose operatives he describes as “friends”. In February 2013, he and his wife travelled to Gaza thanks to a £2,800 gift from Interpal, a British charity banned by the US government as ‘part of the funding network of Hamas’ and as a terrorist organisation in its own right.
Interpal is allowed to operate in the UK after claiming it has broken its links with Hamas, a claim accepted by the Charity Commission. However, Interpal’s managing trustee, Essam Mustafa, was pictured eighteen months ago accompanying the Hamas leader, Ismail Haniyeh, on an official visit in Gaza. The two were filmed clapping and singing an anti-Israeli song in praise of Hamas’s military wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, and Hamas’martyrs’. Dr Mustafa is a former member of Hamas’s executive committee. In 2012, Mr Haniyeh and Dr Mustafa visited the homes of Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi, a senior Hamas leader who once promised he would "kill Jews everywhere," and Sheikh Said Seyam, who commanded Hamas's Executive Force, a militia that tortured and murdered Palestinian supporters of Fatah during Hamas's violent takeover of the Gaza Strip in 2006.

Mr Corbyn has received at least two further free trips, worth £2,450, from the Palestinian Return Centre and its subsidiary the European Campaign to End the Siege on Gaza, based at the PRC office in Crown House, Wembley. The PRC takes a strongly pro-Hamas position and has regularly hosted Hamas leaders, including Mr Haniyeh, at its annual conferences. At least one senior PRC leader in Europe has recruited individuals to Hamas. The PRC’s current head of media in the UK, Sameh Habeeb, founded and edited a virulently anti-Semitic website, Palestine Telegraph, which published a video by the former head of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke and numerous conspiracy theories about Jewish control of the world.

Next month, Mr Corbyn is due to speak at a conference organised by Middle East Monitor (MEMO), another group with strong sympathies for Hamas. MEMO’s director, Daud Abdullah, is a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood-linked British Muslim Initiative, set up and run by the Brotherhood activist Anas al-Tikriti and two senior figures in Hamas. MEMO’s’senior edito’, Ibrahim Hewitt, an extremist who believes that adulterers should be stoned to death, is chairman of Interpal, the Hamas-linked charity. MEMO has organised several meetings featuring Hamas leaders and terrorist sympathisers; its website also repeatedly peddles conspiracy theories about Jews in articles such as “How money from Israeli donors controls Westminster”.
 
Mr Corbyn and MEMO co-sponsored the visit to Britain and to Parliament of an Israel-based anti-Semitic extremist, Sheikh Raed Saleh, found by a British court to have spread the ‘blood libe’ against Jews, the claim that they use the blood of gentile children to make their bread. Mr Saleh, who also describes Jews as ’monkeys’ and ’bacteria’,  claims that 9/11 was a Jewish plot and that the Jews employed at the World Trade Center were warned not to come into work that day.

But he was strongly defended by Mr Corbyn, who congratulated him on defeating Government moves to exclude him from Britain, called him “a very honoured citizen who represents his people extremely well” and said he “looked forward to giving you tea on the [House of Commons] terrace.”

Mr Corbyn has met the leadership of Hamas, including Mr Haniyeh, several times, but they are not the only terror group he has had dealings with. He has also praised, and spoken on platforms with, representatives of the Iranian-backed Hezbollah, and once shared a platform with the Black September hijacker, Leila Khaled. In November 2012, Mr Corbyn hosted a meeting in Parliament with Mousa Abu Maria, a member of the banned terrorist group Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

The same year, Mr Corbyn also agreed to speak alongside two of Britain’s leading domestic bigots, Abdurraheem Green and Wasim Kempson, at a conference held at Arsenal FC’s Emirates stadium. The club barred Mr Green from its premises at the last minute after learning that he advocates a husband’s right to beat his wife. Green has also stated that “whoever claims that the Jew and the Christian are our brethren in faith has without doubt made a statement of clear disbelief” and quotes a saying of the Prophet that “if you find a Jew or Christian walking down the street, push them to the side.”

Sorry to confuse you with the facts Born2Run.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 04, 2015, 04:40:00 pm
Your 'facts' are copied ad verbum from a Telegraph article by a chap called Andrew Gilligan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11749043/Andrew-Gilligan-Jeremy-Corbyn-friend-to-Hamas-Iran-and-extremists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11749043/Andrew-Gilligan-Jeremy-Corbyn-friend-to-Hamas-Iran-and-extremists.html)

I apologise if I don't take what this man writes necessarily as 'fact'

More about him here - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2010/11/andrew-gilligan-islamism-press (http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2010/11/andrew-gilligan-islamism-press)

"So, let's get this straight. Gilligan is a journalist who makes lots of money from "outing" as many British Muslims as he can as "Islamists" or "extremists", often on deeply dubious grounds, and with the aid of selective quotation, yet at the same time also makes lots and lots of money working for a foreign country that is explicitly, openly and proudly Islamist and based on the rule of the clerics and a version of sharia law."

A man with something of a dubious background

https://coolnessofhind.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/andrew-gilligans-prevent-infused-anti-muslim-journalism/ (https://coolnessofhind.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/andrew-gilligans-prevent-infused-anti-muslim-journalism/)

Andrew Gilligan, who fanned the flames of hate against the Muslim community through the usual concoction of lies, spin and exaggeration during the Trojan Hoax incursion, has recently continued the establishment (and neoconservative) trend of down-playing anti-Muslim attacks, to the positive reporting of the Jewish community. He writes, for instance, that there are four times more hate crimes against Jews than Muslims.  Of course, this ignores the fact that the anti-Semitism monitoring body, Community Security Trust, has been around for several years.  There is also an issue of under-reporting of anti-Muslim attacks, as encapsulated in the following quote about a woman and anti-Muslim incidents:

“She says out of 30 different hate crime incidents, she has only ever reported two, and admits wearing a hijab has made her a target.”

In his disturbing article, which can be interpreted as propaganda to start a race war, he impliedly pits Muslims against Jews, with Muslims being insinuated through spin and unsubstantiated conclusions, as the cause of attack against the Jews.  The mechanism, like John Ware’s documentary, is neocon textbook: smear by association and draw grand conclusions.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 04, 2015, 05:23:32 pm
If you're going to quote an article verbatim, B2R, at least acknowledge the author.  I can't find out who the author is, but you might know them. If we can't attribute an article's provenance, then we might have to delete it, as a lot of what it says could be considered libellous.

The other issue is whether you can prove the facts as stated in Bosun's article are untrue. You might not like them, but that's not the point.  If they're not true, then they have to be deleted.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 04, 2015, 05:37:24 pm
Born2Run, whatever your thoughts or views are on various journalists, you have singularly failed to either deny or refute any of the facts about Jeremy Corby that have been widely reported in the media and open press.
 
‘Shooting the messenger’ does not alter the message; obviously you have a deeply entrenched position that will not be altered by facts and the truth, which, of course, is your right. 

John Heywood said in 1546 ‘There are none so blind as those who will not see’. But, I suppose you will argue about that as well.

Best wishes with your juggling shop.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 04, 2015, 06:14:48 pm
I know of Gilligan only through the Iraq affair and the subsequent Hutton enquiry. I know he resigned from the Beeb and was also awarded Journalist of the Year in 2008, so I imagine he's moderately competent, if not to everyone's taste. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2015, 12:08:05 pm
If you're going to quote an article verbatim, B2R, at least acknowledge the author.  I can't find out who the author is, but you might know them. If we can't attribute an article's provenance, then we might have to delete it, as a lot of what it says could be considered libellous.

The other issue is whether you can prove the facts as stated in Bosun's article are untrue. You might not like them, but that's not the point.  If they're not true, then they have to be deleted.

Ian, unlike Bosun I have hyperlinked every quote which I have used so don't see the problem there.  ???
I also hyperlinked the article Bosun used himself which he didn't!
Shouldn't you be telling him off rather than me?
 $thanx$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2015, 12:13:33 pm
Born2Run, whatever your thoughts or views are on various journalists, you have singularly failed to either deny or refute any of the facts about Jeremy Corby that have been widely reported in the media and open press.
 
‘Shooting the messenger’ does not alter the message; obviously you have a deeply entrenched position that will not be altered by facts and the truth, which, of course, is your right. 

John Heywood said in 1546 ‘There are none so blind as those who will not see’. But, I suppose you will argue about that as well.

Best wishes with your juggling shop.

Why don't you join us at the St Georges on Monday and put these questions to him yourself?
I would love to see someone challenge him rather than sit in a room with a bunch of nodding Jefferys  ££$

By the way, apart from me is anyone else here eligible to vote in the Labour leadership contest?
You don't have to tell me, I just find it interesting to know.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 05, 2015, 01:36:00 pm
I'm certainly not eligible to vote, if I could though I would vote for David Milliband as he did such a wonderful job of keeping Labour out in April $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2015, 01:53:32 pm
I'm certainly not eligible to vote, if I could though I would vote for David Milliband as he did such a wonderful job of keeping Labour out in April $good$

Do you mean Ed?

David would have done a better job. $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 05, 2015, 02:11:42 pm
Oops! Yes Ed!  :D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 05, 2015, 04:24:29 pm
Born2Run, whatever your thoughts or views are on various journalists, you have singularly failed to either deny or refute any of the facts about Jeremy Corby that have been widely reported in the media and open press.
 
‘Shooting the messenger’ does not alter the message; obviously you have a deeply entrenched position that will not be altered by facts and the truth, which, of course, is your right. 

John Heywood said in 1546 ‘There are none so blind as those who will not see’. But, I suppose you will argue about that as well.

Best wishes with your juggling shop.

Why don't you join us at the St Georges on Monday and put these questions to him yourself?
I would love to see someone challenge him rather than sit in a room with a bunch of nodding Jefferys  ££$

By the way, apart from me is anyone else here eligible to vote in the Labour leadership contest?
You don't have to tell me, I just find it interesting to know.

Thank you for your kind invitation, sadly I have to decline as I’m out of the country until later next week. I do have to add that I would not attend in any event for two reasons; the second being that I’m not eligible to vote in the Labour leadership election and I am certainly not deceitful enough to join Labour simply to vote to ensure the election of a candidate to further the interests of my party (possibly because I do not belong to, or actively support any particular political party) although the current surge in the Labour Party membership suggests that some people are.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 05, 2015, 04:33:58 pm
Do you think some Tories or people from other parties are joining the Labour party in order to vote in somebody bound to lose?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 05, 2015, 05:31:16 pm
Sounds like  a plan!   $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 05, 2015, 06:43:09 pm
Do you think some Tories or people from other parties are joining the Labour party in order to vote in somebody bound to lose?

There are numerous reports in the national and local press and social media that Tories are joining the labour Party to vote for Jeremy Corbyn for the reasons that I set out in my initial post on this issue - that he would create chronic disunity within the Labour Party and make it a hopeless opposition and unelectable for a generation thus enabling a progressively right wing Conservative government. Virtually all the broad-sheets (as well as that well known bastion of liberal values – The Daily Mail) have recent articles on this.

Meanwhile, The Independent (on-line at least) today says that Harriet Harman, the Acting Labour Leader, is so concerned about infiltration by the Hard Left trying to infiltrate the party that she has written to every Labour MP. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-ordered-to-vet-members-who-apply-to-join-party-amid-fears-entryists-signing-up-to-vote-in-jeremy-corbyn-10438741.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-ordered-to-vet-members-who-apply-to-join-party-amid-fears-entryists-signing-up-to-vote-in-jeremy-corbyn-10438741.html)

So in answer to your question, ‘Yes, I do think that people are joining the Labour party simply to vote to pursue their own agenda’.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 05, 2015, 06:51:45 pm
Quote
as well as that well known bastion of liberal values – The Daily Mail


 _))* _))* _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 06, 2015, 12:38:41 pm
I don't think it's more than a handful who are joining up for that reason. I think the 'surge' in new members is mainly young people from outside politics who are interested in something different.
That surely has to be a good thing.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 06, 2015, 08:03:42 pm
Well, it seems it's about 150,000 good things...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 07, 2015, 09:07:37 am
Jeremy Corbyn is an absolute godsend....for the Tories. It will plunge the Labour Party into a civil war between the left and right factions and probably result in a 'Michael Foot' situation of rendering them unelectable for many years.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 07, 2015, 09:10:34 am
Jeremy Corbyn is criticised by victims' families after failing to condemn the IRA
SIOBHAN FENTON Thursday 06 August 2015

Jeremy Corbyn has been criticised by families of IRA victims after failing to explicitly condemn the group.

The Labour leadership candidate was in Northern Ireland yesterday to appear on a panel at West Belfast festival Feile an Phobail. In a telephone interview with BBC Radio Ulster, Stephen Nolan repeatedly asked Mr Corbyn to condemn the IRA’s actions.

When asked if he condemned the IRA, the Islington North MP said: “I condemn all bombing, it is not a good idea, and it is terrible what happened.”
 
Mr Nolan repeated: “The question is do you condemn what the IRA did?”

Mr Corbyn replied: “Look, I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides as well. What happened in Derry in 1972 was pretty devastating as well.”

When the question was put to him a third time, he said: “Can I answer the question in this way? We gained ceasefires, they were important and a huge step forward. Those ceasefires brought about the peace process, brought about the reconciliation process which we should all be pleased about. Can we take the thing forward rather than backward?”

Mr Nolan again asked: “Are you refusing to condemn what the IRA did?”. At which point railway noise can be heard Mr Corbyn said that he could not hear the question because he was travelling on a train and had poor signal.

Asked the question a fifth time, he said: “I feel we will have to do this later you know”, before the line goes dead.

The Labour leadership candidate’s behaviour has been criticised by relatives of IRA victims. Ann Travers, whose 22-year-old sister Mary was shot dead by the IRA, told the Belfast Telegraph that it was an “insult to all our dead loved ones.”

She said: “I am shocked and disappointed that an MP, especially someone who hopes to win a leadership contest and lead the Labour Party into government, would find it so difficult to say five simple words, ‘Yes I condemn the IRA’.

“Any right-minded, moral, government minister shouldn’t have to think twice to condemn it.”

Colin Parry, whose 12-year-old son Tim was killed in an IRA bomb in 1993, also criticised Mr Corbyn. He said: “When I saw the nature of the interview it didn’t surprise me. I think he saw an equivalence between the British Government’s armed forced and republican terrorists which I think anyone with a balanced view in Northern Ireland could hardly agree with.”

Mr Corbyn has been criticised by opponents for appearing to have links to Irish Republicanism. He has defended inviting IRA representatives to the House of Commons in 1984 a fortnight after the Brighton Bombing.

In 1987, he also observed a minute’s silence for eight IRA members who had been killed by British military personnel.

The 66-year-old, who has been the MP for Islington North since 1983, has unexpectedly come to lead the race to become the new Labour leader.

Mr Corbyn's campaign said he had clearly and immediately condemned all violence, from all sides, in his Belfast Telegraph interview. His team said: "Northern Ireland has been through one of the most difficult and inspiring experiences of establishing peace and reconciliation, and Jeremy's approach is about continuing to move forward on that basis. He is opposed to all violence, which is why he backed talks to achieve peace, when others refused to."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-criticised-by-victims-families-after-failing-to-condemn-the-ira-10442683.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-criticised-by-victims-families-after-failing-to-condemn-the-ira-10442683.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 07, 2015, 09:25:37 am
" “I condemn all bombing, it is not a good idea, and it is terrible what happened.”

Case closed - ridiculous article
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 07, 2015, 09:37:13 am
Well, it seems it's about 150,000 good things...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-party-membership-soaring-fastest-6207338 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-party-membership-soaring-fastest-6207338)

Yes and they are all stringently checked, as that idiotic Tory found out and made himself look a fool  _))*

Tory activists also claimed they'd 'sabotage' the vote by picking Mr Corbyn - but MP Tim Loughton was soon caught out when he tried sneaking in.

Labour rejected his application yesterday but thanked him for his £3 'donation'.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 07, 2015, 09:37:39 am
Quote
Case closed - ridiculous article

Well no, it's not. You quote a line which is largely meaningless.  Presumably, that means he also condemns the British armed forces en masse for their part during WWII?  "I condemn all bombing".  Including that of ISIS? Of Hamburg? Why did he not simply answer the question directly? That's all they were asking.

Quote
Yes and they are all stringently checked

 _))* Yes, they found an MP - not really that hard, is it? But there may well be other seekinh to muddy the waters they haven't found.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 07, 2015, 09:39:08 am
" “I condemn all bombing, it is not a good idea, and it is terrible what happened.”

Case closed - ridiculous article
But why would he decline to condemn the IRA when asked FIVE separate times?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 07, 2015, 10:45:41 am
Corbyn is without a shadow of doubt a huge liability to the Labour Party, I hope he wins the leadership election!  WWW
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 07, 2015, 10:52:29 am
Then we agree on something  ££$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 07, 2015, 11:03:51 am
The major issue is that the country needs a viable and strong opposition. To allow any party to govern without some accountability system in place could be a disaster in the long term. Corbyn simply has far, far too many echoes of the Militant Tendency in his background. It might delight some die-hard Tories if he were to win but his very election will damage the opposition itself irreversibly. And I don't believe that;ll be good for the country.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 07, 2015, 11:20:39 am
Not necessarily

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/here-are-the-four-most-common-misconceptions-about-me-and-my-campaign--and-the-truth-10443302.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/here-are-the-four-most-common-misconceptions-about-me-and-my-campaign--and-the-truth-10443302.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 07, 2015, 11:24:47 am
Quote
Corbyn is without a shadow of doubt a huge liability to the Labour Party, I hope he wins the leadership election!  WWW


Then we agree on something  ££$


Don't forget that ME was in the top right hand box along with Margaret Thatcher and Adolf Hitler!           :o
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 07, 2015, 12:06:12 pm
 8)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Dwyforite on August 08, 2015, 01:48:46 am
don't worry about Maggie,hugo she is going to be on that back burner for a long long time
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2015, 11:34:33 am
It's not Maggie I'm worried about, it's ME.    Anyone who shares a bed with Maggie and Adolph must be a worry.

I wouldn't be surprised if ME is one of the 150,000  " new Labour" supporters trying to get that left winger Jeremy Corbyn voted in as leader of the Labour party,

ME's never forgiven the Labour Party for voting in John  Bercow   as the Speaker of the House of Commons and he's getting his own back now.      ;D
     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on August 08, 2015, 12:46:59 pm
No need to worry about me Hugo! And I have not joined Labour to vote the mad bloke in, good idea though!  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2015, 01:04:01 pm
Good on you ME,      $good$
it seems that the Labour Party does not need any help from other parties as they are doing a good job of imploding in on themselves by even considering him as a candidate.
But that's democracy for you and I hope it doesn't bounce back to haunt the party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 09, 2015, 04:59:36 am
At last, with Derek Hatton and George Galloway (who can forget one of television’s most cringe-worthy moments, George Galloway on Big Brother) and other members of the Socialist Workers Party and ‘loony left’ re-joining the Labour Party at least they have something in common with the Conservatives, they all want Jeremy Corbyn to be the next leader of the Labour Party. He is a man so besotted with his own ludicrous ideals that he is prepared to condemn the Labour Party, not to Churchill’s ‘wilderness years’, but to ‘wilderness generations’, virtually guaranteeing a right wing Tory government and an ineffective opposition for at least a decade.
 
That is an obstacle to democracy that should be a concern to us all. 

It’s painfully obvious that the Labour Party has not learnt from the debacle of the last leadership election, when thanks to the union’s block vote, the party voted in the doomed non-entity Red Ed and passed over possibly the best leader they never had, David Miliband, who there is a very good chance, would be prime Minister now.

The interview by Siobhan Fenton posted by DaveR sums up the political weasel that is Jeremy Corbyn. Colin Parry, one of the most humbling and dignified people ever to speak on Northern Irish matters, summed it up perfectly.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 09, 2015, 07:59:22 am
One major issue with Labour leader-types is their misplaced concept of 'mission'.  If Corbyn really cared about Labour remaining as a credible opposition he would withdraw his candidature, but he will see himself as representing the underdog, the dispossessed, the homeless and the vulnerable against the 'evils' of Conservatism, whereas Tories never have the same issues, because they see themselves as representing the wealthier sectors of society, whose membership want only to become wealthier.

I wasn't aware Hatton had rejoined, as the last I heard was they were still refusing his application, but if he's ever allowed back in it will prove, beyond doubt, that the Labour party has learnt absolutely nothing from its past history.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2015, 11:04:47 am
Both Hatton and Galloway are just massaging their own egos if they are thinking of rejoining the Labour Party.   If they had an ounce of credibility they would know that their very presence in the Labour Party would send any potential Labour voter  packing.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 09, 2015, 11:30:50 am
Derek Hatton has posted this copy of his Labour Party membership card on his Twitter account.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 09, 2015, 12:24:14 pm
Thanks for that very depressing news Bosun,  I can remember Hatton from his days as an employee for Liverpool City Council.    If my memory serves me right he was an employee on  £11,000 approx per annum but I also remember that his expenses were about the same amount so that would account for him being able to afford his dandy lifestyle.
I've copied something I've just read from Wikipedia and it stinks


In a 2008 interview with the Sunday Telegraph,[9] Hatton revealed that he has become a capitalist running a property company in Cyprus and drives a £60,000 Range Rover. He justifies his change in attitude as "My days in politics were a very long time ago and I lost interest in it after I was expelled from the city council."

Hatton gave another interview to the Liverpool Daily Post in 2008 in which he reasserted his intention to seek selection as a Parliamentary Labour candidate for one of the Liverpool constituencies (or failing that, another North West constituency) at some point in the future. Hatton stated that he may challenge "one of the neo-Tory types currently representing Liverpool, like Maria Eagle maybe".

It emerged on 28 May 2015 that Hatton had attempted to rejoin the Labour Party two days after Labour's defeat in the 2015 general election. His application was rejected by Iain McNicol, the party's general secretary.[10]

In a BBC Newsnight broadcast on 27 July 2015 Hatton claimed not to be a property developer, and that he was a card carrying member of the Labour Party. He supported the campaign of Jeremy Corbyn to lead the Labour Party.[11
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on August 09, 2015, 02:23:50 pm
Hugo, I seem to recall Mr Hatton was nominally a fire-fighter employed by Merseyside County Council but was able to act as the Deputy Leader of Liverpool City Council.  This was one of the reasons why Mrs Thatcher wanted to outlaw "twin-tracking" by people employed by one - usually Labour controlled - council whilst holding paid office in another. The practice was very prevalent in London Boroughs.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 11, 2015, 09:59:14 am
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578)


It was standing room only during the visit of a political leadership hopeful as he raced through North Wales and warned Welsh Labour not to take its support for granted.

Jeremy Corbyn MP, seen by many political commentators as an unlikely saviour of the Labour party, was at St George’s Hotel Llandudno for a rally before zipping up the coast to Connah’s Quay.

More than 500 turned up to the hotel’s ballroom to hear the man now tipped to take over talk about how he plans to lead the party out of the political doldrums.

There were no spin doctors smoothing his path and no pre-selection of questions ahead of the talk - and he even managed to share a few words with the Daily Post before he went on stage to rapturous applause.

Mr Corbyn said: “One should never take anyone’s support for granted.

VIEW GALLERY    Jeremy Corbyn attends a meeting at the George Hotel in Llandudno during a visit to North Wales
“I’m MP for a constituency which has had a Labour MP since the 1930’s and I work extremely hard at representing it and I never take anything for granted and neither should we.

“People put their trust and faith in Labour to deliver for them.

“It’s up to us to then retain that support but also to bring people with you and to educate them.”

He also said Wales deserved special treatment after five years of austerity.

“Wales deserves a special look because of the jobs that have been lost, particularly over the last five years as austerity has bitten,” he said.

“It’s bitten into public service jobs and many of those lost what were relatively good permanent jobs with reasonable pension arrangements.

“Many of those people are now sadly working on zero hours contracts or short term working.

“There’s a great deal of under-employment in the whole of the UK, particularly in some parts of Wales.”

'Devolution I support'
Mr Corbyn also had time to praise First Minister Carwyn Jones and the work the Welsh government had done on keeping the NHS a public body.

“I’m going to meet him tomorrow I hope,” he said.

“I’m looking forward to meeting him and of course other members of the authority.

“I congratulate the Welsh Government on this, ending the internal market in the NHS, and that we have an NHS where people work for the NHS rather than the private sector.”

He also gave his views on devolution.

“Devolution I support. The Welsh Government needs more powers to develop the economy, particularly to improve the living standards of the poorest in Wales, where there is a big income gap between North Wales and other parts of Wales and so of course with England.

“I think they should have taxation powers. It doesn’t mean they have to use them.”

The Labour leadership ballot is set to close on September 12
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 11, 2015, 10:33:58 am
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578)

“I congratulate the Welsh Government on this, ending the internal market in the NHS, and that we have an NHS where people work for the NHS rather than the private sector.”

Because that's what important, of course, rather than actually treating patients.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 11, 2015, 11:11:01 am
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578)

“I congratulate the Welsh Government on this, ending the internal market in the NHS, and that we have an NHS where people work for the NHS rather than the private sector.”

Because that's what important, of course, rather than actually treating patients.

Why would people working for the NHS rather than private companies necessarily mean less people were treated?
Working for an organisation not run for profit, should and if run properly WOULD mean that more patients would get treated and treated quicker and more effectively.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 11, 2015, 05:04:33 pm
"Standing far outside Labour’s traditions, Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership would consign the party to oblivion and public disrepute. Its MPs should refuse co-operation"  is the start of the Times editorial today, a brilliant piece of writing that I cannot find on-line to be able to post a link here, but, if you possibly can, find a copy of the Times today to read it. 

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 11, 2015, 06:54:25 pm
Do you think some Tories or people from other parties are joining the Labour party in order to vote in somebody bound to lose?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33868771 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33868771)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 12, 2015, 08:43:40 am
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/jeremy-corbyn-llandudno-labour-party--9830578)

“I congratulate the Welsh Government on this, ending the internal market in the NHS, and that we have an NHS where people work for the NHS rather than the private sector.”

Because that's what important, of course, rather than actually treating patients.

Why would people working for the NHS rather than private companies necessarily mean less people were treated?
Working for an organisation not run for profit, should and if run properly WOULD mean that more patients would get treated and treated quicker and more effectively.
You missed my point. I was saying that his dogmatic focus was on the issue of private vs public provision of NHS services, rather than being concerned that NHS in North Wales is so badly run that BCUHB has been placed in Special Measures by WG. He doesn't seem to mind how poor a service is provided, as long as it isn't provided by private companies.

Personally, I believe whatever mix of provision provides the quickest and best level of treatment for all patients is most important. Wouldn't you agree?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 12, 2015, 09:23:29 am
It could be argued that the Cons want the NHS privatised so they can appease the companies that provide financial backing to them.    The NHS was never formed for privatisation but for the benefit of everyone irrespective of their financial standing, unlike the Tory Party that puts a price on everything.
If there are any short comings in the NHS then they should be addressed through the NHS system and not farmed out to Tory backers in the medical industry
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 12, 2015, 10:51:44 am
Agreed.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 12, 2015, 11:04:59 am
Unfortunately, it must be realised that the NHS is (and I can speak with an amount of experience on this) a potential financial bottomless pit. Just a couple of examples, a new drug that would give certain cancer suffers a 50% chance of a few more months of life – nothing more - £50,000 a month. Who should (or can) make that judgement to proscribe that drug? A 93 year old person could have an operation that might, or might not, save their life, but at a cost of £25,000 which could be spent on a youngsters condition. These are everyday dilemmas for the NHS, and obviously the patient and families may have different priorities to the those of the NHS financial planners. Plus, the continuous re-vamping, new initiatives, re-modelling and meddling by various Health Ministers has created a total shambles. For example, the current Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt has no medical or NHS experience and has created total uproar within the medical profession for his stupid comments, besides upsetting the Hillsborough victim’s families and over claiming his Parliamentary expenses despite being worth in excess of £4.5 million, but told NHS  workers they cannot have a 1% pay rise. The UK Government website requires 100,00 signatures  for a petition to be debated in parliament; a petition calling for a vote of ‘No Confidence’ in Jeremy Hunt passed that in one day, the first to reach that threshold, and no stands at over 200,000 signatures. The continuous movement of goalposts and re-inventing the wheel are not assisting.

And how can ‘target-driven objectives’ assist patient care? There is a complete lack of accountability within the management of the NHS which only comes to light when the issues become critical, then managers’ move on untainted. The reason for this is the ‘no-blame’ culture in the NHS where no-one is actually held responsible for a situation. In the private sector, a manager is responsible and accountable, and that’s where there has been an attempt to bring commercial accountability into the provision of services, by using outside industry and outsourcing. It’s a fine line, and an emotive one, between provision of services and profit making.

However, until we stop having self-serving, glory seeking, professional politicians who are more interested in sound bites and their expenses in charge, I have no doubt that the rot will continue.

Just look at our own local NHS Trust who have recently had to take on more staff.

Why, patient care?

No.

To deal with the increase in complaints.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on August 12, 2015, 12:38:39 pm
It could be argued that the Cons want the NHS privatised so they can appease the companies that provide financial backing to them.    The NHS was never formed for privatisation but for the benefit of everyone irrespective of their financial standing, unlike the Tory Party that puts a price on everything.
If there are any short comings in the NHS then they should be addressed through the NHS system and not farmed out to Tory backers in the medical industry
The NHS in Wales is a devolved issue, so policy is decided by the Labour controlled administration.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on August 20, 2015, 04:41:21 pm
Summit on big ideas for North Wales moves to Cardiff after 'ministers fail to turn up in region'

A summit about the future of the North Wales economy is to be held in Cardiff after ministers apparently failed to show up to several meetings in the North.
The North Wales Economic Ambition Board (NWEAB) has decided to hold its relaunch meeting in the capital, a move Clwyd West MP David Jones said showed that the North had to go cap in hand to the Cardiff if it wanted to be taken seriously.

It is understood the Minister for Economy, Science and Transport, Edwina Hart, was invited to three meetings of the board in the North but hadn't attended them.
She has agreed to go to the Cardiff meeting, and the government said Mrs Hart would be “visiting” North Wales at some point in September.

North Wales must be part of the Northern Powerhouse

The NWEAB insisted it wanted to go south to “showcase” the region in the capital.

Mr Jones, a former Welsh Secretary, said: “There’s a North West Economic Ambition Board, set up by North Wales local authorities and chaired by Cllr Dilwyn Roberts, leader of Conwy County Borough Council.
“They have sent several requests for Edwina Hart to meet them. But she is expecting them to travel to Cardiff for the relaunch (of the NWEAB). It underlines the Cardiff-centric attitude of the Welsh Government.”

Edwina Hart was apparently invited to several meetings of the board in the north but didn't attendEdwina Hart was apparently invited to several meetings of the board in the north but didn't attend

Conservative MP Mr Jones claimed that the Labour-led Welsh Government regards North Wales as a “remote province”.
He said the Welsh Government should engage with the NWEAB, and start engaging “properly and pro-actively” with the UK Government to leverage the benefits of Northern Powerhouse cities like Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds.
Otherwise North Wales will “continue to decline” compared with the North West of England and the rest of Wales, said Mr Jones.

A Welsh Government spokesman said: “The Economy Minister has accepted an invitation to attend the relaunch of the North Wales Economic Ambition Board. We had no involvement in choosing the time and location of this event.

“The Minister is visiting North Wales in early September.”

Rail electrification in North Wales must be moving faster, MP warns

A NWEAB spokesman said: “The NWEAB has requested an event in Cardiff to raise the profile of the region and showcase the significant economic opportunities in North Wales. The Minister kindly agreed to host the event on our behalf.”

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-economy-david-jones-9888474 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-economy-david-jones-9888474)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on August 20, 2015, 11:53:04 pm
'Northern Powerhouse', what a disingenuous load of RUBBISH.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 21, 2015, 08:08:36 am
Quite.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 21, 2015, 11:03:13 am
You are a Northern powerhouse Fester  Z**
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on August 21, 2015, 04:56:06 pm
You are a Northern powerhouse Fester  Z**

A Northern 'something'-house, B2R...  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on August 26, 2015, 01:44:37 pm
'Huge inequality' between North and South Wales' infrastructure spending revealed

More than twice as much taxpayers’ cash per person is spent on infrastructure projects in South Wales as on those in the North, figures have revealed.
Welsh Government spending on projects in the South comes to £574 more per person than the figure in the North.
Official figures show South Wales gets more spending per capita on projects such as roads and rail than North and Mid Wales combined.

Liberal Democrat AM Aled Roberts blasted the figures, saying they proved the people of North Wales were getting a “raw deal” with their share of the taxpayers’ money.
The North Wales regional AM said: “It’s often stated that more money is spent in the South East of Wales because that is where the most people live, but these figures are per person and still show huge inequality in spending.
“The fact is these infrastructure projects are funded by taxpayers.

“As that is the case, it is completely unacceptable that Labour is spending £574 more per person in South Wales compared to North Wales.”
Allocated spending per head for infrastructure across South Wales totalled £1,014 in the last two years, while in the North the figure was just £440.
Even if the total per person is combined for North and Mid Wales, those regions would still be £266 worse off than the South.

The figures, which were published following a Freedom of Information request by the Welsh Lib Dems, show how much more cash the Welsh Government “projected” to give different regions in 2013/14 and 2014/15 for schemes including housing, health, transport and road improvements, which cost over £500,000.
MORE...http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/welsh-government-spending-north-wales-9931653 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/welsh-government-spending-north-wales-9931653)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 26, 2015, 02:08:16 pm
Thanks for that SteveH, it's a very interesting item. There could be a lot of political arguments as to why this is happening, but it's difficult to argue with the figures. I'd like to hear how Labour (or their apologist's) defend this..... it could open an interesting debate on here. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 26, 2015, 05:03:27 pm
Very interesting Steve, we have always felt that that was the case but those figures prove it.     It's sad to see them confirmed though and I would imagine England with the Cons in power would be in a similar position with London ans the SE.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on August 26, 2015, 06:21:24 pm
Two more articles connected with this subject, I tried various searches without luck?

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-south-divide-wont-increase-9439266 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-south-divide-wont-increase-9439266)

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/promise-new-north-wales-minister-9731378 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/promise-new-north-wales-minister-9731378)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2015, 09:58:56 am

"One Nation"   that's just rubbish when the party just looks after its own.   It'll be very interesting to see next year's New Years honours list as I expect that the Cons financial backers will be prominently featured in the list because of the Cons unexpected victory in the General Election

No surprises here then, even Douglas Hogg managed to get his snout in the trough.       &shake&

https://home.bt.com/news/uk-news/david-cameron-announces-26-new-tory-peers-11364000378674#.VeAiFXtJvh0.email
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 30, 2015, 07:41:13 am
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11833264/Jeremy-Corbyns-Falklands-plan-tantamount-to-surrender-to-Argentina-warns-wounded-veteran-Simon-Weston.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11833264/Jeremy-Corbyns-Falklands-plan-tantamount-to-surrender-to-Argentina-warns-wounded-veteran-Simon-Weston.html)

More of the lunatic's plans for running the asylum.........
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 30, 2015, 02:13:50 pm
If Jeremy Corbyn does get voted in it'll be a backward step for the Labour Party, but that's democracy for you.

Look what democracy and the voting system has done for the UK.   It's left us with the Tory Party in total power with  arguably the most ineffective and impotent bunch of nodding Donkeys  representing us.

The UK is exempt from taking in any of these illegal migrants that are coming to Europe from Asia and Africa, that package has already been confirmed but what will Cameron do?
Only time will tell, will it be another U turn?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 30, 2015, 05:18:07 pm
Quote
Look what democracy and the voting system has done for the UK.

It's more the voting system. We badly need some form of PR.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2015, 03:47:46 pm
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.

Obviously a good MP for Islington but a future Prime Minister?      &shake&


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34233537 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34233537)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 12, 2015, 05:04:08 pm
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.


And Cameron and Osbourne have opened a bottle of 1945 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 13, 2015, 07:22:58 pm
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.

Obviously a good MP for Islington but a future Prime Minister?      &shake&


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34233537 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34233537)
Has he ever had a real job in his life outside of the Westminster bubble? Hes as out of touch as any tory toff.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 13, 2015, 07:44:08 pm
Depends on how you define a 'real job'. He was a full time union organiser / administrator and also did two years with VSO. But I agree he's out of touch.   Time will tell, of course, but the first test could possibly come if Cameron asks Parliament to broaden the front on ISIS. He would probably tell Labour MPs to vote against that but his own behaviour over the years means he has no moral authority at all to instruct party members on how they should vote.

We live in interesting times...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 14, 2015, 09:11:03 am
It's going to be a complete trainwreck and will be fascinating to watch.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2015, 09:38:23 am
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.


And Cameron and Osbourne have opened a bottle of 1945 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild.

https://twitter.com/david_cameron/status/642984909980725248

I don't think so. In fact I think they are very frightened that they actually have someone with some backbone facing them now. Hence the ludicrous tweet  :laugh:
Time will tell, time will tell.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2015, 09:39:43 am
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-win-conservative-party-warning-that-new-labour-leader-is-threat-to-national-security-mocked-on-twitter-10499317.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-win-conservative-party-warning-that-new-labour-leader-is-threat-to-national-security-mocked-on-twitter-10499317.html)

he Conservative Party is facing ridicule after it responded to Jeremy Corbyn’s landslide Labour leadership victory by warning that he is a “threat to national security”.

Mr Corbyn gained 59.5 per cent of votes in the election, leaving his rivals Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper and Liz Kendall in the dust with 19 per, 17 per cent and 4.5 per cent respectively.

As part of what appeared to be a co-ordinated response to the left-winger’s win, David Cameron lead his party in warning the public of the apparent risk that Mr Corbyn posed to the nation.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 14, 2015, 09:51:49 am
It was funny, really, since under the Tories we now have the smallest army since Cromwell...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 14, 2015, 10:47:48 am
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.


And Cameron and Osbourne have opened a bottle of 1945 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild.

https://twitter.com/david_cameron/status/642984909980725248

I don't think so. In fact I think they are very frightened that they actually have someone with some backbone facing them now. Hence the ludicrous tweet  :laugh:
Time will tell, time will tell.
I doubt very much that they feel anything other than ecstatic at the news. Listening to the ranks of his own MPs expressing their lack of confidence in him must have been music to their ears.

My own prediction is that Corbyn will lead Labour to its worst election performance since Michael Foot was Leader.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 14, 2015, 10:58:26 am
The more they can tie him to Islamic-based Terrorism the better for them, and I suspect they'll find that easy.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2015, 11:16:03 am
Jeremy Corbyn had an overwhelming victory in the election for the Labour leadership.


And Cameron and Osbourne have opened a bottle of 1945 Chateau Mouton-Rothschild.

https://twitter.com/david_cameron/status/642984909980725248

I don't think so. In fact I think they are very frightened that they actually have someone with some backbone facing them now. Hence the ludicrous tweet  :laugh:
Time will tell, time will tell.
I doubt very much that they feel anything other than ecstatic at the news. Listening to the ranks of his own MPs expressing their lack of confidence in him must have been music to their ears.

My own prediction is that Corbyn will lead Labour to its worst election performance since Michael Foot was Leader.

So exactly the same as Milliband did then.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 14, 2015, 03:35:41 pm
I have to ask - how on earth can someone who defied their own party leadership over 500 times expect the party to now follow him?

My own opinion is that if David Milliband had been elected leader, we would now have a Labour goverment.  Instead, we have a right wing government without a credible opposition.

Out of interest, I was sent a voting form for the Labour leadership election. I chose not to return it as I do not support the Labour Party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 14, 2015, 03:48:33 pm
Nice to know that we now have a Shadow Chancellor who has said that IRA terrorists should be honoured.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2015, 04:16:16 pm
I have to ask - how on earth can someone who defied their own party leadership over 500 times expect the party to now follow him?

My own opinion is that if David Milliband had been elected leader, we would now have a Labour goverment.  Instead, we have a right wing government without a credible opposition.

Out of interest, I was sent a voting form for the Labour leadership election. I chose not to return it as I do not support the Labour Party.

With a massive landslide of members voting for him, how can they not follow him? His way is clearly the Labour parties way. It isn't your way as you do not support the party so your view is irrelevant to the direction the party follows.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 14, 2015, 04:38:58 pm
I have to ask - how on earth can someone who defied their own party leadership over 500 times expect the party to now follow him?

My own opinion is that if David Milliband had been elected leader, we would now have a Labour goverment.  Instead, we have a right wing government without a credible opposition.

Out of interest, I was sent a voting form for the Labour leadership election. I chose not to return it as I do not support the Labour Party.


With a massive landslide of members voting for him, how can they not follow him? His way is clearly the Labour parties way. It isn't your way as you do not support the party so your view is irrelevant to the direction the party follows.


Actually, my view is entirely relevant. I may not support the Labour Party, but I do support fairness and social equality, but not the politics of envy and spite. Nor do I support the Conservative Party, but I do have a completely relevant view on their policies and the way they govern the country. I want a strong and viable opposition for a proper democratic process; to see the Labour Party in complete meltdown does not support democracy.

Please don't suggest that my, or any other concerned persons view, is irrelevant.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2015, 04:45:22 pm
I said your view is not relevant to the way the party is run. If you want a say in how the party is run you need to become a member
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 14, 2015, 05:46:46 pm
I said your view is not relevant to the way the party is run. If you want a say in how the party is run you need to become a member

Born2run, you really do know how to win friends and influence people don't you......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 14, 2015, 09:01:06 pm
Now now! Everyone is entitled to their views. Politics and Religion are dangerous topics.
I might add that I wince at some of the comments I read  on this site (immigrants etc)
but I don't get personal about it. Perhaps I should confine my viewing to less
controversial aspects  from now on!
Maybe I should stop looking but what would that gain?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2015, 08:53:33 am
Now now! Everyone is entitled to their views. Politics and Religion are dangerous topics.
I might add that I wince at some of the comments I read  on this site (immigrants etc)
but I don't get personal about it. Perhaps I should confine my viewing to less
controversial aspects  from now on!
Maybe I should stop looking but what would that gain?

Don't wince, comment! Tell them what you think.   $walesflag$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2015, 08:55:56 am
Tell them what you think.   $walesflag$
That's the whole point of the Forum!  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2015, 08:58:06 am
I see in a trivia article that Jeremy Corbyn likes taking photos of manhole covers. I'm beginning to warm to the guy!!

"Mr Corbyn, for example, takes pictures of manhole covers because apparently there are interesting differentiations in them. "My mother always said there's history in drain covers. I take pictures of them. People think it's a little odd, but there we are," he said. "

Here's one of mine, taken in Castle Street, Beaumaris.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 16, 2015, 10:37:33 am
What I'm finding interesting is Corbyn's stance on the EU. He's obviously not keen on it and has refused to rule out campaigning for a UK Withdrawal in a Referendum.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 16, 2015, 04:28:13 pm
I said your view is not relevant to the way the party is run. If you want a say in how the party is run you need to become a member

Sorry for not replying earlier, I'm abroad at the moment enjoying some sun.

However, my question, to which I would still would like an answer, is how can Jeremy Corbyn expect the party to follow him when he has refused to conform to leadership direction some 500 times?

(And, for clarity and the avoidance of doubt, may I stress that that this question does not involve any criticism of the way the Labour party is run, or any suggestion of mine to change the Labour system.....)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2015, 04:47:23 pm
No leader should ever expect all his MPs to follow blindly. That is dictatorship not democracy. Jeremy will open up discussions and allow everyone a say in how the party goes forward.
He has already stated that he won't be pushing through some of his own personal agendas - such as abolishing the monarchy.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2015, 04:59:59 pm
But his previous voting record will make it  nearly impossible to deal with dissenting backbenchers. JC might well open discussions but by their very nature MPs are somewhat opinionated and likely to be more so in his case, since hardly any of them voted for him.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 16, 2015, 08:08:52 pm
It seems my last comments about a previous  peevish response was not acceptable ?
Perhaps you all know each other and that may make my comments worthless as it is perhaps friendly? banter.

The almost universal condemnation of JC by the media seems to creep in here too. For heavens sake
give the chap a chance. I watched him perform in pmq against Cameron with many years experience of putting down anyone with an opinion. For a first attempt he did quite well. At least he attempted to try to move away from the fiasco that normally happens by asking questions the public wants to have answers too.

One final point, I find these emoticons serve no purpose whatsoever !



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 17, 2015, 08:41:10 am
It seems my last comments about a previous  peevish response was not acceptable ?
Not at all, please keep your views coming.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 17, 2015, 03:01:11 pm

One final point, I find these emoticons serve no purpose whatsoever !

Oh I don't know??  :P

What have you got against poor old emoticons?  ?{}?

Anyway, I'm going out now...  ZXZ $drink1$
.... and the emoticons leave you all in no doubt as to where I'm going!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 17, 2015, 04:08:25 pm
It seems my last comments about a previous  peevish response was not acceptable ?
Perhaps you all know each other and that may make my comments worthless as it is perhaps friendly? banter.

The almost universal condemnation of JC by the media seems to creep in here too. For heavens sake
give the chap a chance. I watched him perform in pmq against Cameron with many years experience of putting down anyone with an opinion. For a first attempt he did quite well. At least he attempted to try to move away from the fiasco that normally happens by asking questions the public wants to have answers too.

One final point, I find these emoticons serve no purpose whatsoever !

Not at all, I like it that someone else with a bit of sense is commenting on the forum, keep commenting! L0L
The only person I know on the forum personally to any real degree is Fester and I deary wish I didn't  :P So no worries on that score.
I thought Jeremy did very well in PMQ, a very clever tactic to use questions from the public to which Cameron can't simply sneer at as usual.

Agreed on emoticons too!  :rage:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 17, 2015, 04:10:51 pm
I think they are   Ok'ish in small doses , but  they won't even work when I click or drag them ! viz http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/devil.jpg (http://threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/devil.jpg)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 17, 2015, 04:34:11 pm
Thank you born 2 run.
I think the Media is after him big style. They have given him a hard time over not singing. I thought he was there to show respect to  in the Battle of Britain remembrance,which he did . Has anyone read the words of the anthem recently?
 Now it seems to be  a question of whether he should kneel before the queen etc. 
At least he has given hope to the young!
 As far as I'm concerned he is preaching to the converted.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 17, 2015, 04:39:11 pm
Agree completely. The anthem is not called 'God Save our war veterans' so in what way was he showing disrespect to them?
The papers are tory owned whatever he does he will lose. If he had of sung the anthem there would have been equally negative reports calling him a 'hypocrite'
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 17, 2015, 04:46:43 pm
Spot on born2run!
I found this refreshing. I hope the link works

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/comment/talking-politics/jeremy-corbyn-should-be-applauded-for-refusing-to-121414328.html#blno9OZ
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 17, 2015, 04:59:08 pm
"The mudslide of outrage which hit Jeremy Corbyn after he refused to sing the national anthem during a Battle of Britain memorial service has been quite something to behold. Corbyn was branded a “disgrace” and anti-British by the press overnight, with the BBC leading with the story this morning.
Even Corbyn’s own side have turned on him over the issue. The shadow minister for women and equalities told the Today Programme this morning that Corbyn’s refusal will have “offended and hurt” people’s “feelings” while Labour peer Lord West said it was an “extraordinary” decision which “a large number of people in this country will be offended by”.
Now it may well be that there are a handful of people out there whose feelings are genuinely hurt and offended by the sight of a middle aged man standing in a room while not singing. However, I would suggest that their feelings must be in such a highly sensitive state that they would be best advised to board up the windows and never leave the house again.
I would also advise them to consider that there are several perfectly sane and reasonable reasons for Jeremy Corbyn not to have joined in with the anthem.
The first point to consider is just how absurd the lyrics of the national anthem are.
The first verse is essentially nonsense. The repeated call for a supernatural being to somehow extend his powers of unworldly protection over our hereditary ruler would be laughed at were they sung by a group of tribesman in the rainforest. That these words are still venerated by people in one of the most scientifically advanced nations in the world is bizarre.
The absurdity continues into the second verse which is a repeated call for the aforementioned supernatural being to rise up and “scatter” the enemies of our overlord. Originally the anthem here specifically called for an attack on her “Popish” enemies but was subsequently altered to “knavish” so as not to offend the many Catholic people living both here and abroad. Other variations on the anthem also called for supernatural help in order to crush “rebellious Scots”, something our current rulers may have wished to resurrect during last year’s independence referendum.
Now you may agree or disagree with these calls for God to help the Queen go on a rampage against her enemies, but it seems to me perfectly reasonable for Corbyn not to join in.
The second more important point to consider is that the anthem is an anathema in an era when around a fifth of the British population do not believe in the monarchy and around a third of the population do not believe in a higher supernatural power.
That these people should all be shamed into singing a celebration of two institutions they don’t believe in is ridiculous. That Corbyn should be mercilessly attacked by the nation’s press and even his own party for refusing to do so is shameful.
In fact, had Corbyn complied and sung the anthem he would no doubt have been labelled a hypocrite by the very same newspapers who are now labelling him a disgrace.
Personally I’m not sure whether I would have been brave enough to make the same decision had I been in Corbyn’s position. The sheer scale of political outrage that will now follow is clearly in excess of any slight breach in principle that singing the anthem would have caused. The Conservatives will no doubt now use the incident to label Corbyn as dangerously anti-British and a borderline traitor
However, I totally understand and respect why he chose not to comply. In an era when frontline politicians will do anything to avoid upset or controversy, it is refreshing to see someone stick so resolutely to their principles. Rather than being condemned for refusing to join in with Britain’s absurd and anachronistic national anthem, Corbyn should be roundly applauded."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 17, 2015, 05:54:02 pm
!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 18, 2015, 08:44:18 am
 :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 18, 2015, 08:51:15 am
Agree completely. The anthem is not called 'God Save our war veterans' so in what way was he showing disrespect to them?
The papers are tory owned whatever he does he will lose. If he had of sung the anthem there would have been equally negative reports calling him a 'hypocrite'
So, being as he has now agreed to sing the National Anthem at future events, he must indeed be a hypocrite, no?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-sing-national-anthem-6453805 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-sing-national-anthem-6453805)

Jeremy Corbyn will sing the national anthem when it is played at future events, Labour has said.

The Labour leader came under fire from his own MPs, monarchists and rival politicians after staying silent during the anthem at a Battle of Britain memorial service.

But a spokeswoman said he would "take part fully" if it is played at other events he's attending.

"I am telling you now, as someone speaking for the Party, that 'take part fully' includes singing," the spokeswoman said.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 18, 2015, 09:04:10 am
If it is true then YES
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on September 18, 2015, 09:10:17 am
I thought he was auditioning to become the next Prime Minster, not the next winner of Britain's Got Talent.


I have never voted Labour but, to me, he has come in like a breathe of fresh air, is not the stereotype politician (suit, tie, slick hair, public school and smarmy) that we have had for the past few years, and might make me reconsider where my next X will go.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 18, 2015, 09:12:51 am
That seems to be the effect he's having.  Mind you, we could always have the British National song... Jerusalem :-)))
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 18, 2015, 09:25:55 am
I have never voted Labour but, to me, he has come in like a breathe of fresh air, is not the stereotype politician (suit, tie, slick hair, public school and smarmy) that we have had for the past few years, and might make me reconsider where my next X will go.
The thing is, despite appearances, he still really is a stereotypical politican. He's never worked for a living in a proper job like the rest of us and, to my mind, is as out of touch as any other politician.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 18, 2015, 09:35:57 am
A full time Union official is as 'proper' a job as any other.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 18, 2015, 09:57:55 am
A full time Union official is as 'proper' a job as any other.
But he's been an MP for 32 years. He's on £74,000 a year salary. He claimed £158, 994 in Expenses in 2014/15. He lives in a £650,000 house in North London.

Hardly a member of the proletariat, I'm sure you'd agree....?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 18, 2015, 10:24:59 am
If he's been an MP for 32 years to me it means he's probably a very good MP!
I'm not anti being run by people who know what they're doing, he's doing a VERY important job and should be paid well for that.

The England football manager is on a few million a year isn't he? He's doing a job that's not very important and not doing it very well!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 18, 2015, 10:25:20 am
Quote
He claimed £158, 994 in Expenses in 2014/15.

I think that was for running his office. And a £650,000 house in North London is probably a Victorian Terrace, although I can't say for sure.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 18, 2015, 10:44:14 am
A full time Union official is as 'proper' a job as any other.
But he's been an MP for 32 years. He's on £74,000 a year salary. He claimed £158, 994 in Expenses in 2014/15. He lives in a £650,000 house in North London.

Hardly a member of the proletariat, I'm sure you'd agree....?

Let's be honest, £74k is not a partially good wage for London, and certainly not with 32 years experience, and £650k is nothing for a house in London.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Quiggs on September 18, 2015, 12:25:31 pm
If, ? He bought it when he he became an MP, he probably paid a fraction of the current value
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 18, 2015, 01:16:33 pm
Quote
Let's be honest, £74k is not a partially good wage for London, and certainly not with 32 years experience, and £650k is nothing for a house in London.

I suppose the £158,994.OO  expenses for 2014/15 claimed by this London  MP  may have helped with the household budget
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 18, 2015, 02:26:53 pm
I'm wary of Corbyn, for the reasons I've stated, but this from Wiki:

"During the 2009 expenses scandal, Corbyn was revealed to have submitted the smallest amount in expenses of any British Member of Parliament.[21][22] In 2010 he claimed the lowest among all 650 MPs."

is interesting. From the 'They work for you' site we see that most of his claim is for staffing and office costs.

http://www.parliamentary-standards.org.uk/ViewAnnualisedData2013.aspx?mcode=0252 (http://www.parliamentary-standards.org.uk/ViewAnnualisedData2013.aspx?mcode=0252)

£235k on staffing
£16k on offcie costs.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 18, 2015, 02:39:11 pm
Thanks for posting that info Ian, it balances up things a bit.     Do MP'S now have to declare who they employ?        It's not that long ago that it was revealed that some other MP  had  large expenses for staffing costs but it turned out that these employees  were family members.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 18, 2015, 02:44:06 pm
That's a fairly common practice, Hugo, but I'm guessing if there are any issues in that regard the various right-wing papers will quickly ferret them out.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 18, 2015, 03:27:44 pm
A full time Union official is as 'proper' a job as any other.

I disagree.
You see I well remember several colleagues I had in my career, who decided that the best way to actually avoid the manual shop-floor work, (for which they were actually paid), was to become Union Shop-Stewards and Conveners.

Oh, and they got paid handsomely for doing that in addition.   &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 18, 2015, 04:18:44 pm
A full time Union official is as 'proper' a job as any other.

I disagree.
You see I well remember several colleagues I had in my career, who decided that the best way to actually avoid the manual shop-floor work, (for which they were actually paid), was to become Union Shop-Stewards and Conveners.

Oh, and they got paid handsomely for doing that in addition.   &shake&

That's not what a full time Union official is. So as good as your memory is I'm afraid it isn't relevant to Mr Corbyn or indeed any other full time Union officer.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 18, 2015, 04:25:59 pm
It isn't something you can simply 'opt' to do because you don't like your own job. It's an independent position which you have to apply for like any other job. It has no relation to whatever job you do currently and you wouldn't be doing anything in 'addition' to what you currently do, it's a full time job of it's own

http://www.unitetheunion.org/growing-our-union/about-us/currentvacancies/regional-officer---multiple-locations/ (http://www.unitetheunion.org/growing-our-union/about-us/currentvacancies/regional-officer---multiple-locations/)

I think you are getting mixed up with voluntary workplace shop stewards (paid for by their own company) and people who work for the Union (paid for by the Union)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 18, 2015, 05:04:32 pm
Speaking (writing actually) as someone who remembers the union militants of the 1970's, including Reb Robbo (who I have actually met) that decimated British industry, that isn't good thought......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 18, 2015, 05:19:11 pm
So in your mind it had absolutely nothing to do with pathetic management,a lack of imagination and an
inadequate funding?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 18, 2015, 06:14:06 pm
If you care to look at this,you will see a list of MP's who employ their family. Guess who's name isnt on it!
Ha ha!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/11706561/One-in-four-MPs-employs-a-family-member-the-full-list-revealed.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/11706561/One-in-four-MPs-employs-a-family-member-the-full-list-revealed.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 18, 2015, 06:45:25 pm
So in your mind it had absolutely nothing to do with pathetic management,a lack of imagination and an
inadequate funding?

I am unconcerned about you transgressing my civil liberties of privacy by reading my mind as you are wholly incorrect. They were two sides of the same coin. Michael Edwards should have had a spinning bow tie and size 75 shoes. He certainly made the car.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 18, 2015, 08:17:34 pm
So in your mind it had absolutely nothing to do with pathetic management,a lack of imagination and an
inadequate funding?

I am unconcerned about you transgressing my civil liberties of privacy by reading my mind as you are wholly incorrect. They were two sides of the same coin. Michael Edwards should have had a spinning bow tie and size 75 shoes. He certainly made the car.

What about the squirting flower, the orange spikey wig, and the red nose??
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 11, 2015, 06:52:45 am
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11924431/Revealed-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11924431/Revealed-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html)

I don't think that there is any more to be said
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 11, 2015, 08:07:05 am
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on October 12, 2015, 04:50:11 pm
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.

I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

Meanwhile Labour party membership has increased by 183,658 more than the Tories have in total.
Tell me again why a man who has already doubled membership is doom and gloom for the party?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html)

As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 12, 2015, 04:59:33 pm
Quote
I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

No;  indeed, the Tories seem delighted.

Quote
Meanwhile Labour party membership has increased by 183,658 more than the Tories have in total.Tell me again why a man who has already doubled membership is doom and gloom for the party?
There are several reasons, but the two main ones are these: firstly, no one knows for sure how active these 'members' are, or how effective they'll be in the next election campaign. The second reason is simply votes. No one knows yet how Corbyn's apparent appeal will translate to the GBP en masse. You need millions of votes to win an election, not just a few thousand.

Quote
As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm

Here's the thing: it's comparatively early days, yet apparently there's such a lot of stuff about JC readily available the media seems spoilt for choice. To become a Government Labour has to appeal to millions of voters but when the JC novelty effect starts to diminish - and it will - people will start to look at his record with some concern. He's been around, and there's a lot of stuff out there about him. Even committed Labour people will start to become concerned.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 12, 2015, 05:03:13 pm
I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

Really?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33625612 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33625612)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 12, 2015, 10:48:28 pm
It doesn't seem to be going to well.....

.... taken from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34508959 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34508959)

Analysis: BBC political correspondent Eleanor Garnier

It was a long and difficult meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

One MP said it was the worst they had ever been to. Jeremy Corbyn was apparently "read the riot act" and said nothing. Another described it as "shambolic", lacking "any aspect of democratic politics".

A former shadow cabinet member told me it was "without doubt one of the most heated" PLPs and that "passions were running high". Others were clearly outraged at the shadow chancellor's change of plan.

As he left the meeting, former cabinet minister Ben Bradshaw branded it a "total shambles".

John Mann MP was furious, he shouted so loudly at the party's leadership he was easily audible in the corridor outside.

Despite that anger, a spokesman for Mr Corbyn said the meeting had been "warm and friendly" claiming the only disagreement had been on the need for there to be more discussion on the issue.

It all shows the seriousness of the cracks within the party and many in Labour will worry about how much worse it could all get.



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Michael on October 12, 2015, 11:10:29 pm
   Just to add a bit of humour to this most serious thread. I have very often been told that visually I resemble Bruce Forsaith, especially when he was on the London Pallidium, Cardew Robinson (the cad) and Rod Hull. I was once introduced to the audience in a hotel in Bournemouth (by prior agreement with the comedian) as being his "friend" without Emu. But the best one today is apparently I look like Mr Corbyn.  That cheered me up, I bet I'm considerably older than him.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on October 13, 2015, 09:57:02 pm
you do yourself an injustice mike, you look younger than him
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on October 14, 2015, 04:30:43 pm
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heartless-tories-laugh-heckle-jeremy-6633102 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/heartless-tories-laugh-heckle-jeremy-6633102)



Out-of-touch Tories laughed and jeered as Jeremy Corbyn asked a question from a young voter today, during a rowdy session of Prime Ministers Questions.

The Labour leader said he'd had 3,500 questions from members of the public who can't afford to buy - or even rent - their own home.


But heartless laughter rose from the government benches as Mr Corbyn raised the concerns of ordinary people.

A young man called Matthew sent in a question asking the Prime Minister if he really thought homes costing £450,000 could really be considered "affordable."

When the Tory side of the chamber descended into hilarity and heckling, Corbyn quipped: "This might be funny to some members but it's not funny to Matthew."


Matthew's question read: "I live in a private rented house in London with three other people. Despite earning a salary well over the median wage, buying even the cheapest of properties is well beyond my reach for years to come.

"Does the Prime Minister think it's fair, and does he really believe that £450,000 is actually an affordable price for a new home for someone on an average income to try and aspire to?"

It was a dig at the new Tory policy, announced in David Cameron 's speech to Conservative Party conference, to change the definition of "affordable housing" to include homes for sale for almost half a million pounds in London.


The Prime Minister said he wanted £450,000 to be the upper limit for affordable housing, and that he wanted to see new houses being built by councils, to sell off for £150,000 or £200,000.

Today was the second time David Cameron got a grilling from the public via Jeremy Corbyn .

In his "people's question time", the Labour leader called for members of the public to send in questions for the Prime Minister, and this week alone he was reportedly sent tens of thousands.

Corbyn's first question was from Kelly, a single mum of a disabled child, asking the Prime Minister how much worse off she'll be when the tax credits cuts bite in April.

Cameron dodged the question - arguing she'd be better off as a result of changes to the tax threshold and the so-called "living wage".

But Corbyn dealt the PM a blow by informing him Kelly would be £1,800 a year worse off.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 14, 2015, 07:32:30 pm
.............oh, is this topic now 'Socialists Workers Hansard'.......?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 15, 2015, 07:17:58 am
"Heartless Tories";  there's a phrase straight out of a 19th C novel.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on October 15, 2015, 12:24:07 pm
That's because we have a government straight out of a 19th century novel.

Osborne will be sending kids back up the chimneys before long  WWW
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 15, 2015, 04:06:26 pm
Quote
That's because we have a government straight out of a 19th century novel.

 ;D ;D ;D True...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 19, 2015, 09:18:55 am
Fewer buses on the roads?

"Bus services in Wales could be dramatically cut as a result of the UK government's spending review next month, it has been warned.

Bus use has been falling across the UK since 2008 but the drop has been sharpest in Wales. The Welsh government puts £25m a year into supporting bus services - a quarter less than in 2013. The Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) said the level of cuts could be "devastating".

"If the cuts are of the scale of what's been mentioned by George Osborne - we're talking 25 to 40%," the WLGA's transport spokesman Andrew Morgan said. "You take 40% of funding away from non-protected services like bus services then we're talking about probably another three, four, five per cent of all bus services in Wales will end up being withdrawn."

Kevyn Jones, managing director of Cardiff-based bus operator New Adventure Travel, said about half the routes he ran received some subsidy, but he expected the numbers to reduce in the future.

"The subsidised services are dwindling each year. There's less this year than there was last year and the same each year for the last five years we've been operating them," he added.

A Welsh government spokesperson said: "These grants are intended to supplement local authorities' expenditure on bus services and it is a matter for them how that funding is allocated. Under the concessionary bus travel scheme local authorities are responsible for determining the reimbursement rate for bus operators and for ensuring that operators are no better and no worse off."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on November 06, 2015, 06:04:11 pm
It's not very often, in fact I cannot remember it happening before, but I have to agree with Peter Mandleson's sentiments expressed on HardTalk being interviewed by Stephen Sackur.

If you missed it, it's here and I would recommend viewing it.

BBC iPlayer - HARDtalk - Lord Mandelson - Former Labour Government Minister, UK (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06n677p/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on November 18, 2015, 09:28:18 pm
Just when I thought that politicians could not get any worse......

 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-34863678 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-34863678)

It appears that they are as stupid as they are divorced from reality.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 19, 2015, 07:28:53 am
 ;D

Well, good track record for an aspiring politician: being dishonest...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on November 20, 2015, 08:45:40 am
It's a hard life, innit?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/12000288/We-earn-190k-a-year.-Do-we-need-to-sell-our-flat-to-afford-private-school-fees.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/12000288/We-earn-190k-a-year.-Do-we-need-to-sell-our-flat-to-afford-private-school-fees.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on November 24, 2015, 11:51:51 am
Because of my worry about not having an effective parliamentary opposition, I have been following recent political events closely and the vote on engaging in the bombing in Syria will be a pivotal moment for Corbyn, for whilst he will make opposition a party line, he himself defied the party line some 500 times.

Corbyn has certain policies and strategies that it would be difficult for any reasonable person to rail against and to me, it appears to me that Corbyn's main problem is not the media reporting (although that's part of it) but rather the way he has not yet learned to express his points simply and in a way that it is difficult to twist.   So, as regards the police reaction to terrorists, he should have simply said what he eventually said: that is, they already have the ability in law to meet force with force. Instead, he expressed a well founded view that the police should respond in a proportionate manner and he would not be in favour of a shoot to kill policy. This opened a door to allow misinterpretation of his remarks as being "soft" on dealing with armed terrorists.

Equally, his opinion about Syria and ISIS is, as I understand it, not to negotiate with ISIS but to assist the Syrians in coming to an agreement to end their civil war and then to deal with ISIS. This is a reasonable concept but he has not put any flesh on the bones of his proposal: how is he going to help bring about the end of the civil war and how does he see an emergent Syrian government dealing with an intransigent ISIS?

He is no longer a backbench MP who can simply be 'against things': he is meant to be a PM in waiting and as such, when he makes policy statements, they must be fully thought through, capable of explanation to the electorate and, preferably, costed. Until he starts doing this and carrying the bulk of the PLP with him, he will be attacked and picked to pieces by the media.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on November 24, 2015, 11:53:59 am
I think you make a very good point. Corbyn has been 'against things' for so long that he perhaps doesn't realise that he needs to suggest solutions himself...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 24, 2015, 02:44:49 pm
Corbyn must obviously be a good local  MP  or otherwise he wouldn't have been reelected so many times.   A natural leader, certainly not and my worry is that he will lead the Labour Party into political oblivion.
This Conservative government is one of the worst ever and that's saying a lot because they have had a few bad ones in their time, but while Corbyn is the Labour leader, regretably the Tories will continue to remain in power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on November 24, 2015, 02:55:10 pm
Corbyn must obviously be a good local  MP  or otherwise he wouldn't have been reelected so many times.   A natural leader, certainly not and my worry is that he will lead the Labour Party into political oblivion.
This Conservative government is one of the worst ever and that's saying a lot because they have had a few bad ones in their time, but while Corbyn is the Labour leader, regretably the Tories will continue to remain in power.

Hugo, you are categorically correct and I agree with every word, well put. And I don't think that you and I are the only ones that are worried.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 26, 2015, 10:55:08 pm
Jeremy Corbyn 'cannot support UK air strikes in Syria'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34939109 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34939109)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 27, 2015, 04:07:31 pm
Shadow cabinet seek to defuse Jeremy Corbyn Syria row.   Interesting words from Paul Flynn putting in a comparison to Michael Foot and Ed Milliband


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34944499 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34944499)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on November 28, 2015, 10:25:01 am
With both Paul Flynn suggesting that Jeremy Corbyn may have to resign and John McDonnell disagreeing with Jeremy Corbyn, the internal machinations of the Parliamentary Labour Party are an open secret and the party is imploding faster than even I suspected it would happen, and at a time when more than ever, we need a strong opposition. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 30, 2015, 11:00:31 am
The priorities of our MPs:

[smg id=3344]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 30, 2015, 11:01:25 am
...and comparisons

[smg id=3342]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2015, 05:18:18 pm
Those two postings are very interesting Ian and it just  shows how far apart the Labour And Conservatives are, as they only seem to have one thing in common and that is their concern for MP's pay and expenses.

The comparison between Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher surprisingly doesn't mention Thatcher's deliberate and successful attempt to destroy the coal mining industry and with it the inevitable disintegration of the close knit communities that depended on that industry.

If you look at the policies of the present day Parties, nothing has changed and they are both sticking with the same ideas.    What amazes me though is that  people actually vote for a Party that only looks after the interests of about five per cent of its own members
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on November 30, 2015, 08:05:44 pm
Problem is that we are all encouraged to vote for someone, but often there is no party that you can fully agree with so you have to vote for the one who has the least bad ideas in their manifesto. Often I think that democracy prevents real progress from happening!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2015, 08:23:12 pm
You could be right ME,  it's a personal thing after all.   I just wish that all the Parties put the UK'S  interests first instead of playing at Party Politics.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 01, 2015, 06:43:54 am
Quote
Often I think that democracy prevents real progress from happening!

Churchill probably had it right, when he quoted "Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all the others...".
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on December 02, 2015, 11:00:26 am
I saw a clip of Corbyn on the news the other night, he looked as though he was regretting ever standing for Labour leader.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on December 02, 2015, 01:13:49 pm
I have just watched Jeremy Corbyn's speech in the 'great debate', I may not agree with him, but he made some very good points that require a great deal of consideration and he conducted himself in manner that many other MP's should emulate. His none-confrontational style is given with dignity and sincerity but his desire for a negotiated peace is naïve to the utmost degree, you simply cannot negotiate with a group that promote the atrocities of Paris and 'Jehadi John'.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on December 02, 2015, 03:03:51 pm
...and comparisons

[smg id=3342]

And just like the Labour Leader of today, Mr Attlee thought it was financially prudent to spend his way out of trouble with money the Country didn't have.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2015, 03:10:12 pm
I've no doubt that Jeremy Corbyn is a very good constitutional MP and is sincere in his beliefs but that is as far as it goes.    A potential figure on the world's political stage he certainly isn't.
We don't live in Utopia and the sooner he realises that the better it will be for him and the Labour Party
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on December 02, 2015, 03:15:17 pm
Alan Johnson and Yvette Cooper have both made very good addresses to the house, I'm impressed with the debate so far. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on December 02, 2015, 10:49:03 pm
Well, the votes been taken and results declared. It's been a fascinating day watching the politics unfold, most MP's, the vast majority, have behaved with decorum and spoken eloquently and well, I'm pleased; regardless of the result of the vote, I think it was a good day for open democracy.

'Idiot Of The Day Award' went to Dianne Abbot, who when interviewed after the vote, talked utter rubbish and gave the impression that this had sanctioned endless carpet bombing of the Syrian people by Avro Lancasters.......           She really has a tenuous grasp on reality.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on December 03, 2015, 09:12:37 am
It was a good debate. Whether bombing IS in Syria will make any real difference is another matter, but I suppose it demonstrates our resolve to tackle the problem. Bombing is easy, finding a lasting political solution to the problems in that part of the world is far harder.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 23, 2015, 10:23:02 am
This (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/22/cameron-osborne-and-murdoch-back-together-at-moguls-christmas-knees-up?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media+Briefing+new+v2&utm_term=145665&subid=2664260&CMP=ema_546) is truly worrying.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 23, 2015, 01:55:35 pm
What is truly worrying Ian?     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on December 23, 2015, 02:02:13 pm
This (http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/dec/22/cameron-osborne-and-murdoch-back-together-at-moguls-christmas-knees-up?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Media+Briefing+new+v2&utm_term=145665&subid=2664260&CMP=ema_546) is truly worrying.

It is disturbing on several levels; that they actually attended in the first place, and that they did so brazenly, not realising how utterly jaw-droppingly their incredulous behaviour would be seen as. And, in the company of the flame haired witch who 99.9% of people believe that she knew, condoned and was wholly complicit in the telephone tapping scandal, no matter that her layers, paid for by her ex-boss, got her acquitted. (But that's juries for you....) 

Perhaps 'worrying' and 'disturbing' are not strong enough; scandalous seems to be more fitting.

This is why we desperately need a strong opposition, in these times, now even more than ever.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 23, 2015, 02:12:18 pm
Bosun, am I missing something?            Was there a link attached to Ian's statement?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on December 23, 2015, 02:29:34 pm
Bosun, am I missing something?            Was there a link attached to Ian's statement?


The word 'This' is a hyperlink.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 23, 2015, 03:01:06 pm
Bosun, am I missing something?            Was there a link attached to Ian's statement?


The word 'This' is a hyperlink.

Thanks  SDQ      :-[     

It stinks,  talk about pigs having their snout in the trough.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 23, 2015, 03:10:18 pm
I was watching a TV programme earlier in the week about Uber Taxis and that created a stink too.    All perfectly legal but the receIpts for the taxi fares displayed a country other than the UK.    Something similar to what  Amazon and a host of other large companies are doing.
Will the Cons do anything about it?      The answer is definitely no but it may crop up in their next manifesto in 2020 or thereabouts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uber-paid-no-corporation-tax-in-the-uk-last-year-a6701286.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uber-paid-no-corporation-tax-in-the-uk-last-year-a6701286.html)

Uber is under fire for paying no corporation tax in the UK on profits made in 2014
Uber in London paid no UK corporation tax on the £866,302 profits it made in the UK in 2014, according to the company’s accounts. The accounts show that the company did, however, book £22,134 tax charge for the year  – which a spokesman said was deferred taxation relating to previous years.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 02, 2016, 10:42:15 pm
Ukip leader Nigel Farage careered off a French motorway after a wheel of his car fell off. French police confirmed that the nuts on all four of the wheels had been deliberately unscrewed


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3382294/Nigel-Farage-s-car-wheels-sabotaged-assassination-attempt-Ukip-leader-lost-control-Volvo-wheel-fell-motorway-police-confirm-foul-play.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3382294/Nigel-Farage-s-car-wheels-sabotaged-assassination-attempt-Ukip-leader-lost-control-Volvo-wheel-fell-motorway-police-confirm-foul-play.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 03, 2016, 12:43:53 pm


Ukip leader Nigel Farage careered off a French motorway after a wheel of his car fell off. French police confirmed that the nuts on all four of the wheels had been deliberately unscrewed


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3382294/Nigel-Farage-s-car-wheels-sabotaged-assassination-attempt-Ukip-leader-lost-control-Volvo-wheel-fell-motorway-police-confirm-foul-play.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3382294/Nigel-Farage-s-car-wheels-sabotaged-assassination-attempt-Ukip-leader-lost-control-Volvo-wheel-fell-motorway-police-confirm-foul-play.html)

How are the French police ever going to interview several million suspects?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 03, 2016, 03:00:50 pm
That could be a problem, but at least 3.8 million people in the UK would be interested to know the facts
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 03, 2016, 08:02:38 pm
That could be a problem, but at least 3.8 million people in the UK would be interested to know the facts

They may well be interested, but it's doubtful that they would believe facts.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: squiggle on January 04, 2016, 10:34:29 am
They may well be interested, but it's doubtful that they would believe facts.

Short of hard proof, eg. someone caught on cctv, I don't know how one would find out if anything sinister did happen. Whatever, I would be inclined to think that with an event like this, there would always be some who view it as an assassination attempt and others viewing it as an attempt to capitalise of something that "just happened".

I've spent a bit of time looking through google for loose wheel nuts this morning and read a few of the reports/discussions etc.  The only other one I stumbled on where an assassination attempt was suggested involved another UK politician, Labour's John Mann - see http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2192796/Labour-MP-John-Mann-fears-life-car-wheels-sabotaged.html?ito=feeds-newsxml (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2192796/Labour-MP-John-Mann-fears-life-car-wheels-sabotaged.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

For the rest, the most common suggested reasons are incorrect tightening procedures following wheel fitting and (not that I recall us ever having done this...) and failure to get the wheel nut torques re checked after a prescribed time (eg. 100 miles) following the fitting of a wheel.  Other "culprits" seem to be corrosion, wheel paint wearing thin and knocks, eg. hitting the kerb.

I have also read suggestions that just one loose wheel nut can lead to the others coming loose or to the breakage of studs because of the extra stresses placed on them.

For me at the moment, I guess I try to keep an open mind and wait to see if anything else comes to light.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 04, 2016, 10:54:40 am
That could be a problem, but at least 3.8 million people in the UK would be interested to know the facts

They may well be interested, but it's doubtful that they would believe facts.

My reply was in response to the post that 3.8 million people would be interested, supposedly Nigel Farage UKip supporters, and their tenuous grasp of political facts.

With respect to loose wheel nuts, I can assure you that the 'knocking' that you get with a loose wheel nut gives ample warning of an issue, even before a car is driven at enough speed to cause any injury. You would do more damage to someone by throwing a crisp packet at them. The whole affair is a non-story. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: squiggle on January 04, 2016, 11:49:18 am
My reply was in response to the post that 3.8 million people would be interested, supposedly Nigel Farage UKip supporters, and their tenuous grasp of political facts.

Apologies for misunderstanding your position.


Quote
With respect to loose wheel nuts, I can assure you that the 'knocking' that you get with a loose wheel nut gives ample warning of an issue, even before a car is driven at enough speed to cause any injury.

Can't say we've ever experienced that one.  I do remember our car developing a knock on one way of cornering, probably near Chester/ A55.  We stopped and phoned my brother who was still/had been a mechanic. I don't remember if he suggested I checked the wheel nuts but I do remember his diagnosis of a wheel bearing proving correct.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 04, 2016, 04:48:49 pm
The average UKIP associate is so paranoid, I'm sure they half expect to get assassinated everyday.

Non story. NEXT
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on January 04, 2016, 07:41:34 pm
The average UKIP associate is so paranoid, I'm sure they half expect to get assassinated everyday.

Non story. NEXT

One wheel coming off, yes I can go along with you but with the other three wheels being loose at the same time, I think not.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 05, 2016, 09:22:33 am
To be honest, it reminds me of the time faux Hip Hop DJ, Tim Westwood paid someone to shoot him so he would have more street cred.

I can't think why anyone would want to shoot Tim Westwood and I can't think why anyone would assassinate Nigel Farage. Neither of them are that important.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 06, 2016, 05:22:30 am
Pointing out the obvious may seem banal, but lets be honest, the current Westminster government does not give a damn about North Wales, or indeed much outside the home counties. And, to be frank, the Welsh Assembly only pays lip service to the area. So, with the farce of the current Labour opposition disappearing into it's own orifice of a black hole, who is going to bring the government to account? The further the Labour party descend into chaos, the more the Tories move to the right and away from reality; a consequence being that rural outlying areas like North Wales will gradually be further ignored and more deprived.   

Or am I the only one concerned?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2016, 03:14:47 pm
You are spot on with what you have said Bosun but this situation between the north and south has been going on for years, in Wales since devolution has come in there is a definite division between the north and the south.
Politics is a hot topic but everyone is entitled to their opinion and what is right for one voter may not be right for another.   The present Tory government is one of the worst Tory governments to come into power and that is saying a lot.     How on earth they won the General Election is beyond my comprehension but that is democracy for you!
As for Jeremy Corbyn, he became leader of the Labour Party by a massive majority so we have to accept that,   But a potential PM or a leader in the world of politics he most certainly isn't.
A good MP,  like Michael Foot was, but extremely unlikely to lead Labour to win the next General Election.     The latest reshuffle in the party has turned into a farce and sadly it's making the Labour Party look stupid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35239232 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35239232)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 06, 2016, 03:32:42 pm
You are spot on with what you have said Bosun but this situation between the north and south has been going on for years, in Wales since devolution has come in there is a definite division between the north and the south.
Politics is a hot topic but everyone is entitled to their opinion and what is right for one voter may not be right for another.   The present Tory government is one of the worst Tory governments to come into power and that is saying a lot.     How on earth they won the General Election is beyond my comprehension but that is democracy for you!
As for Jeremy Corbyn, he became leader of the Labour Party by a massive majority so we have to accept that,   But a potential PM or a leader in the world of politics he most certainly isn't.
A good MP,  like Michael Foot was, but extremely unlikely to lead Labour to win the next General Election.     The latest reshuffle in the party has turned into a farce and sadly it's making the Labour Party look stupid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35239232 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35239232)

Obama was "extremely unlikely" to be elected president...and he was.

Politics is changing
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 06, 2016, 03:56:59 pm
Getting elected is one hurdle, doing something positive when you've been elected is something different.

At the moment I would say that Jeremy Corbyn is the Conservative Party's greatest asset to winning the next election.   

I just hope that I am proved wrong
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 06, 2016, 04:20:23 pm
If David Milliband had won the election as leader of the Labour Party instead of his half-witted brother who won with the backing of the unions, we may well, probably, in fact, have had a Labour government at the last election.

Whilst possibly principled and well meaning, JC has the all attributes of a future prime minister as a brussel sprout. It's extremely doubtful if he can hold the Labour Party together, let alone fight Britain's corner on the world stage.

PS    Er, don't mean to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be 'Politics are changing...?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: squiggle on January 06, 2016, 04:25:18 pm
Obama was "extremely unlikely" to be elected president...and he was.

Politics is changing

But don't know in what direction. Last time I looked a couple of weeks back it seemed a lot of Americans want Trump.

 In terms of recent UK politics, I have been voting Lib Dem.  Yes I feel they let us down but when you consider I live in a constituency that would be them or tories and that Norman Lamb seems to be an MP with an interest in the area he represents (I shouldn't feel that being so rare, should I?), I feel it my best option.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 06, 2016, 04:38:28 pm
If David Milliband had won the election as leader of the Labour Party instead of his half-witted brother who won with the backing of the unions, we may well, probably, in fact, have had a Labour government at the last election.

Whilst possibly principled and well meaning, JC has the all attributes of a future prime minister as a brussel sprout. It's extremely doubtful if he can hold the Labour Party together, let alone fight Britain's corner on the world stage.

PS    Er, don't mean to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be 'Politics are changing...?

If it's good enough for the Guardian it's good enough for the TTF

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/25/natalie-bennett-green-party-conference (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/sep/25/natalie-bennett-green-party-conference)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on January 06, 2016, 04:53:58 pm
As Natalie Bennett is only famous for having possibly the biggest brain fart in the history of electioneering interviews, I would not depend on her for correct English usage.

If people actually voted on a local level (as squiggle has done) for the best person to represent them as an MP rather than on the choice of a party and the party leaders tie/wife/hair style etc then we might have a more rational political system, but, the great British public......  In some areas, Basil Brush could stand and as long as he stood for the right party, he would be voted in.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: squiggle on January 06, 2016, 11:22:50 pm
Er, don't mean to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be 'Politics are changing...?

No. It's Politics They Are A  Changin'

(Or was it Times... I'm not a Dylan fan but hope this reference will be excused)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 07, 2016, 12:06:20 pm
Er, don't mean to be pedantic, but shouldn't it be 'Politics are changing...?

No. It's Politics They Are A  Changin'

(Or was it Times... I'm not a Dylan fan but hope this reference will be excused)

It is indeed the Times. I think he was referring to their internet subscription service :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 27, 2016, 12:14:24 pm
Google agreed last week to pay £130m in back tax to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), with an official saying that that was the "full tax due in law",

Isn't it time then that the tax laws were changed so that " We're all in it together"  like the Cons have said before

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35416812 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35416812)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 11, 2016, 08:33:18 am
Guto Bebb relegates to the uninformed those who raise questions regarding the TTIP - a highly secretive deal being conducted between Eurocrats and the US. He sees nothing unusual about the deal, but I suspect it is he who is uninformed, as one expose after another emerges. This last one is very interesting:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the_ttip/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the_ttip/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 11, 2016, 11:29:54 pm
Guto Bebb relegates to the uninformed those who raise questions regarding the TTIP - a highly secretive deal being conducted between Eurocrats and the US. He sees nothing unusual about the deal, but I suspect it is he who is uninformed, as one expose after another emerges. This last one is very interesting:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the_ttip/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the_ttip/)

You've referred to this before Ian, it seemed to be a big deal...what's it all about? (in summary) ... and should we be concerned unduly?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 12, 2016, 07:37:53 am
There's a good article about it all here:

http://www.theguardian.com/membership/2015/feb/18/guardian-live-what-is-ttip-and-how-does-it-affect-us (http://www.theguardian.com/membership/2015/feb/18/guardian-live-what-is-ttip-and-how-does-it-affect-us)

but essentially those favouring the deal (the wealthy, big companies, those who don't like environmental protections) argue that it's simply a trade deal to make it easier for Europe to trade with the US. They also argue, as does G Bebb, that it's no different to the many other trade deals done across the world.

Those opposing the deal do so on several grounds: because it's a mighty complex deal one of the factors needed to make it work is standardisation between US regulations and EU regulations, and if you look at some US regulations you'll see they're very different to ours in some important ways, one of which is food safety. Another is big pharma.

Another worry is that the US is home to the totally capitalist system, which is fine as far as it goes. But for us to complete the deal the concern is that we'd have to accede to the same degree of regulatory freedoms, and that could lead to some very undesirable effect.  The one most frequently quoted is that without significant safeguards, US companies would be able to take over the NHS. Mr Bebb not only thinks this is mindless scaremongering, but all the deal has been done in the open.  That, however, doesn't appear to be the experience of the German MP, Katja Kipping, who was only allowed to review the detailed documents, running to more than 300 pages, for 2 hours, in a locked room having had to surrender her mobile 'phone, any cameras and her jacket and bag before being allowed to see the text.

So, the big question remains: if the deal is as wonderful as Mr Bebb and others like him seem to believe, why has almost all of it been done in secrecy (it's been going on for more than two years, now - heard anything?) and why is it still so incredibly difficult to discover the details of what's happening?

As to the effects it could have on us as individuals, the big problem is that no one can say for sure what those effects will be. However, at the moment anything sold in Europe has to comply with strict safety regulations, and we have up to six years warranty on expensive goods (which many don't realise). The US standard warranty is six months, and sometimes a whole year.

Finally, and perhaps most worryingly, there is the little issue of ISDS.  ISDS stands for ‘investor-state dispute settlement’. This is a key issue with the TTIP proposal: ISDS allows businesses to take legal action against governments if they act in ways that infringe the trade agreement. This means businesses will have more of a say in public policies and may even sue if one country does something to impact profits - like increasing the minimum wage or freezing energy prices during a financial crisis.

An ISDS provision in Australia’s investment treaty with Hong Kong allowed tobacco giant Philip Morris to sue the Australia government for compensation of lost profits because of Australia’s plain packaging laws. Philip Morris was able to do this through its Hong Kong subsidiary, because of the ISDS provision in the trade treaty.

ISDS tribunals allow businesses to claim compensation not just on lost profits, but on potential loss of profits in the future. Currently, decisions made in one court can be challenged and taken to another; with ISDS, there is one court and one decision – and that can’t be challenged.

So, take your choice: greater trade freedoms with the US, the opportunity for a few to become very much richer, or loss of consumer protection, possible privatisation of the NHS or the government being sued if they try to stop it and - above all - extremely secretive negotiations.  Sound good?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: bigbadhenry on February 12, 2016, 09:14:10 am
If Bebb thinks there no differences to other trade deals he's living on another planet. The Tory government knows it will help with things like selling off the NHS and privatizing public service. I wonder if it will happen as the Germans and the French are not as keen as our government. The thing that really bad about it is it's being done in secret. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 12, 2016, 09:36:33 am
Another good reason not to let the EU interfere in our business...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 12, 2016, 03:54:42 pm
Thanks Ian, I'll peruse the document to find out even more
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2016, 12:39:11 pm
Cameron announces EU referendum date

When the hype settles it will be interesting to see what gains Cameron has obtained for the UK and what concessions if any he has had to make to get them.
No mention seems to have been made concerning the migration from Africa and Asia.   The UK is not part of Schengen Treaty and does not have to abide by the treaty at present.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35621079)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 20, 2016, 03:29:19 pm
The area around Venue Cymru was rammed today, and all parking spaces full in the swimming centre for the Labour Conference and the speech by Jeremy Corbin.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2016, 04:17:24 pm
I wondered why there was so much traffic in that area when we went past this afternoon.  I thought that it was something to do with the torrential rain that we had at the time.
There was probably more water outside the swimming centre today than in it.    :)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on February 21, 2016, 07:09:53 am
I've read some excellent articles in the past few days about the idiocy of Jeremy Hunt's 'Huntonomics', (is 'Jeremy Hunt' really rhyming slang...?) and the Government's ludicrous policies for the NHS. Both the BMJ and Private Eye have incisive observations of the shambles. One of the interesting points that has come out of the fracas is the little known, or reported, independent analyses that shows that 7 day NHS care will cost an initial £900,000,000 and require 11,000 more NHS staff, including 1,500 consultants and 3,500 doctors, not forgetting that every NHS employee will have to have their contracts re-written to provide for 7 day a week cover. (Obviously, it's not just the consultants, doctors and nurses that will have to cover 7 days, it's the drivers, porters, medical records, technicians, etc., in fact all NHS staff.)

Even more disturbing is the disgraceful manner in which Hunt has blatantly distorted figures, facts, and even death rates in a to try and justify his insane megalomania.     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 21, 2016, 08:12:14 am
I used to think he was merely out of his depth. Now, I think he's both evil and dangerous.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 22, 2016, 09:21:02 am
is it not desirable to have a proper health service that does not rely upon you becoming ill on a weekday?  ?{}?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 22, 2016, 09:55:53 am
Absolutely. But it's how he's going about it that raises concerns.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on February 22, 2016, 12:20:33 pm
is it not desirable to have a proper health service that does not rely upon you becoming ill on a weekday?  ?{}?

If you become ill at the weekend in the UK you have access to what is arguably the finest (free) healthcare in the world. It is only the 'routine' services, i.e. none emergency facilities that are not available at the weekend.

What needs to be changed are two things; firstly the NHS should be taken out of party politics, where each party vie to make the most elaborate claims about how they are going to 'improve' the NHS with ridiculas agendas and misconceptions. Secondly, peoples expectations need to be managed with reality. The NHS is the fifth largest employer in the world with over 2 million employees, a current budget of £117 billion, approximately 9% of GDP. Bearing in mind that 7 day a week services will increase costs by some 40%, can the UK afford the endless spending, when, actually, we currently do have a magnificent health care system.

The NHS is a bottomless pit where money is concerned, and aspirations need to sensibly be managed.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 22, 2016, 12:28:43 pm
If you become ill at the weekend in the UK you have access to what is arguably the finest (free) healthcare in the world. It is only the 'routine' services, i.e. none emergency facilities that are not available at the weekend.
Are you joking? I can speak from personal experience of a relative at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd that pretty much nothing in the way of treatment is provided at the weekend apart from nurse care. Barely a doctor in sight, no tests carried out, patients are just stuck on a drip and left till Monday.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on February 22, 2016, 12:34:26 pm
If you become ill at the weekend in the UK you have access to what is arguably the finest (free) healthcare in the world. It is only the 'routine' services, i.e. none emergency facilities that are not available at the weekend.
Are you joking? I can speak from personal experience of a relative at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd that pretty much nothing in the way of treatment is provided at the weekend apart from nurse care. Barely a doctor in sight, no tests carried out, patients are just stuck on a drip and left till Monday.  &shake&

You're right, had a similar experience, sat in the Hospital from about 3pm with the baby (after being referred especially by the out of hours doctor) It was gone 11pm when a Doctor was finally able see him, for all of five minutes and sent us home. Doctors are EXTREMELY rare on the weekend. Neil Kinnock gave the right advice years ago, best not to get ill at all, but if you absolutely insist on it then make sure you do it between Monday and Friday  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: andyCYD on February 22, 2016, 12:57:02 pm
Can someone point me to the analysis that says we need so many more resources in the NHS to make it a 7 day a week service. It has been mentioned here a couple of times, and I have heard similar elsewhere; but not seen any analysis.

Obviously there are more days to cover but no more patients. My logic suggests the overall resource requirements don't change much, just how they are deployed.

Thanks
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on February 22, 2016, 01:42:18 pm

Are you joking? I can speak from personal experience of a relative at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd that pretty much nothing in the way of treatment is provided at the weekend apart from nurse care. Barely a doctor in sight, no tests carried out, patients are just stuck on a drip and left till Monday.  &shake&
[/quote]

You're right, had a similar experience, sat in the Hospital from about 3pm with the baby (after being referred especially by the out of hours doctor) It was gone 11pm when a Doctor was finally able see him, for all of five minutes and sent us home. Doctors are EXTREMELY rare on the weekend. Neil Kinnock gave the right advice years ago, best not to get ill at all, but if you absolutely insist on it then make sure you do it between Monday and Friday  $good$
[/quote]

It's interesting to note that a singular experience at one hospital is enough to portray a generalisation of the whole of the NHS of England and Wales, and that experience is enough to make an expert in NHS Accident and Emergency Care. Of course it's not parochial. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Daihardwelshman on February 22, 2016, 01:58:15 pm
Having my family and recently  friends using the coronary heart centre at ysbyty clwyd, it has only been good fortune (if you can call it that)they had heart attacks
during the day as this facility is only open 9-5 monday to friday the reason for this is funding issues.

They were able to operate placing stents etc immediatly, however if they had been admitted after 5.00pm they would have been monitored over night
and seen the following morning, at a weekend who knows  !!!!!!! a ridiculous situation.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on February 22, 2016, 04:33:26 pm

Are you joking? I can speak from personal experience of a relative at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd that pretty much nothing in the way of treatment is provided at the weekend apart from nurse care. Barely a doctor in sight, no tests carried out, patients are just stuck on a drip and left till Monday.  &shake&

You're right, had a similar experience, sat in the Hospital from about 3pm with the baby (after being referred especially by the out of hours doctor) It was gone 11pm when a Doctor was finally able see him, for all of five minutes and sent us home. Doctors are EXTREMELY rare on the weekend. Neil Kinnock gave the right advice years ago, best not to get ill at all, but if you absolutely insist on it then make sure you do it between Monday and Friday  $good$
[/quote]

It's interesting to note that a singular experience at one hospital is enough to portray a generalisation of the whole of the NHS of England and Wales, and that experience is enough to make an expert in NHS Accident and Emergency Care. Of course it's not parochial.
[/quote]

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/158893/plea-as-significant-pressure-experienced-at-region-s-hospitals.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/158893/plea-as-significant-pressure-experienced-at-region-s-hospitals.aspx)

PATIENTS are being urged to consider whether they need emergency care due to a high level of demand at the region's hospitals.

Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board (BCUHB) said it is experiencing very high levels of demand at emergency departments at Ysbyty Gwynedd, Glan Clwyd Hospital and Wrexham Maelor Hospital.

Patients are having to wait "significant periods" in waiting rooms with ambulances also being delayed as a result of the pressure.

In a statement, the health board said: "We are doing all we can to maintain timely care for our patients but this is becoming increasingly more difficult at the present time.

"Can we please ask you to consider whether you need urgent or emergency care before arriving at our Emergency Units or calling for an ambulance.

"With your help and vigilance, it means that we are in a better position to provide the necessary care for those with true life threatening emergencies."

If you need further advice or help, contact NHS Direct Wales on 0845 46 47.

If you believe that your emergency is life threatening, dial 999.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 22, 2016, 07:58:44 pm
I saw that item on the BBC News tonight.
Hospitals 'throughout Wales' are extremely busy at present, and people are being urged to stay away if at all possible.

There was no detail or reasons given, it was strange to say the least.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 23, 2016, 08:07:10 am
Couple of points: the A & E system is widely abused in all hospitals - not simply Wales'. No one's quite sure why this is, but some think it's because GPs have created systems which prevent patients seeing them quickly and easily, while others believe the media are culpable (no surprise there, then) in generating hysterical reactions through stories regarding 'flu, long waiting times and other intangible threats to health. There are also a regular number who overdose. Suicide and attempted suicide rates have rocketed from what used to be a pretty high level of 800 per week across the UK to 5000 per week. That adds a significant number to the load.  Finally, we're an ageing population and when the very old, who are often doubly incontinent, present any sort of problem to the care homes, they're shipped off to A & E. The Hospital, therefore, becomes the last stop, and the ageing are an increasing issue.

The second point is that the Welsh Ambulance system is broken. Expect to wait an hour for a 999 responder on a weekday if you have a heart attack, and their ability to ferry patients between hospitals is severely compromised through poor planning and decision making.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2016, 07:50:36 pm
David Cameron came to power vowing to balance the books, protect the NHS and look after working people.

Here are 50 promises he has broken in five years of failure in Downing Street:
1We will balance the books by 2015
THE TRUTH: Britain still has a budget deficit of £90billion
2We will pay down Britain’s debts
THE TRUTH: George Osborne has borrowed over £500billion in five years - more than Labour did in 13
3We will get net immigration down to the tens of thousands
THE TRUTH: Net immigration is almost 300,000 per year
4No more top-down reorganisations of the NHS
THE TRUTH: £3billion wasted on the biggest reorganisation in NHS history
5We will improve your living standards
THE TRUTH: Families £1,600-a-year worse off than in 2010
6We will deport more foreign criminals
THE TRUTH: The number of foreign crooks on our streets soars 20%
7We will keep our nation’s defences strong
THE TRUTH: Army hacked back by 20,000 troops to its lowest level since the Napoleonic wars
8We will not raise VAT
THE TRUTH: VAT hiked to 20%, costing the average family £450-a-year
9We will protect the vulnerable from the cuts
THE TRUTH: Cruel welfare sanctions force one million people to use food banks
10We’re all in it together
THE TRUTH: Millionaires get a £100,000-a-year tax cut - the poor get the £15-a-week Bedroom Tax

11GP access promised 12 hours a day, seven days a week
THE TRUTH: Patients face a 10-day wait to see their family doctor
12We will get tough on illegal immigrants
THE TRUTH: Home Office loses track of 174,000 illegal immigrants
13We will get tough on tax avoidance
THE TRUTH: The Treasury is still missing out on an estimated £34billion a year
14We will stop the closure of A&E and maternity wards
THE TRUTH: Dozens closed or downgraded since 2010
15We will cut the number of MPs by 10%
THE TRUTH: Not a single MP has been cut
16We will get Britain building again
THE TRUTH: Lowest level of house-building since the war
17We will have more small schools with smaller class sizes
THE TRUTH: Number of infants in oversized classes up 200%
18We will protect front-line policing
THE TRUTH: 17,000 cops get the boot

There are another 32 examples but that's enough depressing reading for one night,  but what is more depressing is that despite how bad the Conservatives are the UK does not have an electable opposition to win the next General Election.  It's a sobering thought going into a referendum on the EU.     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 24, 2016, 09:12:51 am
The list you posted relates to England, Hugo, rather than Wales. Many of the issues listed (Health etc) are the responsibility of the Welsh Government here.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 24, 2016, 10:13:25 am
But that aside, it is a very damning list, and it re-enforces my lack of trust of ALL politicians.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 24, 2016, 12:14:48 pm
But that aside, it is a very damning list, and it re-enforces my lack of trust of ALL politicians.
Very true!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on February 25, 2016, 04:39:49 pm
What do you call 650 politicians chained together at the bottom of the River Thames?

A very good start!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 14, 2016, 11:49:34 am
To add in my own experience of dealing with the emergency services...yesterday, we had walked around the Orme and were walking back into town along Abbey Road. As we passed the junction with Church Walks, we heard a skidding sound and saw that a cyclist had come off his bike, landing face down on the pavement. He was initially unconscious and bleeding heavily from his face. I dialled 999 whilst my partner administered first aid and several other people then came to help. Although the Operator immediately put me through to the Welsh Ambulance Service, the phone was not answered for at least 5 minutes. When they eventually answered, the call was professionally dealt with and an ambulance was despatched. It was a further 30 minutes before the ambulance arrived. I assume that as I had mentioned that the cyclist had regained conciousness, it was afforded a lower priority?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on March 14, 2016, 08:04:54 pm
I'm waiting for an essential operation at the moment and was told last March, there was a 12 week wait, no worries I can handle that.

In June my GP upgraded my surgical requirement to Urgent and I was told there was now a 22 week wait, that was hard to understand but needs must.

So I checked with Ysbyty Gwynedd in September to be told there was now a 40 week wait what the Hell is going on?

When it got to 44 weeks of waiting I ask Janet Finch-Saunders to find out what was happening as I could get no sense out of anyone within the Welsh NHS.

That resulted in me being called in for a Pre-Op check so things are at last on the move at last my operation will now be done within the next 6 weeks, otherwise there is no point in doing it as there only valid for 6 weeks. (Most likely done to shut me up.)

I've now found out it will not be done in the next six weeks because the team who are due to operate on me have lost their dedicated ward and already have a six week backlog which I haven't even joined yet.

After a whole years wait with no end in sight I managed by a monstrous piece of good luck to get to see an English Consultant over the Border in Shropshire, he quite casually stated "Oh yes that's quite normal for treatment in Wales, they have an automatic 12 month wait built in to their waiting lists at the moment but they don't publicise the fact".

End result, I've given up on a failed Welsh NHS, controlled and funded by incompetent Welsh Labour idiots in Cardiff and by the Grace of God, plus 10 years of Military Service, I'm now down for surgery in an English Hospital, funded by Tory Politicians in London.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on March 15, 2016, 01:02:04 am
BlongB, whatever the politics of it, good luck my friend!
My experiences of the NHS in the last 10 years mirrors yours and that's BOTH sides of the border.

My motto is now, don't get ill, it'll be the death of you!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 15, 2016, 07:50:52 am
Quote
they have an automatic 12 month wait built in to their waiting lists at the moment but they don't publicise the fact".

That's not true. Most of the issues with the NHS in Wales revolve around the Welsh Ambulance Service, but increasing demand from an older-than-average population also plays a major part. But if you look at the increasing population in North Wales, and then look at when the hospitals were built you begin to see why they're having trouble keeping up. And it's worth pointing out the NHS funding has been devolved only comparatively recently, and the UK government of the day still holds the purse strings. Finally, despite the Tories saying NHS spending was 'ringfenced' numerous independent analyses have demonstrated that the the Tories have repeatedly cut the budget in real terms.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 15, 2016, 08:40:56 am
And it's worth pointing out the NHS funding has been devolved only comparatively recently
Control of the NHS in Wales was devolved 17 years ago. The Welsh Government has been responsible for how much is spent since then.

Here's a question for everyone...is it right that Welsh millionaires receive free prescriptions when money is apparently so tight? Same with the free bus passes. Surely it is not unfair to ask everyone to contribute  *something* towards these services?

Good luck with your Op, Blongb.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on March 15, 2016, 09:04:48 am
Yesterday a collision between a bike and car/van maesdu Ave by the golf course ,the biker went to hospital to get checked out not to Llandudno two minutes away but to glan clwyd ,llan has just opened a new £2/3 mill minor inj unit . That is another reason for waste and how you wait so long for an ambulance .
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on March 16, 2016, 12:15:02 pm
Quote
they have an automatic 12 month wait built in to their waiting lists at the moment but they don't publicise the fact".

That's not true. Most of the issues with the NHS in Wales revolve around the Welsh Ambulance Service, but increasing demand from an older-than-average population also plays a major part.


YES it is true, Hospital operating waiting lists have nothing to do with the Welsh Ambulance Service and the current state it's in, nor the fact we have an ageing population.

Increasing demand for Orthopedic Surguary  and it's cost which was devolved to Cardiff almost 20 years ago and is not nearly adequatly funded, that's the problem.

You need to look at the increasing number of non-Whalian Tourists who are hospitalised in North Wales, then look at the detremental effect that has on waiting lists and operations, to see why they're having trouble keeping up. The Welsh Government actively encourages people to come here to enjoy their outdoor pursuits but have failed in their duty to fund the concequences.  $angry$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 16, 2016, 02:16:47 pm
Quote
YES it is true, Hospital operating waiting lists have nothing to do with the Welsh Ambulance Service and the current state it's in, nor the fact we have an ageing population.

So you're saying the ageing population here doesn't make any difference to the demand for the NHS?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on March 16, 2016, 04:29:09 pm
Quote
YES it is true, Hospital operating waiting lists have nothing to do with the Welsh Ambulance Service and the current state it's in, nor the fact we have an ageing population.

So you're saying the ageing population here doesn't make any difference to the demand for the NHS?

I'm saying that for patients waiting for orthopedic operations, every time the Helicopter lands at Ysbyty Gwynedd or Glan Clwyd their waiting time gets longer and with no adequite funding provision in place the current situation will only get exacerbated. I'm saying this from personal expirence not to start an argument or cause a fight about the NHS.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 16, 2016, 05:03:00 pm
Elective surgery has long waiting lists everywhere, though; emergency treatment, however, seems pretty good.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 17, 2016, 10:40:00 am
I'm sorry to hear of your experience with the Welsh version of the NHS, it must be really frustrating as well as annoying to you.   I hope that everything goes well for you from now onwards.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on March 17, 2016, 02:25:55 pm
Elective surgery has long waiting lists everywhere, though; emergency treatment, however, seems pretty good.

Your so right Ian, the problem is with the wording, NHS Wales calls it Elective Surgery, where as I call it Remedial Surgery, needed to put right a major problem that was caused but not acknolaged by the origonal Emergency sugery.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 19, 2016, 11:53:36 am
Stephen Crabb replaces Iain Duncan Smith

Alun Cairns is replacing Mr Crabb as secretary of state for Wales.
Guto Bebb becomes under secretary of state at the Wales office, replacing Mr Cairns.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 23, 2016, 03:52:44 pm
The full detail of Plaid's pledge to cut council tax bills for most homes in Wales

In a speech at Cardiff Metropolitan University , the party’s Finance and Treasury spokesman Adam Price said the “grossly unfair” council tax system needed to be reformed, with savings of up to £400 for homes on the lowest bands.

But anyone living in a home in council tax bands E to I would have to pay up around a third more to fund the pledge - up to £600 a year for someone in a Band E house and £1,000 a year for someone in a top-band home.

198,000 households in Band A would see their liability halved, saving £400 per house,
A further 287,000 homes in Band B would save £360
Some 295,000 homes in Band C would save £160
Mr Price said "the households in the very highest bands will pay more, around a third more, phased in over a number of years".
That would mean homes in bands E to I paying around 33% more.
                         
 More details.                        http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/full-detail-plaids-pledge-cut-11084937 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/full-detail-plaids-pledge-cut-11084937)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 23, 2016, 04:37:30 pm
I always thought that people used public services, not houses? Its a great way to encourage anyone with any money to leave Wales.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on March 23, 2016, 06:03:29 pm
I always thought that people used public services, not houses? Its a great way to encourage anyone with any money to leave Wales.
I wouldn't have it on my mind, they'll never get into power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 28, 2016, 12:19:13 pm
The new Secretary of State for Wales has set out his top priorities as he takes his seat.

Writing in The Sunday Times, Alun Cairns put business at the heart of his office and emphasised how important North Wales is to building Wales into a prosperous, stable economy.

The Vale of Glamorgan MP admitted that the first thing he did on becoming Secretary of State was to ask his officials to arrange a meeting in North Wales for this week with business leaders and representatives from local authorities and higher education to kick-start discussions for a growth deal.

“My North Wales-born No 2 Guto Bebb is a natural champion for the region and he will in addition ensure that North Wales gets the best from being part of the northern powerhouse, that economic unit which now stretches from North Wales to Newcastle,” he added.
“I want to see the same spirit of co-operation and focus for North Wales that we saw in Cardiff.    &shake&

MORE....  http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-knew-straight-away-wanted-11100452 (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/i-knew-straight-away-wanted-11100452)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 15, 2016, 07:14:00 am
The EU Big Five launch tax crackdown

In principle it is an excellent idea and if "we're all in it together" then it should lead to a fairer society and everyone would pay the correct amount of tax according to their earnings.
I understand that Dodgy Dave and even dodgier George have revealed what purports to be the only income made available to them but there are so many loopholes open to the wealthy to use, that they can hide behind them and no one knows any difference.
Will they close these loopholes? only time will tell but as a company George Osborne is associated with is alleged to have avoided paying £2M in tax by using these loopholes then it seems unlikely.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36049817 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36049817)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 19, 2016, 12:16:59 pm
I received two letters this morning, one was from the Rt Hon David Cameron MP  on behalf of the Welsh Conservative Campaign Headquarters.

The other was from the NHS on behalf of the Bowel Screening Wales

Both talking on the same topic but at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I do wish the Conservatives would use a softer type of paper so it could at least be recycled.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on April 24, 2016, 02:15:21 pm
Wonderful......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on April 25, 2016, 02:39:16 pm

Calling the man a toad is unfair to toads.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/24/jeremy-corbyn-power-sharing-deal-falkland-islands-argentina (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/24/jeremy-corbyn-power-sharing-deal-falkland-islands-argentina)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 25, 2016, 09:26:57 pm
Jeremy Corbyn has told Argentinian diplomats he wants a Northern Ireland-style power-sharing deal for the Falkland Islands, according to reports.

Argentina’s outgoing ambassador to London, Alicia Castro, said the Labour leader “shares our concerns” and “he is one of ours”.

I wonder what his views are on Gibraltar?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 06, 2016, 09:36:23 am
At the the of posting it looks as though UKIP will have gained 6 seats.  The loss of Leighton Andrews' seat was well deserved: Labour can't afford to have liabilities such as him on board as they're struggling as it is with JC's 'leadership'. But it looks like it's almost a re-run of the Labour - PC coalition for the next few years.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 06, 2016, 12:21:49 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html)

  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 06, 2016, 12:33:35 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html)

  $good$
If Labour can't win in Scotland, then they have zero chance of winning a UK election.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 06, 2016, 02:31:25 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/elections-2016-labour-wins-key-southern-england-councils-in-boost-for-jeremy-corbyn-a7016121.html)

  $good$
If Labour can't win in Scotland, then they have zero chance of winning a UK election.

Why not? The Tories didn't win in Scotland.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 06, 2016, 03:20:58 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

It was a bad night everywhere else. Labour should have made enormous gains, given the egregious Government we have, but it didn't. It's managed to do something quite astonishing in UK politics: make no progress during the mid-term of an unpopular government and even lose ground in what should be a Labour stronghold.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 06, 2016, 03:22:31 pm
Quote
Why not? The Tories didn't win in Scotland.
No, but they wiped Labour out and performed yet another first for any party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 06, 2016, 03:37:31 pm
And while we're on the subject of egregious, Neil Hamilton has snaked his way onto the WA through UKIP. This is someone who has taken money for asking questions in Parliament, performed a Nazi salute in Germany by his own admission, sued numerous papers and then withdrawn the actions, has an 'interesting' history with Movimento Sociale Italiano, an Italian neo-fascist party led by one of Benito Mussolini's ex-ministers, Giorgio Almirante, membership of the Eldon League, the Powellite faction of the Monday Club and whose track record of being excoriated in the press and being described on the front pages as a 'Liar and a cheat is widespread. Lots of fascinating information here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Hamilton_%28politician%29#BBC_libel_case_.281984_to_1986.29)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 06, 2016, 04:41:36 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

It was a bad night everywhere else. Labour should have made enormous gains, given the egregious Government we have, but it didn't. It's managed to do something quite astonishing in UK politics: make no progress during the mid-term of an unpopular government and even lose ground in what should be a Labour stronghold.

I disagree, this is a good result overall. http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/05/jeremy-corbyn-has-defied-odds-and-embarrassed-his-critics (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/05/jeremy-corbyn-has-defied-odds-and-embarrassed-his-critics)

I don't know about 'enormous gains' everybody was talking about a disaster for Labour and it's been FAR from it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 06, 2016, 04:42:28 pm
And while we're on the subject of egregious, Neil Hamilton has snaked his way onto the WA through UKIP. This is someone who has taken money for asking questions in Parliament, performed a Nazi salute in Germany by his own admission, sued numerous papers and then withdrawn the actions, has an 'interesting' history with Movimento Sociale Italiano, an Italian neo-fascist party led by one of Benito Mussolini's ex-ministers, Giorgio Almirante, membership of the Eldon League, the Powellite faction of the Monday Club and whose track record of being excoriated in the press and being described on the front pages as a 'Liar and a cheat is widespread. Lots of fascinating information here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Hamilton_%28politician%29#BBC_libel_case_.281984_to_1986.29)

Sounds like the perfect candidate for the bonkers Kippers if you ask me  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 06, 2016, 09:14:39 pm
Quote
I disagree, this is a good result overall.

Liam Young is extremely Pro-Corbyn, and hardly objective. And the consensus is that Labour 'wasn't as bad as expected'. That's rather a long way from 'doing well'. Even Corbyn used the phrase 'holding on', but for an opposition during a mid-term with an unpopular government whose splits and divisions are extremely obvious not to pick up between 100 and 200 seats across the country is a failure, by any standards. Sadly, because disaster was averted no one in the Labour Party will mount a leadership challenge until after Labour is wiped out at the next general election. Then Corbyn might resign and we might get someone who knows what they're doing.

Sadly, this isn't even new. The list of missed opportunities and out of touch leaders in Labour is staggering: Ed Milliband, Gordon Brown, Neil Kinnock and now Corbyn. The even sadder thing is some Labour voters are voting UKIP, presumably unaware that UKIP represents the far-right.


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 06, 2016, 10:08:07 pm
Ian, that is probably because it is quite natural for working class, 'socialist' folk to have certain 'far right' opinions. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 06, 2016, 10:17:50 pm
Struggling in Scotland maybe, not a bad night at all everywhere else. Especially giving the press bashing and anti-Semitism rubbish they've been faced with

Of course it's rubbish. Even with Labour MP Naz Shah, the ex major of London Ken Livingstone and 50 other Labour Party members suspended for anti-Semitism, besides Jeremy Corbin's own anti-Semitic poisonous conduct...........

Really?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 06, 2016, 10:31:24 pm
... also, any Assembly Member crowing about their 'success' would do well to remember that they only polled a percentage of the 45% of folk who could be bothered to turn out.
Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Giggly girl on May 06, 2016, 10:42:40 pm
The mess that is posing as the Betsi Cadwaladr board, affected the outcome of the elections in this area. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 07, 2016, 08:32:42 am
Quote
Ian, that is probably because it is quite natural for working class, 'socialist' folk to have certain 'far right' opinions. 

That's a very good point, Fester, and that's exactly how the National Socialist party in Germany gripped power in the 1930s.

I suppose the worrying aspect of the election of Corbyn is that it's a symptom of the country becoming fractured into extremes, once again. As things go Osborne will succeed Cameron, and I suspect he's sightly to the right of Mussolini. For a blissful while UK politics had become centrist but no longer, I suspect. We don't learn, as a population, do we? Divisions over race, religion, wealth, beliefs - they've all been the cause of conflict - sometimes bloody conflict - throughout the world. Seems that's exactly where we're heading.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 07, 2016, 08:33:25 am
Giggly girl - I couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 07, 2016, 08:35:04 am
... also, any Assembly Member crowing about their 'success' would do well to remember that they only polled a percentage of the 45% of folk who could be bothered to turn out.
Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

That reminds me that Labour saw swings against it almost everywhere.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 07, 2016, 06:26:13 pm
And while we're on the subject of egregious, Neil Hamilton has snaked his way onto the WA through UKIP. This is someone who has taken money for asking questions in Parliament, performed a Nazi salute in Germany by his own admission, sued numerous papers and then withdrawn the actions, has an 'interesting' history with Movimento Sociale Italiano, an Italian neo-fascist party led by one of Benito Mussolini's ex-ministers, Giorgio Almirante, membership of the Eldon League, the Powellite faction of the Monday Club and whose track record of being excoriated in the press and being described on the front pages as a 'Liar and a cheat is widespread. Lots of fascinating information here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Hamilton_%28politician%29#BBC_libel_case_.281984_to_1986.29)
Sounds like a typical politician....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 07, 2016, 10:47:24 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/06/jeremy-corbyn-leadership-labour-mps-elections (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/06/jeremy-corbyn-leadership-labour-mps-elections)

Two Labour MP's state their position.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 12:23:46 pm
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.

I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

Meanwhile Labour party membership has increased by 183,658 more than the Tories have in total.
Tell me again why a man who has already doubled membership is doom and gloom for the party?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html)

As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm.

Just wondering what your current opinion of Corbyn is, B2R? Still behind him?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 01, 2016, 12:25:32 pm
Just how bad must he have felt when he was announced in Parliament the other day, and as he rose to his feet everyone just laughed at him.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's got to hurt.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 01, 2016, 12:27:38 pm
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.

I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

Meanwhile Labour party membership has increased by 183,658 more than the Tories have in total.
Tell me again why a man who has already doubled membership is doom and gloom for the party?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html)

As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm.

Just wondering what your current opinion of Corbyn is, B2R? Still behind him?

Me and the majority of the Labour grass roots membership. ££$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 01, 2016, 12:31:20 pm
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.

I've not heard a single word of dissent or regret from anyone who voted for Corbyn. I will let you know if I do $good$

Meanwhile Labour party membership has increased by 183,658 more than the Tories have in total.
Tell me again why a man who has already doubled membership is doom and gloom for the party?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/more-people-have-joined-labour-since-the-election-than-are-in-the-entire-conservative-party-a6686001.html)

As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm.

Just wondering what your current opinion of Corbyn is, B2R? Still behind him?

Me and the majority of the Labour grass roots membership. ££$
I do think he's been treated abysmally by his MPs.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 02, 2016, 08:28:51 am
I suspect a lot of those whose belief in Corbyn's novelty value led them to vote him in will find their faith sorely tested over the coming months.

As for your scaremongering terrorist tales, keep them coming it clearly is not doing us any harm.

Just wondering what your current opinion of Corbyn is, B2R? Still behind him?

Me and the majority of the Labour grass roots membership. ££$
I do think he's been treated abysmally by his MPs.  &shake&

Been thinking about that, Dave. On the face of it, it seems only right that MPs support their leader through thick and thin, as it were. Buty I suspect there are two main reasons why things have turned out as they have done.

The first is simply that MPs want to keep their jobs. There's a general feeling that Corbyn doesn't have national appeal, yet remains content to keep voicing the policies which nearly saw Labour extinguished in the '80s.  But the second one is less self-serving. In order to achieve any sort of change - political, financial or social - a party must win power. Corbyn evokes fierce loyalty amongst his constituency members, and among those who deem themselves activists, which is great - as far as it goes. No one doubts that he's a great grass-roots man. But if he's not capable of leading the party to a national victory, then it doesn't matter what he believes: nothing will happen until Labour wins power.

The country as a whole doesn't like extreme politicians: the Tories discovered that with Margaret Thatcher, whose legacy left them largely unelectable for years, and Labour discovered it with Foot's tragic 1983 manifesto, described as 'the longest suicide note in history'.

Grandiose ideas are great, committed socialists are great but until the party wins power nothing will ever happen.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 04, 2016, 10:48:02 pm
Tom Watson to meet unions over Jeremy Corbyn leadership

I'm afraid that Jeremy Corbyn has done more damage to the Labour Party than anything the Tories have ever done.   He's the worst Labour leader that I can ever remember and even worse than Michael Foot which is saying something.
If Corbyn really had Labour's interests at heart he would do the decent thing and resign



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36701288 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36701288)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 05, 2016, 01:10:02 pm
Some very disturbing information about Corbyn and his extremist links - perhaps the naysayers were right  $angry$

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/6-links-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about/
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 05, 2016, 01:50:00 pm
Priceless  _))* _))* _))* _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 05, 2016, 02:12:45 pm
"Why does Corbyn condone childhood obesity? Is it because, as PM, he would require a generation of hefty youngsters to pull carts as they toil in his socialist salt mines?"  ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 13, 2016, 06:53:54 pm
At a time when the Labour party is desperately required as a strong opposition, it's tragic to see it publicly tearing itself apart. I have commented on Angela Eagle before; she has put up some spirited debates in the House and is good, strong, practical and pragmatic character, I think that she would make a good choice as leader and a foil to Mrs May. The sooner the disgraceful farce is over, the better for the whole country - but it won't wholly settle, the Labour party has always been renowned for it's nasty simmering element to be able to bubble up again. And, if the Labour party does split, that's the end of any proper Parliamentary Labour Party opposition to the Tories for a decade.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 13, 2016, 08:12:19 pm
And, why did Jeremy Corbyn vote against a secret vote by the  National Executive? Ask Johanna Baxter, I listened to her on T'he World At One' today and read the  Guardian's online interview with her.

Totally and utterly disgraceful.

My original view of Corbyn has changed; I had considered him a principled, decent MP. He has been shown to be a deluded megalomaniac and a contemptible thug.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 14, 2016, 01:26:19 pm
And, why did Jeremy Corbyn vote against a secret vote by the  National Executive? Ask Johanna Baxter, I listened to her on T'he World At One' today and read the  Guardian's online interview with her.

Totally and utterly disgraceful.

My original view of Corbyn has changed; I had considered him a principled, decent MP. He has been shown to be a deluded megalomaniac and a contemptible thug.

Eh??
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on July 14, 2016, 01:35:53 pm
And, why did Jeremy Corbyn vote against a secret vote by the  National Executive? Ask Johanna Baxter, I listened to her on T'he World At One' today and read the  Guardian's online interview with her.

Totally and utterly disgraceful.

My original view of Corbyn has changed; I had considered him a principled, decent MP. He has been shown to be a deluded megalomaniac and a contemptible thug.

Eh??


They voted for the leadership ballot to be secret because of the bullying and intimidation against the anti-Corbyn brigade. She says that as Jeremy Corbyn voted against a secret ballot that can only be interpreted that he endorses bullying and intimidation.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 14, 2016, 02:31:23 pm

One video of an interview with Johanna Baxter is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGQSoVntGCg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGQSoVntGCg)

A report of the WatO interview, and some links to other reaction: https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/77254/labour-nec-member-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-failing (https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/77254/labour-nec-member-accuses-jeremy-corbyn-failing)

The Guardian's report:  http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/13/corbyn-endorsed-bullying-by-voting-against-secret-ballot (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/13/corbyn-endorsed-bullying-by-voting-against-secret-ballot)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 14, 2016, 04:57:28 pm
Secret Ballot  L0L

It's not the Freemasons you know.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 14, 2016, 04:59:26 pm
I'm not going to look, it's pointless, sick to my back teeth of politicians, Brexit, the lot.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 14, 2016, 07:05:17 pm
Secret Ballot  L0L

It's not the Freemasons you know.

Fester, I can empathise with your stance; just when you think it can't get worse, it does.

But, B2R, I'm surprised at your factitious comment as this really does show your political hero as a scheming thug, surely against yours (and mine) sense of decency? What happened to his 'kinder politics' policy? It appears to have disappeared the first time he is under threat from his own side.     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 08:11:09 am
JC is having the same ripple effect on Labour party members as Brexit had on closet racists. In effect, by demonstrating his total disregard for the MPs who oppose him and turning a blind eye to the growing intimidation of those MPs he's showing he was never fit to be a party leader in the first place. The Tories are now regrouping and unless he realises that Labour with him in charge has no chance whatsoever of gaining power by legitimate means we'll be stuck with right wing government for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 08:50:54 am
And now Labour has suspended all local meetings. (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base) This is rapidly moving from the depressing to the disturbing.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 08:59:02 am
And now Labour has suspended all local meetings. (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base) This is rapidly moving from the depressing to the disturbing.

This isn't true. I had an e mail from the CLP last night confirming this.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 09:00:52 am
Secret Ballot  L0L

It's not the Freemasons you know.

Fester, I can empathise with your stance; just when you think it can't get worse, it does.

But, B2R, I'm surprised at your factitious comment as this really does show your political hero as a scheming thug, surely against yours (and mine) sense of decency? What happened to his 'kinder politics' policy? It appears to have disappeared the first time he is under threat from his own side.     

I disagree, I believe everyone should be held accountable. We do not govern with secret ballots, this is unprecedented and plain wrong.  I still respect Jeremy's open and honest approach as much as I ever have this only cements it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 10:14:14 am
Quote
I believe everyone should be held accountable.

Accountable, yes, but there's good reason why voting in this country is done by secret ballot. And while I can honestly appreciate your unswerving loyalty to the leader can you not see where this is headed?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 03:22:31 pm
And now Labour has suspended all local meetings. (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/15/labour-death-spite-bullying-working-class-base) This is rapidly moving from the depressing to the disturbing.

This isn't true. I had an e mail from the CLP last night confirming this.

update they've changed their minds it has been cancelled - sad state of affairs  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 03:24:05 pm
Quote
I believe everyone should be held accountable.

Accountable, yes, but there's good reason why voting in this country is done by secret ballot. And while I can honestly appreciate your unswerving loyalty to the leader can you not see where this is headed?

Nobody is condoning intimidation. Those that are doing the intimidation will do it anyway, making it secret only increases their target list.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 15, 2016, 03:34:09 pm
With the tragic events that happened in France last night it's important that the UK has a strong government and also an equally strong opposition as the same thing could happen here in the UK.
Whatever anyone thinks of Teresa May, at least she appears to be a strong leader and has said that she wants a better UK for everyone.
Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand has no direction and will only lead the Labour Party into the political wilderness.    When a drone from the USA killed Jihadi John, Corbyn's reply was "that the USA should have tried to capture him instead"
That's a comment from a delusional person who ultimately wants to be the PM.     
Thank goodness he is  unelectable and that will never happen.
Surely even the most die hard Labour supporter can see the damage he is doing to the Labour Part.  I just hope the damage is not unrepairable
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 04:01:08 pm
With the tragic events that happened in France last night it's important that the UK has a strong government and also an equally strong opposition as the same thing could happen here in the UK.
Whatever anyone thinks of Teresa May, at least she appears to be a strong leader and has said that she wants a better UK for everyone.
Jeremy Corbyn on the other hand has no direction and will only lead the Labour Party into the political wilderness.    When a drone from the USA killed Jihadi John, Corbyn's reply was "that the USA should have tried to capture him instead"
That's a comment from a delusional person who ultimately wants to be the PM.     
Thank goodness he is  unelectable and that will never happen.
Surely even the most die hard Labour supporter can see the damage he is doing to the Labour Part.  I just hope the damage is not unrepairable

Yes he increased membership by over 50% - such damage! - I don't think it's him that's delusional  _))*

Membership, January 10th 2016: 388,407

Membership, May 6th 2015: 201,293
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 04:12:03 pm
To be fair we don't know that it was JC responsible for the membership increase. During difficult times it's traditional for voters to become more active in party politics.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 15, 2016, 04:16:30 pm
It's certainly a coincidence.  :o But I know for a fact that was the sole reason for myself and everyone I know in joining or in my case rejoining the Labour party.
If Corbyn is pushed out, God forbid. It will be the reason we all leave en masse and the membership will drop to an all time low and then the party REALLY will be finished.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 04:56:03 pm
Had you become disillusioned by Blair's centrist policies?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 15, 2016, 05:14:35 pm
It's certainly a coincidence.  :o But I know for a fact that was the sole reason for myself and everyone I know in joining or in my case rejoining the Labour party.
If Corbyn is pushed out, God forbid. It will be the reason we all leave en masse and the membership will drop to an all time low and then the party REALLY will be finished.

Are you being serious?         If Jeremy Corbyn owned a brewery he would be bankrupt in no time at all.      The days of the loony left have long gone and only time will tell who is delusional. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 15, 2016, 07:46:08 pm
That may be true, Hugo, but across the world democratic nations are swinging to the extremes. Look at the US.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 15, 2016, 09:40:18 pm
Really glad I'm not young Ian, the good years are truly behind us.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 16, 2016, 08:08:08 am
I think I tend to agree. I can't remember a time when the world as a whole has been in such turmoil.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 16, 2016, 10:49:30 am
Mrs May has come in at a time when the Parliamentary Labour Party is in complete disarray, with their idiot leader unmoved by a vote of 172-40 of no confidence in him, yet he still thinks he can run a robust parliamentary opposition to the Tories. So, Mrs May produces a cabinet of right-wing tendencies not seen since Mrs Thatcher, (Hunt still in post for God's sake and Johnson as Foreign Secretary.... you couldn't make it up...) and the Labour party with it's efficient, loved and admired leader is too busy ripping itself apart to react.

But to some people, Jeremy Corbyn is still a godlike figure who can do no wrong......

Thanks to beloved Jeremy, you will now have a right-wing Tory government for a decade.

Well done JC. You have achieved something.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 16, 2016, 04:58:01 pm
I heard today from an extremely reliable source that the appointment of Boris Johnson was a total mistake. Theresa May had made a list of cabinet positions and against Boris Johnson's name had written 'F Off'.

A Civil Servant then announced to the press that he had been appointed to the Foreign Office and it was too late to change it.........
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 16, 2016, 05:16:09 pm
I heard today from an extremely reliable source that the appointment of Boris Johnson was a total mistake. Theresa May had made a list of cabinet positions and against Boris Johnson's name had written 'F Off'.
A Civil Servant then announced to the press that he had been appointed to the Foreign Office and it was too late to change it.........
That explains a lot........... $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 22, 2016, 05:05:34 pm
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/intelligence-services-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/22/intelligence-services-using-dark-practices-against-jeremy-corbyn)

No it wasn't. It was those little green men who live at the bottom of the garden.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 07, 2016, 06:23:22 pm
Dark practices?     Jeremy Corbyn has done more damage to the Labour Party than anyone else.  He's voted against Labour more times than David Cameron ever did.
Now that he's the Leader of the Labour Party is he still going to vote against any of their policies?
Anything is possible with the new loony left of the Party I suppose.       ???

Can anyone seriously say:-
a)   He would make a good PM
B)   He would make a good world leader
c)   The UK  would be safe in his hands
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 28, 2016, 02:57:25 pm
Mr McDonnell told the Sunday Mirror Sir Richard wanted to "undermine" democracy, after a row over Jeremy Corbyn's journey on a Virgin train.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439)

I thought democracy was about free speech
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 09:26:07 am
Mr McDonnell told the Sunday Mirror Sir Richard wanted to "undermine" democracy, after a row over Jeremy Corbyn's journey on a Virgin train.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439)

I thought democracy was about free speech

There is free speech and then there is deliberately smearing someone in order to whip up publicity for your business.
Which do you think this was?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 09:28:58 am
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/28/virgin-broke-rules-releasing-corbyn-cctv-document (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/aug/28/virgin-broke-rules-releasing-corbyn-cctv-document)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2016, 11:09:16 am
Mr McDonnell told the Sunday Mirror Sir Richard wanted to "undermine" democracy, after a row over Jeremy Corbyn's journey on a Virgin train.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439)

I thought democracy was about free speech

There is free speech and then there is deliberately smearing someone in order to whip up publicity for your business.
Which do you think this was?

Actually, it was Corbyn's team which released their video to whip up publicity for their proposal to re-nationalise the railways. The fact that is that the video slandered Virgin Trains and Virgin, quite reasonably, retaliated. 'TrainGate' has proved an 'own goal' for the Corbyn team. As for breaking Virgin Trains breaking rules by releasing it, they are their own rules, not any legislation, so they are quite entitled to do so.

(P.S. Good to see you back B2R, we've been missing your posts....!)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 11:26:00 am
Mr McDonnell told the Sunday Mirror Sir Richard wanted to "undermine" democracy, after a row over Jeremy Corbyn's journey on a Virgin train.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37170439)

I thought democracy was about free speech

There is free speech and then there is deliberately smearing someone in order to whip up publicity for your business.
Which do you think this was?

Actually, it was Corbyn's team which released their video to whip up publicity for their proposal to re-nationalise the railways. The fact that is that the video slandered Virgin Trains and Virgin, quite reasonably, retaliated. 'TrainGate' has proved an 'own goal' for the Corbyn team. As for breaking Virgin Trains breaking rules by releasing it, they are their own rules, not any legislation, so they are quite entitled to do so.

(P.S. Good to see you back B2R, we've been missing your posts....!)

Been on holiday - few days back at work and then I'm off again this weekend! Good to be back though.
I don't think it's unfair for a politician to back up his cause I don't think it has been an own goal at all

"http://www.thecanary.co/2016/08/28/traingate-prompts-virgin-passengers-to-tweet-their-horrific-journeys-and-create-an-epic-pr-fail-for-richard-branson/"

Virgin should have kept quiet and accepted the fact they are anything but near perfect.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2016, 11:51:50 am
But did they not have a right to repudiate his attempt to smear them by lying? He lied. He claimed there were no seats and the train was 'ram packed'. By the most generous definition that means there were no seats. Which there were. So - was it right for JC to lie?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 11:56:25 am
In keeping with the JC theme of your last post - I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable.
Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2016, 12:05:53 pm
In keeping with the JC theme of your last post - I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable.
Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

B2R, you are plumbing the hilarious depths of mirth now in your attempts to justify your blind faith in Corbyn. At least it's keeping us amused.....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 12:36:01 pm
In keeping with the JC theme of your last post - I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable.
Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

B2R, you are plumbing the hilarious depths of mirth now in your attempts to justify your blind faith in Corbyn. At least it's keeping us amused.....

There must be a lot of people with 'blind' faith then. Including 77% of the Aberconwy Labour Party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2016, 01:13:19 pm
In keeping with the JC theme of your last post - I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable.
Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

B2R, you are plumbing the hilarious depths of mirth now in your attempts to justify your blind faith in Corbyn. At least it's keeping us amused.....

There must be a lot of people with 'blind' faith then. Including 77% of the Aberconwy Labour Party.

Do you all see the same counsellor?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 31, 2016, 02:31:34 pm

There must be a lot of people with 'blind' faith then. Including 77% of the Aberconwy Labour Party.

Even if there were 100% of the Aberconwy Labour Party backing Jeremy Corbyn  it wouldn't make any difference to what has been said on here many times.
The Labour Party under the leadership of Corbyn,  is on the road to nowhere.    He hasn't got the basic competence to be a world leader and the sooner he realises it the better,
If he does win the contest for the Labour leadership,  then from a political point of view Teresa May should call an immediate General Election and it would mean annihilation for the Labour Party.
I certainly don't want that to happen, do you?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2016, 02:56:08 pm
I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable. Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

So just to get this clear, then, you're happy for any political leader to tell downright lies as long as they call them parables?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on August 31, 2016, 03:27:54 pm
I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable. Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

So just to get this clear, then, you're happy for any political leader to tell downright lies as long as they call them parables?

As in the parable of the Weapons of Mass Destruction.......?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on August 31, 2016, 03:35:22 pm
I would say it wasn't so much a 'lie' as a parable. Trains are packed full every single weekend - I have seen it myself, I have no problem with him illustrating this message.

So just to get this clear, then, you're happy for any political leader to tell downright lies as long as they call them parables?

Hang on Iansun

JC didn't call them parables I did, albeit lightheartedly.
Don't forget the WOMAD mess was Mr Blair - would you prefer another snake leader like him?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 31, 2016, 06:12:45 pm
Sorry;  I didn't quite catch your answer. If I drop the 'parable', then, can I assume you're happy for any political leader to tell downright lies?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 01, 2016, 09:59:06 am
Sorry;  I didn't quite catch your answer. If I drop the 'parable', then, can I assume you're happy for any political leader to tell downright lies?

It's not a downright lie. The trains are in a mess. Do you use trains Ian?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 01, 2016, 10:58:56 am
Quote
It's not a downright lie. The trains are in a mess. Do you use trains Ian?

My favourite form of transport, B2R. But when you say
Quote
It's not a downright lie.
where JC
Quote
claimed there were no seats and the train was 'ram packed'. By the most generous definition that means there were no seats. Which there were.
I'm not sure I can see that there was any truth whatsoever in his comment.  And that makes it a lie.

So - is it permissible for any politician to Lie in support of their cause? A simple Yes or No will suffice.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 01, 2016, 12:09:19 pm
Yes.
It's what we pay them for.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 01, 2016, 12:45:00 pm
Yes

Sometimes it's necessary to 'lie' for various different and valid reasons.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 01, 2016, 03:39:18 pm
Yes

Sometimes it's necessary to 'lie' for various different and valid reasons.
   

A paragraph from the Morning Star

Then there’s honesty. An honest politician would make most of us laugh until we cried.
But Corbyn’s honest and open approach when looking at the way forward, when giving us his vision of a Labour Britain under his leadership, has connected with Labour members aged 16 to 105.

I'm afraid that the Red Flag will be flying at half mast if the loony left carry on as they have been doing.

And here's the rest of the article from the Commies Comic newspaper

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj11ef_su7OAhWDXRQKHV9oBU4QFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.morningstaronline.co.uk%2Fa-ba60-Jeremy-Corbyn-compassion%2C-honesty-and-hope-at-last&usg=AFQjCNGnfr8NBPDR76Km_1yWDiem2CFQ0Q&bvm=bv.131669213,d.bGs (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj11ef_su7OAhWDXRQKHV9oBU4QFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.morningstaronline.co.uk%2Fa-ba60-Jeremy-Corbyn-compassion%2C-honesty-and-hope-at-last&usg=AFQjCNGnfr8NBPDR76Km_1yWDiem2CFQ0Q&bvm=bv.131669213,d.bGs)



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 01, 2016, 04:00:41 pm
 $good$ Ahhh it's Bernadette! Thanks for posting Hugo - the writer of that article is local and a friend of mine.

Good read  8)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 02, 2016, 05:43:56 am
Yes

Sometimes it's necessary to 'lie' for various different and valid reasons.

So, WOMD, the NHS, MP's expenses, etc, that's alright then, I had wondered.  _))*

Have a good holiday.

Where are you off to? Planet Zog or back to Ga-ga Land?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 02, 2016, 08:33:58 am
I was thinking more along the lines of saying my Wife's new hair doo was nice  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 09, 2016, 09:55:40 am
I watched the Corbyn - Owen debate last night with an amount of interest, albeit it was in front of a very polarised audience which didn't seem to help the debate. My thoughts were that Corbyn was a clear winner in the debate; a more lucid and calmer orator with thought out considerations on most matters.

However, it was more than one sided, it was a really interesting observation of a very experienced politician; previously I was quite certain that he was sincere - but wrong - in his belief's, now I'm not so sure. The ideological views he expounded conveniently left out most of the practicalities or realities of his beliefs, and many were desirable, but fantasy. The socialist utopia he expounds will never exist in the real world and the danger is that although I think he knows that, his supporters don't, they are deluded enough to believe him. His supporters will then keep him in power in the Labour Party and he can crush those he hates far worse than the Conservatives - moderate Labour. That's his goal. Not to be elected as PM, he knows that's impossible, but to bring about a more socialist Labour Party, echo's of The Socialist Workers Party and the desire of Momentum.

Virtually nothing that Corbyn spoke of was realistic policy of a PM in waiting, it was all rhetoric. But, he will win, Labour will disintegrate and be unelectable and Owen will be consigned to the political dustbin of history.   

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 09, 2016, 10:26:04 am


Virtually nothing that Corbyn spoke of was realistic policy of a PM in waiting, it was all rhetoric. But, he will win, Labour will disintegrate and be unelectable and Owen will be consigned to the political dustbin of history.   

I agree with one of your three predictions  8)

Poor Owen was all of the place, looked like a child trying to argue with his headmaster, very out of his depth.
All he could retort back to constantly was 'I want Labour to be in power, Labour not to be in opposition to be in power' He lives in cloud cuckooland he says openly that he wants to win votes from tory supporters but offers them nothing that they want. He's like the new lad in the office who wants to be everyone's mate.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 11, 2016, 05:32:09 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37332287 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37332287)

Emily Thornberry - Shadow Foreign Secretary, accuses Sky News presenter Dermot Murnaghan of 'sexism' in a hilarious interview in which she proves she is a complete clown. This is her latest car-smash of a catastrophic interview, and she's had plenty to choose from, including Andrew Neil and Kirsty Walk. If this is the best that Corbyn can dredge up for one of the most important shadow cabinet positions, the Labour Party are in a dire situation. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2016, 09:01:19 am
She was a bit useless, nobody can deny that. But Dermot was a bit of a smug ar$e as well, clearly trying to catch her out and grab a headline, can't blame her for being upset &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 12, 2016, 12:34:36 pm
I don't think that Murnaghan was being smug at all; in fact he seemed quite taken aback by Thornberry's response. It's just the latest public disaster from the shadow cabinet and leader of a bunch non-entities and no-hopers that are allowing the Conservatives to smugly romp along with their far right agenda.

We desperately require an efficient parliamentary opposition and not only have we not got one, there isn't even one on the horizon, and doesn't seem that there will be one for some light years to come.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2016, 12:52:21 pm
Labour have got 230 MPs. I know amongst that lot there is some great people who would will a strong government. They need to put away their egos and support their democratically elected leader. If they refuse they should be kicked out of the party and re elections should be taken in their areas. I'm certain Labour would win 100% of these re-elections.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 12, 2016, 02:25:01 pm
Labour have got 230 MPs. I know amongst that lot there is some great people who would will a strong government. They need to put away their egos and support their democratically elected leader. If they refuse they should be kicked out of the party and re elections should be taken in their areas. I'm certain Labour would win 100% of these re-elections.

Er, how do you equate that with Corbyn defying his 'democratically elected leader' over 500 times in his parliamentary career?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2016, 03:28:08 pm
Labour have got 230 MPs. I know amongst that lot there is some great people who would will a strong government. They need to put away their egos and support their democratically elected leader. If they refuse they should be kicked out of the party and re elections should be taken in their areas. I'm certain Labour would win 100% of these re-elections.

Er, how do you equate that with Corbyn defying his 'democratically elected leader' over 500 times in his parliamentary career?

He wasn't in the cabinet though.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2016, 03:38:33 pm
Labour have got 230 MPs. I know amongst that lot there is some great people who would will a strong government. They need to put away their egos and support their democratically elected leader. If they refuse they should be kicked out of the party and re elections should be taken in their areas. I'm certain Labour would win 100% of these re-elections.

Er, how do you equate that with Corbyn defying his 'democratically elected leader' over 500 times in his parliamentary career?



He wasn't in the cabinet though.

What difference does that make?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 12, 2016, 04:14:29 pm
The cabinet is there to work directly with the leader as part of his team.
Alex Ferguson will tell you there can be no dissent in a team! I don't agree with everything Corbyn does or says but I know we need to unite behind him if we are to achieve anything.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2016, 05:10:10 pm
Hmmm.  Actually, B2R, you said

Quote
Labour have got 230 MPs. I know amongst that lot there is some great people who would will a strong government. They need to put away their egos and support their democratically elected leader.

which says nothing about the cabinet at all and simply assumes it's the job of every Labour MP to support their leader, which JC conveniently has failed to do on numerous occasions. It's a point I made a while ago: his own record as an MP shows he has no loyalty whatsoever to Labour or to any Labour Leader. Effectively, that ensures he has no moral authority as leader.

He's trying to play two games: stay as a Labour MP because it's well paid with a decent pension, ignore what the Leadership ask him to do, and then try to change the rules to say everyone must support him as leader. It's so blatantly dishonest I did wonder how he gets away with it at all, but clearly he has an appeal to the ultra-Left of the party who, for some reason, can't see the rest of the voting public will have nothing to do with him as a potential PM.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2016, 10:15:16 pm
I'm inclined to agree with you Ian on that, Corbyn and his mouthpiece John McDonnell seem to be so out of touch with the voting public.  They have more in common with the Communist party than the Labour Party  which they have been elected to represent.
Corbyn may well win the election for the Labour leadership but his appeal is only to the loony left of the party and I just don't understand how even Corbyn's staunchest fans can think that he has any leadership qualities about him.
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 13, 2016, 09:29:19 am
Completely absurd! Corbyn has 84% support of local Labour parties, does that mean that 84% of local parties are 'the looney left'? This includes our own CLP , which I assume you're not a member of even though you seem to know so very much about the party and how it is supposed to be run!

Ian, you're very good with your highlighting pen, but you seem to ignore my next sentence talking about a government. Also your wild claim about Corbyn wanting to stay as an MP because it has a nice pension has not other substantiation than your own mind! If you are going to make wild accusations, please be prepared to back them up with fact. I find it surprising as you're normally the first to berate claims on here without any basis, you badgered poor Fester to death not too long ago because he was making similar assumptions!

I would also remind you that Corbyn turned down Owen Smith's silly but very cushy offer to be 'president' of the party. I suspect this would have been of more worth than his MPs pension

http://labourlist.org/2016/07/corbyn-snubs-smiths-offer-of-party-president-role/ (http://labourlist.org/2016/07/corbyn-snubs-smiths-offer-of-party-president-role/)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 13, 2016, 10:23:10 am
Of course Corbyn was not going to rise to Owen Smith's offer, firstly it was not in Smith's power to give, and secondly Corbyn knows that he will the Leadership contest. But Corbyn knows that he will never, ever win a general election and will never be Prime Minister, he has no ambition in that direction. He simply wants to turn the Labour Party into his own ideals of a Marxist/Leninist/Socialist Workers protest party. If the idiot Thornberry is the best that he can find to post as a Shadow Foreign Secretary, because 172 out of 232 are prepared to vote that they had no confidence in Corbyn, he has hardly been a raving success as a leader, but as well as no support from his own MP's, Labour support amongst the public is now at an all time low. To say that he has the support of 84% of local Labour parties is worthless, you have to be politically orientated to join a political party, so by joining the Labour party shows a left leaning, and those that support Corbyn are just further left, and they are the only people that do support Corbyn, the general public don't, and never will. He's destroyed the Labour Party as a credible Parliamentary Opposition and as an alternative to the Tories for the foreseeable future and will have the worst record as a Labour leader in history, worse even than Milliband or Foot. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 13, 2016, 11:06:14 am
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."

Sums up your view perfectly I think!

The public doesn't hate Corbyn it's the right wing press who have created this fallacy. Most people I talk to respect and admire him. Before these MPs started messing around him and whipping up a boo haha the opinion polls were neck and neck. I'm certain Corbyn can and will win a general election as long as he isn't stopped by his own party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 13, 2016, 12:10:11 pm
The public doesn't hate Corbyn it's the right wing press who have created this fallacy. Most people I talk to respect and admire him. Before these MPs started messing around him and whipping up a boo haha the opinion polls were neck and neck. I'm certain Corbyn can and will win a general election as long as he isn't stopped by his own party.

 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 13, 2016, 01:30:35 pm
Completely absurd! Corbyn has 84% support of local Labour parties, does that mean that 84% of local parties are 'the looney left'? This includes our own CLP , which I assume you're not a member of even though you seem to know so very much about the party and how it is supposed to be run!


http://labourlist.org/2016/07/corbyn-snubs-smiths-offer-of-party-president-role/ (http://labourlist.org/2016/07/corbyn-snubs-smiths-offer-of-party-president-role/)

If being honest and truthful is absurd then I'll own up to it.    Just waving a Union card doesn't mean that you are right either.    I've been a Labour supporter and an active Union Member since 1964 so I may have picked up a little knowledge along the way, but most of all I hope I've acquired some common sense too.
Boson is quite right in what he has said that the Country does need a strong opposition party whether it's a Labour one or a Conservative one or otherwise the party in Government can simply do what they want to do.
Corbyn is not a leader in any way shape or form, he is just a protester and if he's still in power then Labour will not be a viable opposition party but will continue just being a party of protest.
When the next General Election comes up,  I like many others won't be voting for Labour if  Corbyn is the leader and neither would I consider voting for the Conservatives as it is not representative of the majority of the population.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 13, 2016, 01:45:54 pm
Whilst I respect your decision not to vote Labour if JC was leader and more than respect your decision not Tory either. I don't consider your view definitive of the British public.

Who would you vote for out of interest? If there was an election tomorrow for instance.

I would always vote Labour regardless of the leader, as I believe there can only be one strong opposition party which we all must unite behind to defeat the Tories, who always have and always will look after the interests of the few , this I did with Sillyband as leader with no relish at all and would do again even if a pillock like Owen Smith was leader. But should JC not be leader I would not be a member of the Labour party nor would play an active part in supporting them. Nor would most of the people who have joined recently and have revitalised the party. This I fear would be the end of the Labour party as the main opposition. People have the power, without grassroots supporters Labour is nothing.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 13, 2016, 02:01:31 pm

Ian, you're very good with your highlighting pen, but you seem to ignore my next sentence talking about a government.

Not really. I'm just curious how someone who clearly had no regard for his party or its leadership can expect to claim the loyalty of those who oppose him.


Quote
Also your wild claim about Corbyn wanting to stay as an MP because it has a nice pension has not other substantiation than your own mind!

Indeed, but I was making the point that he's oddly anxious to remain in what the majority of his own MPs tell him is an unsustainable position. When so many MPs tell their leader that he's not the person for the job, every other political party leader I can think of would have resigned. Now, you made the point that you expect all the MPs to
Quote
support their democratically elected leader. If they refuse they should be kicked out of the party
but that's never what Corbyn himself did. Thus, if he expects them to support him when he failed to do the same in the same position, how can he lead the party and what are his motives for remaining as the leader? That's a legitimate question, and you can only retreat to the 'democratic vote' for so long. He's been told - repeatedly - that he's dangerous for Labour's future, yet he's already made it clear that even if Labour gets wiped out at the next general election he'll stay on as leader. So something must be keeping him on as leader. If there's no support for him from his MPs, then what is his motive? It might be that he's in a well paid job - seems eminently reasonable to propose that. 
[/quote]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 13, 2016, 02:05:39 pm
The worrying thought to me is that another party will emerge. It could be a centrist party - maybe the Violet progressive party comprising most Labour MPs and some Tory sceptics. But more worryingly, UKIP might make a push to take the extreme wings.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 13, 2016, 02:49:54 pm
The worrying thought to me is that another party will emerge. It could be a centrist party - maybe the Violet progressive party comprising most Labour MPs and some Tory sceptics. But more worryingly, UKIP might make a push to take the extreme wings.

I agree completely, particularly with regards to the far right. Brexit proved that for me. I spoke to so many people (particularly working class people) who had never voted in their lives but voted to 'leave' in that debacle.

It will have given them a taste of voting and one that they'll keep up if Labour doesn't regain these core electorates then the right wing will happily lap them up.

That's why I believe we need a Leader who is a little different from the mainstream.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 13, 2016, 03:25:23 pm

I would always vote Labour regardless of the leader, as I believe there can only be one strong opposition party which we all must unite behind to defeat the Tories.

And that's the crux of this because as long as Labour has Corbyn as leader it will always remain in opposition.    The UK needs a strong leader in power who will defend the country, whereas Corbyn's views on defence are well known.    He won't press the nuclear button if needed, but is quite happy to press the self destruct button for the Labour Party.    Who needs a leader like that?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 13, 2016, 03:48:19 pm
"He won't press the nuclear button if needed.."

I thought I would keep off the political threads but I can't let that go....sorry!
Well I for one don't want mutually assured destruction. I read that and immediately thought of an old song viz

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7-ngmO_p8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W7-ngmO_p8)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 13, 2016, 04:00:42 pm
Yep, hard to let that one pass - I don't think there is too many people desperate for a nuclear war   :o
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Dwyforite on September 13, 2016, 04:14:20 pm
and I definatly don't want a primeminister  to be tugged by his the ear into participating in another war on the say so of an American president who has an i.q.lower than the heels on his cowboy boots
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 13, 2016, 04:38:39 pm
War is futile and no one in their right mind would want it, but if we hadn't have stuck up for ourselves when we needed to then we could all be speaking German now.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on September 13, 2016, 06:25:39 pm
I think that trying to compare " pressing the  nuclear button" with conventional ( and I hate using that word) war is wrong. The former would lead to mutually assured destruction, in my opinion.  No one would be alive  so language wouldn't  matter would it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 13, 2016, 10:36:14 pm
We should all learn the lessons of mistakes from the past, but don't forget that the Germans weren't that far away from developing the A bomb and do you think that if they had developed it then they wouldn't have used it on the UK?
In  the present day though, could a country like the UK be run by a pacifist and would the other countries follow that example?    Let's be real about it.
It could all be irrelevant anyway as both Labour candidates could lose their seats in the proposed Tory boundary changes.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 14, 2016, 08:47:20 am
I don't think the Germans would have used the A bomb on the UK for a variety of different reasons. But that is irrelevant to this debate anyway.

If we are talking about popular opinion and how to please the electorate then know that in the most recent surveys only 37% agree with our involvement in the Iraq war.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 14, 2016, 12:23:24 pm
As you quite rightly say it's irrelevant to this debate anyway, as is the most recent surveys that only 37% agree with our involvement in the Iraq war.
Hind sight is a marvellous thing but it is hoped that as a nation we can learn from our mistakes in the past.

We are both Labour supporters but our opinions are still poles apart and I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on Jeremy's competence to be a leader of the Labour Party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 15, 2016, 09:50:35 am
I have never seen anything like this in all the years of my political interest:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/14/corbyns-team-mistakenly-issues-list-of-mps-who-undermined-leader?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=190377&subid=7995213&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2 (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/14/corbyns-team-mistakenly-issues-list-of-mps-who-undermined-leader?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=190377&subid=7995213&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Parliamentary Labour Party is a complete shambles and a totally ineffective mess. Does anyone possibly think that the rabble of Corbyn, Abbott, Thornberry etc., and (FFS....) Cat Smith can be an effective opposition party, let alone run the country........ 

I've supported Labour values for over forty years; the sadness of the loss of John Smith, the stupidity of the block vote system enabling the Unions to ensure the wrong Miliband was elected leader, but this tragedy that is Corbyn is worse than anything I've seen.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 15, 2016, 10:29:58 am
Social media and a marked cultural shift will make it far easier for a new party to emerge, I suspect. Perhaps a New New Labour?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 15, 2016, 10:41:17 am
Social media and a marked cultural shift will make it far easier for a new party to emerge, I suspect. Perhaps a New New Labour?
Its a fascinating situation. I too suspect we will see a breakaway party emerge if Corbyn is re-elected which, may in time, become the 'real' opposition.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 15, 2016, 11:10:44 am

[/quote]
Its a fascinating situation. I too suspect we will see a breakaway party emerge if Corbyn is re-elected which, may in time, become the 'real' opposition.
[/quote]

I think that you may well be right. There are certainly more than enough disenchanted MP's 172 (against 40 that supported Corbyn) and a fair percentage of the British public that would support a proper Labour party.

As I have said before, Corbyn has no ambition to be PM, he knows that will never happen, he wants a Marxist/Leninist/Socialist Workers Protest Party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 15, 2016, 11:44:09 am
On a January morning 35 years ago, the Labour party split. The gang of four – Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Shirley Williams and Bill Rodgers – stepped out in east London’s Limehouse to declare their breakaway Social Democratic party. This anniversary would pass unnoticed, an arcane political footnote, but for the present state of Labour. Is Jeremy Corbyn a reprise of Michael Foot? Might history repeat itself? Pandemonium inside the parliamentary Labour party suggests anything is possible.

It has happened before when the lunatics were running the asylum, those four were very good Labour minded MP's but they could see what the loony left were doing to the party.
Corbyn, McDonnell and some of the others are doing exactly the same and Labour will continue to be just a protest party while they are there.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2016, 12:31:06 pm
There won't be a split. The Unions created the Labour party and whoever the Unions continue to support IS the Labour party. If they did split how would they fund themselves? Maybe sell themselves out to big business and donors like the Tories?

It is clear that the British public want an opposition that is markedly different to the government in power at the moment and the party that can most do that is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party.

Jeremy will win the leadership election hands downs
MPs will fall into line or leave the party (if their lifestyle and expenses culture mean more to them than the party)
Labour will be seen to be instrumental in stopping the ridiculous grammar school plans (massively opposed by the public) and their popularity will increase and continue to increase and build momentum as it was doing until these MPs decided to shoot themselves (and the party) in the foot by squawking for a new leader after brexit .
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 15, 2016, 12:56:27 pm
There won't be a split. The Unions created the Labour party and whoever the Unions continue to support IS the Labour party. If they did split how would they fund themselves? Maybe sell themselves out to big business and donors like the Tories?

It is clear that the British public want an opposition that is markedly different to the government in power at the moment and the party that can most do that is Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party.

Jeremy will win the leadership election hands downs
MPs will fall into line or leave the party (if their lifestyle and expenses culture mean more to them than the party)
Labour will be seen to be instrumental in stopping the ridiculous grammar school plans (massively opposed by the public) and their popularity will increase and continue to increase and build momentum as it was doing until these MPs decided to shoot themselves (and the party) in the foot by squawking for a new leader after brexit .

.......the counselling's not going well then......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 15, 2016, 01:49:23 pm
There won't be a split. The Unions created the Labour party and whoever the Unions continue to support IS the Labour party. If they did split how would they fund themselves?

Do you assume there aren't any major donors with massive financial clout who are Labour supporters but unhappy with JC?

Quote
On a January morning 35 years ago, the Labour party split. The gang of four – Roy Jenkins, David Owen, Shirley Williams and Bill Rodgers – stepped out in east London’s Limehouse to declare their breakaway Social Democratic party.

Thanks for that, Hugo;  I"d been trying to think about the 'gang of four' and how things transpired back then, but I suspect it's very different times, now. In those days there were no mobile 'phones, no Facebook, Twitter, Instagram or social media generally. The big question now, I suspect, is whether the money would flow to a break-away party. An interesting scenario presents itself.

The existing Labour MPs who really can't work with JC don't have to stand down now; they could remain, albeit uncomfortably, in their seats but declare themselves part of a 'New party'. There's precedent for that. That would give them enough time to become well known in their constituencies, and face the voters as new party members at the next General Election. I believe the gang of four failed because they effectively stood alone, but if enough fractured from Labour in the house then it could change the political landscape for ever.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 15, 2016, 02:00:36 pm
Labour will be seen to be instrumental in stopping the ridiculous grammar school plans (massively opposed by the public) and their popularity will increase and continue to increase and build momentum as it was doing until these MPs decided to shoot themselves (and the party) in the foot by squawking for a new leader after brexit .

About May's move on Grammar schools. The proposed Grammar Schools would be nothing like the old ones. But it's clearly a political movement, since she's seeking to appease Tory parents. It's not about equality, since you can achieve that much more quickly simply by eliminating all public schools. And then there's the thorny issue of Faith schools.

I'm not sure you're right, though, when you say "their popularity will increase and continue to increase and build momentum " if only because most voters instinctively mistrust extremes. That's what eventually doomed Thatcher, saw Labour unable to win an election for years in the past and will, I suspect, finish Labour as an electoral force. I don't doubt membership of the Labour Party has rocketed over the past 12 months, but that's not the same as the voters being inclined to vote for them. What it does mean is that JC's leadership has drawn back in a lot of activists who have long felt sidelined by the centrist policy of previous Labour administrations. And that's not necessarily good for the party as a whole.

But we really do live in interesting times. The next few months will be fascinating.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 15, 2016, 03:11:34 pm
It's impossible to say what will happen, I'm just having a guess. Who would have ever in a million years thought Corbyn would have stood for let alone won the contest in the first place?

Come next election the landscape may be totally different again. One thing I do believe though is that the key to success is getting the young voters - those aged 14 and up now and the non voters. The non voters that I meet always say the same thing to me "I don't vote because they're all the same' clearly Corbyn offers something different and must keep doing so.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2016, 11:35:24 am
I recorded Question Time last night and watched the programme this morning because of who was on the panel.   It turned out to be a lively and at times a very heated debate but it did show who is the driving force behind the present Labour Party.
John McDonnell said that he's not a Marxist, even though he admitted that he once said he was, so which of John McDonnell's statement is correct?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2016, 12:13:23 pm
People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 16, 2016, 12:51:08 pm
People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point  :laugh:

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2016, 01:10:56 pm
People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point  :laugh:

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?

It seems to be the case but they are damaging the party that they claim to represent.     McDonnell was asked a question in the paper recently and it asked him if Corbyn was to win this contest, wouldn't it split the Labour Party?    His reply was simply "so be it"
Well that attitude says Amen to the Labour Party, clear and simple
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 16, 2016, 02:04:34 pm
People can change - wasn't Sillyband called Red Ed at University and promoting Marxism along with his Father?
Tony Blair used to be cool, he was in a band and liked Bruce Springsteen.
Even Churchill switched from the Tories to the Liberals
and It's 'claimed' Farage was in the national front when he was young....so not everyone changes, but you get my point  :laugh:

Don't you think that they just change their public persona to gain a position of power or responsibility that allows them to pursue their real agenda and beliefs?

Yes, actually! But it can't be true in every case. I do believe people can change whether they want to is another matter altogether.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 16, 2016, 03:25:17 pm
I watched Question Time last night, and I have never seen such vitriol around that table.
It got very heated just prior to Brexit referendum, but last night a lot of nastiness emerged.
I actually felt quite sorry for John McDonnel, without really knowing who he is.
He was getting lambasted with some quite serious personal attacks, and he was quite restrained and measured in his response.
I did think that, by the end of the programme, that not one single question had been addressed and that once again politicians in this country were shown in a very embarrassing light.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 16, 2016, 05:17:38 pm
Perhaps I'm being cynical in my old age, but I don't believe that professional politicians (as those you mentioned) have an epiphany, or do change their ideals, they maneuverer themselves into a better position for personal and professional advantage and advancement. (Except Neil Hamilton, he just grabbed the first offer from anyone that would have him.) Churchill was an excellent example of a expediency for advancement. Our own Mike Priestly (a good local councillor) didn't have a saintly conversion, he left the Lib Dem's sinking ship for Labour to try and get into Assembly.

As I have said before, Corbyn has no ambition to be PM, he knows that will never happen, he (and McDonnell) want Labour to be a Marxist/Leninist/Socialist Workers Protest Party and the British public may want change, but certainly not to that extent. Whilst the Corbyn agenda has attracted some people to join the Labour Party, he is putting off millions from voting Labour. 80% of his MP's do not support him, he does not have the support of any previous Labour leader, or any of the 'elder statesmen' of the party, all of whom want him to go, so how on earth does any (sane) person suggest he is in a position to form a credible Parliamentary Opposition Party even if he does win the leadership, at a time when a strong opposition is desperately needed?   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2016, 07:27:30 pm
Tremendous irony, though, with the same thing being said about Trump.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 16, 2016, 05:32:18 am
Of course the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic.

Except a House of Commons Select Committee say they are. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37656197 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37656197)

Even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes".

But the Labour Party is not anti-Semitic.......

With daily revelations about the Home Secretary Amber Rudd dodgy financial past and Mrs May is not exactly covering herself in glory (especially with her appointments) Nicola Sturgeon (aka The Winging Jock) is romping away, here and abroad. This is the political equivalent of 'the perfect storm' for the U.K.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2016, 09:08:48 am
Hmm.   That wasn't exactly what they said.

"The MPs said the failure of the Labour Party "consistently and effectively to deal with anti-Semitic incidents in recent years risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-Semitic"

So a rather more cautious comment, but nonetheless a worrying one. I note they also mentioned the NUS and Twitter and the fact that the groups most vehemently anti-semitic have traditionally been the far right. This is a vexing question, however; it's all too easy to excuse jokes and comments which betray attitudes towards the Jewish communities because they're not protected specifically, in the same way as black communities, or Gay communities are. And many still believe that anti-race hate legislation is wrong.

I think the problem exists because we're essentially a more tolerant society than many and accept all religions on an equal basis, although Judaism and the Jewish are unlike any other socio-religious group inasmuch as being Jewish is not simply a religion but a cultural identity. But returning to the Labour Party I'm not at all sure that they're inherently any more anti-Jewish than any other party.  However, they're probably a lot less subtle about it.

And this is extremely heavyweight for a Sunday morning...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 16, 2016, 11:31:42 am
Whilst I can only agree with your post in the main, the fact that the report said that the Jeremy Corbyn was creating a safe space for people with “vile attitudes towards Jewish people” and your quote that his actions (or lack of them) “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-semitic” in reality tends to suggest far beyond any reasonable doubt that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic. As I pointed out, even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". I'm not sure how much more evidence is required.....

However, I agree with you that possibly no more than other some other groups - as you mention, the report mentions the NUS and Twitter, but, and it's quite a large but, those groups are not the official Parliamentary Opposition Party who aspire to government and run the country.

I am also tempted to suggest a new thread - for the most irritating, annoying Politician that you'd like to put in the stocks and pillorise. Then I realised that there'd be too many candidates. But, Jeremy Hunt seconded by Emily Thornbury are leading for me..............   

Oh, is it Sunday today? I hadn't noticed.......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 16, 2016, 11:33:56 am
......

With daily revelations about the Home Secretary Amber Rudd dodgy financial past and Mrs May is not exactly covering herself in glory (especially with her appointments) Nicola Sturgeon (aka The Winging Jock) is romping away, here and abroad. This is the political equivalent of 'the perfect storm' for the U.K.

Jimmy Krankie  isn't popular with everyone abroad
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on October 16, 2016, 12:01:55 pm
Whilst I can only agree with your post in the main, the fact that the report said that the Jeremy Corbyn was creating a safe space for people with “vile attitudes towards Jewish people” and your quote that his actions (or lack of them) “risks lending force to allegations that elements of the Labour movement are institutionally anti-semitic” in reality tends to suggest far beyond any reasonable doubt that the Labour Party is anti-Semitic. As I pointed out, even Shami Chakrabarti, in her enquiry said there is an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and that there was "too much clear evidence... of ignorant attitudes". I'm not sure how much more evidence is required.....

However, I agree with you that possibly no more than other some other groups - as you mention, the report mentions the NUS and Twitter, but, and it's quite a large but, those groups are not the official Parliamentary Opposition Party who aspire to government and run the country.

I am also tempted to suggest a new thread - for the most irritating, annoying Politician that you'd like to put in the stocks and pillorise. Then I realised that there'd be too many candidates. But, Jeremy Hunt seconded by Emily Thornbury are leading for me..............   

Oh, is it Sunday today? I hadn't noticed.......

Ones for the Pillory,  I agree that Jeremy Hunt and Emily Thornbury are idiotic and therefore must be at the front of that queue.
But, that new Tory Secretary of State for Wales who blamed Plaid Cymru for burning down cottages 45 years ago deserves a special place in hell.
The poor standard and low intelligence of politicians in this modern era is mind boggling.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2016, 12:09:01 pm
We are becoming disenchanted with politicians across the board. That's one reason why Trump has got as far as he has, I'm sure.

I'm currently watching a chilling documentary series on Adolf Hitler's rise to power and what's specifically chilling about it is that he was democratically elected. German voters voted him and his party in, because he said the sorts of things they wanted to hear. I think that's what worries me the most: we're sliding toward a situation in which 'the will of the people' could bring a lot of problems.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on October 16, 2016, 12:24:08 pm
We are becoming disenchanted with politicians across the board. That's one reason why Trump has got as far as he has, I'm sure.

I'm currently watching a chilling documentary series on Adolf Hitler's rise to power and what's specifically chilling about it is that he was democratically elected. German voters voted him and his party in, because he said the sorts of things they wanted to hear. I think that's what worries me the most: we're sliding toward a situation in which 'the will of the people' could bring a lot of problems.

.... Indeed Ian, something I warned about on this Forum about 4 years ago.
It's the apathy of the more peaceful majority that leads to the militant and dangerous minority achieving power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on October 18, 2016, 12:28:59 pm
Hatred is becoming an accepted norm. The Daily Mail gets more outlandish and racist every day. It has been on a steady rise since Brexit I have been monitoring it and it is surely at a peak at the moment.
The top comments from people in their stories now, are not just blaming refugees for problems but actively condoning the murder of all of them, very scary times.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on October 18, 2016, 05:11:10 pm
The Daily Mail is indeed plumbing the depths and putting a worrying slant on most of their 'news' story headlines. I actually agree that there has been a tangible rise in xenophobic comment from everywhere. I don't know if Trump's and Farage's abysmal performances, behaviour and lies have lowered the acceptable standards bar even lower, compounded by the depressing conduct and antics of the political parties here. Politicians have now sunk below the level of the legal profession in my view, and that's saying something.....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 03, 2016, 10:44:26 am
Do the politicians really know what is going on with Brexit?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37857785)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2016, 07:40:50 am
Not national politics but Trump beat Clinton for the Presidency

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37920175 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37920175)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 23, 2016, 02:57:49 pm
Jamie Reed's resignation may give an indicator of how Labour are doing at present.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjE8sWryIrRAhWRM1AKHeRrCX8QqQIIHDAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F12%2F21%2Flabour-mp-jamie-reed-quits-sparking-copeland-by-election%2F&usg=AFQjCNFoQugqxTjBPiyQ6tcDIzwZbSxmcA (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjE8sWryIrRAhWRM1AKHeRrCX8QqQIIHDAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2016%2F12%2F21%2Flabour-mp-jamie-reed-quits-sparking-copeland-by-election%2F&usg=AFQjCNFoQugqxTjBPiyQ6tcDIzwZbSxmcA)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on December 28, 2016, 09:51:53 am
"A spokesman for Jeremy Corbyn has hit back after Barack Obama appeared to suggest that the Labour party has moved away from “fact and reality” and is disintegrating."

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/27/corbyn-hits-back-obama-suggests-labour-disintegrating-grounded-fact-reality (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/27/corbyn-hits-back-obama-suggests-labour-disintegrating-grounded-fact-reality)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 28, 2016, 05:05:28 pm
The Police do not get involved in Politics but they do have a caring side

The North Yorkshire Police report finding a man's body
in the River Swale, near Richmond.

The dead man's name will not be released until his
family has been notified.

The victim apparently drowned due to excessive
marijuana consumption.

He was wearing black fishnet stockings, a red garter belt,
a pink G-string, a strap-on dildo, purple lipstick, and a
‘Corbyn for Prime Minister' T-shirt.   He also had a
cucumber in his rectum.

The police removed the Corbyn T-shirt to spare his family
any unnecessary embarrassment.

In spite of what we sometimes think, the police do care
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 29, 2016, 08:49:13 am
 _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on January 17, 2017, 12:33:39 pm
Meanwhile this government continues it's subtle attack on the working classes and workers rights.

This time by proposing to raise the small claims limit for personal injuries from £1000 to £5000

"The Government is hiding behind road traffic accident whiplash claims in order to raise the small claimslimit in all personal injury claims from £1,000 to £5,000. This will remove access to free or affordable legal representation for 95% of injured people, including those injured at work. The Government admits that the proposed changes will cost the taxpayer and the NHS over £150 million each year and increase insurer profits by £200 million pa."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 17, 2017, 02:46:50 pm
This isn't as obvious as it appears.  Much of the problem is the fees taken by lawyers. If they're removed from the equation it might actually assist claimants.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 17, 2017, 02:48:51 pm
In a timely moment, I've done some research into Labour's fortunes under JC. From the Labour Party's own news desk:

"Labour’s support slumped in its heartlands last night in a series of council by-elections. The Labour share of the vote plunged by 25 per cent in wards in Newcastle and Mansfield, where the party hung on, and fell by single-digit figures in Pendle, in Lancashire, and Tandridge, in Surrey.

Labour lost the Reedley ward in Pendle where the Tories made an 8.4 per cent gain. Labour’s share of the vote fell by 7.6 per cent as it suffered a surprise defeat to the Tories. The Lib Dems were a distant third on 2.3 per cent. With the final count completed on Friday afternoon, the results showed Labour held three wards, the Tories gained one and held three and the Lib Dems held one. Labour held seats in Carlisle, where it increased its vote share, Mansfield and Newcastle. The Tories and Lib Dems retained wards in Eastbourne, in Sussex, and Tandridge, respectively."

Now these were from November last year but  given it's mid-term for a Tory government and all the promising sounds made by JC supporters, I don't see much in the way of a revival, or even a maintenance, of Labour's fortunes under JC.

In Parliamentary by elections, the news is even more dismal. If we look at elections since Brexit and the Leadership challenge, in the Sleaford and North Hykeham by-election Labour went down by 7.1% - more than three times the Tory and UKIP vote. In the Richmond Park election Labour were almost 9% down on the previous election. In the Witney election it was 2.2% down. Incredibly, even in the Ogmore election - a Labour Heartland - they were down by 0.3%.

It'll be interesting to see how the upcoming by-elections work.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 23, 2017, 11:09:31 am
Voting begins in Stoke and Copeland by elections.    I wonder if Storm Doris will affect the turn out today


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39057362 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39057362)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 24, 2017, 10:38:26 am
Labour lose the by election at Copeland but it's not Jeremy's fault, but then it never is according to McDonnell.       



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39075061 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39075061)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 25, 2017, 01:03:12 pm
It's a shame that David Miliband wasn't elected as Labour leader instead of his brother Ed Miliband


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39085859 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39085859)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on February 25, 2017, 06:04:11 pm
It's a shame that David Miliband wasn't elected as Labour leader instead of his brother Ed Miliband


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39085859 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39085859)


I think he had too much baggage at the time, having been heavily involved with Blair (who had become toxic).
Maybe now might be his time to move as there is no obvious rival to Corbyn, so he may be more acceptable to the sceptics.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on February 26, 2017, 12:43:00 am
I can't help but like Mr Corbyn.
I've not come across any politician with any integrity whatsoever for over 30 years, but I actually think he has.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 05, 2017, 10:30:49 pm
It's not Jeremy's fault is it,  or is it?      There's no one else he or McDonnell  can blame this time


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39175570 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39175570)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 06, 2017, 07:51:14 am
Much as I feel JC is utterly the wrong man for the job I doubt there's any wrongdoing over the tax return, since otherwise he'd never have published it. And by publishing his, it might push others into the same action.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2017, 09:07:34 am
On the income he has declared, the tax paid would be more or less correct but there may be a simple explanation for the amounts on the return.
You're right though on the comments about him being the wrong man for the job but I don't think that you'll ever get any honest transparency in politics even if all the MP's published their tax returns.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 06, 2017, 09:15:05 am
True...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 06, 2017, 01:51:17 pm
What's been astonishing is that the Conservatives recently won the Copeland by-election, capturing a seat that has been Labour since 1924. That's unprecedented, the first time a governing party has taken a seat from another party in a by-election in 35 years. Just shows how unpopular Corbyn is amongst real people.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/24/tories-overturn-labour-majority-to-win-copeland-byelection (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/24/tories-overturn-labour-majority-to-win-copeland-byelection)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2017, 04:30:53 pm
That's more than just a bad day at the office!                        ))*       The Independent seems to have got the figures wrong compared to Jeremy's tax return and they have missed out the three personal pensions of £36,045.00      $booboo$



 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jeremy-corbyn-says-not-wealthy-despite-130k-salary-labour-scotland-out-of-touch-a7212811.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/jeremy-corbyn-says-not-wealthy-despite-130k-salary-labour-scotland-out-of-touch-a7212811.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 07, 2017, 11:59:39 am
Corbyn's comment that he is not wealthy, despite earning £137,000 a year, shows how out of touch he really is.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on March 07, 2017, 01:11:05 pm
Corbyn's comment that he is not wealthy, despite earning £137,000 a year, shows how out of touch he really is.

Sorry chum, but with all due respect, your post actually shows how much you are the one that's out of touch. Whilst I am in no way a supporter of JC, he is the leader of the Labour Party and the Parliamentary Opposition, and £137k is not anything like a high salary in London and I'm quite surprised his income is so low. He certainly could not afford a mortgage for a house in central London on that salary. An NHS Trust Director's pay is well over £100k, as is an NHS Consultant and GP, and a rural Chief Constable's and NHS Chief Execs pay is well over £150k. It's perfectly clear that JC is certainly not in politics for the money, and by publishing his tax return, he is showing he is scrupulously clean, unlike Mrs May who has refused to publish her tax return. And, to be honest, I wouldn't want to publish my tax return to be pawed over and criticised by the press. I think that he's brave, honest and transparent, besides deluded.   

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 07, 2017, 01:22:04 pm
Corbyn's comment that he is not wealthy, despite earning £137,000 a year, shows how out of touch he really is.

Sorry chum, but with all due respect, your post actually shows how much you are the one that's out of touch. Whilst I am in no way a supporter of JC, he is the leader of the Labour Party and the Parliamentary Opposition, and £137k is not anything like a high salary in London and I'm quite surprised his income is so low. He certainly could not afford a mortgage for a house in central London on that salary. An NHS Trust Director's pay is well over £100k, as is an NHS Consultant and GP, and a rural Chief Constable's and NHS Chief Execs pay is well over £150k. It's perfectly clear that JC is certainly not in politics for the money, and by publishing his tax return, he is showing he is scrupulously clean, unlike Mrs May who has refused to publish her tax return. And, to be honest, I wouldn't want to publish my tax return to be pawed over and criticised by the press. I think that he's brave, honest and transparent, besides deluded.
You're talking about a tiny, tiny, part of the population who earns those sort of amounts. Back in the real world, people round here manage on £7.20 an hour. Ask those people whether they think Corbyn is wealthy or not...  ££$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2017, 01:43:02 pm
and £137k is not anything like a high salary in London

Well DaveR isn't the only one out of touch with reality because you can count me in as well.   The average wage in central London in 2017 is £48,023.00   and Corbyn'e alleged income of £137K  obviously puts him in a different income bracket.
The only thing I can agree with you is that the top politicians job does appear to be underpaid in comparison to others. but he is not poor by any stretch of the imagination.

As regards Corbyn's tax return, I would imagine that the  £27K  plus that is shown as being paid as Labour Leader is because he wasn't selected as Leader until the 26th September 2015 so that amount may have been on a pro rata basis.
At least Corbyn revealed  his return in all its transparency unlike Dodgy Dave Cameron who after four years of promising just produced a summary and explanation of his tax returns.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 07, 2017, 02:17:29 pm
It's an interesting one. In fact, more than half those living in London earn more than £34,473 and a fair number earn in excess of £200,000 (figures from ONC on the Median wage).

To be fair, JC only said he didn't think of himself as wealthy. Now, to get a true idea you'd have to see his charity donations, some of which could be learnt from the number of charities for which he's applied for tax offset. Does that make him out of touch? I always remember as a young bloke, questioning why Union leaders were paid so much. The theory went that Unions, unlike private employers, paid their management what they were worth. Of course, their worth is a highly subjective quantity. But although JC is paid well (and doesn't need a second home, either) it's a bit thick to accuse him of being out of thouch simply because he earns that amount, when rather a lot of the Tory party are earning so much they hardly know what to do with it.

I make no bones about thinking he's utterly the wrong bloke to lead the Labour party but he seems genuine and, despite all the efforts of the well-funded Tory press, nothing has been discovered about him that leads me to believe otherwise. As Bosun says, he's certainly deluded but being delusional has never seemed to be a bar to being a politician.  If anything, it sometimes seems a prerequisite.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on March 07, 2017, 03:26:15 pm
That's a good point he did say he didn't think of himself as wealthy. It's all about perspective, I bet most of us don't think of ourselves as wealthy but to people in the 3rd world we all certainly would be!

He's a politician, and not just a politician but leader of the opposition. Compare what he has with the likes of Tony Blair and John Prescott and I think there is argument to say he's not as wealthy as many of his contemporary's.

Now there's argument of course to say that what he has is too much anyway, but compare what he gets to what the England football manager gets and the difference of importance between the two drops then again I can see why he may not consider himself 'wealthy'

Also every England manager since Bobby Robson has been pants  :P
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 07, 2017, 03:47:52 pm
You are spot on with everything that you have said BTR and it is all about perspective.      When you think that a top football player in this country will earn more in a week than the PM or other Party leaders earn in a year, it makes you think that the world has gone mad.
You're right too about the England managers.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 08, 2017, 09:17:11 am
To be fair, JC only said he didn't think of himself as wealthy.
And that is the point. Any ordinary person who suddenly found themselves earning £137,000 a year would think themselves wealthy. The fact that he doesn't indicates, as I said originally, that he is out of touch with ordinary people in this country.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on March 08, 2017, 09:36:02 am
You're talking about a tiny, tiny, part of the population who earns those sort of amounts.

Can I point out that there are over 1.2 million people (ONS) on basic salaries of over £100k in the UK, and that doesn't include those with all the bonuses and inducements that push salary packages over that figure. Nor does it include the businessmen and women who write everything of against tax, such as a very nice chap I know who has his boat in a local marina and an aircraft at a local airfield, both paid for and maintained at his companies expense with the full agreement of the tax officials, 'for entertaining clients' and whose company generates so much cash, he has so much stashed away that he admits that he doesn't know what to do with it, yet on paper his pay is £25k. He is not in the minority of business people; everything is written off against tax. I know a builder who writes his dog food off as he claims his dog is a guard dog and the businesses security. It may not be illegal in avoiding tax, but as that odious being Trump said, "not paying taxes makes me smart", legitimising the whole dubious arrangements. So, I suggest that 1.2 million is a mere fraction of those that actually, in reality, have over £100k a year. That is not a tiny, tiny part of the population. The ONS also suggests over 6,000 people have a salary of over £2,000,000.

As B2R says, we have wealth beyond the dreams of Avarice to the 3rd world, and possibly even, to the previous generation.

Getting back to the London issue: £137k a year when the average price of a terraced house is £650k, it costs several thousand pounds for a railcard just to get to work each year, car insurance is multiple thousands and beer tops £4.20 a pint and you spend hours every day in traffic jams whilst the air quality chokes you, just to be pilloried in the press every day of your life for simply being wrong about everything he says or does doesn't seem worth it......

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 10:10:28 am
To be fair, JC only said he didn't think of himself as wealthy.
And that is the point. Any ordinary person who suddenly found themselves earning £137,000 a year would think themselves wealthy. The fact that he doesn't indicates, as I said originally, that he is out of touch with ordinary people in this country.

But that's not what you originally said.  If I may take the opportunity to remind you:

"Corbyn's comment that he is not wealthy, despite earning £137,000 a year, shows how out of touch he really is."

I'm no defender of JC - far from it - but we need to stick to the facts. JC did not say he was not wealthy, only that he never thought of himself as wealthy.  There's a world of difference.  For a start, he's not saying he isn't wealthy.  He's better off than many, which he knows and has never denied.  But at least he's being open and honest about his earnings.  I'm far more interested in why Phil Hammond isn't publishing his tax returns.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 08, 2017, 10:15:53 am
You're talking about a tiny, tiny, part of the population who earns those sort of amounts.

Can I point out that there are over 1.2 million people (ONS) on basic salaries of over £100k in the UK, and that doesn't include those with all the bonuses and inducements that push salary packages over that figure. Nor does it include the businessmen and women who write everything of against tax, such as a very nice chap I know who has his boat in a local marina and an aircraft at a local airfield, both paid for and maintained at his companies expense with the full agreement of the tax officials, 'for entertaining clients' and whose company generates so much cash, he has so much stashed away that he admits that he doesn't know what to do with it, yet on paper his pay is £25k. He is not in the minority of business people; everything is written off against tax. I know a builder who writes his dog food off as he claims his dog is a guard dog and the businesses security. It may not be illegal in avoiding tax, but as that odious being Trump said, "not paying taxes makes me smart", legitimising the whole dubious arrangements. So, I suggest that 1.2 million is a mere fraction of those that actually, in reality, have over £100k a year. That is not a tiny, tiny part of the population. The ONS also suggests over 6,000 people have a salary of over £2,000,000.

As B2R says, we have wealth beyond the dreams of Avarice to the 3rd world, and possibly even, to the previous generation.

Getting back to the London issue: £137k a year when the average price of a terraced house is £650k, it costs several thousand pounds for a railcard just to get to work each year, car insurance is multiple thousands and beer tops £4.20 a pint and you spend hours every day in traffic jams whilst the air quality chokes you, just to be pilloried in the press every day of your life for simply being wrong about everything he says or does doesn't seem worth it......

Some excellent points, there; our youngest earns more than £100k, and he's not wealthy by any definition. He's 'comfortable'.  But very close friends of ours (who happen to be Tory politicians, so meals with them are interesting times :-) are pulling out of politics for the reasons you mention.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 15, 2017, 01:41:43 pm
Plans to increase National Insurance levels for self-employed people - announced in the Budget last week - have been dropped.
Chancellor Philip Hammond has said the government will not proceed with the increases which were criticised for breaking a 2015 manifesto pledge.
In a letter to Tory MPs, he said: "There will be no increases in... rates in this Parliament."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39278968 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39278968)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2017, 02:28:50 pm
Labour's Jeremy Corbyn said the U-turn showed a government "in chaos"    he might be right in this case but sadly he can't see that's what he's done to his own party.
Politicians, Bankers and Developers have all perfected the art of misleading people or being economical with the truth.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on March 15, 2017, 02:39:49 pm
Labour's Jeremy Corbyn said the U-turn showed a government "in chaos"    he might be right in this case but sadly he can't see that's what he's done to his own party.
Politicians, Bankers and Developers have all perfected the art of misleading people or being economical with the truth.

You can add solicitors and barristers to that list, those that know their clients to be guilty but defend them, make ludicrous compensation or appeal claims on their clients behalf - and are happy to be paid for it, mainly from legal aid.

Alternative truths have become the norm.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2017, 03:28:15 pm
Well said Bosun, and you can add some accountants and some Freemasons to the list too.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on April 18, 2017, 11:19:15 am
UK PM Theresa May announces plan to call snap general election on 8 June.
She said Britain needed certainty, stability and strong leadership following the EU referendum.
Justifying the decision, Mrs May referred to Brexit, saying: "The country is coming together but Westminster is not."
There will be a Commons vote on the proposed election on Wednesday.
Explaining her change of heart on an early election, Mrs May said: "I have concluded the only way to guarantee certainty and security for years ahead is to hold this election." refBBC
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on April 18, 2017, 12:28:07 pm
So, the Scots are not allowed an election / referendum...... we don't even want one, but are forced to have one!  Don't you just love politicians.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on April 18, 2017, 01:04:39 pm
So, the Scots are not allowed an election / referendum...... we don't even want one, but are forced to have one!  Don't you just love politicians.


I thought we were supposed to have fixed term governments now???
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 18, 2017, 02:01:25 pm
True, but  Parliament makes the rules...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 21, 2017, 11:07:10 am
I assume our MP - Bebb - still lives outside his constituency?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Nemesis on April 21, 2017, 11:36:11 am
So, the Scots are not allowed an election / referendum...... we don't even want one, but are forced to have one!  Don't you just love politicians.

To answer your question........NO !
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 22, 2017, 08:31:44 am
Local Tory party members weren't allowed to vote on Bebb's nomination.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/aberconwy-tories-angry-over-denial-12928643 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/aberconwy-tories-angry-over-denial-12928643)

In true style, he wouldn't even talk to the Daily Post about the furore. So it appears that someone even the local party didn't vote for and whose house isn't even in his own constituency might be elected as MP. Who's for democracy, then?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 23, 2017, 12:35:28 pm
Perhaps Jeremy will let the voters know exactly what the Labour Party's view is  on immigration , defence, capping benefits, Brexit and Gibraltar and all the other issues before the General election in June


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39683989 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39683989)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 26, 2017, 10:38:21 am
I found this BBC news article amazing, it shows the absolute depths to which Corbyn has decimated Labour Party support:

The Edwards, father and son, told me they'd both been Labour voters all their lives. But could they switch? Mark told me his 85-year-old father had already done so. He said "she is wonderful, best we've had," when he started talking about Theresa May.

Mr Edwards senior told me he had been 'life-long Labour' but that Jeremy Corbyn was "30 or 40 years out of date - he wants to introduce a gimmick, communism".

He was plainly angry about what's happened to the Labour party in recent years, saying it had been led by "conmen". Mr Edwards parting shot was "bye, bye Mr Corbyn"

Another voter, Brian Holley presented his own dilemma, that could be shared by many voters in Wales, where overall, the vote was to leave the EU. Brian told me he'd voted to Leave but his local Labour MP had backed Remain.

That was reason for him to be, as he expressed it, "on the border" between sticking with Labour and voting Tory for the first time.

Sharing a morning cuppa with him was Eira Linehan, who said for the "first time ever" she was considering voting Tory because while she agreed with Jeremy Corbyn's ideas, they wouldn't work in the "real world".

They said "we're all Labour" in their constituency, but they are likely to vote Tory because of Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, even though, "my father will be spinning in his grave".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39713864 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39713864)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 26, 2017, 11:27:47 am
The Communist party - for the first time in its history - has decoded not to field any candidates against Labour, apparently because they don't want to damage the possibility of a real left-wing Labour government.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on April 26, 2017, 01:06:15 pm
The Communist party - for the first time in its history - has decoded not to field any candidates against Labour, apparently because they don't want to damage the possibility of a real left-wing Labour government.
Considering they received a total of 1,229 votes in the 2015 UK Election, i doubt anyone will be remotely concerned about whether they field any candidates or not!  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on April 26, 2017, 01:28:14 pm
 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

.... and most of those were polled by Born to Run. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 26, 2017, 02:04:31 pm
The Communist party - for the first time in its history - has decoded not to field any candidates against Labour, apparently because they don't want to damage the possibility of a real left-wing Labour government.
Considering they received a total of 1,229 votes in the 2015 UK Election, i doubt anyone will be remotely concerned about whether they field any candidates or not!  :laugh:

Maybe 1229 folk will be    _))* _))* _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 02, 2017, 02:18:44 pm
Before you decide on who you will vote for, listen to this:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/diane-abbotts-agonising-interview-over-policy-cost/ (http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/diane-abbotts-agonising-interview-over-policy-cost/)

....then think, do you really want to vote for a party that gives an idiot like this a position as a potential Home Secretary?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 02, 2017, 02:45:40 pm
Then, she compounds her idiocy.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39775693 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39775693)

If it wasn't so tragic, it would be hilarious.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 02, 2017, 02:46:41 pm
It's too depressing to think about...

Mind you, stupidity is catching.  In Poundland this morning we saw a saying, commercially produced, on a clear plastic background suitable for displaying in your home. It read

"If you wake up each morning with a positive thought your on the right track".
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 02, 2017, 04:28:41 pm
Before you decide on who you will vote for, listen to this:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/diane-abbotts-agonising-interview-over-policy-cost/ (http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/diane-abbotts-agonising-interview-over-policy-cost/)

....then think, do you really want to vote for a party that gives an idiot like this a position as a potential Home Secretary?

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hugPxDlBmFw/VxvA0EJZlwI/AAAAAAAAJ5o/4eAzsOEsDXQaGF3Kjv3kW9udaPlhAPgMQCLcB/s640/18149_Boris-Johnson-wins-seat-MP%2B%2528%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 02, 2017, 04:40:44 pm
I'll see you and raise....

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 02, 2017, 05:52:12 pm
Do we think all those glasses are of vodka?

Could explain Diane Abbot's mistake(s) earlier  ZXZ
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 02, 2017, 10:40:28 pm
Do we think all those glasses are of vodka?

Could explain Diane Abbot's mistake(s) earlier  ZXZ

She hasn't got 2 brain cells to rub together has she?
For many years now she's been the 'token black female' in the shadow cabinet, and it's just not conducive to making any progress whatsoever.
I've nothing against the lady whatsoever, but she always seems hopelessly out of her depth.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 03, 2017, 07:34:02 am
I suspect leading a national party does require a smidgeon of intellect and, in particular, a memory for figures so the researcher's efforts aren't entirely in vain. I suspect she's a tad short on both. But the whole thing is just so depressing.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 05, 2017, 10:19:11 pm
Strange, the one quote that I haven't heard today is that Jeremey Corbyn is a 'Prime Minister in the waiting...'
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 05, 2017, 10:59:11 pm
Don't hold your breath on that one Bosun      &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 06, 2017, 02:55:00 pm
The Daily Mirror quoted a comment from Jeremy Corbyn today and it was " We lost seats but we are closing the gap on the Tories"      Only a politician like Jeremy or Diane Abbott could work that one out.        &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 06, 2017, 09:58:28 pm
Why is everyone blaming Corbyn for the disaster that is now the Labour Party?

It was known before he was elected as leader that he was a well meaning, if deluded, simpleton, so blame this shambles on idiots who voted for him to be Leader of the Labour Party.

If David had been elected instead of his half-witted brother Ed, Labour could still be in power today.

The block-vote of the Unions swung that. 

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 07, 2017, 09:15:25 am
The Unions can only blame themselves for electing  Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn but Corbyn has done more harm to the Labour Party than any Tory could ever inflict on it.
He has voted against Labour more often than any Tory ever has and I just hope that as soon as he resigns Labour may have a better chance of recovery in the future
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 07, 2017, 11:20:01 am
It says a lot when MP's don't want their own leader to visit their constituency prior to the General Election

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39826375 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39826375)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 08, 2017, 08:33:53 am
The Unions can only blame themselves for electing  Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn but Corbyn has done more harm to the Labour Party than any Tory could ever inflict on it.
He has voted against Labour more often than any Tory ever has and I just hope that as soon as he resigns Labour may have a better chance of recovery in the future

If the Labour vote collapses at the General election it will be interesting to see if he does, indeed, stand down. It wouldn't in the least surprise me if he didn't, quoting the 'vast numbers of ordinary members' who voted him as leader.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 08, 2017, 09:39:37 am
Many years ago when I first started voting,  I was told by an older person about some MP's in the Labour Party.      These MP'S  had more in common with the Communist Party, but because they knew that they would never be elected into Parliament representing that Party they chose to stand as  Labour candidates and express their true political views once they had become an MP.
If Labour lose the election then Corbyn should do the decent thing and resign before he does irreparable damage to the Labour Party
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 08, 2017, 11:12:45 am
The Unions can only blame themselves for electing  Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn but Corbyn has done more harm to the Labour Party than any Tory could ever inflict on it.
He has voted against Labour more often than any Tory ever has and I just hope that as soon as he resigns Labour may have a better chance of recovery in the future

If the Labour vote collapses at the General election it will be interesting to see if he does, indeed, stand down. It wouldn't in the least surprise me if he didn't, quoting the 'vast numbers of ordinary members' who voted him as leader.

Sadly, I could not agree more, it will be an interesting - if depressing, time. I think that it is sad that history never gave the two people who I believe would have changed this country for the better, John Smith and David Miliband, an opportunity to lead the Labour Party in to government.

Hugo, I'm sure you are correct with your anecdote, and I'd also guess that there are as many closet fascists as there are communists. 

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on May 08, 2017, 01:50:19 pm
The Unions can only blame themselves for electing  Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn but Corbyn has done more harm to the Labour Party than any Tory could ever inflict on it.
He has voted against Labour more often than any Tory ever has and I just hope that as soon as he resigns Labour may have a better chance of recovery in the future

If the Labour vote collapses at the General election it will be interesting to see if he does, indeed, stand down. It wouldn't in the least surprise me if he didn't, quoting the 'vast numbers of ordinary members' who voted him as leader.

Sadly, I could not agree more, it will be an interesting - if depressing, time. I think that it is sad that history never gave the two people who I believe would have changed this country for the better, John Smith and David Miliband, an opportunity to lead the Labour Party in to government.

Hugo, I'm sure you are correct with your anecdote, and I'd also guess that there are as many closet fascists as there are communists. 

 


Cheer up, Tony Blair is talking of a comeback!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 09, 2017, 07:02:36 pm
Try to catch BBC news tonight.  Excellent bit in which they show the headlines of the DFM in 2010 and now, in 2017. They're both concerned with the proposed energy cap. When Milliband proposed it the DFM called it Marxist, but now KJMay is saying it, the same idea's apparently a great idea. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 10, 2017, 10:30:25 pm
The draft document includes plans to nationalise the energy firms and the railways


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39877439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39877439)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 12, 2017, 11:11:47 am
The draft document includes plans to nationalise the energy firms and the railways


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39877439 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39877439)
Is it 1974 again?  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 12, 2017, 11:17:10 am
It's very depressing...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 15, 2017, 03:37:35 pm
The Unions can only blame themselves for electing  Ed Milliband and Jeremy Corbyn but Corbyn has done more harm to the Labour Party than any Tory could ever inflict on it.
He has voted against Labour more often than any Tory ever has and I just hope that as soon as he resigns Labour may have a better chance of recovery in the future

Hang on a minute! There was no 'block' voting from Unions. It was one man one vote. However non members of the Labour party could vote as members of the union.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 15, 2017, 05:45:13 pm
You are correct of course but then it makes you wonder how so many voted for a pair of losers.     &shake&

It seems that there is worse to come and I just hope that the Labour Party won't now be confined to the political wilderness like they were when the other no hoper Michael Foot was the leader of the party


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/08/jeremy-corbyn-vows-stay-labour-leader-no-matter-election-result/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/08/jeremy-corbyn-vows-stay-labour-leader-no-matter-election-result/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 18, 2017, 01:01:54 pm
Wow

The Torys manifesto has gone down like a lead balloon. Even the 'top rated' comments on the Daily Mail are laying into it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4517736/May-unveils-tough-love-manifesto-vowing-shore-care.html#comments (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4517736/May-unveils-tough-love-manifesto-vowing-shore-care.html#comments)

Is there a chance they are trying to lose this election on purpose?

I can't see any other logic for her or her party's behaviour over this campaign.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 18, 2017, 02:01:40 pm
You've forgotten that anything the DFM disapproves of will bring millions to her side.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 18, 2017, 04:21:40 pm
It's not the paper that is disapproving the journalists are blowing her trumpet. It's the readers, even the staunchest Tories are disgusted with this.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 18, 2017, 04:41:25 pm
Trouble is those comments may not be from Tories at all.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 19, 2017, 05:20:21 am
I wonder if it's because I'm getting older and less passionate (or opinionated) about politics, but my enthusiasm for this election is less than bubbling.

No matter what policies the Labour party come out with, or how much I agree with them, they can say anything or promise anything because they know that they are never going to be held to account to provide it. Because like the politicians in the 'Leave' camp, even in the highly unlikely position the Labour party did win, it'd be a case of "Oh, that £350m, that was never going to happen....." And the disaster that is the well meaning but deluded Corbyn, who cannot even run his own party - combined with the moronic Abbott and that appallingly dreadful woman Thornbury in charge of the country fill me with absolute and utter horror.

For me the jury is out on Mrs May, but it's undermined by her selection of that idiot Johnson as Foreign Secretary, the cretin Hammond as Chancellor and the buffoon Fallon on Defence. Don't even get me started on Hunt....... But, I suppose like Corbyn, she had a limited choice of losers to choose from.

And Tim  (nice but dim) should stick to TV comedy shows.

But I think I know the reason for my disillusion - after the fiasco and lies that was Brexit, producing an awfully uncertain future for the country, and the horror that is and continually grows worse in the form of Trump, I'm all election nightmared out.

Will someone please wake me when it's all over? 

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 19, 2017, 08:38:40 am
I suspect Election fatigue will shortly appear as a recognised medical syndrome. I'd agree about May: she's coming over well on camera and far, far better than the egregious Thatcher ever did. And entirely agree about the murky Fallon, who exudes unpleasantness and Hunt, whose last name has always been misspelled. Abbott needs Costello, to make any sense at all, and yes - Thornbury et.al - maybe there should be a musical about them?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 19, 2017, 09:22:29 pm
This is another excellent piece by Jonathon Freedland in the Guardian who is quickly becoming one of my favourite young journalists, I like his take on things.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/19/british-voters-rejecting-santa-embracing-scrooge-labour-popularity (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/19/british-voters-rejecting-santa-embracing-scrooge-labour-popularity)

It does answer a lot of the questions I am struggling with in the dichotomy (?) of the current political situation, and I would suggest, many others are in the same situation.

In the scheme of things, it appears that it would take a momentous event to change the emerging course of the election.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 20, 2017, 12:49:40 am
I did predict (on this Forum), that the Brexit referendum would be a shambolic and divisive mess, and it certainly was.

I'm now safely predicting that the 8th June General Election will be easily, and by far, the LOWEST turnout ever.

I won't be wasting MY time, that's for sure.... the polling cards in my house were shredded within an hour of them coming through the door.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 20, 2017, 08:29:41 am
In Clwyd West we only have a choice of 4 candidates,  I'm not impressed by any of them to be honest. Whatever happened to the Monster Raving Looney Party when you need them!  They say we should vote, but who do you vote for when you don't like any of the 4 options?   &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 20, 2017, 11:00:43 am
The Communist Party backs Corbyn in the General Election  and will not have any candidates in the election.     Perhaps it's because all their comrades are already in the Labour Party?


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjx2vS0mv7TAhUcOsAKHSdlDJwQFggzMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F795899%2FGeneral-election-2017-latest-communist-party-jeremy-corbyn-candidates&usg=AFQjCNElNi44T2Xc_dCBScnqtkDka60jpg (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjx2vS0mv7TAhUcOsAKHSdlDJwQFggzMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.express.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2F795899%2FGeneral-election-2017-latest-communist-party-jeremy-corbyn-candidates&usg=AFQjCNElNi44T2Xc_dCBScnqtkDka60jpg)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on May 21, 2017, 10:32:04 pm
do it the easy way ME put the names in a hat and pull one out it will make no difference who you pull out the country will still end up in a mess
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 23, 2017, 07:32:03 am
The one thing that I have realised from the tragic and sickening events of last night is that I cannot, and never will, bring myself to vote for the party of a potential Prime Minister who has repeatedly refused to categorically and unreservedly condemn an organisation that has caused similar atrocities, no matter what manifesto policies that party might have.

Our thoughts are with the families and friends of the dead and injured, including those who will be traumatised for life by this vile event, including the emergency services.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 23, 2017, 07:49:49 am
What happened in Manchester was horrendous and your sentiments are the same as mine Bosun.     
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 23, 2017, 12:21:19 pm
"He said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”

Quite clearly

He said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/05/no-jeremy-corbyn-did-not-refuse-condemn-ira-please-stop-saying-he-did (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/05/no-jeremy-corbyn-did-not-refuse-condemn-ira-please-stop-saying-he-did)

Listen to the recording yourself

That is what he said. It's clear this was grossly misreported.

He has since said even more explicitly "http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/22/jeremy-corbyn-has-finally-called-the-ira-terrorists-6653633/"



But if you want to vote for the party that has cut twenty thousand police since 2009 then I'm sure we'll all be a lot safer  $good$.

God help the next generation.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 23, 2017, 01:07:20 pm
"He said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”

Quite clearly

He said: “I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.”

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/05/no-jeremy-corbyn-did-not-refuse-condemn-ira-please-stop-saying-he-did (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/media/2017/05/no-jeremy-corbyn-did-not-refuse-condemn-ira-please-stop-saying-he-did)

Listen to the recording yourself

That is what he said. It's clear this was grossly misreported.

He has since said even more explicitly "http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/22/jeremy-corbyn-has-finally-called-the-ira-terrorists-6653633/"



But if you want to vote for the party that has cut twenty thousand police since 2009 then I'm sure we'll all be a lot safer  $good$.

God help the next generation.

I wasn't specifically referring to that infamous interview, I was referring to the last 35 plus years of both Corbyn's and John Mc Donnell's well documented support for the IRA. No-one in their right mind would ever suggest or even infer that there was any legitimacy whatsoever in the IRA's despicable actions that caused carnage and devastation - which both Corbyn and Mc Donnell have done.

On a day like today - they should both hang their heads in shame.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 23, 2017, 02:43:04 pm
I would say last night's atrocity has more to do with the millions of Muslims killed since 9/11 than anything the IRA ever said or did.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394 (http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/unworthy-victims-western-wars-have-killed-four-million-muslims-1990-39149394)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 23, 2017, 03:40:20 pm
Well, I would want to know how they arrived at that figure, and what their sources were. But we have to remember that 9/11 was an act of barbaric slaughter by Muslims on innocent victims.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 23, 2017, 03:46:07 pm
Absolutely it was a needless and horrific event but I don't believe that the US response to that can ever be justified.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 23, 2017, 05:12:16 pm
In troubled times like this what the UK needs is a  strong and decisive leadership, a good economy and a strong and competent Home Secretary.
What the Labour Party are offering to fill these roles are Corbyn,  McDonnell and Diane Abbott.        &shake&

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiBpYWKqIbUAhViLsAKHcffD40QqUMIJDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesun.co.uk%2Fnews%2F3625746%2Finnocent-people-were-murdered-specifically-because-jeremy-corbyn-and-john-mcdonnell-sucked-up-to-the-ira%2F&usg=AFQjCNHz2wBeOcer3S2AgxgWFg8DkwRDmA (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiBpYWKqIbUAhViLsAKHcffD40QqUMIJDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesun.co.uk%2Fnews%2F3625746%2Finnocent-people-were-murdered-specifically-because-jeremy-corbyn-and-john-mcdonnell-sucked-up-to-the-ira%2F&usg=AFQjCNHz2wBeOcer3S2AgxgWFg8DkwRDmA)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 23, 2017, 09:50:00 pm

B2R, I don't know whether you are not reading what I wrote, or I'm not writing what you read, but I'll try and simplify it for you.

Not to utterly and totally condemn acts of carnage and terrorism is wrong. Corbyn and McDonnell failed to do that for 35 plus years and supported those who were involved in committing those atrocities. They should be disgusted with their conduct and those who support them should be ashamed. No matter how much I may agree with the  policies of the Labour party, I'll never vote for them whilst those two hold positions of influence. 

Our thoughts are with families and of the dead and injured in Manchester in a wanton act of savage carnage. Yet sadly, and sickeningly, someone, somewhere will be justifying it and tacitly supporting it.

Supporting or trying to justify terrorism in any form is sickening. Condemn it.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 24, 2017, 08:04:14 am
Absolutely it was a needless and horrific event but I don't believe that the US response to that can ever be justified.

To be honest I thought the response was surprisingly muted, given the scale of the atrocity. And the IRA were in a different class: for a start, they didn't kill themselves in the process. other than by accident. And they concentrated their efforts on destroying property and causing chaos, rather than killing people.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 24, 2017, 08:10:18 am
I have to say that the tone of the comments from the various leaders was almost unanimous, yesterday. With the exception of Corbyn they condemned the barbarity and pure evil of the perpetrators. Corbyn sidestepped direct condemnation in the terms others had used.  Now, this may be down to the fact that he doesn't tend to discuss people very much and concentrates more on actions and policies. But at the moment I'm not sure that's what folk need to hear.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 24, 2017, 08:44:21 am

B2R, I don't know whether you are not reading what I wrote, or I'm not writing what you read, but I'll try and simplify it for you.

Not to utterly and totally condemn acts of carnage and terrorism is wrong. Corbyn and McDonnell failed to do that for 35 plus years and supported those who were involved in committing those atrocities. They should be disgusted with their conduct and those who support them should be ashamed. No matter how much I may agree with the  policies of the Labour party, I'll never vote for them whilst those two hold positions of influence. 

Our thoughts are with families and of the dead and injured in Manchester in a wanton act of savage carnage. Yet sadly, and sickeningly, someone, somewhere will be justifying it and tacitly supporting it.

Supporting or trying to justify terrorism in any form is sickening. Condemn it.

What on earth are you wittering on about?

Corbyn did condemn this attack

"In the midst of our democratic debate and arguments we’re united in condemning this depraved act of terror."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/our-hearts-broken-resolve-never-10485855 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/our-hearts-broken-resolve-never-10485855)

He did also condemn the IRA bombings as I have posted earlier.

The IRA have nothing to do with this attack, through successful negotiations we now have peace (at least for the time being) in Northern Ireland. That is something Jeremy Corbyn has always wanted - he wasn't in the IRA, he never supported the IRA. This lady though - she was an active member of the IRA, she actively participated in terrorist acts.... so I assume you'll never vote Tory because of your beliefs either?

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/activists-point-to-councillor-8217-s-ira-past-as-tories-claim-corbyn-refused-to-condemn-terrorists/story-30346739-detail/story.html (http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/activists-point-to-councillor-8217-s-ira-past-as-tories-claim-corbyn-refused-to-condemn-terrorists/story-30346739-detail/story.html)

Finally you bleat about political point scoring - you were the one who mentioned Jeremy Corbyn in the first place! Like he is in someway responsible for this attack. This has nothing to do with the IRA, nothing to do with Corbyn and all to do with the aftermath of 9/11 and the strains on our policing and security services.

No need at all to mention Jeremy Corbyn who like the rest of us is shocked and saddened that such a thing has happened.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 24, 2017, 09:38:16 am
I must have missed the part that mentioned anything about 'political point scoring', and if you think that there is really peace in Northern Ireland, you don't have any concept of the circumstances that actually currently exist there. It's also interesting to know that the Croydon Advertiser is the mainstay of your 'informed' opinions. As for Jeremy Corbyn never supporting the IRA, I suggest you read this :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11924431/Revealed-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11924431/Revealed-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html) and note the referencing for the points in the article, before you describe it as 'right-wing press propaganda'.

but, I admit it's not exactly the same as having it in such a doyen of the press as the Croydon Advertiser.

And, finally, I'm sorry B2R, I can't make it any simpler for you with giving you wax crayons. I said " I cannot, and never will, bring myself to vote for the party of a potential Prime Minister who has repeatedly refused to categorically and unreservedly condemn an organisation that has caused similar atrocities."

Perhaps we should just spend some time with our thoughts for the people who are suffering from the tragedy and sadness that this atrocity, the parents, the maimed children, relatives, the list is endless. To target deliberately children - sorry, I cannot even begin comprehend it.   


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 24, 2017, 10:53:58 am
Well perhaps next time you want remember people suffering from tragedy and sadness do that, instead of trying to tenuously connect what happened to a politician standing for election. I certainly had no intention of discussing politics until you made your ridiculous statement about Jeremy Corbyn.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 24, 2017, 11:11:34 am
Well perhaps next time you want remember people suffering from tragedy and sadness do that, instead of trying to tenuously connect what happened to a politician standing for election. I certainly had no intention of discussing politics until you made your ridiculous statement about Jeremy Corbyn.

Congratulations. You've won the wax crayons outright.....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 25, 2017, 08:54:56 am
We are now reaping what Blair has sown...

"it is easy to forget just how much immigration and asylum haunted Downing Street throughout New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010, net annual immigration quadrupled, and the UK population was boosted by more than 2.2 million immigrants, more than twice the population of Birmingham. In Labour’s last term in government, 2005-2010, net migration reached on average 247,000 a year."*

Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis. Lets look at terrorist attacks in the UK and who committed them:

2017 Manchester - Salman Abedi
2017 Westminster - Khalid Masood
2015 Leytonstone - Muhiddin Mire
2013 Lee Rigby Murder - Michael Adebolajo & Michael Adebowale
2007 Glasgow Airport - Bilal Abdulla and Kafeel Ahmed
2005 London - Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Abdullah Shaheed Jamal, Hasib Mir Hussain

MI5 are currently monitoring more than 3,000 Islamists willing to carry out attacks in Britain.**

Scary times.... &shake&


* https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story (https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story)
** - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3000-terror-suspects-plotting-to-attack-uk-t7hfpqfbbp6 (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3000-terror-suspects-plotting-to-attack-uk-t7hfpqfbbp6)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on May 25, 2017, 09:25:57 am
The attacker was born here what has immigration got to do with anything?

It's thanks to that immigration that we have Doctors in our hospitals saving lives, thanks to that immigration that we have a stronger economy.

Between the 70s and the 90s nearly all terrorist attacks were carried out by Irish people.
Did you want to curb the number of Irish people moving to Britain?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 25, 2017, 10:10:12 am
But from your own list, Dave, weren't the last four terrorist acts committed under a Tory-led government?

Immigration has continued to rise under..er, let me see if I can remember... Oh yes - Teresa May as Home Secretary. And the Times link is not accessible to anyone who doesn't continue to fund Murdock's evil empire.

The Guardian link, however, is interesting and reveals that many of the immigration cases were and are asylum seekers. What would you have any government do?

But let's get this clear: to say
Quote
Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.
is like saying thanks to Julius Caesar we can look forward to world wide wars. And it's worth remembering that the greatest immigration over the last four years has been from Pakistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and that was when Teresa was Home Secretary.  So a bit of balance please.   

And in the '80s Meibion Glyndŵr was busily destroying houses in Wales, so perhaps we should deport all the Welsh? I hear Rockall's nice at this time of year  WWW

My biggest concern is how all this plays into the hands of UKIP, whose manifesto is now available (https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/3485/attachments/original/1489398291/UKIPLocalManifesto2017opt.pdf?1489398291).



Title: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Hugo on May 25, 2017, 11:14:33 pm
I was in Chester today, and noticed two armed police officers casually walking around the centre, with those large military-style assault rifles (or whatever they are - I'm no gun expert) held across their chests as if in readiness to use.

This was in the midst of kids eating their ice creams, people enjoying the sun, etc. These police didn't look as if they'd been called out to deal with any particular scare/threat - just patrolling.

Seems really over the top to me. I can understand the need to have such officers on readiness nearby. But walking around like that unnecessarily alarming people? I don't think Britain is quite a war zone yet, is it? And given the particular nature of the threat, I doubt it makes us any safer.

How often have we heard people complaining about not having Bobbies patrolling the streets anymore, there may be no obvious threat or scare then but it gives the public some reassurance when they see them out and about
The threats are never obvious,  but you've seen children and adults enjoying music and then being the innocent victims of a terrorist.
Just be grateful that we have these people protecting us.
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Fester on May 26, 2017, 12:17:39 am
BMD, you must be either out of your mind, or living in some smug fantasy world to complain about this. Which is it?
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2017, 08:07:21 am
I believe BMD is making a valid point. We're down in London quite a bit and the police there seem routinely armed, as they are in Manchester Airport so folk become inured to the sight of heavily armed specialist Police. But it's possible that the Security services have identified links locally between the Manchester individual and Chester or, the more likely option, they're making a show of parading force in areas with large concentrations of people.

But his last sentence is very important: given the particular nature of the threat, I doubt it makes us any safer. Suicide bombers aren't defeated by armed police. Hot weather, possibly, since they would stand out wearing a gelignite vest or heavy coat, but shooting a suspected suicide bomber is the very definition of counter-productive.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2017, 08:19:36 am
It shouldn't, I know, but it does disappoint me that Corbyn is linking the Manchester attack to British foreign policy.  He really should either invest in some decent researchers or do a bit of reading.

The roots of radical Islam go back to the early 19th Century and the concept of Jihad is well established in the religion as a legitimate war on non-Islamics in the cause of establishing the Islamic religion. I don't doubt that any involvement in the Arabian peninsula over the past 300 years has aggravated the situation but the main responsibility - if there is one - goes back to the 1100s and the crusades, where the Western powers at that time sought to eliminate the Arabs. The crusades managed to create long-lasting damage to the Arabian peoples, and they only really started emerging from that in the last 200 years.

But once again we're back to a very simple truism: the two things responsible for almost all wars are language and religion.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 26, 2017, 08:45:45 am
The attacker was born here what has immigration got to do with anything?

It's thanks to that immigration that we have Doctors in our hospitals saving lives, thanks to that immigration that we have a stronger economy.

Between the 70s and the 90s nearly all terrorist attacks were carried out by Irish people.
Did you want to curb the number of Irish people moving to Britain?
The attacker's parents were born in Libya:

"Abedi’s family was from Libya and some analysts believe the current wave of extremism is largely the work of a second generation of young people born to parents who migrated to the west. Yet many attackers, particularly in the last few years, have been much more recent immigrants.

Experts cite a range of “risk factors” linked to the experience of immigration. These include a sense of geographic dislocation, cultural gaps between generations and complex identity issues resulting in a sense of alienation.
"*

As regards immigration in general, you're perhaps missing the point. Immigration in itself is not a bad thing, but uncontrolled immigration, of the type seen during the Blair years, most certainly is. As we have seen on a regular basis, there are now significant numbers of people in this country who hate our society and everything it stands for.

You draw a comparison with Irish terrorism of the 80s and 90s. The IRA's aim was to force the UK to leave Northern Ireland. The aim of Islamic State is to totally destroy us and other Western countries. Can you see the difference?


* - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/salman-abedi-manchester-bomber-profile-islamist-terrorists (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/24/salman-abedi-manchester-bomber-profile-islamist-terrorists)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 26, 2017, 08:50:27 am
But from your own list, Dave, weren't the last four terrorist acts committed under a Tory-led government?

Immigration has continued to rise under..er, let me see if I can remember... Oh yes - Teresa May as Home Secretary. And the Times link is not accessible to anyone who doesn't continue to fund Murdock's evil empire.

The Guardian link, however, is interesting and reveals that many of the immigration cases were and are asylum seekers. What would you have any government do?

But let's get this clear: to say
Quote
Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.
is like saying thanks to Julius Caesar we can look forward to world wide wars. And it's worth remembering that the greatest immigration over the last four years has been from Pakistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and that was when Teresa was Home Secretary.  So a bit of balance please.   

And in the '80s Meibion Glyndŵr was busily destroying houses in Wales, so perhaps we should deport all the Welsh? I hear Rockall's nice at this time of year  WWW

My biggest concern is how all this plays into the hands of UKIP, whose manifesto is now available (https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/ukipdev/pages/3485/attachments/original/1489398291/UKIPLocalManifesto2017opt.pdf?1489398291).
It's irrelevant who the Government is now, Ian, the point is that all the people who wish to destroy us are now in the country, happily plotting their acts of terror. How do you propose to deal with them?

Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: DaveR on May 26, 2017, 08:58:07 am
It's just a public show to try and reassure people. Sadly, as has been pointed out, it will have no effect on attacks. I predict terrorist attacks from supporters of IS who have been allowed to move to the UK will eventually become a weekly occurrence. As I pointed out on another thread, MI5 currently have over 3,000 Islamist terror supporters living in the UK under surveillance. The only way to prevent such terrorism was not to allow these people into the country into the first place and it's too late now.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on May 26, 2017, 10:58:56 am
My OH pointed this out to me last night, not sure if it's relevant, but I found it interesting.

Quoted from Facebook without reference..........
I'm a Muslim and proud to be one but I think it's time as Muslims we fix this bullshit problem we have. Yes we do have a problem with our community & so called 'Muslim' brothers. Whatever is going on it's time we stop blaming others, stop being the 'victims' & blaming the west. We need to fix this epidemic of inbreds from doing these despicable crimes. Sorry I don't care if you think I'm being harsh. Islam is a beautiful religion BUT these uneducated monkeys misinterpret things & feel they are acting on Gods behalf & it's only getting worse.

I am fed up of going back to the UK to visit home & see these ***** protest against the government or army or Poppy's or flags. Are you having a f*****g laugh? It's England, if they want to fly a flag they bloody well should. If they want to celebrate their army and all they should it's their country. If you don't like it, leave. I'd love to see these people talk crap in Muslim countries. They would be smashed in seconds. Locked up & tortured.

I think it's time the British or west deport not only those who speak bad or against the country but the entire family also. You come to a country to milk the benefit system, free education & health yet complain. Try that in Pakistan or the Gulf. See what will happen. It's pissing me off seeing this doggy doos. Monkeys like Anjem Choudhury etc. Try talk bad in the Muslim states and see.

Contribute to the country that looks after you and your family. Respect their culture and traditions the same way they do when they live in Muslim countries. Doesn't mean your going against your religion. It's respect & what's taught in Islam. Live by the laws of the land.

I was born and raised in England. Never had any issues with racism or islampbobia. My closest friends were English & non Muslims. They treated me like a brother and likewise. I was able to practice my religion without offending them and they did without offending me. But over the last decade I have noticed real changes and I don't like it.

I feel more Muslims need to start cleaning up our society. We are lucky to be able to have so many mosques in England, able to have free speech but don't take the piss. If you don't like what you see it's simple, LEAVE!

 We need more Muslims in our society who are looked up too to speak to the community, educate them and fix this doggy doos. I am ashamed to see what I do nowadays. It bothers me so much.

We need to clean our society up and start being more active in mosques and Muslim 'areas'. Educate them, flag the authorities if you see individuals act strange or become illusive, any dodgy behaviour go flag these people. The end of the day it's your country also so you need to protect is just as much.

I am Muslim and proud but if you have an issue with what I'm saying debate with me or raise your concerns, better yet delete me if you disagree. I'm not here too make friends or kiss ass. Muslims we need to start cleaning up our communities ASAP. We are just as much to blame for letting these idiots do these things as they are for sitting quiet. If we don't it won't stop only get worse.

Stop becoming militants and extremists. Pray, do good, give charity, be good to your family and elders, contribute to your community, help the place prosper. Integrate, speak the bloody language of the country, educate yourselves, if you cannot you don't deserve to be there in the first place. By community I mean the place you live.

I have so much to say it's hard to fit it all in a status but one thing is for sure WE Muslims need to start Looking in our own communities and really need to try help clean it up because as much as we want to blame others it's bullshit. We need to clean up first.

These Idiots are giving us all a bad name. To all those who work hard, act normal and so on. Time to fix up and seriously clean up our own people now!
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: BMD on May 26, 2017, 11:02:28 am
BMD, you must be either out of your mind, or living in some smug fantasy world to complain about this. Which is it?

Thanks. Neither is true, and I think you completely miss my point, as does Hugo.

Firstly, I was with my elderly mother - she nearly had a heart attack on seeing these armed police, thinking that it signified an attack taking place. I saw other people who looked alarmed, presumably thinking there was some imminent threat that they needed to get away from. But perhaps some people were reassured.

I don't blame the police for doing whatever they can to protect and reassure the public. I'm questioning whether this was the best way to do it in this particular case. I made some enquiries - unless some information is being withheld from the public, this was not in response to a specific threat, but rather a public show at a time of high alert.

Clearly not everyone is "reassured" by this in a place like Chester. Whether they "should" be or not is a separate issue. I didn't tell my mum that she "should" be reassured. I was simply concerned that she might be having a heart attack.

Secondly (and more relevant) is the point highlighted by Ian and DaveR - which is whether it's even effective as a preventive measure, given the nature of threat. I don't believe so. There's some research into the effectiveness of patrolling in this way. Many of the better-informed senior police think it's a poor use of resources (See Nick Davies' book 'Flat Earth News' - he exposes some largely media-created myths about the effectiveness of "patrolling" in general).

Obviously one wants armed police to deal with certain threats. You want them to be ready. But if the threat is so unspecific and attenuated in both location and timing, the effectiveness of just generally walking around populated areas like Chester is questionable (at best). As is the issue of "reassurance".

If you really think I'm "out of my mind" or "living in some smug fantasy world" for making these points, then you should think again, with respect.

See also this announcement from Cheshire Police regarding extra security measures for Chester races tomorrow (most of which seem sensible): https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news-and-appeals/news/cheshire-police-issue-reassurance-to-racegoers-with-extra-security-measures-put-in-place-ahead-of-chester-races-on-saturday/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter (https://www.cheshire.police.uk/news-and-appeals/news/cheshire-police-issue-reassurance-to-racegoers-with-extra-security-measures-put-in-place-ahead-of-chester-races-on-saturday/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2017, 11:06:22 am
017opt.pdf?1489398291]manifesto is now available[/url].

It's irrelevant who the Government is now, Ian, the point is that all the people who wish to destroy us are now in the country, happily plotting their acts of terror. How do you propose to deal with them?

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government:
Quote
New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010...Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.

On the second point if I had all the answers I'd be in Government. There are no easy answers. biut the best one has to be differentiating between Muslim lunatics and genuinely decent Muslims who make significant contributions to the country.

What would you do?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on May 26, 2017, 12:11:09 pm

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government

It was actually the Guardian that made the analysis about immigration:

"it is easy to forget just how much immigration and asylum haunted Downing Street throughout New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010, net annual immigration quadrupled, and the UK population was boosted by more than 2.2 million immigrants, more than twice the population of Birmingham. In Labour’s last term in government, 2005-2010, net migration reached on average 247,000 a year."

Quote
On the second point if I had all the answers I'd be in Government. There are no easy answers. biut the best one has to be differentiating between Muslim lunatics and genuinely decent Muslims who make significant contributions to the country. What would you do?
The problem is that terrorist attacks, such as the one that took place in Paris, are supported by a significant minority of the UK Muslim community:

"One in four British Muslims sympathise with terrorists behind the Charlie Hebdo attacks, a new poll shows. A poll reveals how a significant minority of Muslims endorse terrorist atrocities against those who mock the Prophet Mohammed. Some 27 per cent of British Muslims said they have "some sympathy for the motives behind the attacks" on the Paris magazine, according to polling by ComRes for the BBC."*

And therein lies the problem. Until the Muslim community makes a real stand against extremists, then no real progress will be made in combating the problem. Personally, I think that anyone who declares themselves to be opposed to our democratic society and has a declared aim of destroying it has no right to live here.

*  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on May 26, 2017, 12:23:06 pm
My OH pointed this out to me last night, not sure if it's relevant, but I found it interesting.

Quoted from Facebook without reference..........
I'm a Muslim and proud to be one but I think it's time as Muslims we fix this bullshit problem we have. Yes we do have a problem with our community & so called 'Muslim' brothers. Whatever is going on it's time we stop blaming others, stop being the 'victims' & blaming the west. We need to fix this epidemic of inbreds from doing these despicable crimes. Sorry I don't care if you think I'm being harsh. Islam is a beautiful religion BUT these uneducated monkeys misinterpret things & feel they are acting on Gods behalf & it's only getting worse.

I am fed up of going back to the UK to visit home & see these ***** protest against the government or army or Poppy's or flags. Are you having a f*****g laugh? It's England, if they want to fly a flag they bloody well should. If they want to celebrate their army and all they should it's their country. If you don't like it, leave. I'd love to see these people talk crap in Muslim countries. They would be smashed in seconds. Locked up & tortured.

I think it's time the British or west deport not only those who speak bad or against the country but the entire family also. You come to a country to milk the benefit system, free education & health yet complain. Try that in Pakistan or the Gulf. See what will happen. It's pissing me off seeing this doggy doos. Monkeys like Anjem Choudhury etc. Try talk bad in the Muslim states and see.

Contribute to the country that looks after you and your family. Respect their culture and traditions the same way they do when they live in Muslim countries. Doesn't mean your going against your religion. It's respect & what's taught in Islam. Live by the laws of the land.

I was born and raised in England. Never had any issues with racism or islampbobia. My closest friends were English & non Muslims. They treated me like a brother and likewise. I was able to practice my religion without offending them and they did without offending me. But over the last decade I have noticed real changes and I don't like it.

I feel more Muslims need to start cleaning up our society. We are lucky to be able to have so many mosques in England, able to have free speech but don't take the piss. If you don't like what you see it's simple, LEAVE!

 We need more Muslims in our society who are looked up too to speak to the community, educate them and fix this doggy doos. I am ashamed to see what I do nowadays. It bothers me so much.

We need to clean our society up and start being more active in mosques and Muslim 'areas'. Educate them, flag the authorities if you see individuals act strange or become illusive, any dodgy behaviour go flag these people. The end of the day it's your country also so you need to protect is just as much.

I am Muslim and proud but if you have an issue with what I'm saying debate with me or raise your concerns, better yet delete me if you disagree. I'm not here too make friends or kiss ass. Muslims we need to start cleaning up our communities ASAP. We are just as much to blame for letting these idiots do these things as they are for sitting quiet. If we don't it won't stop only get worse.

Stop becoming militants and extremists. Pray, do good, give charity, be good to your family and elders, contribute to your community, help the place prosper. Integrate, speak the bloody language of the country, educate yourselves, if you cannot you don't deserve to be there in the first place. By community I mean the place you live.

I have so much to say it's hard to fit it all in a status but one thing is for sure WE Muslims need to start Looking in our own communities and really need to try help clean it up because as much as we want to blame others it's bullshit. We need to clean up first.

These Idiots are giving us all a bad name. To all those who work hard, act normal and so on. Time to fix up and seriously clean up our own people now!
  Wise words, makes sense to me.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 26, 2017, 02:06:53 pm

On the first point I agree.  But it wasn't I who sought to place all the blame on a previous government

It was actually the Guardian that made the analysis about immigration:

*  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/11433776/Quarter-of-British-Muslims-sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html)

That was Charlie Hebdo and a different set of circumstances. Not right, of course, but as relevant to the current situation as your quote 
Quote
It's irrelevant who the Government is now

And I hate to say it, but you dodged the question: "What would you do?".

I think you're wrong: I don't think we're in for "horrific atrocities on a regular basis.". But I do, of course, agree totally with your comment
Quote
that anyone who declares themselves to be opposed to our democratic society and has a declared aim of destroying it has no right to live here
. Good luck with finding out who they are, however because I doubt they'll volunteer that information.
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Hugo on May 26, 2017, 03:16:08 pm
It must have been distressing for your elderly mother to have seen the armed Police patrolling the streets of  Chester but times have changed since her youth and this type of thing may be seen more often in the future.
These terrorists have no respect for life and target soft and vulnerable places where there is no armed presence.  It's well documented where they would like to attack in the north and personally I'd rather see the Police out and about on the streets and know that they are there if we need them.
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: TheMedz on May 26, 2017, 05:04:46 pm
It must have been distressing for your elderly mother to have seen the armed Police patrolling the streets of  Chester but times have changed since her youth and this type of thing may be seen more often in the future.
These terrorists have no respect for life and target soft and vulnerable places where there is no armed presence.  It's well documented where they would like to attack in the north and personally I'd rather see the Police out and about on the streets and know that they are there if we need them.

We had a weeks holiday in Nice, France earlier this year and  following the terrorist  incident with a huge lorry on on Bastille day, the armed security presence throughout the ciity and particularly at Railway stations, coach stations and airport was very evident. After not knowing quite what to make of it on our first seeing the armed guards on the promenade you immediately got a sense of security and safety. Walking through the train station the guards just paraded through right next to you looking for anything suspicious but also offering a warning to potential trouble makers not to try it.

To take it to the other extreme even the ticket collector was armed on the airport train into downtown Denver Colorado late last year. Mind you this from a country where we saw people shopping in Walmart with Stetson and spurs on and a belt containing full gun holster and hunting knife. Dangerous places these American Walmarts🙃
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Fester on May 26, 2017, 05:11:12 pm
'For every action, there is an equal, and opposite...... CRITICISM!'

Terrible, appalling atrocities are being perpetrated, and many more being planned by vermin that live amongst us.
If the government does nothing or something, they get criticised.
I think we are are focusing on the WRONG targets.

Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 07:36:19 am
'For every action, there is an equal, and opposite...... CRITICISM!'

Terrible, appalling atrocities are being perpetrated, and many more being planned by vermin that live amongst us.
If the government does nothing or something, they get criticised.
I think we are are focusing on the WRONG targets.

We should also try and keep it in perspective .      On TV last night armed Police were patrolling the beach in Skegness and that must have been a strange sight there but no one was complaining and they were all still able to enjoy the beautiful weather and in safety too.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 07:56:01 am
I watched the TV last night when Andrew Neil was interviewing Jeremy Corbyn and it didn't give me any more confidence in Jeremy Corbyn as being a competent leader of the Labour Party let alone a future PM.
One thing I did learn from it though was about Diane Abbott, I thought about her appointment as Shadow Home Secretary and attributed it to her fling with Corbyn many years ago but it came out in the interview that she supported the IRA at the height of the troubles.
Then to give her the job of Shadow Home Secretary doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Labour now has a leader, shadow Treasurer and Shadow Home Secretary that all have links to the IRA
The Labour Manifesto has a lot going for it, which is more than can be said for the three people mentioned and people will have to decide who they want to steer us through Brexit.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/05/21/diane-abbott-expressed-support-ira-height-troubles/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/05/21/diane-abbott-expressed-support-ira-height-troubles/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2017, 08:39:31 am
Not that I'm an Abbott supporter in any way but do you have other sources to confirm that, Hugo? I wouldn't trust Breitbart if they told me water was wet.  They must be one of the few rags that make the DFM almost look respectable.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 10:20:32 am
Only what I've read on the internet Ian,  I don't think that it's a secret as it seems to be well documented and as I don't read your favourite paper the DFM   I can't comment on that


https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2017, 10:48:10 am
I've managed to find out what she said. She gave an interview to the Irish Times in 1984 in which she stated "that Ireland “is our struggle — every defeat of the British state is a victory for all of us. A defeat in Northern Ireland would be a defeat indeed.” She said she did not regard herself as British.

She endorsed violence, saying: “I am not saying that women are innately peaceful and non-violent and that we don’t fight back. Of course we do and should.”

She criticised Northern Ireland as an “enclave of white supremacist ideologies.”"

Now, that was some 31 years ago and some might argue that what she said then is no longer relevant. But that's for the voters to decide.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 11:04:54 am
It doesn't matter how long ago it was, the fact is that she actually said it.      It certainly does not give her the credibility to be a Shadow Home Secretary.
Now here's another article to think about concerning Corbyn.      It's in another unsavoury rag and the comments are from a terrorist but do we want Politicians like this in government?


 https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ)
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: BMD on May 27, 2017, 11:09:28 am
"Opinion divided" across the country in response to the policy of having heavily-armed police on the streets of areas not considered to be high risk.

Many are unhappy with the heavy-handed measure, arguing that it's "counterproductive" and "shown to be ineffective" given the nature of suicide-bomb attacks. Some police forces have taken a more considered approach. Derbyshire police, for example, say their armed response unit would be patrolling more in cars than on foot. A spokeswoman said this was because the force did not want to "cause alarm".

Read more at http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/armed-police-on-the-streets-of-the-uk-but-why-you-won-t-see-them-here/story-30354599-detail/story.html (http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/armed-police-on-the-streets-of-the-uk-but-why-you-won-t-see-them-here/story-30354599-detail/story.html)

Opinion is split in otherwise "peaceful" areas with heavy armed-police presence on the streets. Some people are happy with the policy, saying that it makes them feel "safe". Others say it's an "overreaction", "just not right", and "will do nothing but scare people". Some even argue that there's a political agenda in play, which will influence the general election results (past research has indicated that people tend to vote in a more conservative direction when they are constantly reminded of threats from "dangerous outsiders").

http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/how-you-feel-having-armed-78664 (http://www.bathchronicle.co.uk/news/how-you-feel-having-armed-78664)

Even those who are critical of the armed police presence tend to be sympathetic to the difficult job faced by the police, who are under constant pressure by both politicians and tabloid media. But the issue is whether the policy is actually effective, rather than just a display for the public. Some experts, and even senior police, have argued that this type of policing is unlikely to deter or prevent suicide bombings, given the ideology that motivates them and the type of device typically used. Resources should instead be put into more intelligence, with armed units kept in readiness but out of public view. Evidence shows that this kind of lower-profile "stealth" policing may actually be more effective in reducing the threat.

Armed police have taken to the streets of North Staffordshire. But, asks John Woodhouse, does their presence spark reassurance or panic?

http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/big-issue-do-we-need-armed-police-on-the-streets-of-staffordshire/story-30354200-detail/story.html (http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/big-issue-do-we-need-armed-police-on-the-streets-of-staffordshire/story-30354200-detail/story.html)

"I just wanted to run away." Jane Moore was shopping in Leek on Wednesday when she spotted two armed police officers in Sheep Market.

"I stopped in my tracks," she says. "For an instant I thought I was seeing things. It's just not something you expect to see in Leek. I know they're there to make people feel safe, but the first thing I thought was that something must be happening. Why else would they be there? I have never seen armed police in Leek, ever.

"The way I saw it," adds the 42-year-old mum-of-two, who lives in the town, "they must have been sent there because of an incident. When they started smiling at people, it made me feel a bit better, but I'll admit I was very scared.

"I'm not sure if it's a good idea in a place like Leek. It looks so out of place. All it's going to do is make people nervous."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2017, 11:12:24 am
I suspect there's little doubt that the refugee crisis is what helped swing the Brexit referendum. I also suspect there's little doubt (if any) that some of those posing as refugees were anything but. However, I do know for sure that we need to understand what is powerful enough to make a youngish person strap themselves with high explosives and detonate in the middle of a crowd of young girls. And we need to understand what makes individuals become obsessed with weapons and shoot people at random before turning the gun on themselves.

Terrorism isn't a new phenomenon: it's been around since time began in one form or another, and it's simply that now the would-be suicider can take a lot of people with them. We need to know why, and we need to know what to look for.

Suicide is an aberration. It's not part of a normal biological imperative and would seem to be the province of those who feel disenfranchised, powerless and ignored. We know that the growth in movements like the National Front was quite a poisonous process, and it seems clear that UKIP (formed from the remains of the NF) and their press conferences seem eerily reminiscent of the early Nazi party meetings.

The UK has always prided itself on being a tolerant society but those who move here must be encouraged to integrate fully with our society. Worryingly, however, there are those with agendas who would rather that didn't happen and it would be a great shame if they were to win the day.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on May 27, 2017, 11:13:42 am
It doesn't matter how long ago it was, the fact is that she actually said it.      It certainly does not give her the credibility to be a Shadow Home Secretary.
Now here's another article to think about concerning Corbyn.      It's in another unsavoury rag and the comments are from a terrorist but do we want Politicians like this in government?
 https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2laeL3I_UAhVpCMAKHSt1AnEQFghoMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2Fukpolitics%2Fcomments%2F6d5cne%2Fdiane_abbott_backed_victory_for_the_ira_see_the%2F&usg=AFQjCNH6xQnhOaQ1X0ZgsRnbMj8MBYB0jQ)
H,I think this is the same link as before ?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 27, 2017, 11:14:23 am
It doesn't matter how long ago it was, the fact is that she actually said it.   

Okay, but have you never said things or done things 31 years ago that you wish you hadn't? Don't get me wrong; there's no way she should ever be in government, but I'm only suggesting that none of us is perfect.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 12:27:32 pm
We've all done and said things years ago that we regret but hopefully not as stupid and insensitive as Diane Abbott has done.    To make matters worse there are now three of them of the same ilk leading the Labour Party, where to I don't know,  but we'll soon find out.
Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: BMD on May 27, 2017, 01:49:50 pm
I was surprised by some replies to my post on armed police in Chester, in the 'Stop Press' section. (Those replies, including a few of mine, have been moved to this section).

To restore some continuity:- my last post (now in this section, above) was responding to Hugo's assertion that "no one was complaining" about armed police patrolling a beach in Skegness. And to previous posts suggesting an almost universal appreciation of this armed police presence throughout the country, at least among all *right-thinking* people (with the added implication that I was "out of my mind" to dissent, and that people such as my mum were out of touch with how the threat had changed, and out of touch with the supposed general feeling of "reassurance" instilled by having police walking around with assault rifles).

All complete nonsense, of course - as my previous post shows (by giving examples of how opinion is very much divided on this issue, often among political lines, even among police forces, and with good reason). Btw: any assertion of what "no one" thinks should probably be backed up by a poll or something. I really don't believe that "no one" in Skegness (for example) has any objections or concerns about armed police patrolling their beach.

As to the earlier point (also from Hugo, responding to my mum's distress on seeing armed police) that "times have changed since her youth" -

Yes, times have changed. The IRA terrorists who once targeted Manchester and Warrington (my mum's home town) didn't believe they'd earn extra brownie points in the afterlife by being shot by police of the "Western Imperialist Satan". I hope you understand why that isn't really much of a deterrent, and that you thus see the unintended irony of your rather patronising comment. Thanks.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 03:24:13 pm
I'm sorry about your mother's reaction to seeing armed Police on the streets and that you think that my comments were patronising as they were never meant to be taken in such a way.       It's awful to see anyone upset by the actions these terrorists have caused either directly or indirectly.
Let's not take this out of context though and think about those at the Manchester Arena on that fatal night.  I read about Cllr Ronnie Hughes' daughter and her very lucky escape.
Hindsight is great, but if only there was an armed Police presence about then it might have been a different story as these terrorists only seem to attack soft targets as I experienced in London in 2005

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjlo6q4o5DUAhWEJcAKHUjPA8UQFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhyljournal.co.uk%2Fnews%2F176330%2Fconwy-councillor-speaks-of-family-s-traumatic-experience-of-the-manchester-terror-attack.aspx&usg=AFQjCNGfiT4qGPEr-HtvXiD3QHj-fWO_ow (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjlo6q4o5DUAhWEJcAKHUjPA8UQFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rhyljournal.co.uk%2Fnews%2F176330%2Fconwy-councillor-speaks-of-family-s-traumatic-experience-of-the-manchester-terror-attack.aspx&usg=AFQjCNGfiT4qGPEr-HtvXiD3QHj-fWO_ow)

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BMD on May 27, 2017, 03:49:57 pm
Thanks Hugo. I'm not bothered about the slightly patronising remark - but it illustrates a logical point that you seem to be missing (namely that armed police are no deterrent to suicide bombers). Nobody is taking anything "out of context". We all know why this policy is in place. Incidentally, I think your notion that "terrorists only seem to attack soft targets" is one of those oft-repeated clichés that isn't actually supported by empirical evidence (in the case of suicide bombers). Probably we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 27, 2017, 05:00:27 pm
BMD, yes we'll just have to agree to disagree and leave it like that.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 27, 2017, 09:20:12 pm
I'm getting increasingly irritated by the mealy mouthed responses to our government being FORCED to deploy armed police and soldiers more visibly.

I'm not going to mince my words, because the seriousness of what we face demands it.
You see, BMD your Mum has indeed lost touch with the differing threats of today versus her youth. So had mine!!
But unlike yours, my Mum lived through the Bradford riots, in her own neighbourhood just a few short years ago.  Coincidentally these were also Muslim (predominantly Pakistani) youths hell bent on causing destruction and injury.
I watched helplessly from 120 miles away as Sky News reporters and police were retreating from petrol bombs, arcing through the air outside the very housing complex my Mum lives in.
I phoned her, panic stricken.
She was watching it out of her upstairs window..... whilst getting her coat on, so she could go out and remonstrate with them!

I said mum, if you do that, one way or another you're going to be famous tonight.
Luckily I talked her out of it.  Luckily armed (and unarmed) officers from many forces collaborated to subdue the rioters over the next 2 nights.

My brother in law was one of those officers, he had his collar bone broken from a concrete slab dropped on him from a bridge.... and police horse was famously retired due to having taken too many stab wounds.

These days, if my Mum sees or hears about armed officers I would think she might be less inclined to do the job for them. 
But on a serious note, BMD, if your Mum is alarmed by armed officers, just whisper in her lug 'ole... 'they're here for us Mum, they on our side'

She might find herself slightly more alarmed by the sight of an armed terrorist in her proximity, as were the people slaughtered in the Charlie Ebdo attack or in the Bataclan theatre, or the Tunisian hotel, ..... the list could go on....






Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BMD on May 28, 2017, 02:18:42 am
Thanks. The only reason I mentioned my mum was to illustrate that not everyone who reacted badly to the armed police fits a stereotype such as "whiny police-hating leftie". That's all. It's not a competition between our relatives.

You haven't addressed - let alone refuted - a single point that I've made. For example, you talk of "our government being FORCED to deploy armed police and soldiers more visibly". How does that address the points I actually made, namely:

Many (including some senior police) say that lower-profile, less-visible use of armed police is more effective in relatively low-risk areas. I gave the example of Derbyshire police force, which has chosen to confine armed units mostly to vehicles, in order to minimise alarm to the public. It's not an either/or choice between "do nothing" and "deploy highly-visible armed police everywhere, even in low-risk areas". Nobody (not government, not police) is being "forced" by terrible circumstances into choosing the latter option in that false dichotomy.

You say that my mum "might find herself slightly more alarmed by the sight of an armed terrorist in her proximity".

No sh*t. But how is that remotely relevant to the points I was making - unless you think I'm arguing that it'd be preferable to have terrorists running around than armed police? Do you misunderstand my point that much?

This is one of the reasons why I normally avoid debates like this. And why I won't be responding further. But thanks for taking the time to reply.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2017, 08:49:14 am
From the first time we took our two on holiday through Manchester Airport to the other week in London at St Pancras Station we've always seen heavily armed police and they've always made me (and my other half) feel wary. There are quite a few reasons behind that and, like F's mum, I once found myself in the middle of a riot.

Riots are the most unpleasant and worrying places to find yourself. When the normal rules of law and order break down for that brief time you're at the mercy of anyone. So understanding what causes them is essential. The 2001 Bradford riots to which F refers are a good example.

Riots normally occur during warm to hot weather. But looking at the 2001 riots, far from them being
Quote
Muslim (predominantly Pakistani) youths hell bent on causing destruction and injury.
all the facts point to the riot being initiated "on the nights of 8 and 9 July 2001 when groups of between thirty and a hundred white youths attacked police and Asian-owned businesses, in the Ravenscliffe and Holmewood areas" (Bagguley, P. and Hussain, Y. (2008) Riotous Citizens: ethnic conflict in multicultural Britain, Aldershot, Ashgate, page 58.)

What's also worth remembering is that in the months preceding the riot the National Front had been attempting to organise marches through the city and, at that time, the National Front was attracting a lot of working-class supporters from those who saw their areas changing significantly.

It's hard to know for certain what the flashpoint was, but it is known that a rumour spread that the NF were gathering at a pub which itself led to a confrontation outside the pub in which an Asian man was stabbed. Interestingly, the most severe sentence handed down was to an Asian - a 48 year-old businessman.

The 1981 Toxteth riots centred on the Black community and appeared to be at least partly a response to the heavy-handed policing tactics of the time. And, once again, it was hot weather.

It's very easy to come up with quick fixes for rioters and severe penalties but there's a very important truism regarding society: society is policed by consent. If those in a society choose to ignore the rules then action will be taken against them to protect the majority of that society. But if the majority of society decides they won't obey the rules the no amount of policing will make a difference and thus Somalia is born.

That's why we need to understand the root causes of riots. Hot weather is certainly one, a sense of grievance is another, powerlessness is a third. There are bound to be more and, in a complex society such as the UK's, there will always be those with grievances - justified or not. Sadly, there are also those with racist agendas, such as the National Front, who will seek to exploit perceived issues or drive wedges between groups based on their skin colour or their religion. And that shows no signs of abating.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2017, 11:03:17 am
, I think your notion that "terrorists only seem to attack soft targets" is one of those oft-repeated clichés that isn't actually supported by empirical evidence (in the case of suicide bombers). Probably we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Those "oft repeated cliches not supported by empirical evidence"  where on earth to you get such information from?         Prior to the bombing in Manchester the Police forces had instructed their officers that they must go out in pairs.   Furthermore they were also ordered to change out of their uniforms and into civilian clothes prior to leaving the Police Station.      The reasons for that are obvious and the case of Lee Rigby is a prime example.
Fester's posting of his mother's situation really touched me and made me realise how fortunate I am to be living where I do and relatively free of those atrocities that we have seen all over Europe and the UK in recent times.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BMD on May 28, 2017, 12:29:25 pm
I think your notion that "terrorists only seem to attack soft targets" is one of those oft-repeated clichés that isn't actually supported by empirical evidence (in the case of suicide bombers).

Those "oft repeated cliches not supported by empirical evidence"  where on earth to you get such information from?

Thanks Hugo. All I meant was something very obvious and undeniable, namely that there are many shocking cases of terrorists attacking *non*-soft targets - both in the UK and abroad. Suicide bombings are favoured by extremist groups precisely because they can reach non-soft targets (the ultimate example would probably be the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon - the world's least "soft" target).

Every time terrorists attack a non-soft target, the blanket generalisation (and oft-repeated cliché) that "terrorists only seem to attack soft targets" is refuted.

I won't be responding to any more points in this thread, sorry.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2017, 01:20:49 pm
I'm glad you won't be responding BMD, not because you're points aren't valid, they are..but because we'll just waste time going round in circles.
You see, I don't need to respond or refute all the individual points you make.... because I'm making different points. 
One of my points is regarding the fact that most terrorist attacks are not suicide bombers.  The 3 I quoted were mass shootings.
I can only assert that a very large number of those innocent victims would have been alive today if armed police were on hand to stop the attacks.
In fact, the attacks probably wouldn't have commenced at all, why take the risk? 

Please understand that I'd rather not live in a world where armed security is required to keep me safe.
But, those they are protecting me from would much rather you and I didn't live at all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2017, 02:01:43 pm
Ian, your synopsis of the Bradford riots is very selective, very narrow.
The flashpoint may well have originated at that pub, I wouldn't know, but the areas mentioned in that report had little or no riotous activity over the nights in question.
I do think that white youths in those areas certainly took the opportunity to create mischief and commit many crimes as the police resources were urgently deployed elsewhere.

I think the analysis that followed the riots was highly political in terms of 'misplaced correctness' so as not to offend or incite further trouble.
I'm sure that there are reams and reams of other sources of information and accounts regarding those horrific nights. But, many will vary depending on their authors motives.

You see the main areas of destruction were Manningham, Whetley Hill, Girlington and Lidget Green.
Areas I knew well, areas I grew up in. Areas my parents still live in, albeit separately.
The Thornton Road and Manchester Road areas (towards the City centre) were also deeply embroiled and were no go areas for several nights.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 28, 2017, 02:03:06 pm
Unfortunately, the world changed after the 9/11 attack and we have to be prepared to deal with these matters accordingly.    BMD has expressed an opinion and that is all it is, it's neither right or wrong just his opinion based on the unfortunate incident with his mother.
We are just going round and round in circles, but everyone is entitled to an opinion but we must remember that it is not the Police who are the enemy, they are just protecting us from those extremists who wish to do us harm
I'm not going to post anymore on this matter but instead I'm going to watch the 10K  race in Manchester on TV and hope that all those people who are watching it enjoy it and that we never ever see a repeat of the Boston Marathon in future.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2017, 02:16:42 pm
Ian, your synopsis of the Bradford riots is very selective, very narrow.
The flashpoint may well have originated at that pub, I wouldn't know, but the areas mentioned in that report had little or no riotous activity over the nights in question.

I wasn't really attempting to analyse something about which I know comparatively little, F. What I was doing, I think, was twofold: I was concerned to show that apparently simple statements which may seem accurate

"Muslim (predominantly Pakistani) youths hell bent on causing destruction and injury."

are often too simplistic to tell the whole story, since it's well documented that the original fracas was started by white youths.  From personal experience I know just how incredibly difficult it is to determine who started what. And in the end it's probably not that important.  What does matter is that sufficient individuals felt sufficiently motivated to tear apart a community.

The other thing I was trying to do was establish that no matter how emotionally involved the onlookers become the solution to these events has never - historically - been violent repression. We may think the answer is brute force but I can't remember a single instance where that has worked against a populace.

Finally, I know you like to think that P90-toting police make us all feel safer but think about where mass shootings have occurred. The weapons used by the police are pretty indiscriminate in terms of killing power (accurate, I understand, up to 20 yards...) so bystanders stand as much chance of being hit as does the perpetrator. And most of the perpetrators are convinced being killed during their savage acts ensures a great life after death. So not a lot of incentive to stay low, then.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2017, 03:28:13 pm
On the election debate, which I've kept out of, as I won't be voting...

Has anyone noticed that the polls have dramatically changed over the last 3 weeks?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39856354 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39856354)

Given the Brexit and Trump results which came as a shock to the pollsters,  I'm now expecting to see either a Labour win, or a much reduced Tory majority. 
Very, very uncomfortable and uncertain times ahead.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 28, 2017, 04:46:27 pm
Very worrying indeed. And the polls got it utterly wrong last time.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: rhuddlan on May 28, 2017, 05:18:27 pm
Might I make a suggestion? Rather than not bothering with going to vote, that people register for a postal vote .Then when they receive the paperwork if they cannot find someone to vote for, they can register their dissatisfaction by making a protest vote.
I personally feel that is a better option than simply not bothering to "go to vote". It just means putting an envelope through a nearby post box. You have to complete the paper " properly" see the link below..
The reason why I suggest this is because my parents who always voted reminded me of the efforts our predecessors had in getting the vote in the first place. I too think this remains true today.
You can still go to the polling booth and protest vote there if you prefer .
Protest voting the voting paper is different from spoiling the paper
It is with some hesitation that I make this comment as it seems people tend to take things a bit too personally here.
.For more information please see the attached link
http://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html (http://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 28, 2017, 08:04:26 pm
I foresee..... election chaos.... a very shaky coalition...... then a 2nd Brexit referendum.... which will come back with a narrow 'remain' majority.

That will just make things worse.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 28, 2017, 08:16:56 pm
I foresee..... election chaos.... a very shaky coalition...... then a 2nd Brexit referendum.... which will come back with a narrow 'remain' majority.

That will just make things worse.

You and your crystal balls......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 29, 2017, 12:14:18 pm
Bosun, They're all useless, the lot of them, terrified of upsetting the City and the landowners. Who has the money has the power. They own the politicians. Was always thus and will always be thus. The middle classes get squeezed, the poor are screwed and the really rich avoid paying tax by paying top accountants to keep finding loopholes. It's a disgusting system. The best I can do is abstain from taking part. they're all liars prepared to say anything to win an election then deliver on nothing when in power.
Nothing really ever changes for the better. That is the reality.
Apart from that .... what lovely weather we've had lately.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 29, 2017, 05:24:16 pm
Fester, no-one can argue against that, but I would add that 99% of politicians are only in the game for self power and glory (I've met enough of the idiots to know) - except, and I truly believe this, except Corbyn. He is simply delusional. Kindly, well meaning - but delusional. Proven not least by the fact that he has IdiotAbott on his front bench. I've changed my hairstyle many times in 35 years but I've always utterly condemned terrorism and the perpetrators of atrocities no matter what hairstyle I had, even as a callow youth.

But, as you suggested earlier, the lunatics may well find themselves in charge of the asylum.....

Brexit, Trump and Labour? They say bad luck comes in threes, but what has the world done to deserve that toxic combination?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 29, 2017, 07:02:08 pm
If Labour did manage to cobble together a win, absolute turmoil would ensue.

But a Tory win is only bad for you if you are young, or if you are old.... or if you are middle class, or out of work...... or in work, or disabled.... or if you are a fox! 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 30, 2017, 09:46:29 am
I watched the May - Corbyn v Paxman 'debate' last night; Corbyn answered the audiences questions well and came across as a friendly amiable chap, most sincere and a remarkably good speaker, I was impressed - until Paxman began his bullying routine and Corbyn began to crumble under pressure when questioned on defence and security. May seemed more self assured and authoritative, if defensive about policies and her record. She stood up well to Paxman and to me, seemed the more 'statesman' like of the two.

I don't think there was much in it, Corbyn the more likable, May much more the statesman. The looser was Paxman, a sad pastiche of his former self, whose bullying manner did little to elicit more from either about their vision and policies for the future of the country, but tried desperately to pressurise them, seemingly as if he wanted them to give under pressure. It was May who weathered this the better because Paxman kept repeating the same question, to which May had a practiced answer.

Having always admired the man, I was most disappointed in Paxman, he should stick to travelogues in future. Last night may well have finished his career in current event broadcasting.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 30, 2017, 11:43:48 am
Paxman delivered a lecture at the Hay festival last week in which he applauded Corbyn. He seems quite pro-JC and interestingly somewhat anti-media.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 30, 2017, 12:03:32 pm
Paxman delivered a lecture at the Hay festival last week in which he applauded Corbyn. He seems quite pro-JC and interestingly somewhat anti-media.

That's interesting. Last night Paxman seemed to be 'grandstanding', desperately wanting to draw blood or provoke them both which I thought added nothing to the debate, but JC did seem rattled by the onslaught.

I have no idea who advised May on her outfit, an ugly lurid orange two-piece, I can only presume it was Stevie Wonder.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 30, 2017, 05:20:27 pm
I'm afraid that old Jeremy didn't do himself any favours in his interview this afternoon, probably more embarrassing than any of Diane Abbott's interviews.        PM material?       &shake&



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 30, 2017, 07:00:13 pm
But on the other hand, that pip squeak Alun Cairns and the overbearing Andrew RT Davies are both avoiding the TV debate tonight..... blaming each other for that...
The most senior and 'sensible' political figure the Tories can put forward is Darren Millar.
Look back at the Oscar revelations to learn more about his credentials.

It's embarrassing and pathetic.
None of these people deserve to be in ANY positions of power.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on May 31, 2017, 09:52:04 am
The value of the pound dropped after a projection suggested the Conservatives could fail to win an outright majority in the election on 8 June.
Previous opinion polls suggested Prime Minister Theresa May's party would increase its majority, which is currently 17 seats.
But the projection, published in the Times and based on YouGov research, suggests a possible hung parliament.

We ignore these movements at our peril.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 02, 2017, 06:12:51 pm
Why isn't there one, just one of the political parties willing to tell the truth?

The truth about ... BREXIT.

They all say we are heading for Brexit, and how it will be negotiated to minimise the DAMAGE it will bring.
Yet, we all know that Brexit is not really what Britain wants. If the referendum was re-run today, there would be a majority to REMAIN. 
This is not because LEAVE voters are stupid, but because the whole campaign was based on LIES.
Also because there is a sizeable number of people who voted leave, but instantly regretted it.

Come on one of you leaders, be honest about this!


Title: Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
Post by: DaveR on June 05, 2017, 09:16:40 am
I predict terrorist attacks from supporters of IS who have been allowed to move to the UK will eventually become a weekly occurrence.
Very sadly, it seems my prediction is already starting to come true. The enemy within is gathering strength and becoming bolder.

In place such as London and Manchester, armed response can be on the scene within minutes, but even that is too long a period of time when faced with attackers that can injure and kill many people in that time. We need to look at arming all police, as a matter of urgency.

I hate to raise such an issue, but what would happen if a similar incident to the London Bridge attack took place in a town in North Wales? Armed officers are on patrol in North Wales but it can take them 20-30 minutes to travel to an incident. Who locally would have the ability to stop such terrorists?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on June 06, 2017, 08:15:32 pm
Walking past Janet f Saunders office in madoc street you would think Bebb is not standing ,no mention of him posters pictures it's a sad state of affairs that they don't get on .
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 06, 2017, 11:24:37 pm
I can tell where your vote is going on Thursday Norman       ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 07, 2017, 12:31:39 pm
So, at the eleventh hour, Dianne Abbott is taking an 'indefinite break' from her role as Shadow Home Secretary... according to Corbyn, who has replaced her with Lyn Brown, who resigned last year following a vote of no confidence in his leadership. She said then that Labour should seek a new leader "for the good of the party and the country". She then rejoined the front bench three months later as minister for policing....

Just to add, (from Wikipedia) in June 2011, Brown was criticised by campaigners for recruiting an unpaid intern whilst also supporting "a living wage for all". Gus Baker of Intern Aware stated Brown had replaced a paid member of staff with an unpaid intern, accusing her of double hypocrisy and noting how such conduct denied opportunities to poorer people such as those from Brown's constituency.

Until May 2009, Brown rented a central London flat using the second home allowance, despite her constituency being only a few miles from Westminster.

In July 2011, Brown was heavily criticized for shoving a blind man out of her way and repeatedly swearing at him. Nice.

Of course she's not unpleasant, hypocritical, therefore untrustworthy, self-serving type that's milking the gravy-train at all..... but she might be the next Home Secretary.

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 07, 2017, 12:42:32 pm
Obviously Diane Abbott has simply embarrassed herself.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 07, 2017, 12:47:02 pm
I saw this comment on The Independent website, it exactly sums up why I and many others will not vote for Labour.

'True old Labour stood for social justice. Preventing appalling conditions & pay for workers.
But most of these new Leftards have never done a working class job in their lives.
They now stand for a bizarre socialist ideology that's a mass of ludicrous contradictions that comprises of..

1] Regarding any kind of patriotism & wish for proper borders as racism & xenophobia
2] Playing down crime such as child grooming when committed by minorities
3] Instilling feelings of guilt in anyone wanting to put Brits 1st
4] Pandering to minorities at the expense of the majority
5] Robbing poor countries of their youth & workforce
6] Failing to get work shy people back in work
7] The corporatist capitalist's EU dream
8] Mass immigration of cheap labour
9] Middle class Marxism
10] Political correctness

They've lost the plot
Why would any normal working class person want this load of bollox ?

I spoke to a cabbie the other day He used to earn £16 an hour as an HGV lorry driver until the Poles came over living 8 to a house & drove the wages down to £ 9.50 an hour So him and his mates are now all UKIP.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/diane-abbott-labour-replaced-sacked-lyn-brown-general-election-2017-jeremy-corbyn-a7776491.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/diane-abbott-labour-replaced-sacked-lyn-brown-general-election-2017-jeremy-corbyn-a7776491.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 07, 2017, 01:25:10 pm

'True old Labour stood for social justice. Preventing appalling conditions & pay for workers.
But most of these new Leftards have never done a working class job in their lives.
They now stand for a bizarre socialist ideology that's a mass of ludicrous contradictions that comprises of..


I doubt if anyone can disagree with that statement, and whilst I actually much prefer the Labour manifesto to the Tories, I don't believe that the current Labour front bench have any hope in hell of either implementing their policies or of properly running the country. Abbott (as was) Watson and Thornbury are a clueless bunch of cretins, self serving 'Leftards' as ME calls them, and although I'm no Tory, and I don't like the party, I think they will make a better Government. Corbyn is just deluded. And, it has to be said that the Tory campaign has been utterly dire, Corbyn has done a far better job of electioneering than May. But, the Labour campaign has been like Brexit - promises them anything as long as we win.

For me, it's fractionally the lesser of two evils. But not much. I've said it before - if it had been David instead of clueless Ed, the Labour Party would still be in power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 07, 2017, 01:37:22 pm
Looks like we just about agree on something Bosun, had to happen one day !  D)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Big Alan on June 07, 2017, 06:56:17 pm
Don't know how B2R lives in that little Ingerlund you call Llandudno! Full of Tories and ukip racists, bet you voted out as well! You won't be seeing as much of me and Paula in the future I'm afraid Fester. VOTE LABOUR!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 07, 2017, 07:06:32 pm
Don't know how B2R lives in that little Ingerlund you call Llandudno! Full of Tories and ukip racists, bet you voted out as well! You won't be seeing as much of me and Paula in the future I'm afraid Fester. VOTE LABOUR!

Whys that Al? 
It's too rainy to vote for anyone tomorrow!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on June 08, 2017, 02:21:04 pm
Al does make a good point. For such a massively White, British area we do have an awful lot of kippers and racists among us. Cornwall is the same.

http://www.ilivehere.co.uk/statistics-llandudno-conwy-22888.html (http://www.ilivehere.co.uk/statistics-llandudno-conwy-22888.html)

Perhaps its  down to age and the older people being more susceptible to the scaremongering stirred up in the press or just a general fear of the unknown (In my secondary school there was about four or five non white kids in a school of nearly a thousand) something needs to change though.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 08, 2017, 02:49:34 pm
Given that this is the OFCOM regulation:

"On Thursday 8th June, broadcasters – and all media outlets – will stop reporting on any election campaigns from 12:30am. This will continue until the restriction ends at 10pm when polls close.

This will apply to TV and radio and print media. "

how on earth are the newspapers' headlines within the law?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on June 08, 2017, 03:17:14 pm
I don't understand it at all. The Sun's front page this morning was frankly ridiculous.
I think all newspapers should follow the non bias ban that the BBC has had to and only then will we get a fair election.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 08, 2017, 04:01:55 pm
I don't understand it at all. The Sun's front page this morning was frankly ridiculous.
I think all newspapers should follow the non bias ban that the BBC has had to and only then will we get a fair election.

If only life was so simple.  I've been a Daily Mirror reader for over 50 years and the articles in it are also ridiculous.      Labour can't deliver on all it's promises and the figures just don't add up or otherwise Jeremy and his ex Diane Abbott wouldn't have had such difficulty in explaining them.
The Labour manifesto is fairer and for the majority of the people but with someone like Corbyn in power there is no confidence in his leadership qualities and he's even likely to vote against any Labour proposal put forward.
As for the Cons, we know what is coming, cuts and more cuts
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 09, 2017, 08:31:38 am
Well, I'm not unhappy with that. It's called democracy. Except Hunt kept his seat, that's a pity.

I wonder how that nice Mr Dacre is this morning......
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 09, 2017, 08:39:06 am
I don't understand it at all.
The rest of us have been saying that for years....  :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 09, 2017, 09:03:37 am
Quite a high turnout overall.  Local stations seemed seemed busier than they have in the past. Good swap, though, getting Vince Cable back for Nick Clegg. Given the length of time we've had Tory dominance, now, it's a concern that JC didn't do better. But the maths behind general elections is bizarre.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 09, 2017, 09:55:50 am
I feared a hung parliament, and I voiced that on here some days ago.

Now I fear something else, that the UK just became ungovernable.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 09, 2017, 10:57:32 am
I feared a hung parliament, and I voiced that on here some days ago.

Now I fear something else, that the UK just became ungovernable.
Cheer up, man!  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Neil on June 09, 2017, 04:53:38 pm
Teresa May promises certainty, yes we are all certain that she's a pillock!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on June 09, 2017, 05:32:10 pm
She seems to be wanting to hang on for dear life. Not too long ago every man and his dog was chastising JC for hanging onto his job when he hadn't made any mistakes and had in fact improved the party. She has devastated her own party and yet still she won't resign.  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Neil on June 09, 2017, 06:41:58 pm
I doubt if Teresa May has ever been in a losing position in her entire life, it will take her some time to get to grips with the situation. Unlike a lot of us who get that feeling nearly every week when our team lose!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 09, 2017, 06:51:06 pm
She seems to be wanting to hang on for dear life. Not too long ago every man and his dog was chastising JC for hanging onto his job when he hadn't made any mistakes and had in fact improved the party. She has devastated her own party and yet still she won't resign.  &shake&

I doubt she actually wants to stay; most leaders in her situation are out the door pretty sharply. I suspect there's a lot of pressure on her from within the party to make her stay for the moment.  Possibly they want her to suffer - wouldn't surprise me - or possibly they want her to take the flack for a while until things calm down, at which point they'll get rid of her. Tories move in strange ways and very secretively.  A lot of plotting and jostling for position.   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 09, 2017, 07:16:04 pm
I do think May lost her own election. She was either badly advised or made poor choices. But it started in Halifax when she told voters the triple lock would go and their houses would be set against all their social care costs. Interestingly, what she proposed was better than what now exists, but the only words the voters heard were 'house' and 'lose'. It wasn't explained well enough.

But there is one giant question which all the pro-Corbynites haven't answered: if May was every bit as bad as many are now saying she was, how is it that Labour didn't wipe the floor with the Tories?

In case anyone needs reminding, Tony Blair in the 1997 election gained 416 seats for Labour. To show it wasn't simply a fluke, in the next election in 2001 he gained 413 seats for Labour. Incredibly, he then went on to win a third term. And I'd also remind the pro-JC followers that it was the Labour left that turned on the man who introduced the National Minimum Wage Act, Human Rights Act, and Freedom of Information Act in the first term alone. He wasn't perfect, but those applauding how well JC has done would do well to look at how well it can be done.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Quiggs on June 09, 2017, 09:38:44 pm
May wanted to bo like Margaret Thatcher, I suspect it will not be long when she will be getting into her ministerial Jaguar in tears as she leaves No. 10.   WWW
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 10, 2017, 12:45:36 pm
The Tory campaign was utterly woeful, it was full of negativity and school mistress-like preaching about 'leadership'
I think she was utterly complacent and simply expected a very comfortable win.

Mr Corbyn on the other hand was energised, and in an ironic way he did exactly what Donald Trump did.
He promised everybody, 'everything'.  Cheap houses, better wages, fantastic health care and services.  Without a penny on anyone's tax.
Nonsense of course, but given the worries in the UK these days, and the young seemingly on a treadmill... who wouldn't vote for that?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SDQ on June 10, 2017, 01:27:31 pm
Two of her aides have just quit, surely she should do the honourable thing too.
Then we can get Boris as PM and the madness would be complete!
Anything the US can do, we can do better.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 10, 2017, 01:38:40 pm
That about sums it up Fester,  in addition they had the terror attack in London and it reminded everyone that she was Home Secretary at the time when Police numbers were being reduced and she was also booed when she attended a Police Federation meeting.
Then she promised to end the triple lock on pensions, means test the heating allowance and introduce the so called "dementia Tax"      Not a good start to her campaign

Labour on the other hand promised everything even though they wouldn't be able to deliver  on their promises but some fell for it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 10, 2017, 01:53:32 pm
The Tory campaign was utterly woeful, it was full of negativity and school mistress-like preaching about 'leadership'
I think she was utterly complacent and simply expected a very comfortable win.

Mr Corbyn on the other hand was energised, and in an ironic way he did exactly what Donald Trump did.
He promised everybody, 'everything'.  Cheap houses, better wages, fantastic health care and services.  Without a penny on anyone's tax.
Nonsense of course, but given the worries in the UK these days, and the young seemingly on a treadmill... who wouldn't vote for that?

I wholeheartedly agree, and Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill have now fallen on their swords and resigned - but only after pressure...

I do wonder if the MP's who resigned from Corbyn's Show Cabinet and railed against him, including some of the grandee's of the party - Kinnock, Johnson and becket etc will now apologise to him? This election has shown just how out of touch both they and the Tory are with the British public.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 10, 2017, 02:45:46 pm
JC didn't do that well, though; the real winner - in a previously staunchly Labour Scotland - was a Tory, who swiped 12 seats from the SNP.  In contrast, JC managed around half a dozen but actually lost votes in five Scottish constituencies. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 10, 2017, 03:37:14 pm
JC didn't do that well, though; the real winner - in a previously staunchly Labour Scotland - was a Tory, who swiped 12 seats from the SNP.  In contrast, JC managed around half a dozen but actually lost votes in five Scottish constituencies.

My point is that Corbyn has hounded and derided by his own party, and still managed to make a very decent job of the election - in everyone's opinion a better election than the Tories - albeit that he didn't win. But what would have been he result if the Labour Party had pulled together to back him?

Scotland, home of the winging Jocks is a different matter, they are just fed up with Jimmy Kranky, her wholly dysfunctional party, and her dreary bleating about holding referendums until she gets the result she wants.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 10, 2017, 05:44:31 pm
I take my hat off to Corbyn, I'm no Labour supporter but credit where it's due...
They were laughing at him in parliament not so long ago, 'for God's sake man, Go' remember that?

The vast majority of his own MPs actively and vigorously wanted him gone.

Now, he is in the ascendancy, an extremely popular figure with the public.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on June 10, 2017, 09:33:19 pm
I might not agree with Corbyns actions in the past especially siding with IRA etc.
But , throughout it all he has been consistant in what he believed in and everyone knew were he stood.

In the end of the day perhaps a lot of people saw that. and perhaps admired it.
 Most other MPs go with the flow and are untrustworthy.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 11, 2017, 09:26:50 am
I take my hat off to Corbyn, I'm no Labour supporter but credit where it's due...
They were laughing at him in parliament not so long ago, 'for God's sake man, Go' remember that?

The vast majority of his own MPs actively and vigorously wanted him gone.

Now, he is in the ascendancy, an extremely popular figure with the public.
That's because he promises everything to everyone - not hard to be popular if you do that!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 11, 2017, 07:04:20 pm
This sums it up...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on June 12, 2017, 09:32:56 am
One of the funniest things I heard in the Election was Corbyn saying that '68 was too late to retire'...despite him being 68 himself.  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 13, 2017, 10:56:23 am
Another thing that I found out today in the Labour Manifesto was the "Garden Tax"     Perhaps comrade Corbyn  may take it out of the manifesto if he wants to win the next General Election:-

How the Labour manifesto would affect homeowners with gardens

The Labour manifesto includes a so-called ‘garden tax’ on the value of land to replace council tax. This tax would affect homeowners with gardens hardest.

The Labour manifesto says: “We will initiate a review into reforming council tax and business rates and consider new options such as a land value tax, to ensure local government has sustainable funding for the long term
Title: Brexit
Post by: Dave on June 13, 2017, 12:11:32 pm
I'm curious to know what would happen if we had another vote!
I'm sure the main parties bar the Lib Dems are too scared of loosing votes by asking the question.

During the election it seemed to me pretty obvious that there would be a change of allegiance from one political party to another depending on their stance on a hard or soft Brexit but in truth I think that scrapping the idea altogether might be an attractive proposition for many now we are starting to feel the potential effects of life outside of Europe with more bad news to come.

Vote runs for three weeks in the hope we get a decent poll!

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Dave on June 15, 2017, 11:26:40 am
Come on everyone, just a bit of added interest and totally anonymous!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SteveH on June 16, 2017, 01:43:19 pm
Not sure if looking back is the way forward, I think the "hard or soft" brexit is the big question, and personally I am worried that we panic, and go "soft".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: born2run on June 16, 2017, 01:54:44 pm
Why not? - All the evidence is clear that it won't work! If you bought a toaster and at the end of the wire there was a potato instead of a plug would you say 'Oh hang on I'm not sure looking back is the way to go forward, let's try and develop some potato powered electricity emitting source to try and make the best of it'?

or would you say 'sod this for a game of Boris I'm taking it back to the shop!'?

Let's take Brexit back to the shop - they were clearly selling us fake toasters and most of us fell for it, we can either be stubborn and keep insisting in the face of all the facts that we were right, or we can admit we were sold a dud and do something about it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: rhuddlan on June 16, 2017, 03:43:26 pm
The mention of toasters reminded me that someone I know voted for Brexit because of the threat of low wattage toasters being" forced on us". Staggering to think that having the added burden of depressing the toaster another time would be that great a hardship ....on the greater scheme of things.That kind of stupidity has got us into this mess.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2017, 04:05:26 pm
A relative of  mine voted for Brexit 'to teach Cameron a lesson'.  Clearly, a lot of thought went into it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: OrmeMac on June 16, 2017, 04:50:30 pm
The mention of toasters reminded me that someone I know voted for Brexit because of the threat of low wattage toasters being" forced on us". Staggering to think that having the added burden of depressing the toaster another time would be that great a hardship ....on the greater scheme of things.That kind of stupidity has got us into this mess.

All the talk of toasters reminded me of this https://youtu.be/QbNKNqOwgMo (https://youtu.be/QbNKNqOwgMo)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 16, 2017, 05:38:37 pm
Where can I buy a 13 amp potato for my toaster ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fester on June 16, 2017, 10:08:55 pm
Ian, on a similar note, several of my customers were thoroughly excited with their winning Brexit choice..... because they didn't like all the Asian people in their area.
Hmmm.

About 6 months before the referendum, I posted an article on this forum stating that on the day we vote we STILL won't have the facts to make a sensible choice.   I'm not often right about anything, but where politicians are involved it was hardly a difficult prediction.

The campaign was based on LIES, as BTR says, we shouldn't accept it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian on June 17, 2017, 08:43:29 am
I agree. Interesting, though; Dave's mini-poll at the top shows no one changing sides.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Merddin Emrys on June 17, 2017, 10:36:23 am
The mini poll needs an option of... no idea how to vote because neither side convinces me. The General election also needed that option.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Hugo on June 17, 2017, 11:34:51 am
Neither side offers any specific information on any important issues.    Immigration is just one of those issues but both sides do agree that immigration benefits our economy, but we should still be able to select who we allow to come here.
Free movement of people is one thing but I wouldn't have thought that economic benefit migrants was part of the original intention of the EU
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Dave on June 22, 2017, 01:57:34 pm
Still not a huge number of votes but maybe a picture is emerging. If you haven't already please contribute, there is no right or wrong, just difference in opinion.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: hiraeth on June 24, 2017, 08:25:07 am
I cast a postal vote to leave. I began to have grave doubts about my choice and had changed my mind to remain before polling day. Unfortunately, my leave vote stood.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fester on June 24, 2017, 01:52:02 pm
I think the point is pretty much proved here.
The slim majority to LEAVE, if re-run, would today be a slim majority to REMAIN.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Hugo on June 24, 2017, 10:51:33 pm
It's the first past the post system, so I suppose the same could be said for the General Election too.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Dave on June 25, 2017, 12:56:14 pm
The number of votes cast in the poll are too small to draw any real conclusion as to the outcome of another national referendum vote but I must admit the picture that has emerged is the one I expected.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 26, 2017, 06:16:18 pm
I am simply appalled and disgusted in equal measures at the Tory/DUP alliance. To court, buy and bed a bigoted bunch of politicians barely removed from the bomb and bullet whose beliefs are stone age in order to remain in power make it clear that May is desperate for power at any price.

It's going to end in tears and my doubts about May's competence and her lack of any sense of decency are confirmed.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on June 27, 2017, 09:53:14 am
Not to mention the billion quid she's found down the back of the sofa  $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on June 28, 2017, 09:21:06 am
I'm supporting this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40423052 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40423052)

If she can find a billion quid to buy off a bunch of Neanderthal bigots, she can find the money. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2017, 10:12:09 am
I'm supporting this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40423052 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40423052)

If she can find a billion quid to buy off a bunch of Neanderthal bigots, she can find the money.

I think that's a tad unkind to Neanderthals.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on July 06, 2017, 10:12:54 am
An interesting 'post-Brexit' article, I think that people are beginning to realise.... (or coming to their senses...)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/brexit-error-vote-leave-dominic-cummings (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/05/brexit-error-vote-leave-dominic-cummings)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 06, 2017, 02:49:49 pm
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx)

When more stuff like this happens they will
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 06, 2017, 03:52:44 pm
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx)

When more stuff like this happens they will

Just remember, don't get ill, and don't get old.  Otherwise you've no chance.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 06, 2017, 04:04:52 pm
Quote
Janet Finch-Saunders said: “It is vital that wards are adequately staffed, and Llandudno Hospital is an integral part of service provision here in Aberconwy. I would urge the Management of the Health Board to address this matter as a priority.

Er...yes;  no one's applying for the jobs.  How are they supposed to address it? Perhaps she should add her voice to those in the Tory government regarding the cap on public service jobs. It is her party, after all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 06, 2017, 04:41:31 pm
Brexit  $good$

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/01/25/number-eu-nurses-coming-uk-falls-90-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/01/25/number-eu-nurses-coming-uk-falls-90-per-cent-since-brexit-vote/)

Just 101 nurses and midwives from other European nations joined the register to work here last month - a drop from 1,304 in July, the month immediately after the referendum, official figures show.

Dave R - still chirping the same old tune - surely people are starting to realise by now.....surely  ££$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 07, 2017, 11:16:37 am
Surely we should be asking why we cannot staff the NHS without resorting to importing nurses and doctors from around the world? This article here provides some answers:

"More nurses are needed who are from the UK, according to one leading NHS doctor. Around 7,500 nurses from countries such as Spain, Romania and Italy registered to work in the UK last year. But many of you have contacted Newsbeat to tell us you've always wanted to be a nurse but haven't been able to get on training courses. One argument is that not enough people from the UK have the right qualifications. Dani Ella Wynn, 18, from Wigan, applied to six universities to study nursing and midwifery and was rejected from every one. "I'm only 18," she said. "I've always wanted to be a nurse and tried to get as much experience as I could. I've taken four A-levels but still no place."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33692001/nursing-why-the-uk-has-so-many-foreign-nurses (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33692001/nursing-why-the-uk-has-so-many-foreign-nurses)


As regards Llandudno Hospital in particular, the NHS in Wales is run by the Labour Government in Cardiff. Why Ian imagines it is anything to do with the UK Government, I don't know?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 07, 2017, 12:40:49 pm
Surely we should be asking why we cannot staff the NHS without resorting to importing nurses and doctors from around the world?
Interesting article for and against degree only nursing,

All new nurses to have degrees from 2013.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn)

"The academic must be secondary to the practical. Only then will patients get the nurses they want and trust – the right ones with the right attitude. It must never become more important to write about care than to give it. If our nurses do not have the basics of training, the costs of care will soar because of infection rates and overblown bureaucracy."






 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2017, 03:21:51 pm
Surely we should be asking why we cannot staff the NHS without resorting to importing nurses and doctors from around the world? This article here provides some answers:

"More nurses are needed who are from the UK, according to one leading NHS doctor. Around 7,500 nurses from countries such as Spain, Romania and Italy registered to work in the UK last year. But many of you have contacted Newsbeat to tell us you've always wanted to be a nurse but haven't been able to get on training courses. One argument is that not enough people from the UK have the right qualifications. Dani Ella Wynn, 18, from Wigan, applied to six universities to study nursing and midwifery and was rejected from every one. "I'm only 18," she said. "I've always wanted to be a nurse and tried to get as much experience as I could. I've taken four A-levels but still no place."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33692001/nursing-why-the-uk-has-so-many-foreign-nurses (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33692001/nursing-why-the-uk-has-so-many-foreign-nurses)


As regards Llandudno Hospital in particular, the NHS in Wales is run by the Labour Government in Cardiff. Why Ian imagines it is anything to do with the UK Government, I don't know?

Because the UK Government controls the funding for the health service. They allocate funds on the basis of the salary cap - that's why, Dave.  And it's the UK Government that determines the places available for Nursing in Universities.  If the UK Government was to make more money available then there wouldn't be a crisis in Wales. And the UK gov is...er, Tory.


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on July 07, 2017, 03:33:38 pm
Surely we should be asking why we cannot staff the NHS without resorting to importing nurses and doctors from around the world?
Interesting article for and against degree only nursing,

All new nurses to have degrees from 2013.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn)

"The academic must be secondary to the practical. Only then will patients get the nurses they want and trust – the right ones with the right attitude. It must never become more important to write about care than to give it. If our nurses do not have the basics of training, the costs of care will soar because of infection rates and overblown bureaucracy."

Nurses should have degrees - BUT - they shouldn't have to pay tuition fees.
When there was a shortage of teachers the government reduced the qualification criteria and let every Tom, Dick and Idiot teach our kids. I don't want them to do the same with nurses. Give me a qualified Romanian nurse over an unqualified British one any day of the week.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Michael on July 08, 2017, 09:55:37 pm
  Bet a few of you never thought they would see me contributing on this subject. But at least it might flush out lurking trolls.
  Its all about "haves" and "have-nots."  Its all about how society is split right down the middle. And how the "haves" manage to succeed where the rest struggle. Through the haves all sticking together. All helping each other. All being members of the same clubs, mix with the same people, don't need to abide by strict procedures. A quiet word in a corner of a special club to a friend will smooth away any need to go through permissions that normal (i.E. the vast bulk of the population) have to go through.
  Whats brought me to write all this. Well, just a thought. An example.
  Driving in to Llandudno from the A55 black cat roundabout you come to the next but last island. The one that leads to Penrhyn Bay. Carry on to Llandudno. In the next 200 yards you will pass four. Thats right, four. Large permanent signs directing you to St Davids College. Three on one side of the road. The fourth on the other side. Maybe authorised by different organisations. One of them has a blue border around the edges. 
  Now this is complete guesswork on my part. How many vehicles a day turn right here to enter the college. Perhaps 300 or 400., I don't know. But one thing I would bet on. Nine out of ten of them know where they are going.. Staff, deliveries, parents.
    So the number of vehicles who actually need this information is small.
   I am sure there are plenty of businesses large and small around the area who would give anything to have just one sign, never mind four.
   But of course they will be told that there is a strong feeling that there are too many signs around already.
   
 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Merddin Emrys on July 09, 2017, 06:29:47 am
I'm guessing they would not let you have a sign to the golf course ?  ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on July 09, 2017, 08:58:52 am
There are far too many signs generally, so people just ignore most of them, or fail to see the one they really need.

This past week there has been a poster for a Pop Concert at the side of the road leading from Black Cat to Glan Conway, it's just before the first left-hand bend.  Other than Pop Concert I haven't a clue what the rest says - lots of writing - the only way would be to stop the car and get out to read it - highly dangerous there.  Whoever thought of putting it there needs a rethink (I'm being polite!).
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 09, 2017, 09:05:45 am
That's an interesting observation.  Driving in the States is somewhat different, since their planning controls seem far laxer than ours and huge billboard signs are everywhere. And some US signs are not immediately obvious: 'Wrong Way!' is one, but it takes a moment to realise that if you can read it you're actually travelling in the wrong direction on a one-way carriageway. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 10, 2017, 09:21:26 am
Because the UK Government controls the funding for the health service. They allocate funds on the basis of the salary cap - that's why, Dave.  And it's the UK Government that determines the places available for Nursing in Universities.  If the UK Government was to make more money available then there wouldn't be a crisis in Wales. And the UK gov is...er, Tory.
Not at all. The Welsh Government decides how much is spent on the NHS in Wales, they have the freedom to allocate however much of their total budget they wish to healthcare:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35026577 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35026577)

The salary cap remains because the Welsh Government has not removed it, as Plaid Cymru has pointed out on several occasions:

"The decision to lift the NHS pay cap is down to the discretion of the Welsh Labour Government. Since 2010 Welsh nurses, NHS staff and workers across our public sector have been forced to take cuts of up to 14% in their real term wages as a result of the pay cap. The Welsh Government must now do right by our NHS workers and give them the pay rise they deserve. "

http://www2.partyof.wales/pay_our_nhs_workers_a_fair_wage (http://www2.partyof.wales/pay_our_nhs_workers_a_fair_wage)

"And it's the UK Government that determines the places available for Nursing in Universities."

Really? http://gov.wales/newsroom/health-and-social-services/2016/nurse-training/?lang=en (http://gov.wales/newsroom/health-and-social-services/2016/nurse-training/?lang=en)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 10, 2017, 09:24:38 am
Surely we should be asking why we cannot staff the NHS without resorting to importing nurses and doctors from around the world?
Interesting article for and against degree only nursing,

All new nurses to have degrees from 2013.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/nov/12/nurses-nursing-qualifications-degrees-nmc-rcn)

"The academic must be secondary to the practical. Only then will patients get the nurses they want and trust – the right ones with the right attitude. It must never become more important to write about care than to give it. If our nurses do not have the basics of training, the costs of care will soar because of infection rates and overblown bureaucracy."

Nurses should have degrees - BUT - they shouldn't have to pay tuition fees.
When there was a shortage of teachers the government reduced the qualification criteria and let every Tom, Dick and Idiot teach our kids. I don't want them to do the same with nurses. Give me a qualified Romanian nurse over an unqualified British one any day of the week.
Perhaps qualified Romanian doctors & nurses should be nursing in...Romania? Bit selfish of you to expect doctors and nurses to leave their own country to come here to look after you?  :P

"Romanian health service in crisis as doctors leave for UK and other states. Number of doctors in Romanian hospitals has fallen from 21,400 to 14,400 since 2011, says president of professional body"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/07/romanian-health-service-crisis-doctors-uk)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2017, 09:33:42 am
It's interesting.  The AIDs threat caused applications to Universities for Medicine to drop sharply, but they've recovered, now, and it's competitive as ever to get in (although nowhere near as competitive as Veterinary science). But we ought to be training more Doctors and Nurses.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2017, 09:41:48 am
Because the UK Government controls the funding for the health service. They allocate funds on the basis of the salary cap - that's why, Dave.  And it's the UK Government that determines the places available for Nursing in Universities.  If the UK Government was to make more money available then there wouldn't be a crisis in Wales. And the UK gov is...er, Tory.
Not at all. The Welsh Government decides how much is spent on the NHS in Wales, they have the freedom to allocate however much of their total budget they wish to healthcare:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35026577 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35026577) The salary cap remains because the Welsh Government has not removed it, as Plaid Cymru has pointed out on several occasions:

"The decision to lift the NHS pay cap is down to the discretion of the Welsh Labour Government. Since 2010 Welsh nurses, NHS staff and workers across our public sector have been forced to take cuts of up to 14% in their real term wages as a result of the pay cap. The Welsh Government must now do right by our NHS workers and give them the pay rise they deserve. "[/quote]
But it's the UK government that determines the overall budget, isn't it? What would you have them cut?  I'd be interested to hear...

"And it's the UK Government that determines the places available for Nursing in Universities."

Quote
Really? http://gov.wales/newsroom/health-and-social-services/2016/nurse-training/?lang=en (http://gov.wales/newsroom/health-and-social-services/2016/nurse-training/?lang=en)

But the money has to come from the overall budget - which is determined by the UK Government, isn't it? You can't escape the fact that until and unless Wales becomes totally self-sufficient what it does and how it acts are utterly constrained by those who hold the purse strings - the UK Tory government. However, May is making a major speech today (?) in which doubtless she will spell out how she intends to distribute money to the devolved administrations.

Personally, I'm a bit more concerned to discover on BBC Breakfast that the Lake District has the UK's highest mountain...

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bellringer on July 10, 2017, 10:18:00 am
When I heard the piece about the Lake District on BBC Breakfast it quoted Scafell as ENGLAND's highest mountain.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2017, 10:24:00 am
They must have amended it for the second report.  I rewound the prog to make sure, but it definitely cited Scafell as the UK's highest mountain. I would have heard it at around 0715.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on July 10, 2017, 11:53:52 am
But the money has to come from the overall budget - which is determined by the UK Government, isn't it? You can't escape the fact that until and unless Wales becomes totally self-sufficient what it does and how it acts are utterly constrained by those who hold the purse strings - the UK Tory government.
I think you're missing the point, sadly. The Welsh Govt has directed more and more money into the NHS, yet it is getting worse and worse. That's the question that needs to be answered.

As an aside, how can Wales ever become self-sufficient when it has such little in the way of tax paying business and such a large welfare state bill?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Michael on July 10, 2017, 12:48:37 pm
Ha ha Merddyn, you have half a point here. I am indeed in the middle of a planning application for a sign. But not yet had a decision. But no doubt all the paper work I've had to do made me think, oh if only I could have a quiet word in some club with you know who --- the top man.
  Actually in principal I have no objection at all with planning. Especially advertising signs in beautiful places. Anyone who has visited Goa will know the feeling. What a lovely spot. Pity you cannot see it through a Coca Cola or Vodafone monster board. My objection is to the old boys system with our society.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 10, 2017, 01:22:58 pm
But the money has to come from the overall budget - which is determined by the UK Government, isn't it? You can't escape the fact that until and unless Wales becomes totally self-sufficient what it does and how it acts are utterly constrained by those who hold the purse strings - the UK Tory government.
I think you're missing the point, sadly. The Welsh Govt has directed more and more money into the NHS, yet it is getting worse and worse. That's the question that needs to be answered.

As an aside, how can Wales ever become self-sufficient when it has such little in the way of tax paying business and such a large welfare state bill?

I don't believe I'm missing any point: the Welsh budget is organised by Main Expenditure Groups (MEGs), which broadly mirror Ministerial responsibilities. MEGs are further broken into Spending Programme Areas and Actions.

The MEGs are:

    Health and Social Services
    Local Government
    Communities and Tackling Poverty
    Economy, Science and Transport
    Education and Skills
    Natural Resources and Food
    Housing and Regeneration
    Culture and Sport
    Central Services and Administration.

Now, the overall budget (which is the main point) is fixed by the UK Tory government. Wales can't change that, so the only options are to reduce funding for some areas at the expense of others.  So I ask again: which ones would you cut?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 12, 2017, 12:28:24 pm
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/177799/nursing-shortages-shut-llandudno-hospital-ward.aspx)

When more stuff like this happens they will

Bed numbers slashed at Colwyn Bay Community Hospital due to low ‘staffing levels’
http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/178030/bed-numbers-slashed-at-colwyn-bay-community-hospital-due-to-low-staffing-levels-.aspx (http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/178030/bed-numbers-slashed-at-colwyn-bay-community-hospital-due-to-low-staffing-levels-.aspx)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 19, 2017, 11:19:04 pm
Corbynomics Explained
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 21, 2017, 03:03:54 pm
What are your views on a new permanent Welsh Government Small Business Rates Relief Scheme?

Small business owners and ratepayers are being asked for their views on a new permanent Welsh Government Small Business Rates Relief Scheme to be introduced in 2018.In 2017-18, the Welsh Government is providing more than £110 million of rates relief for small businesses. The new permanent scheme will maintain this level of investment. A consultation opens today looking at whether the scheme could provide more support to the small businesses that need it the most. To respond to the consultation please visit gov.wales/consultations.

https://consultations.gov.wales/consultations/delivering-tax-cut-small-businesses-new-small-business-rates-relief-scheme-wales
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 15, 2017, 11:16:10 pm
Following the last sickening terrorist attacks in Manchester, London Bridge and the Bars in London, Theresa May announced in the sternest voice, 'ENOUGH IS ENOUGH'

So I thought, finally something is about to be done.

But sadly it appears to have been worthless, empty rhetoric... seeing as another outrage happened today, and the threat level has been increased to 'critical'

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 16, 2017, 08:30:28 am
The problem is that putting a stop to any further attacks is close to impossible, even if you throw British law out of the window. I recall that the Germans were unable to stop attacks of that nature, and they used to liquidate entire villages over a single attack,.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2017, 12:17:56 pm
The problem is that putting a stop to any further attacks is close to impossible, even if you throw British law out of the window. I recall that the Germans were unable to stop attacks of that nature, and they used to liquidate entire villages over a single attack,.

The authorities to a great job but it is virtually impossible to prevent all the atrocities that are happening.   They know where the problem is originating from but enough is not being done to reduce it.      A lot has been said about reducing migration from the EU but we do share common values with people from Europe, whereas most of the immigration is actually from non EU countries in Asia and Africa.

The trials in Rochdale and Rotherham have hit the headlines but I've not read of any deportation order being put on these people once they come out of prison.     They may be British born and can't therefore be deported but if they hold dual nationality status then the UK nationality should be withdrawn and then they should be deported.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 16, 2017, 12:38:05 pm
Man arrested in Dover on charges of the London Tube bombing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41292528 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41292528)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on September 16, 2017, 12:49:57 pm
The problem is that putting a stop to any further attacks is close to impossible, even if you throw British law out of the window. I recall that the Germans were unable to stop attacks of that nature, and they used to liquidate entire villages over a single attack,.
The authorities to a great job but it is virtually impossible to prevent all the atrocities that are happening.   They know where the problem is originating from but enough is not being done to reduce it.      A lot has been said about reducing migration from the EU but we do share common values with people from Europe, whereas most of the immigration is actually from non EU countries in Asia and Africa.
The trials in Rochdale and Rotherham have hit the headlines but I've not read of any deportation order being put on these people once they come out of prison.     They may be British born and can't therefore be deported but if they hold dual nationality status then the UK nationality should be withdrawn and then they should be deported.
There is more and more talk of "home grown" terrorism on the increase , due to increased vigilance from the security services, these people are finding it harder to travel, and join groups abroad.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 18, 2017, 08:13:51 pm
An article on BBC tonight, the leader of the Welsh Assembly celebrating 20 years since the devolution referendum.
Saying that Wales is fundamentally different now, and was transformed by the result.

However, the vast majority of Welsh people say that they have noticed no improvement or no difference to their services, circumstances or lives in general.

Aren't politicians great?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 19, 2017, 09:16:32 am
An article on BBC tonight, the leader of the Welsh Assembly celebrating 20 years since the devolution referendum.
Saying that Wales is fundamentally different now, and was transformed by the result.

However, the vast majority of Welsh people say that they have noticed no improvement or no difference to their services, circumstances or lives in general.

Aren't politicians great?
I expect he mean that the politicans lives have been transformed by their bloated salaries and expenses, paid for by the rest of us... &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 19, 2017, 09:58:37 am
Absolutely!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 19, 2017, 11:40:47 am
Do they not notice their free prescriptions?  &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 19, 2017, 11:42:11 am
Also I'm sure all the old folks (such as yourself) notice you have free bus travel as well  $walesflag$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 19, 2017, 12:04:31 pm
Do they not notice their free prescriptions?  &shake&

That just leads to more waste, and unnecessary appointments.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 19, 2017, 12:18:31 pm
Wrong it saves the NHS millions of pounds in the long run by reducing hospital attendance.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 19, 2017, 12:23:35 pm
I think it could certainly be argued that providing a service for nothing reduces its worth in the eyes of the person receiving it. Also, can it be right that the taxes of poor working people are used to enable the richest people in society to receive their prescriptions for nothing?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 19, 2017, 12:26:08 pm
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place. So yes, it needs to be free for all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 19, 2017, 01:49:02 pm
I think it could certainly be argued that providing a service for nothing reduces its worth in the eyes of the person receiving it. Also, can it be right that the taxes of poor working people are used to enable the richest people in society to receive their prescriptions for nothing?

It's an interesting topic. Some years ago the government statisticians did an analysis which discovered that it was costing more to  collect and process the payments for prescriptions than it would costs to provide the actual prescriptions, once you take into account those with chronic conditions and those entitled to free prescriptions through other routes.

But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 19, 2017, 05:06:04 pm

[/quote]
But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.
[/quote]

I'll agree with that Ian,  the class system is still very obvious but I'm afraid to say that Labour has created another class.   That other class  can't be classified as working class because they don't work and don't want to work and are content to live off other people like a parasite does.
At present we have Upper class, Middle class and working class but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 19, 2017, 06:39:01 pm

Quote
But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.

I'll agree with that Ian,  the class system is still very obvious but I'm afraid to say that Labour has created another class.   That other class  can't be classified as working class because they don't work and don't want to work and are content to live off other people like a parasite does.
At present we have Upper class, Middle class and working class but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.
[/quote]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on September 19, 2017, 11:12:25 pm
... but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.

How about SCUM ?

Spongers Claiming Unearned Money
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 20, 2017, 06:59:23 am
This excellent article by Owen Jones sums up Boris, Brexit and the Tories perfectly.

'A Stephen King film with a Benny Hill theme tune'.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/19/boris-johnson-tory-scheming-chaos-brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/19/boris-johnson-tory-scheming-chaos-brexit)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 07:57:08 am
... but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.

How about SCUM ?

Spongers Claiming Unearned Money

Sounds appropriate     $good$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 20, 2017, 08:47:40 am
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on September 20, 2017, 08:59:35 am
We are quite lucky around here   We lost three big employers ,hotpoint quints and dolgarog aluminium but coped ,the benefit culture stems from thatchers years of all the industries she got rid of ,you had generations of families working in the factories docks and coal mines all closed no other work , so the knock on effect came along ,But unfortunately We have and always have had the some that seem it is their right to live the life on benefits this government said they were going to change it ha so they pic on the disabled and the lazy gifts still sit on the couch 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2017, 09:02:27 am
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2017, 09:05:01 am

But British society has always favoured the rich over the poor: the criminal justice system, for instance, is underpinned by the philosophy that dictates crime is committed mainly by the poor. The extremely rich have teams of people whose sole task is to discover ways to reduce the taxes they ought to be paying.  We still live in a class dominated society, and never more so than when the Tories are in power.
[/quote]

I'll agree with that Ian,  the class system is still very obvious but I'm afraid to say that Labour has created another class.   That other class  can't be classified as working class because they don't work and don't want to work and are content to live off other people like a parasite does.
At present we have Upper class, Middle class and working class but I don't know what class we could call those able bodied people who are able to work but won't work.
[/quote]

How has Labour created this class? The labour party has always tried to keep people in work, they introduced the minimum wage for one and the party itself was created by Trade Unions....Trade Unions you may remember represent the workers. I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 20, 2017, 11:03:04 am
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.
But who are all these rich people that 'refuse to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription'? Have you any statistics to back up your argument?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on September 20, 2017, 11:14:29 am
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*? And isn't it also the case that 32.1m are now in employment in the UK, which is the highest figure ever, with unemployment falling to its lowest rate since 1975?

Sorry for spouting real statistics, rather than just made up mumbo jumbo.  :laugh:

* - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results)
** - http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls (http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2017, 11:25:09 am
Those 'richest' people in society who collect free prescriptions now would be the same richest people draining up hospital resources when there condition worsens because they were too tight to pay for the medicine in the first place.
What evidence do you have to support that assertion? My guess...none.  :laugh:

Simple logic, if somebody refuses to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription that will make them better, when they eventually get ill because they haven't had that prescription they are not going to book into a private hospital. Therefore they will become a massive burden on the NHS from the time they become seriously ill until the time they die. Which in this day and age can be decades.
But who are all these rich people that 'refuse to see a Doctor or pay for a prescription'? Have you any statistics to back up your argument?

I didn't say there were any! You said "can it be right that the taxes of poor working people are used to enable the richest people in society to receive their prescriptions for nothing?" I never mentioned rich people until then! My point is unless people are treated properly at the source then they will become more ill and thus become more of a drain on the NHS costing more in the long run. That is a fact and a statistic, no matter how many silly ways you try and argue it!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2017, 11:30:19 am
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*? And isn't it also the case that 32.1m are now in employment in the UK, which is the highest figure ever, with unemployment falling to its lowest rate since 1975?

Sorry for spouting real statistics, rather than just made up mumbo jumbo.  :laugh:

* - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2017/results)
** - http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls (http://www.cityam.com/264861/british-employment-reaches-record-high-unemployment-falls)

I don't know why 13,669,883.55676433 voting for them in the last election. Neither do I know why the majority of people voted for Brexit or for Hitler or for Will Young to win Pop Idol.... here's a clue the majority are not always correct!

As for unemployment don't blindly believe everything presented to you. I'm sure you've heard of zero hour contracts

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/06/employment-statistics-wages-uk-jobs-market (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/06/employment-statistics-wages-uk-jobs-market)

"The number of people on zero-hours contracts in their main job rose from 168,000, or 0.6% of those in employment, in 2010 to a record 905,000, or 2.8% of those in employment, at the end of 2016.

Of course, some of that rise may be the result of greater awareness of such contracts and people accurately reporting their circumstances to statisticians.

In the latest figures, there was a drop in the number of companies using such contracts. But as the TUC points out, some of that is down to bad publicity around zero-hours arrangements and companies are finding other ways to employ people on insecure terms. It cites evidence that businesses are employing staff on short-hours contracts, guaranteeing as little as one hour a week.

What these contracts mean in practice is people are turning up to work at shops, care homes and warehouses and, if their employer so chooses, they are being sent home before their shift has even begun.



A second factor is higher self-employment, up from less than 8% of the workforce in 1980 to almost 15% in 2016, as Haldane noted. Some people are happily setting up their own business, enjoying being their own boss. But some is what MPs investigating the gig economy have described as “bogus self-employment”. People were being forced into self-employment as couriers, taxi drivers and other roles, as companies declined to take them on as employees, said parliament’s work and pensions committee. Some were on contracts paying less than £2.50 an hour, said the committee’s former chair Frank Field."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 20, 2017, 12:58:11 pm
I would say this 'underclass' of yours was created by the Tories who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them.
If that were the case, why would 13,669,883 people vote for them in the last Election*?

On the last point, Dave, you have to admit that it wasn't anything like the number the Tories wanted and was probably only that because Labour were in total disarray. 

On the sudden rush to criminalise all those regarded as 'parasites' I would point out that the relevant bill, which has created the grounds for what some see as 'spongers' is the Children Act, passed in 1989 by a Tory Government. So perhaps not fair to assume it was all Labour inspired...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 20, 2017, 01:10:47 pm
Quote
I don't know why 13,669,883.55676433 voting for them in the last election. Neither do I know why the majority of people voted for Brexit or for Hitler or for Will Young to win Pop Idol.... here's a clue the majority are not always correct!

But that doesn't address Dave's point in response to your assertion that the Tories "who wrecked industries and communities in their everlong quest to look after the tiny percent that matter to them".

The crucial point here is that it's extremely dangerous (not to say totally counter-productive) to assume all Tories are the same.  Many retain the old noblesse oblige beliefs that made the Liberals such a force for good and social change in the late 19th/early 20th C.

The UK's brand of democracy depends on the simple fact that all adults are part of the process of government through the vote. Now, you may disagree with the majority and argue they're not correct in their voting pattern but that's irrelevant when dealing with the plebiscite on a national scale. Voters are swayed by numerous factors, but most voters vote for the party that promises to make them wealthier, safer, happier and well fed.  The problems arise when some politicians are utterly disingenuous and lie through their teeth, such as the current Foreign secretary.  He's a liar - pure and simple - and if there's one thing we probably do need it's the ability for a large group of the electorate to call for a referendum on any topic. 

Personally, I'd start by suggesting a referendum to imprison politicians who lie in support of their cause at any time.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 02:01:32 pm
BTR   I can agree with you that the Tories wrecked industries and destroyed communities and used the Police Force as a Militia to do so.  Furthermore I can't think of any positive legislation that they have done purely for the benefit of the majority of the population.   The NHS and before that the OAP were introduced by other political parties.   

Where we probably disagree is on the capping of benefits and just to give an extreme example was the unemployed Somali bus conductor with 7 dependant children who moved his family to Kensington  in London as he wanted them to have a better standard of life.
The Kensington authorities picked up the tab of £95K  and that was just his housing benefits!
That was under the Labour government and they did nothing to cap those benefits.    It's unsustainable to pay people that amount of money for doing nothing.

At least the Tories are capping benefits as it's unfair that any working person receives less money than someone on benefits
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 20, 2017, 02:24:15 pm
I agree with your last point (in principle) but I don't know the ins and outs of the case you mentioned of the Somali bus driver. But I think if he was rent was almost £8000 a month then that's more to do with his greedy landlord abusing the system.
For a four or five bedroom house which they'd need rent should not be that much.

I would also argue that as the money went to his landlord rather than him that he didn't receive more money that any working person, at least not for himself, his other money will have been presumably in child benefits for his kids. Should we let his children starve because their dad is unable or unwilling to get a job?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 20, 2017, 07:25:23 pm
That's a load of nonsense BTR and you know it.     I'm sure that you and I might like to live in Llys Helig Drive  Llandudno but there is one little obstacle in the way and that's cash, or probably lack of it.   It certainly is in my case.

You live where you can afford to, and you have as many kids as you can afford to, but it seems not in some cases.   So what makes them so special?

You work and I've paid taxes for about 55 years so whatever the ceiling of the cap, is you and I both know how much a working person has to earn before they come home with that amount.    Is it fair?  is it hell
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 21, 2017, 09:04:17 am
Hugo

Job seekers allowance is £57.90 a week for under 25 - £73.10 for over 25.

The minimum wage from 21-24 is £7.05 and for over 25 it's £7.50

Therefore anyone working over 9 hours (or 8 for under 25) is earning more than anyone on benefits.

The other benefits you are talking about are housing benefit (which working people are allowed to claim if they are below a certain threshold) and child benefit (which everyone is allowed to claim whether they are working or not)

People not working above that threshold can also claim working tax credit to top up their wages.

It is never the case that anyone not working is on more money than anyone who is working. It may seem so especially in the farcical case you have pointed out but it just isn't.

If it was don't you think a lot more people would give up work? I certainly don't think employment would be at it's "highest rate since 1975."

Yes some principled and hard working people would go to work if it turned out that you would get less money than if you stayed at home (I would because I love my job) but I guarantee you 32 million people in this country would not go out to work if they could get more money by doing nothing.


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 25, 2017, 05:24:29 am
Brexit.

The biggest issue for this country for generations.

And Labour are not debating it at their conference.

Priceless.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 25, 2017, 08:25:00 am
I saw Diane Abbott on BBC Breakfast, yesterday, and I really wonder if she’s up to  the job of giving interviews.  Today, John McDonald was speaking and he showed how it should be done.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 25, 2017, 08:56:25 am
I'm not a fan of Diane Abbott but when she did an interview a few months ago I really felt sorry for her.       She appeared to be ill but whatever the reason she is out of her depth in politics at this level.
She may be an ex of Jeremy but it is unfair to put the pressure on her by allowing her to continue in a job she is unable to handle
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on September 27, 2017, 01:55:17 pm
September marks the fifth month in a row where pay has failed to keep up with inflation. The TUC finds that only one in nine workers had a real terms pay rise this year.

And some people still believe the conservative party is for the working man  :laugh:
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on September 27, 2017, 04:46:00 pm
Now Emma Dent Coad is talking about 'absolute facts', as opposed to any other type of fact. Alternative or otherwise....

She has proved herself to be just another cretinous MP and another embarrassment to the Labour Party.

Is she related to Emily Thornberry?



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on February 16, 2018, 01:19:23 pm
Revealed: 'Staggering' extent of funding gulf between rest of Wales and the south east
Critics have called for a rebalancing of the economy after the release of new figures.

South East Wales gets two and half times more Welsh Government cash than North Wales, new figures have revealed.

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/revealed-staggering-extent-funding-gulf-14298388 (http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/revealed-staggering-extent-funding-gulf-14298388)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on February 26, 2018, 02:30:13 pm
Interesting assortment of views on Corbyn's latest stance on Brexit.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/26/corbyn-speech-brexit-panel-uk-eu-customs-union (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/26/corbyn-speech-brexit-panel-uk-eu-customs-union)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on March 14, 2018, 01:52:22 pm
I have just being watching the Prime Ministers statement to to Parliament on the incident in Salisbury and the Government's response to Russian involvement. It was interesting to hear every MP who spoke, including those from the Labour Party, either directly or indirectly condemn the Leader of the Labour Party Jeremy Corbyn for his weasel reply to the PM's statement.

That man and his front bench are a shocking disgrace.

Pat McFadden's (Labour) pointed rebuke to JC was thinly veiled and cheered by the the house, including the majority of Labour MPs. 


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on March 26, 2018, 08:21:07 pm
Of course the Labour Party is not anti-semitic.

Yea, right.....

Now look who has admitted it is:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/26/jeremy-corbyn-accused-of-being-figurehead-for-antisemitism (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/26/jeremy-corbyn-accused-of-being-figurehead-for-antisemitism)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 27, 2018, 07:32:26 am
This is exactly the sort of issue that rears its ugly head when you have an ineffectual leader dazzled by his own voters' numbers, and the current rise of conspiracy theories that see Jewish cabals around every corner. This has to be eliminated - and fast. For those who think it doesn't matter, they need to read some history books. Quite apart from the fact that Jewish communities have been systemically attacked, isolated, hated and maligned throughout history (it's hardly a recent occurrence) the rise of  unfettered left, as is now happening under JC, will witness the simultaneous rise of an unfettered and extreme right.

There is no room for bigotry of any kind in a civilised and open society.  Sadly, it seems, it continues to blight the country.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 18, 2018, 09:42:55 am
This says a great deal.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/17/mcdonnell-backs-out-of-prison-conference-over-ira-apologist-claims (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/17/mcdonnell-backs-out-of-prison-conference-over-ira-apologist-claims)

In 2003 McDonnell said at an event remembering the death of the IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands: “It’s about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA".

If that's not support for the IRA, I don't know what is.

I suppose that people are going to squirm around this, as they have done denying the anti-semitism in the Labour Party.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 18, 2018, 04:24:33 pm
Bosun,  what you have said is not just an opinion it is a fact.   Your comments also apply to Jeremy Corbyn who calls Hamas his friends and then has the cheek to say that anti semitism in the Labour Party is unacceptable when it his him and his mouthpiece John McDonnell who are the chief instigators of this unacceptable practise



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5mmJQ5NXXc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5mmJQ5NXXc)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bosun on May 19, 2018, 11:24:29 am
What I find so hurtful and galling is that this sordid conduct of supporting terrorists and antisemitism is endemic in the Labour Party, which was founded to fight all the social ills of this country.

Kier Hardy's work, MacDonald's energy, Attlee, Bevan, the list is endless, to Smith and David Miliband, their work to pave a better society is belittled by the conduct of McDonnell, Watson, Corbyn and the congenital idiot that is Abbott. I'm not suggesting that the deluded half-wits in the Conservative party are much better, mad May and Johnson, and don't get me started on miss-spelt Hunt.

But it's because I so strongly believe in the social principles of the founding of the Labour Party, and the the difference that it has made to the country over the past 125 years, that I am so saddened that today, the Labour Party is a self serving travesty of what it should actually be. 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 19, 2018, 01:41:57 pm
..and just at the very time we needed a strong and effective opposition.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 21, 2019, 11:45:39 am
Sounds like a good idea
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 20, 2019, 10:04:48 am
As the split in the Labour Party deepens, I am shocked to see the extent to which anti Jewish racism has permeated it. I am amazed as to why anyone would wish to be a member of such an organisation.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 20, 2019, 10:44:04 am
Yes; before long they'll be as bad as the Tories :-) 

We're in a mess. Both the Tory party and the Labour party are tearing themselves apart, although the Tories are currently in the lead, I suspect, and winning on points.

I don't think Labour is anti Semitic in any real sense. I do however, believe JC has tacitly enabled the nastier elements on the party (and there are as many of those as there are in the Tories) to be more openly nasty than previously.  At this moment in time (which doesn't exist, but that's another story) I couldn't bring myself to vote for either of the two big parties. I can't remeber a time when the UK was in such a state of disarray.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2019, 11:51:05 am
I'm inclined to agree with you Ian,  and the two parties are in a right mess.    Jeremy Corbyn is not a leader, he's been a protester all his life and has voted against Labour policies more often than any Conservative has.    He's done more damage to the Labour Party than anything the Conservatives have ever done and if a General Election was to take place soon who in their right mind would vote for a party lead by Cobyn, McDonnell and Diane Abbott.
They have as much chance of getting into power as Screaming Lord Sutch and the Monster Raving Loony Party had all those years ago.
I saw David Milliband on TV this week and just wish that someone like him could return to politics and get Labour back on track
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 20, 2019, 02:39:49 pm
It's going to be a complete trainwreck and will be fascinating to watch.
I think my quote (above) from a few years ago when Corbyn got elected as Labour Leader was remarkably accurate....
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 20, 2019, 04:08:27 pm
Very worrying for those who have been life long Labour supporters, too.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on February 20, 2019, 07:23:11 pm
Hugo I agree we were brought up to vote labour but as you say how could we vote for them when these idiots are in the way, as you say if David Milliband would have been the leader he'd have been stronger against this weak government.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 20, 2019, 10:33:24 pm
We were brought up to vote Labour because the party was for the benefit of the majority unlike the Conservatives which only look after their own interests.
I remember your Dad telling me that when it came to voting time he always got the Conservative taxi to take him to the Polling booth.   It wasn't because he was voting for the Tories, but that way he would take up the seat of  someone who intended to vote Tory.
The Labour leaders we have now really hold Communist views but stand for Labour as they know that they wouldn't be elected to Parliament if the represented the Communist Party
Interestingly, the Communist Party for the first time ever didn't have any candidates at the last General Election and the reason they gave was that they share the same views that Corbyn was expressing
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 21, 2019, 10:11:31 am
Anyone who seriously believes that any of the main political parties is interested in bettering the lives of ordinary working people is definitely deluded. 90% of Politicians are interested only in furthering their own careers and lining their own pockets at taxpayers expense. The Labour Party is there to fool people into a false hope of thinking the system can be changed. As Johnny Rotten once said, “Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated?”.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 21, 2019, 10:43:36 am
I think politicians comprise - very roughly - two groups: Grabbers and Sharers. Our society's very complex, and no mater which party gains power not a lot changes in the wider scheme of things.  This could be changed if we were to adopt PR for the entire country.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 21, 2019, 12:24:29 pm
I think politicians comprise - very roughly - two groups: Grabbers and Sharers. Our society's very complex, and no mater which party gains power not a lot changes in the wider scheme of things.  This could be changed if we were to adopt PR for the entire country.
How about we scrap Parliament and just have an online voting system for all citizens to use?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 21, 2019, 03:17:35 pm
Yesss...we tried that with the Referendum and look what happened :-)   

We elect politicians to take the decisions that we can't because we can't access all the relevant data easily and quickly.  If they make a pig's ear of it, we sack them at the next election.  It's a highly imperfect system but as Churchill said "democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time".
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on February 22, 2019, 10:17:57 am
I think that, just like the political classes, you’re maybe scared of letting ordinary people express their wishes and views - but it is their money that the Government spends and they are entitled to have a view that should be listened to.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on February 22, 2019, 03:48:11 pm
Views, fine; that's not the issue. But your suggestion was somewhat more stringent than that. Running the country by continuous plebiscite is what you seemed to be suggesting, Dave, and I would hate to see where that would take us.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 26, 2019, 12:41:48 pm
May to offer MP's no deal Brexit vote


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 01, 2019, 10:12:21 am
Views, fine; that's not the issue. But your suggestion was somewhat more stringent than that. Running the country by continuous plebiscite is what you seemed to be suggesting, Dave, and I would hate to see where that would take us.
But why do you imagine your views have more validity than anyone else’s? In a democracy, we are all equal, surely?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 01, 2019, 11:04:57 am
Views, fine; that's not the issue. But your suggestion was somewhat more stringent than that. Running the country by continuous plebiscite is what you seemed to be suggesting, Dave, and I would hate to see where that would take us.
But why do you imagine your views have more validity than anyone else’s? In a democracy, we are all equal, surely?

I don't; and I don't think they are, any more than you do  :-)  I simply lack easy access to the information  needed on which to base decisions of national importance.  We may have a very low opinion of MPs (not always warranted) but they're the ones we pay to make the right decisions, based on the vast amounts of information  their staff and the civil service can access.  Or do you believe we don't need information on which to base these decisions?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: born2run on March 06, 2019, 12:33:50 pm
I think politicians comprise - very roughly - two groups: Grabbers and Sharers. Our society's very complex, and no mater which party gains power not a lot changes in the wider scheme of things.  This could be changed if we were to adopt PR for the entire country.
How about we scrap Parliament and just have an online voting system for all citizens to use?

For exactly the same reason as if you needed your Gas boiler fixing you wouldn't send an online vote out to everyone in your town on how it should be done and then go ahead with the popular answer.

It would blow up

Much like the country will with Brexit.

The answer is always get an expert to do it. Like it or not Parliamentarians are our experts in politics.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 06, 2019, 04:45:35 pm
I agree with BTR  leave it to the politicians like this one she's brilliant, vote Labour
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Meleri on March 06, 2019, 05:44:03 pm
 Brilliant Hugo  ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: squigglev2 on March 08, 2019, 04:28:53 pm
But is it original?  It was used on an American Democrat politician last year…


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on March 08, 2019, 08:31:03 pm
 :)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on March 12, 2019, 10:26:23 am
I think politicians comprise - very roughly - two groups: Grabbers and Sharers. Our society's very complex, and no mater which party gains power not a lot changes in the wider scheme of things.  This could be changed if we were to adopt PR for the entire country.
How about we scrap Parliament and just have an online voting system for all citizens to use?

For exactly the same reason as if you needed your Gas boiler fixing you wouldn't send an online vote out to everyone in your town on how it should be done and then go ahead with the popular answer.

It would blow up

Much like the country will with Brexit.

The answer is always get an expert to do it. Like it or not Parliamentarians are our experts in politics.
If you honestly believe the majority of MPs are experts in anything other than submitting expense claims, then I am afraid you are deluded. By way of evidence, I refer you to the local MP. Does anyone ever see him in Llandudno?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on March 20, 2019, 09:39:10 pm
Theresa May said this tonight, as she addressed the people of Britain.

The PM said it was "now time for MPs to decide" whether they wanted to leave with her deal, no deal or whether they chose not to leave at all - the latter she warned could cause "irreparable damage to public trust" in politicians

I disagree on her final point, that damage was done long, long ago.  It really can’t get any worse.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on March 21, 2019, 12:04:39 am
They should never of taken those matches off Gye Fox
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on March 21, 2019, 12:34:41 am
They should never of taken those matches off Gye Fox

I assume you mean Guy Fawkes?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 21, 2019, 08:56:24 am
Theresa May said this tonight, as she addressed the people of Britain.

The PM said it was "now time for MPs to decide" whether they wanted to leave with her deal, no deal or whether they chose not to leave at all - the latter she warned could cause "irreparable damage to public trust" in politicians

I disagree on her final point, that damage was done long, long ago.  It really can’t get any worse.

 $donald$

So true, so very, very true.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: snowcap on March 21, 2019, 10:18:10 pm
thats him Fester i forgot you came from yorkshire but my way of spelling it is a lot quicker
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 14, 2019, 09:30:34 am
The government is planning to increase VAT on renewable energy installations to 20%. Coal etc will still get 5%.

So much for the 'climate emergency'.

Sign the petition here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/260903
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 14, 2019, 09:43:18 am
Nothing like a bit of encouragement,.............. and that's it "nothing."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on June 15, 2019, 02:27:53 pm
Does any Forum member have any property overseas that I could rent for the rest of my life?


Because if that idiotic, dangerous buffoon Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister, I’m seriously out of here!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on June 15, 2019, 05:38:19 pm
Why are the contenders for leadership of the Blue party being paraded in front of the whole nation on tv when the only people with a vote are Tory party members ?
It is not as if they have an overall majority .
Do the Democratic Unionists still have any say in all this or are they going to be ignored ?

Getting beyond a joke now!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 07, 2019, 04:39:29 pm
Boris Johnson's backers seem to have done a good job by giving him a low profile. possibly to ensure that he doesn't put his foot in it and make more gaffs      He's done his best to avoid a head to head with Jeremy Hunt, but now there will be one on Tuesday night on ITV at 8.00 pm but what's the point as all the votes will already be in!

One interesting thing I read in the paper on Friday was about Boris' time in office as Lord Mayor of London.      In housing development nowadays developers are expected to include an element of "affordable housing"       The billionaire Reuben  brothers were proposing to build 207 luxury flats and a 150 room boutique hotel at Millbank Tower  London.

Planners had suggested a £57 million "financial contribution in mitigation is an appropriate alternative"  to affordable homes at the site.
Westminster Council accepted the " maximum reasonable amount of affordable housing in this instance is zero"  and did not request any compensation.

How on earth do they get away with this type of thing.     We are all in this together was a famous Tory quote, somehow I don't think so.    &shake&

This week Boris revealed that he has accepted £50K  in donations from  James Reuben!         The latest filings of MP'S register of interests reveal Boris has been given £235,500.00  by wealthy donors from June 18th to July 1st

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on July 07, 2019, 06:54:59 pm
I find it annoying that people keep referring to him as Boris.
There is a reason for this it sounds nicer than adding a surname as all the other contenders had been addressed.

God help us we really are now a 3rd world country and I can only see it getting worse.
I did not vote for Scottish Independence last time round but next time  ??? . Got to get away from this Brexit mess.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on July 08, 2019, 09:25:41 am
I have noticed that Boris's private life isn't being covered in the press that much, except for the latest incident over the row at his girl friend's home. I am sure the security services are trying to undermine him as there is no doubt he presents a security risk. The reports suggest that he has fathered numerous illegitimate children and cannot keep his pants up.

Boris was a member of the notorious Bullingdon Club when he was at Oxford. They appear to have been some sort of Hooray Henry yobbos.

What worries me is the fact he is so pally with Trump. They have a sort of of love in together and they both seem to think highly of one another. That rings alarm bells as could it mean that Boris will do as Trump wants and not question him? In view of the fact Trump is so unreliable, plus he seems keen to provoke nuclear war, does it mean vote Boris, get Trump?

Helig
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2019, 11:39:52 am
Another allegation was that the British Intelligence Service withheld certain information from Boris when he was the Foreign Secretary as he simply couldn't be trusted not to blurt out the information when he went on one of his rants
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on July 23, 2019, 09:38:56 pm
I’m thinking that Boris Johnson is destined to become one of the shortest term Prime Ministers in British history.
I foresee him getting nowhere renegotiating any type of Brexit deal, not before the deadline at least.
I then predict a vote of no confidence, as parliament block his no deal version of Brexit.
An early general election, followed by him, and most other leading current politicians consigned to the dustbin of history.

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 24, 2019, 08:40:30 am
We can but hope...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on July 24, 2019, 08:52:25 am
What SHOULD happen is for every MP to get behind Boris and MAKE IT WORK.

That didn't happen for Theresa May, and she was (arguably) more popular

The electorate were given the choice - the vote was to come out.

I have to admit that I thought that coming out simply meant stop paying the "subs" and use the money for our own things (such as NHS) and to be self-governing and free to negotiate deals around the world.  If I want to stop being a member of a club then all I have to do is cancel my direct debit for the subscription.  If only things had been that simple!

I forsee the next election resulting in a three-way split, so who knows what will happen to us then .

I also think the media (press and social) do absolutely nothing to help the situation - concentrating more on little oddities in the lives of the people at the top, instead of concentrating on the important issues and policies that affect us all.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 24, 2019, 09:26:30 am
Another referendum has to be held. That's really the only answer. So many lies were told by the Brexit campaigners during the first one, and the time elapsed means around 2.2m more people are now eligible to vote all make leaving now an immoral decision. If there's a massive majority in favour of leaving, then the argument is won.  But I continue to wonder why the Brexiters are running so scared of another referendum.

Meanwhile, if we had a half-decent opposition, then they could force an general election.  However, now both Labour and Tory parties are run by people who make Donald Trump look intelligent.
Title: Re: National politics............... WALES
Post by: SteveH on July 26, 2019, 01:27:48 pm
Wales' free bus pass age to rise from 60 to state pension age

The age people become eligible for free bus passes in Wales is to rise from 60 to the state pension age, under Welsh Government plans.

Ministers are concerned about the rising cost of the pass, with 880,000 people expected to be eligible by 2021.
Transport Minister Ken Skates confirmed the move, to be introduced gradually, will be included in a proposed new law.

The Older People's Commissioner said she was concerned about the potential impact on the most vulnerable.
Details of when the changes will be introduced remain sketchy. The pass, introduced in 2002, entitles users to free bus travel.

The state pension age for men and women is 65, but will rise to 67 by 2028.

Cont...........  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49098325 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-49098325)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 02, 2019, 08:48:32 am
The Brecon and Radnorshire election was revealing in several ways.  B & R has long been a LibDem seat, and was occupied by the Tories only relatively recently. The worrying factor for labour, however, is that they'd never polled with fewer than 5000 until this one, when it was a miserable 1680. 

Quite apart from the glaringly obvious observation that JC really, really needs to go - or at least develop some policies - the same bloke the electorate ousted for having committed a criminal offence with his expenses (described by the Tory party chairman as 'a mistake') still managed to get 12000+ votes.  Still, I suppose if we're happy to vote criminals into parliament they will at least fit in rather well.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 02, 2019, 03:08:34 pm
Like thousands of others I received this e-mail regarding the free TV Licence for the over 75's

"Prime Minister Boris Johnson has got your message loud and clear after we handed in our petition at the door of 10 Downing Street yesterday.
A massive 634,334 of you signed the petition and we now await a response.
As Prime Minister, Boris Johnson has the power and authority to immediately make the decision to keep the free TV licence for all over 75's. We really hope we have done enough to make him listen to us.
We’ve made sure the government can’t ignore us by projecting our campaign message onto the front of Parliament and the Treasury too. 

I’ll let you know as soon as we hear anything, so please keep your eye on your inbox."

It will be interesting to see what happens in the next two years      $hands$       

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 02, 2019, 03:17:39 pm
The Brecon and Radnorshire election was revealing in several ways.  B & R has long been a LibDem seat, and was occupied by the Tories only relatively recently. The worrying factor for labour, however, is that they'd never polled with fewer than 5000 until this one, when it was a miserable 1680. 

Quite apart from the glaringly obvious observation that JC really, really needs to go - or at least develop some policies - the same bloke the electorate ousted for having committed a criminal offence with his expenses (described by the Tory party chairman as 'a mistake') still managed to get 12000+ votes.  Still, I suppose if we're happy to vote criminals into parliament they will at least fit in rather well.

If it wasn't so serious, it would be really funny, a farce in fact.        It would be interesting to hear what supporters of Jeremy Corbyn think about the result and the Labour Party's future
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on August 02, 2019, 04:45:50 pm
From Wiki, it looks as if B&R was actually a Labour seat from 1939 to 1979 when it was won by the Tory, Tom Hooson. The Lib Dem presence seems a little patchy with Tories and LDs both chalking up similar periods since Labour lost. Labour's gradual reduction could be mainly due to the decline in industry and mining at the Ystradgynlais end and demographic changes generally.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 02, 2019, 04:50:16 pm
Nothing to do with the Jeremy Corbyn factor then Cambrian?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on August 02, 2019, 05:05:10 pm
From Wiki, it looks as if B&R was actually a Labour seat from 1939 to 1979 when it was won by the Tory, Tom Hooson. The Lib Dem presence seems a little patchy with Tories and LDs both chalking up similar periods since Labour lost. Labour's gradual reduction could be mainly due to the decline in industry and mining at the Ystradgynlais end and demographic changes generally.

Pretty sure it was demographics that changed the vote, but over the period 1970 - today Labour won three times (once in two elections only months apart), the Tories won 5 times but the Lib Dems have held the seat during 7 general elections.

But at a time when the Tory candidate was a convicted criminal, the Tories themselves have been waging all kinds of civil war and Labour has been busily imploding and largely rudderless I would have expected any other party to do better. It says a lot about Corbyn - mostly bad.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 04, 2019, 08:15:19 am
Well, Guto Bebb is no longer in the Tory party, the hypocritical clown Johnson having thrown him out of the party.  I can't remember any previous time in UK politics that has been as bad as it is now.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 04, 2019, 12:32:39 pm
If it wasn't so serious it would be quite funny really.       If there is a General Election who do you vote for, the loony right or the loony left?

At least Screaming Lord Sutch was honest and admitted representing  the Monster Raving Loony Party
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 05, 2019, 09:17:15 pm
I posted on this forum, around 9 months before the 2016 referendum, that we would have little or no information to base our voting decisions on.
It actually turned out worse than that, we were confronted with blatant lies.

Having established that fact, there should have been another referendum, for that reason alone.

Now, as we career into ever deeper chaos, if they ran the referendum again, I don’t think we are any closer to understanding what the heck we would be bringing about by voting either way.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 06, 2019, 08:40:43 am
I suspect you're right.  Einstein once said “Nationalism is an infantile disease. It’s the measles of humanity" and he was absolutely right. Perhaps as a species we might grow up - eventually.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 06, 2019, 11:57:20 am
https://youtu.be/cOfffyn4SWI


Priceless.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on September 06, 2019, 07:46:12 pm
My final ever Brexit comment...
Seeing as we seem incapable of reaching a decision, on 31st October, our EU colleagues should take the decision out of our hands, and BOOT us out of the EU.
And I’m saying that as a Remainer!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 11, 2019, 09:35:21 am

This morning on BBC Andrea Leadsome was interviewed. The interviewer specifically asked her about the reversal of the EU student rule, which May had enacted when Home Secretary.

She started her response by stating ‘When we’re out of the EU and can take back control of our immigration…”.

There were several things wrong with that initial response; we have always controlled our own immigration, the change wasn’t made with EU citizens in mind, and her response had nothing whatsoever to do with the question.

The interviewer, aware she was merely choosing to make a party political statement instead of answering the question posed, pushed her to answer the original question.

She then started talking about the wonderful future leaving would afford everyone, still avoiding answering the question she was asked, claiming that the UK government was the ‘most open in the world’.

But the interviewer then interjected (if he hadn’t, the entire slot would have been taken by Leadsome doing nothing but making a party political broadcast on behalf of the Brexit party) and challenged her on that point, arguing that the government wasn’t warning businesses about the potential dangers.

She then made an almost unbelievable statement: she said it wasn’t a good idea to tell people about the worst possible scenario, using the analogy that she could get run over on leaving the studio.

Those who dislike what they perceive as ‘rudeness’ of interviewers interrupting politicians should watch that interview again and again, until they see exactly why we need an intelligent, probing, free media to expose the appalling duplicity and evasiveness of the average cabinet member.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 11, 2019, 05:56:56 pm
This makes for very cheery readin (https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/government-stockpiling-body-bags-says-yellowhammer-doctor-1-6250748)g...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 11, 2019, 06:12:57 pm
That's very comforting         &shake&

It's turning into a mad mad world
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on September 11, 2019, 06:54:14 pm
Yes Ian we watched and the wife shouting at the Tv ,, answer the question will you 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 12, 2019, 08:51:02 am
[smg id=4118]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on September 12, 2019, 10:03:34 am
I am being cynical again...........

Yesterday...   "Scottish court rules prorogation of parliament is unlawful "

Today .......    "A new generation of Royal Navy frigates has been won by a consortium led by Babcock.
                      The firm has been named preferred bidder for the £1.25bn contract for five Type 31 warships.
                      The deal secures hundreds of jobs at Rosyth in Fife"
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 12, 2019, 04:15:24 pm

Jeremy Corbyn walks into a Bank to cash a cheque. "Good morning, could you please cash this cheque for me?"

Cashier:"It would be my pleasure. Could you please show me your ID?"

Corbyn :"Actually, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the Labour Party.

Cashier:"Yes, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation etc., I must insist on seeing ID."

Corbyn: Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."

Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr Corbyn, but these are the bank rules under the legislation, and I must follow them."

Corbyn,"Come on please, I am urging you, please cash this cheque."

Cashier: "Look sir, here is an example of what we can do. One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque."

"Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot where the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque. So, sir, what can you do to prove that it is you and only you?"

Corbyn stands there thinking and thinking and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do. I don't have a clue."

Cashier: "Will that be large or small notes , Mr Corbyn. ?....

 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on September 12, 2019, 04:56:47 pm
 $donald$

I reckon without the media lies (it's not just the politicians) and scaremongering we would all have a better idea of what was in store.  I just wish someone would come up with a definitive list if what will happen if we go, without any name-calling and slagging off of the opposing parites.  I suspect it will be quite a short list.

As an insulin dependent diabetic can someone explain to my why I will not be able to get my essential medication if we drop out of Europe.  That is one of the stories going round, however I am one of the few to use animal-based insulin produced in Wrexham so it seems I'll be OK ...

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-are-insulin-supplies-really-at-risk-from-a-no-deal-brexit (https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-are-insulin-supplies-really-at-risk-from-a-no-deal-brexit)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 21, 2019, 09:03:37 am
Talk about bad timing and the way Labour seem to be heading.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49776100)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2019, 11:05:40 am
Well, Boris has broken the law after all and Labour are sitting on the fence ( as usual ) over Brexit       &shake&

It's a mad mad world in Politics right now



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49807552 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49807552)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bri Roberts on September 24, 2019, 11:15:28 am
Time to go for walk, Hugo.  $sunny$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 24, 2019, 11:22:00 am
Sounds like a good idea Bri          $cofffee$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 24, 2019, 12:15:03 pm
Had the court concluded that he'd misled the Queen deliberately there is still an ancient law on the books that would have allowed for his beheading...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 21, 2019, 04:27:24 pm
Brexit: MPs' vote on deal ruled out by Speaker John Bercow

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50128740 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50128740)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 06, 2019, 11:04:51 am
The next General election could be very interesting. Apart from the Tories having to make three apologies this morning, including one for having tweeted a doctored video about Keir Starmer, the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) found that a government claim that people moved into work faster on universal credit (UC) than under the old system could not be substantiated.

Two other claims – that jobcentres will pay an advance to people who need it and that rent can be paid directly to landlords under UC – were also found to be unsubstantiated.

The adverts, part of a £225,000 Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) campaign to detoxify UC, appeared in print in the Metro newspaper and on its website, as well as on the MailOnline, in May and June.

They attracted 44 complaints, including from the Motor Neurone Disease Association, the Disability Benefits Consortium (DBC) and the anti-poverty charity Zacchaeus 2000 Trust (Z2K), who have called for the DWP to apologise in light of the ASA ruling.

The Z2K chief executive, Raji Hunjan, also demanded an investigation into working practices at the department.

If it has misled the public on UC, its flagship policy, what else is it misleading us on?” Hunjan said. “The next government must engage with the compelling evidence that points to the harm UC is causing, leaving many people reliant on food banks and others destitute. Enough is enough.”

Full story here (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/06/dwp-misleading-universal-credit-uncovered-ad-banned?utm_term=RWRpdG9yaWFsX01lZGlhQnJpZWZpbmctMTkxMTA2&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=media_email&utm_campaign=MediaBriefing)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 06, 2019, 11:19:19 am
The other apologies concerned attempts by Jacob Rees-Mogg to draw a line under his remarks that the victims of the Grenfell fire lacked “common sense” and the doctored video of Keir Starmer.

The rapper Stormzy joined relatives, including the nephew of a Grenfell Tower victim who died after being told to stay put by the London fire brigade, in angrily dismissing Jacob Rees-Mogg’s statement that victims should have left the burning tower block.

Rees-Mogg issued “a profound apology” after he told a radio interviewer: “I think if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.”

The Starmer video involved doctoring a video of Starmer appeared to be non-plussed over a question which,i n fact, he had already answered in full. Fullfactg.org has already condemned it but interestingly, even Piers Morgan said the Conservative version was unfair. 

Morgan tweeted: “You doctored the end of the clip you originally put out, to make it look like @Keir_Starmer had no answer to my question. In fact he answered immediately. You could have had plenty of fun with that interview anyway - why fake it?”

Why does this matter?

The incident highlights the difficulty in reporting on misinformation and online duplicity during a general election. The extra attention given to misleading social media posts often creates a feedback loop, with algorithms on Twitter and Facebook responding to the high levels of user engagement by pushing it into more people’s feeds.

This has led to fears that there is very little to be lost by political parties reinforcing lies and deceptive material in a media environment where the aim is often to get attention at all costs and by any means. After the misleading edit of the video was highlighted by the BBC journalist Daniel Sandford, the video attracted almost a million additional views.

In very simple terms, telling lies works in the age of social media.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 07, 2019, 09:30:06 am
Well, after the Tories spent yesterday shooting themselves in their collective feet, today it's Labour's turn. Ian Austin has contributed to the incredible mix we have in this election (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/former-labour-mp-ian-austin-says-jeremy-corbyn-unfit-to-run-country-and-urges-people-to-vote-for-a4280816.html) by describing JC as 'unfit to lead' as PM.

It's no secret whatsoever that I agree about Corbyn, although it's mainly his lack of decisiveness in dealing with the fringe groups I deplore, but to argue that the previously Labour-voting electorate should now vote for the egregious Johnson is, I think, taking things a bit too far.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 07, 2019, 09:30:44 am
There is more. His local paper reports:

"The adopted son of a Jewish refugee who escaped the Holocaust, Mr Austin’s aunts and grandmother were murdered by the Nazis.

He says his late father Fred, who died earlier this year, taught him to “always stand up to racism and prejudice”.

“I have done that all my life and I could not stand by as the Labour Party has been poisoned by racism, extremism and intolerance under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership,” he added.

“I regard myself as proper, decent, traditional Labour, but I think he is completely unfit to lead our country. "

This promises to be the most...interesting election in my lifetime.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2019, 12:02:58 pm
The situation changes on a daily basis and now Tom Watson has resigned as Deputy Leader of the Labour Party.     I think that the present day politics has lost all its credibility and instead of uniting the country all it is doing is dividing it.
How can anyone decide which way to vote?            The Conservatives only represent a fraction of the voters that have actually voted for them and the Labour Party has turned into a Marxist Party while the Liberals are campaigning on a remain in the EU policy  against the wishes of the majority of people who voted to leave the EU

The SNP are seeking independence  but expect to have no hard borders with the rest of the UK.    The fact that if they do leave the UK it will take years for them to get into the EU but they can expect opposition to their entry from Spain.   In addition they have been told already that they cannot have the pound sterling as their currency or the Euro for that matter.   In addition there must be a brexit type divorce settlement from Scotland

I don't know if the Communist Party are putting any candidates forward but perhaps they are happy that their policies are being represented by the Labour Party.

No wonder people are confused by all of this
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on November 07, 2019, 02:14:14 pm
The other apologies concerned attempts by Jacob Rees-Mogg to draw a line under his remarks that the victims of the Grenfell fire lacked “common sense” and the doctored video of Keir Starmer.

The rapper Stormzy joined relatives, including the nephew of a Grenfell Tower victim who died after being told to stay put by the London fire brigade, in angrily dismissing Jacob Rees-Mogg’s statement that victims should have left the burning tower block.

Rees-Mogg issued “a profound apology” after he told a radio interviewer: “I think if either of us were in a fire, whatever the fire brigade said, we would leave the burning building. It just seems the common sense thing to do.”

Jacob Rees-Mogg's comment was absolutely the right one to make. In the event of a fire you get out, stay out and call the brigade out. Its so basic, that it beggars belief London Fire Service didn't follow that procedure, if they had a lot of lives would most certainly have been saved. To be giving people the advice to stay put in their flats 2 hours after arriving on site, is in my opinion, wholly unforgivable and the top management of London Fire Service are not fit to hold their positions. (politically correct, promoted persons, instead of the best person for the job)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on November 07, 2019, 03:39:40 pm
Blongb,  This might explain some of the reasons, for the decisions made.

I was a firefighter at Grenfell Tower.         ref The Independent 13th June 2018

I attended the Grenfell Tower fire as a firefighter in a relief crew long after the fire originally started, and I have since retired. I wasn’t present during the earliest stages, although I have many friends and colleagues who were. And I’ve decided to speak out primarily because I find the conspiracy theories and insults on all sides in the aftermath of the fire particularly distressing.

I have attended dozens of high-rise fires in my 31 years as a London firefighter. The number of blocks I’ve visited or conducted inspections on probably number in the hundreds. I spent nine years teaching, among other things, high-rise procedure to new recruits.

The “stay put” policy has been in for a lot of criticism since Grenfell, with claims that it led to the deaths of residents and that firefighters continued to give bad advice even after it was “obvious” that fire was being spread across the building by cladding. Since then, some residents in domestic houses have contacted the fire service to ask if we want them to stay put (no we don’t). Occupants of high-rise flats have wondered if “stay put” is no longer policy (it is).

In fact, the “stay put” policy is the only thing that can work routinely in a residential high-rise building, and here is why.

The building is designed to contain fire in each individual flat and for the stairways especially to remain clear of smoke and heat. This is why it is vital all doors are fire doors and closed in the event of fire (which also means working door closers and smoke seals on all doors are essential).

If everyone were to evacuate around the same time, opening doors as they did so, this would immediately compromise the fire safety of the building. Aside from all the crush injuries, if all residents opened all their doors and the doors to the stairwell at the same time, heat and smoke would intrude into the only escape route. This could create a chimney effect, spreading fire, and result in loss of life. Quite simply, moving away from a “stay put” policy will kill people.

This is why you are not allowed integrated alarms or communal fire alarms in nearly all residential high-rise buildings. You aren’t supposed to hear alarms because you aren’t supposed to evacuate. Only the flat affected is supposed to evacuate. This is also why there were no fire drills at Grenfell. There shouldn’t be. 

I would like to recommend reading the full interview   follow link or search  " I was a fire fighter at Grenfell tower"
 https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1eUQX9eNiUPYJPh-zlf4_ymkCNLkjI-36Y3aGozIEkOczVoTSGJXf7qbM#Echobox=1572609340 (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-one-year-one-kensington-a8397276.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1eUQX9eNiUPYJPh-zlf4_ymkCNLkjI-36Y3aGozIEkOczVoTSGJXf7qbM#Echobox=1572609340)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on November 08, 2019, 03:22:48 pm
I've read what the Professional Fire Fighter said about staying put at Grenfell as that was the accepted policy at the time, but look what happened as a result of that policy:

Another instance was the disastrous fire at Manchester Airport involving an British Airtours 737. when the aircraft stopped the Cabin Crew were told by the Pilot to wait for the firecrews to arrive as he had stopped by the fire station. Fortunately an ex RAF man who had personal experience of an aircraft fire in the Far East, opened the front cabin door at his own volition,which directly resulted in the saving of 82 lives.

My last example is of the Piper Alpha disaster, I worked offshore with a Helideck Landing Officer who was on P.A. the night it blew-up. During a quiet moment I asked him how had he managed to survive when so many had perished. He said he ignored the stupid advice from the Rig Managers to stay put and wait to be rescued. He ran through fire and jumped 120 ft into the North Sea against all the safety advice at that time. The Fire should have killed him, the Fall should have killed him and being in the Sea in the middle of winter should have killed him. but he survived because he knew in a fire you put as much distance between you and it in the quickest possible time as you can.

In a FIRE you evacuate as quickly as is humanly possible 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 27, 2019, 08:56:13 am
A great example of the Tory leadership (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYZswb7wCmA) manipulation...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2019, 03:22:13 pm
A column by Boris Johnson in which he raged against working-class communities has come back to haunt him.

The Prime Minister blasted "blue collar" men and claimed many were criminals - without offering any evidence.
He said the "modern British male is useless", adding: "If he is blue collar, he is likely to be drunk, criminal, aimless, feckless and hopeless, and perhaps claiming to suffer from low self-esteem brought on by unemployment."

The comments were made in a rant in The Spectator magazine in 1995 about the number of single mums in Britain.

He complained the "proliferation of single mothers" was costing taxpayers £9.1billion a year and producing a generation of "ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive and illegitimate children".

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on November 29, 2019, 05:57:25 pm
well the Prime Minister should know-------- Illegitimate children------ Is he having a laugh ?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on November 29, 2019, 09:07:37 pm
Isn't it amazing how someone can find quotes from 20+ years ago in order to turn voters against certain people ... totally wrong how the media is trying to manipulate the election.

You might not like what the quote says ... but aren't there elements of truth in much of it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 30, 2019, 09:28:06 am
Isn't it amazing how someone can find quotes from 20+ years ago in order to turn voters against certain people ... totally wrong how the media is trying to manipulate the election.

You might not like what the quote says ... but aren't there elements of truth in much of it?

This is what the press do DVT  but isn't it nice to know what Boris thinks of the working class people?     That includes the likes of you and I and millions more.   

Anyway here are a few more recent gaffes to add to the list

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-prime-minister-leader-mistakes-gaffes-iran-libya-muslims-europe-sacked-a9016666.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-prime-minister-leader-mistakes-gaffes-iran-libya-muslims-europe-sacked-a9016666.html)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 30, 2019, 09:43:28 am
For a more recent analysis, this sums up Johnson quite well: What I've learnt about Boris Johnson since we first met 30 years ago  (https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-what-ive-learned-about-boris-johnson-since-we-first-met-30-years-ago-11873990).
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 05, 2019, 03:25:10 pm
I remember living in a Salvation Army Hostel in Liverpool in 1965 and watching the General Election results being announced on the TV in the evening.    Every Labour victory was greeted with a cheer as it gave a ray of hope to many who were there as they knew how the Tories would treat the working class

I wonder what those Labour MP's would think of the present Labour leadership?      The Three Amigos who are at the helm of the present day party are just beyond belief      Corbyn. McDonnell and Diane Abbott are just a group of  indecisive, fantasists and Marxists and must be the worst example of Labour politicians in living memory.

As for Boris, he's a liar and buffoon who has made politics into a pantomime farce so what happens next week is anyone's guess
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-chequers-homeless-prime-minister-a4304646.html (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-chequers-homeless-prime-minister-a4304646.html)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on December 05, 2019, 08:49:43 pm
Hi Hugo.

Well said.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 06, 2019, 09:24:17 am
I agree.   

But Johnson has ducked the Andrew Neil interview by refusing to say whether he'll submit to it. This strategy is designed to stop the BBC running the interview without him, with Andrew Neil simply revealing the questions he had for Johnson.

We know Johnson is a liar; he's been sacked for that in the past, but if he doesn't say he will submit in the next three days, Neil should present the interview without him.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 12, 2019, 06:03:40 pm
I voted at the Polling Station earlier today and must admit that it was the most reluctant vote I've ever cast and for the first time ever voted tactically
It was a difficult decision and the people I spoke to also  had the same difficulty in deciding who to vote for.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on December 12, 2019, 06:40:27 pm
Thank God for the SNP  :)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on December 12, 2019, 08:36:08 pm
I was at a polling station for about 3 hours this morning even though the weather was shocking the turnout was very busy and loads of young voters, as they were leaving they said NHS we had to come and vote, some were just 18/19 so we’re angry they didn’t have a say in the referendum.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on December 13, 2019, 09:51:31 am
 $hands$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2019, 12:43:27 pm
That Labour has endured its worst result since 1935 isn't a surprise to anyone, except those who supported the sainted JC. His resignation is the one good thing to emerge from today's shambles.

The BBC published a graphic illustration showing how NHS expenditure over the past 20 years was lowest under the Tories and highest under Labour.  I suspect as the egregious B  Johnson is revealed to be the liar we all knew he was, there will start a slow but inexorable move away from the Tories. But too late for the five years that will follow.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2019, 02:50:46 pm
A lot of the voting was tactical as many staunch Labour voters actually voted for the Conservatives as they considered that Jeremy Corbyn was the worst ever leader of any Labour Party
Now lets give the Conservative Government a chance and see whether their promises were true or false, time will tell
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 13, 2019, 03:40:59 pm
Sadly, we already know that B  Johnson is a confirmed liar.  Fullfact.org has been checking (https://fullfact.org/election-2019/boris-johnson-lbc-factchecked/) his 'promises' and has found some interesting things:

He's talked about increasing the number of nurses.  But even if another 50,000 nurses were hired tomorrow, it would only bring the number of nurses per 1,000 to the highest level it has been since at least 2010.  So nine years ago we had at least 50,000 more nurses.  Who's been  in charge since then?

He added that: “40 new hospitals will be built”.

Six hospitals in England have been given the money to upgrade their buildings within the next five years. The rest are being given a total of £100 million in “seed funding” to develop plans for their hospitals between 2025 and 2030, but no money for any actual building work. The current plan is for works on these hospitals to take place between 2025 and 2030.

So when will any new hospitals be built?

He lies all the time.   He claimed "The money going into the NHS as you know, it's the biggest increase in living memory, a £34 billion increase.”

Once you adjust for inflation (which is the most meaningful way to look at spending increases) the “£34 billion” is a spending increase of £20.5 billion between 2018/19 and 2023/24. But the last time spending increased by at least that amount over five years was between 2004/05 and 2009/10. 

So I think we know what to expect.  It's just a massive shame that Labour couldn't see what many of its own MPs could and what most Labour supporters could: Corbyn was a huge liability.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2019, 05:16:23 pm
s:

He's talked about increasing the number of nurses.  But even if another 50,000 nurses were hired tomorrow, it would only bring the number of nurses per 1,000 to the highest level it has been since at least 2010.  So nine years ago we had at least 50,000 more nurses.  Who's been  in charge since then?

So I think we know what to expect.  It's just a massive shame that Labour couldn't see what many of its own MPs could and what most Labour supporters could: Corbyn was a huge liability.

Ian, we already know that of those 50,000 nurses,  19,000 are already employed by the NHS so the actual increase in nurses would be 31,000,   But if we do get them will that be spread over time, say 5 years?
20,000 extra Police officers too to replace the ones that the Cons have cut already.      We need the nurses and Police now not in stages
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on December 13, 2019, 06:01:03 pm
It's a great surprise to me that most people don't know that it was Conservative voters who elected JC leader of the Labour Party. I know that sounds daft but..... Who had the longest odds against being elected to lead the Labour Party.....JC. How many new people joined Labour without any form of verification, just before he won?..... and how much money was laid on with the Bookies in those last few days before his unexpected victory? It was a win win situation for the Conservatives, a lot of very clever people made a great deal of money on the betting and they knew no sane person was going to elect an old Trotskyist and his Islington Cohorts to run the country. Poor old JC he will just have to walk around to Diane Abbott's house with a new sign  $booboo$  and with a bit of luck she will be able to tell him how many beans make five.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 13, 2019, 06:11:24 pm
That's certainly true and Corbyn even voted over 530 times against his own party, far more that dodgy Dave Cameron ever did

He's just a protester, certainly no leader and the sooner he stands down,  along with some of his Marxist friends then the Labour Party will have a chance to rebuild and regain the confidence of voters again
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on December 15, 2019, 03:29:00 pm
I've been listening to Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford stating the will of the Scottish people cannot be denied and that we must give in to their demand for a second independence referendum. What I haven't heard is anyone South of the border giving the SNP a reality check as every breakup has its price and the financial cost to Scotland would be astronomical..
   
The National Debt is currently running around £1,821 Billion. The Scottish proportion of that, with 8.4% of the UK population, would be £153 Billion. They would loose all of the money including the overpayment as a result of the Barnett formula which they currently enjoy, whereby they get more from the Exchequer each year than they contribute.

Can they be deluded enough to think Europe would accept them as a member of the EU when it would be impossible for them to meet the financial requirements of membership, especially with the loss to the Community of the UK's current contribution.

Labour have just had a reality check, I think it's time the SNP had one as well and if they still wish to go down the independence road Good Luck to them. We can still be my friends but at least my taxes wont be paying for it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on December 15, 2019, 05:23:18 pm
Blongb, I am still in touch with relatives and friends throughout Scotland, and not one wants independence, most agree the UK is to small already, speaking on the subject, to an uncle over the weekend, he mentioned that the majority of his golf club, although of mixed political preferences, are against it, so lets hope common sense prevails
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 15, 2019, 05:41:26 pm
What I find interesting and depressing in equal measure is that between them Labour and the Lib Dems gained 13,967,696 votes while the Tories only gained 13,941,086 votes; 26,610 less than the Lib Dems and Labour.  Lib Dems and Labour have 213 seats and the Tories 365.

This is why the Tories have run scared about introducing PR for years. And it's why the entire UK should have PR. Because the electorate have a right to be fairly represented.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 15, 2019, 06:24:53 pm
Blongb,  you are correct in everything that you have said and Nicola Sturgeon should be honest and tell the people of Scotland about the reality of voting for independence for Scotland,
First of all there is no automatic guarantee that Scotland could get into the EU,  even if they did it would take many years for them to do it and they could expect strong opposition from other countries especially from Spain
Secondly the currency aspect, they cannot use the EU and the UK has already said that Scotland cannot be linked to the Pound Sterling.
Then there has to be a hard border between Scotland and England and the implications of future trade with the UK including defence.

We need Scotland as much as Scotland needs us and together we are stronger as a united kingdom as Steve's posting has explained

The Liberal Party has been trying for PR for years but the idea has been blocked by the two main parties who have too much to lose by going for PR.      Instead we have to put up with the hype and lies of the Conservative and Labour Parties, why can't they put the interests of the UK before party politics

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on December 15, 2019, 06:26:08 pm
I am certainly no expert on politics but ...

... 3 years ago there was a democratic vote that UK left the EU ... this was followed by so many things put in the way that we are still waiting for it to happen, the delay having cost us a fortune in the meantime.

... not long ago Scotland held a democratic vote that Scotland remains part of the UK ... since then their political leader has continually bleated about having a second referendum to try and get the result she wants.

... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 15, 2019, 08:56:41 pm
... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.

So do you think it';s democratic when the majority of votes cast were against the Tory party? More voted for the other parties than the Tories.  In Wales we have PR, so that doesn't happen.   Nor in Scotland.  Perhaps it's time the UK Parliament followed suit and gave us a democracy worthy of the name.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on December 15, 2019, 10:51:10 pm
The biggest problem with a PR system is you are likely to end up with governments like Italy or Belgium where they are changed with such regular monotony no actual governing takes place.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mondie on December 16, 2019, 10:02:34 pm
I don't know why that would be Blongb, Australia has had PR for over 100 years and that hasn't been an issue. If the democratic vote is finely balanced and a hung parliament results that is not a mark against PR, it's just the reality of a fine balance. I saw an analysis the other indicating that this election if run under PR would have resulted in a hung parliament and the LD's with 80 seats. Instead, we now have a conman as PM who got in with a policy based upon deception. Marvellous.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DaveR on December 17, 2019, 02:55:00 pm
... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.

So do you think it';s democratic when the majority of votes cast were against the Tory party? More voted for the other parties than the Tories.  In Wales we have PR, so that doesn't happen.   Nor in Scotland.  Perhaps it's time the UK Parliament followed suit and gave us a democracy worthy of the name.
If Labour had won, of course, it would have been a fair victory and there wouldn't be a problem!  ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 17, 2019, 03:08:51 pm
 :laugh:

Well, for some, I suppose that might be the case.  But you might know I've long been a campaigner for some form of PR to be introduced. The UK Parliament foisted it on the devolved assemblies, who had no choice in the matter, so it seems at leat reasonable t hat they now consider it for themselves.

I would not have wanted Labour to win this time around, either; not given the calibre of their leader. And Labour doesn't want PR any more than the Tories. But I believe the electorate in the UK deserves PR, otherwise we'll continue to get the absurd situation where the government always has fewer votes than the opposition. And that's not democracy - by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 20, 2020, 10:38:20 am
AN unprecedented amount of money has been deployed to support Welsh businesses during the coronavirus pandemic.

Today, Minister for Economy, Ken Skates said the Welsh Government has £1.4 billion of support, adding the government had “never ever deployed such a figure to support Welsh businesses”.

Warning, that many businesses were hours not day away from collapse, Mr Skates also praised Welsh businesses for, in the most part, acting with compassion during these difficult times.

He said: “If you had a good business in 2019, you will have a good business in 2021.”
“Here in 2020 we have a battle in which we must all fight together.”

He also said that he believed, as Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said, that the tide against the virus could be turned in 12 weeks if everyone works together and takes advice about health and social distancing.

He asked people to act with compassion, not to hoard or panic buy, and to support shop workers and lorry drivers who are vital in getting food, of which there is enough for everyone, on to the shop shelves.

He urged businesses to be sympathetic to the metal health of employees and for everyone to be vigilant against scammers using the crisis to their advantage.   ref Pioneer

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 26, 2020, 09:41:47 am
The UK Government has dropped plans that would have slashed the number of Welsh MPs by more than a quarter.

Unveiled in 2016, the proposals included cutting Wales’ representation in Westminster from 40 to 29 to allow a smaller House of Commons of 600 rather than 650 members.

But facing several hurdles – including some resistance from its own MP’s – the Government has now announced that it will not proceed with the plans, citing the extra workload that MPs now face due to Brexit.

If implemented, the plans would have seen the political map of North Wales change dramatically. The region currently returns 11 MPs to London.

But proposing to reduce this to 7, they included:

Anglesey and Arfon largely merging into a single seat.

A new constituency of North Clwyd and Gwynedd stretching from Tywyn in the southwest up to St Asaph in the northeast

South Clwyd and North Montgomeryshire running from Ruthin all the way down to Machynlleth

Proposed seat of Colwyn and Conwy taking in the resorts of Abergele, Colwyn Bay, Conwy, Llandudno, Penrhyn Bay and Rhos on Sea
https://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/18335913.plans-abandoned-reduce-regions-mps-11-7/?ref=rss (https://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/18335913.plans-abandoned-reduce-regions-mps-11-7/?ref=rss)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 07, 2020, 06:45:33 pm
There are more important things happening at the moment but it was good to see the new Labour leader Keir Starmer giving his support to the Government at this important time in our history
Amusingly Jeremy Corbyn, delusional to the end claimed " that he was leaving the party in a position to win the 2024 general election"

But a more realistic Mr Starmer said "We've just lost four elections in a row.... we need to change"

Let's get this Coronavirus sorted out as a united front and then see what happens afterwards because when all the dust has settled we know that we needed more NHS staff and Police officers than the number we were left with after 10 years of austerity

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2020, 10:45:46 am
I was pleased Starmer got it. Labour seems to go through these cycles, electing someone whom the supporters love but who doesn't have a clue and who then leads them defeats after defeat, before finally common sense takes hold and they elect someone who knows what they're doing.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 08, 2020, 12:27:59 pm
To be fair Ian, many Tories voted for Corbyn to be the leader of the Labour Party knowing full well that having him as leader of the opposition would mean that they would stay in power while he remained there
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on April 08, 2020, 02:03:24 pm
Some did, certainly Hugo, but just how many is open to question and whether it was anywhere near enough to swing the result is also debatable. I believe Momentum managed to recruit a lot of disenfranchised Militant supporters, who joined purely to put Corbyn in power.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on April 08, 2020, 11:38:55 pm
Some did, certainly Hugo, but just how many is open to question and whether it was anywhere near enough to swing the result is also debatable. I believe Momentum managed to recruit a lot of disenfranchised Militant supporters, who joined purely to put Corbyn in power.

And I think,like Hugo,a huge number of Tories were able to join the Labour Party during their leadership election period and then voted for Corbyn, because he had the longest odds with the bookies. Stupid Membership rules equates to stupid results. Now at least the Islington cabal's days are done and hopefully we can get back to some sensible, nay, credible opposition.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on April 10, 2020, 05:35:05 pm
The Government quite rightly are asking people to work from home if that is at all possible but I didn't realise until I read the Daily Mirror today that MP's can claim an extra £10,000.00 for working from home.
We are all in it together seems to be the anthem of the Government but they are only words so how many MP's will claim this knowing that the other people who work from home will not have that extra £10K to fall back on?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on May 06, 2020, 10:45:29 am
The Welsh Assembly becomes the Welsh Parliament: Everything you need to know.


FROM today, the National Assembly for Wales is known as the Welsh Parliament, or Senedd Cymru.

The name change is to reflect the Senedd’s “constitutional status” as a national parliament, equipped with “full law-making powers”.

Why now?

The decision to change the name was passed in the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act, becoming law in January 2020.

The date of May 6, 2020 is written into the Act and was chosen to mark one year before the 2021 Senedd Elections.

more  https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/18429534.welsh-assembly-becomes-welsh-parliament-everything-need-know/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/18429534.welsh-assembly-becomes-welsh-parliament-everything-need-know/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on May 12, 2020, 06:31:10 pm
The ramblings of an English Tory twit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52636162?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales/north_west_wales&link_location=live-reporting-story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52636162?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/wales/north_west_wales&link_location=live-reporting-story)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on September 19, 2020, 10:33:53 am
Raab's bodyguard would be as much use as a chocolate tea pot after this lapse of memory


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/police-protection-officer-travelling-dominic-18961456 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/police-protection-officer-travelling-dominic-18961456)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 04, 2020, 03:54:27 pm
It's an insult to Wales and another Tory gaff

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54407676 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-54407676)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 16, 2020, 12:47:55 pm
Honesty and integrity are words that have been banded about too often this year and somehow seem to have lost their meaning.
Take for instance Dominic Cummings who traveled to the family home in Durham during lockdown although he did it with "integrity"
That family farm has been subject to a probe by the Valuation Agency Office Durham County as the family are liable to pay Council Tax on all the properties there but it will not be backdated.
This means that years of unpaid taxes on two homes will be written off.     Instead new charges for the properties will start this month

When the Valuation Office investigates fraud like this they normally backdate the money lost and add penalties and interest to the sum but for some inexplicable reason they haven't done it in the Cummings case.
Integrity and honesty don't feature in this Tory's vocabulary.        One rule for them and another for everyone else   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on October 16, 2020, 01:25:38 pm
Agreed, I have probably lost interest now, but I cannot think of one politician I would have confidence in.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on October 16, 2020, 02:25:48 pm
The current situation reminds me of that famous quote of Nye Bevan concerning the nature of the Tories. He said they were, "lower than vermin". This is the quotation in full:

https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2419471-why-not-trust-the-tories (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2419471-why-not-trust-the-tories)

Helig
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2020, 03:24:09 pm
...and he was too kind.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 16, 2020, 04:53:54 pm
Now here is an easy quiz question:-

David Lloyd George     Liberal  introduced the OAP in 1909

Nye Bevan    Labour   introduced the NHS in 1949

Now the question is:-      what radical introduction has been  done by the Tories in their many years in office that has benefited each and every person in the UK?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 17, 2020, 11:59:35 am
No guesses?    I thought that it would be easy but I've googled it and nothing has come up, so perhaps that's the answer, nothing!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Blongb on October 17, 2020, 01:04:42 pm
No guesses?    I thought that it would be easy but I've googled it and nothing has come up, so perhaps that's the answer, nothing!

Except having to put the economy back on an even keel after spinthrift Labour Governments left the Country on the edge of Bankruptcy through their lack of understanding of economics.

Remember it was a Labour administration that gave the USSR the design for Rolls Royce jet engines, later found in Mig 15 which shot down and killed our airmen in Korea.

Remember it was a Labour administration that squandered the revenue we should have got from North Sea Oil (remember the pound in your pocket will still be worth a pound).

Remember it was a Labour administration that failed to control Communist controlled Unions that thought they had more right to run the country than the elected Government .

Take the rose coloured specs off, they are all as bad as each other, it's just some are more inept than others. Having said that a question for you, what do you call 650 MP's chained together at the bottom of the river Thames?
A very good start.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 17, 2020, 03:46:54 pm
No guesses?    I thought that it would be easy but I've googled it and nothing has come up, so perhaps that's the answer, nothing!

Remember it was a Labour administration that gave the USSR the design for Rolls Royce jet engines, later found in Mig 15 which shot down and killed our airmen in Korea.

It's not quite as simple as that, B. Russia was our ally in WWII, so selling (not giving) the Nene engine to them was a commercial decision. In any case, the war had given the Germans a lead, after they'd used Whittle's patent illegally, and the US was given the information, with Whittle leading the team, and they used the information to give Boeing a world lead, without paying the UK a penny, so international skulduggery was rife at the time. I doubt it's fair to blame either Labour or Tories.

The Unions isn't a simple matter, either; it was more to do with the culture that arose in a disillusioned UK following WWII that led to a huge decline n UK manufacturing. Outdated voting practices made it easy for troublemakers to control things in Unions, but the social legacy persists at places like Landrover to this day.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 17, 2020, 04:05:59 pm
I had forgotten about all the money raised by the Tories in the 1980's when they sold off the National assets at discounted prices.    Mainly to the large public companies but they did allow Joe Public a little indulgence
I just wish that I could have bought my house with a 40% discount like the Tories did with the Council Houses      &shake&

I do agree with you though that both the main Parties are as bad as each other.         
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Robbie G on October 17, 2020, 05:53:04 pm
 Churchill gave you freedom Hugo free speech otherwise you would be speaking German now ,also I believe you were a public sector worker Mrs Thatcher gave you index linked pension ( unsustainable I might add )and finally Boris has given us freedom from the  E. U. but you are free to criticise who you like 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 17, 2020, 07:07:36 pm
If I'm not mistaken Robbie,  Ted Heath took us into Europe so perhaps Boris is just correcting a wrong.      As for Mrs Thatcher she was a good leader even if her policies weren't always for everyone and she also gave herself and her ilk index linked pensions so I'm grateful for that and I even joined the others when she was dishing out the nations assets.
As for Winston, a good leader in war but not in peacetime as he found out when the war ended
We all have the freedom of choice and if you are happy with Boris and the Tory policies then so be it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 17, 2020, 07:55:38 pm
Hmmm... This isn't a simple topic but I have managed to find out some information.

It was in fact the pensions (Increase) Act of 1971 that had been passed in Parliament in 1970 by the Labour Government of Harold Wilson that made provision for inflation proofed pensions. It was Thatcher, in fact, who instigated the Scott Inquiry which she directed to examine if index linking was appropriate. She also chose to implement a deduction of between 3 and 8.5% per annum from civil servant salaries to compensate for the index linking.

The Inquiry recommended that “the most fruitful approach…would be to preserve index-linking of pensions but to increase the contributions of those in work.”

The full details are here. (https://www.margaretthatcher.org/source/prem19/prem19-0433)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 18, 2020, 11:10:29 am
Thanks for putting the matter straight Ian.         $good$
 I was surprised when Mrs Thatcher's name was mentioned as she is more known for snatching than for giving, especially when it comes to the working class
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on October 18, 2020, 04:03:34 pm
The unions were created to fight the exploitation of the workers who were paid low and worked hard for centuries. The demarcation disputes were often cited as being one of the ways the workers were being difficult. In reality these were due to workers asked to do work, other than their specific job, then being injured, or killed, and employers disclaiming liability as they weren't doing the work they were paid to do.

Thatcher set about destroying the unions, the miners in particular. The state was engaged in all manner of unlawful actions in order to do this. The book, "The Enemy Within" by Seamus Milne gives a thorough account of all the dirty tricks used by the police and security services.

My gt grandfather was one of those who formed one of the first railway trade unions. I think he would be sickened by the destruction of the unions which means that people these days are exploited once again. Zero hours contracts, the so called gig economy, short term contracts, there are few permanent jobs with decent conditions these days.

The Tories have returned the work world to favour the rich bosses and companies at the expense of their workers. Look at Amazon, just one of many to have poor working conditions and treating employees badly.

Helig
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Robbie G on October 18, 2020, 04:45:00 pm
Helig  while what you say is correct i have been on sites where you lost a days pay because you had left your union card at home ,because some union official would decide to have a show of cards for no apparent reason .The unions contributed to their own downfall ,just remember the winter of discontent .
I am not a card carrying member of any political party and each and every party  has it fair share of good M.Ps.  I struggle to name any mind as for Mrs Thatcher she had no choice but to take on the unions we could not carry on having wild cat strikes on the whim of some union official the Yorkshire miners and other areas rejected Scargills call for strike action but the South Wales coalfield gave their support there was only one winner it was pretty obvious who was going to succeed .As for Amazon I never use them  but it seems pretty obvious the general public think they give a good service that is why they are so successful . 
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 26, 2020, 05:03:25 pm
IT HOPED the new lockdown in Conwy will help fight a possible 'second wave' in North Wales.

As of Thursday at 6pm on October 1, extra restrictions will be introduced in the counties of Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire and Wrexham.

The restrictions mean that residents cannot travel out of the county in which they live without a valid reason.

By taking early action, the four North Wales councils, the Welsh Government and other key partners hope they can slow the upward trend in cases.

Cllr Sam Rowlands, Leader of Conwy County Borough Council, said: "We all know the figures are going up, so taking early action to control the spread of the virus and to protect people’s health is crucial.

"By supporting extra measures now, we have a better chance of reversing the trend, keeping people safe.”

A week or two is a long time in Politics           &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 29, 2020, 03:34:47 pm
Labour suspends Jeremy Corbyn over reaction to anti-Semitism report         About time too, he has inflicted more damage on the Labour Party than any Tory government could ever do.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54730425)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 01, 2020, 01:01:10 pm
It's a shame that Party politics is getting in the way of this Covid pandemic

On the 30th September Cllr Sam Rowlands said " We all know the figures are going up, so taking early action to control the spread of the virus and to protect people’s health is crucial.

On the 7th October  Cllr Sam Rowlands wrote to the Wales First Minister asking him to relax the travel restrictions in Conwy County and said the current travel rule is "likely" to be "catastrophic" for Conwy's local economy, potentially resulting in job losses and businesses going under".

Then on the 25th October 2020   a Facebook Group called  "End Conwy County's Local Lockdown "  with other parties,  irresponsibly arranged for a protest demonstration on the Llandudno Promenade and they  didn't help their cause with the choice of speakers either.

Now on Thursday the 5th November 2020 all of England is to go in lockdown.    There's bound to be fireworks that night but keep politics out of what is an extremely serious matter
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 18, 2020, 02:22:18 pm
Jeremy Corbyn will not return as Labour MP, says Sir Keir Starmer.            Corbyn has single handedly done more damage to the Labour Party than the Tories could ever do.    He has also voted against Labour  more often than any of the recent Tory PM'S have done so that says a lot


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54986916)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 27, 2020, 02:14:38 pm
"We are all in this together"     is a catch phrase that the Tory Government has been saying quite often.     But are we?
After imposing a pay freeze on the public employees,  it will be interesting to see how principled these MP's are.


https://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/18903824.mps-covering-anglesey-gwynedd-denbighshire-object-proposed-3-300-payrise-mps/ (https://www.northwaleschronicle.co.uk/news/18903824.mps-covering-anglesey-gwynedd-denbighshire-object-proposed-3-300-payrise-mps/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 29, 2020, 03:54:57 pm
Plans for restrictions on 'already struggling' hospitality sector slammed by Conwy council leader.        Isn't this the same Tory that was going to arrange a peaceful demonstration on Llandudno Promenade?
While most of the people in the County were making sacrifices the irresponsibility of this Tory beggars belief           &shake&
He might even have to write again to Mark Drakeford after tomorrow's briefing

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/plans-restrictions-already-struggling-hospitality-19362867 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/plans-restrictions-already-struggling-hospitality-19362867)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 18, 2020, 03:10:33 pm
I'm surprised that this hasn't been reported more widely in the press but it emerged just weeks after the Tory Chancellor  imposed a pay freeze on millions of public sector workers.
Dominic Cummings "who was brought in for his understanding of working class voters". has had his pay increased by £40,000.00 to £140,000.00 since December 2019.
It is unclear if Cummings was given the increase before or after his trip to Barnard Castle during the first lockdown

What an example to give to the British public in more ways than one
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on December 18, 2020, 03:47:41 pm
He was awarded that £40k rise straight after Boris the goon won the election, his rise is what 4 families have to live on for a year 😡, mind you it was said that was his petrol allowance to Durham 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on December 18, 2020, 03:58:32 pm
The 60 Welsh Assembly members have been awarded 2.4% pay increase, taking their basic salary to over £69,000.  It will be interesting to see what they award their staff with.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on December 18, 2020, 04:01:35 pm
Will the pigs in the trough reject it like Westminster 🤔 And they will still milk the expenses. 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 21, 2020, 04:48:03 pm
I have just been reading an e-mail from a friend and noticed a quotation at the bottom of the e-mail  which seems quite appropriate many many years later.   The quotation is:- 


 “In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.”
        Napoleon Bonaparte

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 31, 2020, 11:56:59 am
Boris Johnson's Tory-linked peerages raise fresh claims of cronyism.     Boris's brother Jo Johnson is awarded a peerage for services to what  ???

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/boris-johnson-tory-linked-peerages-raise-fresh-cronyism-claims (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/boris-johnson-tory-linked-peerages-raise-fresh-cronyism-claims)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on December 31, 2020, 12:48:11 pm
Boris Johnson's Tory-linked peerages raise fresh claims of cronyism.     Boris's brother Jo Johnson is awarded a peerage for services to what  ???

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/boris-johnson-tory-linked-peerages-raise-fresh-cronyism-claims (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/boris-johnson-tory-linked-peerages-raise-fresh-cronyism-claims)

Disgraceful ...........
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 05, 2021, 10:42:55 am
'Fat mums' rant lands North Wales councillor in trouble after NHS tweets
Gareth Baines has since resigned as chairman of Clwyd South Conservative Association 

Former local Liberal Democrat council candidate Aimi Waters, a planning analyst and a foster parent, tweeted: “Chairman of Clwyd South Conservatives showing his true colours there. Oh dear. Come on though, are we all surprised? #NeverTrustATory.”

What an earth was he thinking of when he made that post, perhaps he has been in isolation for far too long or has overdone it on the Whiskey or perhaps a combination of the two.
Anyway his head seems to have gone but there's not much wrong with his eyesight

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/fat-mums-rant-lands-north-19563144 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/fat-mums-rant-lands-north-19563144)

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 07, 2021, 10:25:15 am
Another Tory twit Andrew R T Davies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55565693 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55565693)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 23, 2021, 03:45:10 pm
Tory Senedd leader Paul Davies quits over alcohol row and Darren Miller does too              $drink$

After all they bare there to make the rules, not to break them            $good$


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55767262 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55767262)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on January 23, 2021, 05:29:46 pm
What is so bad they still insist they did nothing wrong, 😡 The poor lad behind the bar will get the fine 😢,   It's like the Tory minister going to a Christmas party in London, when found out they changed the invites to a meeting 😡😡😡😡. And they wonder why more and more people are going around more.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BrianP on January 23, 2021, 06:21:59 pm
I hope they make an example of both these men. A heavy fine at the very least.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 28, 2021, 03:24:34 pm
Coronavirus: Tory MP Sir Desmond Swayne refuses to apologise over Covid claims

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55839252 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55839252)
Title: Re: National News
Post by: SteveH on February 19, 2021, 02:05:23 pm
Prince Harry and Meghan Markle have confirmed to the Queen they will not be returning as working royals, Buckingham Palace confirmed.

Buckingham Palace said in a statement: “The Duke and Duchess of Sussex have confirmed to Her Majesty The Queen that they will not be returning as working members of The Royal Family.

“Following conversations with the Duke, The Queen has written confirming that in stepping away from the work of The Royal Family it is not possible to continue with the responsibilities and duties that come with a life of public service.

“The honorary military appointments and Royal patronages held by The Duke and Duchess will therefore be returned to Her Majesty, before being redistributed among working members of The Royal Family.

“While all are saddened by their decision, The Duke and Duchess remain much loved members of the family.”

The decision was made after conversations between Harry and members of the royal family.

The military, Commonwealth and charitable associations which will revert to the Queen are:
The Royal Marines, RAF Honington, Royal Navy Small Ships and Diving.

The Queen’s Commonwealth Trust, The Rugby Football Union, The Rugby Football League, The Royal National Theatre and The Association of Commonwealth Universities.

A spokesperson for Harry and Meghan said: “As evidenced by their work over the past year, the Duke and Duchess of Sussex remain committed to their duty and service to the UK and around the world, and have offered their continued support to the organisations they have represented regardless of official role.                                          ref Pioneer
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 21, 2021, 02:12:22 pm
Cronyism case: Dominic Cummings denies requesting £840,000 Covid-19 contract for “my friends”       If this type of thing happened in Asia or Eastern Europe we would quickly call it corruption but in the UK  cronyism is alive and well under the Tories



https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/02/cronyism-case-dominic-cummings-denies-requesting-840000-covid-19-contract-my (https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2021/02/cronyism-case-dominic-cummings-denies-requesting-840000-covid-19-contract-my)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 05, 2021, 10:11:18 am
The United Kingdom “is over” and a new union should be crafted to reflect a “voluntary association of four nations”, Wales’ First Minister has said.

Mark Drakeford warned the break-up of the UK was possible if politicians only offered a “tweaking of the status quo”, and said Boris Johnson’s lack of engagement with the devolved nations undermined efforts to keep them together.

“What we have to do – to quote a Conservative member of the Senedd, David Melding – is we have to recognise that the union as it is, is over. We have to create a new union.

“We have to demonstrate to people how we can recraft the UK in a way that recognises it as a voluntary association of four nations, in which we choose to pool our sovereignty for common purposes and for common benefits.”

Mr Drakeford said the “relatively random basis” on which the UK Government engages with the devolved Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland administrations “is not a satisfactory basis to sustain the future of the United Kingdom”.

cont https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/19138003.waless-first-minister-says-boris-johnsons-lack-engagement-devolved-nations-undermines-efforts-keep-uk-together/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/19138003.waless-first-minister-says-boris-johnsons-lack-engagement-devolved-nations-undermines-efforts-keep-uk-together/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 15, 2021, 02:59:28 pm
I had my first leaflet for the elections in May and it was from Darren Miller AM.     I must admit that for a Conservative he has been very good in the few instances that I've experienced with him.
I'm not sure who to vote for this time but I'll gladly have a drink with Darren afterwards         $drink$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 25, 2021, 01:44:18 pm
25 law changes coming into force in April - from Universal Credit to driving lessons
All these changes will apply from next month across the UK

April marks the start of a new financial year, a new year usually comes with new rules, and this one is no exception.

The likes of Council tax, utility bills and mobile phone charges are all set to rocket as inflation-linked hikes come into force affecting millions of households.

But reports that alongside price hikes, there will also be dozens of law changes that will also affect everything from house purchases to employment rights.

Meanwhile, benefits are rising, while extra rules will come in to help you use your money better.

full article https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/25-law-changes-coming-force-20253183 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/25-law-changes-coming-force-20253183)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 24, 2021, 01:17:08 pm
THE MS for Aberconwy has been appointed as a Commissioner for the Senedd.

Janet Finch-Saunders MS will take on the role for the Welsh Conservative group, which involves providing the Welsh Parliament with the staff and resources they need to carry out their roles.

The Senedd is required by law to appoint Commissioners each term. It includes the Llywydd, or Presiding Officer, who is the speaker of the Senedd, plus four other MSs nominated by each of party group in the Senedd.

cont https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/politics/19395380.janet-finch-saunders-ms-appointed-commissioner-senedd/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/politics/19395380.janet-finch-saunders-ms-appointed-commissioner-senedd/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 06, 2021, 12:49:47 pm
[smg id=4144]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 08, 2021, 03:40:45 pm
It would appear that the UK has no proper policy on immigration despite all the big talk given before and after Brexit.     Up to the 20th July 2021    8,452 people had illegally crossed the Channel to come to the UK.but how many have been returned to where they came from?
The UK also appears to have no policy whatsoever for integrating genuine asylum seekers into our country.
When the Jewish people left Europe to go to Israel,  Israel had a policy where everyone learnt to speak Hebrew so that they could integrate with the Israeli people and contribute to that country.
Theresa May when she was Home Secretary said in 2010  " As well as tackling abuse of the marriage route we need to ensure that those who come here can integrate successfully into society and play a part in their local community.
So from 29 November, those applying for marriage visas will have to demonstrate a minimum standard of English"

It is obviously not being implemented because I was watching a Police reality programme yesterday and the Asian man could speak no English although he had lived in the UK for 13 Years..       The UK has always welcomed genuine asylum seekers in the past and they had to learn the English language so something needs to change

From a personal point of view I cannot understand why this is happening as this is a barrier for integration.    It's also annoying because in living memory Welsh speaking children were banned from speaking their own language in their own country and made to speak English.   If they were caught speaking Welsh they were forced to wear a " Welsh not"as a way to shame any child who was caught speaking Welsh.
How times have changed in the UK

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on September 08, 2021, 09:53:17 am
Political map of Wales to be redrawn - this is what it means where you live
Proposals have been put forward by the Boundary Commission to reduce the number of MPs by creating larger constituencies

Plans to shake up Westminster constituency boundaries will radically redraw the political map of Wales.
It will end political careers and see electoral wards move across county borders to join new, enlarged constituencies.

Old constituency names will disappear, such as Arfon, Vale of Clwyd, Clwyd West and Clwyd South.

New proposals from the Boundary Commission for Wales, published today, follow a decision to reduce the number of Welsh seats in Westminister from 40 to 32.

Under rules set out in the Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986, each constituency proposed by the Boundary Commission for Wales must contain between 69,724 and 77,062 electors.

The only exception to this rule is Ynys Môn, which recently became a protected constituency and so will see no changes to its name, designation or boundaries.

cont  https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/political-map-wales-redrawn-apart-21509434 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/political-map-wales-redrawn-apart-21509434)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on September 08, 2021, 02:34:10 pm
[smg id=4149]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on September 08, 2021, 05:02:06 pm
Very true.......... &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 16, 2021, 10:37:09 am
Jackie Weaver has embarked on a mission impossible.    The zoom star who won fame calmly supporting a toxic online council wants  "Politicians to be banned from lying"         
I'm afraid that she's got no chance of that,  seeing that Boris is at the helm and has made a career out of lying.     She won't get any support from Hancock,  Cameron, Osborne and the like either


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jackie-weaver-mission-clean-up-25227722 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/jackie-weaver-mission-clean-up-25227722)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 16, 2021, 07:55:47 pm
All too true, sadly. When not lying, obfuscation is the tool of choice for politicians.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 30, 2021, 12:20:35 pm
Conservative MS admits mistake over data sharing NHS survey
The survey on Sam Rowlands' website seemed to suggest participants' information could be shared with the Conservative Party, a breach of Senedd rules
It's not the first time this Tory has made a gaff,  just last year he spoke of arranging a peaceful lockdown protest on Llandudno promenade.
We're all in this together sounds more hollow than ever                    &shake&


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conservative-ms-admits-mistake-over-21997326 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/conservative-ms-admits-mistake-over-21997326)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2021, 10:00:02 am
I wouldn't condone such an action but  the taxpayer is more likely to pick up the bill for removing the offending graffiti than the Tory Party.
Corruption and sleeze has been going on inside the Party for years but not to this extent.   From Cameron, Boris, Paterson and the others some outside reform is urgently needed to put an end to this type of thing

Mr Jones, from Rhos on Sea, who has represented Clwyd West since 2005, voted in favour of putting aside Paterson's suspension and reviewing the standards system.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/vandals-daub-corrupt-scum-graffiti-22096391 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/vandals-daub-corrupt-scum-graffiti-22096391)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on November 08, 2021, 05:11:46 pm
I wonder why?  Does Jones hold shares in Randox, like Paterson does?
I always suspected that these Covid testing companies and their prices were a complete scam.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 09, 2021, 09:28:31 am
What an example for a PM who cannot face Parliament when things go wrong!    Remember the Cobra meetings?
How come Boris is allowed  to walk around the hospital without wearing a mask?   Someone should explain why he was allowed to do so and Boris should also explain the reason too


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-slammed-parading-25410257 (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-boris-johnson-slammed-parading-25410257)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on November 14, 2021, 10:50:34 am
Print, Laminate and keep in wallet or purse for use when necessary.

[smg id=4159]
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 02, 2021, 10:51:33 am
It's unbelievable just how hypocritical this present Tory Government is and they seem unaccountable to anyone.    If the same situation happened in another country then the Tories would be the first to call the country corrupt.
So many bad examples in one party and the excuses they give are just a farce.    Cummings " he did it with integrity"     Johnson not wearing a masc in hospital  " no rules were broken "        Johnson having parties over Christmas with 40 to 50 people present when it wasn't allowed for the rest of us and then saying " no rules were broken"
That's without all the tax avoidance,  extra jobs,   Covid deals for the Tory party funders etc etc  it really does stink but they still get away with it           
       $angry2$
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 02, 2021, 06:50:01 pm
Because until now Labour didn't have a viable alternative leader.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Fester on December 02, 2021, 08:32:37 pm
This Xmas party scandal is an absolute outrage.
But Downing St don’t even want to comment on it.
Just when I thought my loathing of politicians couldn’t get any worse, this crops up!

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on December 02, 2021, 08:48:16 pm
Once again peppa pig doesn't think he's done wrong, but it was ok to hand out £10 k fines to other people.  😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 08, 2021, 07:20:28 pm
Things are starting to go downhill for this governmen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7A4haViFek)t–I hope.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BrianP on December 08, 2021, 09:13:50 pm
Just what does the PM have to do before he has to go.? Enough is enough.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on December 08, 2021, 09:57:17 pm
Just 12 months ago the first Covid jab was given  ... now look how many of this country's people have had not one,  not two, but three jabs to try and keep us safe.  Isn't that a fantastic achievement by the government to administer this along with the everyone in the NHS  ... oh sorry if that upsets you as I am praising Boris and his team.

All we hear from the other lot is criticism, bad mouthing, sniping and in cahoots with the media scraping the bottom of the barrel for scraps of sleaze.  Destructive not constructive.

The government comprises over 600 individuals ...wouldn't it be far more beneficial it they all pulled together to concentrate on the current problems, instead of fighting each other like two rival teams in a cup final.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 09, 2021, 10:02:02 am
Just 12 months ago the first Covid jab was given  ... now look how many of this country's people have had not one,  not two, but three jabs to try and keep us safe.  Isn't that a fantastic achievement by the government to administer this along with the everyone in the NHS  ... oh sorry if that upsets you as I am praising Boris and his team.

That's only part of the story, the Tories were totally unprepared for anything like this pandemic.      So short of PPE equipment that they made lucrative deals with Tory funded companies without putting the requirements out to tender which would be the normal practise.
Did Boris not say "who cares when the bodies really are piled high in their thousands?" as he didn't want another lockdown
What matters is whether the prime minister delayed the first lockdown, and indeed the second and the third ones, simply because he is so ideologically opposed to the idea of them.
The vaccinations programme was excellent until it stalled and now it's on catch up mode because of the new variant.

Even the most ardent Tory supporter cannot deny that Boris is an out and out liar, in fact he's made a career out of telling lies.   The newspaper he worked for sacked him for making up false stories for the paper.   He lied as Mayor of London and while campaigning for Brexit and now he's lying about the Party they had at No10 Downing Street.      No 10 is not exactly Buckingham Palace is it and Boris lives in the recently redecorated upstairs flat so it's inconceivable that he didn't know what was going on downstairs
Lies,  sleeze, corruption and industrial style tax avoidance is rife in the Tory Party but they still seem to get away with it

One thing I tend to agree with you is that this Covid pandemic is more important than party politics and a committee of sorts from all the leading political parties should have been set up immediately.      The four countries of the UK should have acted in unison so as to avoid the irresponsible way the England alone has acted



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 09, 2021, 10:40:54 am
Just 12 months ago the first Covid jab was given  ... now look how many of this country's people have had not one,  not two, but three jabs to try and keep us safe.  Isn't that a fantastic achievement by the government to administer this along with the everyone in the NHS  ... oh sorry if that upsets you as I am praising Boris and his team.

Fair enough, DVT, but I suspect the amazing initial success of the Covid vaccination programme was down mostly to two things: the fact that we were the first in the world to produce a vaccine, which was the sole responsibility of the research team at Oxford. The other factor was the sterling commitment by the NHS nationally to deliver the rollout in such a short time frame.

Johnson, however, as can be seen from the Covid timeline (http://www.threetownsforum.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4397.0.html), missed the first four COBRA meetings set up specifically to address the threat, went on holiday in Mid-Feb as the crisis around the world was gaining momentum and only deigned to finally attend a COBRA meeting on March 2nd.

On the Johns Hopkins world map of Covid deaths and illnesses, the UK is still experiencing more deaths than any other European country and is exceeded internationally only by the extreme right wing Brazil, and the larger population countries India, Russia and the US.

Quote
All we hear from the other lot is criticism, bad mouthing, sniping and in cahoots with the media scraping the bottom of the barrel for scraps of sleaze.  Destructive not constructive.

By 'the other lot' I assume you mean Her Majesty's Opposition, which currently comprises the SNP, Liberals, Labour and a scattering of smaller parties. In the UK the media, for the most part, backs the Tories, so if they're looking for issues around Johnson I think it's safe to assume it's the Tories who are leaking it.

I agree it would be nice if all the parties could work together  but that's never going to happen in a democracy with such an outdated electoral system. And the Tories have a long track record of attacking their own leaders.

Johnson has proved himself incompetent, lazy, a practised liar and a coward; and I would say we are not where we are in vaccination terms because of him, but in spite of him.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 18, 2021, 03:03:22 pm
Brian Reade of the Daily Mirror produced an interesting Christmas quiz in today's paper.    It would be ideal for Christmas Parties or even an online zoom party.     
Tory supporters will be handicapped as they should already know the answers
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 11, 2022, 03:29:22 pm
Welsh health minister says latest Downing Street party claim 'defies belief'
The Prime Minister is facing difficult questions after an email invitation allegedly invited more than 100 Downing Street staff to an evening gathering during lockdown             $drink$          $drink$



https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/welsh-health-minister-says-latest-22712402 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/welsh-health-minister-says-latest-22712402)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on January 11, 2022, 03:58:14 pm
If Boris wasn't such a clown he would either come out and carry on lying and say he wasn't at any so called party, or for once tell the truth and admit he was there, also the met police have a lot to answer as you cannot get in/out of Downing Street back or front without their say so, I just hope this Sue Grey inquiry won't end up being a coverup. 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 11, 2022, 04:56:59 pm
If Sue Grey is a Conservative then what do you think Norman?            &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on January 11, 2022, 05:31:43 pm
Well she reports to Gove so let's wait and see.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on January 12, 2022, 11:10:15 am
Ian Blackford asked a good question in yesterdays debate---- Did she attend any of the "gatherings" as they were called ?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 12, 2022, 02:36:48 pm
Did Ian Blackford get an answer Mull?         

It must be nice when you have a job and you are encouraged to bring a bottle to work       &shake&
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on January 12, 2022, 02:54:22 pm
Watching PMQs today Boris and his front bench cronies are laughing at the public, could anyone imagine any work place allowing drinks to be brought in to the workplace, drinking in the workplace is a sackable offence. It is also disgusting that the met police didn't notice all the booze going in.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BrianP on January 12, 2022, 05:33:43 pm
Saying you made a mistake, does not excuse Boris or any other person present at the party in May. The Met have to prosecute and Boris should resign.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 12, 2022, 06:53:41 pm
I agree, but when the Home Secretary works for you, and controls the police, what chance of any prosecution?

Johnson wasn't really apologising, either; or if he was, it was for getting caught. And it's worth remembering he's been forced into this, as nothing would have emerged had the Tories and his own staff not started leaking memos and emails.

But Johnson is lazy.  That's more or less at the root of all this. He thinks lying is fine, believing no one will ever find out. He was sacked for repeatedly lying in the Times, he was sacked in 2008 for lying about an affair (you may well ask which one?) and it seems lying is a default position for him.

He avoids dealing with issues by going missing. Why, for example, did he not attend the first five COBRA meetings at the outset of the pandemic? It's fairly mind boggling that he's survived this long.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 14, 2022, 09:12:03 am
Boris Johnson's staff accused of more rule-breaking parties inside No 10


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59989946 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59989946)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 21, 2022, 11:13:54 am
Seems as though the egregious Johnson would be in trouble (https://metro.co.uk/2022/01/19/woman-who-tried-boris-johnsons-downing-street-party-defence-fined-15946206/) were it not for the fact that the Met won't dare lay a finger on the PM or the cabinet...


Title: Re: National politics....'North-South divide'
Post by: SteveH on February 28, 2022, 05:03:32 pm
In an answer to a written question from Clwyd West MS Darren Millar, a Labour minister confirmed that just 19 per cent of the programme’s funds ended up in the six counties in North Wales.

The region received a total of £44,908,197 – while £40.2million was spent in the Swansea Council area alone.

The most-spent in a single northern council was £12.5m in Denbighshire, followed by £10.6m in Wrexham.

Meanwhile, South Wales received £152,557,532 – accounting for 65 per cent of the budget.

The remaining £37,399,621 (16%) per centwent to four counties in Mid and West Wales.

It means North Wales councils received, on average, less than those in anywhere else in the nation; its average was £7.5m, while for South Wales councils, it was £12.7m, and £9.4m in those in the Mid and West.

cont https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/19957245.ms-condemns-north-south-divide-north-wales-receives-19-per-cent-labours-town-fund/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/19957245.ms-condemns-north-south-divide-north-wales-receives-19-per-cent-labours-town-fund/)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on February 28, 2022, 07:27:40 pm
Just proves what a lot of folk have been saying for years.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 03, 2022, 03:27:50 pm
MPs will get a £2,212 pay rise on 1 April, seeing an MP's basic salary go up to £84,144 a year.

The 2.7% rise will come in the same week that millions of workers see their wages hit by a National Insurance increase.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer have both said MPs should not get a rise this year.

But their pay is set by an independent body, which says it should be in line with other public sector workers.

MPs' pay was frozen last year due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Richard Lloyd, chairman of Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Ipsa), which sets salaries, said: "This is the first increase in pay for MPs in two years and follows the average of increases across the public sector last year.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60576639 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60576639)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on March 19, 2022, 06:52:03 pm
In his speech to the Conservative spring conference in Blackpool, Boris Johnson said it is the “instinct of the people of this country, like the people of Ukraine, to choose freedom”, with the Brexit vote a “famous recent example”.

The comparison was condemned by Tory peer Lord Barwell, who pointed out Ukraine is seeking to join the EU.

Writing on Twitter, he said: “Apart from the bit where voting in a free and fair referendum isn’t in any way comparable with risking your life to defend your country against invasion + the awkward fact the Ukrainians are fighting for the freedom to join the EU, this comparison is bang on.”

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey said the Prime Minister “is a national embarrassment”, adding: “To compare a referendum to women and children fleeing (Vladimir) Putin’s bombs is an insult to every Ukrainian.

SNP Westminster leader Ian Blackford said: “Boris Johnson’s comments comparing Ukraine’s life-threatening situation with Brexit was crass and distasteful, and shows just how dangerously obsessed the Tories are with Brexit.”
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on May 10, 2022, 12:27:21 pm
Plans to increase the number of politicians in the Senedd by more than half have been unveiled.

It would mean the Welsh Parliament going up to 96 members, a rise of 36.

There have been calls to expand the Senedd to cope with its increasing workload, and it would be the first change in size since it opened in 1999.

The plans, which include proposals to boost the number of women elected, have been set out by Labour and Plaid Cymru, although Conservatives are opposed.

It had previously been estimated in 2020 that another 30 Members of the Senedd (MSs) would cost an extra £12m.      &shake&

But the Welsh Liberal Democrats said the proposals fell short of a democracy "fit for Wales" and accused the parties of rushing them out.

Meanwhile Conservative Welsh Secretary Simon Hart criticised how much it may potentially cost.         &shake&

The plans will need to be agreed by two-thirds of the Welsh Parliament, but with Labour and Plaid having the numbers to get the plan through the Senedd, it is highly likely to happen.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-61392204)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on May 25, 2022, 08:04:42 pm
[smg id=4166]


RIP Sue Grey...
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 11, 2022, 01:09:51 pm
Boris' ideas seem to get barmier by the day.  First the bridge from the UK to Ireland ( now scrapped )       

Then transporting the illegal migrants to Rwanda for their asylum applications to be processed   (  over 10,000 illegal migrants entered the UK in 2022?  )

Now raising the age from 18 to 21 for people to buy cigarettes   ( People can go into the Armed Services and get married at 18 so it's a bit insulting to those young people who may be affected if the law was to go through )

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the two by-elections that are going to be held in the UK later in June
Title: Re: Welsh National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 04, 2022, 10:35:40 am
Proposals to reform the Senedd have been overwhelmingly adopted by Welsh Labour at a special recall conference.

The conference in Cardiff Bay agreed with plans that will see the number of Senedd members increase from 60 to 96.

Members backed the move by 75.64%, with 24.36% voting against the proposals.

However, the method by which Senedd members would be elected had sparked controversy amongst the party.

The ?closed list system? had been opposed by some Labour branches, while it had also been discounted by an expert panel that examined potential electoral reform back in 2017.

Any change to the Senedd's electoral system need to be backed by two thirds of members. Mark Drakeford had agreed the package of proposals with Plaid Cymru. The changes are intended to be made in time for the next Senedd election in 2026.

It is likely to dramatically change the face of Welsh politics ? marking Welsh elections as markedly different from those held in the other countries of the UK and from how those of the first 23 years of Welsh devolution were conducted.

cont  https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/20253305.welsh-labour-overwhelmingly-agrees-senedd-expansion-plans/
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 06, 2022, 10:31:07 pm
There were 42 resignations ( up to half an hour ago anyway )  and Michael Gove AKA  "The Snake"  sacked
Ah well.  just another day at the office


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62073049


Boris Johnson met Russian oligarch Lebedev without aides  and later made his son a member of the House of Lords :o

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62068421
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on July 07, 2022, 11:44:35 am
I reckon much more corruption will be discovered when he has departed, the sooner the better. I suggest a one way ticket to North Korea for Boris.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2022, 06:29:27 pm
The seventh of July should become a public holiday. Today is when the Eton educated, practised liar, brazen charlatan and utterly dishonest flim-flam man was subject to a long overdue removal. He should never have been elected but that?s a matter for the consciences of Tory party members everywhere. But for the moment?enjoy.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on July 07, 2022, 07:11:51 pm
Worth Watching! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yplySVr2JSs)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BrianP on July 07, 2022, 09:25:51 pm
I am sick of members of the public, stating that Boris has done so many good things as our PM. The facts are Brexit was a shambles, track and trace cost a fortune and was not fit for purpose and 20, 000 people died in Care Homes, when hospitals were emptied without testing for Covid. If that is success, I would hate failure.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2022, 02:09:07 pm
You are correct in everything you have said about Boris and you could have added a lot more on to that list as well.    Billions of pounds have been wasted on PPE fraud and cronyism and I seem to remember Boris' younger brother Jo was either in or going in to a firm that supplied PPE's to the NHS
181,000 Covid deaths and his contempt for the rule of law will not be forgotten by the majority of UK people as well as the fact that he lied to the Queen, to Parliament and to the people of the UK.        He is a compulsive liar and that's not a legacy to be proud of
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on July 08, 2022, 03:22:01 pm
Hugo have you seen the invoice for the refurb of the flat. It?s shocking over ?200 K,  that will be dirty money 😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2022, 05:22:10 pm
It leaves a bad taste thinking about that refurbishment Norman  and doesn't say much for Boris' taste in design either.

Just a thought and I'm surprised that the journalists didn't ask it   Just who paid for the suitcase full of booze that they bought for the Party at No 10?        It couldn't have been the taxpayers,  could it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: BrianP on July 08, 2022, 05:53:09 pm
Boris wants to have a Wedding at Chequers, who does he think will pay for it?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 08, 2022, 11:18:48 pm
Boris Johnson forced to move wedding party from Chequers after backlash from taxpayers
The pair married in May last year during the coronavirus pandemic, however due to restrictions on numbers it was a limited celebration
.
Perhaps the celebrations will now not go ahead seeing that he will have to pay for it himself


https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-wedding-chequers-carrie-27428959
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on July 09, 2022, 10:12:55 am
I went to have my hair cut yesterday and Linzi, my hairdresser, was talking about the shenanigans over Boris's departure. We were discussing his finances and I told her that he claims he cannot live on his Prime Minister's salary of c?185,000 per year. She wondered why he needed so much money and we speculated it could be for child maintenance. It would be interesting to know how much that costs him. In a newspaper article he was described as "sexually incontinent". That just about sums it up. He has no morals, no integrity and no control.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 09, 2022, 11:09:51 am
Does anyone know how many children Boris has ?           I don't think that he even knows the number of children he has fathered.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bri Roberts on July 09, 2022, 02:03:52 pm
and if he told you, Hugo, would you believe him?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SAJ on July 09, 2022, 03:31:20 pm
?..and if the recent falls from grace were not enough, I?ve just seen the BBC website news item about Andrea Jenkyns, new education minister who was photographed ?giving the finger? to those gathered outside Downing Street just prior to the Boris? resignation speech. There?s an example to set!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on July 12, 2022, 11:40:32 am
Boris has 7 children which we know about. He had 4 by his ex wife, Marina Wheeler, 2 by Carrie, and an illegitimate child by Helen McIntyre. We can speculate as to how many others there may be given his promiscuous nature.

His first marriage was to Allegra Mostyn-Owen. They met at Oxford and married in 1987. The marriage was annulled in 1993. There were said to be no children.

Second marriage to Marina Wheeler was in 1993, divorced in 2018 or thereabouts. There were four children: Lara Lettice, Milo Arthur, Cassia Peaches and Theodore Apollo.

He had a relationship with Helen MacIntyre, a journalist, and she had a daughter, Stephanie, with him. She was born in 2009.

He married Carrie in 2021 and has two children with her, Wilfred and Romy.

https://www.hellomagazine.com/healthandbeauty/mother-and-baby/20211213128898/boris-johnson-family-wives-and-children/

Articles printed in Private Eye suggest there may be many, many, more children.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on July 12, 2022, 03:44:16 pm
There was another article in the Daily Mirror yesterday about Boris and that he abused his power to have a sexual relationship with a young woman in 2008    He was Lord Mayor of London at the time
He even tried to get her a job in City Hall but that was blocked by someone who was aware of his inappropriate relationship with the woman
At the time in 2008 he was married to Marina Wheeler.     
Title: Re:Welsh National politics
Post by: SteveH on July 13, 2022, 10:21:08 am
Economy Minister Vaughan Gething on tourism taxes, holiday home rules and Brexit
The minister was in North Wales and defended moves to add taxes and rules on the tourism sector

Economy Minister Vaughan Gething spoke about Brexit, tourism taxes and freeports in an interview with Business Post

Read more/full article  https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/economy-minister-vaughan-gething-tourism-24473318?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589#comments-wrapper
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 14, 2022, 04:50:32 pm
Ex-foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt confirmed as Chancellor after shock Kwasi Kwarteng sacking
Mr Kwarteng had flown back from Washington early today and was driven to 10 Downing Street to meet with Liz Truss

I wonder who will be the next PM after this farce?


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/ex-foreign-secretary-jeremy-hunt-25264152
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on October 14, 2022, 06:59:53 pm
Hugo I read hunts Cv from when he was health sec. Not a good read, god help us with him. Been said he can?t count his fingers😂😂
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on October 14, 2022, 07:59:26 pm
All that fuss about Boris's indiscretions pale into insignificance compared to the last few weeks.

What are the odds on Boris being PM again? !!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on October 15, 2022, 11:35:44 am
I wouldn't put my money on Boris. It would be on Rishi Sunak, or Ben Wallace. I cannot fathom how they can have the arrogance to decide on yet another one of their mediocre candidates and not call for a general election. Then they are aware they would lose if it went to the country. There should be some legislation to cover these eventualities, ie when one PM is deposed without a general election having taken place. It is unlawful to appoint another one on the basis of the votes of a tiny number of people, then to have the incomer deciding to allow the loony right wing think tanks to run the country. No doubt the Tory donors and supporters will have done nicely out of the pound being shorted. I would like to know how much money they have made at our expense.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 19, 2022, 11:01:01 pm
Just another day at the office!     The Home Secretary was sacked and then the Tory Chief Whip resigned but then unresigned.     What a fine mess Liz has got us in to, you couldn't make this farce up


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/house-commons-descends-chaos-fracking-25306932
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on October 20, 2022, 02:54:52 pm
Just 44 days and the PM has resigned, perhaps it is time for a General Election?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Bri Roberts on October 21, 2022, 03:35:53 am
That will be like turkeys voting for Xmas, Hugo.

Btw, I knew 44 days rang a bell somewhere in our distant past.

Clough replaced Allan Brown as manager of Nottingham Forest on 6 January 1975, just over sixteen weeks after the end of his 44-day tenure as manager of Leeds United.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on October 22, 2022, 02:53:13 am
Did you know 10 Downing Street can be booked on Air B & B ?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on October 22, 2022, 09:15:32 am
Another CATastrophe.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on October 22, 2022, 10:22:41 am
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on October 22, 2022, 10:24:20 am
DVT, Excellent      _))*
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 05, 2022, 03:49:14 pm
Boris Johnson accepts nearly 25K in accommodation for his family from Tory billionaire      JCB boss Lord Bamford and his wife previously stumped up ?23,853 for Mr Johnson's wedding party in July, footing the bill for portable toilets, flowers, a South African barbecue and an ice cream van.
I wonder if Boris will be paying Income Tax or CGT on all his freebies?         Corruption is still rife in the Conservative Party


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-accepts-nearly-25k-28410041
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hammy on November 05, 2022, 08:05:46 pm
Hmm, anybody else would be clobbered with 'Benefit in Kind' income tax penalties. I used to have staff who were regularly working from home and having hotel bills paid by the company and HMRC were chasing them.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 06, 2022, 11:45:47 am
HMRC do chase the working class people, hairdressers, workers in the hospitality industry and other groups are taxed on estimated tips and have those "benefits" coded in.
Who keeps an eye on people like Boris who continue to get benefits in kind from their Tory friends and on a greater scale than the average person gets?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on November 07, 2022, 11:00:15 am
The tax system is unfair and unjust in this country. It favours the rich and targets the people who are in middle, or lower, incomes. There is a department within the HMRC which deals specifically with MPs, Cabinet Ministers, the royals who pay tax and other senior public officials (Civil Service etc). Boris's tax would be dealt with by this section. He would be taxable on his benefits but bear in mind these are from third parties and not given to him by his employer, see:

https://www.gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-third-party-awards/what-to-report-and-pay

The person giving him the benefit is required to account for the tax to HMRC. It would be interesting to know whether any of the people who have stumped up for him have paid the tax in respect of their largesse. I wouldn't bet on them having paid anything over.

HMRC tend to target the businesses and people who are easy to investigate. These tend to be pubs, newsagents, guest houses, restaurants, taxis etc. The big boys are left alone as they take up too much time and resources. The more complex cases are dealt with by a special unit but their resources are limited and they only select a small number of cases to investigate. I doubt Boris will be pursued and will be just another high profile person who evades tax with impunity.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2022, 04:35:59 pm
That was an interesting fact that the third party had to deduct tax from those benefits as I had not heard of that before.    As Boris' tax bill would mainly be at 45% I suppose that the benefits and deductions would appear on his Self Assessment return.      The people checking his returns would be aware that Boris has made a career out of telling lies so alarm bells should ring loudly there.

Up to about 1976 MP's had traditionally been classed as self employed but in C 1976 the Government of the day introduced a Class 4 NIC.
This Class 4 NIC was in fact a levy on the self employed and was applied when the Self Employed person's profits exceeded a certain amount.   In fact it was an additional way of raising money
However and probably for the only time ever, the MP'S agreed on one thing and said that they were not self employed but in fact were employees.       I'm not sure if a PAYE scheme was set up for them and the employer (The Government ) deducted tax and NIC from their MP's salary
I do know that they all have to complete Self Assessment returns

The situation regarding MP's pay has not cropped up yet but it usually follows that of other pay increases.    Quite often their increase are above the rate of  inflation and they try and justify it by saying that an independent pay board had awarded them the rise
The Tories have proved without a doubt that you can't trust MP's and Bankers and Building Developers are on the same level as the Tories
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on November 07, 2022, 08:17:40 pm
Why is Boris Johnson in Sham  El Shaky ?

Who is behind his attendance, Who is he representing , and who is paying ?
He has no reason to be there and how much CO2 was used to get him there and back.

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 07, 2022, 10:45:53 pm
Apparently he was invited there, by whom nobody seems to know.     It wasn't by the UK Government so who foots his bill this time?
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on November 08, 2022, 11:06:13 am
I wouldn't bet on every benefit and freebie being shown on Boris's tax return. We know about some of them but there must be others that have been kept quiet.

MPs are treated similarly to senior civil servants and paid from the same pot. They are under a special tax department within HMRC. People working in it need a high security clearance to be able to work there. It is understood that the MPs etc are given kid glove treatment and that tax rules are very flexible for them.

This post says that he was, "invited by the organisers" to attend the COP 27 summit:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63478120

Could he be the same as Charles and his, "charities" receiving bags of cash from the Arabs?

Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 08, 2022, 12:11:52 pm
I don't think that even the staunchest Tory would believe that Boris' Tax Returns were honest and true, but as you say these people are treated with kid gloves.   
On the TV today it said that Boris had over 100 backers in the recent PM election but chose not to put his name forward on the advice of his financial advisors.    Apparently he makes so much money as an ex PM now but if he challenged and lost the election the advisors alleged that his income would be halved
His lies and deception seem to be on an industrial scale and one day the truth may be revealed
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 13, 2022, 01:05:02 pm
I came across this article on line (see below)and it's just unsustainable and an insult to any of the UK population that are struggling with money at this present moment.
Jeremy Hunt is expected to announce cuts in the public sector on Thursday and I really hope that he makes cuts in the estimated 2 billion pounds a year it costs to keep these illegal migrants in the UK

People also ask
How much do asylum seekers get per day in the UK?
You'll get ?40.85 for each person in your household. This will help you pay for things you need like food, clothing and toiletries. Your allowance will be loaded onto a debit card (ASPEN card) each week. You'll be able to use the card to get cash from a cash machine.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on November 13, 2022, 06:23:14 pm
Hugo, they are Asylum seekers until there applications have been dealt with which is not an illegal state until your application has been declined.
At least 75% of applications are agreed and half of those declined are granted on appeal.

The problem is the government own making,  ie, slow processing of applications. Speed it up and they could enter the labour market and help to fill the many vacancies available and pay for themselves . They are only allowed to do this after the application is succesfull.

No way playing King Canute, the tide will keep coming in. What we need to do is deal with the problem in a sensible and calm way.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on November 14, 2022, 10:12:24 am
UK strikes revised deal with France on Channel migrants

The UK will pay France ?8m more a year under a revised deal to try to stop people crossing the English Channel in small boats.

Under the updated agreement, UK police officers will be embedded with their French counterparts in control rooms and on beaches.

The number of officers patrolling the French coast to try to stop people setting off will rise from 200 to 300.

PM Rishi Sunak said he was "confident we can bring the numbers down".

But, speaking to reporters whilst travelling to the G20 summit in Bali, he warned there was no "single thing" that could be done to "fix" the situation.

The government is under increasing pressure over Channel crossings, with the number of people making the journey rising to record levels.

More than 40,000 people have crossed in small boats so far this year, up from 28,526 last year and 8,404 the year before.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63615653
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2022, 10:59:15 am
Mull,  no matter how you wish to address these migrants they are all illegal migrants.     They have all entered the UK illegally and are not asylum seekers or refugees or they would have claimed asylum in any one of the safe 27 countries in the EU
As for the mass invasion of single Albanian men then there is no way, shape or form that you could describe them as asylum seekers.   They are not escaping from any conflict in Albania and they have to pass through many safe EU countries to get to the UK
The Albanian exodus has been helped by organised Albanian criminals and the Albanians are at best illegal economic migrants.    When you consider all the benefits we throw at them you can't blame them in a way as the average monthly pay in Albania is ?512.66.
They get more in the UK for not working than they do in Albania for working a full month
You have raised a very valid point that the UK and every other country too needs immigrants in our workforce but do you remember comments made by a habitual liar when the Brexit vote was ongoing?       Boris said "that ?350 million pounds would be paid to the NHS each week and that we could take control over our borders and chose who we decide to let in to the UK"
Well look what has happened and the mess we are in now

Steve's post about the co-operation with the French authorities is positive but I still believe that we should adopt an Australian type policy with the people who have arrived in the UK illegally
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on November 14, 2022, 11:55:41 am
So we are paying out millions for hotels.
The 200/300 employed to stop them getting in the boats and it is not working, they will keep coming.
Now if 200/300 could be employed in Dover to process them as they arrived it would speed things up and those not entitled to stay could be sent back within days, rather than be sent to a hotel and disappear without trace.

I have just seen a photo on Facebook of public school boys at Eton including Boris. The caption over it says " We have less to fear from the boat people invasion than the damage caused by Eton Old Boys."
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 14, 2022, 12:38:48 pm
It's a very difficult situation to sort out as they are dealing with the lives of people and not commodities but something drastic needs to be done          It was noticeable when the Tories talked about sending the migrants to Rwanda that there was a drop in the number of migrants coming in, but just for a short time only
That idea was a no brainer anyway especially now that the number of migrants has increased

Ironically when the UK was in the EU  these migrants could have applied for asylum in any of the other safe 27 countries in the EU and that would have entitled them to come to the UK anyway

If the UK processed these migrants quickly and then decided that they did not have a valid reason to be here then they should be deported with no right of appeal.    That way the message would get across to any other migrants hoping to come here
The UK is a compasionate country and has helped refugees in the past as well as the present day Ukrainians. 
As it is now  there are over a 1000 cases in which these illegal migrants are suing the UK for compensation for being held in detention for longer that the legal time
What a shambles and not having a Government fit for purpose they might as well join Matt Hancock in the jungle for all the good they do
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on November 14, 2022, 06:46:31 pm
Hugo in 2021/2 uk gave France ?55 mill, in 2022   ?63 mill so far we have handed over ?175 mill, this new agreement going upto ?70+ mill,  on Saturday French police stood watching as 2 big full dinghies set off from the beach.    With the bad weather coming in it will ease off, you watch this shower will tell us their scheme is working.  😡
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2022, 11:04:53 am
I suppose it is a waste of money if the French do nothing to stop the migrants.    I have seen a photo of the French Police watching the boats set off and the boats were only in the water  by the shore.   A comment said that once the boats are in the water the Police are not allowed to do anything to stop them
Now what if the UK picked up these migrants and went back to France with them and dropped them off in the shallow waters, would the French do something about it then?     You bet they would
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on November 15, 2022, 12:50:56 pm
The whole thing is a disgrace, and I suspect any other political party would not do anything much different.

To spend so much, not just paying the French for doing nothing, but also the cost of accommodation and handouts is crippling this country.  Then we have to cater for any medical and education requirements as well.

Surely their only reason to risk their lives crossing the channel is due to this country being a soft touch, and you can see that with all the do-gooders that spout out on TV.

I do have some sympathy with the Urkainians, but surely they could settle in France, Germany or any of the other Euro countries.

There are many British residents who are far more deserving.

Whatever happened to the saying CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME ?



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on November 15, 2022, 01:54:56 pm
Well said DVT and I expect that most people share your views

The Ukrainians have a valid case because of the war there but they are mainly women and children and they hope to return to Ukraine when it is safe to do so.     The others are mainly single men and economic migrants at best and should be treated as such
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on November 15, 2022, 03:35:37 pm
The thing is DVT the Ukraine people don?t want to be here or anywhere else they are so proud of their country that?s why many have stayed and many have gone back,  and they are not only in the uk but all over Europe, Poland have welcomed the most.    Spoken to a few families and they are lovely,  can?t wait to get back home.
Title: Re: National politics....Government's new measures to help tackle bird flu
Post by: SteveH on December 05, 2022, 10:32:48 am
BIRD keepers are being reminded about new compulsory biosecurity and housing measures to further protect their birds against bird flu (avian influenza).

Last week, the Welsh Government announced new measures were being put in place as surveillance of the flu 'suggests a heightened risk of disease for Wales over the winter months'.

These steps build extra resilience to the important measures introduced in October through the Wales Avian Influenza Prevention Zone.

As of Friday, December 2, all bird keepers must keep their birds indoors or otherwise separated from wild birds.

cont https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/23169533.governments-new-measures-help-tackle-bird-flu/

Title: Re: National politics...........?460m package announced
Post by: SteveH on December 12, 2022, 10:23:26 am
?460m package announced in bid to help Welsh businesses with spiralling costs
The support will be spread over the next two financial years

All businesses in Wales will get new rates support from the Welsh Government to help with the effects of rising costs, it's been announced. A package of support worth more than ?460m over the next two financial years will be announced in the Welsh Government?s upcoming draft Budget.

Senedd chiefs say it will provide a boost to businesses across Wales which are struggling to cope with the impacts of high inflation and surging energy costs. It operates in addition to permanent relief schemes from the Welsh Government which are already providing ?240m of relief to ratepayers across Wales this year.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/460m-package-announced-bid-help-25726975?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2023, 09:01:12 pm
Westminster Accounts: MPs earn ?17.1m on top of their salaries since the last election - with Tories taking ?15.2m
This says it all, roll on 2025


https://news.sky.com/story/westminster-accounts-mps-earn-17-1m-on-top-of-their-salaries-since-the-last-election-with-tories-taking-15-4m-12758768
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 09, 2023, 11:03:03 am
Not only are they raking it in with second jobs but they aren't capable of running anything involving money. It now transpires that ?1 billion of public money has been "lost" (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/finance/news/destination-1bn-government-cash-spent-090554493.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJgbfwCm9qSossFIOgjmNc5Hzcgew3twbBhTBXwZnY5Rytcw8y-YFkYhBIV02zHOerHH03JRo6aZI33Nb9WxubQDdjYI31qnwNYnklH4yyPXl0v6LLlD_KhHJ7PeU8Pb-1at6_rX6b5uh83tZ9FJTsd_tLD9oB3Fwb26GF64yiI_) as they don't know where ?1 billion in grants has disappeared to. These were made to increase participation in sports after the Olympic Games in London. Has anyone seen ?1 billion?

In view of the Tories claim to be astute business people, it would be interesting to know just how much money has been lost due to projects that never happened. The Garden Bridge was one of them, the costs were ?53 million:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47228698

The bridge over Scotland to Ireland cost ?900,000 https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/20/research-into-johnsons-planned-irish-sea-bridge-cost-taxpayers-900000

Then there were the PPE contracts handed out to their cronies, cost?? Fraud on Covid loans to business and many more.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-spending-taxpayers-cash-with-28193338
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 09, 2023, 12:27:13 pm
It just stinks Helig, there is no other word for it.    It's fraud on an industrial scale.     Ever heard the phrase by the Tories  " We're all in it together"    Don't believe a word of it as it's us and them

The ordinary worker on Paye like hairdressers, postmen,  people in the hospitality industry etc etc pay tax on any tips they get yet a career liar like Boris gets all the perks going tax free.     Last I heard about him was that he was "sofa surfing" well not as we know it but staying in friends houses or mansions as he didn't have a place to live in.    I wish that HMRC would investigate tax evasion more
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 10, 2023, 10:04:26 am
I agree Hugo, HMRC are doing less and less investigation work these days. I think it is political as the Tories don't like their cronies to be investigated. This started with Thatcher who ran down what was the Inland Revenue as the working conditions became intolerable and very many people left. Even when investigations were the flavour of the month, the big boys were left untouched as they didn't have the time, or resources, to take them on. Just a minority of large cases were tackled but this was by specialist teams in regional offices. Of those, even the cases where there was massive fraud, just a tiny number were prosecuted.

These days there is less interest in tackling investigation work and the tax loss must be enormous. It is a different story with people who claim benefits fraudulently as they are prosecuted frequently. As you say, it is us and them.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 10, 2023, 04:31:16 pm
Helig, you are spot on with your comments about HMRC  but I can assure you that the situation is worse than you can imagine,
Just imagine if HMRC called in Boris for an interview, he is so dishonest it's unbelievable what he's got away with.   I don't believe even a top HMRC  official could unravel fact from fiction

Do you remember when David Cameron was launching a tirade of abuse at Jimmy Carr for using a tax avoidance scheme, yet his own Chancellor George Osborne was doing the same thing and allegedly  avoided paying ?2 million pounds in UK tax.    If it's wrong morally or otherwise just close all the loopholes

Another brain child of the Tories was to abolish the paper road tax discs,  I can imagine them saying that that action saves the UK ? 10 million pounds every year.   Perhaps it did but according to the RAC and other motoring bodies the UK loses over ?100 million pounds every year through road tax evasion/     The DVLA is not fit for purpose as a debt recovery office and as a result millions, if not billions of pounds have been lost to the Exchequer
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hammy on January 10, 2023, 05:27:32 pm
I do believe however that the use of ANPR cameras (mobile and fixed like the two at Glan Conwy and Craig y don) are probably more effective at fining the vehicle licence dodgers than Plod on the beat ever was, based on the number of people that I now know have been picked up by them, quite a few where they were taking untaxed vehicles for MOT!
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 11, 2023, 09:41:23 am
Hammy, the advantage of the paper tax discs was that they were a visible deterrent to road tax dodgers,   The Police, Traffic Wardens and the general public could see straight away if the car's tax was out of date
Traffic Wardens would check the times of cars parking and view the tax disc at the same and if the car tax was out of date then the Wardens or Police could issue a penalty notice.

The present system is seriously flawed, why else would the Exchequer be short of well over ?100 million pounds in unpaid road tax each year?       The advancement of IT means that we can never go back to the previous paper system but the rules and regulations should be updated in order to cope with these dishonest people.
You mention ANPR cameras, well these are the facts:-   
There are only 4 Police Traffic cars fitted with the ANPR cameras in the whole of North Wales
The whole length of the A55 does not have one ANPR or even the Vulture camera on it.   The cameras you see are all speed cameras ( info supplied to me by the NWP )
The cameras at Glan Conwy and Craig Y Don must be speed cameras only,    I cannot see them being ANPR camera as a Police car would have to be in position there 24/7 and that would not be viable

The only way to stop people driving without road tax is to seize their cars in order for them to stop doing it   But the problem in part rests with outdated rules and regulations.       For instance, even if the car is untaxed or has no MOT neither the Police or the DVLA can enter someone's garden or drive to seize the offending vehicle
It's utter nonsense
The DVLA should have other methods of enforcement such as Bailiffs and the County Court but are not effective in either enforcement apparently so we are stuck with a system that is leaking hundreds of millions of pounds each year and at a time when we can least afford it
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 11, 2023, 10:37:49 am
I agree that the change to paperless tax discs is costing the exchequer a substantial amount of money. There are few, or no, ANPR cameras in Scotland, at least on the roads in Dumfries and Galloway. They don't have any speed cameras either. I think some of the police vehicles are fitted with these as someone told me he was stopped for not having an MOT. It turned out he had bought the car recently and the garage didn't give him one with it.

HMRC used to have an unofficial policy to go easy on MPs and government ministers (amongst other public officials and royals). I used to work with someone who was the head of the department (PD1) that dealt with the tax affairs of MPs, ministers, royals etc. He told me that they had special treatment and he leaked details of how one government minister (Tory) was allowed to get away with a massive tax evasion. Nothing happened to the minister but he was swiftly removed from PDI.

There would be people capable to taking on Boris but the political influence, or will, wouldn't permit it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 11, 2023, 10:38:31 am

The ordinary worker on Paye like hairdressers, postmen,  people in the hospitality industry etc etc pay tax on any tips they get yet a career liar like Boris gets all the perks going tax free.     Last I heard about him was that he was "sofa surfing" well not as we know it but staying in friends houses or mansions as he didn't have a place to live in.    I wish that HMRC would investigate tax evasion more

I've just read the Daily Mirror today and Boris Johnson is now living in a 20 million home for free
Inside is an article about Rishi Sunak's private jet trip to visit a Health care centre in Leeds, all at the taxpayer's expense,    Yes we're all in it together!   
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on January 12, 2023, 10:12:24 am
Interesting article

Denbighshire councillors sign letter urging income tax rise
COUNTY councillors in Denbighshire and Conwy have signed a letter from the Wales Green Party addressed to the Welsh First Minister, Mark Drakeford, appealing for an increase in income tax in the country.

Cllrs Jon Harland (Prestatyn Central ward) and Martyn Hogg (St Asaph East ward) of Denbighshire County Council were among the letter?s signatories.

Also signing the letter were party leader Anthony Slaughter, and his deputies, Ammi Kaur-Dhaliwal and Helen Westhead.

The Senedd has had powers granted to allow Wales to set its own rates of income tax since April 2019.

Full article https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/23244448.denbighshire-councillors-sign-letter-urging-income-tax-rise/
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 13, 2023, 10:59:32 am
Boris's latest freebie. It seems there are doubts about the true rental value of house he is staying in rent free. He has entered it is ?10,000 a month in the Register of Interests but a similar home is being offered for rent at ?30,000 a month. Will this be investigated I wonder?

He has his friend Lord Bamford (plus Lady Bamford) to thank for this. It is yet another benefit they have provided for him.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/shameless-boris-johnson-living-20m-28922635
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2023, 03:09:29 pm
Recently we have had a discussion on CCBC writing off money due to the ratepayers and I posted this comment  "Credit where credit is due so well done Cllr Mandy Hawkins for saying "This Section 106 money should absolutely not be discharged. It is, after all, a legally binding contract"
I also mentioned that Boris Johnson when he was Mayor of London waived an amount of money that the developer had agreed to pay in lieu of building affordable housing.   The link attached mentions the 25K that I spoke about in an earlier posting and shows what is going on in Tory politics

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/billionaire-brothers-boris-johnson-offices-162953081.html
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 20, 2023, 10:15:51 am
Welsh Government should fight for new investment zones
Welsh Ministers should fight hard to ensure that two of the four zones announced in the Budget come to Wales

While the headlines were about the improvements in childcare and changes to pension rules to bring more people back into the workplace, the measures with the potential to change the future of the UK economy were largely hidden in the small print. One of the positive highlights was the commitment to support growth in the sectors of the future. Whether this is another rehashed industrial strategy in all but name will be up to others to debate.

However, it was heartening to see a clear statement of intent to provide real and tangible support for advanced manufacturing, the creative industries, digital technologies, green industries, and life sciences. In particular, the admittance that the UK needs to invest more in research and innovation infrastructure, especially in improving computing capability to maximise opportunities in artificial intelligence and boost critical areas such as health and climate change, is long overdue.

The commitment to investing ?2.5 billion over the next decade into quantum technologies will also ensure that the UK develops a world class capability in one of the most important emerging sciences that has the capability to transform entire industries.

Whilst levelling-up remains a key part of the Government?s drive to spread economic prosperity to every part of the UK, it can be argued that much of the spending to date has been very much hit and miss, with no clear strategy as to how these funds will impact on improving productivity across the nation.

cont https://www.business-live.co.uk/opinion-analysis/welsh-government-should-fight-new-26494624?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 20, 2023, 02:10:24 pm
Boris Johnson's legal fees could cost taxpayer more than ?222,000, says top civil servant
The former PM is entitled to money from the public purse as he faces an investigation over whether he misled parliament about partygate, and he has already spent over ?200,000 on advice from lawyers.

I wonder if he is found guilty over misleading Parliament would Boris then have to pay his own solicitor's costs?


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-legal-fees-could-cost-taxpayer-more-than-222-000-says-top-civil-servant-12795939
Title: Re: National politics.....Historic cross-border meeting
Post by: SteveH on May 18, 2023, 09:52:17 am
STRENGTHENING North Wales? links with Ireland and North West England is vitally important to take advantage of new opportunities, First Minister Mark Drakeford will say today (May 18).

He will welcome the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham, the Mayor of the Liverpool City Region Steve Rotheram and Consul General of Ireland Denise McQuade for a historic meeting with Welsh Government ministers and local authority leaders in North Wales.

The visitors will have a chance to see the innovative work taking place at the advanced manufacturing facility, AMRC Cymru in Broughton, and to tour the Port of Mostyn to understand more about potential opportunities at the site and along the North Wales coast.

cont https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/23530398.historic-cross-border-meeting-set-strengthen-working-relations/
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Cambrian on May 18, 2023, 04:21:22 pm
A Damascene moment in the life of the First Minister ?  We may get through TfW trains to Crewe next and keep the Llandudno-Manchester service.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on May 19, 2023, 09:26:48 am
Metro Mayor?s hopes for cross-border force for good
The Liverpool City Region has the opportunity to create a ?real force for good? by strengthening ties with cross border partners in Wales and Ireland according to the area?s Metro Mayor.

Steve Rotherham said the North West, North Wales and Ireland can create a collective ?powerhouse? by forging lasting partnerships as he joined with ministers and officials for a meeting on how the three areas can strengthen their economic and cultural ties. Mr Rotheram alongside Andy Burnham ? Mayor of Greater Manchester ? met with First Minister of Wales Mark Drakeford and Lesley Griffiths MS, Minister for North Wales for a series of engagements and discussions on how to develop cross border relationships.

With Counsel General of Ireland, Denise McQuade, the panel held a press conference in Venue Cymru, Llandudno, outlining how they would look to move forward together. Mr Rotheram said the visit to North Wales built on the trip to Ireland he and Mr Burnham took in March last year and represented an opportunity to work more closely with the Welsh Government.

Acknowledging Liverpool?s cultural role as ?the second capital of North Wales,? Mr Rotheram said officials? eyes had been opened to the possibilities of collaborative work, through industries like advanced manufacturing and technology. The Metro Mayor said work on this scale between the North West and North Wales had never been done before and said it is ?the right time because devolution is much more embedded in the Liverpool City Region.?

cont https://www.birkenhead.news/metro-mayors-hopes-for-cross-border-force-for-good/?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589


Mark Drakeford says the 'let's build a road' attitude to solve road congestion can't continue in a climate emergency. The First Minister today held a meeting with political leaders from Ireland and the North West of England about strengthening economic connections between the nations and regions.

They highlighted the close relationship between North Wales the North West - with thousands travelling across the border each day - often leaving bottlenecks and congestion on key routes.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/mark-drakeford-says-lets-build-26944464
cont
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 16, 2023, 02:48:34 pm
Boris Johnson unveiled as new Daily Mail columnist

I'm sure that Ian will be pleased that Boris has joined his favourite newspaper the DFM



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65930008
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 16, 2023, 05:31:36 pm
Best place for a confirmed liar, cheat, coward and all round egotist.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2023, 10:08:20 am
When is a party not a party Boris?




https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65941549
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2023, 03:50:52 pm
The vote in the House of Commons tomorrow should be interesting, Michael Gove has already said that he will abstain from voting



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65941549
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: mull on June 18, 2023, 09:16:27 pm
Gove----- Shows what a coward he is.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on June 18, 2023, 10:53:41 pm
You're right Mull what a spineless wimp and to think that he once stood for election as the PM, talk about taking the Michael
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on June 19, 2023, 12:26:23 am
Part of the problem is that entire Tory cabinet was chosen because they supported Brexit. There are countless other Tories who didn't. and who could do a lot of good for the party,  given the chance.
Title: Re: Welsh National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 29, 2023, 10:08:05 am
8 laws the Welsh Government wants to make a reality in 2023
It wants to expand the Senedd, change how buses work in Wales and re-evaluate the council tax paid on 1.5 million properties

?This forthcoming year will have an unrelenting focus on reform to make positive changes in the lives of the people of Wales. This is an ambitious and radical programme of reform, which will modernise parts of our tax and electoral system, ensure we put the needs of looked-after children ahead of profits, and create a Senedd which reflects the Wales we live in today. Our reforms will transform bus services, giving people greater choice about how they travel, and help us towards our ambition of a million Welsh-speakers by 2050.?

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/8-laws-welsh-government-wants-27212221
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on June 30, 2023, 10:38:47 am
Welsh MP quits government to vote against Northern Ireland sex education law
The Northern Irish law would see pupils past primary school taught about access to abortion services and prevention of early pregnancy

A Welsh MP has quit his role as a ministerial aid so that he could vote against changes to sex education in Northern Ireland. Robin Millar , who is the Member of Parliament for Aberconwy said he ?could not in good conscience? vote to introduce the changes.

The changes to the curriculum would see pupils past primary school taught about access to abortion services and prevention of early pregnancy. Mr Millar said he could not support the update while helping Welsh parents with similar issues.

The MP had been serving as Parliamentary Private Secretary (PPS) to the Welsh Secretary, David TC Davies. He was amongst 20 Conservative MPs who voted against the measures. He quit before he voted against the government.

cont https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/welsh-mp-quits-government-vote-27227649?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on August 07, 2023, 03:43:38 pm
Nadine Dorries faces move to force her out of Parliament
Ms Dorries said she was standing down as the MP for Mid Bedfordshire in June but later said she would not formally resign until she got more information about why she was denied a peerage.
I wonder why she was denied a peerage, after all Boris gave one to his brother Jo and a knighthood to his Dad Stanley



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66427982
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on September 18, 2023, 10:15:40 am
Senedd: Cost of more Welsh politicians to be revealed

Estimates for the cost of electing 36 more politicians to the Senedd - likely to be more than ?12m a year - are to be published for the first time later.

Labour ministers will publish their plans to expand the Welsh Parliament, including more politicians and a new voting system, on Monday.

The changes, if ready in time, will take effect at the 2026 election.

The plans have the support of Plaid Cymru but are opposed by Welsh Conservatives, largely on cost grounds.

Up until now the Welsh government has not put a price tag on the reforms, which were drawn up between First Minister Mark Drakeford and Plaid Cymru's former leader Adam Price last year.

On Monday, the Senedd will see the legislation it will need to pass to agree the changes, which will increase the number of Members of the Senedd (MSs) from 60 to 96.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-66807278
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 01, 2023, 10:45:10 am
'No plans' to house asylum seekers at Pontins Prestatyn after site closes suddenly
Vale of Clwyd MP James Davies has been in touch with the Minister for Immigration Robert Jenrick


Really!!   if the Government says that then they wouldn't lie, would they?      From the Trip Advisor reports on Pontins that I have read
 I don't think that the migrants would want to swap a nice hotel for a stay at Pontins



https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/no-plans-house-asylum-seekers-28207015
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on December 07, 2023, 03:19:51 pm
Covid: Johnson blamed Welsh rates on singing and obesity, inquiry hears
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-67648161



Boris Johnson sings happy birthday while washing his hands        It ain't over till the fat lad(y) sings 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWfZGdLeDl4
Title: Re: National politics.......First Minister Mark Drakeford resigns
Post by: SteveH on December 14, 2023, 09:42:04 am
Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford has announced he's quitting after five years in the job.

Mr Drakeford will step down in March, with a new Welsh Labour leader due to be elected before Easter.

He told BBC Wales he wanted a new leader in place by the next Westminster general election.

But he denied the backlash over new 20mph speed limits across the country had anything to do with it.

Mr Drakeford, 69, who is the Cardiff West Member of the Senedd (MS), was confirmed as first minister exactly five years and one day ago.

He had planned to stand down in 2024 but the timing of his announcement was a surprise.

It comes a week before the Welsh government announces its spending plans for the next year, which ministers have warned will be "extremely difficult".

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67702232


PS
Drakeford resignation: Who will be Wales' next first minister?

There are two early front runners - Economy Minister Vaughan Gething and the Education Minister Jeremy Miles - but they have been facing difficulties of their own.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-67692529
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on December 16, 2023, 05:39:35 pm



Worth watching. although it has more swearing in than Downing Street:

Visit the UK! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sRoYvFTE3c Worth watching. although it has more swearing in than)
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on December 31, 2023, 09:49:45 am
Press release
Welsh Secretary highlights UK Government delivery in 2023
EnglishCymraeg
Secretary of State David TC Davies says that progress is being made in growing the economy and spreading jobs, prosperity and investment across Wales.

From:
Office of the Secretary of State for Wales and The Rt Hon David TC Davies MP
Published
29 December 2023

The UK Government has never been more active in its delivery for Wales than in 2023, Welsh Secretary David TC Davies has said.

In a New Year message, Mr Davies said that huge progress was being made in growing the economy and delivering major projects to spread jobs, prosperity and investment right across the country.

The UK Government has stepped up to invest in projects across the breadth of Wales, from Pembroke to Ynys M?n, Monmouthshire to Port Talbot ? with a relentless focus on empowering and improving communities and people?s opportunities.

Funding for levelling up in Wales has now reached ?2 billion. In 2023 the UK Government announced two Investment Zones and two Freeports alongside investing in dozens of projects the length and breadth of Wales aimed at restoring town centres, boosting infrastructure and enhancing tourism facilities.

David TC Davies said:     cont https://www.gov.uk/government/news/welsh-secretary-highlights-uk-government-delivery-in-2023?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 03, 2024, 11:11:11 pm
Statistics watchdog to examine government asylum backlog claims
Statistics can be manipulated in any way that you want them to be, like this has been done.
A TV reporter on ITV broke down the stats and explained how they are arrived at and it's just a joke.    If you are going to fiddle statistics then the system is pointless and the public should be told the truth



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67876860
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 04, 2024, 04:56:12 pm
Prime Minister gives update on when next General Election is likely to be this year
Rishi Sunak had been under pressure to call an early poll


https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/prime-minister-gives-update-next-28389946
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 08, 2024, 10:48:08 am
Millions care about this and are furious - ex-minister  Sir David Davis, who will try to question ministers about the scandal in Parliament today, has told the BBC the Post Office scandal is "such a big issue".

"All of the cases depend on one single lie, and that is nobody but the postmasters and mistresses could access their computers," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme this morning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67910908
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 09, 2024, 10:30:30 am
The government has just awarded Fujitsu a contract worth ?19.5 million to run England's flood defence warnings.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12938477/Why-getting-Whitehall-contracts-MPs-demand-Fujitsu-firm-centre-Post-Office-scandal-blocked-new-deals-shown-theyve-given-200-worth-6-7bn-decade-including-new-emergency-alert-system.html

They have been given government contracts worth billions since the situation with their computers in the Post Office was discovered.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on January 09, 2024, 10:53:50 am
Warning --  sit down before you read this Helig

All political donations over ?500 must be registered with the Electoral Commission. Further information is available at the Electoral Commission web-site. On 25/06/2019, Fujitsu Services Ltd donated ?14,417.00 to the Conservative and Unionist Party.          :o


Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 10, 2024, 11:16:15 am
Thank you for that information. I think it stinks and there is a distinct odour of corruption around this. No wonder the government didn't want to help the postmasters/mistresses. It says it all about this country when they get away with it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 10, 2024, 12:21:24 pm
Well, UK law backs the wealthy.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 15, 2024, 09:51:02 am
I would just like to recommend watching Neil Oliver at 6pm on a Saturday evening on GB News, Channel 236 here. Neil is an archaeologist and has presented many TV programmes on archaeology over the years. He also presented Coast at one time. He seems to have taken to politics now and his views are very interesting. He has some guests who have different views on the situation we are in worldwide.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 15, 2024, 10:58:36 am
Oliver is an extreme right-wing pundit. now working for the UK equivalent of Fox News - GB News.

He is on record as saying "Lockdown (was) the biggest single mistake in world history". He also criticised the drive to vaccinate children in the UK against COVID-19, and likened the fight against government anti-COVID measures to the fight against Nazi Germany.

He is almost certainly either delusional or paranoid; during a monologue delivered on his GB News programme on 4 February 2023, Oliver spoke of a "silent war" waged by generations of politicians in order to take "total control of the people" and impose "one-world government". According to The Guardian, the monologue apparently referred to Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars, an alleged conspiracy theory document. The Board of Deputies of British Jews and the All-Party Parliamentary Group against Antisemitism both issued statements calling on GB News to stop indulging antisemitic conspiracy theories.

In May, 2023, Oliver retweeted an image featuring Bill Gates, writing "Bill Gates: the text book example of the danger posed by rich and powerful people utterly devoid of empathy or care for individual human life". According to The Jewish Chronicle, "The image features Nazi, Satanic, and Illuminati imagery with reference to the New World Order ? a conspiracy involving a shadow totalitarian world government ? Jeffrey Epstein, Dr Anthony Fauci ? former chief medical advisor to President Joe Biden ? the United Nations, and big pharma". Broadcaster Matthew Sweet commented that the image appeared "to make mockery of the Holocaust by depicting Bill Gates as a Nazi experimenter with a swastika and IG Farben logo, which is presumably a reference to slave labour in Auschwitz".

He doesn't believe in climate change and sees the BBC as part of some global conspiracy, claiming temperatures reported during the heatwave in southern Europe in 2023 were false and accused the BBC and others of fearmongering over climate change. He alleged that ground temperatures instead of air temperatures were being used.

BBC meteorologist Tomasz Schafernaker answered the claims saying this was "absolutely not true".. In short, he distorts facts and repeats conspiracy theories as science.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 16, 2024, 10:28:10 am
Well that is your opinion, Ian and you are entitled to it. I wouldn't describe Neil Oliver as "an extreme right wing pundit". His views challenge the official line in many ways and his points are often valid in my opinion. I think it is defamatory to call him, "delusional or paranoid". I am sure that the establishment in the UK would go along with that as it suits their purpose. I don't agree with everything he says (climate change being one example) but believe he has a right to say it. Overall I support his views and think he gets it right most of the time. The mainstream UK media has its own agenda and presents a very biased account of news and political affairs.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 16, 2024, 11:30:14 am
I wouldn't describe Neil Oliver as "an extreme right wing pundit".

Well, he is a pundit ("An expert in a particular subject or field who is frequently called upon to give their opinions to the public: political pundits were tipping him for promotion: OED") and he must be extremely right wing to have a job working for GB News...

Quote
His views challenge the official line in many ways and his points are often valid in my opinion.


Such as vaccination, climate change, Child vaccinations, lockdown, his apparent belief in conspiracy theories, antisemitism...it's a long list.  Which do you agree with?

Quote
The mainstream UK media has its own agenda and presents a very biased account of news and political affairs.


Can you provide some examples of BBC or ITV being "very biased" in their news stances?

Quote
I think it is defamatory to call him, "delusional or paranoid". I am sure that the establishment in the UK would go along with that as it suits their purpose. I don't agree with everything he says but believe he has a right to say it. Overall I support his views and think he gets it right most of the time.

It's worth looking  at what he's saying and doing; he's resigned the presidency of the National Trust Scotland, argued in an interview that slavery cannot be considered genocide because ?otherwise there wouldn't be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain? and seems to have been an ardent Trump supporter in both refusing to wear a mask or get vaccinated.

He said "?If your freedom means I might catch Covid, then so be it. If my freedom means you might catch Covid, then so be it. For the sake of freedom, yours and mine together, I will cheerfully risk catching Covid." Which sparked anger among his online associates, producing comments such as ?So would you cheerfully risk passing it onto me? I?m immune suppresses so you might as well be giving me a death sentence.?" and "I?ve got stage four cancer, you wouldn?t know meeting me. Please consider wearing a mask in enclosed spaces to protect medically vulnerable people.?

Fundamentally, I do not disagree with your assertion that "overall (you) support his views and think he gets it right most of the time. You are also entitled to your belief.
"The mainstream UK media has its own agenda and presents a very biased account of news and political affairs" but if how and what he says threatens the very fabric of society, which it might, then I believe it would be wrong to agree with it.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Helig on January 17, 2024, 11:03:42 am
I think we shall have to agree to differ on this matter.

I do support much of what Neil Oliver says but not all of it. He challenges the official line in many instances. I think this is healthy. GB News does have a right wing bias but not all the time and they do cover stories the others don't.

I am an anti vaccinations and didn't have the Covid vaccine, never had the flu vaccine either. I was advised by a medical friend of mine back in the 1980s not to have the flu vaccine as it contained a lot of rubbish. She said the doctors don't have it. The adjuvants they use in vaccines can be dangerous and cause auto immune disease. I have never had children but if I had they wouldn't be given vaccinations. My opinion on The Great Reset, formerly The New World Order, is similar to that of Neil Oliver. Should that make me a conspiracy theorist then so be it. I do think Covid was man made and used to cause deaths, plus as an experiment in population control (amongst other things). Some of the very wealthy made huge amounts of money out of Covid, Bill Gates was one of them with his interest in vaccines. The globalisation that exists on the planet is harmful to the world population and is run by elites such as The Bilderberg Group.

The whole of the UK media has a right wing bias and when a general election approaches they get into action to make sure the Tories win it. The few exceptions are The Guardian and The Morning Star, Channel 4 on TV. The BBC states now that it doesn't cover protests, well how many of them do? Is that impartial reporting? How many show the activities of Extinction Rebellion, or other anti establishment groups? When Just Stop Oil does something the news coverage (if there is any) is entirely hostile. There aren't many documentaries on TV these days. Look back to the 1960s/70s when there were programmes like World in Action, or one hour of Panorama. They pump out total dumbed down fodder for morons these days.

I could go on and on but do believe I have a right to my opinions just the same as everyone else. My political views are not right wing. I notice that Ian is very critical of pretty well everything I post.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Ian on January 17, 2024, 12:31:55 pm
Thank you for explaining your beliefs.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 10, 2024, 09:35:23 am
Conservative donors and 27-year-old among new life peers

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68259178
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on February 18, 2024, 03:23:27 pm
Former PO boss claims he was told to 'stall' subpostmasters' payouts over cost before election
Compensation delays previously criticised by Llandudno campaigner and others

If this is true then how low will politics sink to?



https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/former-po-boss-claims-told-28654871
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: SteveH on March 06, 2024, 09:56:38 am
Senedd: Labour, Plaid back keeping new voting system

Labour and Plaid Cymru have refused to change controversial reforms to elections for the Welsh Parliament.

From 2026, votes will be cast for parties instead of individual candidates as part of a plan to create a bigger 96-member Senedd.

Critics say it gives parties too much power to decide who gets elected.

A Conservative and Liberal Democrat bid to let voters choose favourite candidates was rejected in the Senedd on Tuesday.

The Labour Welsh government said it was making elections simpler by giving voters one ballot paper.

The current mix of local and regional members will be replaced by 16 new constituencies, each represented by six Members of the Senedd (MSs).

Parties would put forward lists of ranked candidates for every seat under a so-called closed list system.

It is contained in a Senedd reform bill, agreed between Labour and Plaid. The bill needs two-thirds of MSs to back it to become law.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-68485848
Title: Re:National politics...Should the number of Welsh councillors be cut
Post by: SteveH on March 10, 2024, 10:14:06 am
Council tax bills will soon be landing on doormats for the coming year, with all Welsh councils having set budgets.

Some face record council tax increases, which the body representing councils blames on soaring demand and inflation.

Residents throughout Wales will see hikes, with Ceredigion bills up 11.1% and Pembrokeshire by 12.5%.

The Welsh government said it recognised the "financial challenges" councils faced but it was "a result of decisions on investment by the UK government".

Jamie Adams, a former Pembrokeshire council leader, said radical changes were needed in local government and the number of councillors in his authority could be reduced by up to 50%.

cont https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68520803
Title: Re: National politics...Welsh Government to pay for all 'bubbly concrete'
Post by: SteveH on March 11, 2024, 09:40:46 am
Welsh Government to pay for all 'bubbly concrete' RAAC repairs in schools
?2.56m will be used to cover the costs of remedial works to schools where reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete (RAAC) has been identified

cont https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/welsh-government-pay-bubbly-concrete-28783383?IYA-reg=49560bcd-5a9c-47f0-8fc5-ba2e71710589
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 12, 2024, 11:06:09 pm
UK to pay failed asylum seekers to move to Rwanda under new scheme

Failed asylum seekers are to be offered up to ?3,000 to move to Rwanda under a new voluntary scheme. 



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68550404
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: Hugo on March 13, 2024, 11:50:24 am
The plan, first reported by The Times, is understood to be a variation of an existing voluntary returns scheme, where failed asylum seekers receive cash to return to their home country
That earlier plan was bonkers too,  under that system the failed asylum seekers were returned to their home country but it was within their human rights to try and return to the UK  again and so the circle would continue
Title: Re: National politics....... Ken Skates returns as transport minister
Post by: SteveH on March 22, 2024, 10:23:01 am
Return of Prodigal Ken to Welsh Government cabinet could spell new approach on roads
New First Minister has unveiled the reshuffled ministerial team

First Minister Vaughan Gething has announced his new cabinet with a return to frontline politics for Ken Skates. The Clwyd South MS had previously held the Economy and Transport brief and was widely praised for his performance in that role.

But after the 2021 Senedd election he stepped back for personal reasons although remained an active backbencher. Now though he has returned as minister for Transport and North Wales in a new look cabinet.

Mr Skates had been a fierce critic of the scrapping of a number of major North Wales projects - like the Flintshire Corridor and third Menai crossing - after the Wales Roads Review. His appointment could spell a change of direction although funding constraints could limit what he will be able to deliver.

cont https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/return-prodigal-ken-welsh-government-28864615



Title: Re: National politics
Post by: DVT on March 22, 2024, 10:50:08 am
One thing he needs to do is revert the speed limits to pre September 2023 - nearly half a million people say so.
Title: Re: National politics
Post by: norman08 on March 22, 2024, 02:33:28 pm
He will have to ask JFS if it?s ok to change back after all it was her that championed a blanket 20,  she made a real passionate speech in the Senedd for it.