Three Towns Forum
The Local => Times Past => Topic started by: krasejc on April 30, 2012, 03:27:11 pm
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Hi Forum,
I'm a research student at Bangor University. I'm nearing the end of my studies (and writing up my dissertation) but I wanted to ask you lovely, knowledgeable people if you have any memories of the Jewish community that used to be in Llandudno. I'm aware that the old synagogue in Church Walks is now run as a Chabad centre, and I know that many orthodox Jewish visitors come to Llandudno every year, but I am talking about the people who lived in Llandudno, had businesses, etc... I know that the Lazar family ran a business there till the 1970s or 1980s? Any memories, reminiscences, or anything like that- or better yet pictures or memorabilia- would be helpful.
And if you were a member of the Jewish community then I would love to speak to you personally! I am aware that many people retired away to London and Birmingham to be nearer to their children.
Many thanks,
Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer, I don't know if this account is what you are after, but here goes. When we got married in 1961, we bought a bed from Joe Lazar, when he learned we had just got married he gave us the headboard for free. A few years later we moved to a flat in Gogarth Rd. opposite to Joe's house. My son learned to ride his Fairy Cycle around the cul-de-sac, terminating outside Joe's house and consequently got to know Joe and Vicky, his wife, and was often to be found in their kitchen, being given drinks, biscuits etc. When my son started in Lloyd St. School, Joe saw my wife taking him to school one wet morning and gave them a lift in his Humber Sceptre, a rather nice motor, he told my wife that as he was going to work at that time of day, he would take my son to school, to save my wife going, as by that time we had another infant to look after. Such was the generosity of the Lazar family.
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When we lived in Salisbury Court (off Gloddaeth Avenue), our next door neighbour was the late Percy Davies who I understand ran a business with his sister Lily in Madoc Street. Percy was introduced to me by the late Jack Berry who described Percy as an 'unorthodox Jew'. Don't really know what he meant by that.
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There are a number of Jewish families in and around the area both passed on and alive, but quite frankly, I am opposed to putting their names on this site without their permission. And I would certainly wish to know a lot more about the person making the enquiries before saying or doing anything! Perhaps other people should give this advice some consideration. ;)
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I think Yorkie has a point. I can think of a least two Jewish families still in town.
One a historical note, I have read that during the last war a rabbi took his own life in a house near the Links.
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I have run a check on the person enquiring, others can do the same and form their own opinion. Twitter is a good start, or just a plain old Google search. WWW
I am, of course, presuming the personal information given by "Jennifer" is correct and she is indeed J C Krase.
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Hello Jennifer,
I have some information which may be helpful to you.
My mother was born and bred in Llandudno and my grandmother (and family) lived there for about 80 of her 88 years.
My mother spoke about her young years in the town and these included during WW2. At that time the Jewish community from Golder's Green and other London Jewish communities such as Stamford Hill, relocated out of London to Llandudno. She knew four Jewish sisters who lived in St David's Road. Two of these stayed in the town, married and lived there for the rest of their lives. There were many others like them and I think the Lazar family may have been one of these.
The other long standing Jewish family in the town was the Gubay family. They were from India and came to Llandudno in the early days about 1910-20. I think there history may have been covered elswhere on this site. I can provide you with more details if not.
Helig.
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Dr Salisbury in Craig y don looked after many of us and was a lovely man. Also Izzy Croop had a furniture shop and you could pay him weekly. He also collected milk bottle tops from his customers and gave them to North Wales Fund for the Blind to raise money for guide dogs. I think he was recognised for all his hard work. His shop is now the RSPCA charity shop.
The Mansons and her Mother Mrs Benjamin lived in Abbey Road and Cecil managed Wartskis.
These people are all long gone so I see no harm in mentioning them and their contributions to the local community.
Also Mr Modell was the rabbi and his daughter Susan went to St Georges school. Nice man.
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Mrs Gubbay is from Persia now Iran not India.
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Hey everyone! If you aren't sure about me my Uni email is cop812@bangor.ac.uk, and if you look on the Creative Studies and Media website you'll see that my supervisor, Dr. Nathan Abrams has me listed in his supervisions. :)
Compeltely understood and you can PM or email me if you would prefer!! I am looking for personal memories or anything like that. I ran across Oscar's blog about seven months ago and he had a great post about Robin Gubay's cafe in Llandudno, I then found this forum and thought I would finally make a post.
If you know anyone and think perhaps they would be interested in recounting their memories of growing up or living in Llandudno, or you yourself might be interested, then I am more than happy to talk to you privately also. :)
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I think Yorkie has a point. I can think of a least two Jewish families still in town.
One a historical note, I have read that during the last war a rabbi took his own life in a house near the Links.
Yes, I understand this- I'm not looking to "out" anyone as of course I know it can be a sensitive issue. I am looking for memories of times past really, things like does anyone remember Tikvah, or any of the other kosher boarding houses that were run by the women of the community from the earliest days up until the 1960s? And I know that there were several businesses run by Jewish families- of course Wartski and Blairman's but they both moved to London- and I know the Lazar family ran a business, as well as the Davies family. I believe the Gubays were either Persian or Iraqi in origin? I'm quite certain I've seen the census or immigration records for Robin's father or grandfather in the National Archive and in the online census information. I think they owned the Oriental Stores which is unfortunately, like many local family businesses in this day and age, no longer there. :(
I would love to know more about the Berry family, Emanuel Berry was the rabbi for many many years and I believe he either retired or passed away finally in the 1940s after the second World War. I am really looking for personal accounts to add a bit of life to the rather dry information I have- I know my colleague has actually spoken to Vicki Lazar this year, but I'm interested in local non-Jewish perspectives to as part of my thesis is looking at how people did or didn't construct a Welsh/local identity for themselves. It's obvious that many of the people you've already mentioned were very much part of the Llandudno community! :)
Thank you for your help and input, everyone.
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The three Gubay brothers, Edward, Jack and Robin, have all sadly passed away. I do recall Jack once telling me that his mother was originally from Baghdad but I think the three brothers were all born in Britain. Jack served in the RAF during the war. I don't think they thought of themselves as anything but Llandudno folk - and why not.
Mrs Vicki (Velma) Lazar was originally from Glasgow, I seem to think she met her husband Joe when they were both in the RAF. She does come up to Llandudno occasionally but I have not seen her for some years. Vicki was a prominent councillor both on Llandudno Urban Council and then Aberconwy Borough Council. She was Mayor of Aberconwy at one stage.
Another local Jewish family were the Salzedos. Mr Salzedo had a jeweller's shop somewhere but I can't remember him myself.
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Thank you Cambrian, that is very interesting! It is a real shame that many of the older generation have passed on. I am sure they would have been great to chat to- the real shame of it all on top of this, is that the congregation minutes and seatholder records have been lost, in a flood in the 1960s I believe, in the Glamorgan record office, where Welsh Jewish records were kept. A big disappointment really for an academic looking at the history of such a lively rural congregation. You often find that the minutes shed light on rather amusing squabbles between ministers and congregants (I'm sure if you're part of a neighbourhood church like the one I grew up in, this is a familiar possibility... ha ha ha)
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There are other Gubay/Gubbay families around and I apologise for getting the origins of the Llandudno line wrong. I have read somewhere of one line that came from India.
My grandmother spoke of the mother of the Gubay boys running the Oriental Stores, she was said to have been in the shop at all hours and was very keen on the business.
There is a seat with a memorial plaque to Edward Gubay in Haulfre Gardens. He went to John Bright's school which was a Grammar School then.
The Levy family left Golder's Green in London in WW2. Their father was an accountant and the four daughters were in Llandudno throughout the war. I think two of them stayed on, Maisie married Sid Hardman, a Jewish man from Liverpool. They lived in The Oval and had two children. I met Maisie many times in the 1960s. She died c1970 as I recall. Sid ran a newsagents on the corner of Mostyn Street and Vaughn St.
There might be someone still alive who can give you more information. I will check to see.
There is also Albert Gubay who is the Kwik Save founder. I think he is related to the Llandudno family but he didn't live in the town.
Helig.
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There might be someone still alive who can give you more information. I will check to see.
Helig.
Thank you! This is all very interesting, I am aware that a lot of people evacuated to Llandudno in WWII; I'm currently writing about Llandudno in WWI and it's certainly true that the hotels etc were put to use billetting soldiers. I know the congregation at that time regularly hosted Jewish soldiers who were staying at Llandudno and they often had to borrow rooms from a particular chapel in Llandudno, I can't remember for the life of me which at the moment! There were quite good relations I think between most of the Christian churches and the Jewish community.
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When we lived in Salisbury Court (off Gloddaeth Avenue), our next door neighbour was the late Percy Davies who I understand ran a business with his sister Lily in Madoc Street. Percy was introduced to me by the late Jack Berry who described Percy as an 'unorthodox Jew'. Don't really know what he meant by that.
He ran a clothes shop in Madoc Street and was known locally as "Davies the Jew".
We also knew his shop by that name and always bought our school uniforms from there.
I remember his Sister who always sat at the rear of the shop.
Karen.
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As refugees during WW2 we lived in Colwyn-Bay therefor I have no knowledge of Llandudno's Jewish history. I do know that there was a Jewish Community Centre located in Princess Drive, Colwyn-Bay called 'Zion House'. Unfortunately, that is all I know but I thought just to let you know.
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I remember Zion House in Colwyn Bay. It was opposite the present Barclays business centre. (that is, if the business centre is still there---they havent turned it into a casino LOL). Zion house fascinated me, it had, to me, strange symbols on the outside which I didnt understand, nor trust. I suppose I thought as a ten year old it was witchcraft. Mike
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Anyone know why we suddenly have vast amounts of the Jewish People in town this week? Is it some special holiday for them?
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http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm (http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm)
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http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm (http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm)
That'll be a 'No' then
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Hello Nemesis. The house that the jews own in Abbey Road holds a considerable amount of people. Most appear to come from Manchester.
They invariably walk up the orme, all together, at some time. Even in the rain.
I can only imagine that because of recent weather !!!! they decided to be more sensible and walk around Llandudno.
The house I refer to is full virtually the whole time. I have myself witnessed around 50 all going in in one wack. Mike
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I'll answer my own question !! ;D Having been informed by a neighbour.
Apparently there is a large Jewish wedding in town this weekend. Quite a few local B&Bs have them staying, as well as the Chabad( ?) in Church Walks. Hence the fact that they are all so smartly dressed.
Having catered for the kosher diet in the past, breakfast can be somewhat of a difficulty, especially as the same utensils cannot be used for kosher and non kosher food.
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Sorry Nemesis, I probably meant Church Walks, not Abbey Street Teach me as a outsider sticking m nose in Mike
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http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm (http://www.chabad.org/calendar/holidays_cdo/aid/1126695/jewish/2012-Holidays.htm)
That'll be a 'No' then
Actually it saved a long boring explanation. - Shalom! WWW
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Nay Mike -I am more of an outsider than yourself !
The building in question is looking very shabby--especially from the rear which is in Rectory Lane.
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Saw this the other day, some interest to the person who was doing the original research perhaps?
http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/news-from-llandudno-wales-uk-pronounced.html (http://theantitzemach.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/news-from-llandudno-wales-uk-pronounced.html)
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35 young Jewish boys with black hats, white shirts, black suits and their scarf thingys (sorry) round their waists got off the train from London with me last night. They had an older man with a long white beard with them. They set of up Madoc Street at a rate of knots, don't know where they went. If the synagogue is no longer where would any wedding take place?
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Perhaps someone else might know--- The building in Church Walks does hold some kind of services, I have heard chanting etc when walking the dog-- but -- Is it an actual synagogue? Some of the basement rooms are equipped with dormitory style sleeping arrangements, and there is an awful lot of coming and going of all ages.
Re the wedding-- this is what we wondered because Chabad isn't big enough for the volume of people around. Does Venue Cymru host weddings?
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Yes it is/was a Synagogue but not sure if it's now just referred to as a Jewish Centre....my friends used to live in the flats above and below. Here is an article from 2007:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/faith/pages/mike_lee.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northwest/sites/faith/pages/mike_lee.shtml)
Would love to go to a Jewish wedding - Mazel Tov!
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Does any one remember Mr. Langley? he was a lovely man who had an antique or jewellers shop, can't remember which in one of those little shops next to the Con Club in Upper Mostyn Street. Probably in the 1950's.
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Hi
My name is Ashley Goodall, I'm the son of Albert 'Bunney' Goodall (Abraham Goodstone) the son of Minnie Goodstone (Cohen) and Julius Goodstone. They were residents of Manchester (Cheetham).
I've just found this site and am intrigued as to the presence of a Jewish Community in Llandudno. I know from family in Manchester, the Sauls (once Zacharofskis) that Granny Minnie Goodstone had a Kosher food business in and around Llandudno. Sadly I never knew my grandmother Minnie Goodstone (Cohen).
I would love to hear from anyone that specifically remembers her or her business at this time. All I know of her was that she is supposed to have had distinctive flame red hair and spoke with a heavy accent. I'm not too sure why she came to Llandudno, but would be very happy to hear from anyone that has any information about her. I know that she also worked in the Penmaenmawr area as well.
Strangely enough my mother grew up in Llandudno as a child, she was Kathleen Hill, the daughter of Fred Hill one of the main gardners at the Haulfre gardens.
I now have an extensive record of the Goodstones in Britain, their family tree and other associated records.
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Can't help you about your own family, but there is a rapidly growing Jewish community in Llandudno, now, with the hotel adjacent to Headlands having been purchased by an Orthodox / ultra Orthodox group and several dwellings along Llys Helg Drive now in similar hands. The old Railway Convalescent home in the same location is now a maternity home for Jewish Ultra Orthodox, I think.
I have a Jewish friend from Manchester whom I see fairly regularly, so I'll ask him next time we meet.
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Hi, can't help you with you're enquiries either sorry but was interested to hear about your grandfather who was a gardener in Haulfre Gardens. My grandfather (taid) was also a gardener in Haulfre (head gardener if I am not mistaken) and lived in the flat above the Sunshine Cafe as it was then called from approximately the mid 1960s to mid 1980's. He has sadly passed away so I can't ask him if he knew your grandfather - would he have lived in the old cottage in Haulfre as my grandmother (nain)mentioned that the retired head gardener lived there when my taid took over? I will ask her if she remembers Fred Hill though she may not as her memory is not great these days. Good luck with your search :)
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HI Ian and Sam
Thank-you so much for all your information, it's really appreciated. Ian, if your friend does know anything that would be fantastic.
Sam my grandfather married Betty...(sorry don't know her name) but they lived in their later years as caretakers of Lloyds? Bank. They had a daughter, my mother's half sister called Freda.
Sorry, but I don't know anything about the cottage I think that Betty may have been a Nicholson as Bobby Nicholson, a relation, worked on the Pier during the 1950s. Unfortunately I only visited from time to time as a child, and therefore my memory is somewhat imprecise.
Thank-you for our comments,
Ashley
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Mr and Mrs Hill and their daughter Freda lived for a short time at 8 Tudno Street, renting from Mostyn Estate, I don't remember but it must have been late 50's or early 60's. I don't remember them but Freda and I would knock on the wall sending messages to each other! She was older than me and I'm sorry but I don't know what happened to her or where they went after leaving Tudno Street.
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Hi Forum,
I'm a research student at Bangor University. I'm nearing the end of my studies (and writing up my dissertation) but I wanted to ask you lovely, knowledgeable people if you have any memories of the Jewish community that used to be in Llandudno. I'm aware that the old synagogue in Church Walks is now run as a Chabad centre, and I know that many orthodox Jewish visitors come to Llandudno every year, but I am talking about the people who lived in Llandudno, had businesses, etc... I know that the Lazar family ran a business there till the 1970s or 1980s? Any memories, reminiscences, or anything like that- or better yet pictures or memorabilia- would be helpful.
And if you were a member of the Jewish community then I would love to speak to you personally! I am aware that many people retired away to London and Birmingham to be nearer to their children.
Many thanks,
Jennifer
Further to this post and replies from 7 years ago now, is anyone in touch with Vicki Lazar or members of the Lazar family today? I'm researching a theatre project set in WW2 Llandudno and am interested in personal accounts from families who ran hotels at this time and whose businesses were requisitioned. I have found reference in the Flintshire Archives to a hotelier "Mrs Lazar", who had expressed concerns to landlords Mostyn Estates re payment of insurance premiums on requisitioned properties. I've trawled the newspapers of the time (Llandudno Advertiser, North Wales Weekly News, and the Inland Revenue magazine, Ormescliffe Gazette) in the British Library, but most elusive is detail on what happened to hoteliers who were turfed out of their businesses for the duration - where did they go when given often only hours' notice to quit the premises? How did they make a living in the meantime? Any direct local or family info would be most welcome. Thank you.
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You might like to try Terrence Lazar or Marcia Lazar on Facebook children of Vicki
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Thank you!
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Since a number of government departments were relocated to Llandudno during WW2, many of the larger hotels were requisitioned for their use. The Inland Revenue took over The Imperial Hotel for the duration of the war. The Probate office remained in Llandudno as well. Their employees were also housed with local families. I seem to recall my mother speaking of an Inland Revenue employee who stayed with them in St David's Place. I think some of their neighbours had other Civil Servants staying with them. I might be wrong but I don't think they had a choice in this.
Helig.
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This is a recent link which might be of interest.....
Fascinating stories of Second World War evacuation revealed at the places where they happened. Including Conwy County
The start of the Second World War 80 years ago triggered a mass relocation of people and organisations to Wales.
Now, evacuation stories are being revealed on the sites where they happened
https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17871306.fascinating-stories-second-world-war-evacuation-revealed-places-happened/ (https://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/news/17871306.fascinating-stories-second-world-war-evacuation-revealed-places-happened/)
This is the start point for Conwy County http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=ancaster-square-llanrwst (http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=ancaster-square-llanrwst)
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There is some more information on a number of hotels on these sites:
http://www.hotelambassador.co.uk/historyhotel.html (http://www.hotelambassador.co.uk/historyhotel.html)
http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=home-front-llandudno (http://historypoints.org/index.php?page=home-front-llandudno)
The Imperial Hotel site confirms my suspicion that people had no choice then to accommodate the Civil Servants.
Helig
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Thanks, yes, I'm aware of these public links and have extensively researched the hotels commandeered for the Inland Revenue (100+ pages of notes!). However, what is missing from these press/public/bureaucratic sources are the personal stories of how those turfed out coped for the duration. It wasn't written about in press accounts and documentary evidence beyond concerns about insurance and compensation for fixtures and fittings seems scant. I'm keen to find stories from families who experienced this from the inside.
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As it is 73 years since the end of WW2 I think you will be lucky to find anyone alive who remembers this now. My mother used to talk about the war years in Llandudno, so her knowledge can be passed on through me. It depends on how many other people spoke about this to their family and whether they absorbed the information. An appeal in The North Wales Weekly News might assist you in this quest.
Helig.
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Hello
Spotty dog mentioned the Lazar family. I have been looking online, and, most regrettably, Vicki Lazar died late last year at the age of 92.
My family knew the Lazars in the early 1960s - Mum and Dad were in Ladies Circle and Round Table, as were Mr and Mrs Lazar.
Regards
TL
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I remember the Lazar family and Lazar's, their store in Madoc St. This was back in the 1960s and early 1970s. One of my cousins knew Marcia Lazar. I don't know if the two children stayed in the town. Does anyone know what happened to them?
Helig
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I believe all three are in the London area. Michael was living near his mother in North London a few years ago.
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Hello again
That's right - all three children are in London. Marcia and Terence have Facebook sites, and Michael co-wrote a moving tribute to Vicki in the Jewish Chronicle of 17 January 2020.
I only knew the family in the 1960s, but would be very interested in any memories; they played quite a part in my late Mum and Dad's lives.
TL
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The glittering past of humble North Wales High Street and its links to world famous jeweler, Wartskis
North Wales Live shines a spotlight on a street with a fascinating history and an uncertain future.
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/glittering-past-humble-north-wales-18904221 (https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/glittering-past-humble-north-wales-18904221)