Author Topic: Roads in the area  (Read 118284 times)

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DVT

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #855 on: July 12, 2018, 08:12:44 PM »
The camera is often parked at the southern end of Glan Conwy, within yards/metres of the change to national speed limit (60 mph) - I had forgotten about it when I went that way yesterday morning but fortunately was following a tanker so was going through at marginally under 30.  My colleague was not so fortunate so is expecting to get done for doing 35 (on his dashboard) - the camera is placed so as to get you as you come round the corner so has got you just as you see it.

As there is miniscule chance of danger at that point then it must be there purely as a money-box, and no really there for safety reasons.

Ian

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #856 on: July 12, 2018, 08:25:38 PM »
Driving along the A470 about 30 minutes ago we encountered a stream of cyclists on an evening cycle rally. Half had no lights on their bikes and the number of vehicles pulling out after seeing them at the last moment beggared belief.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Fester

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #857 on: July 12, 2018, 10:23:13 PM »
So... they’ve taken £200,000 off speeding motorists at Rhuallt Hill.
Where does all that money go then?
Fester...
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Bri Roberts

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #858 on: July 12, 2018, 10:31:09 PM »
FOI request to North Wales Police?

Dave

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #859 on: July 13, 2018, 07:34:03 AM »
The Police don't get it, try looking here.
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Their map is out of date though, no reference to Rhuallt Hill yet.

DVT

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #860 on: July 13, 2018, 09:25:09 AM »
So ... they (the go-safe people) claim that nearly half of all motorists driving down Rhuallt were exceeding the speed limit (70mph) so have introduced average speed cameras.

... they now claim that they have "made" £200k from the speeding fines, since installation.

... surely, if the reason for the average speed camers is to reduce accidents then the statistics should not be about the amount of "income" but should be comparing the number of accidents since installing the cameras with the number of accidents over the same period of time before the cameras were installed.  Have any such figures been published?

... statistics giving the amount of income only enforces the fact that they are concentrating on fleecing the safe motorist rather than concentrating on those who have the accidents (and I reckon many of those would actually be within the 70mph speed limit).

... of course speed (movement) is an element in every accident - if nothing moved then there would be no bumps!

Ian

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #861 on: July 13, 2018, 10:37:46 AM »
I agree;  it doesn't add up. We need detailed stats on accidents before and after the speed camera installation, plus stats about accidents during the same times of day and year.

It's far from clear whether fining people actually reduces road accidents.  From a Guardian report in 2013:

"Professor Richard Allsop’s RAC Foundation report found that the number of fatal and serious collisions near 551 fixed speed cameras the number of crashes either went down or did not increase by a significant amount; at 21 sites the number of crashes went up by a significant amount."

The entire issue of speed cameras and statistical benefits is fraught with imponderables and unjustified confidence from 'experts'.  People will often say because they've seen the results of serious accidents they 'know' that speed is the problem. And as DVT points out, if all vehicles remained parked all the time, then there'd be almost no accidents on the roads.   

But we live in a society where personal transport and goods transport are critical aspects of that society. The question, therefore, has to be not 'does speed kill' but 'how can we ensure that inevitable accidents result in the fewest possible injuries?'.

The statistics for roads throughout the world don't help that much, either; so much information relevant to statistic outcomes isn't used or incorporated - road maintenance, weather, changes in temperature, catastrophic failure, improvements in vehicular design and much more. The only fact we can be completely sure of is that as speed increases so does the probability of an accident. In other words we're back to DVT's point: if the vehicle stays parked and in the garage, there would be far fewer accidents.

Given that the society in which we live has chosen to allow us to drive on roads, how are speed limits set? Interestingly, there's no scientific studies of any merit that established the 70mph limit. The 70mph and 60mph limits were introduced as a result of the oil crisis in 1974 and kept for road safety purposes afterwards. 40 and 50 mph limits are required in places where the highway design means that it is not safe to travel any faster (usually defined by the safe stopping sight distances to a stationary vehicle in the carriageway). (DoT)

So the basis of their introduction was nothing to do with safety but to save the country money.  There's a substantial body of evidence that suggests reducing speed limits on all motorways to 45mph would allow traffic to move more easily (RTL) but the bottom line is that the main cause of road accidents is driver error.

And you see this every day, on every road. Inability to use roundabouts - particularly those at Black Cat - are a prime example, lack of observation, following too closely behind other vehicles, lack of anticipation, failure to know what signals are for, talking to and looking at the passenger (!!!) while driving, use of the mobile 'phone in the hand - all these add up to not only sloppy and thoughtless driving but dangerous habits and perhaps if these drivers were targeted instead of those who infringe an entirely arbitrary speed limit we might have safer roads.

The UK focuses entirely on speed - because it's the easiest way to collect cash - but perhaps a re-think of targeting is needed to eliminate those drivers who, even at low speed, present a clear and unmistakable danger to the rest of us.






“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.



Dave

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #862 on: July 13, 2018, 01:01:33 PM »
Whereas I largely agree with you Ian I don't think it's fair to say only speeding drivers are targeted. There are specific campaigns aimed at drink and drug using drivers too.
Rhuallt Hill is an accident black spot and I seem to recall several fatalities there too. What part speed played in all those accidents would be interesting to know but clearly if a car comes whizzing through doing well over a ton it can cause an accident even if it doesn't get directly involved. Average speed cameras might be able to differentiate between a lorry and a car if they are linked to DVLA information but probably not if they are foreign, neither can they tell if a vehicle is towing a trailer I wouldn't think. There are cameras set up along there though so perhaps examples of bad driving can be pursued that way? Having said that there are CCTV cameras in places like Craig-y-Don that should regularly spot vehicles illegally parked on the double yellow lines that make vision limited approaching the pedestrian crossings to say nothing of trying to cross over or turn at this cross roads.
As far as fining people being a deterrent you are probably right, it isn't. If they were a lot higher they might be but what really makes people think twice is the loss of their licence. If you simply award points for an offence though most people will just laugh off the first few before taking notice if they are nearing a ban.

Hugo

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #863 on: July 13, 2018, 06:07:39 PM »
I don't really see the average speed cameras on Rhuallt Hill as being any type of problem.    The maximum speed in the UK is 70 mph but that doesn't mean you have to do 70 mph you can do less if you want to but if you do exceed the speed limit then you are breaking the law.
It's as simple as that, so no one can moan if they get caught as it's no one's fault but their own.   

Even if the speed limit was 90 mph you would still get the same people breaking that limit too.



Ian

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #864 on: July 13, 2018, 06:20:02 PM »
Not always that simple, Hugo.  What if you're travelling down the A470 on a narrow stretch and a ambulance or Police car races up behind you, sirens blaring and blues flashing? Stopping means slowing the ambulance down and the ambulance can't overtake safely because of the narrowness and bends.  In that case, surely you have to drive quicker, so as not to delay the ambulance?

I pose this because it's exactly the situation our eldest found himself in while I was teaching him to drive. What should he have done?
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Hugo

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #865 on: July 13, 2018, 07:19:05 PM »
That's a different thing altogether Ian so you can't compare the two, but if you want to put it to the test by all means do.  So if it happens to you again on the A470  put your foot down and give the cops a run for their money and then hope that their call out if more important than booking you for speeding.   

Ian

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #866 on: July 13, 2018, 08:00:16 PM »
It was an ambulance, in fact. The point I'm making is that sometimes laws have to be broken for the greater good.  And of course there is bad law, much of which is repealed as times move on.  It's perhaps sobering to remember that all women in the UK haven't had the legal right to vote for 100 years, yet, and it was only comparatively recently when those in the Gay community were considered criminal.  And we're reminded constantly of the time when slavery was legal.

Laws are established on behalf of the people but the views of those people change all the time. We shouldn't be dogmatic.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Hugo

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #867 on: July 13, 2018, 11:10:21 PM »
I remember working with a former Policeman who always  had a saying which was something like this " rules are for fools to follow but wise men to  take heed of them"
At one time I think that we didn't have a speed limit but we do have one now and that is 70 mph but the way some people drive now you would think that there was no speed limit in force.
Now about the blue lights flashing on Police cars behind you, if they can't overtake you what should you do?   I can't advise you because I read about someone who was stopped at the traffic lights which were on red and then a Police car came behind him with it's blue lights on and the siren going off but it couldn't pass him.
What should he have done?
What he did was to move across the line a few yards to allow the Police to get through and continue on their way, but instead they stopped and booked him!
So that's your choice break the law if you want to but don't expect to get away with it

Ian

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #868 on: July 14, 2018, 08:40:29 AM »
I can imagine that. Police are simply people, and come in all varieties.  I was more concerned about the ambulance and the possibility that a delay caused by someone fearing for a few points could jeopardise a life.

Good drivers don't treat the speed limit as a target, and there are places on the A470 where it's certainly unsafe to do so. And anyone doing 30 down Mostyn Street at 0900 is asking for trouble.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Hugo

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Re: Roads in the area
« Reply #869 on: July 14, 2018, 09:00:15 AM »
That's a fair point about the ambulance Ian and common sense should be applied there.    It's a shame that all road users don't apply common sense and have consideration for other road users as the roads would be a much safer place.