Author Topic: Points to Ponder  (Read 214201 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #450 on: June 05, 2015, 08:28:42 am »
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The sooner this human rights nonsense is scrapped the better! They only ever seem to apply to the wrong people!  $angry$

Well, that's certainly what the media would have you believe. But most of the achievements of the Act are never realised and a few things about the Act might come as a surprise.

For instance, did you know

  * British courts are not required to follow the judgements of the European Court of Human Rights blindly - they must only 'take account' of them. They can then choose to disregard them.

   * The Act protects everyone and a particular concern is the right to privacy.

   * The Act protects only 15 well-established fundamental freedoms, like the right to life and the right to a fair trial.

   * The Act requires the state to take steps to protects the rights of all its citizens - and in particular to deal with those who attempt to infringe the rights of others. Punishing criminals is required.

   * Our Act requires the government to balance freedom against the risk to public safety.

In general, the effect of the HRA has been to protect and enhance freedoms for everyone, but what exercises the tabloid press so much is the issue of foreign criminals not being thrown out of the UK.

But they can be.  There's no prohibition in the Act anywhere that prevents it. There's only one exception: the government can't send back anyone to any state which condones the use of torture.

If we examine that carefully, what does it mean? Simply put, are we prepared to support the repatriation of anyone to a country where they could be tortured? Because if we do then it follows we support or at least accept the use of torture. If that's the case then it's a relatively short step before torture is introduced here. And where you might assume it will only ever be used in extreme cases, such as terrorism or to save potential victims, then what you have to remember is that where the power to use any means is approved it is never long before the use of those means is condoned, piece by piece, in other situations.

It's also worth remembering that well before our HRA the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights prevented the UK from deporting people to places of torture. So that's not a new function of the Act.

Finally, although it may not come as news to some there is evidence that the tabloids don't always tell the truth. Leading the braying pack of depraved media moguls is, of course, the DFM which loves to scream headlines such as "Prisoners access pornography because of human rights". Their headline was based on a story that the serial killer Dennis Nilsen was using human rights law to demand access to hardcore pornography in prison. The only tiny detail they forgot to mention was that the court denied him permission to even bring the claim, let alone have it heard.

In terms of the current situation, the Mirror's story is not quite what it seems from the headline. Deep in the text the reporter becomes far more cautious about what was being paid and to whom, exactly, only saying about a 'possibility'. This has nothing to do with the HRA, however; it's to do with the DWP's own rules and regulations and their interpretation of the various chunks of legislation which are updated every budget, or twice a year. Given also that the egregious Osborne's cuts have been aimed mostly at the poor and those who seek to help them, the DWP's staff has been consistently cut, but there's been no let-up in legislation. Thus, mistakes are being made, and often on a grand scale.

I appreciate the Mirror has to attempt to combat the pusillanimous verbal excretions of the DFM but they do themselves and the cause of social justice no favours by running with this story in the way they do.



 
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #451 on: June 05, 2015, 09:04:27 am »
Having said that, the Mirror showed its true colours in an excellent article last October:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/helps-every-day-what-human-4375438
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.


Offline bigbadhenry

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #452 on: June 05, 2015, 09:29:47 am »
I read the article in the Daily Mirror today and it's just unbelievable that the Government could be so stupid.   The Cons have got no excuse for things to happen like that and it needs urgent and immediate reform.
I read in that paper some time ago that any illegal immigrant caught  that "volunteer" to be sent home can expect to receive an amount of money for resettlement and a figure of between £500.00 and £3000.00 was mentioned.
It also mentioned that if these illegal immigrants came back into the UK and "volunteered" to go back home they would receive a resettlement fee again.
Apparently it was their human right to be paid again.       :rage:

Surprised anybody believes anything written in the British press.

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #453 on: June 05, 2015, 10:29:58 am »
I never read any of the papers, usually just see the BBC news, I only ever hear of human rights being used by the wrong people, I would still be happy to see it gone.
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #454 on: June 05, 2015, 10:36:05 am »
But what would replace it?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #455 on: June 05, 2015, 10:48:54 am »
Nothing, we must have gone for many years without it? What happened to survival of the strongest?
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #456 on: June 05, 2015, 11:13:25 am »
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Nothing, we must have gone for many years without it? What happened to survival of the strongest?

Well, the European Convention on Human Rights was drafted (mainly by UK lawyers) in 1950 and that was done as a reaction to the horrors perpetrated during WWII. At that time, across much of Europe, homosexuality was still illegal, marital rape, corporal and capital punishment were still legal and elderly couples were split up willy-nilly when they had to move out of their homes. Somehow, I suspect you're not being entirely serious about the "survival of the strongest" argument...  :o

 WWW WWW

Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #457 on: June 05, 2015, 11:49:36 am »
I have always been a fan of common sense,  as in your example of the elderly couple being split up, that should not happen with out a good medical reason, I just think that we keep coming up with extra laws to cover this and that, just keeps lawyers in business!
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Offline Fester

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #458 on: June 05, 2015, 11:56:49 am »
Nothing, we must have gone for many years without it? What happened to survival of the strongest?

.... I'm on my way to the gym, to get muscled up.
On my way home, I'm gonna stop by Merddin's house.... and nick his classic cars, cos I'll be strong and powerful.

If however I miscalculate, and Merdin is stronger than me...then you are most welcome to dispose of my battered old car as you see fit.   ;D
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #459 on: June 05, 2015, 12:07:36 pm »
You would not get them because I have this..... WWW
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #460 on: June 05, 2015, 12:41:58 pm »
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I just think that we keep coming up with extra laws to cover this and that, just keeps lawyers in business!

True, but you have to remember that most MPs are (often failed) lawyers...
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #461 on: June 05, 2015, 03:52:18 pm »
Having said that, the Mirror showed its true colours in an excellent article last October:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/helps-every-day-what-human-4375438

It's a good article Ian and shows that the Human Rights Act can be good for most people if used with a bit of common sense but why did they highlight Gary McKinnon?
OK he's ill but he committed a crime and should be accountable for his actions.    I don't know what punishment the UK Government has done or is doing to make sure that he never tries that again.   At the very least there should be a restriction imposed on his use of the internet and possibly some medical help for him.   
In my humble opinion it wasn't the best example of how the Human Rights Act should benefit the UK citizens 

Offline Ian

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #462 on: June 05, 2015, 04:53:02 pm »
Actually, I tend to agree. McKinnon wasn't a good example. But the big problem we face all the time is the minority of people who seek to abuse well-intentioned legislation.  Any regulations that aim to help people will inevitably be abused. Trouble is, I don't know of a reliable way round that.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline snowcap

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #463 on: June 05, 2015, 10:26:29 pm »
shows fester, M.E. is not to be taken lightly

Offline Fester

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Re: Points to Ponder
« Reply #464 on: June 09, 2015, 12:38:42 am »
Certainly linked to the NHS topic,  or this could be possibly filed under the 'Helpful Suggestions' file.

I have recently encountered several sad instances of bereavements, some locally and some told to me by visitors, where I have concluded the following.

1, If you are over 75, do not fall under any circumstances.
2, If you have loved ones of that age, do all you can to prevent them ever 'having a fall'
3, If you DO have a fall,  under NO circumstances be admitted to hospital.    They WILL finish you off!! 

Seriously, there are so many tragic accounts of innocuous falls, leading to shoddy treatment, infections, bedsores, malnutrition.....etc... etc.... which inevitably leads to that person withering away and dying in an alarmingly short space of time!


Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -