Covid restrictions enforcement

[Dave]

My point is being missed here. The virus doesn't recognise borders but it seizes the opportunity to spread where people gather in large numbers. I'll exclude Scotland but in North Wales anyone suffering from the virus is probably no more than a couple of hours away from where they came from in the fist instance. The Nightingale hospital in Llandudno has yet to see a patient from what I can gather. People fleeing to second homes probably do so to be able to isolate themselves from danger, not to go forth and have a wild time. Everywhere is shut here after all!
Relax the rules so people can live a little normality but hit those hard who break them by partying etc etc..
Basically we are all victims of the one size fits all set of rules which are quite draconian, harsh on those that follow them, irrelevant to those who don't  and consequently won't make a jot of difference to changing our futures longer term.
Meanwhile, I seek solace in bottle of  ref wine and several cans of lager both of which are a lot less expensive in England where the minimum 50p per unit of alcohol isn't in place. That's about the only difference between our leader in Wales and other communist countries where they encourage alcohol abuse as a way of keeping the population under control but even they might to have to reconsider that policy now too!!

[Hugo]

Your point wasn't being missed at all Dave, you were quite correct when you said that the virus seizes the opportunity to spread where people gather in large numbers so I thought that there was no need to emphasise something that is obvious.
On the matter of second homes then that rule is also crystal clear, the owners of second homes should not come into Wales, that is against the law and there are no mitigating circumstances that allow living in the second home.
These people know the law and some are devious and try to get to their second homes under the cover of darkness and by having their belongings sent separately by courier van to avoid getting detected.     Unfortunately if they get to their second homes without getting detected then the Police do not have the power to evict them from that property

You will find that people who break one law are quite capable of breaking others too.      The Police have found this out to their cost when they have stopped cars and motorbikes that have come over the border.    No road tax, MOT's, insurances and false number plates have resulted in many vehicles being seized and the offenders fined and sent on their way back home.

Draconian Rules?    Do you think for one minute that we all enjoy staying at home and not being able to meet our friends and family?
We do it for the sake of our health and to protect the health of others and also because it is the law.
Just look at other countries like Spain, France, Germany, Ireland and Scotland and see the measures that they have put in place.
England on the other hand although it has acted with integrity hasn't been listening to the scientists for the last 4 weeks so now it has to go into lockdown for at least a month but probably more if what Michael Gove said yesterday is true

I was shocked and disappointed that Cllr Sam Rowlands said in early October that he was going to arrange a peaceful demonstration on Llandudno Promenade.
Then we have the Facebook group organising a protest demonstration on the Promenade on the 25th October 2020 which was completely irresponsible and stupid in the circumstances.
I just hope that no one in that large crowd caught the virus as a result of the meeting and I am equally disappointed that the Police did not fine the organisers of this meeting £10K  because they certainly deserved it

[Dave]

I agree entirely about large gatherings being irresponsible no matter what the reason.
Second homes are more a political issue than a health safety one. When does a second home become a first home and vice versa.If someone decided to sell up and move from England to Wales what would the difference be? OK, the population of some places might double but if quarantine was enforced the problem would be solved. The trouble is there is a resentment of those that can afford second homes and that's the underlying issue.
Meanwhile Mr Drakeford has the perfect scenario. Wales is to become a country where no one can leave , no one can arrive, unless they are bringing a sack load of money from London.He has control and is answerable to no one at the moment it seems.
As far as the rules go, I still think they are unnecessarily over the top when it comes to meeting friends and family. Close down public meeting places, but allow small numbers of say four or less or up to two families to meet in private homes and let them decide what's needed to protect each other either by keeping a safe distance or even staying outdoors. The biggest risk I take is going to the supermarket once a week and that is hugely more dangerous than meeting the handful of friends and family who I know and trust will be doing everything to minimise their exposure to the virus too.

[Ian]

The biggest risk I take is going to the supermarket once a week and that is hugely more dangerous than meeting the handful of friends and family who I know and trust will be doing everything to minimise their exposure to the virus too.

I suspect that's a false premise. It's like telling a secret to someone; you may be certain you're only telling it to one other trustworthy person, but they might do exactly the same. You have no idea whatsoever if those "friends and family whom (you) know and trust" will have become infected nor whom they will have contacted. Is that a risk you're willing to take?

[Dave]

The biggest risk I take is going to the supermarket once a week and that is hugely more dangerous than meeting the handful of friends and family who I know and trust will be doing everything to minimise their exposure to the virus too.

I suspect that's a false premise. It's like telling a secret to someone; you may be certain you're only telling it to one other trustworthy person, but they might do exactly the same. You have no idea whatsoever if those "friends and family whom (you) know and trust" will have become infected nor whom they will have contacted. Is that a risk you're willing to take?

In a word "Yes" Ian.

Family and close friends, of which I have very few, are the precious contacts which make life bearable.
They are sat at home in splendid isolation just as I am.They are taking the same risks as I do...a weekly shop and that's about it.
There is a risk of course, it can't be eliminated totally but it much less of a risk than having stop start lockdowns where people go mad the minute they get the chance and soon the virus is out of control again.

It seems that from next week we will be allowed to meet with one other household.... let's see what else the rules will dictate.
Certainly the Welsh border will remain closed to all. Travel anywhere within Wales permissible to all. The corvid rates in South Wales are amongst the highest in the UK.So where is the sense in that? It's pure politics.

[Hugo]

Dave,  where is this all coming from, it's just nonsense.      Saying that "the trouble is there is a resentment of those that can afford second homes and that's the underlying issue"
It's not the general  public that makes the rules, the Wales Government makes them and those rules should be followed whether people like them or not.    It's nothing whatsoever to do with the people's attitude to second home owners

Secondly what you have said about "the Covid rates in South Wales are amongst the highest in the UK.So where is the sense in that? It's pure politics" how is that political?

There are a lot of rules that are unpalatable but we must abide by them and the actions of Cllr Sam Rowlands and that Facebook Group are just unacceptable in the present circumstances.   Furthermore that Facebook Group should have vetted those speakers before allowing them to address the protesters as it did them no favours at all.

I've attached a link for anyone to watch, it's a 14 minute video of one of the speakers who obviously has a hang up of wearing a face mask.    I watched it for about three minutes and felt like I'd wasted three minutes of my life but we all have our opinions
Click on "Proof that Mask wearing isn't enforceable by Law"

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdlUk_QKGHfhQOd29rDhOlg

[Dave]

We are going around in circles here Hugo!

No, I don't want to waste time watching an argument for not wearing masks as I happily wear mine where necessary in the hope they work no matter how small the benefit might be.

There is no doubt that politics play a big part in all the decision making. Muscle flexing, power seeking, control, there is more than just the risk to health/safety being the concern. Leaders and they lieutenants are playing to keep their voters on their side where they can. It's pretty obvious to me, but if you think not that's fine too.

We all want this virus to go away, we just have different opinions on how things should progress. It won't just vanish of it's own free will so we all have to play a part.Blindly accepting that the rules we are given are the best way forward is not something I accept. I'm sticking to them but some are nonsensical to me.

[Hugo]

I posted that video link for anybody to watch but I don't blame you one bit for not watching it.  The person in the video obviously has a number of issues and that Facebook Group should have been aware of those issues

We are going around in circles here Hugo!    I don't see why Dave because I've tried to explain it as carefully as I can but I'll repeat myself and say it again.    The law in Wales says that " people shouldn't live in a second home if they have a permanent home elsewhere" that's easy enough to understand
Of course people are entitled to have an opinion but if they disagree with the law that opinion is irrelevant, the law is what it is.
From November 9th 2020 the Wales Government are introducing new measures which mean that people from England cannot cross the border into Wales without having a valid reason for doing so.   That obviously excludes second homes, day trips, holidays, spins in the countryside and hikes in Snowdonia etc.
Accordingly people from Wales cannot travel outside of Wales without a valid reason

"There is no doubt that politics play a big part in all the decision making"   you are quite correct and I couldn't agree with you more.   My own thoughts are that when we started with this pandemic a Group representing all the Political Parties should have been set up and
be allowed to work free of any interference from the Central Government, but that is too late now
I think that the First Ministers of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have all approached it cautiously and in a controlled manner and that is evident in their results for Covid
The England Government under the Tory leadership of Boris and perhaps Cummings have taken a more Gung Ho attitude and put wealth before health even if it was done with integrity.   For many weeks now they have not listened to the scientists who were calling for a lockdown at least 4 weeks ago but now have been forced to take immediate action and have a lockdown for four weeks but will probably have that extended according to Michael Gove
With such an important issue like this why can't the Government forget about Party politics and get on with saving lives

[Helig]

I read this and thought how similar it was to the situation in Dumfries and Galloway. There are second homes and holiday homes a plenty here. The second homes have been in use pretty well all the way through. There was an invasion of people from the south of England as well as overseas. There are some people who live in Spain and have second homes here. The holiday homes were closed to visitors in the main. Those that has agents acting weren't let as they blocked off any bookings.

When the last lockdown was lifted, there was a huge influx of people from England all of whom were buying properties in this area. The result is that there are next to no properties available to buy (or rent) now. The prices have gone through the roof and the local people are unable to buy, or rent, due to unaffordability. The only winners have been the estate agents.

The border with England has never been closed which has seen large numbers of people travelling to Carlisle for a drink in a pub. Carlisle has high levels of Covid. Since the pubs in England will be closed from Thursday, the Scottish pubs are open on limited terms, the travel could well be in the other direction. No doubt the virus will be doing the same.

Reports last week were that there were large number of people in the local hospital with Covid and all were from outside the area. This is the trouble with allowing people to travel as many of them bring the virus with them.

I agree with Hugo that we need a consensus approach which means a government of national unity. The Tories have emulated Trump, allowing the virus to run riot putting profit before people.

I am having a bet with a friend as to how many government ministers, or MPs, will break the lockdown rules this time round.

Helig

[Hugo]

I'm sorry to hear that you are suffering in the same way as we are here Helig.   Mull has also mentioned the trouble that the Islanders have with outsiders coming in so we are all in a similar situation.
North Wales is near to the English hot spots of Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham so obviously we are concerned about them spreading the virus here. 
Our First Minister Mark Drakeford has made it quite clear that the border is closed to people coming here from England and also the people from Wales going over to England.     We don't want people sneaking in to Wales under the cover of darkness so I hope that the offenders are dealt with quickly and severely and I hope the Scottish F M does the same to your borders.

My brother lives in Thailand for six months of the year and that country has a population of about 69 million people, three million more than in the UK.     The death toll there is 59 so what has gone so badly wrong in the UK?
It's a mad mad world and lies and incompetence do not help with the present situation

[Hugo]

Welsh police officers stop drivers at check point during firebreak lockdown             

I hope that the North Wales Police follow this example

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/welsh-police-officers-stop-drivers-19211521

[SteveH]

My brother lives in Thailand for six months of the year and that country has a population of about 69 million people, three million more than in the UK.     The death toll there is 59 so what has gone so badly wrong in the UK?
It's a mad mad world and lies and incompetence do not help with the present situation

I believe the Asian countries are aware of what can happen with these types of SARS viruses, and quickly adopted the use of face masks,
a quick search produced this item........

Why has Thailand, with a population greater than that of the UK, been largely spared the catastrophic effects of the Covid-19 pandemic sweeping the nation and much of the world? Social distancing is embedded in Thai culture – Thais rarely touch when greeting, preferring the prayer-like “wai” gesture to a handshake or embrace. Could this custom be at least partly responsible for the country’s low numbers?

There have been no overwhelmed hospitals in the country’s public hospital system. No dead bodies in the streets. No social media postings from frantic doctors or nurses. The country simply acted swiftly, and with a determined force.

Thailand was quick to adopt the use of facemasks, close schools and enforce social distancing on public transport, even before declaring a national state of emergency and curfew, sealing its borders and forbidding interprovincial travel. Is that what prevented the runaway transmission of the virus here?    cont  https://thethaiger.com/news/national/why-are-thailands-covid-19-numbers-so-low

[Dave]

So we all follow the rules because that's what the government tells us we can do.

Just been announced that groups of up to 4 people from 4 different households can meet in a pub or restaurant but not outside in one of their gardens. No apparent foursome bubble needed either so your could meet with up to 21 different people in a week. Work the maths on that out if everyone did the same!!
It's this sort of nonsensical rule that I have been going on about. It's supposedly about regulated supervision and if the pub does as expected they should be insisting on taking tracking details but I as an individual have to choose between a couple of family members or a couple of friends and choose which one I decide to bubble with to allow them to enter my home. I have no wish to go to a pub to meet them, nor meet them all together either and I'm perfectly capable of remembering who has visited should anyone need to be informed if someone gets ill with the dreaded virus. 

[Ian]

So we all follow the rules because that's what the government tells us we can do.

Isn't that the same with all our laws in a democratic society?

Just been announced that groups of up to 4 people from 4 different households can meet in a pub or restaurant but not outside in one of their gardens.

That's after the 'firebreak' ends but not at the moment.

None of this is ideal, of course, and the regulations have to be framed in a way that allows the country to keep functioning. But the latest forecasts foresee a death toll higher than the spring peak and the hospitals, which are normally packed anyway in December / January, being swamped by predicted increases in critical care demands if no action is taken.

[Dave]

So we all follow the rules because that's what the government tells us we can do.

Isn't that the same with all our laws in a democratic society?

Just been announced that groups of up to 4 people from 4 different households can meet in a pub or restaurant but not outside in one of their gardens.

That's after the 'firebreak' ends but not at the moment.

None of this is ideal, of course, and the regulations have to be framed in a way that allows the country to keep functioning. But the latest forecasts foresee a death toll higher than the spring peak and the hospitals, which are normally packed anyway in December / January, being swamped by predicted increases in critical care demands if no action is taken.

Should have mentioned after the firebreak.But, "none of this is ideal" , you're damn right it isn't. Makes a nonsense of the firebreak, makes a nonsense of the on going rules that I mention. Let's pray for a vaccine because all the other efforts are just blowing in the wind.

Yes, in a democracy you should follow the law even when it's an ass. Isn't a democracy where more than a couple of people have an input in the major decision making?