John Jones born 1806, Llandudno. Son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones, Pwllygwichiad

[Helig]

This is a new topic so it might be easier to look at it separately from the other Jones descendants.

I have tried to find John Jones b1806. There are a couple of possibilities but the one I have come across might be the same person.

I think the only way to find him for certain would be to get his marriage with father's name of Peter Jones. That isn't likely to be easy and a search of the local registers for a marriage c1826 onwards might find this. That is assuming he married and it was in the Llandudno area.

There is an entry on the 1851 census in 5 Woods St, Birkenhead. The household is as follows:

John Jones, head, married, age 48 Dock Labourer, born Caernarnarvonshire
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 50, Dock Labourer's wife, born Denbighshire.
William Jones, son, age 15, Sail Maker's apprentice, born Manchester.
Isaac Jones, son, age 14, born Liverpool.
Owen Jones, son, age 12, born Liverpool.
Elizabeth Jones, daughter, age 8, born Liverpool
John Jones, son, age 4, born Liverpool.
Joseph Atkinson, Lodger, age 19, Dock Labourer born Liverpool.

The marriage information for his children might throw some light on the family.

The reason I think this might be him is because of the fact he is shown as born Caernarvonshire; is married to Elizabeth who was born Denbighshire; in the 1841 census at Pwllygwichiad it shows John Jones age 35, born in county; plus an Elizabeth Jones age 35, not born in county. Their ages in that census would have been rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years, so it is possible she was older than him. They are both shown as independent. Their relationship isn't shown but it is possible they were husband and wife. Having said this, I think Robert Jones married an Elizabeth, so was she his wife?

There are numerous marriages for a John Jones in the Llandudno area about the time to be expected for John Jones, c1826 onwards. It is impossible to say for certain if any of them could be him. It would need a search of the parish registers to see the father's name.

I cannot find an entry for a John Jones b1806 in any of the later census returns in Llandudno. It could be that he moved away like some of his siblings. Even searching in the Liverpool area it is impossible to say for certain if any of the John Jones could be him as the places of birth tend to be given as Wales, no specific location.

Another avenue for a search would be to see if the mother of Bri Roberts's ancestor would have sought support from the parish for the maintenance  of her child. These were called Bastardy Bonds and some survive in the local archives. I don't know what records they hold in the Conwy archives but it might be worth enquiring. The father of the child would have been examined to see if he should contribute to the child's upbringing. The parish overseer would endeavour to see that the burden of the child's needs wouldn't fall on the parish.

Helig.

[Bri Roberts]

That is very thoughtful, Helig.

Thank you.

I am not surprised to learn John Jones relocated to Liverpool with him having an illegitimate daughter over in Tywyn.

I accept that the married couple, John and Elizabeth, may well be the same couple on the 1841 census return for Pwllygwichiad because John was born in this county whereas Elizabeth was not.

However, of their children William (15), Isaac (14),and Owen (12), only Owen aged 5 appears on the 1841 Census return.

I wonder where five year old William and four year old Isaac could have been staying?

Would you believe I had always assumed Elizabeth was married to Robert Jones (and not John) because at aged 30 Peter is recorded above John Jones on the Census return who was aged 35?

I have always shared your view about the parish overseer as John Jones is of independent means and Ann Jones, the mother of Mary Ann Jones, is recorded as a pauper on the 1841 Census return for Tywyn and living with her elderly mother, Mary, who was also recorded as a pauper, in one of the alms houses.

For the record, Ann Jones never married.

[Helig]

It is difficult to establish relationships due to the 1841 census being so limited. I cannot be sure that Elizabeth, age 35, isn't related to Robert. On the 1851 census she is aged 45, Robert is 42.

There were a number of marriages for a John Jones in the local area. It might be worth looking at the registers to see names of fathers etc. Freereg doesn't give these usually.

I found marriages as follows:

St Tudno, 13 June 1828, John Jones, bachelor, Llandudno parish to Elizabeth Owen, spinster, Llandudno parish. By Licence. Witnesses were: John Williams and Elizabeth Williams.

The fact they married by Licence indicates they were of some status.

St Hilary, Llanrhos, 16 August 1828, John Jones, bachelor to Mary Roberts, spinster. Witnesses were: Thomas Davies and Eleanor Lester.

Conwy, St Mary and All Saints, 27 June 1832, John Jones married Margaret Williams.

St Hilary, Llanrhos, 24 May 1833, John Jones, bachelor, married Mary Foulkes, witnesses were: John Davies and Jemima Hughes.

St Mary and All Saints Conwy, 23 October 1833, John Jones married Elinor Roberts.

St Hilary, Llanrhos, 2 September 1835, John Jones, widower, married Eleanor Evans, spinster. Witnesses were: Thomas Twist and Elizabeth Owens.

Those are the marriages listed in the Llandudno area from 1826 to 1836.

The 1828 one looks interesting as it is to Elizabeth and By Licence.

Find my Past has linked John Jones to a wife by the name of Margaret in the 1851,1861 and 1871 census returns. They are living in Conwy. John Jones is a Slaterer/Plasterer and born 1806. They have numerous children. I presume this is the Margaret Williams who married a John Jones in Conwy in 1832.

Helig

[Bri Roberts]

It certainly isn’t easy, Helig.

John Jones is a fairly common name and ages in the 1841 Census return were to the nearest 5 years.

I appreciate your research but I must continue to accept that my knowledge of this particular ancestor will have to remain extremely limited.

[Helig]

No, it is sometimes impossible to establish which is your ancestor exactly. I have this problem myself with a gt gt gt grandmother from Ysceifiog. she was Mary Williams born c1790. I have seen the parish registers for that year and there were three babies baptised with that name. I shall never know which one was my ancestor. My Roberts family from Mold are a total nightmare as well.

At least you have a name for the father, most illegitimate births don't show a father's name at all. Have you looked at the marriage certificate for Mary Ann Jones? Is there a father's name shown on that?

Helig

[Bri Roberts]

Yes, Helig.

Mary Ann Jones married locally on the 28 November 1863 and her father is named as John Jones.

However, his occupation is surprisingly down as Labourer.

I am not sure how true that was.

[Helig]

Yes, I should have thought he would have been in a more of a trade, or profession. That made me wonder about the census entry I gave you previously. It is clear that Robert Roberts was well provided for as he was a farmer in the census returns. It could be that having so many children, there was a favourite, or favourites, that John didn't get to do so well from the family.

The marriage between John Jones and Elizabeth Owen by Licence made me think it could well be him as this was usually only possible for well to do people.

Helig.

[Bri Roberts]

At the time of her marriage, Mary Ann Jones was 25 years of age.

Mary Ann had probably never met her father, John Jones, and her Marriage Certificate now required her father’s name and occupation.

I notice Mary Ann Jones’ mother, Ann Jones, signed as a witness and I have always held the opinion that having the father’s name down as John Jones (with the same surname) was far more respectable than leaving a blank space and adding ‘Labourer’ simply helped to hide his true identity.

No doubt, the overseer and/or church wardens at St Hilary’s Church in Llanrhos will have been available to advise after first being involved shortly after Mary Ann’s birth in July 1838 and as noted on her Baptismal Record.