Author Topic: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof  (Read 3178 times)

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Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2019, 09:34:45 AM »
Some very interesting information there, Hugo.

As promised here is another document that I have had for many years because of my own interest in John Jones and Pwllygwichiad.

Please let me know if there are any facts that are helpful.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 10:25:26 AM by Ian »

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2019, 11:48:36 AM »
There is something in The National Library of Wales as well. The link is here:

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This was based on a search for Pwllygwichiad, could there be more for Peter Jones?

I was curious to see who the children were with Elizabeth Jones in the 1841 census. There were John Jones, age 9, Owen Jones, age 5 and Harriet Jones age 3. These were her grandchildren by her son Robert Jones, born 1808. Their baptisms were in St Hilary, Llanrhos and St Tudno and as follows:

John Jones, 16 May 1833, baptised St Hilary, Llanrhos.
Owen Jones, 11 January 1836, baptised St Tudno.
Harriet Jones, 9 September 1838, baptised St Tudno.

The parish registers for the baptisms of Owen and Harriet Jones show Robert Jones as of Pwllygwichiad and a Farmer.

Robert Jones was married to Elizabeth and the marriage appears to have been on 13 November 1831, St Tudno, Robert Jones, bachelor, to Elizabeth Owens, spinster. Witnesses were: Joseph Lawes, Margaret Lawes and Robert Roberts.

It appears Elizabeth Jones was close to her son, Robert. This is borne out by the fact she is living with him and his family in the 1851 census. They are living in Calcot, Holywell, Flintshire. Robert is a Farmer of 100 acres employing 3 labourers. John, Owen and Harriet are there as well as 3 other children of the couple. There is also Elizabeth Jones, widow, age 82, born Llanberis, shown as "Mother of H?", which would be Head, ie Robert Jones. They have 3 employees, one of whom is Jane Owens, age 16, House Servant, born Llanberis.

The Llanberis connection could be significant as Elizabeth Owens, Robert's wife is shown as born Llanberis too. Could Jane be a relative of his wife?

I have been unable to locate a burial for Elizabeth Jones, do you know when and where she was buried?

It wasn't possible to trace Robert Jones there in the 1861 census but he is in Bagillt, Holywell in the 1871.

I searched for Richard Jones b1817 and the only one that might have been him (with wife Elizabeth) was in Liverpool. It is difficult to say for certain if it is the right person.

It is the same for John Jones b1806, I found a census entry for a John Jones in Liverpool, but it isn't possible to say for certain if it is the same man. I will post details again to you can see for yourselves.

I am wary of duplicating searches that have already been done. It seems the information that is required is as follows:

Peter Jones bc1765 - baptism, father's details, further children and marriage to Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, wife of Peter Jones, baptism and death/burial.

Richard Jones b1817 - marriage to Elizabeth, children, census entries after 1851 and death.

Edward Jones b1840 - baptism and 1861 census entry.

There may be clues to the whereabouts of Richard Jones by getting the details of his children's marriages. The certificates should show if he is alive anyway.

I am not familiar with the history of Pwllygwichiad, or the social standing of the Jones family from there. Can someone enlighten me please? Were they are high social standing in the area?

The National Library of Wales has entries for a Will for Peter Jones dated 1835, plus a Bond dated 1834. It isn't possible to say if it is the same person.

Helig.







KHCYMROCANADA

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2019, 11:17:00 PM »
Thanks for all of the above. More fodder for research - and maybe helpful in joining dots between Pwllygwichiad and Yr Ogof Jones’.

Helig - I have no sense that the Pwllgwichiad Jones’ were of high social status.

In the meantime, I believe that I may have filled a couple of my gaps.

After finding the family in Holyhead (1851 Census), I found Richard and family - including the elusive Joseph - in 1855. Several of the children were baptised in Liverpool on the same day in 1855.

This then led me - based on the name shown in another’s tree - to look for and find the marriage (in Liverpool) in 1835 between Richard Jones (father Peter - a farmer) and Elizabeth Cowburne (not Colbourn as indicated in others’ trees). Elizabeth’s father is shown as Edward Cowburne - a mariner.

This may support one theory that the Jones family had non-local connections and so may have dropped off the Caernarvonshire records from time to time? Makes me wonder whether these connections might also predate Peter? If so, might also provide a clue as to where Bri’s John Jones may have gone after 1841?

I also learned that Edward Jones (1841-1905) had a daughter, Ruth, with Mary Roberts, before he married Ellen Evans. Both marriage details are unclear. This now explains, however, how there were 2 children aged 8 (one Richards) with Edward and Ellen in the 1881 census. Not yet figured out what happened to Mary.

Credit for much of the above is due to the work of Mark Parry-Jones (tree on Ancestry) and Ian Parry-Jones (Bri - this is your pjoslo, also has a tree on Ancestry) who, I believe, both descend from Lizzie Jones -  one of Edward’s daughters - who married a Parry-Jones.

KHCYMROCANADA

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2019, 11:40:18 PM »
Re above post.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2019, 11:19:02 AM »
I would just like to add something to the Certificate and that is that Queen Street is now called Cwlach Street and that is a fact because my relatives once lived there.  In fact it is a slightly elevated terrace of 4 little cottages once owned by George Brookes  (pg 170 of the book I have mentioned previously)
The Tithe barn may have been the one mentioned on the land belonging to Pwllygwichiad

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2019, 01:32:17 PM »
This is Queen Street as mentioned on the Certificate

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2019, 03:20:36 PM »
Yes, there is clear evidence of a Liverpool connection to this family. You will recall this is the same as Isaac and Miriam Jones.

I searched the baptisms for Richard and Elizabeth Jones in Liverpool and came up with these:

Martha Jones, baptised 05/03/1851, born 1851.
Mary Jones, baptised 25/01/1852
Samuel Jones, baptised 22/12/1852
Hugh Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Ellen Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Joseph John Jones, baptised 20/05/1855, born 1855.
Harriott Jones, baptised 20/05/1855, born 1852.
Edward Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Elisabeth Jones, baptised 20/05/1855
Jonathon Jones, baptised 20/05/1855.
John Jones, baptised 18/04/1855, born 1854.
Elizabeth Jones, baptised 15/04/1860, born 1860.
Harriett Asquith Jones, baptised 20/01/1861

I think you would need to examine to parish registers to establish whether they are the same couple baptising these children. This would also give you the address where they lived at the time.

The Richard and Elizabeth Jones I found in the 1871 census in Liverpool were living at 14 Dale St, Richard age 52, Labourer born Wales. Elizabeth age 51, born Wales. This couple have no children with them.

This is the problem with the census entries for Liverpool as people from Wales weren't given a specific place of birth, just Wales.

I cannot find John Jones in Liverpool after getting something like him in the census there the other day!

Do you have any idea when and where Richard Jones died? The Ancestry trees show his death as 1875 but no location.

Helig





Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2019, 05:11:45 AM »
Helyg, can I refer you to the first paragraph in my previous post?

Reference was made to a family member, Mark Hughes, who I believe has a lot of the information currently missing.

I am of the opinion that this is the same Mark Hughes who is the Administrator of the Facebook group “Llandudno in Old Photographs”.

Mark was very busy when I last asked him for assistance but that was a number of years ago.

Someone new now asking may have better luck than I did.



Cambrian

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2019, 08:59:16 AM »
Can I just refer to the marriage certificate shown above.  Unfortunately, in this case, the addresses "Queen St" and "Tithe Barn St" are not Llandudno addresses.

The old Liverpool maps on Mapsnls, show St Nicholas' Church, near the Pierhead, is within a very short distance of both these streets.  CofE practice would have shown the name of the resident parish (as Banns would have had to have been read) if one or both of the parties lived out of the parish where the ceremony was performed. As no other parish is mentioned, the conclusion is both streets are within the parish of Liverpool.

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2019, 09:45:00 AM »
The baptisms listed on my previous post are online on the Bishops' Transcripts on Ancestry. These show that the only baptisms for Richard and Elizabeth Jones from Llandudno are those that took place on 20 May 1855. They show Richard to be a Blacksmith and the abode was Atherton Street, Liverpool.

I cannot locate the family in Liverpool in the 1861 census however.

Helig

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2019, 11:09:22 AM »
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Can I just refer to the marriage certificate shown above.  Unfortunately, in this case, the addresses "Queen St" and "Tithe Barn St" are not Llandudno addresses.

The old Liverpool maps on Mapsnls, show St Nicholas' Church, near the Pierhead, is within a very short distance of both these streets.  CofE practice would have shown the name of the resident parish (as Banns would have had to have been read) if one or both of the parties lived out of the parish where the ceremony was performed. As no other parish is mentioned, the conclusion is both streets are within the parish of Liverpool.

Thanks very much for correcting that comment of mine about Queen Street in Llandudno and looking again at the certificate it would confirm the Liverpool address is correct
It has no bearing whatsoever on this thread but I have attached a copy of the 1861 Census showing that my relations lived in Queen Street Llandudno at No 22

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2020, 12:46:41 PM »
The marriage of Joseph Jones took place on 13 March 1881 at St James's Church, Walton on the Hill, Liverpool. The details are:

Joseph Jones, age 24, bachelor, Sailor, residence 4 Bere St, father: Richard Jones, Smith
Mary Bickerstaff, age 22, spinster, residence 53 Mann Street, father: William Bickerstaff, Block Maker

Witnesses were: Jonathon Jones and Rosena Wotton.

1881 census Joseph and Mary are living at 8 Lampart St, Liverpool. The details are:

Joseph Jones, Head, age 24, Mariner, born Liverpool
Mary Jones, wife, age 22, born Liverpool.

1891 census has Joseph Jones living in Upper Mann St, Liverpool, it shows 3 at 83 court there. The details are;

Joseph J Jones, Head, married, age 33, Barge Flatman, born Liverpool
Mary Jones, wife, age 31, born Liverpool
Lydia Jones, daughter, age 7, born Liverpool
William Henry Jones, son, age ??? it has 5 with a line through it and 2 months crossed out. Born Liverpool
Joseph J Jones, son, age 2 months, born Liverpool.

There is a death in Liverpool for Joseph John Jones, in 1926. He was age 70 years.

I am certain of the marriage being the right one but cannot guarantee the census returns are for him as there is more than one person of that name in Liverpool.

Helig.


KHCYMROCANADA

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2020, 09:09:47 AM »
Thank you Helig.

If correct, it will fill in another piece of my tree - although my primary reason in finding Joseph was to confirm that I had the correct Richard as Edward’s father.

Please advise the record source of your finding. The details seem to corroborate that this is the correct Joseph (Father Richard - a blacksmith - and witness Jonathan - his brother?). Before adding to my tree, however, I would like to do a bit more research to try to confirm that the Joseph born/baptised in 1855 is the same one marrying at age 24 in 1881.

You have been more than helpful in my research. Please do not feel that you need to pursue further on my behalf.

I note you have started another thread for Bri Roberts’ ancestor, John Jones. I will follow this with interest.

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2020, 10:14:07 AM »
The information on the marriage of Joseph Jones came from Ancestry. The marriage certificate is available on that site. It is the same for the census returns, both on Ancestry.

Helig

Helig

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Re: Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2020, 10:53:20 AM »
One thing that has just occurred to me is that the information on the marriage certificate for Joseph Jones indicates that Richard Jones was still alive at that time. There is nothing to the effect he was deceased but they don't always state that, so it isn't reliable.

Helig