Llandudno Jones's - Pwll y Gwichiad and/or Yr Ogof

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you Bri Roberts. I presume this is from the book you recommended? (… Before the Hotels). I have ordered a copy.

[Bri Roberts]

I don’t think it is.

It was probably given to me sometime we’ll before that book was published.

Anyway, credit for recommending Chris Draper’s book came from Hugo.

I simply provided the ISBN to help you purchase it.

[KHCYMROCANADA]

My mistake. Sorry.

[Helig]

Just a few snippets.

One thing that I didn't mention which may be of interest to you is that there was a couple by the name of Peter and Elizabeth Jones baptising children in Llandudno in the 1860s. Could they be related to your family?

I noticed this one too: St Tudno, 9 September 1838, baptised Robert, son of Peter and Mary Jones.

St Tudno, 31 March 1865, baptised William, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones and Mary, daughter of Peter and Elizabeth Jones.

I wondered whether you might be related to the Yr Ogof Jones by Miriam Owen's line. She had links to Gyffin and Dwygyfylchi.

In the 1861 census I saw a family living at Gogarth Isaf, the head is Richard Jones, widower, age 92, Farmer of 30 acres, born Gyffin. He had a daughter Ellin age 57, unmarried and a son, Richard, age 52, unmarried, both born Llandudno. His servants included Margaret Jones, age 14, born Llangwstenin, and Joseph Jones, age 12, born Eglwys Rhos. On the next page there  is Isaac Jones, living in "Cave by Gogarth", unmarried, age 50 and occupation Boatman, born Amlwch.

Helig


 

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you to Helig, Bri Roberts  and Hugo. All of your input is incredibly useful.

Not only am I new to this forum, but also to genealogy - so I am finding it challenging to keep all the names and dates clear in my mind - particularly with so many similar names.

Helig, your last post may help connect some of the dots for me. I need to do more research based on this info. Too many Jones’!!

Having re-checked the tree I “inherited” from my mother, it appears some items may have been incorrect, maybe having been copied over, without verified sources, from others’ trees.

Here is what (I believe), I know:

My Gt. Gt. Grandfather - Edward Jones (1840/1 - 1905) lived in Hirael, Bangor and had seven children between 1874 and 1888, including my Gt. Grandfather, Richard (1877-1917).

All of the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census’ have his age as ~60 and his birth place shown as Penmaenmawr. I have not been able to find/confirm his pre 1881 location(s) or his birth details.

His obituary (incorrectly?) indicates that his age was 60 when he died (all census info suggest ~65) and that his father (my Gt. Gt. Gt. Grandfather) was Richard Jones of Pwllygwichiad Farm, Llandudno. No details of his mother. I am unable to confirm Richard’s details. I am currently presuming that he is the Richard baptised in Llandudno in 1817 (to parents Peter and Elizabeth Jones of Pwllgwichiad). His birth date seems about right and, so far, is the only Richard I have been able to connect to Pwllygwichiad.

Edward’s obituary also indicates that Edward had a brother, Joseph (born 1835/1850?), who came from Liverpool to attend his funeral. I have not found him yet.

The linkage between the Yr Ogof Jones’ and the Pwllygwichiad Jones’ still eludes me. Two Isaac Jones’ - one from Amlwch and one from Liverpool - who both married a Miriam? I am confused!

I am also still struggling to understand the actual timing and changing of address names (as reflected in the census’) for the Pwllygwichiad Farm location as building development occurred. Gogarth Isaf? Morfa?

I am going to take a break and intend to read the Llandudno Before the Hotels book over Christmas and plan to revisit this particular dead end in the New Year. I have a few others to focus on!

In the meantime, thank you all again and best wishes to all for Christmas and New Year.

[Hugo]

I hope that you enjoy the book and have a good read over the Christmas Holiday period.     It must be confusing for you with so many similar names but our combined local knowledge may help to locate your relatives
In the New Year  I'll have a look at the Baptism records for Llandudno that are in the Conwy Archives, they go back quite a long way and may hold some info of use for you.

[Helig]

I have searched the census returns for Edward Jones bc1841 and in the 1891 he appears to be living at 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor. Is that the right person please? It tends to fit with the information you have given.

There is a Grant of Probate for him showing he died on 6 April 1905. He was of 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor and a Boatman. Probate was granted to Ellen Jones, widow and Richard Jones, Fishmonger.

I think I have him in earlier census returns but will check before I send details.

Helig.

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Yes, Helig, that is him. Thank you.

Richard is his son (my Gt. grandfather) and Ellen is his wife. Her second marriage.

I have found Edward, in Bangor, in the 1881, 1891 and 1901 census’.

It’s his birth details and the period between 1841 and 1881 that I am missing.

I found an Edward (of the right age) showing up in the 1851 census in Holyhead. His father’s (Richard) details also fit - age/born Llandudno. It is, however, indicated that Edward was born in Bangor, not Penmaenmawr, as in the later census records.

So - not sure whether this is him - or why Richard & family would be living in Holyhead. Railway? Richard’s wife, Elizabeth, is also shown as Bangor born - so not sure that’s correct. I presume that declarations of birth location are not always accurate?

If this is the correct family, I have not yet been able to confirm where they headed after 1851.

Still no Joseph showing up.

Albeit I said I was stopping for Christmas, my research continues! This is way too frustrating (and addictive) a hobby!

[Helig]

Just to clear up one matter concerning Isaac Jones. There is only one person of that name who married Miriam Owen. It is the census returns which have conflicting information on his place of birth. Some of these show Liverpool and others show Amlwch, Anglesey. The Family Trees on Ancestry show he came from another place on Anglesey.

The location of Pwllygwichiad farm is Morfa according to the census returns for 1841 and 1851. Morfa means marsh, so it was close to the sea and fields which existed in those days. Gogarth Isa was situated in another area close to where the West Shore is today. It would have been close to the remains of Gogarth Abbey:

http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/965.html

If the details I have are correct, Edward Jones married Ellen Evans in Anglesey Registration District in 1873.

Are they together in Bangor in the 1861 census? They are servants in the household of Thomas Lewis, head, married, age 32, General Merchant. They are at Frondeg Cottage, Bangor. It shows Ellen Evans, age 27, Servant, born Bangor, plus Edward Jones, age 21, Servant, born Bangor. I note that their ages in this don't agree with those in the 1891 census.

Helig

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you for the clarifications.

Good to know that there is only one Isaac Jones - born in Liverpool (correct?).

His birth location might explain whether subsequent generations visit/stay with his relatives and drop off the local records?

The Edward/Ellen marriage details are, I believe, correct. Ellen Evans (1846/Red Wharf Bay) was previously married to Owen Richards (in 1865) - so Edward and Ellen would not have been together in the census’ before 1881.

[Bri Roberts]

Pwyllygwychiad 1841

Elizabeth Jones, age 70, Farmer, born in county.
Robert Jones, age 30, Farmer, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 30, Independent, not born in county.
John Jones, age 35, Independent, born in county.
John Jones, age 9, born in county
Owen Jones, age 5, born in county.
Harriet Jones, age 3, not born in county

Any further information on my ancestor will be most welcome.

[Helig]

The location of Isaac Jones's birth is open to speculation. On the 1871 and 1881 census returns he states it is Liverpool and on the 1861 it has Amlwch. The Family Trees for him on Ancestry show he was born in elsewhere in Anglesey. At present it isn't possible to find any baptism for him which is certain. There are baptisms on Freereg for Isaac Jones baptised Holyhead, St Cybi, on 30/07/1810, son of Richard and Elizabeth Jones. Also, 29/03/1813, baptised Isaac Jones, son of Hugh Jones and Elizabeth Perry at Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf.

The illegitimate daughter of Miriam Owen was born in Liverpool in 1860, so there was a connection to there.

I have found Ellen Jones in the 1911 census, she is still living at 2 Water St, Hirael, Bangor. I noticed that she lived there whilst married to Owen Richards. They are there in the 1871 census with a son, William, age 1 and daughter, Margaret, age 3.

I am a bit intrigued by the occupation of Edward Jones shown as Naturalist in the 1881 census.

I wonder if Edward Jones is in Dwygyfylchi in the 1841 census. The Household is:

Richard Jones, age 20, Smith, born in county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 25, born in county.
Peter Jones, age 3, born in county.
Edward Jones, age 7 months, born in county.

The location looks to be Penman Isa.

This appears to be the same family living in Holyhead in the 1851 census. Richard Jones was age 35 and a Blacksmith in that census. As the year of birth was rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years in the 1841, he could have been older than 20 then. His wife, Elizabeth, was age 39 in 1851. The age of Elizabeth is older than Richard, the same as the 1841. They also have a son, Peter, age 14 in 1851.

There is a baptism for Richard Jones in St Tudno, Llandudno, on 11 May 1817, son of Peter and Elizabeth Jones. I think this is the person you suspect of being Edward's father.

Edward would have left home by 1861 but his family should be around. This search will be for another day!

There is a family in Llandudno with a son named Edward Jones, and he is aged 1 in the 1841 census. This is headed by Robert Jones age 25, Copper Miner, not born in county. They are living in Price St.

Helig.

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you Helig.

As you state, the Isaac Jones origin is still unclear. I am not spending too much time on the Yr Ogof lineage until/if I can make the clear link to the Pwllygwichiad family.

Ellen Jones (ex Richards, nee Evans) lived at 2 Water Street prior to Edward moving in. I noticed that Ellen’s youngest by Owen Richards shares the same birth year as Edward’s youngest? Hmm?

Not entirely sure what happened to Owen Richards - although think I found one who died in 1875 who was in the Denbigh mental hospital.

I saw the same Dwygyfylchi details. Still not yet able to verify the links from Peter to Edward.

[Helig]

This was found by pure chance, burial in Llandudno of Peter Jones of Pwll y Gwichiaid, buried 29 March 1833, age 67 years and 7 months. The spelling of Pwll Y G. is as shown in the burial register. Same for the age which is much more precise than usual.

That puts his year of birth as c1765.

Children baptised in Llandudno for Peter and Elizabeth Jones as follows:

07/07/1806 John Jones
02/04/1808 Robert Jones
11/05/1817 Richard Jones


A Peter Jones was baptised in Llandudno on 19/09/1807, son of William and Mary Jones.

There is a marriage in Gyffin parish on 06/02/1792, Peter Jones, singleman and Elizabeth Evans, sinlgewoman, both of this parish. Both bride and groom made their mark, Witnesses were: Robert Williams and Richard Williams.

I found a baptism in Gyffin 23/09/1792 Elizabeth Jones, d/o Peter and Elizabeth Jones. Register states Peter Jones was a Miner.

There may be more but it isn't allowing me to do an advance search with Peter Jones as the father.

Helig

[KHCYMROCANADA]

Thank you Helig - and welcome to the rabbit hole!

So - based on what we currently believe/know - and this may be all we will know - I am going to go (at least for now) with Edward Jones' father being the Richard Jones of Pwllygwichiad that was baptised in 1817 in Llandudno to Peter Jones (~1765-1833) and his wife Elizabeth Evans (married in 1792 - further details TBD).

Given the ages of the several children believed to have been baptized to Peter and Elizabeth, I presume Elizabeth must have been several years younger than Peter. Peter would have been 52 when Richard was born/baptised.

I am then assuming that Richard Jones was living in Dwygyfylchi at the time of the 1841 census - with wife Elizabeth (details TBD) and sons Peter (~1838) and Edward (~1841).

The family next appears to show up in Holyhead in the 1851 census - with additional children Hugh (~1842), Elizabeth (~1844), Jonathan (~1846) and Ellen (~1849).

(Still no indication of the brother Joseph mentioned in Edward's obituary - and no other siblings are mentioned.)

So far, there is no indication of Richard and his family's whereabouts after 1851. Possible relocation to Manchester/Liverpool?

Edward next shows up in the 1881/1891 and 1901 census' in Bangor - married (in 1875) to Ellen Evans.

If this is the correct lineage, this would seem to kill off my Yr Ogof connection (unless there is a later link) since Peter's birth (1765) predates the arrival of Isaac and his subsequent marriage to Miriam by a few decades.

Diolch eto i bawb. Nadolig Llawen a Blwyddyn Newydd Dda