Author Topic: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno  (Read 9791 times)

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Offline BrianP

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 09:44:28 pm »
I have tried to find both Elinor Jones and Jane Wynne, living in Llandudno in 1881, but not successful .

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 08:58:49 am »
Thanks Brian for having a go at tracing both of those people,   I had tried numerous ways without any luck and I was starting to think that I was missing something.
Perhaps Osian can post those Census records he has and it may help in the search


Offline Osian

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 09:59:11 am »
Thank you for all that time and effort. As I stated in my previous post, Jane Wynne and Eleanor Jones lived in Llansannan not Llandudno. The only people that I’m interested in that lived Back of George’s Crescent are John and Mary Jones and their baby son, Edward. His father was a Butcher.

One or both parents must have died - because Edward was raised with his Grandmother (Jane) and his Aunt (Eleanor) in my family home in Llansannan. There is a Census record showing people with same names and matching dates living for a time in Llanddulas - but, thus far, I’ve not been able to find if they are my relatives nor why they’re living in Llanddulas. Finding Death Certificates for people named John and Mary Jones produces reams and reams of possibilites!!


Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2019, 11:31:40 am »
The Census Records that I refer to in my previous post were those that I found when trawling through sheets and sheets of records in Llandudno for circa 1875.  I have not found one that shows either of his parents (John and Mary Jones) living there.  Frustrating!!  His mother, Mary, was from Llansannan and my Grandfather eventually moved
 - and he is clearly shown as living there in 1891 (but with his Grandmother and Aunt) and again in 1901 (with his Aunt, his wife, Jane) and a younger John Jones.

I am a bit confused about a previous posting you made Osian as it says that he ( Edward )   was living with his Grandmother  (Jane Wynne ) and Aunt  ( Eleanor Jones ) in Llandudno in 1891  but I can't find any of them there and by the sounds of it neither can BrianP.

There were four Jones families living in the street,  Evan,  Frederick,  David and a John Jones who lived at Burlington Cottage.      I am not 100% certain that Burlington Cottage was actual in the back of St George's Crescent.

Before I do any other searches it would be appreciated if you could post on here the Llandudno Census records that you have so that it makes it easier for me to look in certain records

The town of Llandudno in those days had two parishes Llandudno and Eglwysrhos and the rear of St George's Crescent is only less than 200 yards away so it is possible that some records may be in the Parish of Eglwysrhos




Offline Osian

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2019, 03:35:03 pm »
A million and more thanks for all your endeavours in this regard.  I'm extremely impressed with the effort that has been made to try and help me find my Great, Great  Grandparents and to locate the actual  property where my Grandfather, Edward Jones, was born in 1875.

When I referred to Census Records for Llandudno, I was merely confirming that I had actually seen the address "Back of George's Crescent" listed - none of them had any connection whatsoever with my search. This was just to show that my Grandfather's birthplace could have been listed as "Back of George's Crescent' and not as "Back of Mostyn Street".

The 1891 Census shows Edward Jones living in Llansannan - with his Grandmother and with his Aunt.  What happened to his parents since his birth in Llandudno?  Did they move to Llanddulas - as a  Census Return shows a Mary, John, Edward and another John (my Grandfather's brother) living in Tai Newyddion, Llanddulas.  This Return also confirms that this Mary Jones was born in Llansannan - which got me thinking that, perhaps, John and Mary Jones sadly passed away shortly afterwards and that Edward was brought up in Llansannan by his Grandmother, Jane Wynne, and by his Aunt, Eleanor Jones.

All that I am trying to do is to uncover the journey and its circumstances that my Grandfather undertook from his birthplace in Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno, to Llansannan.  To accomplish that task, I need to find a record of him and his parents living in Llandudno circa 1875 - a record of his Birth Certificate in the County Archives and on 'Ancestry' and/or 'Find my Past' would be a great start (even though I have his Birth Certificate!). 

Again, thank you most sincerely for what you've done.  Please don't let me take any more of your valuable time.  I'll visit the County Archives again next week and will also check records for John and Mary Jones too.  I'll visit the Church in Llanddulas - to see if I can locate graves for a John and Mary Jones. 

Cheers to you all.  You are first calss at what you do.


Offline Meleri

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2019, 03:53:21 pm »
Osian if you are going to the Archive next week give them a ring first, as they are preparing to move to the Conwy Culture Centre in Conwy Town & it's opening early next month, they have cut the normal opening days to prepare for the move.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2019, 04:35:32 pm »
Meleri,  it's only open now on Wednesdays and Thursdays and they are having a "leaving do" on the 13th December 2019.    Unfortunately I'm unable to go there on that date

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2019, 04:51:53 pm »
Osian,  it's nice to try and help someone but apart from that I do enjoy looking at old records so if you want any help or advice then please do not hesitate to post anything on here

You have mentioned visiting the Church in Llanddulas to try and locate the graves but an easier option would be to visit the Conwy Archives first of all.      They have burial records for each Church in the Conwy County and the Indexes list all the people who have been buried and have headstones.   The indexes are good, the names of the people are listed alphabetical so are easy to find, they also list places where the deceased lived and give a grave number and location so it could save you a lot of time.

When I go back again to the Archives I'll have another look and if anything turns up then it'll be posted on here.    When I had a look at the rates book there were a number of stables in the street but now the stables have gone and been replaced by car parks

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2019, 02:44:52 pm »
Osian,  I went to the Library this morning to have a go on Ancestry and Find My Past ( it's free there ) and found those  Census records for 1881 and 1891 that you refer to and I also found the 1871 Census for Jane Wynne.    Mary Jones was listed there as a niece aged 18 ( born C1853 )

In the 1881 Census John and Mary are married and living at 2 Tai Newyddion with Edward and John.     Unfortunately I didn't make a note of the town as I had to dash off before the Traffic Warden came around.     You mentioned that it was in Llanddulas but I haven't been able to find that address on Google but as John was born in Eirias  I did find an address there, that old Township of Eirias is now Old Colwyn and the cottages are in Tan Lan.
I'll have to go back to the Library to check on that

In 1871 Mary was single so she must have married John sometime between 1871 and 1875 but I haven't found out when.   After the date of marriage they must have been living in Llandudno at that time and then moved on to Tai Newyddion

What happened to the family after that, that resulted in Edward being with his Grandmother is a mystery but I did a lot of various searches online and the name John Jones bricklayer of Eirias came up on the other searches I did, but which one it was I'm not sure so I'll go back again to check

Offline Helig

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2019, 09:59:12 am »
There are street directories, plus trade directories of Llandudno going back for some years. It might be worth having a look at those when you visit the archives. They usually have a name index as well as a street index. I know they used to keep some in the library in Llandudno too.

There would be some for Colwyn Bay area but as that is under Denbighshire, they would be in the archives for Denbighshire I presume. There may be some in the library in Colwyn Bay.

Helig

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2019, 10:39:25 am »
Hi Helig,   those street indexes are good but they only have a small number of them and the earliest is 1911.    In fact the indexes cover the Three Towns area  Colwyn Bay,  Llandudno and Conwy and as you have said are usually an easy way to trace people and property

I've looked at the rates book for 1882 but Edward was living in Tai Newyddion by 1881 by then and the earlier rates book is for 1872 so unless John and Mary had married before then they won't appear in that earlier rates book either.

I'm going to look at a couple of things again to try and help Osian put the pieces together

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2019, 01:12:44 pm »
Osian,   I've been back to the Library and had a look at some Census records, you may be aware of them but I'll post the info on here in any case.   What can be confusing is the fact that names of places have changed over the years, especially the area from Rhos on Sea to Old Colwyn.

What I looked at first was the 1881 Census that you know about and 2 Tai Newyddion is in Old Colwyn and not Llanddulas.   The Church near there is St Catherine's

I looked at the 1871 Census for John Jones and found him living with John Davies aged 30 and his wife Elizabeth.    They lived at 6 Church Walks Llandrillo yn Rhos and that is where the confusion sets in.   Nowadays Llandrillo Yn Rhos is Rhos On Sea but the Parish Of Llandrillo covered a vast area.     I think that this Church Walks was in Old Colwyn and very near to Tai Newyddion
Anyway John Jones then aged 16 and from Eirias was working and living as a butcher with John Davies

I then had a look at the 1891 Census and found John Jones,  Mary Jones and John T ( may be Thomas ) who was aged 7.    They lived at 17 Ivy Street Colwyn Bay and John was a Butcher

In the 1901 Census I found Mary Jones who was then aged 46 and a widow.    She had moved back to Llansannan and was working as a housekeeper at home
At the Chapel address of Mount Pleasant Llansannan was  Robert Vaughan a widower aged 80 and retired farmer born in Llansannan.  Also there was Robert's son William Vaughan, a single man aged 46 and he was born in Llansannan too.    According to the Census records all three just spoke only Welsh.   There was no John Thomas Jones who would have been 17 then at this address

Now all that info doesn't help to solve Osian's original request about " Rear of St George's Crescent"  but it would be interesting to find out when John and Mary got married because the only other rate book available in the Archives was for 1872.     If Edward was born there in 1875 then most families of that time had their child Baptised and usually that was quite soon after the birth.    They lived in the Parish of Llandudno and I couldn't find any entry there but it is possible that the Baptism was done in Llanrhos Church instead so I'll have a look at that register when I next go there

Offline Helig

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2019, 10:48:06 am »
There is a marriage on Freereg, St Tudno, Llandudno, John Jones married Mary Jones on 26/09/1874. John was aged 20 and Mary was 22. I don't know if that fits with their ages on the census returns. Looking at Hugo's last post, I doubt this is right.

Another marriage in Colwyn St Catherine, 06/04/1869, John Jones to Mary Humphreys. No other details given.

I see that Mary Jones was born Llansannan, so it would be possible they married in her parish.

Is it possible their marriage was in a non conformist chapel? Likewise a baptism for Edward Jones? That would explain why his baptism couldn't be found. From the details on Genuki, is appears that there are no records for the non conformist chapels in Llandudno in the archives.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Llandudno

Helig


Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2019, 11:35:54 am »
Thanks very much for your search Helig, it is really appreciated and may be very helpful.

We can discount the marriage at St Catherine's Church Old Colwyn in 1869 as both people were single in the 1871 Census also Mary's maiden name was Jones as was her married name

However the marriage in Llandudno in 1874 looks promising.    The ages are very similar to those on the Census records and are worth following up.     We know that John was younger than Mary and Census ages are really just a guide as they can be out by a year or so

If they married at St Tudno's that would explain the Llandudno connection and it would mean that there are records of Banns etc there.  The dates also correspond possibly with the birth of Edward.       :-[
Anyway it'll be worth another trip to the Archives
Thanks again

Offline Hugo

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Re: Back of George's Crescent, Llandudno
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2019, 04:00:42 pm »
Thanks Helig for your previous post and as a result of it I was able to find the entry in the Marriage Register.

It's not the definite proof of the marriage between Osian's relatives but it looks positive and  it is certainly something to work on.      I made more searches and found that Southerland House where John was living was in Mostyn Street Llandudno.     Now Mary's address is not so easy to pinpoint as there were a few houses of that name in various Streets but the most probable is  at Penmaen View,  38 Mostyn Street  Llandudno as it was a business address but with rooms over the place   ( that was also the former address of Mostyn Estates )

I looked at the Baptism records for Eglwysrhos and there was no entry for Edward in that Register