Author Topic: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst  (Read 3408 times)

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Offline jom

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Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« on: May 05, 2019, 02:11:32 am »
Hi folk

Just wondered when anyone might be next in the archives, if they could look up a burial / death, for me.  I'm not even sure it would be in the Llandudno archives though as it's Llanrwst.  I'd be quite keen to know the details on Thomas WILLIAMS whose death was registered Jan - Mar Qtr 1841 Llanrwst Volume 27 Page 146, aged 50.  Particularly keen to know of any relative, his occupation and or residence.  I'm assuming of course, he was buried there.

I'm wondering if he might just be the husband of Emma (EVANS) (and father of John and Mary) who was a shoemaker (From Emma's death cert., John's marriage cert., Mary and John's Baptism records).
Thomas and Emma were married at Caerhun in 1812.  She was of Llanddoget Parish in 1812 and Thomas was of Llanrwst parish in 1812.  Emma died 20 Jul 1860 Scotland Street Llanrwst noted as being a widow, aged 88.  Mary was baptised Caerhun 1814 and John was baptised 1817 Caerhun.  They lived in Roe Wen

John WILLIAMS went on to marry Martha ELLIOTT of Daventry (Hugo has very kindly found and photographed their grave in St. Tudno's previously) and lived at the Old Telegraph Inn.  It's Thomas I'm keen to find though.

Any help would be most welcome


Offline Meleri

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2019, 02:32:44 pm »
I have had a look on FMP at the burials for Llanrwst on the Denbigh register for 1841 & the nearest I can find is Thomas Williams age 50 born 1791 was buried 26th Junes 1841 at Ysbyty Ifan. This can't be the one you are looking for even though the year born & death are correct, as you have stated the Thomas you are looking for died in the 1st Quarter. I can only suggest you buy the death certificate of the one you mention to see if it is the correct one.
On The 1841 Census Mary & John are living with Emma at Chapel Street Llanrwst, this Census was taken 6th June 1841 so there is a good possibility this is the right family, as Thomas is missing. On the 1851 Census Emma is a pauper living at Scotland Road Llanrwst with her daughter Mary & Granddaughter also Mary.


Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2019, 01:52:07 am »
Many thanks Meleri.  I suspect you're right and that I will need to bite the bullet and buy the certificate.  I have several Thomas WILLIAMS' death certs already.  None of which seem right  :-\

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2019, 06:32:49 am »
The use of Quarters relate to the Quarter that the event (BMD) was registered in as opposed to the Quarter that the event actually occurred. So the death could possibly have occured in December 1840. Do you know the names of Thomas William?

Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2019, 10:53:16 pm »
Thank you for your comments Downunder.

I bit the bullet and got the certificate but as suspected, isn't the chap for whom I am looking.  Hey ho.  Still a brick wall.  By the way, his name is as I posted Thomas and surname WILLIAMS but very many thanks for the thoughts

Offline Hugo

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 03:06:31 pm »
This is just an observation Jom but which certificate did you order?       The reason I'm asking is because your original posting refers to the Jan to March Q and you mention  Vol 27  pg 146.
I've just had a look at BMD  and if the birth was registered in the March Q then it should be on pg 149


Deaths Dec 1840   (>99%)
WILLIAMS    Thomas        Llanrwst    27   128     Scan available - click to view
Deaths Mar 1841   (>99%)
WILLIAMS    Thomas        Llanrwst    27   149     Scan available - click to vie
w
Deaths Jun 1841   (>99%)
Williams    Thomas        Llanrwst    27   146     Scan available - click to view

Offline Hugo

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 05:36:09 pm »
As an add on to my previous post, Meleri mentioned the Thomas Williams who was buried in Ysbyty Ifan and there appear to be two entries with the same details and there is a possibility that they are just  duplicated
However that is the only entry that comes any where near the age of 50 mentioned in your original post.     The Burial Index for Ysbyty Ifan I believe is in the Conwy Archives so I will have a look at that index and see what info is in it


I've just looked at the Find My Past records and they do have the same two burials there at Ysbyty Ifan but because I don't subscribe to it I couldn't look any further so it has to be the Archives when I can get there

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 07:20:47 am »
The two entries for Ysbyty Ifan do relate to the same person. The images attached to these entries are different however. The first is of Page 50 and the second an image of Pages 50 and 51 side by side. 



Offline Hugo

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 04:01:56 pm »
I had a look in the Archives at the Burial Index for Ysbyty Ifan but this Thomas Williams is not the person you are looking for, his wife was called Ann
While I was there I looked at a number of Burial Indexes (Llanrwst has 4 Cemeteries ) and could find no record of your Thomas Williams, so the search continues.

Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 03:32:30 am »
Dear Hugo, Meleri and Downunder
Thank you all for your comments, help and searches.  You're all most kind

Having internet access only I have been searching the FreeBMD and the GRO sites to try to pare down the list of possibles.

Hugo: The Dec Qtr 1840 Llanrwst V27 P128 was 86 years old.  I don't know Thomas' age at death but he'll have been born before 1795 as he married in 1812 and had Mary by Emma in 1814 and John in 1817.  This would mean he'd have been 50 when he fathered Mary and 53 for John. 
The Mar Qtr 1841 V27 P149 was aged 0 so obviously not that Thomas
The Jun Qtr 1841 V27 P146 Aged 50 is the one I bought, but this chap was a farrier whereas mine was a shoemaker at one time. I believe this is also the Thomas you have all been suggesting but turned out to be married to Ann and so have all discounted, rightly

Meleri: Very many thanks but as from my research noted above and yours, Hugo's and Downunder's this is not my man :(

Downunder: Thank you too.  As you see it turned out he was a farrier!!

The 1841 Census for Emma doesn't state whether or not she was widowed by then but it does say in the 1851 census that she was or at least my interpretation of the squiggle is Wdr.  It also states she was widowed by the time she died in 1860 mentioning him as having been a shoemaker, as does his son John's marriage certificate for 1865 (though this only states his occupation not the fact that he was deceased)

At least I have ruled a few out with your significant help!!

I am not certain he died in the Llanrwst district and have taken a leap of faith with Emma living as head of the household in at Tre Y Dre, Llanrwst in 1841

Having looked at the Llanrwst Registrations, IF he died after Sep Qtr 1837 then these are those potentials I have left to investigate

1840 Dec Qtr V 27 P 128 Aged 86 - seems too old
1841 Jun Qtr V27 P 146 Aged 50 is the farrier
1847 Dec Qtr V27 P127 Aged 84 - therefore bn abt 1763 so again seems too old
1849 Jun Qtr V27 P 174 Aged 71 - therefore bn abt 1778 - possible and will investigate him
1850 Jun Qtr V27 P162 Aged 54 - therefore bn abt 1796 - possibly too young in view of Emma's age? I BELIEVE she may have been bn abt 1775.  This makes Emma abt 37 when she married though.  This date is reached from the 1851 census and her death cert
1853 Jun Qtr V11b P302 Age 84 - therefore bn abt 1769 - but he'd have been alive in 1851 census.

I can't find an obvious Thomas on any census, so of course he may have died before registration!!!!!

I have 2 x Certificates for Thomas WILLIAMSs who died in Conway reg district.  These were
Conway 1857 Jun Qtr  Died 3 Apr 1857 Aged 58 a shoemaker of Old road, Llandudno but can't find him on any census returns (could have been a journeyman) and I believe he would have been too young
The other is Conway 1841 Dec Qtr Died 15 Nov 1841 Age 72 at Felin Ucha Caerhun and was a labourer.  This chap is not out of the question as my Thomas children were born Roewen / Caerhun.  However why wasn't he with Emma in 1841? I haven't been able to find him on the census for 1841 either.  I appreciate he's not a shoemaker but may have lost dexterity and just laboured instead? 

Certainly an enigma wrapped in a conundrum!!!  Thoughts, questions, theories most welcome :'(

Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2019, 03:59:16 am »
Blow me down ... Just found a Thomas WILLIAMS Labourer aged 60 living with Servants Thomas ROBERTS aged 15 and Ellen ROBERTS aged 20 at Tallybont, Tre Y Dre, (part of Scotland Street, Llanrwst) Page 1!! :o

and a second one in Scotland Street 1841 Page 8 I think also age 60 also a labourer with a servant Ann JONES aged 30.  Was a bit slow on the uptake over the years to have thought of this search! Doh :-[ :roll:

Emma (aged 65) was in Chapel Street, Tre Y Dre, with children Mary and John (page 18) and then in 1851 in Scotland Street which is also where she died

SO if one of these is her husband then bearing in mind ages were not at all accurate on the 1841 census due to the rounding to the nearest 5 years
1. why were they living in separate households?
2. could he therefore be the Thomas who died aged 71 in 1849 Jun Qtr Vol 27 Page 174  :-\

Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2019, 04:16:10 am »
Just checked FMP at found a couple of burial records
1. 1849 Jun Qtr death reg was buried Llanrwst parish Age 71 abode Capel Curig.  No occupation?
2. 1850 Jun Qtr death reg was buried Llanrwst parish age 54 abode brewery. No occupation Probably too young
3. 1848 burial age 50 of Bryn Morfydd.  No occupation but probably too young
 ???

Offline Helig

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2019, 09:51:28 am »
Freereg has a burial for Thomas Williams in Llanwrst as follows:

St Grwst, 14 February 1855, Thomas Williams, age 73 years.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5c8401d9f493fd70bef03b22/thomas-williams-burial-denbighshire-llanrwst-1855-02-14?locale=en

That might just fit with your Thomas, bearing in mind the 1841 census rounded ages up, or down, to the nearest 5 years.

It looks odd to me that a Labourer is living with servants, or a servant. Was this a polite way of describing living with an unmarried female back then?

I have seen a married couple living apart in the 1800s in one line in my tree. They lived in separate houses and in this case the wife had a lodger who she subsequently married after her husband died. I suppose that was their only option as there was no divorce.

Helig

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2019, 02:00:59 pm »
Helig,

I think "servant" was used as a more generic term in those days and covered all sorts and conditions of people.  It could be they were people who lived with Thomas but worked elsewhere on a daily basis rather than being his domestic "servants". 

Offline jom

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Re: Burial record Thomas WILLIAMS 1841 Llanrwst
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2019, 03:18:27 am »
Hi Helig and Cambrian

Yes, I agree that the servants are highly unlikely to have been the servants of both the Thomas WILLIAMS.  More likely lodgers, boarders or even relations.  Having re read my post I say why you might think I thought they were servants to those households.  Sorry.

Helig, I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that my Thomas was deceased by the 1851 census which would exclude the 1855 record you mention.  I have SO MANY variables that I have to take something on trust for the moment.  I too have had family members in a separate household for a variety of reasons.  Helping the family of offspring, living apart but can't divorce etc.  I have also had members logged in 2 different households on the same census!

Thank you both for your suggestions so far.  Plenty more lines to investigate methinks!!

Interestingly, I have found a Thomas WILLIAMS who was had an alias of Thomas JONES.  He was sentenced to 3 months imprisonment for bigamy in 1843, Denbigh.