Author Topic: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.  (Read 12113 times)

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Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 07:03:23 pm »
Has the Baptism record got an address Helig?

Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2019, 10:47:21 am »
No, there is nothing shown other than Llangelynin, names of parents and date. I haven't see  the parish register, this is a transcription on Ancestry and Freereg.

Helig


Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2019, 11:41:00 am »
I found an Edward Williams, born Llangelynin, in census returns for 1841 and 1851. It shows he was born 1839, in Llangelynin. In 1841 he is living in Pwllyrnoch, Llangelynin, in the household of John and Mary Roberts, both age 60 and John shown as Farmer. Cannot find him in 1851 but he seems to be in Llechan, Caerns in 1861. A servant in the household of David Griffiths, Farmer of 24 acres.He is aged 22 and born Llangelynin.

In the 1871 what appears to be the same Edward Williams is living in Pool Lane, Conwy, age 31 and a Mason, born Llangelynin. He is married to Lydia, age 29, born Salatyn, Shropshire (???). They have 3 daughters, Margaret (6), Mary (3) and Ann(1), all born Conwy.

1881 Edward Williams is living in 7 Pool Lane, Conwy, age 42, a Stonemason, born Conwy.
Lydia Williams, wife, age 40, born Oswestry, Shropshire.

They have children, Mary (13), Ann (11), Edward Smith Williams (9), John Robert Williams (7) William James Williams (4) all born Conwy.

It is worth considering as it has the names of Edward and Lydia, together with the Llangelynin/Conwy connection. Were Edward and Lydia his parents? There could be a marriage for them in St Asaph, RD in 1863. Edward Williams married Lydia Thomas. It is a bit like clutching st straws but I cannot find any other Edward and Lydia with a Llangelynin connection.

Helig.



Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2019, 05:36:00 pm »
Helig, that's an interesting find and it also raises questions too.   If Edward was born in 1839 I wonder why he was living with John and Mary Roberts when he was only about 2 or 3 years old.
Pwll Y Moch  ( Eng.   Pool of the Pig )  seems to be still there and is not far from the Llanrwst Road but quite a way from the old Church of Llagelynin
Lydia is an unusual name so you could be right with your thoughts on Edward and Lydia

Offline rhuddlan

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 06:09:18 pm »
Lydia would appear to have been born a village near Oswestry called Selattyn ( rather than the spellling on the census).

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2019, 07:50:45 am »
I've just had a quick look at this again and although there is a strong possibility that Edward Williams and Robert Williams were related,  I don't think that they could be father and son
Edward was born about 1839 and got married to Lydia Thomas in 1863 but Robert was born about 1855 so it's extremely unlikely that they are father and son.
The Llangelynin Baptism record may shed some light on the relationship

Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2019, 09:35:53 am »
Morning Hugo,

I agree about the relationship between Edward and Robert Williams. It is likely they were brothers. I think I had a senior moment on Saturday!

It has proved impossible to trace Robert Williams in census returns for 1861 and 1871. As Mull has the marriage certificate for Robert and Sarah, there should be the names of their fathers on this. Can you let me have the name of Robert's father on the marriage certificate please Mull?

I wonder whether Robert is with another family/person in earlier census returns.

Lydia is an unusual name in Wales as you have commented. It may help to trace them if necessary.

Helig


Offline mull

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2019, 11:15:35 am »
Morning Helig,

Marriage certificate TWA 222909 No.118
Carmel Chapel, Conwy
17 Jan 1880  Robert Williams 25 Years, Bachelor, Labourer, Seaview Terrace,Conwy ,Fathers name, John Williams, Labourer

                   Sarah Ellen Evans ,25 years, Spinster, Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel Conwy, Father name and profession are Blank

Married in Carmel Chapel according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Calvanistic Methodists, Robert Hughes, Minister.

In the presence of Edward Williams, and X The mark of Lydia Williams.

My father must have seen the 1861 census for Llangelynin and notes following.  Notes not easy to follow or my be me being thick.
Robert Williams Age 6  ?
Edward             Age ?
Lydia                Age ?

Hope this helps.

Mull

Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2019, 12:01:22 pm »
Hello Mull,

Thank you for that information. I wondered if his father was named John as his first born son was given that name and it tends to be a naming pattern of first born son being named after the paternal father. I will have another search.

Helig

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2019, 09:08:46 pm »
Carmel Chapel Conwy

Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 10:25:10 am »
I found a marriage in Llangelynin on Freereg. This was on 24 August 1839, John Williams to Mary Roberts. There are no other details shown in the transcription. It was the only marriage for a John Williams in Llangelynin in the period 1830-1860.

Could they have married in the bride's parish?

It could be of interest in view of Edward Williams being in the household of a family by the name of Roberts in the 1841 census.

Finding the family in a census for 1841, 1851 and 1861, is proving difficult.

Helig


Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 10:57:11 am »
I have done a place search of Llangelynin in the 1861 census and there is no trace of Robert Williams there at all. This is the same for the other family members, John Williams etc.

Helig.

Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2019, 10:00:07 am »
I have done place searches of the 1861 census for Conwy. There are two districts and there is no trace of John Williams in District 1.

District 2 has a family living in Chapel St, Conwy. The head is John Williams age 32, married, Cabinet Maker, born Conwy. Also in the household: Ellen Williams, wife, age 28, "Anglesea person"; Ann J Williams, daughter, age 7, born Liverpool; Thomas Williams, age 5, son, born Liverpool; Alice Williams, daughter, age 3, born Conwy, and William Williams, age 1, son, born Conwy.

There is another John Williams living in Mount Pleasant. The household comprises:

John Williams, married, age 35, carter, born Anglesea Aberffraw.
Elizabeth Williams, wife, age 28, born Caerhun.
Hugh Williams, son, age 4, born Dwygyfylchi
Catherine Williams, daughter, age 1, born Dwygyfychi.
Martha Griffiths, niece, age 12, born Holyhead.

Still no trace of Robert!

I have been advised that the marriage certificate for Edward Williams to Lydia Thomas shows his father as John Williams, Labourer. A witness is shown as Elizabeth Williams.

Helig.



Offline Helig

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 10:19:39 am »
There is a fit for Robert Williams in the 1861 census for Caerhun. The household is:

John Williams, Head, married age 62, Agricultural Labourer, born Caerhun.
Jane Williams, wife, age 60, born Gyffin.
Robert Williams, son, age 6, born Caerhun.

Helig.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2019, 01:27:39 pm »
I went to the Archives in Llandudno today and had a look at some of the records for Llangelynin and they have the Baptism, Marriage and burial records for Llangelynin from 1733 onwards and they are very interesting to look at.
I wanted to follow the direct line of John Williams according to the Marriage certificate that Mull has but I saw the Baptism record that Helig referred to on the 15th February 2019 and went off on a tangent as it was fascinating reading about the family.  Whether this Robert is related to John in the marriage certificate, I'm leaving it to Mull to pick out the bones of what I found today and I can always go back to the Archives to see the records again

This is what I found:-
The Burial Index for the old church of Llangelynin shows this entry at Grave No 6
Three children of William Williams Ty Gwyn Roe by Margaret his wife viz
Robert was buried Dec 26th 1836 aged 3 weeks
Grace was buried Dec 30th 1843 aged 4 years
Anne was buried June 2nd  1844 aged 3 years

The Burial Index for Llangelynin new church showed these details at Grave No B 07
Margaret wife of William Williams Ty Gwyn Roe died 8th Nov 1871 aged 58
Also
Catherine her daughter who died 7th April 1872 aged 17
Also
Robert her son who died 9th Feb 1855 aged 5 months
Also
William Williams her husband who died 19th December 1876 aged 66

Often in those early days children died very young and it was often a common practise to name a child after one that had died earlier and I think it's the case in this Williams family because this is a list of all the Baptisms I could find

Date                                   Name                         Parents                                       Abode                        Occupation
No 150   5th April 1833         Rowland                  William & Margaret Williams             Glynn                             Esquire
No 165  28th Nov 1835         Robert                               "                                          Tanrallt                           Labourer
No176  Sept 23rd 1836         Richard                              "                                          Roewen                          Publican
No 189  Aug 21st 1840          Ann                                   "                                          Ty Gwyn Roe                   Butcher
No 205 Feb 9th 1843              Margaret                           "                                               ditto                          Publican
No 219  Dec 12th 1845         Grace                                "                                                ditto                              ditto
No 236  March 18th 184?      Ann Jane                             "                                              ditto                              ditto
No 252  3rd Oct 1849            John                                   "                                        Mount Pleasant                  Labourer
                                                                                                                        in Parish of Caerhun
No 274   5th Oct  1851          William Hughy ?                    "                                        Tai Newydd  Roewen            ditto
No 275   5th Oct   1851         Thomas                                "                                                ditto                           ditto
No  285  26th Jan  1853         Robert                                 "                                       Ty Gwyn  Rowen                   ditto
No  306   3rd Dec 1855          Catherine                             "                                             ditto                           Publican