Author Topic: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.  (Read 2477 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mull

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« on: February 13, 2019, 04:14:23 AM »
Good morning Helig and Hugo.

About 1980 my father tried to trace his mothers family but being before the computer age he could not get very far. Can you help please ?

His mother was Catherine Jane Williams born 25 October 1883, Seaview Terrace, Conwy.
He had the marriage certificate of Robert Williams to Sarah Ellen Evans in Carmel Chapel,Conwy, 17 June 1880.
There is a note that both Robert and Sarah were born in 1855. He must have had a view of the1861 census but the details are incomplete.
Llangelynin ( address ot shown) Robert
                                               Edward
                                               Lydia
Llangernyw ( address not shown ) Sarah Ellen.

Would the census give the address  or are the locations very small.


rhuddlan

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2019, 09:32:38 AM »
I guess this is open for anyone to reply?
So i had a quick look on family search and found this. Often there are transcription
 errors
but it looks a possibiliity.... I don't subscribe to pay sites like Ancestry, FMP anymore, but you would need to see the original to confirm .
Keep scrolling down!
Sarah Ellin Evans
England and Wales Census, 1861





Name:   Sarah Ellin Evans
County:   Denbighshire
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1861
Event Place:   Llangerniew, Denbighshire, Wales
Ecclesiastical Parish:   St Asaph
Registration District:   Llanrwst
Residence Note:   Gerddi Gleision
Gender:   Female
Age:   6
Relationship to Head of Household:   Granddaughter
Birth Year (Estimated):   1855
Birthplace:   Liverpool,
Page Number:   2
Registration Number:   RG09
Piece/Folio:   4305 / 39
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Evan Evans   Head   Male   63   Llangerniew, Denbighshire
Ellin Evans   Wife   Female   63   Bettws, Denbighshire
Sarah Ellin Evans   Granddaughter   Female   6   Liverpool,
Margret Jones   Granddaughter   Female   2   Llangerniew, Denbighshire

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 11:14:25 AM »
Hello Mull,

I have found Sarah Ellin Evans in the 1861 census and it is the same one as Rhuddlan has given before.

The place they were living is shown as the Township of Rhan Hir and Llangerniew. The address isn't given as such, just house names all through the page. Their house name appears to be Gerddi Gleision. The second word isn't very clear at all. The household consists of the following;

Evan Evans, Head, age 63, married, Labourer 5 acres, born Denbighshire, Llangerniew.
Ellin Evans, wife, age 63, born Denbighshire, Bettws.
Sarah Ellin Evans, granddaughter, age 6, born Liverpool.
Margaret Jones, granddaughter, age 2, born Denbighshire, Llangerniew.

The house next to them has another family by the name of Evans living in it. The next house along to that has a Jones family living there.

Do you still have the marriage certificate for Robert and Sarah? You could order it if not. The reference for this is: March quarter 1880, Conwy Registration District, Vol 11b Page 613.

There are a few Family Trees on Ancestyr for the family of Evan Evans. He is shown as being born in 1796 in Llangerniew. Marriage in 01/02/1823, Bettws yn Rhos, to Eleanor Davies. Details: Evan Evans of Llangerniew Bach Lab x son of William Evans deceased to Eleanor Davies x Spin of Bettws yn Rhos, daughter of David Davies of Frith Bach Bettws and Catherine his wife, formerly Hughes on 1 February 1823.

Evan Evans was buried on  4 April 1866 and is shown as of Gerddi Gleision in Llangerniew.

The 1851 census shows Evan Evans living in Gerddi Gleision, Llangerniew, age 54, with Elin, age 54, and a son David, age 23, born Llangerniew.

The tree on Ancestry shows that Evan Evans had the following children:

David Evans born 1828, baptised 13 April 1828, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Sarah Evans b1830, baptised 20 June 1830, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Elizabeth Evans b1833, baptised 24 February 1833, of Rhos y Gwyddel, Llangerniew.
Grace Evans b1835, baptised 10 May 1835, of Rhos y Gwyddel.
Ellis Evans b1837. Baptised 6 August 1837 of Rhos y Gwyddel.

Sarah Ellin Evans must descend from one of the two sons shown.

While the accuracy of trees on Ancestry cannot be guaranteed the information given appears to be based on sources given and can be taken as reasonably reliable.

Helig




Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 11:31:55 AM »
Eleanor/Ellinor/Elinor Davies is shown as baptised 27 August 1796 of Frith Bach, Bettws yn Rhos. Daughter of David Davies of Cilcen Township and Catherine his wife.

She survived her husband, Evan, and was living at Gerddi Gleision in the 1871 census. She is a widow and aged 75. It shows she had a small farm of 4 acres. Her granddaughter, Margaret Evans, age 12, is living with her and Margaret was born Llangerniew.

Helig


Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 12:53:29 PM »
Wow Helig,  your computer must be red hot with all that info that you have been able to obtain today.   There is a lot of info obtained and a lot for Mull to digest up there on the island.
I'm like Rhuddlan and do not subscribe to any sites but the only thing I can add at this stage is regarding David Davies and Sarah Ellin Evans.
Firstly  the Cilcen township, could that actually be Cilcain in Flintshire?
Secondly regarding Sarah Ellin Evans,  in actual fact all five children could be Sarah's parents but in those dark days if a single girl got pregnant then they used to send them away until they had the child and then brought them back to live with the family.     So Elizabeth, Sarah or Grace were old enough to have children.
As Sarah Ellin Evans was born in 1855 there will be a birth certificate for her and that should show the mother's name and possibly the father's too

mull

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 05:36:19 PM »
Thank you Rhuddlan, Helig and Hugo for your help with this.

This is a great forum for information.

I have got a copy of the Marriage certificate for Robert Williams and Sarah Ellen Evans, 17 Jan 1880.

Both age 25 years.
Roberts occupation is Labourer.

Sarah occupation is Domestic Servant, Temperance Hotel, Conwy.

Witnesses are Edward and Lydia Williams presumably Roberts brother and sister.


I have had another look through my fathers papers and have come up with the following,

Robert died 5 June 1929, and Sarah died 17 March 1925.


There is a note from the chapel records in Conwy that they lived in Seaview Terrace until 1883. In 1885 the address is Penmaen bach ??

In 1886 Robert Williams and family moved from Conwy but unfortunately the record does not show their destination.


The 1861 census for Llangelynin has Robert 6 years, Edward ? years, Lydia ? years.

Looking on the OS Map places look very spread out with few properties.  Would it be possible to find an address ?


This was started by Helig mentioning about a railway family connection with Llandudno. It was the same with my fathers family and I will post more on this later.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 08:10:42 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

There is a note from the chapel records in Conwy that they lived in Seaview Terrace until 1883. In 1885 the address is Penmaen bach ??
In 1886 Robert Williams and family moved from Conwy but unfortunately the record does not show their destination.
The 1861 census for Llangelynin has Robert 6 years, Edward ? years, Lydia ? years.

Looking on the OS Map places look very spread out with few properties.  Would it be possible to find an address ?
This was started by Helig mentioning about a railway family connection with Llandudno. It was the same with my fathers family and I will post more on this later.


Mull, Penmaenbach was only a small community in those days but they seem to have left there before the 1871 Census so that doesn't help much but something may turn up in the meantime

As for Llangelynin that's a widespread but small community on Conwy mountain but the Baptism records if there are any may give a name for the property.    Lots of these old Welsh properties have kept there original names so you might be lucky there.

I'll have a look in the Archives if the answer hasn't been found by next week



mull

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 11:19:20 PM »
Thanks Hugo.
Plenty to look at for the time being. I will let you know if I find out more.

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 10:40:57 AM »
Morning Hugo and Mull,

Firstly to reply to Hugo's post about Cilcen/Cilcain etc. I doubted that they were the same townships but a look at Genuki shows that are the same. Bettws yn Rhos is in Cilcen township: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I was thinking about Sarah Evans last night and came to the same conclusion as you, Hugo. She could well have been an illegitimate daughter of one of the daughters of Evan Evans. That would explain why she is with her grandparents in the 1861 census. I tried to find a birth registration for her but there are numerous ones for Sarah Evans around 1855. I am not sure which registration district covers Llangernyw.

I found Robert Williams in the 1911 census and details are as follows:

Address: 9 Council St, Llandudno.

Robert Williams, married, age 56, Labourer, Urban District Council. Born Conwy. Welsh and English speaking.
Sarah Ellen Williams, age 55, born Llangerniew. Speaks Welsh and English.
Edith Williams, single, neice (sic) age 20, Dressmaker, born Liverpool. Speaks Welsh and English.

The census shows they have been married for 32 years, had 6 children born alive and 3 died.

They are in 9 Council St, Llandudno, in the 1901 census too.

Details are as follows:

Robert Williams, married, age 46, Council Labourer, born Conwy.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 44, born Lancs, Bury.
John Evan Williams, son, single, age 19, Upholsterer, born Conwy.
Catherine Williams, daughter, age 17, born Conwy.
Robert Williams, son, age 11, born Conwy.
Edith Williams, daughter, age 10, born Liverpool.
Walter Nulton, Lodger, age 26, Rivetter, born Yorks.
Harold Bailey, Lodger, age 18, Plater, born Yorks.

All the Williams family were bi lingual.

In the 1891 census they are living in Broughton, near Salford. The address is 45 Woodland St, Salford.

Robert Williams, married, age 36, married, General Labourer, born Conwy.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 36, born Llangerniew.
John E Williams, son, age 9, born Conwy.
Catherine J Williams, daughter, age 7, born Conwy.
Robert Williams, son, age 1, born Conwy.

1881 census, address 1 Seaview Terrace, Conwy.

Robert Williams, married, age 26, General Labourer, born Langelynin, Caerns.
Sarah E Williams, wife, age 25, born Llangerniew.

I am trying to find Robert in earlier census returns but it is proving difficult.

Helig.







Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 03:10:10 PM »
Helig,  that's another bit of fascinating info you have unearthed.  I had never heard of Cilcen before and it's one of those ancient townships that you never hear of nowadays.
The Cilcain I mentioned was much further east and nothing to do with Betws Yn Rhos.    The Cilcen by Betws Yn Rhos has at least two properties called Ffrith Bach so I don't know which is the correct one.
One Ffrith Bach is very near Llangernyw but whether this is the one I can't say for sure.
Anyway, I've attached some links to Cilcen & Ffrith Bach

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login



rhuddlan

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 03:43:17 PM »

I've not made any progress in finding the birth registration for Sarah.Ellen . her birthplace seems to change with each census. I would add that although registration of BDM started in 1837 it did not become mandatory till much later.
However I played about with the property name and found this link (which incidentally is bilingual). It seems to refer to a later occupant
but right at the bottom there is a picture of the property.(which incidentally reminded me of the old property my parents used to own on Anglesey which Hugo may recall from a walk there some years ago)
I hope it helps.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 05:11:21 PM »
A bit of TLC and a new roof and it might remind me of the property in Llangernyw        ;D


I'm having the same problem looking for Sarah Ellin Evans as you are Rhuddlan and had various places such as Bury and Chorlton coming up,  so I'll have a go in the Archives asap

mull

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 10:03:59 PM »
Things are coming together.

Thanks Helig for all you are finding out.

Going back to the early 1900s the number of visitors coming to holiday resorts in the summer season meant the railway companies had to draft in staff to handle the volume of traffic. This went on all over the UK into the 1950s and in my younger days I worked with one chap who used to work on the Clyde Steamers for the summer season.

I understand that my Taid who lived in Crewe was drafted into help out for the summer season. He was Edward Hadkinson Davies , born
16 December 1885, 8 Ramsbottom Street, Crewe. This must have been a popular posting for young men at that time and I wonder if he lodged in Council Street in the late 1900s. He and my Nain, Catherine Jane, married and when my father was born in 1912 he was  Station Inspector in Crewe. His later career took him to Station Master at Fiddlers Ferry, Balshaw Lane/Euxton,Sandhills/Kikdale Liverpool were he retired.
The railway conection continued , they had a daughter Olive. In the 1930s Olive married a signalman at Edge Hill who in the late 1950s moved to Colwyn Bay as Station Inspector. He later worked at other stations including Rhyl. I believe they lived in the cottages alongside the railway line about 1/2 mile east of Llandudno Junction.

Thanks again for all the information you have come up wth.



Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2019, 02:28:22 PM »
I am still trying to find Robert Williams in the 1861 and 1871 census returns.

It is interesting to read of your railway ancestors, Mull. I reckon that Olive and her husband would have known some of my relations. My mother went to Colwyn Bay at times. She knew someone who worked there for years. I remember him and his family who lived in St Seiriol's Road, Llandudno. His name was Glyn Goodyear. I wonder if Hugo recalls this family?

Helig

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2019, 03:10:04 PM »
There is a baptism in Llangelynin for a Robert Williams, son of William Williams and Margaret, date shown is 26 January 1853.

Genuki is interesting on Llangelynin:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

There are a few Family Trees on Ancestry for Robert Williams bc1855. None has details of his parents.

Helig