Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.

[Hugo]

Helig, you have probably got the right family with all your searches but the only one I have any doubt about could be this one  "There is a baptism in St Mary, Caerhun, for John Williams. This was on 19 January 1806, John Williams son of Hugh and Sarah Williams"

I think that the John Williams that you previously found was born C 1809 and I have found two Baptism records in Llanbedr Y Cennin in 1810 for a John William:-
2nd June 1910     son of Robert & Ellin Williams
24th March 1810  son of David and Jane Williams
but there is no proof to link any to the John Williams we are looking for

The trouble with the Census records is that you can only take them as a guide, for instance Caerhun is a  village but there is also a Parish of that name that includes the townships of Caerhun,  Llanbedr Y Cennin, Rowen, Tal Y Bont and Tyn Y Groes.
Gyffin also had a Parish with a few townships, none of which I have ever heard of before and then there is Llanbedr Y Cennin.
All of these are very close to each other so it makes tracing them difficult

I'm lucky living where I do because I can see the original records going back to 1733 so all I have to do is copy the entry and then know that they are correct. I'll take your findings with me when I next go to the Archives and work from there.

[Hugo]

Helig,  as I said before the Census records are a guide and sometimes they showed the Birth place as the village or sometimes as the Parish

Jane appears in the 1861 Census as being born in Gyffin  whereas
she appears   in the 1871 Census as being born in Llangelynin so that part is a mystery but one of the crucial things that you have found could be the marriage of John and Jane on the 24th August 1839

The Marriage Register which is in the Conwy Archives may hold the answer to what you have found so if I have a look at it and the record shows where Jane lived with her parents then that may confirm the link to Edward in the 1841 Census.
That same record may also show the name of John's father and where he lived.    In those old days the transport system was extremely limited and families never moved far away so we may be lucky and have all the records here in the Archives

[mull]

Hi everyone thanks for all the work you are [putting into this. I am having a job keeping up with it all as it has been a busy weekend. Did enjoy the Rugby match though.
 Got a busy day tomorrow then a trip to Fort William on Wednesday so I hope by the end of the week will be able to sit down and study it all.


Cambrian, thanks for the explanation ,ref, house names and numbers in Council Street. Great fun being a Postman.

[mull]

Photo taken 1937 ,21 Council Street.

[Helig]

I have found John Williams and family in the 1841 census. HO107/1393/9 Llangelynin, District 6 page 9.
They are living in Groes Ynyd in Llangelynin.

John Williams, age 35, Ag Lab, born in same county.
Jane Williams, age 30, born in same county.
Mary Williams, age 4 months, born in same county.

They are living quite close to John and Mary Roberts and their family, plus Edward Williams.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Thanks Helig, you've been busy again and that's a good find.

We are lucky in so much that there are various things we can look at to search for someone  .  Last night I was watching a Long Lost Family Special and it was about Foundlings, children born without trace and abandoned in various places.
I can't imagine how those children felt and in the past it would have been virtually impossible for them to trace their birth mother

Nowadays though thanks to DNA and modern technology there is a chance for them to do it.    They gave three examples of children who had been abandoned by their mother at birth and one man who was found abandoned in a Hospital  car park found that not only had they traced his birth mother and she was still alive but they also were able to trace his father.    I hope that they do a follow up on that as it will be interesting to hear the story on it and I hope that it will be a happy ending for everyone.

I did a DNA through my heritage which showed my ancestry and since then I have found out that I have relations all over the world and you are able to contact them through the internet

[rhuddlan]

Well done Helig in finding the 1841 census entries. Good to hear Mull enjoyed the rugby...most of my contemporaries prefer football but I'm afraid my passion is rugby and when you have roots deep in the soil of wales if you haven't a tear in your eye when the national anthem is sung at the Millenium Stadium then there's something missing.
I used to watch my dad with tears in his eyes when they played at Cardiff Arms Park. That's what makes genealogy so enjoyable. My daughter is a geneticist and my DNA is predominantly Celtic which pleases me greatly!
Finally well done Hugo for being a great friend and I wish I were as erudite as he is viz a viz his kind comments about our mutual friend Maria under  the heading " walking".....the B Y D walk.
Happy hunting folks!

[Hugo]

Well Rhuddlan,  you'd have had tears in yours eyes too if you had been at the top of the Carneddau on Saturday, it was one of the windiest days that I've experienced up there.  Still a great game and a great result too
That was the first time that I have walked on a Roman Road since Maria passed away, she may be gone but she certainly hasn't been forgotten

Helig, I've been to the Archives this afternoon and had a look at some of the records that you have been able to find.  Firstly it is the correct marriage but there is a bit of a sting in the tail and these are the details from the Marriage Register    CEP 19/1/8   Llangelynnin Register of Marriage 1839 to 1970
The Wedding on the 24th August 1839 at the Parish Church of Llangelynnin and is No 5 in the Register

Name                age              status          occupation     Residence at time of Marriage     Father's name               Father's occupation
John Williams     full age       bachelor         labourer              Lletty Caerhyn                      William Thomas                 labourer
Jane Roberts        ditto         spinster                                  Tu Hwnt yr ffrwd                     John  Roberts                    farmer
                                                                                        ( address unclear)     

In the presence of  Hugh Evans
                            Mary    ?
                            John Roberts              Just as an add on all signatures were  put as the mark of X  meaning that they could not read or write

Now this is exactly how the entry appeared in the Register and you will note that John' Williams' father is William Thomas.   This does not appear to be a mistake because in the old Welsh tradition the sons were named after the father and if the tradition was maintained then John should have become John ap William.   So I needed to check this out with the Baptism records but the Llangelynnin Baptism record did not have an entry for him
I did however find an entry for John in the Caerhun Register and this is what I found:-
April 16th 1808
John son of William Thomas  Parkill  ( even the Archivist couldn't read the address )   by Jane his wife

I could find no entry for Jane Roberts in the Llangelynnin Baptism Register for 1811

There was no trace of a Baptism record on the 19th January 1806 for a John Williams

I made no further searches due to lack of time

[Helig]

It just goes to show how much those of us on this Forum have in common as I watched the rugby and also the programme, Long Lost Family Special. Both made for excellent television and I enjoyed watching them very much. I am thinking of having my DNA tested too.

It appears that John Williams was illegitimate but knew the identity of his father was nevertheless. That could be the reason why John wasn't named after his father. How can he be named John Williams if his father was shown as William Thomas Parkhill in the register? I searched Freereg and the John baptised on 16 April 1808, is named John Thomas after his father according to their transcription. It fits as his wife is shown as Jane.

I am trying to send a link to the entry on Freereg which shows the baptism of Jane Roberts.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bd6ee93790ec8b0d9655?locale=en&search_id=5c7658ae791e3bc41c54ec40&ucf=false

also, a link for the baptism of John Williams in 1806.

https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817bbf7e93790ec8b0adb9d?locale=en&search_id=5c765a2c791e3bc41c54f3ec&ucf=false

I am not sure if these will come out.

I have seen some entries for the non conformist chapel in Henryd Congregational Chapel that is mentioned on the Genuki page for Llangelynin. I am not sure what records exist for this place. Is it possible to enquire next time you are in the archives please, Hugo? The children of John and Jane Williams appear to have been baptised there.

Helig.

[Helig]

There is an entry in the 1841 census for Caerhun for William Thomas, age 70, Ag Lab, born in same county. Jane Thomas, age 65, born in same county. Both living in Llety.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Thanks Helig for all the info you have posted and the links that you have attached.    It's best if I reply to each particular point just to clarify what I found and what records I was looking at:-

Firstly  John Williams was not illegitimate.    It would have stated that in his Baptism record.   His father was William Thomas who was married to Jane and this is shown in his Baptism record of 16th April 1808.  Their abode was Parkhill but I expect that our interpretation of the address is incorrect
  As I mentioned before, the Welsh people did not have surnames hundreds of years ago.  My history is not that good but I think that the Act of Union with England and Henry VIII started to change the practise and in those days someone like John may have been called John ap William ap Robert etc etc so that is what the Archivist and myself have concluded.

However, I'd like to prove that for certain and I believe that William Williams may be John's brother and if that is so then William Williams' father should also be William Thomas.   iF it does then that is the definitive date when the family adopted the surname Williams.          I helped another forum member with a similar thing and by coincidence they lived in Gorswen in Rowen and would have been neighbours of the Williams family at the time.
That's the reason why so many Welsh families have surnames that sound like Christian names.    You'll also see names like Owen Owen, Robert Roberts, William Williams and so on

The Baptism of Jane Roberts on the 19th of January 1806 in Llangelynnin:-
I looked at the Llangelynnin Baptism Register for the years 1785 to 1811 but could find no entry for Jane.     However there may be an overlap and her Baptism is in the next Register so I need to check that one out

I looked at the Caerhun Baptism Register and while that was not in very good condition I could not see an entry on the 19th Jan 1806 for a John Williams, there was an entry on the 5th Jan 1806 for a John Williams but his parents were Hugh and Ellin Williams but I've discounted that one and feel sure that I have the correct one in 1808

I'll enquire about the Henryd connection when I next go to the Archives

You are obviously into Ancestry in a big way Helig and if I was you then I would go for that DNA test and you'll be surprised how much you can find out about yourself.     When I did mine with My Heritage in Texas my make up was over 75 per cent Welsh, Irish and Scottish, 14 per cent Scandinavian and over 7 per cent Italian with Turkish and Iranian making just under 2 per cent.
In addition I get regular notifications from them about matches to my DNA  from people all over the world.    You can make contact with them through the site if you so wish,

A few years ago if I wanted to look at old maps I would go in to British History Online put the location down and then click on the link and I could see maps of the 1800's and property on them.  I've tried this recently with all the names we have found but now the maps don't automatically appear.  I'm afraid that my IT skills are zero but you may be able to navigate around the new system

.   

[Helig]

Thank you for your explanations, Hugo. I have read about the Welsh system of patronymics but have never seen this operate in practise. I have searched Ancestry for some baptisms in c1785, in Conwy and this was operating for children born there then.

I will see what I can find on William Williams to confirm his father's identity.

Yes, the DNA test is something I have pondered but they have made so much progress with refining the results that I am now very tempted to go ahead with this. I know I have a massive amount of Welsh, some Scottish, Viking and who knows what else. It would be interesting to see what unknown relations come out of the woodwork as I know I have a number of relations due to my maternal grandfather being a bit too fond of the ladies. His offspring are known to exist but no one knows exactly who they are. One was born before he married my grandmother and was known to be about in the Conwy Valley.

Helig

[Hugo]

Most of these old Registers that I have read are in remarkable condition considering their age, the Baptism one for Caerhun was hard to follow because the writing has faded and they used abbreviations so I had to check with the Archivist who knew what they were, for example  Jo.  was John  and Hu.  was Hugh but the other registers had the full name

With John and William, I think that they are related because some of the addresses are the same but we just need the final bit of the jigsaw before we can say that they are

A few years ago a University did an experiment with the Conwy Valley residents and wanted volunteers whose families had lived there for a long time.   They were going to test the DNA of the volunteers and see what the findings were.  My father's father was from Penmachno but the experiment was only for people still living there so I didn't qualify and I never found out what the findings were.

Bt the way have you tried British History online to see those old maps?  I hope that you have more luck with them than I did

[Hugo]

I did quite a bit of searching on FreeREG yesterday evening for the Baptism of William Williams but could find nothing that links him to John Williams so I'll have a look in the Archives next week.

[Helig]

I have found an interesting entry in the 1841 census for Bryn Gwenith, Caerhun. The household is as follows;

William Thomas, male, Head, age 55 (born c1786), born in same county.
Ellin Thomas, female, age 40 (born c1801), born in same county.
Jane Thomas, female, age 10 (born c1831) born in same county.
William Owen, male age 15 (orn c1826) born in same county.

Do you think this could be the family of John Williams?

I know that the wife of William Thomas was shown as Jane in 1808, could he have remarried?

This was on Find my Past.

Helig.