Author Topic: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.  (Read 12118 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mull

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 742
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 12:13:51 am »
Thanks again Helig and Rhuddlan for finding out so much, and Hugo you have been busy in the archives. The problem at the moment is finding time to study it all. At present I am trying to put in a new soakaway on the NE corner of the house. The weather is not playing ball it has been a cycle of southerly gales and rain day after day for weeks and progress is slow. We could do with the wind going north then although it will be colder it should go dry.

Hugo, you attached a photon reply 29. Can you let us know its location.

Helig came up with a John Williams, born in Aberffraw in the 1861 census. I can recall my fathers cousin Lillian Wynne mentioning Aberffraw on one occasion when we visited herbut I can not remember in what connection.

I note the family moved to 9 Council Street in the early 1900s, and I can remember visiting as a young boy in the early 1950s. The house was always refered to as "Bryn View" and never as No 9. If I remember correctly the house name was on the glass screen above the front door.
In 1937 my nain ( Grace Ellen Jones ) with my mother moved from Bootle into No 21 Council Street. I have a photo of my mother at the front of this house with the house name " Eirianfa " on the glass screen above the front door.
Council Street is now renamed Norman Road and I have been trying to trace this house on Google Street View. The search is not helped by the unconventional way the numbering runs upward from Oxford Road. For some reason Odd numbers start on the Right with No1 and 3, then 5 and 7 are missing. A terrace of houses then starts at No 9 and runs to No 19, after which are more modern houses. The photo of my mother outside No21 shows it to be a substantial terraced house the same as 9 to 19. It would be interesting to see a map for the 1930s and if possible an explanation why No 21 disappeared.

Attached is a photo of Robert and Sarah Ellens grave in Llanrhos Church Yard .On the right and side are the names John and Robert  died in the Great War and are buried in Belgium. On the left side is daughter Edie.


Offline Cambrian

  • Genealogy & Research team
  • *
  • Posts: 909
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2019, 09:09:39 am »
Mull

Originally, Council Street was numbered consecutively from the Cwm Road end, number 1 being at the opposite end of the side to the property you are looking for.

In the 1970s, the occupiers of the large houses at the Oxford Road end wanted to be distinguished from the local authority housing (now the modern dwellings you refer to) and the name Norman Terrace was used for these and their numbers probably fell into disuse.

In the 1980s, the old Council houses were effectively demolished and became terraces of flats.  Those facing Council Street were numbered as in that road but, importantly, the name of the street was also changed to Norman Road.  The numbering of Norman Terrace then seems to have come back into use with Bryn View becoming 25.This is the first of the large dwellings on the right as you approach from Oxford Road. The first floor flats are approached from what was Back Council Street - this name was changed to Norman Way and those flats numbered accordingly.  "Eirianfa" is now "Northfield" and is 21 Norman Road. When the redevelopment took place, the new flats omitted number 13 which will explain the variation up to 19.  "Bryn View" is now 25 Norman Road. The numbers 1,3,5,7,9, and 11 seem to relate to the numbering within Norman Terrace as opposed to Council Street/Norman Road itself.

Hope this helps explain a confusing history!


Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2019, 10:24:22 am »
Mull,   I was out last night so I couldn't put an add on to my last post but I had a think about what I found at the Archives.   The Baptism of Robert on the 26th January 1853 cannot be your Robert as he was buried with his father in the new Llangelynin graveyard.    The other Robert was buried in the old Llangelynin graveyard and both children died very young
The photo is of the Ty Gwyn Hotel in Rowen where William Williams and his family once lived,   They may or may not be related to your Robert Williams family but they don't appear to be your direct line.
By the way the photo of the grave wasn't attached

Offline mull

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 742
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2019, 12:31:24 pm »
Sorry can't get photo any clearer

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2019, 06:16:49 pm »
Thanks Mull that has come out quite clear now.    The dates on the grave give an indication of an age gap of over 20 years between Robert and Sarah but from previous posting on the 18th Feb 2019 I thought that they were both born C1855.     Is the headstone incorrect then?

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2019, 07:50:30 am »
Mull,  I've just had a look at your very first posting on this and in it you mentioned the 1861 Census and the names Robert, Edward and Lydia.       Have you seen the Census because I can't find those names all together on an 1861 Census?     Now Lydia who married Edward in 1863 was born in Shropshire so if you don't have the 1861 Census that could just be a red Herring

I have found an 1861 Census record with a John Jones, his wife Jane and the son Robert who was born C1855  who were living in Tai Newydd Is Yr Afon  ( where William Williams was living in 1849 )
The 1871 Census shows them living in Gate House Conwy
John's birthplace is shown as Caerhun and Gyffin

Now there has been a mention of a John Williams Aberffraw and you can remember someone mentioning Aberffraw but could it be that you heard this when you were talking about your Taid John Jones who was born in Llandegfan in Anglesey?   


Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2019, 11:17:40 am »
I think you are right, Hugo, it is unlikely that Robert, Edward and Lydia to be together in the 1861 census. Having said that, I haven't found Edward in that census as yet.

I have found that Edward moved to Salford, Lancashire, at some point during the 1880s. He is in Conwy in the 1881 census but he must have died pre 1891 as in that census Lydia is shown as a widow and living in 19 Harriett St, Broughton, Salford. She has six children with her there.

It is difficult to be certain of the exact year of death for Edward but the best match I can find in FreeBMD is a death registered in Manchester RD in the March quarter of 1890 for Edward Williams, age 51. Lydia is still alive and in the 1911 census she is living in 24 Conwy Street, Broughton, Manchester.

Could it have been the case that Robert and Edward moved to that area about the same time? Robert and family were living in Broughton, Salford, in the 1891 census too (see post on page 1).

I did wonder if Robert and family might be somewhere in England in the 1861. Like you, I wondered about the household of John Williams and Jane in Caerhun, see my post on 20/02/2019.

The baptisms for children of John Williams are not to be found in either the old, or new, churches at Llangelynin. There was a non conformist chapel there though, so could they have been baptised in that? Bear in mind that Robert and Sarah married in a non conformist chapel in Conwy in 1880.

Helig.

Offline rhuddlan

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2019, 03:52:18 pm »
Sadly I have to agree with Hugo and Helig about the 1861 census and the three siblings.
 Also, apologies if any of the below has been found and posted before.

I thought I would try the 1881 census and found Robert and his Sarah Ellen living at Seaview Terrace. I also found " an" Edward and Lydia possibly the witnesses to their wedding living in Pool street. That Lydia was born in Oswestry in 1842 and if it's the correct one she is older than Robert who was born  in 1855. I'm pretty certain it's the right Robert but not quite so with the Lydia(particularly as she would have retained her maiden name on marriage). I have no time today to do any more research but I thought I'd  just post them anyway and let others comment further....  ( keep scrolling down!)
Robert Williams
England and Wales Census, 1881





Name:   Robert Williams
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1881
Event Place:   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District:   Conway
Residence Note:   Sea View Ter
Gender:   Male
Age:   26
Marital Status:   Married
Occupation:   Labourer (Gen)
Relationship to Head of Household:   Head
Birth Year (Estimated):   1855
Birthplace:   Llangelynin, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Page Number:   28
Registration Number:   RG11
Piece/Folio:   5581/28
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Robert Williams   Head   Male   26   Llangelynin, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Sarah E Williams   Wife   Female   25   Llangerniew, Denbighshire, Wales

Lydia Williams
England and Wales Census, 1881





Name:   Lydia Williams
Event Type:   Census
Event Date:   1881
Event Place:   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District:   Conway
Residence Note:   Pool Lane
Gender:   Female
Age:   40
Marital Status:   Married
Relationship to Head of Household:   Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):   1841
Birthplace:   Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Page Number:   46
Registration Number:   RG11
Piece/Folio:   5581/37
Affiliate Record Type:   Household
Household   Role   Sex   Age   Birthplace
Edward Williams   Head   Male   42   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Lydia Williams   Wife   Female   40   Oswestry, Shropshire, England
Mary Williams   Daughter   Female   13   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Ann Williams   Daughter   Female   11   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Edward Smith Williams   Son   Male   9   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
John Robert Williams   Son   Male   7   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales
William James Williams   Son   Male   4   Conway, Caernarvonshire, Wales

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2019, 05:08:00 pm »
Helig and Rhuddlan,  I think that we have got the right John Williams in the 1861 Census and I have also got him in the 1871 Census too.
In the 1871 Census Robert has an elder brother called William who is living with them
This is not the conclusive proof that we need to confirm that it is the right person so another visit to Conwy Archives is required and I'll do that asap


Rhuddlan  whats all this "I have no time today to do any more research but I thought I'd  just post them anyway and let others comment further."..   You should have been on the Carneddau today with Tellytubby and I.   You'd have loved it (not )   It was not exactly the weather forecast we were expecting and it was blowing a gale up there

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2019, 11:50:47 am »
For some reason the Census details from FREE CEN haven't come out in the style on my e-mail but after numerous attempts to correct them I have now given up and have left them as they appear below:-


1861 Caernarfonshire (CAE) Liechwedd-Isaf Caerhun Caerhun 4360 6 60 15 76  Tai Newydd, Is Yr Afon
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
WILLIAMS John Head M M 52 Agricultural Labourer CAE Caerhun   
WILLIAMS Jane Wife M F 50  CAE Gyffin   
WILLIAMS Robert Son - M 6  CAE Caerhun

Census Year County Place Civil Parish Ecclesiastical Parish Piece Enumeration District Folio Page Schedule House Number House or Street Name
1871 Caernarfonshire (CAE) Conway Gyffin Gyffin 5736 3 59 11 56  Gate House
Surname Forenames Relationship Marital Status Sex Age Occupation Birth County Birth Place Disability Notes
WILLIAMS John Head M M 62 Labourer CAE Gyffin   
WILLIAMS Jane Wife M F 60 Wife CAE Llangelynen   
WILLIAMS William Son S M 21 Labourer CAE Llangelynnin   
WILLIAMS Robert Son - M 16 Labourer CAE Llangelynnin

I could not find John Williams in FREE CEN for 1851 or 1841 but I did find him in the Census records for Find My Past and it showed that he was living in Caerhun Parish and was born in 1808.      Because I don't subscribe to anything that is all the info I could obtain but I can get those records from the Archives plus any more Baptism records if there are any for John Williams' family

Offline rhuddlan

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 147
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2019, 01:17:29 pm »
Now the" post rugby euphoria" has lapsed....I've found this for 1851... I think this is the one Hugo was referring to.
John Williams
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name   John Williams
Event Type   Census
Event Date   1851
Event Place   Caerhun, Caernarvonshire, Wales
Registration District   Conway
Gender   Male
Age   43
Marital Status   Married
Occupation   Ag Labourer
Relationship to Head of Household   Head
Birth Year (Estimated)   1808
Birthplace   Caerhun, Carnarvonshire
Page Number   13
Registration Number   HO107
Piece/Folio   2519 / 357
Affiliate Record Type   Household
Household
Role
Sex
Age
Birthplace
John Williams   Head   M   43   Caerhun, Carnarvonshire
Jane Williams   Wife   F   40   Cyffin, Carnarvonshire
Mary Williams   Daughter   F   10   Llangelynin, Carnarvonshire

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2019, 02:31:29 pm »
Now that the Rugby has finished and possibly with it numerous bottles of red wine, that's a good find Rhuddlan.      It establishes three children for this John Williams, Mary b C1831 ,  William b C 1850 and Robert b C 1855.

Is it possible to work your magic again and do the Census for 1841?       The Baptism, Marriage and Burial Registers for Llsangelynin go back to 1733 and I noticed that there were a number of Williams' in it throughout the Register. and I'll be going back to the Archives asap to see if we can get more info about this family and connect Edward to it

Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2019, 02:39:49 pm »
That John Williams looks promising and we have connections to Llangelynin with his children. The only thing that worries me is that neither Robert, nor Edward Williams, has a daughter by the name of Jane which I would have expected.

There are more children in the 1851 census as it continues over the page. These were;

Jane Williams, daughter, age 8, born Llangelynin.
John Williams, son, age 6, born Llanbedr.
Ann Williams, daughter, age 3, born Caerhun.
William Williams, son, age 1, born Caerhun.

They seem to have moved around a bit.

I presume the children were baptised in the non conformist chapel.

I have found Lydia Thomas in the 1861 census. She is in Selattyn, Shropshire and a Kitchen Maid, servant, in the household of George Crump, landed proprietor. In the 1851 census, she is living with her parents, Robert and Margaret Thomas. They are in Selattyn. She has siblings by the names of Margaret (24) and William (11). Her parents were born Llansilin, Denbighshire. I couldn't decide on their birthplace from the census and this is as transcribed. Out of curiosity I tried to find her death which was in the September quarter of 1938, Manchester North District. She was aged 97.

Helig.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13885
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2019, 03:56:53 pm »
Thanks Helig, that looks very promising indeed so that has given us three more children  Jane b C1843   John B c1845 and Ann b C 1848.
So we know the names of six children already.
That Llangelynin Register may unearth a few more things hopefully

Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Robert Williams / Sarah Ellen Evans.
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2019, 10:04:39 am »
There is a baptism in St Mary, Caerhun, for John Williams. This was on 19 January 1806, John Williams son of Hugh and Sarah Williams. I found this on Freereg. There are no other details to those above.

Also from Freereg, a marriage in St Celynin, Llangelynin, 24 August 1839, John Williams to Jane Roberts. This could be the John Williams we are interested in.

There is a baptism in St Celynin, Llangelynin, on 24 February 1811 for Jane Roberts, daughter of John and Mary Roberts.

This could be the right one as in the 1841 census for Llangelynin, Edward Williams b1839, is living with John and Mary Roberts.

The only doubt is that in the census returns, Jane shows she was born in Gyffin. There is a baptism in Gyffin for Jane Roberts on 3 February 1812. She was the daughter of Hugh and Elizabeth Roberts.

I cannot find baptisms for Mary Williams, bc1841, or Jane Williams, bc 1843.

All the above are from Freereg.

Helig.