Author Topic: West Shore Issues  (Read 359707 times)

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Offline norman08

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #960 on: August 25, 2019, 03:57:54 pm »
Hugo was it the 30s when the sea came over,that was before they built the walls so why did they have to mess about with them Boulder groynes 😡

Online Hugo

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #961 on: August 25, 2019, 06:42:41 pm »
The flood in the West Shore was in 1924 but they didn't build the sea defence until about 1952.       

To the best of my knowledge the sea has never come over that sea defence and there was no problem until the idiots built the 1993 sea defence and those groynes are part of the problem.
The other is that they imported sand to increase the level of the beach and the morons in CCBC, (sorry but there is no other word I can use)   then dumped the sand back over the wall above the high water mark

The Councillors who live in that area must be as much use as a chocolate tea pot


Offline Nemesis

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #962 on: August 25, 2019, 06:51:02 pm »
The flood in the West Shore was in 1924 but they didn't build the sea defence until about 1952.       

To the best of my knowledge the sea has never come over that sea defence and there was no problem until the idiots built the 1993 sea defence and those groynes are part of the problem.
The other is that they imported sand to increase the level of the beach and the morons in CCBC, (sorry but there is no other word I can use)   then dumped the sand back over the wall above the high water mark

The Councillors who live in that area must be as much use as a chocolate tea pot

couldn't agree more Hugo !
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know.

Offline Ian

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #963 on: August 26, 2019, 09:08:56 am »
Well, it would have been the officers who made the recommendation to do the works.  Do we have access to the meeting minutes from when those recommendations were made and by whom?
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Online Hugo

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #964 on: August 26, 2019, 10:52:48 am »
I think that it's too late to go down that line Ian as the damage has been done.     They employed "consultants" to come up with a plan for the  sea defence and I suspect that the CCBC chose the easiest and cheapest option without giving too much thought for the suitability of it for that particular location
What is ironic is that the CCBC alleged that the 1952 sea defence was being undermined and when I asked their office for an explanation of "undermined" they told me that it was due to a lack of sand.   
The extreme weather and stronger tides means that we do need more protection for the coast and the rock groyne by the Toll House does help to break the power of the water but it should never have been attached to the shore.  Also the two other stone groynes are not needed as they serve no purpose as the previous wooden groynes were working efficiently

The West Shore problem is not a natural one created by nature, it's man made and the only way it is ever going to be resolved is if CCBC  undo most of the work that was done in 1993.
Will they hold up their hands and admit that a mistake was made?   I very much doubt it

CCBC has done four things on the two beaches, the 1993 West Shore sea defence,  the West Shore cycle track,  the North Shore quarry waste and the concrete slipway by the yacht club.      Four things, four mistakes so at least they are consistent but where are our Councillors when we need them?

Offline Ian

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #965 on: August 26, 2019, 11:50:27 am »
What I was wondering, Hugo, was about the reasoning and research behind the scheme. At the time I questioned whether and to what degree there would be an increase in extreme weather events; the reasoning and research behind the decisions is what matters.

I suspect the position is simply that detailed research of the type that needs to be done by climatologists, hydrologists, geologists, fluid dynamicists and engineers is almost always way beyond the capabilities of the average CCBC councillor to comprehend, let alone challenge. But there's a problem: we (mostly justifiably) blame incompetence of CCBC councillors for the decisions they take, yet those decisions are taken based on the advice they're getting.

If they choose to ignore the advice, if anything untoward does happen then their necks are on the line. I'd also argue that sea defence issues are extremely complex, mathematical and engineering problems and the solutions are equally as complex and, as a result, are also way beyond the competencies of the average CCBC officials.

So in a sense it's probably unfair to blame the CCBC councillors entirely over this one. That's why I'm interested to see the original minutes, to see exactly who proposed the work and which company was involved. I'm also extremely interested to see the research done that led to the decision.

There's a lot of misinformation around and a lot of companies hoping to make a fast buck on the back of it. For example, a lot of people are unaware that North Wales and the NW of England are gradually rising while the SE and Norfolk are gradually sinking.

The N shore issues are another example.  We could have a wonderful, sandy beach restored there but it would cost millions and require the Army's Royal Corps of Engineers to do it. CCBC can't afford it.  But the question that ought to be asked is why isn't central government funding it? Coastal storm defence is a national issue, and shouldn't be dumped on local authorities to manage.

The other interesting point is about the stones dumped on the N Shore.  There's a great deal of kinetic energy in a major storm and the associated waves, so if we do get a repeat of the 1987 storm or storm Undine in 1991 it's possible that the water ingress will have such energy that it might well propel large stones across the road and into hotels.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 01:50:59 pm by Ian »
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline norman08

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #966 on: August 26, 2019, 12:14:16 pm »
Hugo when they took that wooden jetty away ( below the imperial ), I said to a know it all councilor, hope they put that wood in storage then when you need to repair them two jetties by the pier you have the wood as that wood is not cheap, the look on his face 😂😡, on a few occasions I have said to the consultant working with ccbc ,Why didn't you mark some of the rocks on different sections, another daft look ,I said that would give you a proper ide of the movement.no Ian you can't always blame the councilors we know,but if they had listened to the people that know,  John Jones the donkey guy who reminded me how we played football on the sand by the pier in the late 50/early 60s ,and the boat lads.

Online Hugo

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #967 on: August 26, 2019, 02:55:02 pm »
I did have some information on my computer about the 1993 sea defence at the West Shore but when my computer went kaput I lost that info along with everything else on it.
I do however still blame the CCBC councillors for this mistake.      They are the ones that allowed this to go through and irrespective of the advice that the Councillors were given they shouldn't automatically vote for something that they know if fundamentally wrong.
Who on earth would suggest that you increase the sand level on a West Shore beach by 10 feet knowing that the prevailing wind is westerly and often a howler at that.

The suggestion is beyond comprehension and although the Consultants had it worked out on paper it was doomed from the start.   Now if they were to apply an ounce of common sense that suggestion may have worked on an easterly facing beach like Colwyn Bay but on the West Shore it should have been a non starter.

Strangely the very same consultants came up with a suggestion for the North Shore and it was simply to build a breakwater out of large rocks that went across the Llandudno Bay from one Orme to the other.     CCBC should not have paid these consultants but should have sued them instead


Offline Ian

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #968 on: August 26, 2019, 06:17:21 pm »
I know what you're both saying, but it's the UIC law (law of unintended consequences). In the face of detailed 'expert' advice, how they could reasonably choose otherwise?  However, if we could see the minutes, we'd have an idea how the meeting went, perhaps.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Online Hugo

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #969 on: August 27, 2019, 07:46:33 am »
Ian. yesterday I spent some time reading the latest Llandudno Beach Development Plan.   I only read about the West Shore and it seemed like the longest half hour of my life
I can understand now  why the Councillors don't read or fully digest the thousands of words on the matter and the dozens of theories that these consultants put forward.   Nevertheless, even to an untrained person common sense should prevail

Just to briefly pick up some points in the report such as "  The relatively high beach levels in the lee of the Gogarth Breakwater are an indication of the success of the breakwater in protecting the beach"
That statement is a joke, the high level of beach was caused by the importation of about 10 feet of sand when the groynes were built and it has been added to it when they dump the windblown sand back over

One suggestion I did like and agree with is the removal of all three rock groynes together with all the imported sand that covers the steps on the sea defence

One other suggestion they made was the raised walkway where the cycle track is on the sand dunes.    The track was to be made of wood or recycled plastic and raised above the existing cycle track.    It is proposed to raise the track by a staggering 300 mm so I had to convert that into feet and inches so I could understand how high they were proposing to raise this proposed structure

Now 300 mm is just under 12 inches so knowing that the sand on the cycle track is often over 5 feet I cannot comprehend the logic behind this train of thought so I'll leave all this to the experts and the Councillors to sort out

Offline Ian

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #970 on: August 27, 2019, 01:48:53 pm »
Ian. yesterday I spent some time reading the latest Llandudno Beach Development Plan.   I only read about the West Shore and it seemed like the longest half hour of my life


 _))*  That's why the councillors voted in favour.  I find it hard to believe I'm actually defending their actions, but in this case I suspect the report authors successfully confounded both councillors and officials. The latter group should have sought an Independent opinion; Bangor Uni has a world-recognised Oceanography Department, largely funded by the EU (something else we'll lose if brexit happens) and they have some fine fluid dynamicists who would gladly have cast their highly educated eyes over the document and perhaps shed a little light.

Having said all that, there were quite a lot of families playing on the extended beach there today.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Online Hugo

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #971 on: August 27, 2019, 05:41:44 pm »
Ian. yesterday I spent some time reading the latest Llandudno Beach Development Plan.   I only read about the West Shore and it seemed like the longest half hour of my life

Having said all that, there were quite a lot of families playing on the extended beach there today.

 It is a lovely beach and in particular the stretch by the sand dunes, but best visited when there is no wind about

Offline Ian

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #972 on: August 28, 2019, 09:39:01 am »
True...  {}{}
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #973 on: September 02, 2019, 04:30:32 pm »
Driving along Westshore today, I was shocked to see that the sand pile that caused the mobility scooter, mentioned above to get stuck in approx 6 inches of sand, is now nearly 3 feet, and into the road.    $angry$

Seeing the lack of council work, only makes the efforts of "Friends of West" shore, a group, who deserves our thanks.

FOWS recent post....

"We resumed the working party session today after a break for the bank holiday. The paths have now all been cleared. the sessions have been very successful, so many thanks to all taking part. I think the next major task is to  tackle  the wind blown sand by the pumping station, (marram grass project).
Apart from these designated work party sessions we"d like to thank the volunteers who have done their own work on a daily/weekly basis - litter picking, watering the flowers in the boat (Sue), painting the benches around the boating lake, skimming the lake for debris (Phil), general weeding along there prom. "

Offline SteveH

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Re: West Shore Issues
« Reply #974 on: September 21, 2019, 11:43:41 am »
With our chat on the weather thread, and screen grabbing, I have been looking at my Westshore photos over the last few years, this one had me stumped for awhile............... who was driving a small car over the rooftops ?