Author Topic: Incompetence: CCBC (and other Public Bodies and Statutory Undertakers...)  (Read 115838 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2017, 11:52:31 am »
I suspect that the Councillors did not fully understand what they were voting for...

Nothing new there, then...
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They have made serious mistakes with both beaches but unfortunately they are not accountable for their actions and don't seem to have learnt anything from their past mistakes.     I wouldn't call the stuff that they have put on the North Shore as shingle,  the contractors call it cobbles and there is a load of it on the beach.   Others just call it an eyesore but whatever happens to it, the blame lies with the CCBC

Yes - and technically they are accountable through the ballot box. I suspect, however, the options were presented in such a way as to leave little room for the sand alternative. It's a standard technique in the civil service: present three possible choices, two of which are completely untenable.

"Well, we can spread shingle, or we could concrete it all over..."
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2017, 12:02:20 pm »
Why is sand restoration a good option, if it's only as good as the shingle?... and the shingle is already there?
I'll say again, insufficient numbers of people use the bit of beach we have to justify any more expansion of it.

I think it's a 'build it and they will come' option, F; it's highly likely that the publicity regarding the parlous state of most of the beach has resulted in comparatively few trippers - plus this season hasn't been the best, weather-wise.  But a hot summer and a fantastic sandy beach might prove a draw.
I agree. Who, at present, would visit Llandudno for a day on a sandy beach? A decent beach would be a significant draw for the town, I think....and make it look far more attractive in publicity photos!  $good$


Offline Blongb

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #92 on: October 02, 2017, 04:00:17 pm »
Why is sand restoration a good option, if it's only as good as the shingle?... and the shingle is already there?
It sounds like massive expense for no benefit to me.

I'll say again, insufficient numbers of people use the bit of beach we have to justify any more expansion of it.



As I said to Dave R point earlier, I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you can describe what was dumped on the North Shore as shingle. Rubble or Quarry debris would be a far better description. You can't walk on it and the Beach below it is empty because of it's inaccessibility. When you take into account the size of the Councils budget its cheap at half the price.  $sunny$
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2017, 04:02:07 pm »
I can't see how it could cost that. There are four elements:  Heavy machinery to bulldoze up the rubble deposited.  Disposal of rubble. Sourcing sand - almost certainly from dredged sand in the Mersey. Heavy vehicles to dump and level sand.  Another way is simply to sail dredging barges as close inshore as possible and use the giant suck and blow systems they have to spread freshly hoovered sand onto the beach.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2017, 05:34:22 pm »
Although replacing the rocks with sand will give us a beach, I am not sure how it works as a flood defense.... ? ?

Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #95 on: October 04, 2017, 09:14:36 am »
Where it's been done around the world it's worked very well.  It does. however, have to be done properly.  It's no good simply piling sand where they've currently piled the rubble; there has to be enough sand - which should merge seamlessly with the promenade tarmac in terms of level - to provide a gentle incline towards the sea. So probably around a distance of a hundred metres.  In the drier periods windblown sand shouldn't be the problem it is at West shore for obvious reasons.


Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #96 on: October 04, 2017, 01:25:44 pm »
I agree up to a point Ian, but the majority of sand coastal defense systems, are constantly having work done, some annually, with costs being in the millions, if we take away the cobbles and replace with sand, and that disappears, we are left without either a beach or flood defense, I think a better option would be leave the cobbles in place, and slope down from there, it would be more cost effective and safer, and with some smaller shale on top of the cobbles, for easier movement, I know we would still have the costs of future sand works, for aesthetic reasons, but the flood defense would still be in place. 


Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #97 on: October 04, 2017, 02:06:36 pm »
I remember the flood defence issue was far from simple: there are two threats - torrential rain and rising sea levels.  The beach treatment was for the latter (obviously) but it was sparked because of anticipated sea level rises and an increase in Northerly gales.

Llandudno is rising, albeit slowly, and Northerly gales remain a rarity, although they will happen, of course. It needs a fluid dynamics specialist to answer the question fully, but given Llandudno's exposure, overall risk and the stability of sand given adequate groynes perhaps it would be worth doing? Certainly, Rhos' experience does show how a North-facing aspect doesn't deter sand aggregation, given detailed consideration to groynes and the like.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #98 on: October 04, 2017, 02:33:57 pm »
The big worry is that CCBC will muck it up again, with us paying as usual, but hopefully they will keep us informed this time.
I still like my idea, but I realise it would still require groynes etc, .....not sure if your Rhos example equates to Llandudno's problem, unless a larger version of their wall was considered, it certainly worked for them, and although expensive, appears to have been a one-off expense.

Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #99 on: October 04, 2017, 03:10:12 pm »
I know what you mean, Steve, but the Rhos concept could be repeated, perhaps by creating an artificial island in the bay. Bound to be some major building projects just looking to dump a few thousand tons of rock and soil, and the only expense would be chartering barges to carry the stuff and dump it.

Point is whatever is done is going to cost money and, frankly, I doubt the current rubble would offer that much of a defence - if any - against a Northerly storm.  And an artificial island could become quite a tourist attraction in its own right.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #100 on: October 04, 2017, 03:22:53 pm »
Great idea, ........ Tudno Castle springs to mind.  ;)     or the tidal lagoon mentioned last year.

Offline squigglev2

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #101 on: October 04, 2017, 04:08:56 pm »
by creating an artificial island in the bay.
Hmm, long out of the area but a great view of Llanudno is from the Elephant's cave type area where you get the look of the (OK I believe itself a bit sculpted years ago) sandy (or it was…) bay, the curve and to the Little Orme.  A bump in the middle?

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2017, 09:53:01 am »
The £13 million, quoted previously for the North shore sand replacement, now appears could reach the £50 million mark.

http://www.northwalespioneer.co.uk/home/2017/10/04/gallery/sand-could-return-to-north-shore-in-llandudno-under-new-million-pound-plan-96575/

Offline Ian

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2017, 10:08:34 am »
I loved this bit:

"Conwy Council's environment, road and facilities department will seek funding from Welsh Government, through its coastal risk management programme, to commission a consultant to produce an outline business case for the options considered within the BMP:

Talk about decisive action...   L0L
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Incompetence: CCBC, NAfW, UK Government, Local council and others
« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2017, 10:24:16 am »
Ian, you named this thread "Incompetence" but it's just clicked, this in the norm, why should we expect anything else.  &shake&