Jones family of LLandudno

[Hugo]

Thanks Cambrian for that information and it should give us more idea where to look in the Church and Parish Registers.

I think that you are correct about Eglwysrhos and Llanrhos.   To me it has always been Eglwysrhos but in the Archives they have the records filed under Llanrhos but I think that's more for  the ease of finding things, but I could be wrong.

I don't think that we are far away from finding John and Elizabeth but with your knowledge and experience of the area any input or suggestion you can make would be appreciated.

That Marriage Certificate I found and many others in the Register didn't help as a lot of entries in it put "full age" down instead of their actual age which doesn't help as we don't know for certain when they were born

[mull]

St Sanens Church , Penrhynside that Hugh Hughes attended, W a branch of Llanrhos or was it a parish in its own right ?

I am only mentioning this as I have not seen that church in any of your searches.

[Cambrian]

St Sannan's Church was a mission church on Pendre Road, Penrhynside.  It was a largely wooden building which was in use from the late C19 until the 1970s.  (The site is now occupied by a dwelling called "Sannan's Lodge) The closure was mainly due to the opening of the "modern" St David's Church in Penrhyn Bay.

St Sannan's was not a parish but part of the Church in Wales Parish of Llanrhos.

One point of confusion in records is that Ecclesiastical parishes and Civil Parishes did not always cover exactly the same area.  However, Civil Parishes were not created until 1894 and lasted until 1974 when they were re-styled "Communities". In the case of the Civil Parishes of Penrhyn and Llangwstennin, these were abolished in 1934 under the Caernarvonshire Review Order.  The whole of Penrhyn was transferred into the Llandudno Urban District and Llangwstennin was divided between Llandudno and the Muncipal Borough of Conway.

Incidentally, for anyone interested in tracing the extents of Ecclesiastical parishes, the boundaries are shown on C19 Ordnance Survey Maps.  I may have mentioned before on the forum that the quickest, easier and cost-free way of looking at these maps is via the National Library of Scotland website.

[Helig]

I have found Robert Jones, Bryn y Gwynt, on the 1861 census. He is living in Bryn y Gwynt and this is near to Tan y Wal. He is shown in a household as follows:

Robert Jones, married, age 53, Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos.
Elizabeth Jones, wife, age 59, born Denbighshire, Llansanffraid.
William Jones, son, age 22, Labourer, born Eglwys Rhos.
Jane Jones, daughter, age 11, born Eglwys Rhos.

I wonder if Robert was an older brother of John Jones. This might be worth pursuing and I will later on.

Helig.

[Hugo]

Thanks for mentioning the maps Cambrian, I've had a look at some and it's interesting to see how the places have changed over the years

[Hugo]

I've just come across some photos of Ty'n Rhyn that I took for the Roberts family and have posted them on here just in case we establish a link with Evan Jones and his son John Jones.
Jane from the Roberts family also was related with another Jones family from Ty Ganol which is just up the hill from Ty'n Rhyn and both properties were in Llangystennin.
From memory, I think the Jones family from Ty Ganol  had a son called ......  John Jones!   

[Hugo]

I was able to have a free go on Find My Past today and put in the criteria that we know for Elizabeth and this info appeared.   Each time I try, different details appear but this time there was only one entry for an Elizabeth Williams from Llanbedr Y Cennin.
I've posted the details in the print out attached in case it helps..

[Helig]

I do wonder if the problems we have encountered in tracing baptisms, marriage etc, is because they were non conformist and the records of the chapels didn't survive.

This shows more on Eglwys Rhos: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/EglwysRhos

I am still trying to find a link with Robert Jones. He is living in Bryn y Gwynt in the 1851 and 1871 census returns too. He is still there in 1881, it is interesting to note that in this census, Bryn y Gwynt was next door to Tan y Wal.

Helig.

[Cambrian]

In my experience with research, the Registers for places of worship can end up in various locations.  County Archives, Register Office (particularly if the premises was "approved" by the GRO for weddings - this does not apply to Anglican churches as the Incumbent, for historical reasons, is a surrogate for the granting of Marriage Certificates and has his own books issued by the GRO) or even still held by the chapel etc. I do know some have even ended up in the National Library of Wales. As you say, Helig, all a bit confusing!

[Hugo]

I was able to have a free go on Find My Past today and put in the criteria that we know for Elizabeth and this info appeared.   Each time I try, different details appear but this time there was only one entry for an Elizabeth Williams from Llanbedr Y Cennin.
I've posted the details in the print out attached in case it helps..

I had a go again on Find my Past and put in the details and looked for a marriage search for Elizabeth and this info came up.    Again there is no proof of any connection to our search but this search revealed a marriage on 2nd Dec 1942 between Elizabeth from Llanbedr Y Cennin and a John Jones in the Parish of Eglwysrhos.
Again no ages were shown just "full" and that John Jones' father was also called ....... John Jones.    More interesting though is that the bride's father was called Abraham Williams and we already know that Elizabeth from Llanbedr Y Cennin had a father called Abraham Williams.      Coincidence or not but it does look interesting.

[Helig]

There may be some progress in that I have managed to find baptisms for Llanrhos in the period we are interested in. These are on Freereg1, I find Freereg 2 to be hopeless.

There is a couple by the names of John and Anne Jones baptising children there at that time. so far I have found:

5/06/1808 Jane, daughter of John and Anne Jones.
01/01/1809, Robert, son of John and Anne Jones.
08/01/1809 Thomas, son of John and Anne Jones (query as Robert baptised 01/01/1809)
29/12/1811 Elizabeth, daughter of John and Anne Jones.
26/06/1814 John, son of John and Anne Jones.

These might fit with our family.

I agree with Hugo that the marriage he has found looks promising.

I found a baptism in Caerhun on Freereg for Elizabeth Williams, daughter of Thomas and Jane Williams, date 14 October 1810.

Helig

[Hugo]

It's really frustrating at the moment Helig with lots of people having the same or similar names.

The Llanrhos Baptisms you have listed may be relevant to Mull's family but the John Jones we are after was born in Llangystennin and I would have expected him to be Baptised there soon after he was born.
I have seen about 5 different ways of spelling Llangystennin and unless you have the right one at the time the computer seems to not recognise the Parish and that maked searching difficult.

The Baptism you have found for Elizabeth on 14/10/1810 was in the Caerhun Baptism Register that I looked at and they lived at a house called Llety.   The Register didn't say where Llety was so that's a possibility too.

[Helig]

It makes searching more difficult as Ancestry doesn't seem to have any detailed knowledge of Welsh geography. The hamlets and smaller places aren't recognised on that site. It doesn't matter how many details you enter, they still come up with other places miles away.

I think this will be difficult to establish online as the names are so common. It needs some other information in order to be certain we have the right people. Thinking of the way forward....

Helig.

[Hugo]

Helig,  I'm inclined to agree with you about the search.   I've been to the Archives again and the records I look at are the original records so they should be correct.

However, I'm finding nothing in them that you haven't found out already and unless we have a bit of luck then we can not establish anything for certain about John and Elizabeth Jones.  As I see it we haven't established the year of birth for either person and in the searches I've done using the name Elizabeth Anne Williams ( from the 1891 Census) hasn't helped either.

In the Llangystennin Baptism Register that I looked at today for the years 1808 to 1816 they had the following John Jones' Baptised:-
John son of Robert & Elizabeth Jones   occupation  Tailor    Baptised  20/5/1808
   "       "    Richard & Ann          "                                       "        27/3/1810 
   "       "    Richard &  Mary        "                                       "        23/8/1812            Address     Gist
   "       "    Henry & Eleanor        "             "         miner        "         8/7/1815                "           Morfa
   "       "    Edward & Catherine   "             "         farmer       "        20/3/1816            address    Gist

Now the John we are looking for could be any of them or ANO  so It's hard at the moment and we;ve probably exhausted our sources now.

One interesting thing that you found regarding Evan Jones' history is the link to Pierce Jones so I would imagine that there is a family tie somewhere but finding it is difficult.   Just for your information  Evan's house Ty'n Rhyn, the Jones' at Ty Ganol and Gist are all within 200 yards of each other and there may be family ties between the three Jones'
Like I've already mentioned,  Jane who posted on this forum before had connections with these Jones and also Penrhynside
and she could possibly give us some answers.   

[Helig]

Hugo, thank you for the information you obtained from the archives. I remember that Mull said he intended visiting Llandudno this month and I wondered if his plans were still in place. It may be that he can find some more on his ancestors. It often helps if someone has a deep knowledge of the family and the slightest piece of information can sometimes solve the mystery.

I am sure there is a connection between Robert Jones of Bryn y Gwynt and John Jones of Tan y Wal. I noticed that in the 1881 census, Bryn y Gwynt is next door to Tan y Wal. I presume that Robert Jones changed the name of the house as in previous years it was about 5-6 houses away from Tan y Wal. There must be some significance in the name.

Mull would be able to obtain the Will of Hugh Hughes who died in 1963. The fact there is a Grant of Probate means he left a Will.

Helig.