Author Topic: Jones family of LLandudno  (Read 14109 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2017, 02:12:31 PM »
You are probably correct with your idea of some connection between Robert and John Jones and that could be solved if only we knew when John was born.
 
Just to give you a background on the area in those days Penrhynside,  Glanwydden and Llangystennin were very small villages and the main work was from mining and agriculture.   Penrhynside was known locally as the "Holy City" on account of the number of Chapels and a Church for such a small population.
 
We know that John and Elizabeth and their son Pierce are buried in the Baptist Cemetery in Glanwydden so I'm assuming that they were Baptists.     Living in Glanwydden at that time were the Roberts family some of whom are buried in the Baptist Cemetery.    They also had relatives in Penrhynside and were somehow connected to the Jones families from Llangystennin that I've mentioned before and they may hold the key to finding which John Jones we are looking for.

I can't tell you anything about the property called Bryn Y Gwynt but if Mull does come here and wants to find more out about Penrhynside and the people it might be worth him speaking to Mr Roberts who lives next door to Tan Y Wal.    Mr Roberts is a nice guy and may be in his 80's but he has lived in the village all his life and would be the one to ask about the village life

Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2017, 11:41:12 AM »
It is remarkable that Penrhynside was know as "Holy City". I have never heard of that before. When I lived in Penrhyn Bay in the 1960s I was of the age to be confirmed. The Confirmation classes were held in a building in Penrhynside. This was linked to St David's church on Glan y Mor Road. It was just off the main road at the top of the hill.

I think that the answer to our problems might be in the non conformist records, that is if they survived and are in the public domain. It is interesting to note that Pierce Jones married in the Sion Chapel in Conwy.

Robert Jones was the Informant of the death of John Jones in 1861. This suggests he was related, or had a close connection to him. The Family Trees on Ancestry, which show John Jones to be the son of Evan Jones, do not mention a Robert Jones in their trees.

My theory is that John Jones was the son of John and Anne Jones and that this is the family living in Penrhynside in the 1841 census. The household is shown as:

John Jones, age 65, Miner, born in same county.
Anne Jones, age 60, born in same county.
John Jones, age 25, Mason, born in same county.
William Jones, age 20, Miner, born in same county.

They are living at Pen y Park which was immediately before Gloddaeth Isa.

In the 1841 census, I found Robert Jones living in Bryn y Gwynt, a few places along and his household is shown as follows:

Robert Jones age 30 Miner, born in same county.
Elizabeth Jones, age 35, not born in same county.
John Jones, age 8, born in same county.
Hugh Jones, age 4, born in same county.
Robert Jones, age 3, born in same county.
William Jones, age 1, born in same county.

There is a family by the name of Roberts living next door to them. Head of household is Owen Roberts.

It would be good to hear what Mull finds on his visit to Llandudno.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2017, 02:32:48 PM »
Helig, one of my walking books by Chris Draper mentions Penrhynside and says "  the village was so enthusiastic about Chapel life that it built four Chapels and then added a Church for good measure.    920 holy seats for only 300 village bottoms.   A village that was better known to the old tram conductors as The Holy City"

The difficulty we have is that we have so many possibilities with various dates that we cannot be absolutely certain which one is correct.    Your theory is sound and probably correct but the 1841 Census which for some silly and unexplained reason rounds the ages of adults down to the nearest 5 years.

The 1841 Census has John as being 25, but even allowing for the fact that he could have been 29 and that would have made his birth about 1812.    Have we got a Baptism or birth record that matches that?

Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2017, 12:01:35 PM »
It isn't an easy one to solve. I did wonder if John Jones, shown as 25 in the 1841 census, presumed born 1814, which would have made him 27 years old then. That age would have been shown as 25 for the purposes of the census.

The best method of obtaining his age accurately seems to be to use his age on the 1861 census, plus age at death in 1861. In both of these he was shown as 47 years, that makes his year of birth c1814.

It has occurred to me that the names of John and Anne recur all the way through this family. That suggests naming children after parents, or another close family member.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2017, 04:59:54 PM »
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It isn't an easy one to solve. I did wonder if John Jones, shown as 25 in the 1841 census, presumed born 1814, which would have made him 27 years old then. That age would have been shown as 25 for the purposes of the census.

The best method of obtaining his age accurately seems to be to use his age on the 1861 census, plus age at death in 1861. In both of these he was shown as 47 years, that makes his year of birth c1814.


Helig.

That info in the 1861 Census does show John's age as 47 and this should  put John's year of birth at C1814,  However the headstone on his grave shows that he was 50 when he died on 24th September 1861.
"Eu farw  Medi 24 1861 yn 50 mlwydd oed"
Eng.  he died September 24 1861 in 50 years old

It's frustrating Helig, just when you think you've got it another obstacle comes up but you may have the right person but it doesn't explain the discrepancy between the Census and the Headstone

Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #110 on: January 20, 2017, 11:10:07 AM »
His age is 47 years on his death certificate issued in 1861. This means we have two methods of showing his age in that year as this agrees with the census for 1861. I think that is sufficient to be satisfied it can be relied on. The death certificate for John Jones is on one of the Family Trees on Ancestry.

There is a puzzle as to why his age is shown as 50 on his gravestone. I suspect the age of Elizabeth Jones on her gravestone may be incorrect as well. They seem to have been rounded up for reasons unknown.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #111 on: January 20, 2017, 01:18:17 PM »
Helig,  you are probably correct in what you have said and that would put the date of birth at C 1814 and the reason for his age being 50 on the headstone is just a mystery.

Do you know the address where John was born?       When I was in the Archives looking at the Register of Baptisms,  I made a number of notes and one of them was for a Baptism of Isaac Jones  son of John and Anne Jones of Bodffordd on 10/1/1813 and John Snr's occupation was a labourer.

So many names are the same and that is making it harder to trace people but could Isaac be John's brother?



Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2017, 11:24:42 AM »
Hugo,this could be an interesting one. I found an Isaac Jones, born Llangystennin, in some of the census returns. In the 1851 he is living in Eglwysbach with his family and he is a Draper. His wife is named Jane and she was born in Abergele. They have 6 children and a servant. The first named child shown is named Evan! Here we go again!

I will look at this some more later on.

I do think Robert Jones was he brother of John Jones.

It is a case of working on probabilities and these are proving difficult to verify for certain.

Helig.


Helig

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #113 on: January 23, 2017, 12:17:53 PM »
Isaac Jones is proving quite a difficult case to make sure I have the right person. The census returns 1841 and after, all show him living in Eglwysbach, married to Jane and a Draper. They had numerous children, in the 1841, the first named child is Jesse, aged 8. In the 1861 census, he has a son named John F S Jones, aged 5.

I cannot find another Isaac Jones born 1813 in Llangystennin.

He doesn't appear on any Family Trees on Ancestry that I can see.

Helig.

Hugo

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Re: Jones family of LLandudno
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2017, 04:14:25 PM »
I've seen those records for Isaac too but it's hard to get a link to John Jones.   The 1841 Census is no help at all as the ages are sometimes wrong and they show the County of birth and not the actual village or town.
The 1841 Census is the earliest one online but they did carry out Censuses for 1801, 1811, 1821 and 1831 but I believe that most of them have not been kept and also there was no useful information on them anyway.

Just using a free search yesterday I came across the Baptisms of four John Jones' living in Llangystennin:-
John Jones    baptised    8/7/1815
      "                 "         30/3/1815
      "                 "          13/3/1817
      "                 "          17/7/ 1817

Unfortunately the search did not name the parents so it's back to square one