Author Topic: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961  (Read 22586 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 05:20:35 PM »
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I look forward to Hugo's findings when he looks at the marriage details.

Helig.

I found the entry in the Marriage Register for John Jones and Grace Jones and it may help you in your search Helig.    John Jones' father was called .....  John Jones.      ;D     good luck!

I've attached a copy of the certificate and apologise for it being a bit wonky as it was copied from A3 paper.     Anyway the Certificate does give us some info about the couple and the witnesses appear to be Grace's brother and possibly her sister.     Now John as we know was a Seaman and his address at that time was in Bootle and his father was also called John Jones and his occupation was a Parish Clerk.

Now searching for the two John Jones' won't be easy because there are thousands of them and I had a good go myself but had no luck this time.    John was 31 when he got married so he must have been born about 1884 so he should appear in the 1891 Census.
The problem with the Census records are that they sometimes show the Parish address rather than the actual town or village so that makes it harder unless you have a good knowledge of the area.    In that respect I'm not sure if Llandegfan is a Parish or not but I'll make enquiries and find out

mull

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 06:21:02 PM »
What can I say but thanks Hugo for digging that information up. I was trying to find which side of the family Rose came off and it looks like she was a witness at the wedding. She does not appear as living with the Llandudno family on the 1901 census Philmac sent. That could be because she was Johns sister from Llandegfan.

As for Johns father I can only find ( another ) John Jones born 1855 and buried 1930 Llandegfan which would fit in with the January date in 1930.

When I get a chance I will go back and look through my documents and photos and see if  I have missed anything.

No snow on the island today just heavy rain  showers. After a good October we have moved into winter.

Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 06:47:02 PM »
I don't subscribe to any of the Ancestry or Find my Past sites but I can get bits of info from them but not the important bits unfortunately.
I've just had a dabble on Anglesey Baptisms  and using 1885 as a guide then + or -  1 for John's year of birth/ baptism only 13 entries appeared.
Only one appeared for Llandegfan (and that was duplicated) but it was for a John Theophilus Jones whose father was John Jones and mother was Phoebe Jones.
It's probably not your relative but would you want to tell anyone that your name was Theophilus?        It may be that he didn't want to either!
I had an Aunt who didn't want to be known by her baptised name and she used another one instead.
It might be worth Helig trying that name out and see what pop up.

mull

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 10:37:32 PM »
Theophilus, sounds like Kojack or one of his mates in New York. Could be more important than we first thought.   :laugh:

Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 10:46:39 PM »
It could be worse, it could have been a special name handed down to future generations.

Theophilus Mull  sounds very impressive!       ;D

Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2016, 08:05:10 AM »
Mull,  I forgot to mention yesterday that after I found the Marriage for John and Grace, I thought that I would look for the marriage of Grace's  parents Pierce and Jane,     As they were both born in Llandudno and Llandudno had two Parishes then, namely Llandudno and Eglwysrhos I had a look in both Parish Registers but for some reason couldn't find an entry for them there.

Anyway, back to John Theo Jones.   I expanded my search in the Baptism records by 4 years and two entries at Llandegfan came up, one being John Theo Jones and the other just  John Jones.    John Jones'  parents were John and Margaret Jones but the date of the Baptism was 1882 so that couldn't be your Taid as he wasn't born until C1884.      But could that date of 1882 be wrong, could it have been 1885?
The reason I say this is because these records have only been copied from manuscripts and bad hand writing could be a reason for a mistaken date etc.

What I found in the 1891 Census made me come to that conclusion and the details I found are listed below:-

John         Jones        Head         aged 36             born    Llandegfan
Margaret       "            wife              "    35               "       Llangoed
Thomas        "            son               "      9               "       Llandegfan
John             "               "                "      7               "             "
Frederick       "             "                "       5                 "            "
Alfred            "             "                "       3                 "            "

Because of bad handwriting I couldn't make out John Jones Snr's occupation but it looked like Fuller  (Miller) and for the same reason I couldn't quite make out the address.   I think that there has been a mutation and a spelling mistake in the last part of the address but I do have an idea of where it was from the other Census' addresses.   It is called Tan Y   ???  and will have been near the Church or Cemetery.
If those details can be followed up in the 1901 and 1911 Census records then it could be what you are looking for.    Watch this space.       

mull

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2016, 10:18:19 AM »
Grace Ellens mother was born in Bangor so maybe the marraige took place there and that is why you can not trace it in Llandudno .

A few weeks ago I stumbled on TV programmme on SC4 and joined it about half way through. It was Wil Tan Deuawdau Rhys Meirion and through sub titles I could follow it . The programme ended will them singing in Llandegfan Church and Wil Tan saying that his home was Tan Y Fynwent next door to the church. It is this programme that kicked me in action with this search.
After my mother died in 1990 my father and I visted a relative , Kathlean Jones , who lived in the house on the other side of the church. This house is called Tyn Llan and can be picked up clearly on Earth Scout Street View.
I have a post card sent by Taid to Llandegfan to tell them he had just arrived in Barry and it is addressed to the Church House, is this the english translation of Tyn Llan.
So far only trace of Aunty Rose is the witness Rosana Jones on the marraige certificate.



Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2016, 11:23:04 AM »
That's what I thought that the house was called Tan y Fynwent   ( Mynwent = Cemetery )  but it appears to have been spelt incorrectly in the 1891 Census.

Ty'n Llan  does roughly mean Church House, whereas Tan Y Fynwent means  near the Cemetery.

So it appears that the 1891 Census is the one you are looking for and John had 3 brothers at that time and no sisters but the later Census records should fill in the gaps and hopefully confirm everything for you.

In the 1891 Census there were two addresses nearby both called Cae'r  Eglwys which when translated into English means The Church Field.

If Grace's mother was born in Bangor then the custom was that the wedding would take place in the bride's town so those records will be at the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon

Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2016, 07:21:21 PM »
I've just seen both properties on Google and they are on either side of the Church.    I've been past them both many times when I've been out walking with my friend who lives in Llandegfan.
I'll pay more attention to them when I drive past next time.

Helig

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2016, 03:19:24 PM »
Hello there,

Helig had a day off yesterday and am still struggling to find John Jones and Margaret in the 1901, plus 1911, census returns.

I decided to go backwards to the 1881 census and see what that revealed. It looks promising as there is an entry in Llandegfan which matches this couple. They are living in 2 Rallt y Ferfa, Llandegfan. The household comprises:

John Jones, head, age 26, married, Fuller, born Llandegfan.
Margaret Jones, wife, age 25, born Llangoed.
Zachariah Jones, son ,age 1, born Llandegfan.

So, where was Zachariah in the 1891 census? He may be helpful to us as his name is unusual. I found him in the 1891 living with his grandparents in Llandegfan. The address is Cilhaul, Llandegfan. The household is as follows:

Zachariah Jones, head, married, age 76, Fuller, born Llangefni.
Anne Jones, wife, age 74, born Pentraeth, Anglesey.
Hannah Jones, unmarried, daughter, age 41, Schoolmistress, born Llandegfan.
Zachariah Jones, grandson, age 11, born Llandegfan.

All member of the household are bilingual.

Unfortunately, there is no sign of Zachariah, the younger, in later census returns.

There is a birth registration for a Zachariah Jones in Bangor, Anglesey, Registration District in the December quarter of 1879.

North Wales BMD has a birth for a Zachariah Jones registered in Beaumaris in 1879 with a mother's maiden name of Griffith.

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There are three possible marriages on FreeBMD for a John Jones to a Margaret but none has her surname of Griffith! North Wales BMD doesn't have coverage of Anglesey for marriages in this period.

Still no trace of John and Margaret in later years census returns!!

I found Zachariah and Anne Jones in the 1881 living in Pandy, Llandegfan, he is a Fuller then too. They have their daughter, Hannah with them as well.
Zachariah and Anne Jones are living in Pandy, Llandegfan in the 1871 census and this time they have a son, John Jones, age 16 and born Pentraeth. He is a Fuller as is his father.

I found Zachariah Jones in the 1901 census living in Pandy, Llandegfan and his details are as follows:

Zachariah Jones, widower, age 86, Fuller woollen, self employed, born Llangefni. Language: Welsh.
Hannah Jones, daughter, age 51, unmarried, Retired Schoolmistress, born Llandegfan.
Alfred Jones, grandson, age 13, born Llandegfan.

This gives us another link to John and Margaret Jones as they have a son, Alfred, age 3, in the 1891 census. So Zachariah and Alfred Jones, their grandchildren, together with the fact they have a son, John born c1855, may suggest that Zachariah and Anne Jones could be the parents of John Jones.

There is a death registered for a Zachariah Jones in April 1901 in Bangor, Anglesey District he was born c1815.

I shall pursue the other census returns etc and post again.

Helig











Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2016, 10:38:49 PM »
I found them in the 1901 Census and they were still living in Tan Y fynwent Llandegfan.    The page I was able to see only had three people living there.   The handwriting was bad but this is what was shown on the 1901 Census:-

John Jones aged 45
Marg  Jones aged 43
It looked like the 10 year old son was called Eleager but the writing was so bad I couldn't make it out properly and it may have been Elijer.
When I tried looking for it again I couldn't find it and neither could I find an entry for them for the 1911 Census

The other children must have all left the property by 1901

mull

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2016, 11:40:19 PM »
HI Hugo,
Thonk the house we want is Tyn Llan on the east side of the church.
Will resume searching Saturday night as I have to go to the shops in Oban tomorrow if the ferry is still running. Big southerly gale blowing tonight with heavy rain. Will be in touch tomrrow night.

Helig

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2016, 11:01:46 AM »
There are more entries on North Wales BMD which suggest that Margaret's maiden name was Griffith.

A birth registration for Frederick Jones in 1885 in Beaumaris Registration District. He is aged 5 in the 1891 census.

Another birth reg for Eliazer Jones in Beaumaris RD in 1891, he is aged 10 in the 1901 census.

Two entries for a Thomas Jones in 1881. He is aged 9 in the 1891 census.

An entry for an Alfred Jones in Beaumaris in 1888. He is aged 3 in the 1891 census.

All show mother's maiden name Griffith.

I cannot find them in either the 1901, or 1911, can you give me the reference number for the 1901 please, Hugo?

Helig.


Hugo

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2016, 12:17:58 PM »
Helig,  I'm sorry but I didn't keep a record of that 1901 Census that showed John Jones Snr , his wife whose name was shown as Marg. and their ten year old son whose name seemed to be Eleager but this could very well be the Eliazer that you've found if it wasn't for the fact that you found him in the 1901 Census.  What was the name of his parents in that Census?

Just for your info Llandegfan and Beaumaris are very close towns, probably only 2 miles apart.

In your previous postings of the Census details you are probably correct in saying that Zachariah Snr  is the father of John Jones Snr and like we know John Snr is the father of Mull's Taid  John Jones Jnr.   
From your searches Hannah the school mistress is John Snr's  sister.
You have found the G and GG Grandfathers and taken Mull's ancestry back to about 1815 but anything now prior to 1837 I believe will be in the Church Records or the Anglesey Archives in Llangefni

Just as an add on for info purposes, the island of Anglesey was cut off from the mainland until 1826 when Thomas Telford built the Menai Suspension Bridge so prior to that date travel from the island was by boat only so consequently travel would have been severely restricted prior to 1926 so there should be a lot of records available in the Anglesey Archives

Helig

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Re: Grace Ellen Jones 1885-1961
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2016, 11:32:18 AM »
Thank you, Hugo. I thought it might be helpful to summarise the information we have found on the siblings of John Jones b1883.

These are as follows:

Zachariah, born 1879
Thomas b1881
Frederick b1885
Alfred b1888
Eliazer b1891.

I don't know if anyone on this forum visits the archives in Llangefni. It would be possible to put a post on Rootschat as that may produce an offer to look up these people for more information. There is information on the coverage of the church registers on the Genuki site. I wonder whether they may have been non conformist.

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I think the only way to find them in the 1911 would be to do a place search of Llandegfan. I will have a try when time permits.

Helig.