Author Topic: European Union Vote  (Read 143135 times)

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Offline Merddin Emrys

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #150 on: June 17, 2016, 12:59:11 pm »
I am still on the fence, but will probably vote to remain, lots about the EU that I do not like, but leaving seems risky to me! I saw on the BBC yesterday that if we vote leave it will take 2 years to negotiate the terms of leaving. I saw this graph on Facebook which sums the whole thing up well!
A pigeon is for life not just Christmas

Offline Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2016, 01:00:34 pm »
What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

Fester...
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Online Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #152 on: June 17, 2016, 02:49:41 pm »
It's not easy because just about the only thing of which we can be certain is that if we leave we won't know what will happen. We do know what we have at the moment and, while I totally agree it's far from perfect, at least it's something of a known quantity.
If it helps anyone, this is a summary by CNN, who have no vested interest in either side:

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/16/europe/brexit-britain-immigration-referendum/

And on immigration, the high figures last month revealed something interesting: slightly less than 50% of the immigrants came from the EU...
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline born2run

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #153 on: June 17, 2016, 03:21:58 pm »
What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

What are the dead ones urging us to do?

Offline Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #154 on: June 17, 2016, 05:50:24 pm »
What I can't understand is that everybody who is anybody advocates we should remain and a bunch of failed Tory MPs trying to secure cabinet positions with BoJo as PM say we should leave by stating a load of lies and promises they can't hope to keep YET they appear to be winning.
Trump is also lying his way to US president with seemingly the same result.
What has the world come to???

Anyone who has ever been PM or Chancellor, ( that is still alive) is urging us to stay in the EU.
They know something I don't know, and they are not given to throwing money and sovereignty away, so what are they privy to?

What are the dead ones urging us to do?

I intend to conduct a seance to ascertain this information.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Bosun

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #155 on: June 19, 2016, 07:05:03 am »
This piece was written by a friend of mine, well done Mike....:

Tory MP Dr Sarah Wollaston has quit the Brexit campaign over what she says is the false claim that, outside the EU, the UK would be able to spend an extra £350 million per week on the NHS. I also find this claim frustrating because it is inaccurate on so many levels that it gives the Remainers an easy target.
The actual figures can be found on the BBC’s website and what they show is that the UK’s dues amount to some £19 billion (£360 million per week) but when you subtract the rebate (£4.4 billion)  that is reduced to £276 million per week. Then there is the money we receive in farm subsidies, Objective 1 and the rest (£6 billion) and we’re down to £161 million per week, net. Why use a figure that is patently false?

The problem is that what started out as a referendum on the EU has become a battle for the future leadership of the Tory party and as the old Greek Aeschylus is reputed to have said: “”In war, truth is the first casualty”.

It’s not as if the Remain side are beacons of truthfulness, though they seem to have given up on the one about 3.5 million UK jobs depending on our membership of the EU. The truth is that these jobs depend on our exports to the EU and, as we have a £60 billion trade deficit with our European partners, it follows that more than 3.5 million EU jobs depend on their exports to us. So, unless they want to cut off their noses to spite their faces, they will be as anxious to protect these trade-related jobs as we are.

This is especially so given that average EU unemployment (11%) is twice that of the UK (5.5%) with black spots in Greece (25.2%) Spain (22.2%) Portugal (12.4%) Italy (11.9%) and France (10.8%). (Source Eurostat) with only Germany, Czech Rep and Malta having unemployment lower than the UK, whilst Italy’s economy is still 8% smaller than it was before the financial crash of 2008.

So anyone who can can keep a straight face while claiming that the EU is good for jobs and growth deserves an Oscar.

But that hasn’t stopped George Osborne from bobbing up at regular intervals to tell us with deadly precision how this or that think tank has calculated how much Brexit will cost us in lost wages, increased mortgages, cuts in pensions etc, etc, etc.

The commentator Martin Lewis has pointed out that these predictions are based on assumptions fed into computer models and to present them as facts is a form of deception. As the great Danish physicist Niels Bohr said: “Predictions are tricky- especially when they are about the future” and the American economist J K Galbraith claimed that “Economic forecasting was invented to make astrology look respectable.”

So forget all these scare stories, whether about the country being swamped with immigrants if we remain , or we poor UK citizens grubbing about in the hedgerows for berries and roots if we leave. These are trivial issues compared to what really matters: sovereignty and democracy.

Much has been made of the amount of cash we receive back from the EU in farm subsidies, structural funds and other goodies. But what should be remembered is that this was our money originally and it comes with strings attached – we are not allowed to spend it on our own priorities.

In a speech earlier this week, Jeremy Corbyn claimed that the EU protected workers’ rights from the wicked Tories. He may be right about this, but, by the same token, EU competition rules would prevent a future Labour government from giving state aid to the steel industry. And, if it wanted to protect the industry against cheap Chinese imports by imposing tariffs, it would need to seek the agreement of our European partners.

These should be decisions for a government elected by the British people not the European Commission.

Unfortunately, the Labour Party has fallen into the trap described by the late Tony Benn as “preferring a good King to a bad Parliament”. But, as Benn was fond of pointing out, the thing about bad Parliaments is that the electorate has the power “to kick the blighters out”. In answer to this line of attack, Labour spokesman Chuka Umunna told the Today programme that the EU was democratic because all decisions have to be agreed by the elected heads of government who make up the Council of Ministers. This analysis flawed. First the Council meets in secret and, second, Mr Cameron can sign up to measures that he couldn’t possibly get through Parliament.

Conversely, if he is outvoted, the EU can impose a law on the UK even if it was opposed by every single member of our elected Parliament.

The undemocratic nature of the EU is no accident. Having witnessed the destruction visited on the continent by populist movements in the 1930s and 40s the EU’s founding fathers were determined not to let it happen again – hence the system of rule by elites, or as Tony Benn would have put it, a good King.
No doubt if we vote for Brexit there will be volatility on the markets because the whole EU edifice would be in danger.

Former Bank of England Governor Lord King has predicted the collapse of the Eurozone under the weight of its own contradictions and a Brexit vote will provide a handy scapegoat for what may be inevitable anyway. If Lord King is right, we Brexiters will eventually get the desired result without being saddled with the blame.

But the final word must go to Sajid Javid, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in Mr Cameron’s government. In an article in the Daily Mail last month, Mr Javid wrote:  It’s clear now that the United Kingdom should never have joined the EU. In many ways, it’s a failing project, an overblown bureaucracy in need of wide-ranging and urgent reform.

And he’s campaigning for Remain......
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Online Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2016, 07:49:13 am »
I saw this on the Old Grumpy website  - http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/ (oldgrumpy.mike@virgin.net) - and it's an interesting piece but I think it fails to deal fully with what he claims "really matters: sovereignty and democracy".

When he says: "EU competition rules would prevent a future Labour government from giving state aid to the steel industry." on the face of it, that would appear to be accurate, but last year the Government had the opportunity to subsidise the Redcar plant and then seek approval retrospectively. It didn't, and a lot of people wanted to know why, since France has a long record of doing what it wants in that regard. It seems the current government's belief in the absolute sanctity of the capitalist system was such that it believed buyers from the private sector would come flocking in. 

So the UK government can subsidise plants if it wishes. The real problem, of course, is that the Chinese steel industry is very heavily subsidised by the Chinese government. Makes the playing field a bit uneven.

But the democratic argument is one that reappears time and again. In theory - yes; it's possible that an unpopular law could be foisted on the UK, although I'm not sure we need to go the EU for unpopular laws being foisted on the populace in the UK, but the reality within the EU is one of pragmatic acceptance of the UK status as a powerful economy, and the UK has a veto over anything it doesn't really want.

I think his summary is fair, however. He says :"Having witnessed the destruction visited on the continent by populist movements in the 1930s and 40s the EU’s founding fathers were determined not to let it happen again" and that's true, of course. But he sneaks in "hence the system of rule by elites", which is a little naughty, since I suspect he knows that isn't the real truth.

But there's no doubt that the campaign's vitriolic nature (not in this piece, I hasten to add) has played a part with the unstable elements in society. Jo Cox's killer gave his name as "Death to Traitors - Britain first". Is this what we're really coming to?


Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Bosun

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #157 on: June 19, 2016, 08:23:43 am »
I think that overall, Mike wrote quite a reasonable piece; to fully answer 'really matters: sovereignty and democracy' would take possibly more column inches than are available here. France, and for that matter numerous other EU countries have a track record of doing what they want (including ignoring legislation) then seeking retrospective approval.

It's interesting that Mike and Jacob Williams are in the Bexit camp, I have to admit some surprise at that.

I'm saddened and sickened in equal degrees by this campaign and I suspect that like many others, I'm still not entirely sure which way I'll vote, however, looking at those in the 'Leave' camp as opposed to those to the 'Remain' camp is beginning to persuade me. 
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #158 on: June 19, 2016, 11:44:54 am »
I saw this on the Old Grumpy website  - http://oldgrumpy.co.uk/ (oldgrumpy.mike@virgin.net)

But there's no doubt that the campaign's vitriolic nature (not in this piece, I hasten to add) has played a part with the unstable elements in society. Jo Cox's killer gave his name as "Death to Traitors - Britain first". Is this what we're really coming to?

Ian, there are more and more examples of unstable individuals in every day life, I see them in my working life several times a day.  I am amazed how many of the people I see can actually function and get through the day.   
Internet trolls and stalkers too, how many of these have been reported to the police, multiple times , only for them to murder their victims and it become a controversy?  (One which quickly fades from the headlines)
There are so many unbalanced morons about, coupled with the aggressive political campaigning we have seen, that this mindless and savage act was becoming inevitable.
Fester...
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Offline Hugo

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #159 on: June 19, 2016, 02:48:37 pm »
We already have more than our fair share of dysfunctional people without having any more from outside the UK.

Offline Blongb

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #160 on: June 19, 2016, 11:12:10 pm »
We have to ask why the old mental institutions were shut down and all the poor Patients released in their thousands, into society, to try and function mostly without any adequate supervision or help.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline SDQ

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #161 on: June 20, 2016, 12:04:20 am »
We have to ask why the old mental institutions were shut down and all the poor Patients released in their thousands, into society, to try and function mostly without any adequate supervision or help.


Yet another one of Thatcher's policies (Care In The Community) that took a generation to evolve into what we have today.
Valar Morghulis

Offline born2run

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #162 on: June 20, 2016, 08:43:14 am »
We already have more than our fair share of dysfunctional people without having any more from outside the UK.

What about the very large proportion of mental health doctors and nurses (as well as other health professionals) tha are born outside the UK and give much needed care?

Online Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #163 on: June 20, 2016, 08:57:39 am »
It seems the Brexit camp like censorship:

"The official Brexit campaign excluded Channel 4 News from its rally on Sunday amid complaints from its chief spin doctor that he was unhappy with the tone of the programme’s coverage.

Vote Leave’s head of press, Robert Oxley, criticised Channel 4 News political correspondent Michael Crick and refused to admit him and his colleagues to the event at the Old Billingsgate fish market in London, at which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove spoke. Oxley told the programme’s political team that the rally, which ended up being sparsely attended, was oversubscribed. “Furthermore, all Michael Crick does is take the piss,” he told one of the programme’s producers.

It is not the first time Crick has had a run-in with the Brexit campaign. At an event in Salford in April, Boris Johnson – who was giving a speech – urged supporters to interrupt Crick’s live broadcast because it was distracting him.

Speaking to the Guardian, Crick said he had been in the wrong to do the broadcast and said he had privately apologised to the former London mayor and his staff.

In a separate incident, the journalist said he upset Brexit campaigners when he ignored their instructions not to attempt to ask Boris Johnson any questions at a campaign event. “That’s not taking the piss, that’s doing my job,” Crick said.

And, in a third incident, he claimed that Brexit supporters were unhappy when he pointed out that the business hosting an event at which the campaign sought to highlight immigration, itself employed Polish immigrants.

On Saturday, event organisers told a Channel 4 News producer that the news team had not been properly accredited and that there was no room for them. While the journalists had spoken to the Brexit campaign about attending on the phone, they had not sent a request via email, they were told.

Vote Leave said: “Michael’s team were informed that they had failed to accredit for the event thus they were not granted entry.”
Oxley said that Crick had “certainly been disruptive at events, talking over speakers for example”, but insisted he was denied entry because he was not properly accredited."
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #164 on: June 22, 2016, 11:21:12 am »
Rather than abandoning Europe, I think it is time we make Europe work for us.

Professor Dylan Jones-Evans on the EU Referendum debate.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dylan_Jones-Evans

Over the last few weeks, there have been many claims of what a vote to stay in or exit the Europe Union will do to this nation.

Regardless of the noise being generated on both sides, the outcome will be decided predominantly by whether the strong economic arguments over remaining in Europe will trump the fears that some are expressing over high levels of immigration.

In terms of the impact of the EU referendum on the future of the UK economy, the main consideration for businesses is that of stability over the medium term.

It is accepted by both sides that there would be considerable economic turmoil if the UK votes to leave and great uncertainty over what would happen over the next few years to the economy.
MORE   http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business/business-opinion/abandoning-europe-think-time-make-11507926