European Union Vote

[Bosun]

I'm not a Daily Mirror reader, I dislike the paper on several levels, but I came across this article by Martin Lewis who I do have time for and it does make a sensible non-partisan view on the debate. It's well worth reading for it's factual financial content.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/money-saving-expert-martin-lewis-8121255#ICID=sharebar_facebook

[Ian]

I agree.  It's a very fair summary of the issues.

[Fester]

It's a shame that there is so little impartial information available.
As it stands, I still cannot bring myself to vote at all.
It appears that if we leave the EU, it will spell the end of the world,  but if we stay in we face Armageddon.   I don't want my vote to be responsible for either of those eventualities.

Yesterday, I watched with deep dismay, the Victoria Derbyshire debate, where a large group of 'Remain' voters, and a large group of 'Leave' voters lambasted each other for an hour, and it got completely out of control.
The 'undecided' people invited along can have made no progress whatsoever.
So heated have I seen some debates getting, that I am surprised they haven't yet come to blows, maybe it will nearer the time?

I wonder what will happen if we we leave the EU, and the young generation who want Brady to stay in feel aggrieved?  There's no going back,  we could see some serious backlash.

[Hugo]

Which ever side you are on in the in or out referendum on Europe,  I don't think anyone can argue that we do have absolute control on our borders at present.
We are not part of the Schengen Agreement  and Albania is not part of the EU yet 18 Albanians arrived on our shores recently and as far as I am aware are still here.
They are not asylum seekers or otherwise they would have claimed asylum in Greece, Italy or any other country that they have passed through.  They are simply illegal migrants.
Australia would simply put them on the next plane back home so why can't we?

[Ian]

That specific issue won't be changed one way or another, though. The odd thing is that we do have the instruments to control immigration;  it's simply that no government has chosen to use them.

Yesterday, I watched with deep dismay, the Victoria Derbyshire debate, where a large group of 'Remain' voters, and a large group of 'Leave' voters lambasted each other for an hour, and it got completely out of control. The 'undecided' people invited along can have made no progress whatsoever.

I've noticed the worrying tendency for folk to ally themselves, strongly, to one side or another and become increasingly unpleasant and vociferous in stating their convictions. What makes it even stranger is that there's little real information on which to base their seemingly entrenched views, although I have a feeling that the pro-leave press, mostly owned by the egregious Murdoch and other expats, such as the Barclay Brothers, and of course the DFM owner, Viscount Rothermere Baron Rothermere, whose tax affairs have been contrived to see him pay almost no tax on the hundreds of millions of pounds in DMGT dividends channelled over the years through Bermudan-registered Rothermere Continuation Ltd into the trust of which he and his family are beneficiaries, may be having some influence.

And here's a thought: if the ex-pat or tax-dodging segment of the press are pushing so hard to Leave, perhaps that can only be because they hope to gain something out of it? I doubt it's from the goodness of their hearts...

[Hugo]

Now, now Ian,  don't let the affection you have for the DFM cloud your judgement on this issue, try and stay focused.   
 I'm still undecided and the only thing I know for certain is that there are a lot of liars in Parliament.  To say they are economical with the truth is an understatement.
As regards your comment  that we do have the instruments to control immigration then why hasn't any UK Government had the nerve to do what the Australian Government does and put them back on the next available plane.
We need to toughen up our rules on immigration and get the resources out there to deal with the problem

[Ian]

 

On immigration, if you really look into it you'll find that successive governments have held back from implementation on several grounds including (but not limited to) skills shortage, commonwealth reciprocal relationships, University funding and a lot more. As I say the issue is not the EU but rather expediency. The other factor is that the Tory government some years ago virtually demolished Customs when they introduced the Border force, slashed jobs in HMRC and Customs and then sat back and wondered how that had worked out for themselves.

On In or Out there are no facts on which you can depend. All we know for certain is how it works at the moment, and that changes, and that leaving will produce significant uncertainty. And we have no idea how it will work out if we choose to leave. But at the moment we're part of a big club and I suspect a lot of the Tory leavers still harbour the illusion that we're a great world power.  I don't think we are any more, and going it alone will be a risk. Yes - we'll still be part of NATO, still a voice on and a permanent member of the Security Council but we'll no longer have unfettered access to our largest trading bloc. Things might work out, but there are two aspects that concern me.

The most important in my mind is that if it becomes a mess, it's not a mess we'll have to sort out: it will affect our children. We have two boys and they both travel around Europe a fair bit. They also have a lot of foreign friends and I suspect it might be rather selfish to vote in a way that could leave them to pick up the pieces.

I think the second factor is that - like it or not - the world is shrinking. No country these days can pursue a policy of isolationism. We depend on Europe and other countries in a multitude of ways, and I suspect that dependence won't suddenly disappear if we vote to leave. Since we have this interdependence I think it makes sense to ensure we're part of a larger group. There is strength in numbers.

[Merddin Emrys]

Interestingly after many years of wanting out, mainly because of all the stories of EU regulations being blamed for problems here (mostly untrue stories it seems!), I am just on the side of staying in! I regard all of the comments from the remain and leave groups as being similar to the extremes of Tripadvisor reviews, ie the truth is somewhere in the middle. I regard the EU in it's present form as far from ideal, but I believe that we are better off in it and helping to reform it, if we leave we will still be very much influenced by the EU with no means of changing anything. So, I will be voting to remain, if you had told me that a few years ago, I would have laughed out loud! I hope I have come to the right logical decision! 

[Ian]

This is going the rounds:

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/what-is-in-brexit-mystery-box.html

[DaveR]

intetesting to see that one of Labour's few plain speakers, Dennis Skinner, has joined the Leave side. I suspect many Labour voters also harbour anti-EU sentiment.

[Ian]

They do, indeed. But Skinner sees himself as a performer rather than an MP. And the continuing issue is that there are no categorical or precise figures for what will happen if we leave. The only thing we know is that we don't know.

[Hugo]

That's all true Ian and that is why it's so difficult to decide what to do for the best for the UK.    Immigration is the thing that worries me the most, we need migrants for our economy but preferably skilled English speaking ones.
It's also the fact that we have no control over the numbers of migrants we allow in from the EU and despite what you say about having controls over non EU migrants they still flood in.
Take the case of the 18  non EU economic migrants from Albania that arrived on our shores in May, what has happened to them?     There must have been a plane already available to deport them but I don't think it has happened,
I suspect that this Government has deliberately suppressed any Press releases for fear of the effect that it may have on the outcome of the EU referendum.
As for renegotiating our deal with Europe, hasn't Cameron tried it and he was about as much use as a chocolate tea cup

[Ian]

It's curious: we can refuse entry to anyone, but we never seem to use that.  Or - which I suspect is more likely - the anti-EU media only tell us about those that stay.

I know I've said it before but I feel the strongest argument for remaining is to look at the people advocating we leave. The Murdoch media, the Barclay brothers - if it helps them for us to leave then there's  clearly an agenda many of us aren't privy to.

[smg id=3350]

[Bosun]

Just for balance....

[Hugo]

It's curious: we can refuse entry to anyone, but we never seem to use that.  Or - which I suspect is more likely - the anti-EU media only tell us about those that stay.

I know I've said it before but I feel the strongest argument for remaining is to look at the people advocating we leave. The Murdoch media, the Barclay brothers - if it helps them for us to leave then there's  clearly an agenda many of us aren't privy to.

[smg id=3350]

The truth is that the inability to evict illegal or unwanted migrants from the UK is down to the EU.    The European Court of Human Rights blocks most of the UK's potential deportation cases.
Such is the stupidity of the system that if an illegal immigrant is caught and volunteers to be deported we can then immediately deport them but we give them between £500.00 to £3000.00 so that they can rehabilitate themselves in their home country.
Now if that illegal immigrant returns to the UK illegally and is caught again then it is their Human Rights to to go through  the same procedure again.
It's just crazy.

As for the Murdoch media and Barclay brothers I wouldn't pay too much attention to their bluff, it's just hot air.     I can remember back to the days just prior to when Labour had a landslide victory in the General election,   there were dozens of rich Tory sympathisers threatening to leave the UK and go abroad to places like Barbados and other countries but sadly when Labour did win the election not one of them went.