Author Topic: European Union Vote  (Read 61376 times)

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Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #390 on: March 24, 2019, 01:08:41 PM »
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What is important is the number of votes cast by either side and if the outcome is unacceptable to some then why bother with the referendum in the first course

We ought not to have had the referendum. I agree with that and Cameron only had it because he was terrified Farage might herald a lot of Tory MPs leaving to join UKIP.

But I've never considered the simplistic notion that it's only the number of votes that counts to be valid; where major decisions of the magnitude of this are taken then it has to be demonstrably the will of the majority of the electorate, not simply those who voted. Otherwise, you're allowing a minority to dictate the future for the majority, and there's no way that can be described as democratic.

There's also the feedback which suggested a lot who voted leave did so because they disliked Cameron - a worrying motive in itself, but certainly not a justifiable foundation for the outcome.

In terms of lies, whom should we hold responsible when the NHS collapses through lack of funds? Because the Leave campaign convinced a lot that  £350m was what it cost per month to stay in the EU - the biggest lie of all.

Politicians don't all lie; I know some (Tory, in fact) personally and they're very open and honest.  They're just not the ones who make the headlines.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #391 on: March 24, 2019, 03:00:23 PM »
What ever happened to the principle of changing one’s mind?
We have some, although not a lot, more information than we had 3 years ago.  So why not vote again?
If I saw a car in a showroom 3 years ago and indicated that I wanted to buy it, I wouldn’t be forced to buy it three years later if I subsequently discovered it was crap?
The Brexiteers are terrified of a second referendum, and get very unpleasant about the idea, as the used car salesman would be.
But why should they be?   Surely if Brexit is a good idea then even more folk will turn out and vote for it.
I don’t care if Leave is the outcome of a 2nd referendum, I just think that the people deserve to say whether they still think what they thought 3 years ago.
Fester...
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Robbie G

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #392 on: March 24, 2019, 04:42:09 PM »
 Ian And Fester you both seem to be very selective on your second votes ,everyone was given the choice to vote .that you disagree with the result is understandable ,but you seem to suggest that every election should be rerun if you disagree with the result . All the M .Ps agreed to honour the result by a large majority they should respect the voters wishes that's what democracy is , I have not heard any mention of a second referendum for the W.A. that was carried by the slimmest of margins ,but parliament agreed to honour the electorate,  democracy prevailed.   

Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #393 on: March 24, 2019, 05:21:04 PM »
But Robbie, there is a chance to change my mind every four years or so in a general election, if I decide I don’t like the outcome.
Brexit will be getting on for four years soon.
Why should we be trapped into a crap situation if new facts come to light?
Fester...
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Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #394 on: March 25, 2019, 07:56:58 AM »
Agreed. Fester's summed it up perfectly.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

mull

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #395 on: March 25, 2019, 09:34:59 AM »
Well said Fester.
It has taken nearly 3 years to negotiate our way out of the EU. Without sucess during which a lot of information has comev to light that was unknown by most people in 2016,especially the conduct of Mr Banks and co.
We get a chance to vote in General Election every few years.
Why not let people have another vote now all the extra information is out in the open. Time moves on and and does not stand still and peoples views change over time.

Hugo

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #396 on: March 25, 2019, 03:35:54 PM »
It's a right mess all right and Teresa May was saying that they will have a third vote on her deal this week. the same deal that has been soundly beaten twice already.
Now that the DUP has said that they may not support her, the deal seems to be off the table.       This Brexit thing should not be about Party politics and they should consider what is best for the UK

Immigration may have been a large factor in the Brexit vote but immigrants have been coming over the English Channel in small boats recently but what is the Government doing to stop them coming over.   They process them and then release them into the community with conditions attached that they are unlikely to keep to.     It won't improve even if Brexit goes ahead they will still be doing the same thing again



Robbie G

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #397 on: March 25, 2019, 04:36:59 PM »
Fester  you miss the point the referendum was a democratic vote all the M. Ps. had a free vote in parliament and they decided to accept the result that's democracy .
The problem as I see it is the establishment never though they would lose the debate or the vote ,to have another vote because people fore what ever reason didn't take the option the first time is undemocratic to say the least , you cannot have a rerun unless you have reason of malpractice or corruption etc .
You can hope that some political party will have a policy in their manifesto to reapply for membership .   

Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #398 on: March 25, 2019, 06:59:13 PM »
I didn’t miss your point Robbie, I was making a different one, because if we could have made a non damaging clean break from the EU it would have been over and done by now.
But it couldn’t be done, so the result is now old and stale.
What’s wrong with asking the population if they STILL feel the same?
Fester...
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Robbie G

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #399 on: March 25, 2019, 07:16:47 PM »
Fester you can vote again as I suggest in my last post when there is another general election , as for a clean break it was estimated that it would take at least 2years of negotiations to come to some form of agreement , however I can appreciate your point that it has been a long drawn out fiasco , the E.U. where in no mood to let us leave without their pound of flesh . 

Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #400 on: March 25, 2019, 08:02:03 PM »
I'm not sure the EU are the villains of this piece. Britain is currently the laughing stock of Europe; the in-fighting in all the main political parties would be comical if it weren't tragic and the sheer deceit used by the leave campaigners, with absolutely no facts to back them up, was a travesty of Democracy.

We don't govern by plebiscite.  The Referendum was simply advisory and in the past three years a lot has changed.  The real democratic course now would be to return to the people and ask them if this is what they want, now a lot more is known about the consequences.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #401 on: March 25, 2019, 11:45:22 PM »
I would ask the Average person what they now think, but I can’t because the average person is ... Chinese!
Fester...
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Robbie G

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #402 on: March 26, 2019, 02:53:45 PM »
IAN you quote that the referendum was simply  advisory . on that basis we became members of the E. U. on the result of a referendum ( a trade pact not a political union) therefore we should have no reason to accept that result , on the deceit of the leavers it is a mater of opinion who where the most deceitful the establishment and the B.B.C. with their biased comments  have not been anything but deceitful ,things change over a period of time as you say you cannot have another referendum on that basis , you are of the opinion that it will be a catastrophe if and when we leave that is all conjecture ,I would rather be ruled by our politicians however inept they appear to be than some unelected official from the E.U.     

Ian

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #403 on: March 26, 2019, 04:16:10 PM »
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IAN you quote that the referendum was simply  advisory . on that basis we became members of the E. U. on the result of a referendum

No;  we became members because the MPs agreed it was the best course of action.

Quote
on the deceit of the leavers it is a mater of opinion who where the most deceitful the establishment and the B.B.C. with their biased comments  have not been anything but deceitful

Well, I know for certain that the Leaver bus was emblazoned with a direct lie. The Leave campaign has also just been fined £40k for misleading in 200K spam emails, and deleting the evidence in the hope they wouldn't be found out. And last month Brexiter Arron Banks’ insurance biz Eldon was fined £120k for dodging direct marketing rules. So not exactly a clean track record.

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you are of the opinion that it will be a catastrophe if and when we leave that is all conjecture ,I would rather be ruled by our politicians however inept they appear to be than some unelected official from the E.U.     

Well, here's the thing.  You're not "ruled by some unelected official from the E.U."  Nothing can become EU law unless we agree to it. So by saying you prefer our MPs over unelected officials reveals a somewhat distorted version of reality.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Fester

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Re: European Union Vote
« Reply #404 on: March 26, 2019, 09:08:42 PM »
I see these accusations about the BBC being biased all over the Internet.
I view that as being one of the most paranoid and disappointing opinions I’ve ever heard.
The lengths that the Beeb go to to be impartial are extreme.
They are regulated to death....
Where are these examples of bias?
Fester...
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