Wyddfydd Road, Great Orme 1927

[Kaye]

 Hugo ,If you are able to do that look-up at the archive when you are next there  it would be great .

Regarding the building Company I have not  found anything historical   online or by looking at the online Conwy

archive under the Company's name or under rent books but I might just make an enquiry at the present office.


Thankyou Cambrian for that information.John Williams of 3,Cyll Terrace maybe my great grandfather,or great uncle .In 1922 both Johns 

were bricklayers. This is the first reference I have seen to plastering ,although on the censuses which I thought could be

possibles John Williams Senior(Alexandra Road) was a bricklayer in 1911, and possibly a builder in 1901.He may earlier have

been a master mason.Anyway  all in  related trades so I may be on the right track  .It also seems a connection with the in-

laws the Hobsons.Thanks very much again.

I have had a good look at The Hobson site,too.

One of the witnesses at the marriage of John Williams and Margaret Hobson is  a Hugh Hobson.


 


 

[Hugo]

Kaye,  I went to the Conwy Archives and this is what I found:-

I looked at the Burial Index for St Tudno's Church but there is no grave with a headstone recorded for Patricia Annie Williams, the Archivist looked at the records on their computer and again could find no record for her either.   This is not to say that she is not buried there, just that the records may not be up to date.

I then looked at the 1930 Llandudno Advertisers but there  is no trace of an obituary notice in the paper.

In the 1927 Baptism record at No 576 is a record for her ( see photo )
Patricia Annie Williams was Baptised on 31st July 1927.   Her mother was Phyllis Williams but there was no mention of the father of the child. The address was given as 3 Cyll Terrace Great Orme.
I assume from this that the child was illegitimate

The Burial Register showed that Patricia Annie Williams died at the Isolation Hospital Llandudno  ( I checked and it was the one in Maesdu Road, see photo taken today)   See photo of the Burial Register which I think that you have.

I have enclosed a photo of 9 Wyddfyd  Road ( No 9 has a large dormer roof with the two windows)   and will take a photo of Cyll Terrace as soon as I can.

The 1929 Street Index shows a John Williams, plasterer as the bread winner and he must have been the father or brother of Phyllis.

[Kaye]

 Hugo,I am so thrilled at what you have discovered.

All I knew a few months ago was Patricia's first name, approximate age, death from diphtheria  , a connection with the

Great Orme and the  decade she lived in.By studying records in North Wales BMD I established the years of birth and death

 and middle name.Then through applying for those  certificates the  cause of death was indeed diphtheria and the addresses

  linked her to the Great Orme .

She was baptised about 6 weeks after being born in Wyddfyd Road and the fact that Phyllis is at 3,Cyll Tce then and at the

time of the burial indicates to me this was likely her primary residence and Wyddfyd road the place of birth only.

I have not yet verified any connection.

 Were you   able to confirm that it was Maesdu Rd that was the Isolation Hospital,Llandudno through records at the archives?

It is interesting that the priest seems to have written Holyhead? by mistake  first.

Patricia died on 14th April 1930 so was buried just 2 days later.That's far quicker than by today's standards .I suppose it's
 
possible Phyllis left the area after the death without arranging a headstone but you seem to indicate there may be outstanding

information yet to be collated and I don't know when she left.

It is very pleasing to have these records of Patricia's short life.

The photos of Wyddfyd road are very good,thankyou.I shall keep investigating the connection.

Phyllis had spoken to my mother  of brothers John and Roland and a sister Gladys( who had died). This link with 3, Cyll Terrace

 in 1927 isn't too big a leap perhaps to  a record I found online for a 1922 parish register record of marriage -  John O T

Williams ,bricklayer ,of3 Cyll Terrace to Margaret Hobson of 1,Cyll Terrace (at St.George's.)However it could be a

coincidence and I will continue to look for missing pieces .

I look forward to seeing Cyll Tce.It's very difficult to picture all this when I am not familiar with the area.I can't wait to come

and see it all for myself! Thanks so much Hugo for your work.
 
(Maybe next time I post I will change it to Wyddfyd Rd/Cyll Rd to move with the latest info.I also think it would be interesting

to explore the hazards of illness pre-vaccination and NHS and may post a new thread on those lines)

[Hugo]

Thanks Kaye,   I'll try and post a photo of Cyll Terrace tomorrow if I go to Llandudno.   

The Street indexes are good as they list the people in alphabetical order so you can find out where the people lived, the only problem is that they only list one person at that address and that person is quite often the breadwinner.  It also lists businesses, hospitals etc and that is why I know that the Isolation Hospital was in Maesdu Road

The Burial Indexes list the graves with headstones but the computer records are not up to date as info is awaited from the Church.  However if there is no headstone, I have been advised that they do not know who is buried in the unmarked graves!

The 1911 Census should give the details of Phyllis' parents and siblings.   Have you found their details?
Did Phyllis get married.  If she did do you know where and her married name?

Records such as Wedding Banns,  Register of Electors are available at the Archives too in case you need to know any particular thing.

[Kaye]

1911
The family that has most connections seems be at 46,Alexandra Road,Llandudno
Head-John Williams bricklayer 48 yrs born Llandudno,able to speak Welsh and English.
Wife-Annie Williams Married 19years 6 children born,5 still living ,1 dead,birthplace born Llandudno Junction
4 children are with them that evening
John Owen Tudno, 12 at school, speaks both
Caradog Roland     10 speaks both
both sons
and 2 daughters,Phyllis 16,domestic servant
and Adelaide Nellie 6,also speaking both languages.
All children born in Llandudno

[Kaye]

Sorry,ran out of room.
1901 1have found a family with similar details at Winllan Avenue.
Head John 39yrs builder,born Llandudno,speaking both
Wife  Ann 36yrs         born Denbigh Glan Conway 
Gladys,8 born Llandudno speaks English
JOT     2
Caradog 11months 

I have not found Phyllis for 1901and I don't know if Gladys had died by 1911 or left home to work.That leaves another child whose name I don't know.
I have a baptism ref. for a Caradog Roland 1900   parents John, a mason  and Annie of Northern Grove,Mael Gwyn Tce,Llandudno
I have a possible birth for Phyllis 1894 parents ,John a master stonemason and Ann ,formerly Edwards at 3,Llwynon Gardens,
Llandudno.
I can't be totally sure these are the same family yet as I have seen other John Williams who are Masons.

Would you be able to tell me anything about Denbigh Glan Conway,pob for Ann given in1901?
Does this relate to Llandudno Junction given as pob in 1911?
Thanks for your help




   

[Hugo]

It's very difficult finding families when they have a common name like John Williams and you need to be absolutely certain that you have the right family before you make requests for those expensive certificates.
Leave it with me and I'll have a think about it.

[Hugo]

I went up the Great Orme today and took these photos for you.    No 1 Cyll Terrace is the end house on the left with No 3 being the next door but one.    The Terrace is very near the top of the Orme and if you have a look at the photo I took on my walk yesterday,  there is a white building near the top of the Orme and the terrace is just above that but is out of sight.
The little Church of St Beuno  (now a private residence ) is probably where Patricia's Baptism took place and is about 200 yards from Cyll Terrace.
The Church of St Tudno is further away and here's a photo of part of the graveyard  where Patricia would have been buried.

[Hugo]

I went to the Conwy Archive to look at the 1911 Wales Census for Phyllis.    The first entry that appeared on the list was the one that you have recorded above and I had a good look at it.

I have no evidence whatsoever but I've got doubts that this person is your Phyllis as she would have been about 33 when she had Patricia and I pressume that she went on to have other children later, your mother for example.

As I could not find a Phyllis that matched up on the 1911 Census I checked the Baptism records for Llandudno  as Phyllis may have been born after April 1911 and wouldn't appear on that Census.   That could have made her about 16 when she gave birth to Patricia but unfortunately I could not see an entry for her in the Baptism Register so that didn't prove anything.

Do you know when Phyllis was born?   The headstone on her grave may have that info if you're not sure

[Hugo]

Just an add on to your posting yesterday about Glan Conwy and Llandudno Junction,  they are two different places but are only a mile or two apart.
In the Census records for 1911 and prior Llandudno Junction was in the county of Caernarfonshire.
Glan Conwy  ( full name Llansanffraid Glan Conwy)   was in the county of Denbighshire
However they both fell into the Registration District of Conwy.

[Hugo]

Kaye,  I don't subscribe to any of the Ancestry or Find my past searches as I always go to the Library or Archives where it is free.
I was just trying out the various sites on Google and came across a number of Phyllis Williams that were born in Llandudno.
In the 1911 Census there was a Phyllis May Williams who was aged two,  another was Phyllis Williams who was aged three.    I might be mistaken but they appear to be the most  likely to be your Phyllis as they would both have been about 19 or 20 when Patricia was born
Unfortunately I wasn't able to view their records but I can in the Archives. 
I don't know how I missed them when I searched in the Archives for the 1911 Census but I can look at them next week hopefully.

[Hugo]

Hi Kaye,   I've just had a nice chat with a cousin of mine about your search and he's advised me that he knows someone from the Williams side of the family who remembers details of Phyllis' family.
This person is also a forum member and my cousin has asked him to make contact with you via the forum.  By coincidence I do know him  personally, having grown up with him when we were teenagers.
He's a really nice guy and I hope that he does contact you on the forum and I'm sure that he'll be an invaluable help with your family search.
 ££$

[Kaye]

Hugo-Thankyou so much for all the wonderful photos and your thoughts and help.

I think I may have to be patient and wait until the release of the 1921 survey before going further back as I agree one must be careful not to leap to conclusions without good verification. From the age given on Phyllis' death certificate,presuming it was accurate ,the age on the censuses would be about right.There may be reasons why she had a family later in life.(The first World War must also have affected this generation )

However I  have more knowledge of Patricia Annie than I did before joining the forum and if possible shall visit before Christmas.It is good to know about her baptism and that she was buried on the Great Orme as my mother believed even if there is no headstone.It would be wonderful if the person who knows the details would be in touch.I gather there is a personal message service on here which may be useful as I realise that some issues may be sensitive.

Thanks again.Kaye

 

[Ian]

Kaye: I've edited your post to remove the gaps, possibly caused by the device on which you're typing. A tip: you can do this yourself if you click on "Preview" before you post.  It will then display your post exactly as it will appear in here, and you can make changes in the 'Post' box before pressing "Post".

 

[Hugo]

Hi Kaye,  I don't think that you have to wait until the 1921 Census comes out as I can tell you that you've found the correct family with your 1901 find at Winllan Avenue Llandudno.
I'll leave it up to the Williams family member to contact you on here and then you can sort things out with him by PM or whatever.
When I spoke to my cousin Norman yesterday I had to laugh when he told me something.   I thought that Phyllis at the age of 33 may have been to old to be your relative but I couldn't have been so wrong.
The person who I hope will soon make contact with you is a Williams and one of 9 children and his mother had him when she was 49     
It must be in the Williams genes!