Author Topic: The Changing Face of Llandudno  (Read 44762 times)

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Fester

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #120 on: June 26, 2015, 11:05:04 PM »
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To survive perhaps these kiosks need to provide something unique that the other shops can't?

Ahh, but surely many already do!
Have a walk down there and ask yourself where else could I buy;

A £450 bizarre original drawing of a bunny?
A figurine of a meerkat dressed as Elvis?
A bottle of the world famous Llandudno 'Snake Oil', the cure for all ills, and the elixir of life!
A photograph of your own 'psychic aura'?  .. and for an extra £35 you can have an interview with your deceased Grandmother?
A genuine Llandudno conch shell from Bangkok?


Fester...
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snowcap

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #121 on: June 26, 2015, 11:11:38 PM »
that would be a waste of £35 Fester i would,nt be able to understand most of what she would say as she only spoke welsh.

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #122 on: June 27, 2015, 08:51:55 AM »
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Where the Grandparents have lost is through the pathetic return of their savings which some rely on to supplement their pension to give them a higher standard of living. Most will have paid off their houses so their loss can't be offset by the gain of record low interest rates on mortgages.

Yes - of course. Very good point.

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I don't really know what you want me to say?  I can't be anymore direct than I have been.
Parts of town are very quiet, more quiet than ever... and the TYPES of people who make up the remainder of the footfall have changed quite dramatically this last couple of years.

Really what I'm trying to see is exactly which types we're talking about, and how each of those types can be identified and communicated with.  For instance, last week a large group of Jewish girls came into a cafe - clearly to use the toilets - and bought very little, although they were exceptionally polite. Later on we encountered a very large group - clearly a coach load - of what I suspect were Charedi, to judge from their clothing, walking down to West Shore.

Is it this sort of thing you're talking about?  There has been a significant rise in the past six years in the amount of property purchased by various Jewish groups, for instance, but Judaism is a homogeneous culture, so many lack the ostensible trappings of the Orthodox groups. But these groups comprise a very small part of the overall visitor numbers, to be fair.  They're more obvious but I suspect that's it, really.

In the summer months we do get coach loads of Hindi and Sikh visitors from Manchester, and they can be delightful. But we've been seeing them for years. Is this what you mean?
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #123 on: June 27, 2015, 08:56:36 AM »
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that would be a waste of £35 Fester i would,nt be able to understand most of what she would say as she only spoke welsh.

I think F also sells Universal Translators...

[*££] [*££] [*££]
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Michael

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #124 on: June 27, 2015, 08:35:26 PM »
  Hello Ian, I am being brave and just dipping my toe in this thread. But----no long arguments or discussions. No, its just you mention Charedi. To quote you "clearly a coach load."
   Possible, but highly unlikely. There is'ent a Charedi coach company in the country, and any outsiders to use the best description I can think would have great difficulty in hiring a coach.
   Why? Well here I write from personal experience being involved in coaching for thirty years. Its not that the Charedi are badly behaved. Goodness only knows the behaviour of most of the coach travellers to shall we say Blackpool are just about as bad as you can get.
  No, its because the charedi are STRANGE. At least they are strange to anyone not familiar with them. And that is the only word I can use to describe them.
  Up to 150 of them used to stay in Howells School in Denbigh every summer. They all travelled up from London by coach. Every one of the three coaches hired refused absolutely to take them anywhere whilst they were in North Wales, The drivers just couldn't cope with the way they behaved. Not badly. Just different. Very different.
   My firm reluctantly took over, and I was involved. I won't go further but the nearest I can say is that it was like trying to connect with people from a different planet. Strange little men from Mars would have been easy by comparison.

white rabbit

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #125 on: June 27, 2015, 08:47:50 PM »
I refer to Fester's early post about the kind of people he observes on the pier - I think you could see most of the people he describes walking in  Mostyn Street and around the town every day during the summer season and they are all bringing something to the town ££$

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #126 on: June 28, 2015, 08:36:15 AM »
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No, its because the charedi are STRANGE.

They're brought up to believe that all non-Charedi hate them, Mike. Their only education is biblical, and status in that society, which routinely communicates through Hebrew, is dependent on knowledge of the Torah. Marriages are both early and arranged and restrictions on their lifestyle are enormous.

Judaism is essentially a religious coalition, in that there are numerous sects and sub-sects, some of which (exactly as in Christianity) are so extreme they beggar belief. The more extreme Jewish groups won't talk to non-Jews, certainly won't eat with them, are allowed only a very prescriptive diet of food prepared in a certain way and (more importantly) by the 'right' people. This engenders behaviour which is certainly viewed as strange by many, especially by those who believe in and attempt to encourage multi-racial societies. Most worryingly, however (and this applies to virtually every religion across the globe) they are imbued with the belief they are innately superior to non-Charedi or non-followers.

They're a minority group within Judaism and there're a lot of Jewish scholars concerned about their approach to education, life and belief.

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“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.



Jonty Hammers

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #127 on: June 28, 2015, 05:10:22 PM »
(On an interesting side-note, a Jewish acquaintance of mine once recounted an anecdote about how he'd once engaged with some of the more Orthodox-minded visitors to Llandudno, and asked them why they liked it so much as a visitor destination - they, only partly tongue-in-cheek, replied: "It's the only place we can take the boys to a nice beach where they won't see young women in bikinis.")

Right - if we're to delve down in to race demographics (and so long as things remain civil, don't see why not - they will figure importantly as cultural and religious backgrounds will inform and guide what people buy, after all), I have to admit I'm out of my depth in this one. No clue where the main streams of ethnic minority visitors to Llandudno will come from or from which backgrounds - but as others have noted, the changing face of Llandudno will mirror national trends.

I know it'd be ridiculous to enforce - as you'd have to pay someone to stand at a kiosk all day handing out tickets or manning a turnstile - but has the idea of an entrance fee to the pier ever been mooted? I imagine it would cheese off people in Fester's position as it could easily threaten their business by putting off visitors. That said, if you only charged something like 50p and made it free for kids under 12, that would be a revenue stream which the pier owners don't otherwise have, which would then hopefully allow them to ease up the rates on traders AND help keep up a funding pot for general maintenance and overall improvement of the pier. That way, it solves the problem of people coming on to the pier and enjoying a leisurely walk in impressive seaside surroundings but not buying anything. Of course, it could also nark locals no end as they'd be used to walking on the pier for free.

I have to admit (apologies in advance to Fester!) while I have walked on the pier scores, if not hundreds, of times, I don't think I've ever bought anything from the kiosks. That said, I have made use of the arcades and the bar at the far end, plus ice creams etc, so some of my money (at least) will have gone in to its upkeep.

The difficulty with these things is the introductory period - I've no quibble with the toll to drive along Marine Drive as it's a bloody nice drive, the cost is minimal and it's been in force as long as I can remember. But had it been free for years and someone decided to introduce one, there would be some outcry, even only a small one.

Going back to my original point of the make-up of Llandudno's visitors - I can understand why some locals might be perturbed, but if some more Indian restaurants open up because of a higher number of ethnically Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi et al visitors to the town, and those restaurants go on to pay rates etc, I can't see how that in and of itself is a bad thing. Never mind the fact they'll also be catering to demand provided by a huge chunk of ethnically white/British etc visitors. Not that it's happened yet, but likewise if someone were to open up a kosher or halal restaurant (controversial moral issues surrounding such methods of slaughter notwithstanding).

As always, I'm going to be a gonk and ask if anyone has any numbers  :P




Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #128 on: June 28, 2015, 06:54:20 PM »
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As always, I'm going to be a gonk and ask if anyone has any numbers  :P

I can't find any at all, but that doesn't surprise me. Not even sure how you'd go about compiling such figures. But data is what we need, that's for sure. We know that visitor numbers overall are up and have been growing steadily for some time. I'd also venture to suggest there might well be a lot of cancellations by holidaymakers hoping to visit Morocco, Tunisia and possibly Turkey and Egypt and they'll all be looking for somewhere to visit.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Michael

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #129 on: June 28, 2015, 07:37:15 PM »
  Not to mention Greece.
  As to charging a fee to walk on the pier. This is not unknown. I am reasonably sure the North pier in Blackpool has a charge, if only at peak times. I also have a very, very vague idea that there might have been a charge at Llandudno many years ago, and I also seem to have a feeling that you had to pay if you wanted access past the toll keeper beyond the Grand Hotel, but you could walk on for free from the entrance that took you past the arcades and the pavilion. Have I dreamt this? Or maybe told this as a child as to how things used to be? I'm not at all sure.

SteveH

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #130 on: June 28, 2015, 08:51:41 PM »
Re Jonty's Post...
" has the idea of an entrance fee to the pier ever been mooted?"

It was brought up last year in connection with the CB pier, not so much an entrance fee but a donation to ensure it would survive, don't know if that would work with a private firm, but unless piers can make a profit it might be the only way.........

"If some more Indian restaurants open up because of a higher number of ethnically Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi et al visitors to the town"

Do they actually eat in their own restaurants ? ? ....I have not seen very many in the restaurants I have visited.....
But most Asian restaurants in this country are catering to the British pallet, in saying that there is a growing trend for more specialised high end Asian eateries, which I think would be welcome here.

"I have to admit (apologies in advance to Fester!) while I have walked on the pier scores, if not hundreds, of times, I don't think I've ever bought anything from the kiosks. That said, I have made use of the arcades and the bar at the far end, plus ice creams etc, so some of my money (at least) will have gone in to its upkeep."

Same here...........Do we have to ask the question,...... Why have we not spent any money ?

SteveH

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #131 on: June 28, 2015, 09:14:47 PM »
Best and worst of the British seaside holiday

 Do minority ethnic groups ever go on seaside holidays? Some kind of unwritten apartheid still seems to apply. Still, I suppose its giving the children a lesson in social history: “So this is what Britain was like 50 years ago – old, white people drinking tea.”"

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We DON'T like to be beside the seaside: One in nine UK children has never set foot on a British beach ... and one in three has never made a sandcastle
Children are missing out on activities such as skimming stones and crabbing

The research revealed 65 per cent of the UK’s Generation Z – those born after the millennium – have never been beside the sea in Cornwall, and 68 per cent have never been to play in the sand in Devon.

One of the problems, Great Western says, is that a quarter of parents (26 per cent) now believe that overseas holidays are cheaper.
The survey showed that modern day four to 16-year-olds are missing out on traditional seaside fun.
One in three youngsters have never made a sandcastle (36 per cent) and more than half have not been crabbing (53 per cent).

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Race at the seaside: What shapes British seaside culture?     
Daniel Burdsey explains why British seaside towns are markedly less multicultural compared with other urban areas in the nation.
By: Professor Laurie Taylor (Guest), Dr Daniel Burdsey (University of Brighton

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Fester

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #132 on: June 29, 2015, 12:32:46 AM »
I have been discussing this subject with some traders and retired folk who have enlightened me as to a phenomena which is going on, concerning visitors to Llandudno.... and when I digested what I heard, it makes me think that we are BOTH right in this debate.   There are MORE visitors to Llandudno, and LESS at the same time.
Let me explain.

Hoteliers and traders with more than 30 years experience have told me that there are less weekly visitors, but more daily visitors.   The visitors themselves are coming in great numbers from the caravan sites near Towyn, Rhyl etc... but they actually LIVE FULL TIME in those caravans.   
Across the UK, due to high rents and mortgages, many caravan parks which used to cater for holidays are now purely used as accommodation for families on benefits.  The owners of these caravan parks are able to command very high rents from the DSS, and are guaranteed income all year round.
These are the folk who are travelling down to Llandudno, multiple times per week, and most likely being 'counted' multiple times... so the town SEEMS busy.
This also fits in perfectly with what I've been saying about Town being quiet in the mornings, and after 5pm.
They have left Llandudno by then, to get their bits and bobs from Aldi or Lidl, and are back in their caravans for the night.

Of course these people have no money to spend on gifts, luxuries etc... and this is exactly in line with the TYPE of people I have seen on the Pier and elsewhere.

It all makes sense now.

I was also able to talk to one of the Managers of the tramway, who has always stated that his Trams were busier than ever.
When I asked him how this was measured, he said it was 'financial turnover'
I said, 'not physical ticket numbers sold then?'

No he said,  we have never kept records of that.

So when I pointed out to him that the Tram fare had increased by over 30% since 2012, he withdrew from the discussion, somewhat embarrassed.

Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #133 on: June 29, 2015, 08:07:54 AM »
Steve: loved one sentence in the Guardian report:

"Anyway, why does the British seaside need museums? The British seaside is a museum."

Fester:

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These are the folk who are travelling down to Llandudno, multiple times per week, and most likely being 'counted' multiple times... so the town SEEMS busy.

On the SH studies they only counted numbers employed in tourist-related occupations, not actual visitors. It was considered by statisticians that employment rises in line with (spending) visitor numbers.

Once a week we drive from Llandudno to the Southerly end of the Conwy Valley at roughly 1630 and from a few weeks ago it became clear that we needed to find an alternative route to Black Cat, other than the usual A470, such were the numbers of vehicles. It's long been clear that day-visitor numbers are rising and have been for many years;  the Guardian report implies that the state of the seaside hotel is partly to blame but I'm not sure if that's true in Llandudno. It probably was, but the arrival of the big chain hotels, coupled with the performance of the Court hotels and others does suggest that hoteliers in the town are really upping their game.

Trade everywhere is down; when giants like Tesco start feeling the pinch, and even Sainsbury and Asda are counting pennies it's obvious we're still not entirely out of the woods. But quite how much of a fiscal barometer the uniquely seasidy-pier is I'm not sure.


“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Ian

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Re: The Changing Face of Llandudno
« Reply #134 on: June 29, 2015, 08:27:30 AM »
Steve: you just knew putting a survey from the DFM would draw me out, didn't you?  :rage: :rage: :rage:

They say of children

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36% have never made a sandcastle
53% have not  fished for crabs
38% have not eaten ice cream on UK beach 43% have never held a shell to their ear to
52% have never skimmed stones in the sea
12% of parents 'forgotten UK's good points'
80% have never been to Stonehenge
85% have never been to the Roman Baths
73% have never visited the Tower of London
54% haven’t been to a farm


These are the things I've never done:

1. fished for crabs. They nip.
2. eaten ice cream on UK beach. Well, did once, but the wind blew sand into the soft and almost certainly bacteria-infested slush so it became a grit-ice.
3. held a shell to their ear to 'hear the sea'. Most parents are now too concerned about radiation poisoning, heavy metal contamination, ear-piercing, auditory-invading crablets - horror-film style - leaping out and consuming their infant. Plus it's simply daft to suggest holding an echo chamber to your ear does anything other than muffle external noises.
4. never been to Stonehenge. Seen it so many times in Sci Fi serials it'd only be a disappointment, now.
5. never been to the Roman Baths in Bath. Been to some in Sussex and Chester.  The Chester ones are superb. But seen 'em once. And they wouldn't let you take a dip...
6. never visited the Tower of London.  Might have done and even tried a few times, But when the queues are two hours long, the weather either stiflingly hot or wet and windy, the prices so high and the end result almost certainly a let-down on what you'll have seen many times on TV and the movies - why bother?

Perhaps had they included more salient ideas, such as those who walk to school, or those who go for walks regularly with their parents, those who go swimming a lot, those who play tennis, cricket or other physically demanding games or even assumed that travelling on trains doesn't necessarily mean the end destination will involve a traumatic day on the beach fending off carnivorous crabs, extracting grit from a ham sandwich or recovering from a massive bout of diarrhoea after eating a soft-scoop ice cream they might have produced a more meaningful survey.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.